Back humans, tax robots.

27:34I don't see any reason to disbelieve that. And yet we're taxing employers who hire young people to pick up beer glasses in gardens and not robots. People are spending more and more money on tokens to use their services. It would take some designing. I mean, it might be that, you know, if you replace people in your business with robots, there's a surcharge, a tax. Or it might be that if you use robots, whether that's, you know, in service sector or in manufacturing, then there's an extra tax on that, rather like VAT. It would need to be some form of coupon that was charged as tax on robots. And I think that is a policy that needs proper consideration because that's the future.

28:15That's where the wealth is going to be created. And it's already been created. You know, when you see these companies being valued at over a trillion, these huge flotations, that's where the action is. So that's where the taxation should follow. Do you think there needs to be some hard truths spoken about whether it's by British businesses, by the next prime minister to the nation about what the consequences of the AI revolution is going to be? I think it's important that the new Prime Minister is super aware that these changes are happening very fast and that they have the potential to sort of pull the rug from under the government and business in terms of how we have historically operated and how we've sort of made money, really.

29:04That is James Reid, who's the chief executive of Reid Recruitment. Kim, interesting one, having to almost front up a little bit to what all this AI development means. In the construction industry, we've heard bosses tell us how some sites in the years, decades to come might have way, way fewer humans on them because of the way things are going. Are you seeing those changes? I think whenever you've got new data, you've got to take them into your business. The challenge is construction is not like a factory where it's the same over and over and over again. Every site's different. Every building's different.

29:41Every client's requirement is different. So I actually think construction is one of those industries that is going to be more resilient as far as the opportunities for future employment for all of us. But if you see some of the housing estates that are built in the UK, huge ones, I mean, just within that, if there's a thousand odd houses, they are like for like. You may not see them on site. We already use offsite construction where we properly can. And this is one of the opportunities because it's generally an opportunity to have less waste to design all of the service channels. So where the pipes and the wires go through, you can extrude and set up your panel.

30:19so it arrives on site with those holes already being there rather than having to drill them in on site. That's more efficient and it means you're putting the highly skilled people to work in an efficient way, not redoing things that could have been planned out. It goes back to really good design from day one. And we have this opportunity. So we've recently been reappointed to the DfE's pipeline, the portfolio of their framework for the next six years. So Department for Education. So that's schools effectively. And they are excellent at this. They're a demanding client, an appropriately demanding client, but everything we do there is net zero in operation.

30:56But that isn't just the energy use. We are all looking at design that means you are using off-site construction because it means you've got fewer people up ladders and in mobile platforms up in the air. You're able to try and control quality a lot better if you've got 1 ,500 of the same slab being produced elsewhere, you have to worry about the transport costs because I know oil prices are one of those things we always need to watch. So offsite is important, but there's a cost then in getting it to site and getting it safely to site down some very little narrow roads in the UK that can be a challenge.

31:31So you've got to think about it in a holistic fashion. Right. But it is certainly an issue that the tax system and the regulatory system has to confront the future, not continue doing what was done 150 years ago and pressing the same button harder, hoping that more will be produced. It'll be very interesting to see if any changes in that realm are made by the next Prime Minister, the next Chancellor, if we have another one, as the headlines on the papers again today seem to imply we might. We're going to talk more about that moving oil price. It's down at levels not seen since before the war in Iran began.

32:06So we'll have a chat about what that means, what the consequences of that might well mean for the days and weeks ahead.

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33:49Wake up to money from BBC Radio 5 Live. Thursday morning, the 25th of June. I've got Micah Curry with me, who is Vice President of Personal Finance at PensionBee. And Micah, some headlines this morning about the oil price being back at the levels it was at before the war in Iran began. So back at the end of February, I think on February the 27th, the price of a barrel of Brent crude was$72.48 a barrel and we've seen it go well above$100,$110 a barrel for much of the time in between. How significant is this latest fall that we've seen in recent days? I think it's important that we remember that more than a billion barrels of oil was stuck inside the Gulf.

34:37So we've seen this glut of oil come back onto the market. But before that, many countries needed to drain their oil reserves. So there's a bit of a short term glut coming onto the market, but whether it will feed through and whether it's going to be, if you like, a cost of living cure, that is a bigger question because it takes longer for households to see the relief. You'll see the relief at the pumps first, but it will take longer for energy bills and wider prices to respond. I think it's also important that we remember that it was about 38 or 39 times that Donald Trump said, we have a peace deal.

35:16What we have is not a peace deal. We have a memorandum of understanding. And we also know that Iran now knows that they can monetize an economic choke point. So there is a question whether this is a short-term relief or whether we'll see this conflict run on. It does seem to be on the ground, on the waters of the Strait of Hormuz, that there is much more flow of vessels out of that Strait of Hormuz now. Aside from the words that we've heard so much in the last few months where people have been waiting to see the reality, it does now seem that for however long it might be that there is that opening up.

35:59There is the opening up and we see the crude that has been trapped on tankers inside the Gulf moving through. Once this happens, I suspect that oil prices will probably stabilise at a higher point, somewhere between$80 and$90 a barrel. So always worth waiting, as we've definitely learned in recent months. As I look at the chart, Kim Sides is with us this morning, construction boss, executive director at BAM UK and Ireland. And when I just look at the oil price chart, you can almost see the straight lines down and the straight lines back up, Kim, as there have been words and then consequences in the Middle East in recent times.

36:39But in the construction industry, in terms of oil price costs, does it change your Muda perspective when we're sitting here this morning talking about oil being around$72 a barrel instead of$100 a barrel? Anything that settles things down is always good news for us and it's always confidence in the market because we have private clients we work for that are much more exposed to the markets. But again, you're looking at a very narrow scale. Zoom out. Let's look at it over five years. Let's look at it over 10 years. It's the trend that you make business decisions on. I can't control oil prices. I can't control geopolitical events.

37:14I can only control and try and set the organisation up to deal with what is thrown at us. On that, because as Micah mentioned there, given the fact that something longer term now has changed in that Strait of Hormuz, we didn't really talk before about what Iran and the power it might have over that shipping passageway it might have. But whatever is happening right now, does that change longer term? We will be affected, but that is part of the reason why it feeds into the broader sustainability strategy of trying to move away from virgin fuels. Not only because it's the right thing to do for the planet, but because, again, you're handing control to other people over important inputs into your business.

37:54So we've moved as far as we possibly can to electric vehicles, including onsites, so that you're using less of these virgin materials that are exposed to those aspects. We have had some experience from the war in Ukraine taught us a very strong lesson in the same way that the big lesson out of COVID was about controlling your supply chains and not having them too long, where you've got a contract and then a subcontract and then a subcontract and a subcontract. and you're really handing control to someone you really don't even know, may not have vetted. Bringing that sustainable aspect of controlling energy where you reasonably can and having a balance.

38:35We use HVO to power relevant vehicles, so a hydrogenated vegetable oil. So reused vegetable oils can be used. It's not a long-term substitute, but in the same way that gas has been part of transitioning to a green grid away from oil, Many might hear you say this, Kim, sorry to interrupt you, and think, well, hang on, this debate about the North Sea and whether we should be tapping into that more. They might hear what you're saying there and think, well, yeah, that's exactly the reason we should be tapping into the more local. And I'm not an expert in it, but certainly we, a lot of our sustainability strategy is on having as much of a local supply chain.

39:13We use British steel when we can, even before you get into tariffs and such that are just coming into play. It's part of our sustainability strategy is the local supply chain. It's a lot of the social value we supply. I don't think we're ever going to get rid of entirely of oil because you need energy security. So it is part of the balance, just like nuclear is. We do some work through the infrastructure business in that space to make sure that you've got a resilient market where there's an ability for all of us to plan for longer term because these are major industries. Construction is a major industry.

39:50for people going to work, but also it builds the homes and the schools. And we particularly do education, schools, hospitals that are critical. And you need a long term view on where the energy is going to come to drive our part of the economy. And Micah, when people, I know you were sort of being a bit cautious about the drops that we've seen and think it might sort of settle a little bit higher or things staying the same. But when people hear and are told, well, this is going to take a while for the benefits of a lower oil price to filter through, often the reaction is, well, hang on, it didn't seem to take a while when the prices were going up very quickly.

40:30Is there a difference, Maika? I think we need to take into perspective that this is really the third supply shock we've had in the last few years. So we had that shock to prices and inflation in 2011 off the back of COVID. Then we had something similar or different, but again, a supply shock in 2022 with a war in Ukraine. And now we've got our third supply shock. So there's a lot of inflation in the system. And we as households are far more sensitive to it. So the financial conditions are really pushing against us for now. And we all know that, yes, a memorandum of understanding has been spoken about to the point that the US has now lifted sanctions on Iran for the first time in decades, which will end up making Iran richer.

41:21But this conflict isn't over and there's still a lot of inflation in the system. 85058, your thoughts on what you're hearing about oil prices? somebody's been in touch, Micah, on robots, as we're hearing from the boss of Reid Recruitment before talking about who needs to tax robots, and somebody's been in touch. Fortunately, when there's a message that, I'm not quite too sure what it's about, I'll do a little bit of searching before I read it out. And Steve, I know you were trying to catch me out here. He says, South Africa has been using robots to control traffic for many decades. Ask your guest, he says, Micah.

41:56Can you explain what Steve is on about? You know that, Aldo. And so as South Africans, we don't talk about traffic lights. We talk about robots. So that is what you refer to as robots in South Africa. Yes, that's right. Thank you for that, Steve. 85050, you want to catch me out in any kind of way. I will always try to avoid it. John being in touch today, morning, Sean, how long before the pump prices come down to the same level as before the war? Well, we will be asking your questions to many in those industries, John, in the coming hours and days. You see, Donald Trump has been having a go at some of the oil giants this morning about the levels of prices and whether that is being felt by those further down, those supply chains like those buying petrol and diesel, for example.

42:46So we'll see if there's a fall in that respect. Now, temperatures. Let us know how you're coping with the higher temperatures this week, what your plans are for the coming days. So just under 40 degrees Celsius in some parts of the country today, the Trade Union Congress, which is a federation of trade unions for workers in England and Wales, is calling for a legally mandated maximum temperature at work. Sam Gurney is the TUC's regional secretary for London and the South East. He spoke with Wake Up To Manage Josh Korba Hoffman yesterday. For quite a long time now, we've been calling for a maximum heat limit at work, a maximum temperature.

43:23There is a minimum temperature legally codified at the moment. But in the UK, unlike lots of other European countries, we don't have a maximum temperature in the workplace. And obviously, sadly, given the increasing impact on climate change and the number of these kind of heat incidents we're having, we think it's even more important at the moment that we get that codified and put in place so that employers and employees know where they stand. The maximum temperature we are calling for is 30 degrees, but we think employers, once the temperature goes above 24 degrees indoors, should be looking at a variety of things that they can do.

43:56There's some very simple things. There's looking at flexible working. So while we've got things like the travel alerts in place, helping people to work at home where that's possible, relaxing dress codes where those actually still exist in the workplace, providing fans and other cooling mechanisms in the buildings in the kind of short term, making sure people have got access to water and hydration. And in the longer term, there's a whole set of stuff I think we need to be looking at to make our workplaces resilient for the future. And so that includes proper work, properly funded work on retrofitting our workplaces, just like we need to retrofit our houses.

44:31So the government have committed to this. Part of their review of workplace rights, they've tasked for HSE to do it. we just need it to happen quickly. All workers under the Health and Safety Protection have a right to say if they think things are too dangerous to work. So, you know, that's not something that you exercise easily. But Section 44 of the Employment Rights Act from 1996 covers the right of workers to say they're not going to work if they think something is immediately dangerous or a threat to them. So we've seen people starting to look at whether that can be used. It's not my advice to use that, but it's a possibility.

45:06And finally, Sam, are you one of those rare advocates for the hydration breaks in the World Cup? I absolutely think that they are needed when the temperature goes above a certain limit. I am very opposed to them happening in some of the games where the temperature clearly hasn't gone above that limit. I am not in favour of the glorious game becoming a game of quarters in the long term. Definitely not. Thank you to Josh Corbhoffman and Sam Gerdy, who's talking to you there, the TUC's Regional Secretary for London and the South East, It's interesting having to take into account those hydration breaks, talking point of the last few weeks.

45:39Do you need them in your workplace? Kim, on construction sites, where clearly your workers who are on those sites are probably the fastest exposed to high heats during the day. Do you have thresholds? It is one of so many risks that we manage. So there's a number of things I agree with in that interview because the longer-term issue about rebuilding, we don't do residential, but certainly we spend a lot of time on retrofitting for clients as part of it is all of that climate resilience. And I think it's important to scan out from being too hot, too cold. No, you're talking about it being a resilient building that will be fit for what people are going to be doing in them for the long term.

46:21Of course, but on construction sites. On construction sites. On construction sites. On construction sites. On construction sites themselves. I'm not big on mandating. It's much more we have expert teams that will discuss the risks of the day, and this is an obvious one that people are talking about, just like we've been talking about the risk of people coming to work drunk or tired after watching a match later on the World Cup. So you wouldn't have a, right, it's 35 degrees on that site. We certainly will leave it and the judgment will have been made on the site in the relevant circumstance. But there has been a trend already for flexible work in lots of ways.

46:54And this is still an assumption that everybody on a construction site is out in the sun all day, hefting heavy things. I was going to ask, do you change the timings? We don't need to mandate it. People are already trending to wanting. We've got a number of people who prefer now on sites to start early and finish by 2.33. And that's easier for deliveries. It's easier for traffic. And that works very well because if you're looking longer term, and one of the things I was at last week, was the Construction Leadership Council launch of the Joint Code of Practice for mental health for construction.

47:28It's an industry issue and I'd like to talk about it again with you sometime. But if you're talking about flexible working, it makes it work on a site for those people to come in earlier, easier for traffic, easier for them to get materials to site, do their work and go home. And temperatures as well this time of year. Exactly. So it feeds into that. But it also means, this is something that is common in Australia, where it may well be the person that works on site takes that. And they're the ones that are then home to collect the kids in the evening. And their spouse might be a nurse who works an afternoon shift.

48:02Do you see more of that with the heat, though? I'm talking about the heat specifically. Would there be now this time of year more people starting work earlier? There would be and there would be a discussion. But there will also be other people who will have chosen to work later. because our site sheds are as comfortable as our offices. They're fully air conditioned. They've got proper shower facilities. You can get changed, but it may well be that some people want to work later because they want to go and visit their elderly parents or their neighbours in the morning, check that they're set up for the day and are cool and for them to come in later.

48:36We trust our managers to have those discussions with their supply chain, with their staff, with the client, to make sure that everybody is able to do this work sustainably. Really interesting. So if you see stuff going on on construction sites outside, maybe typical hours, that is some of the trends that are pushing that in that direction. It's always interesting to hear how workplaces are changing. 85058, if they have for you. What about when you go for your coffee in the morning? Are your habits changing as the temperatures continue to climb? Ice coffee, of course, one thing people might well be looking to, to stay cool in the heat.

49:13just maybe can't handle that hotter Americano every morning. Wake Up to Money's Olivia Hutchinson's been taking a look at how some of the big chains have been faring. We've now had the hottest June day on record, so it's not surprising more and more of us are adding ice to our coffees. British coffeehouse chain Black Sheep Coffee have told us that nearly two in every three drinks being sold during this latest heatwave were iced up from roughly one in two the week before. The iced latte was their number one selling product, overtaking the traditional hot one for the first time this year. Costa Coffee, meanwhile, sold five iced drinks every second during last month's heatwave.

50:00And Pret said it also saw strong sales across its iced drinks range, with iced lattes topping the list yet again. Olivia, thank you for that. Some fascinating fresh numbers there from some of the big chains around the country. Let's speak to Will McIntosh, who's the operations director at the 92 Degrees Group. He's got 23 coffee shops, mainly across the north of England and Scotland. Will, good morning to you. Good morning. Are you seeing more iced coffee orders as the heat gets higher? Yeah, definitely. I think very similar to cans of black sheep. If we look at the last couple of days, it's definitely been kind of two and three.

50:37drinks sold have been ice drinks, I think. Beyond that, now iced coffee isn't perhaps something that is just prevalent on hot days anymore. I think it is now a year-round category, particularly among younger consumers. A lot of our sites are very close to universities, and in those sites you see that kind of uptake in iced coffee, that iced coffee participation, remaining very high all year-round, really. Do you have any kind of supply issues at this point in a week like this where even the likes of myself who would never really think about going iced for my coffee might be persuaded as I need the caffeine hit and it's above 30 degrees?

51:22to be honest with you not not really we we work really closely with our store leaders to ensure that um our supply chain is strong and our our teams are set up and ready um to be able to to maximize on that demand for iced coffee um so now we we work with some like really good wholesale partners to make sure that we've got ice available consistently um and is it shipped in or do you have ice machines yourself? Both really so as I say we have some really strong wholesale suppliers who will be able to get ice to us at kind of a moment's notice and then we have some of our larger sites with ice machines pre-installed already.

52:05And what's the ice drink of choice for 2026 which one has really taken off? I think the ice latte is the drink of choice I I think it works so well and gives customers that kind of customization really easy to be want. I think people are looking for an option that they can really kind of put their own spin on. So it works really well with syrups, different milks, and looks great on Instagram as well. Obviously, there is ice match here if we look beyond coffee, which continues to form extremely strongly and has the same kinds of benefits, really. and then I think a big trend that we're seeing across the industry this year is the introduction of cold brew and Just explain that one So that is basically a slower brewed coffee that baristas will have behind the bar like a

53:07extract like a Like a draft pump as well is that how it's often served? Yeah exactly So today we'll put some coffee into the bottom of a cup, ice, and top it with water. What we're seeing with that is the introduction of cold foams, different flavours of cold foams. Again, it makes for a really cool looking drink that looks great on Instagram. So it looks good on the pictures. Final question, Will. Do people drink colder drinks faster than the hotter drinks? Are you selling more of them because we neck them quicker? Potentially, yeah. Potentially, I think. I was in one of our sites yesterday and there was only myself drinking hot coffee at the time I was surrounded by people that were sat drinking a colder brew and you definitely see them going up and down to the bar a lot more Interesting.

53:57Will, fascinating. Good luck this week in the busy times Will McIntosh from 92 Degrees Group there. Kim, great to talk to you Keeping cool. We've had many thanks for your Aussie tips on the messages this morning. Good to talk to you, Mike. Well done, South Africa, once again. That is it from Wake Up To Money. Thank you to everybody who's been in touch. Wake Up To Money from BBC Five Live. That's it from Wake Up To Money. You can download the podcast every Monday to Friday, so please make sure you subscribe. We'd also love it if you left us a review when you do. Get in touch. Keep the conversation going any time as well on social media.

54:37Use the hashtag, wake up to money.

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