Meta on trial.

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0:50BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Wake Up To Money from BBC Five Live. Hello, welcome to Wake Up To Money. We've got a distinctly Californian flavour to the show today. On their way back from there, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex moving to the UK. Will it be Brand Harry and Meghan? Brand Meghan and Harry, will their archwell business have a renaissance? Will there be a taxpayer cost as well? Do you have any tips for moving home with kids? I wonder if their new home will have a heat pump. We're going to be having a look at the number of installations of heat pumps dropping sharply. over the course of the last year.

1:29We've got the boss of the very British checker trade with us to talk trade and tradespeople. Guess where he's from? He's from Silicon Valley. We're going to be outside a courtroom in Cali for the latest from the Meta trial, questioning those actions of Facebook and Instagram. And... LeBron James at the buzzer! With the shock sale of one of the world's biggest sports businesses, the LA Lakers, that sale hitting a bump in the road We're going to hear from a former executive of 38 years. Wake Up To Money with Sean Farrington. Good morning to you. Wake Up To Money on BBC 5 Live on this Thursday morning, the 20th of August.

2:10It is just after five o 'clock. Plenty for us to be getting through on the show today, close to home, further afield. All of it impacting our lives one way or another and would very much like your thoughts. We get so many thoughts from you. this week on all we've been discussing. Keep those messages coming. 85058, should know that number by now, is, of course, the number to pop us our message this morning. 08085 909693. Want to pop us a WhatsApp? Do just that. I've got Jambu Palaniapan with us this morning, who's the chief executive of CheckerTrade, the online platform to find verified tradespeople.

2:51Jambu, very good morning. Thanks for being with us once again. Very good morning to you. And does it feel sometimes, John B. I'm right in saying you're from Silicon Valley. I was going to say the heart of California. California is a big old place and probably lots of places like to think they're the heart of California. But sometimes do you wake up and think almost every bit of news is something to do with what is the beating heart of the technology world of Hollywood. It has this remarkable domination for just one section of the United States. Yeah, there's definitely some irony in that. And then I'm shaken awake by my very British children.

3:32So it always brings you back down to reality too. Brings it back to home. Yeah, well, Harry and Meghan will be having a bit more of that in the coming months happening in the UK. So that will be making plenty more front page headlines. Harry's coming home in front of the Daily Telegraph and the Sun as well this morning. I think I'm on the front page. Can't quite find the Sun to hand at the moment. But yeah, it's on the front page of The Times as well. A bit of late breaking news. So people are going to be talking about it quite a bit. Lucy Cootes, J.M. Finns, investment director, head of the York office.

4:05Lucy, I mean, you wouldn't quite imagine your clients lining up to say, what are the consequences for my portfolio of this? But it's one of those. They're such a huge brand themselves. They're such a huge part. The Royal Family, of course, such a huge part of British life that you get a sense, don't you, Lucy, that this is going to be talked about for a while now. Oh, definitely. And, you know, I mean, the media seems to rush around looking at the relationship between the brothers and there's so much history, obviously losing their mother, etc. So it's just complete fascination. We can't help ourselves.

4:45No, and you do definitely get a sense of that. People talking about it'll be 30 years next year after Princess Diana died and there's already been talk of books being published by her family and all of that in the coming months. And at the same time, Lucy, the idea of that brand, we have talked a few times over the years about what Harry and Meghan have attempted to do in the United States, whether it's production companies, deals with Netflix and Spotify, having this Archwell brand that at one point was really being pushed quite hard as, you know, almost who they were. And then the Sussex term came back into it a little bit more.

5:32And in this era where, you know, Bran Beckham, for example, has just been doing so well of late, helps when there's been a World Cup, that, you know, the world is up for embracing family brands, isn't it? content can be king or queen and can really sort of dictate how people are willing to spend their money. Yes, it can. And I mean, I think the danger though, or the difference when you're trying to build a brand out of the royal connection, I think that there is something that doesn't sit comfortably. And I think this is why perhaps it's not been as successful as they'd hoped because, you know, the American audience, where they've tried to pitch it, there is great fascination, as we know, with the British royal family.

6:24But somehow it just hasn't worked. And I just don't know whether, I think, obviously, it's the relationship between the brothers and the war between them or the supposed war between them. Jambu, you've had life in the US, life in the UK. What's the biggest difference between them? I mean, I think the answer for me is the weather. I think there's a really interesting, I think, dynamic, which is I think, you know, America's country obsessed with its future and it's constantly asking itself a question about its future. And I think it's interesting as I've come to the UK, it's starting to ask more questions about the future as well.

7:09And I think that's certainly a change that I've seen in the decade that I've been here. Well, look, neither Jambu nor Lucy had any clue when we were lining them up to come on Wake Up to Money that making front page headlines would be Harry and Meghan's return to the UK. So very much appreciated to you both for chatting about it this morning with the insights that you have. Everybody will have some thoughts on this, no doubt, even if it's, oh, blimey, we already spent five minutes talking about it and that's too much, but it will be something that will dominate a few more questions. We might try and get a few more answers as well throughout the programme as we learn a little bit more about this.

7:46You may well have seen already that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex are planning to move back to the UK, intending to relocate from the US later this month to a private non-royal residence outside London, as reported by The Telegraph and The Sun. Their children are going to be starting a British school in September and all part of those headlines is the fact that the King was told of the move on Sunday, no plans for them to resume their roles as working royals. And Lucy, because of the environment we're in, you know, with a budget a few months away and plenty we'll be talking about on the show today will be about squeezing costs and rising prices and the country wondering, you know, where to spend its money, the Prime Minister deciding where to spend its money.

8:31It feels like it's always a bit more of a pertinent question about how much taxpayers' money is just being spent. whether it's on the royal family as a whole, on security for people as well. These things maybe get more headlines than they would have done in decades gone by. Yes, they do. But I think we have to remember that, and I think I'm right in sort of saying, that the royal family actually generates a lot of revenue for the UK. And so there is always a cost when you're going to sort of effectively make a profit. you're always going to have a cost and that cost is security, etc. But I sort of, I very much hope that there is agreement for security for the Sussexes because certainly the UK media behaves very differently from foreign news outlets and, you know, we don't want to see them being put at any risk.

9:30Well, look, let's continue a little bit with the Californian theme now. Now, it's just past, I think, about nine o 'clock in the evening over there. Our North America correspondent, Lily Jamali, has been in court for the first week of another highly anticipated big tech trial. This one maybe could have more consequences for how we use the likes of Facebook and Instagram. Meta standing accused by 29 US states of deliberately designing its platforms to be addictive to young people. Lily, good morning our time, good evening your time. What have been the developments in the last few days? What have you taken away from what you've heard in court?

10:11A lot has happened in just two days' time, and good morning to you. Opening statements were yesterday we heard both sides, the states as well as Meta, lay out what the next six weeks are going to look like in terms of the arguments that they plan to make. And you laid it out quite well. I mean, the states are saying that there is a consumer protection issue here, that the company made its products addictive with features like auto scroll and sorry, infinite scroll, autoplay notifications that bring people back to the platform. And not only that, they then misled the public about just how safe their platforms were for children.

10:55There's also an accusation by the states that they illegally harvested the data of children under the age of 13 without parental consent. So if the states get their way, they are seeking significant financial penalties. They're also seeking changes to the company's business model. And we heard the states make that case in opening statements, followed by Mehta, which denies the allegations and says that they've been very transparent about their research. They've spun all of that into new tools that are aimed at helping teens and young users control their time in the platform. And Lily, last time we were talking about a major tech court case, it was mainly about that battle between Elon Musk and Sam Altman a few months ago about, you know, what is AI really all about?

11:48So Elon Musk, obviously, boss of SpaceX and Tesla and Sam Altman at OpenAI, chat GPT's maker. Does this one to you feel like it could have more sort of immediate real world consequences depending on where it goes, given how many people, how many young people use some of these platforms and what's really at stake here? I think so. I mean, it's actually as it happens in the same courtroom with the same judge, Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers. Yeah, she is somebody who, as it happens, has overseen a number of tech cases. So I have spent a lot of time in her courtroom over the last two years. This case feels like it could have really widespread ramifications because of, you know, when you get the legal firepower of attorneys general from 29 states led by four of them, including California, that has the power to enact real change.

12:47I mean, it's not going to be a slam dunk case. I don't want to give that impression necessarily, but they are demanding that, you know, the company sort of overhaul the way that they do things. You know, they're a company that sells advertising and they need data in order to target that advertising. So that's something that I think the states are interested in targeting should they win. The Musk versus Altman case, really interesting, but it did feel a little bit smaller. in this. You know, the idea that social media as we know it could change, Instagram and Facebook being two of the biggest platforms that so many of us use.

13:28If the states win, it could have impacts on billions of users, not just in California or any of these 29 states, but around the world, could make social media more boring. And maybe that's a good thing. Lily, just before you go, for some set of coincidences, we're talking about a variety of stories linked to California today. So we've already been on about the royal family and Harry and Meghan moving back from Montecito, which I think is just outside LA. Whereabouts are you in California? Is it Silicon Valley where this trial's taking place? Yeah, I'm in San Francisco and the trial is in Oakland, California.

14:09So that's about, it's over the Bay Bridge, not the Golden Gate Bridge, which is the iconic red bridge that everybody knows. But it's in what's known as the East Bay. So we are, you know, a good six hours north of Megan and Harry. Okay, good to know, Lily. By driving. Thank you, Lily Jamali there. Our North America Tech correspondent will be chatting to Lily lots, hopefully over the coming days and weeks about that very important case. Jambu, when you see, you've got quite a, would it be fair to say, a tech background as well, not just being from Silicon Valley and California yourself, but your sort of career, when you watch what's happening with Meta, what do you sort of take from the questions at the heart of this trial?

14:59I think two themes come to me. One is I think technology companies have a responsibility to think about responsible platform design, particularly when it comes to how their products impact young people. And I think tech companies need to take that very seriously. I think the second broader point is, are we as a society becoming increasingly too dependent on five to seven trillion plus dollar market cap American tech companies? And I think that the consolidation of power of these companies is significant across all of our daily lives. If you think about the technology we use from who makes our phones to the social networks we use and email platforms we use, and that's increasingly evolving and increasing with the use of AI tools.

15:51So I think that's an interesting perspective, particularly from Britain. And I think about our business at Checker Trade, the idea of trust and safety is a huge part of where we invest time and resource. And I think it's imperative that all companies are held to the same standard on that. How do you see people reacting to that idea of do they trust what is happening at a – what effectively – You know, CheckerTrade for many people at first sort of interaction with it is an app. It's a platform, a website where they will be looking to get work done and there'll be human being involvement at some point.

16:33But that idea of trusting something from the off when all of these companies at first glance are just an app or a platform. How do you go about convincing people that you're not just attempting to do what all these massive tech companies seem to be wanting to do and just get people's eyeballs and get people using you as much as possible without actually thinking about the consequences further down the line for those customers? Yeah, I think for us, it's a core DNA of our company and our founding story is really built around trust. And that is a differentiator, right? And trusted trades who go through a vetting process before they're given access to the platform and collect reviews.

17:19We have over 6 million reviews of consumers across Britain who have used or interacted with those trades members. And we proactively deactivate trade members who don't meet the standard. This last 12 months, we've denied membership to 1 ,500-plus tradespeople who have tried to become members because they haven't met the standards. And is that number increasing year on year? Is that becoming more of a thing you have to focus on? Yeah, it's an area we've invested a lot in as, you know, continues to be a really critical component of our value to customers. And I think, you know, all technology companies have an obligation to do that.

17:56In our sector, the CMA has issued guidance in rules around the space that we've invested deeply in. And I think it's important that all platforms, you know, including the likes of Google, do that. And that's not quite what we've seen. Lucy, in terms of people's attitudes, threats to a business like Meta, if, as Lily was describing there, this court case could really be of the scale and importance as it's being laid out. Do you sort of feel investors poised to run away from some of these massive tech companies if the fundamental business model of what's built them for 20 years is changed? Oh, definitely.

18:42I think there's a huge risk. I think particularly for Meta, because there is a public fear of the features that the apps and the addictive features of the apps that they have. And I think, you know, if Meta, you know, is fine substantially, it is going to have to invest in trying to recalibrate its platform to make it safer. So there are concerns. I definitely agree that we have got a concentration of power in eight companies in the world. And that is something that investors need to be very aware of. 85058, your thoughts, please. We've had them coming in thick and fast on heat pumps, on Harry and Meghan.

19:34We'll have more to discuss on, well, maybe less to discuss on Harry and Meghan, but would very much like your thoughts. There's plenty to come out of California, I tell you, still on Wake Up To Money. We're going to be looking at the world of heat pumps here in the UK and why installations have fallen quite sharply. We'll be looking at a huge business of the Los Angeles Lakers being sold again in a short period of time for multiple billions of dollars. But there's family feuds involved. involved. There's people linked to the President of the United States, one of the biggest sports businesses in the world.

20:0885058, your thoughts on heat pumps? We've had Keith get in touch saying regarding heat pumps, hardly surprising sales have dropped. The majority of properties, they're either unsuitable or the upgrade of the property makes the cost far too expensive. UK should focus on solar and battery storage. Many more households would benefit. Well, I think actually that is where a lot of households have been focusing. Keith, somebody else, Somebody anonymous has been in touch saying, I did spend£11 ,000 on solar, and I'm convinced this was an economic decision. I'm not yet convinced on heat pumps. Not least, electricity is four times more expensive per kilowatt hour, and they add their pug ugly as well.

20:4785058, your thoughts on heat pumps, please. Some new data shows the number of installations has dropped by 17%. Solar sales are up. We're asking people in Eccles whether they've been considering solar panels or heat pumps. In terms of the environment, the weather we've been getting lately, it's free energy, isn't it? And bills are going up and up and up. So it's a way of, I suppose, cutting back on your outgoings, isn't it? I'm trying to convince my mum and dad to get one because it's better, renewable, and it is better for everyone overall. We live in flats and I think the current regime of the housing association probably wouldn't encourage us to have balcony solar or anything.

21:31The house was too old, really, to start converting it. And now they're changing the law in August that you can have these balcony ones. I'm interested in one of those. You can just plug into the power. So that was the view of the folks of Eccles. Your thoughts, please. 85058, what do you make of it? We want to hear from you. Heat pumps, solar panels, batteries. When you're considering the next moves at home, if you have the money or you're looking around for grants or you're having to upgrade part of your heating system, how does this rank in the list of things that you might be getting involved in?

22:05Let me know your thoughts, please. Tim in Gloucestershire has been in touch saying, welcome home, Harry and Meghan. How great to have such a lovely and interesting couple back in the UK. Top tip, he says. My son has moved country three times in the last 10 years with young children. Don't worry about the kids. They're amazing at adapting to new challenges and can really help with settling in. If you've made moves, house moves with kids, any tips along the way? Any tips for the parents maybe to just cope? If the kids are great at adapting, how do you get yourself in order for a move with kids along the way?

22:3985058, do let us know your thoughts. Let's talk robotics now. Now, when it comes to advances in technology, a lot of focus at the moment is on artificial intelligence. One area of innovation that, you know, still growing pretty big, pretty, pretty fast rate around the world, but perhaps is in the shadows of all the AI stuff at the moment is the area of robotics. You know, Elon Musk is a bit of a fan of that one as well. This week, the Chinese robotics firm Unitary, also known as Yushi Technology, listed on Shanghai's science and technology market. And the crucial bit here, shares rose 600 % compared to their initial value at one point on the first day of trading.

23:19So one of those where the opportunity was there for more people to get involved in the business and they took it and the share price shot up. Robots like automated industrial equipment, smart vacuum cleaners, already widely used in factories, warehouses, homes. Maybe you have a little robot around your garden or around your living room doing some of those chores that you might have done once upon a time. humanoid robots attracting a lot of amount of investment as companies like Tesla, BYD, the Chinese car company that does other things as well, Amazon are developing two-legged machines to carry out tasks.

23:56And I've got Reenat Meza-Eitof with us, who's the founder of Humanoid Analytics here in the UK. Reenat, very good morning to you. Just tell us what it is you guys are working on at the moment good morning uh we're working on um tracking humanoid robotic companies deployment funding and commercial progress so as you glimpse into the future rena what are the things that you know they might not be on the on the shelves of our supermarket just yet or available for you know immediate affordable order next day on amazon but where are the main developments in business in life at the moment that you're seeing?

24:42So in humanoid robotics, we all waiting kind of chat GPT style moment when we will have a real physical AI, where humanoids will operate autonomously in our house in offices. This is kind of magic moment we are all waiting for. So what's the magic moment in an office that a humanoid robot might say? Let's say currently, if we will look to a segment of humanoid markets like household and personal assistant, current position of humanoid, it's a kind of smart, uh um maybe a smartphone with hands and legs and you can ask uh like ask to help uh or to help a help like a digital hub for example find me certain data create me certain analysis and this robot can do that but if you will ask can you bring me a cup of coffee the robot won't be able to do this task independently, autonomously.

25:53That is very challenging because AI, basically it's a text-based AI, large language models. But physical AI, it's a completely different story. Physical world is very complicated. We live in a very complicated physical world, multidimensional. And measure that world is very challenging and develop physically. I also very challenging. And people might think, well, do you know what? Like it's not we would employ a person in our office to only be there to just make me a coffee whenever I want a coffee. but there are you know there'll be other roles around our lives i'm guessing where you know there maybe isn't there enough people to do a certain job or there's a feeling that having humanoid robots could be a way of being more productive getting people the services they need do you see other countries around the world sort of maybe being a little bit further ahead of of us in in how they use humanoid robots yes if we will look to a segment of humanoid robotics like industrial and commercial work in manufacturing assembly warehousing and logistic we can succeed in this segment quite soon i guess couple companies shows that they have a reasonable valuable breakthroughs in this segment.

27:32Right. So we may see, yeah. I just wanted to bring in Jambu Palaniapan, who's with us this morning, who's the chief executive of CheckerTrade, which is a big platform in the UK that helps match up people with tradespeople to get jobs done around their home quite often. Jambu, can you see this coming into the world of trade? At some point, I mean, maybe you see it already where certain jobs aren't as requested as they once were because there's a sort of machine way of doing things. We're still far away from robots replacing skilled workers. I think in areas like manufacturing, we are seeing that in terms of automation.

28:20But ultimately, I think skilled trades work is dexterous, judgment-heavy, site-specific. and I think we're reasonably a long way off of that here in the UK. I had an opportunity to visit China a few months ago and saw some of the robotics advances and to be honest, it is wild, right? In areas like I saw a robot firefighter, for example, that sort of looked like a dog and I think it is interesting to think about what the impact of that is. I agree with you. I think we're maybe underestimating the impact of that relative to AI. And I think that investment in that physical, you know, world models, right?

29:03AI models for the physical world is something we're seeing broadly much more investment in. Reena, where would you, if you had to predict where you thought the type of humanoid robotics that you're working on is going to be used en masse in the UK, where do you get a sense of that first move being, you know just interesting hearing about firefighting there we've we've covered stories before about you know care of people in you know in japan people maybe a little bit more sort of open-minded to the idea of robotics as solutions for people's care or company or assistance in in an older age where would you see rena the the next impact here in the uk I guess maybe in marketing and promotional events.