Grape Expectations

26:48So it's interesting, clearly trying to contribute towards the budget debate because they're in opposition now and so not able to enact the policies, but saying what they would do. The Conservatives getting a fair few headlines this morning, Gary, where it can be made knock for a look at the Times. You can read the copy on BBC website as well. Well, Tories cut benefits for long-term unemployed. So long-term unemployed would have benefits cut, be unable to spend the money on alcohol, cigarettes or betting. Under Tory plans to stop joblessness being a lifestyle choice for those who can't be bothered, is the quote from the Conservatives there.

27:24What's your reaction there? Again, it's all messaging, isn't it? It's just trying to get headlines. But this has been, to me, this all started in 2006 onwards. And under the Conservatives, we saw a follow-on from under the Blair government you know talking to staff again um listening how they were talking how they were feeling how they were thinking so i think yeah for me it's across all government spending we've got to get a really tight grip on this and maybe bring in some expertise because i don't look at that anybody in this cabinet or previous cabinets has got any business expertise we had sir jim radcliffe speaking yesterday um they have three factories local to all those in hull 4 000 jobs there So really they need to be speaking to these people.

28:08Like Steve, he came from Winssey, again, the town 30 minutes from where we are now in Bridlington. And if I was in government, I'd be getting people like this in. Look at, identify your own weaknesses and then bring in people to fill those weaknesses. And clearly, I don't think anybody in this government or the previous government had any understanding of running a business, running a country, running, keeping a rein on finances. Shanti Calliman is with us this morning. in front of the Financial Times this morning, intriguingly is reporting that the Chancellor, John Healy, might, the headline goes, Healy weighs smaller fiscal headroom to reduce tax rises.

28:49So it might be that this headroom, this sort of wriggle room for chancellors who like to sort of be within their own borrowing rules and how tight they are to the borrowing rules is something that's often discussed. And so in recent years, we've talked about how they've tried to leave a bit of headroom for events in the future that might send it in the wrong direction. But he might have a smaller amount of headroom. And in the reporting, Shanti, it says that investors actually might not be too concerned by that. Is that right? Well, if you read that article, it sounds like the FT called like 14, 15 investors and said, what do you think?

29:28And I think that little majority, that poll got a majority, but there is room for it to drop a bit and that headroom exists for stuff like Iran and costs going up. I suspect they will do very little in the budget. And I think the positive thing is we haven't had loads of, we're starting to get a load. We haven't had loads of rumors and kind of gimmicky policies going out. I think it's all been very tightly controlled because you don't want people to panic and you know, make decisions based on speculation. I think people underestimate the UK. So if you look at household finances, you know, since like 2022, we have the oil, you know, the gas and energy prices, households are saving more, household debt has gone down, retail purchases is going up, I think it was just last week, up half a percent.

30:23So I think there is a little bit more resilience than people think but i completely agree we should have more people in government that have experience running businesses and that understand the externalities of policies because if you change a tax rate change a policy it's it's often not that specific thing it's the other second third order impacts and how you change incentives and that's where we've kind of fallen down in the last few years is understanding how all that reverberates through 85058 join in the chat whether it's about this whether it's about protein whether it's about artificial intelligence some big headlines being made in australia this morning that's having a ripple effect around the world we'll get into those in a moment as well fall flavors are waiting for you at whole foods market cozy picks all through the store like maple leaf cookies from 365 brand swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake here for a limited time and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day sip the season with 365 brand cinnamon spice coffee and pumpkin spice creamer while you still can spice up fall at whole foods market balance your trading strategy by adding futures cme group helps you manage risk and capture opportunities in all market environments capitalize on around-the-clock access to highly liquid global futures and options markets across all major asset classes.

31:50Visit your online broker and get started. See what adding futures can do for you at cmegroup.com forward slash podcast. Derivatives are not suitable for all investors and involve the risk of losing more than the amount originally deposited and any profit you might have made. This is not a recommendation or offer to buy, sell, or attain any specific investment or service. Wake up to money with Sean Farrington. Good morning to you. Let's get into what's happening in the world of AI and how much governments should be involved in it. We've already heard how President Xi of China has arrived in the United States and can see already the comments are coming.

32:31Donald Trump has been resisting calls from American firms for greater regulation in the world of artificial intelligence. and now Australia this morning, the Prime Minister there, has been talking about a major breach of a government website. So it seems that an OpenAI, which is that Sam Altman-led company that has ChatGPT under his watch, so one of the world's leading sort of developers of artificial intelligence models and agents and all of that, it seems that one of those, an agent of OpenAI, so this is a computer, not a human, has hacked Australia's Medicare in the world's first known AI breach of a government body.

33:20So clearly getting more information on this as the news developed. The breach happened in June. OpenAI only became aware of it in August and didn't tell the government in Australia until September the 10th, so says the Australian Prime Minister. Shanti, it feels like there's a story every week about something going a bit awry with artificial intelligence. So does this one change things a little bit when it's a government and it is a government concerned about how a company in another country is approaching all of this? I don't think it changes the picture. I think the interesting thing is all these press stories about AI agents breaking anything, they kind of originally started as marketing efforts by these companies to show how good these agents were.

34:14So Anthropic did it first and then OpenAI copied it. But then it's kind of run away. Stories run away from them as a security concern. I think it is concerning. We need to have some level of controls about how this stuff operates. But, you know, government website versus private website, you know, it's everyone. Cyber security is one of the toughest areas right now. And it's something that all companies and governments are having to spend a lot of money to deal with. Gary Hodgson is with us this morning, boss of Venture Seafood, a seafood supplier in Bridlington. You run a small business. are you thinking more than you used to about cyber security and data protection and and all of that can you even afford to do that well obviously we've always had an obligation for data protection with our staff and their information so we've always taken that seriously Sean but um cyber security not so much because we're not not a lot of it is really it based but we do use AI it's incredible really is incredible you can see how much time it can save a small business like us so upscaling that to to bigger businesses it must be an incredible saving but i just thought something quite interesting there i wonder if we talk about the finances in the uk i wonder if we actually put all of the uk's information into ai i wonder what their recommendations might be that might be an idea it would be i mean it wouldn't surprise you if there was a bot running somewhere that he's uh doing something like that to make that that's the kind of faith that people are starting to have in this stuff isn't it i don't know whether people would have the faith in the answers and the implementation of them and the trust of all of that as well.

35:54I'm interested, Gary, when you said the productivity improvements that you sort of see, what is the number one, it could be as boring as you like, the number one tool or AI product that you've been using that has helped with your business? Because we're trying to sort of extract in all these conversations, you know, what it is that people are actually using and is working uh well for us it was more on coding more on uh stock management uh stock tracking tracing so we're using uh we're actually using claude we use three co-pilot claude and um chat dbt because that's the other thing for coding it's a little bit different sean but when the thing that concerns me is that people have got to remember it's self-learning and some people are seeing something on ai and just taking it that's the truth that's gospel that's what concerns me is a lot of people are fact-checking what their the amount of times i've been quoted something from from an ai um that's slightly concerning so what are you coding at venture seafoods so this would be apps anything app-based really so for for time management for staff stock management um and as we start developing an app effectively yeah building our own apps vibe coding is that yeah as we've um been using the phrase in in recent weeks on wake up to money been around a bit longer than that but this is you know almost from scratch are you are you a trained coder no no this is no i'm not taking any credit for this show this isn't me this is deck who uh who works for us right now we we were offered a couple of courses over this last two years at whole university and we were too busy to go on it unfortunately but i think we we should have done and we should have been again probably looking and probably been advised as a business to look at this much sooner fascinating stuff well there you go uh 85058 if you're delving into similar things that Gary and, is it Dec, we're giving the credit to, did you say, Gary?

37:45Yeah, we'll give Dec all the credit. What's his position? So Dec's general manager. Gotcha. There you go. So Dec, the general manager, well done, Dec. You finally got your shout out on Wake Up to Money. If you're following some of those paths that they're following, do let us know. Because we're interested, aren't we, in what all this is doing for our jobs, day to day, for the security of the nation. We're seeing these headlines out of Australia this morning about one of the main government bodies being hacked by an open AI agent. And I was talking to Steve Hare, the chief executive of Sage, which is one of the biggest tech companies in the UK.

38:22It's the biggest on the FTSE 100. It's accounting software. If you run a small business, medium sized business, you may well have come across its stuff. and unsurprisingly artificial intelligence and how that is used in the world of accounting and administration and payrolls and all of that is having a big impact. It's having a big impact on how SAGE go about their business. And we talked about a ton of things on the latest Big Boss interview podcast. So you can go and hear the full conversation. It was really fascinating just getting into what these models really are doing, what these agents, we spent a few minutes just trying to literally explain what these agents were and what they were doing and how they might be talking to each other.

39:03And it sort of feels like it might be the kind of conversations you don't need to be listening to. But you realise, as we're seeing in the main news headlines today, that it's exactly the sort of innovation and evolution of this technology that is going on right now and will affect people's jobs. And something else we spoke about was just how much the UK should be throwing itself at trying to be a rival to the United States or to China, trying to be a sovereign AI nation with our own AI models and data centres around the country. And Steve Hare told me that the UK doesn't have the capability to be a sovereign AI nation, that we don't need to build data centres here.

39:44Even just a few months ago, the government set up a sovereign AI unit, which is a half a billion pound investment fund to invest in British AI companies. But he doesn't believe the UK will ever get to that point. And that then has implications on the amount of actual AI infrastructure we need in this country. I don't really see why we need data centres all over the UK. They're just big sheds full of computers. They can be based anywhere. I mean, if you listen to Elon Musk, he thinks they can be based in space. That in itself is not the intelligence. It's the place where it lives, but it's not the intelligence.

40:21Is it to do with sovereign security if it's on our shores? Sure. But, you know, are we really going to create UK sovereign security? If we're going to do that, we need to align ourselves with the Europeans or we need to align ourselves with the big nations. The UK does not have the capability to be a sovereign data AI nation. I don't think that's achievable. You need to focus on the things that we're good at and the things that are really achievable. And I think we still have the capability to be one of the world leaders in the applications of AI. But I don't think having a feel good factor that we have data centers all over the place really necessarily helps that.

41:11That doesn't seem to be what we've been hearing from policymakers. and even though many in the tech world who would talk about the UK being able to be one of those leaders in the development of AI. Yeah, that's why I say I'm perhaps a bit contrary. Because obviously the big LLMs, the Anthropics, OpenAI, etc., they're all building out very large data centre infrastructure. But they're not just building the infrastructure. They're building the LLMs. They have decided to be full-stack providers. So they've decided that they want to have the data centers. They want to have all the infrastructure. They want to have all the models.

41:52They want to have all the intelligence. And in some cases, they also want to have the applications. But these are trillion dollar companies. Don't you want them having a footprint in the UK? We absolutely want them to have a footprint in the UK. And they do have a footprint in the UK. But I think whether they build a data center here in the UK, or they build it somewhere else, that's just where it's housed. That's just a bunch of computers with chips. The thing that's really important is the model. It's the LLM, it's the intelligence, and then it's the application layer on top of that. So what do you do that?

42:28So I think what the UK should be focused on, and obviously I'm biased because I'm an application company, I think we should really focus on what we're good at, which is harnessing all of this intelligence which is available. I mean, we have our own models, but you don't have to compete with Anthropic to be successful. What you have to do is you have to take the intelligence that's available and then you have to create applications for the customer that you are focused on that you understand. And I think the UK is world class at that. I mean, there's evidence of the world-class nature of the UK in the tech world, you know, the brains behind DeepMind and all of this has gone on to develop and push so much of this artificial intelligence movement and revolution.

43:20Is it not a little bit unambitious to think we actually could, if we create the ecosystem, be right up there? That's really what I'm saying, Sean. I'm saying that we absolutely should be hugely ambitious in terms of being a world leader in the applications. But I don't subscribe to the fact that you need to be the full stack. If you listen to Jensen Wang at NVIDIA, he talks a lot about this. I mean, they're not trying to be full stack. I mean, they have the chips and he's talked about how over time he thinks the intelligence layer will start to commoditize because there are so many models and you're already seeing it.

44:04I mean, all the big players, Anthropic, OpenAI, they've just launched models, versions of the models, which are a tenth of the price of the ones that were available a few months ago. So there's already huge downward pressure. And if you listen to Jensen, he talks a lot about how the biggest opportunity is for the people in the application layer because this infrastructure is being built for them and they are going to be able to leverage off that infrastructure and do amazing things for their customers. So I'm hugely ambitious for the UK, but I don't think you have to be ambitious about every single part of the stack.

44:45You've got to focus on what you're good at and I think we're good at applications. That was Steve Hare there, the chief executive of Sage, one of the biggest tech companies in the UK. You can have a listen to plenty more about what he thinks about the world of AI and how it might impact accounting, how it might impact the way businesses go about doing their business. Have a search on Big Boss Interview on BBC Sounds. A government spokesperson, when we sort of put that concept to them that the UK doesn't have the capability to be a sovereign AI nation, said that failing to build our domestic data capacity would risk sending investment and good jobs abroad, leaving Britain dependent on other countries to process sensitive health and defence data.

45:29Shanti, it's a fascinating debate, this one. Yeah, and I think there is an argument that all these models are getting cheaper. Do we need the really advanced frontier models for most of the things we're doing? Maybe not. And then you don't need as much of the data centre stuff. I think there's a misnomer in that we already do have quite a lot of data centers in the UK. So, you know, that already exists. And then the other challenge is just energy and electricity. So it's, you know, that's probably where the bottleneck is for the UK. You know, things like we need to get some of these new nuclear plants built.

46:05You know, the energy grid needs to be modernized because you could build the data center. But if you haven't done that part of it, it's all going to be for nothing. When you say we have a lot of data centers here in the UK already, are the ones that we hear talked about, I notice N-Scale are on the front page of the Financial Times this morning, NVIDIA-backed company that's trying to list in the United States, but based in London. And it has been one of those companies talking about the AI infrastructure in the UK. Are we talking a different scale of data centre when you're having this? When you say we have loads around the country anyway?

46:44Yeah, they're obviously talking about building far, far more, but companies use them on a daily basis. This is dramatically upping the capacity, but almost any company, whether they know it or not, are probably using a data center today. Steve Hay was actually very interested in capacity as well. He was a very senior boss at Marconi when it went through its struggles in the tech boom around the turn of the century and lost his job, as many did in the industry and at that company at that time. And it was very interesting hearing from Steve Hare about the comparisons between what went wrong then and what the world is like now.

47:25And he was talking about capacity, building all this capacity, but are people actually going to use it? people are going to pay the price of these products that people in the tech world are putting in front of them. 85058. Let's know your thoughts on all of that. Let's hear a little bit, shall we, from Michael O 'Leary, that boss of Ryanair, who's warned that airline passengers are going to face materially higher fares next summer because of persistently higher oil prices, he told reporters. Prices in the first part of the year have been lower than in 2025, but winter fares look like they're going up.

47:55That's just everybody taking up winter capacity, pricing up because of higher oil prices. And if that continues through the winter, I think you're going to see meaningful, less capacity next summer and meaningfully higher airfares. So if I were you planning your holidays for next year, next summer, I'd be booking them today. Well, of course, yeah. Michael O 'Leary says book your holidays today, but you can see that there's been a ripple effect of the oil price anyway. So, you know, take a breath, listen to the oil and wake up to money before doing what you need to do with your finances. is um gary uh about to delve into the world of wine and how the weather has impacted it i just wonder how you know the summer we've had the heat wave after heat wave has that sort of changed the the the the way your seafood business has had to approach things as has nature changed its habits and you've had to follow no well not really sure because we always see this pattern so generally Going forwards from now, really, we see more of our customers down the central UK, then their orders increase and our coastal orders will decrease and then vice versa in the summer.

49:05So we've always seen that shift. But where we are here at Brlington and Flambrood, some of the best scenery you'll probably get in the UK. So we're very fortunate anyway. Brlington and Flambrood seems to have been very busy. My question would still be, what is the spend? And it's OK people visiting, but what spare cash have they got to spend locally? Interesting. Well, let's have a look now at this 2026 harvest in the wine industry for UK winemakers. Some producers are reporting exceptionally early ripening after that very hot summer. Popularity of English and Welsh wine continues to grow. The great picking season generates its own community, often thanks to the involvement of volunteers.

49:45And we've got Gwen Davies with us, who runs Vale Vineyard near Denby in north-east Wales. Gwen, good morning to you. Good morning, Sean. Now, you know, over the years, it's been a growing story about English wine and the way the climate has changed in the south of England has meant that industries have been able to grow. Has this year, over the last few years with these heatwaves, we've got seen a game changer for Wales? Yeah, so there's more and more vineyards cropping up around Wales, over 60 by now. so located you know particularly around coastal areas where you've got those microclimates so we can reach sufficient ripeness with the grapes we've had the hot one of the hottest years on record this year so we started harvesting on the 1st of September this year it has been more towards the middle of the month when we started out five or six years ago um but yeah that date seems to be coming forward.

50:41What difference does that make? Well, we're getting slightly higher alcohol levels in the wine because our sugars are higher, but we're looking, we're moving that picking date so that we've got the correct balance of acidity and sugars in the grapes. It's important to monitor that in the run-up to harvest and then adjust your picking dates. Has there been a trend for lower alcohol wines of late? Is that actually a little bit of a, can that be an issue if that percentage number on the bottle is higher than it was before? Slightly in terms of duty as well, so that makes a difference. But, you know, people enjoy the kind of medium-bodied, medium alcohol-strength wines that we're producing.

51:25They tend to be between 11 % and 12 % with us, but last year we were up to 13 % on our white, so that was a first. And so how has the year been? You know, we've heard the trials and tribulations of many who are producing food and drink here in the UK over the summer. As the heat waves come, is this for you good for business? It's been a great year, yeah, to be honest. We escaped that late frost in May that affected some vineyards. That was very localised. Some vineyards worse affected than others. And then it's been a hot, dry summer. So the grapes have kept healthy. and there's been a good yield there.

52:06So, yeah, perfect year. We're looking forward to tasting the wine next year. It should be a great vintage. When Gary talks about visitors to Bridlington and the weather and the tourists arriving there and actually questioning, great, they're coming, but are they spending money when they get there? Have you noticed a tourism change for this kind of stuff and in your area? You know, North Wales, very popular for people to be visiting over the summertime. Yeah, absolutely. So we've been welcoming visitors from all over the world, in fact. So there's a lot of potential for vineyards to play in boosting that tourism economy.

52:43And, yeah, we've been really busy over the summer. People are very intrigued to see grapes growing in Wales, but then really enjoying the quality of the wine. So they have a great time while they're here. I just had a message from a colleague saying we have vineyards in north too. I mean, it's been a real burgeoning industry right across the UK. Is that community growing? Do you feel like your network, when you look at the map of the UK now, is further afield? Oh, definitely. We've got a great network of vineyard owners. Everybody always very willing to support each other, you know, just to try and get the message out there about the great quality of English and Welsh wine now and, yeah, just really push the industry on.

53:26Well, Gwen, great to speak to you this morning. Hopefully that all goes to plan in the coming weeks and months. Gwen Davis there who runs Vale Vineyard near Denby in north-east Wales. Gary Shanti, great to talk to you this morning. As ever, we've got through a lot from artificial intelligence to protein. John in Woodbury says, Incredible wine in Suffolk for years, slightly more expensive than the usual brands, but delicious. There's the pitch for Suffolk wines. Always give us a shout out with wherever you're from around the country and we will let you let everybody know what you are up to where you are that is it from wake up to money this morning wake up to money from bbc 5 live that's it from wake up to money you can download the podcast every monday to friday so please make sure you subscribe we'd also love it if you left us a review when you do get in touch keep the conversation going anytime as well on social media use the hashtag wake up to money I'm Steve Bracknell Assistant Manager of Sunday League Power Houses The Royal Oak FC And I'm back in changing room at Royal Oak For a new season of Games Gone The podcast that takes you back to the grassroots of the game With my colleague Paul Sampson and Bob the Bucke And this season we're aiming for promotion To Division D of the Sheffield Sunday Imperial League Games Gone, the Steve Bracknell podcast Listen on BBC Sounds

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