Fifa fury

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1:12Hello, welcome. It is Wake Up To Money. We're going to be hearing the reaction to FIFA boss Gianni Infantino, who has responded to criticism of his proposals to sell off stakes in the World Cup from across the football world. It is just an offer, not an obligation. We're going to hear from the former head of global sponsorships at Coca-Cola and Visa on how global brands might be reacting to this. As Andy Burnham says he wants apprenticeships and work experience placements to play a greater role in the awarding of government contracts. We're going to hear from a defence business on whether his aspirations are realistic.

1:51And the brewers of Estrella Lager have taken a stake in an East London soda company. So we'll hear how its founder went from taking a payday loan to attracting investment from a global brand. Wake Up To Money with Sean Farrington. Good morning to you. Wake Up To Money on BBC Five Live on this Thursday morning, the 30th of July. Hope you are well. Hope you aren't too parched this morning. Headlines of certain parts of the country being a little bit cooler in the coming days. There's other pictures galore on the front pages of the papers of the drought that so much of England in particular has been experiencing.

2:32Some stark pictures of the great parks of London with the skyscrapers in the background. And the great parks are pretty yellow. That is not a good sight. Many will be waiting for water to be on their way. Stories in the Telegraph today about how supermarkets are concerned, how food supplies might be more widely threatened by the wider wildfire issue that has been had not just across the UK, of course, but right across Europe very seriously in recent days as well. So much to discuss there. Your thoughts, 85058, on how you are now dealing with the latest part of this weather period that we're going through and what needs to be done.

3:19Are you starting to make plans for the future? There's a story on the BBC website this morning from our environment colleagues and climate and science colleagues about how the UK's extreme heat is shifting the conversation about aircon. It feels like it's been one of those summers where it has maybe focused minds in a bit of a different way, despite the years and years of talking about the impact of climate change. Many are starting to have a think about how it might impact their lives going forward. Now, Emily McCorkill is with us this morning, owner of Low and Slow BBQ Food Truck Cooking School, based in Londonderry in Northern Ireland, of course.

3:59Emily, very good morning to you. Good morning, Colin. How are you? I am good. Thank you, Emily. Did any of that, I mean, I've listed a fair old few topics there linked to the heat. Did any of that ring true to you at all this summer or over a lifetime? time yeah i mean yeah i definitely it's there's been we've had a bit of a heat we've here in northern ireland um fortunately we're back to gray skies and rain which i think no one has ever said those uh fortunate and rain in the same sentence in ireland um but yeah i lived in california um just before moving here and definitely um had an experience with wildfires they're very scary um it's really terrifying just how quick things can change um even just the direction of the wind and how it can threaten so much um so i'm definitely feeling for the people who are going through that right now and how long did you live in california for emily uh for a good two and a half years so there's definitely a wildfire season we just have to be really careful um even things like you know driving down the freeway um knowing that you know i might not get home that evening if the fires jump the freeway so it's scary for sure yeah and and if If it does become sort of a regular part of life, that there's a season, as people will see it, in California where this stuff happens, do you see differences in how people were behaving around the awareness of a season in California compared to perhaps how in recent years, and I know we were talking yesterday about wildfires in France of four years ago and the lessons learned from there.

5:35So it's not like these are completely brand new, but perhaps the escalation of what's been happening around Europe. Do you see, you know, almost like people being on different timelines in California and in Europe? Yes and no. This is where I'm giving away my age. I moved here 20 years ago, so the climate change talk wasn't as big of a feature. It was more of, you know, when you go out, don't barbecue in the woods, you know, or just be careful of your surroundings, no smoking outside if you're hiking. You know, it was more of that conversation, But it never really then hit to, well, we've got eight-lane freeways here and the pollution that's affecting the climate.

6:14And maybe that's why things are changing so much globally. It was much more isolated, much more individual-centered. So I think there's definitely some learnings that have come on because the wildfires now are popping up in places where they weren't necessarily a problem before. Now they're consistent. Even in Ireland, there's gorse fires here that have been raging out of control. so it's definitely I think caused people to think a little bit more about well what's what's the why behind this what's happening and you know do we have a part to play in the wider climate change story so I think there's some good that has to come out of this I think that's a I'm an eternal optimist I'm always going to believe that humanity is going to look to do the right thing but I think it's definitely widening the conversation about what how can we help even from afar, what can we do to better climate teams to have a more responsible look on things and really take responsibility for ourselves.

7:09Got Geoffrey Yu with us as well this morning, Senior Market Strategist at BNY. Geoff, morning to you. Good morning. Do you see any of that joining of the dots, to put it that way, Geoff, of how people are and investors and businesses are changing their habits more broadly because of events like this. So are people thinking, OK, this is going to be a longer term, seasonal thing that we're going to go through? It's going to threaten supply chains into the future. And so people change the way they behave and where they put their money. So I think from a conversational point of view, it really is starting to pick up.

7:53But are the dots joined yet for a comprehensive plan? I think that's still a work in progress. If you look at government responses, is there enough grid construction going on to support future demand? If every household were to have an air conditioning unit, for example, and how about within companies? I remember the founding father of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, said having air con in offices was one of the biggest productivity boosters. So to maintain productivity in a country where we've had a productivity gap for a while, is that something to push forward as well? So more conversations, but more joined up thinking definitely is needed.

8:32Yeah, interesting. Emily, is that anything? I don't know if you have air con where you are, if you wish at times you did have air con. I know you've said it was a rare heat wave that you had in Northern Ireland, but does it make you think even just for those moments to get something like that? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely one of the things you think, you know, it would be great. My husband specifically just can't cope without it. He's got a fan on the room, I think, all day, every day around the year. But it is one of those things, too, where I think, you know, what effect is that? What carbon footprint is that having?

9:06and there's got to be better ways for us to keep cool, you know, without sacrificing the planet. Well, that's what people are sort of trying to figure out and not just massively increase their energy costs as well. And Jeff, as well, this piece in The Telegraph today, food supplies threatened by wildfires, warn supermarkets. So the chief executives of Tesco, Waitrose, Sainsbury's, Aldi, the co-op, have written to the prime minister calling for urgent action to protect food security, lessen Britain's dependence on imports. and they've been highlighting wildfires and extreme weather, putting Britain's food supplies at risk.

9:42So I guess that's an example of businesses wanting to focus in different ways but maybe feeling like they haven't got the system in place to do that. Yes, and this is something that really has been brewing for a while and it's not just in terms of fires. We've had fertiliser concerns, for example, due to the conflict in the Gulf. So that's something from a national level, diversifying supply chains. It's not necessarily in terms when we talk about resilience, that is the key word. It's not necessarily means they're just homegrown. We have, of course, normal constraints regarding that. But making sure that your food sources and any input sources, to be frank, is as diversified as possible.

10:27You have substitutes almost immediately. That really requires a national effort. Yeah, Ken Murphy, the Tesco chief executive, has been writing in The Telegraph today. He says recent years have brought extreme weather across Europe and the UK, from wildfires and droughts to exceptionally wet winters, unusually dry springs, disrupting harvests, supply chains, domestic food production. Then you combine that with pressure on household budgets. They reinforce the need for a food system that is both resilient, using that word, and capable of delivering healthy diets as well is part of that. Emily, do you notice that you've got a food business yourself, cooking school as well, the questions about where we get our food and has it been getting tougher in recent times?

11:09Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think one of the kind of personal projects that I've been working on in the background is also pushing for more clarity on food labeling. So, you know, the difference of labeling between a food product and food for consumer awareness. So, yeah, definitely where food's coming from, how processed is it? Is this healthy? Is it sustainable? For sure. It's been a huge growing concern here. 85058, your thoughts? Is there a way that we haven't yet mentioned on Wake Up To Money that the weather has been impacting your business, your day at work, your prospects, whatever that might be?

11:47Do let us know, 85058. Even how's your garden looking at the moment and what are your plans for that? We'll take all your angles on this on Wake Up To Money. It's quarter past five now. The FIFA World Cup saga rumbles on. Today, UEFA officials, so those from the European governing body, from 55 countries are set to hold an emergency meeting. They're going to have a look at how to respond to these plans from FIFA, or from Gianni Infantino, the FIFA president, who plans to sell a stake in a new commercial entity to run the World Cup and other competitions. We've got former FA chairman David Bernstein, who's been criticising the proposals.

12:28He was speaking on Radio 4's World at One yesterday. If we really mean this and we want to try and save FIFA and world football from this dreadful situation, then we have to have the guts to really follow it through. So we have to withdraw from the World Cup. We'd have to be a separate European competition or something. The FA have to back that. And we have to walk the walk. I'm going to bring in Riccardo Fort, who's a former head of global sponsorships at Coca-Cola and Visa with experience working on World Cup deals since 2002. who is now sponsorship strategy advisor to global brands. Riccardo, good morning to you.

13:06Good morning. Just firstly, your reaction to what the former FA chairman was saying there, the way that the conversation will be heading, the direction will be heading for many about, you know, there needs to be serious thought to a boycott of any developments in the way that Gianni Infantino wants this to go. What's your thinking when you start, as somebody so experienced in the world of sponsorship, you start to see quite loud calls from very, very powerful players saying maybe we should boycott this? But this is obviously a concern for sponsors. This is not something that they are interested in seeing in the future of the World Cup.

13:51They didn't sign up for a sponsorship to live in a world where not all the teams, all the most important teams in the world, the nations in the world, are participating in the competition. So for them, this is a potential very difficult situation. Is that one of the almost few examples that would make a sponsor act drastically? because for all the controversies that can go on in the world of sport, it's not so often, is it, that you see sponsors step away from major events? It's very rare that sponsors will step away from global events. The sponsors are rarely involved in the administration of sports.

14:40They are not invited to these conversations. They are watching from the sidelines, the conversations, the public discussions, debate between FIFA and federations and confederations. But they are paying a lot of attention because if something happens to the World Cup and the World Cup in the future might not be exactly what they signed up for, that will be a lot of consequences for their companies, for their businesses. And for now, they are just watching. But in case something materialises, then they might take action. Are there things short of a boycott? Are there other developments? I'm trying to picture what a World Cup could look like that didn't necessarily have a boycott from major players, but that would mean that those are the types of the former businesses that you were at, the likes of Coca-Cola and Visa, where they would be questioning whether they wanted to be aligned with it.

15:40There are very few things can impact their interest. The structure of the World Cup, if it changes dramatically, so let's say just hypothetically, if many of the countries decide not to participate, that is a material change. And so they might take action. They might not be interested in being part of it. And by the way, we're talking about some of the brands. Some other brands will still be around no matter the number of teams playing. But Western brands, American brands in general, they are interested in having a product, and I'm calling the workup a product, that is global by nature. And the workup without Europe, it doesn't fit this bill.

16:23So it's not going to be global. So it's going to be different from what they purchased. So I think that is one of the reasons for them to act. The other one is if there are any, I'd say, reputational issues for them, if the conversations become so loud and so much and so intense to the point that it might affect their own reputation, company reputation, then this is another area of concern. So they will be tracking that as well. Is there evidence of that in the past? Are there examples of where you may have seen big brands step away because of reputational concerns? Not with FIFA. Even in 2015, when FIFA had that major corruption crisis and officials were arrested, no brand left their sponsorship partner's portfolio.

17:20So they waited, they followed closely what was happening, the developments, and at the end they decided to stay. So it really needs to be something exceptional for them to walk away because the FIFA World Cup is such a precious, such a valuable partnership for all of them that unless something massive changes, there is no reason for them to walk. We can hear a little bit more now from the FIFA president Gianni Infantino when he was responding to criticism by saying his proposal is far from a done deal. It is a golden opportunity to turbo-charge the development of the game globally. But again, it is just an offer, not an obligation.

18:10And we are having the fiduciary duty to do so, and we are here to discuss it with everyone. So Infantino saying the idea was now out for consultation, although National Football Associations do have a deadline until mid-September to decide on the proposal. Riccardo, I'm going to flip this now the other way because it's not necessarily the right assumption to be making that sponsors might be concerned with how this goes. Could it be as well that major sponsors might be thinking some formalisation of a commercial entity to run these World Cups and other competitions? We're hearing about the potential money involved.

18:51It could be a much stronger proposition financially for our brands if this actually happened. Well, potentially. Again, it's a future that we don't know exactly where all these cards will fall and the structure of what it's going to be. but a professional administration independent from the governance of football might be a good solution as well. So the brands are looking, as I said, the brands are looking at all of these developments from the sidelines and waiting to understand what the consequences are going to be before they express any opinions because it's really unknown. They are currently discussing a new structure, a hypothetical structure, a hypothetical governance.

19:43So it's really hard for anyone to express opinions. And I guess, you know, the Men's World Cup is being on a different sort of stratosphere to almost every other sporting event apart from the Olympics. And we saw that again in the last couple of months. But there have been examples elsewhere where there has been major investment in sporting competitions, not just the clubs involved themselves. Where we've seen it a bit with rugby here in the UK and there's actually been more widely around the world as well, rugby tournaments. Formula One as well just reminds me of another topic that we've talked about over the years about investment and who actually owns the sporting event that might be Formula One.

20:35Do you see when those sporting events get investment in from elsewhere and have that even more of a commercial involvement? Does that work out better for brands in the long run? Well, there are good examples and bad examples of investments. I mean, we see plenty of cases where very wealthy individuals or funds acquire football clubs and the administration is not exactly what they were promising. The ones that you gave are really successful. I mean, the development of Formula One in the last several years has been incredible because of the new administration, because of the new strategies and money they brought to Formula One.

21:20So, you know, if all the factors that are required for success, good administration, you know, the quality of the people, the processes and how they engage with media, how they engage with sponsors, if all of that works well, and the success is almost always there. But that's not a guarantee. There are plenty of examples of unsuccessful external to the world of sport investments that fail. Somebody's just been in touch, Ricardo, saying football is just showing how the world is going. Americanization. Does it look like that to you? No, I mean, there has been a lot of criticism, you know, external criticism on how the World Cup was run.

22:07But the reality is the American professional sports world, it is very unique. And I think that if you're hosting an event in the United States, you have to cater to the local audience because the vast majority of the fans are in the United States. So I think that FIFA specifically in the past, they have done similar things trying to adapt to the host country for the World Cup. Now, when we say Americanization of sports, there are great things about Americanization of sports. I mean, the way they turn that into a spectacle, the way they manage this and they try to extract value and improve the quality of the events.

22:55So all of that are good things in the way Americans manage sports. Now, there are potential consequences if you're looking from the standpoint of other sports that are very much relying on tradition, on history, on heritage, and football is one of them, that you have to be careful to balance how much heritage and history you put side by side with innovation and, you know, let's call it the turning that into an entertainment event. Yes, and some people have been getting in touch about the comments from our own Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, who has been talking about, in recent days, reacting to this about football being for the fans and the World Cup shouldn't be owned by anybody.

23:48Nigel Inglostich says if Andy Burnham is going to make a success of his premiership, he needs to focus on the key issues affecting the country. Getting involved in details of the World Cup four years ago is not a priority. Geoff, Geoff Hughes with us from Senior Market Strategist at BMY. Geoff, does the investment world, you know, I mentioned a few examples there and Ricardo was saying, you know, there's examples out there where it hasn't worked. Does the investment world want to get involved in more big sporting events? Is it licking its lips at the prospect at something like this? Well, if we go back to the conversations regarding the ESL, back in the day, some participants ultimately did feel that there was some social pressure coming through.

24:31As a Super League. Yes, yes, sorry, you're in Super League. So football is considered a public good, and who exactly creates the value? It's not just from the national organizations. So you've got the clubs creating the players, and also fans will say they're part of the product as well, right? So what would football look like without fans? So I think that's where treading carefully, I think it will be a part of the process. But ultimately, commercial operations and commercial opportunities, that will always factor into any firm's thinking. 85058, keep your messages coming about the World Cup.

25:05That conversation is not going to go away for a little bit, it seems, certainly until mid-September when there's that deadline. And we'll be seeing how many countries around the world or federations of those countries will be signing up to Gianni Infantino's plans. How many won't be? What will happen with the likes of the Football Association in England as making that interview with David Bernstein on Radio 4 yesterday, making front-page headlines today. Riccardo, thanks so much for your time this morning. Really interesting to hear how the sponsorship world might react to this and what it takes for them to react as well.

25:41Ricardo Fort, their former head of global sponsorships at Coca-Cola and Visa. Emily McCorkle, owner of Low and Slow Food Business in Derry, with us this morning. Wanted to ask you about Greggs, which is making a fair few headlines this morning, Emily. It's interesting because, you know, one way or another, it's maybe had a bit of a tougher time over the last year or so. But Greggs has been talking about moving towards healthier products. Of course, most businesses would be telling us they want that. And trending drinks seems to have helped it boost sales as well. So it's reported a 20 % rise in profits in the first half of the year.

26:20And high-protein salads, matcha in its drinks, all of this seeming to work for Greg's at the moment. Yeah, I mean, I think health is definitely on trend. I'd be interested to know kind of maybe the macro breakdown of what they're deeming healthy. But I think... And explain what you mean by that, because when I say a lot of businesses say, you know, healthier products, how do you, what would you in the food industry sort of question around that? Well, I mean, when it comes to labeling, a lot of stuff can be really open to interpretation. So there's very few rules and regulations around what can be labeled as a health product.

27:06So for instance, you know, Gregg's could come out with a salad and it could say, you know, boost immunity. It doesn't need to say exactly how it does that, but it's allowed to say that. And that can be a health claim that it's allowed to make that's kind of unverified. So there's a lot of consumer confusion, I think, around what labeling for health foods. So I think as well, when it comes to processed foods and a lot of, and Gregg's is not being made in-house. We'll just be clear with that right there. it's all being made from factories and shipped out um if you walk into any gregs it's just like starbucks you'll get the same food same product same you know everything because it is mass produced and when things are mass produced it's really hard to control that nutrient density as well as then your caloric um numbers so you're looking at how healthy is this for you are there hidden calories inside of here um you know what what exactly are you putting in your body people aren't reading fine print it's grab and go but i guess emily alongside you know some some of the sort of small prints that gregs might not necessarily be using but people will be so familiar with some of those terms across you know the supermarket shelves and all of that when if just merely the fact that they might be selling more salads than they were before compared to the sausage rolls they were selling before you sort of don't necessarily need a intricate science degree there to see that that is a healthier trend and a healthier product that people might be picking up and and gregs might actually be selling more of now well for sure i mean there's definitely going to be a lot more fiber in a salad than there is in a sausage roll but it really also depends on this is where things get hidden and this is where i'm talking about your macro calories if there's dressings on salads you can actually choose a salad at a restaurant or a takeaway place think that you're eating healthy but there's more calories than bad calories because of a fatty dressing um or surely a salad is better than something you know that uh has been you know like i i know i'm no expert in these things believe me but i i would i would like i i just i do wonder sometimes with the conversation that we have you know around food is there a danger in in overthinking it if you're glancing at a menu and thinking you know getting to the point of thinking could this salad be more unhealthy than something else um i think there's always a chance for overthinking for sure but um i think this is where it comes back down to transparency um there was a while where menus were putting out their calories and stuff and that's kind of off-putting i think too when you're eating but for people who are genuinely trying to lose weight in a more sustainable way and there's the rise of manjaro and all those weight loss methods that people are using now so people are very much more conscious about what they're putting in their body and how they're eating so i think it has to be hand in glove you can't just offer salads i think there needs to be a bit of transparency about what's actually in the salad and this is going to truly be a healthy option for me and never mind the uh the calories and the salt intake and all that jeff has a much closer look at the the margins on this stuff and the profits and the sales levels and how many people are turning up at Greggs or not.

30:19And Geoff, we're making a few assumptions about what your focus might be with Greggs here, but does this seem to be the positive story? I wouldn't quite go as far as turnaround, but the more positive story for Greggs than it has been for a bit? Well, I think so, but I'm looking at, in one word, inflation, cost of living. How has the price of a sausage roll, which I've indulged in many times in the past, how has that been increasing? because this goes back to your forward margins. How can you maintain those margins where people are stressed about cost of living? And I think it's gone up by well above inflation over the last 10 years or so.

30:54I think 59 % or something is the accepted figure. We're up to£1.35 and higher in some other places. Now, at some point, people will notice. It's one of those staple fees like in the US, you look at a Big Mac, you know how much that's going to cost you. And then you benchmark that against your wage growth. and people will change their spending habits as a result. So this is something I think all retailers, be it food or otherwise, they have to be cognizant of. So I actually use that as a benchmark of sort of where wage growth should be if your wage growth can keep up with something as basic as a Greg sausage roll.

31:30I like the idea of you having a sausage roll index for regions around the UK, Jeff, just like The Economist has its Big Mac index. You could maybe tell, because I guess it's the kind of thing that is a good bellwether. for different regions of the UK, how much people are paying, not just a place like Greg's, but it's one of the most commonly bought things on the high street, I guess. Yeah, it really is. And maybe that should be used as a benchmark for a regional wage growth. And of course, with an individual country, sometimes it's not feasible to have separate bands of pricing. But I think companies are a lot more dynamic.