Time for a DIP

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0:42Learn more at odoo.com. Wake Up To Money from BBC5 Live. Hello, welcome to Wake Up To Money. Well, was that the 11 hours where the World Cup truly came to life? Morocco and Paraguay fans will have to stretch their budgets a bit further. the Dutch and German fans saving a bit of cash with those early exit. We're going to hear how England fans are managing their money. We'll speak to one person who's been to every game so far for England. How do you keep an eye on the dollars and cents once you are in the knockout stages? Andy Burnham has set out plans for growth in every postcode in a speech outline in his vision for the country.

1:24He's highlighted one place in Greater Manchester that's a great example of why he says public intervention is necessary. When I was younger, my mum used to call it Stinkport. But yeah, it's not like that now. No, it always was. Stopports and we'll speak to the council leader there, people in the town on how things have changed. Also this morning, after months of delays and tensions in government that led to ministers residing, the Prime Minister will set out the government's defence investment plan. Wake Up To Money with Sean Farrington. Good morning to you. Wake Up To Money on BBC5 Live on this Tuesday morning, the 30th of June.

2:01Have you had any sleep? If you haven't, get in touch. What's been the highlight of the last 11 hours of listening to those World Cup dramas that have taken place? It's been quite a night. You might have just got that Brazil-Japan game in and thought, right, I'll get a good night's kip and see how everybody's got on in the morning. Blimey, just the last few hours before Wake Up to Money, in the middle of the... just before midnight as well around midnight has been some cracking games and we're going to be talking much more later in the show about the finances around being a fan at the World Cup I mean you can sort of see some of the decisions changing and in the eyes of some of the fans in the last few moments one minute you're out the tournament the next minute you're back in and you're through to the next round so how do you maybe you've done it before have you been to one of these tournaments where you actually don't know how far you're going to get and you are having to make decisions, take insurance, can you get refunds on certain bookings for further down the line?

3:03How do you approach this stuff? If you've done it before, let me know. We're going to be hearing from fans who are doing it right now. I remember I went out to a tournament once, had everything booked, sort of half following England, not actually getting to an England game with my mum. And we were there for the first 10 days or so of the tournament. And just as we were leaving, because we thought, you know, we need to get in the group stages, don't know how far England might go. Just as we were departing, a load of German fans arrive into the country to start following their team because they were confident, they were getting through to the knockout stage, they were going deep into the tournament and it would not surprise me if that was the case in the United States and how things have changed for Germany in the last few hours.

3:43So 8-5-0-5-8, how do you plot when things are a little bit uncertain when it comes to sport in tournaments like this? got Dan Murray with me this morning co-founder of the health supplements company heights Dan good morning to you are you up all hours watching these games or you keeping your sleeping rhythms and and trying to catch up where you can around them oh well let's see I've got to run a company as soon as we get off the call and I've got two kids under four so I certainly am not staying up all night not by choice of course occasionally I'm woken up multiple times a night but not for world cup um do you do you get a sense in the in the wider world when you're having conversations through supply chains whether it's just staff that you have that that the world cup does sort of take a little bit of of people's imaginations and comes into conversations anymore or is this one i don't it might be time zones that mean actually it's it's not quite dominating your chat around around it as it normally would yeah good question i think we're constantly told how popular this world cup is but it's difficult to believe it in the uk isn't it because the games are on so late it's outside of watching the england games um you know it does feel different you're right it does actually feel different this time around you know previously in world cups you feel like everyone's talking about it all the time but that's probably by the nature of being able to see most of the games if they you know i just got on on this call and the last game just finished it's just not very practical well to be honest if you're coming on wake up to one it's perfectly practical you know as you're getting up you get to watch watch this stuff i reckon though that the night of sport that we've just had might change things a little bit i think you're right because people start to get a bit of fomo don't they they might have thought yeah i woke up at 4 45 with enormous foam i literally looked at my phone for the scores and i was like oh my god and i came running downstairs ready for this call but also can i catch the last you know last penalties so you're actually right.

5:43There we go. Right. We'll see. We'll check in with you in a couple of weeks, Dan, see if you're a bit more blurry-eyed having stayed up a little bit longer. More games fall into the sort of standard viewing times for us Brits at the minute. Rachel Winter also with us this morning, partner and investment manager at Killican Co. Rachel, have you been paying much attention to these last few weeks of drama? It looks like it's stepping up a level now. Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I think it brings people together. It's something to talk about. We've got a bit of a sweepstake going on at work. So I think people are chatting about that, which is quite good fun.

6:15Very good. And I am, of course, on about the World Cup. I'm not necessarily on about political shenanigans that have been going on as well. And once again this morning, Rachel, dominating the headlines, what Andy Burnham spent so much of yesterday talking about, spent so much of the last decade talking about to those in the northwest of England. But when you see front pages of the papers this morning, the Daily Mail, Burnham wants to rewire Britain from Manchester base. The Daily Mirror, it's coming home. So Burnham's housing ambition. The front of the Guardian, Burnham puts number 10 north at the heart of bid to rewire Britain.

6:59So that word rewire coming up a few times, Rachel. Are you getting a sense of what a rewiring might be? Is there anything in there that makes you think, OK, this could actually be being done a little bit differently to how it's been done in the past? Well, I mean, it's quite light on detail at the moment, so we don't know exactly what he's going to do. But at the moment, I would say it's been quite well received. So just looking at the markets, we haven't seen a big drop in the pound. We haven't seen a big drop in UK government bonds. And that suggests that at the moment people aren't running away from all things UK.

7:34They seem to be fairly comfortable at the moment, which is very reassuring. Dan, what do you want to hear? When you see the headlines of rewiring, and of course at this point, Andy Burnham's not even Prime Minister yet. We actually have an announcement from Prime Minister Keir Starmer about defence spending today and all of that, which apparently Andy Burnham has backed as well with those expectations that he will be Prime Minister at some point, possibly relatively soon. but when you when there is an opportunity Dan to rethink things or readjust the direction things are going if you are a new person in charge and you and as Andy Burnham is trying to do at the minute he's trying to say look this is how I would do things differently what are the key things to remember when when he's looking at that I mean I think a word like rewiring adds a bit more confusion to anything than i mean it sounds like an electrician um maybe it is on purpose like maybe it's actually purposeful language like he's obviously got that man of the people thing that he um is known for and kia starmer is as far from that as as the public population can imagine so i think that side of it is good but um i think what he's going to have to be really careful about in general is, I was just watching his answers yesterday, like he's just another vague politician.

8:59Everything was really vague, couldn't say anything directly about what he wanted to do, and that will buy him some time. And that's obviously what politicians do masterfully in this period as well. But it was just a word salad to me. And I think they were just really good opportunities. I actually really like what he's saying about decentralising power from London and make it all over the UK. It's actually one of the best opportunities we have in the country. There's no way anyone from the UK who's been to another country can understate how much power and everything, culture, spend, everything gets centralised here in London.

9:37It's not normal, right, in other countries to have that much centralised in one place. So I think it's a really good opportunity. But he, in my opinion, missed out something very obvious, which is because it's so unpopular to the population, which is AI. You know, talking about how to decentralise London's power would be to create special economic zones for AI, for chip making, for quantum, for all the things that the UK can be absolutely world leading on. But put them in Sheffield, put them in Newcastle, put them, you know, all over the country. It would be a brilliant plan. But he literally actively avoided mentioning those dreadful words because it's like popular idea with unpopular policy.

10:18equals something that people don't want to hear versus actually addressing the elephant in the room head on, which would be brave, bold and exciting. Interesting. I might ask you a little more about what is so unpopular about AI a little bit later. We'll focus on that concept of devolving power and having less of that power in centralised in Westminster, in the political hub of London as it is at the minute, because it is interesting. I noticed a line in the Financial Times this morning, which has popped up a fair bit, backs up exactly what you're saying, Dan, that the UK is currently the most fiscally centralised country in the G7.

11:02So as the column in the FT goes, there's plenty of scope to loosen central control without overdoing it. So it's part of what this is about. So let's hear a little bit from Andy Burnham. He outlined his vision for the UK economy in this speech. You know where it was. It was in Manchester yesterday. Number 10 North will be the nerve centre of a rewired Britain. We will bring about the biggest rebalancing of power our country has seen. It is time for Whitehall to accept that growth cannot be ordered from the top down. Instead, it can only be nurtured from the bottom up. It comes from not leaving everything to the market, but public intervention where necessary to set higher ambitions for towns, as we did in Stockport, and kickstart the process of change.

11:53This is Manchesterism. so manchesterism uh we've heard that the stockport has been used as an example within greater manchester which as mayor of greater manchester that was under andy burnham's sort of remit stockport as an example of where things have improved what have they done in stockport our reporter hannah mullane went there to speak to business owners and to people who were living there as well. Just a few years ago Stockport was a town just like many others around the country struggling high street declining jobs and little to keep people spending their time and money here well that started to change when it became part of the Mayoral Development Corporation basically a regeneration partnership between local leaders here in Stockport and the then Mayor of Manchester Andy Burnham.

12:44Andy Burnham has been using Stockport as a great example for regeneration but what has it meant for business? Laco Cafe and Bistro was here before the regeneration project started and Bianca is the manager. When this business was open, it was the only place where you could go and have a nice coffee. Now, in the past eight years, a lot of businesses are open. It's getting busier. It's getting more popular. It started with two employees, this cafe. Now we have nine employees. I'm standing here on Stockport High Street and there are loads of new businesses. I've got a barbershop in front of me, a deli behind and a nice wine bar to the right.

13:30And if I look up the road, there's a new apartment block being built. There are still some vacant units and there's definitely work to be done. But there are certainly lots of independent shops and businesses that are choosing to set up here. How are you going? Can I get an iced latte please? Thank you. My name is Lucas and this is the Dilly Dilly. We've been open for two months now, so super new to the street, to the area, specifically Stockport. We moved to Stockport three years ago and wondered if we'd made a mistake because there was not a lot going on. But over those three years, it's literally just been popping off left, right and centre.

14:09I mean, the street that we're on, the underbanks, is kind of like the heart of Stockport. and from one end to the other there's probably been maybe like five, six, seven new openings in the past couple of years. I mean, we're sat at your cafe window here and you can see spacious apartments and retail units coming on a big side outside. You know, you look at all these different sites and they're full of different shops. So clearly there is a lot of investment going into the area and you can feel that as a resident and a business owner. Absolutely, yeah. I'm Eve Copp. me and my business partner Mark Goff have Brook on the underbank.

14:44We are primarily a wine barb. The business has been open for a year and a half. We looked at our building in 2023, it hadn't been used for 10 years, it was falling apart but with that came you know years of free rent, a little bit of help from the council. There's such a mix of people, you've got a Polish cafe on one corner, you've got a Colombian cafe up the road, like you've got such a mix of culture and people and things happening and I don't think that would happen if only a certain type of people could afford to open a business but I think a lot of people have been moving into Stockport as well which has made a massive difference a lot of young families and just like young working people and a lot of students which is cool like six years ago you wouldn't see a student having a pint in Stockport and now they're out every weekend which is really cool.

15:32There are loads of mayoral development corporations now in Greater to Manchester trying to replicate Stockport's success. Now we might get to see whether this formula that seems to be working here in Stockport might work in other towns across the country. Hannah Mullane reporting there from Stockport and we've got the leader of Stockport Council who is also from Stockport Liberal Democrats as well, Mark Roberts with us. Mark, good morning. Good morning. I mean, you must sort of hear that reporting from Hannah there and think that is what it was all about for Stockport. Yeah, absolutely. It's a great thing to wake up to hearing fantastic things said about the town that you run.

16:11And I think Stockport's got a real buzz about it at the moment for anybody that lives here, but also those that visit can see just what a change we've had over the last few years. It's been a long journey, but the change has really had Rocket Booster's put under it, working with the Mayoral Development Corporation that we have here. Now, Mark, we are speaking to the nation right now. And as Andy Burnham is attempting to with his speech yesterday, and this isn't just about Greater Manchester. So to those who are thinking, well, look, we don't have a Manchester on our doorstep. You know, the transport links between Stockport and Manchester are very good, very close together.

16:57The way Greater Manchester is laid out at least gives the opportunity. I'm not saying it's straightforward for a place like Stockport to have done what they've done, but it provides that opportunity there. There's an affluence of Cheshire on the south side of Stockport as well. So what can you say to those who are in towns of a similar size of Stockport around the country, But, you know, they might not have an urban juggernaut on their doorstep the way Stockport has had that they can take from the story you've got to tell of your town. So I think being bold and being ambitious is important. And Andy has talked about Stockport in his speech.

17:43The idea that Manchesterism potentially started in Stockport, I think, is a really interesting thought. I think part of that is linked to the way that we've done things here in Stockport. Stockport had been a council in no overall control for 15 years. We changed that in May. The Democrats took overall control. But that no overall control approach has meant that we've had a very mature approach to our politics. So the work that's been delivered with the MDC has been done on a cross party basis. It has crossed a Labour administration in no overall control, a Liberal Democrat administration in no overall control, and is now in an administration that is a Liberal Democrat in full control.

18:26But it's so important still to make sure that all the other parties, all the other politicians have that buy-in. And I think that's been key to the success that we've had. have been able to give that reassurance to developers, to investors, that this isn't just a short-term political puff of hot air. It is something that we're all committed to. I've just had a message in, Mark, and this is what the message says. They say, any real businesses in Stockport, not just cafe and coffee places? Now, I know a lot of what we heard from Hannah there was about the development that people will see on a high street, which is a big part of what Andy Burnham's talking about in his plans.

19:04it's a big part of what people see in their town centres but I do sort of understand where the question might be coming from you know we do absolutely not to dismiss hospitality in any way at all but just in a very short question getting the sense of are there are there big employers big industries in Stockport as well that you've seen come into the town are there so I wouldn't at all phrase it as real businesses as the listener has got in touch there but you know something away from the high street yeah so absolutely we've got some fantastic businesses uh here in stockport and that investment that that those businesses have put into the products that they're delivering whether that be uh um whether that be semiconductors whether that be uh military equipment um we've got uh things that are built in stockport that are trusted around the world.

19:57And I have to say, some of it I wasn't aware of until I became leader of the council, but it's been a real pleasure to get to know some of those businesses and see where those jobs are that our communities rely on. I want to bring Dan back into this. Dan Murray, who's with us, boss of the health supplements company, Heights. Dan, when you hear a little bit of what's gone on in Stockport and you mix that with what you were saying is sort of needed around the country, What lessons are you taking? What do you think can be replicated or what's more tricky in other parts? I mean, I'm no geographical expert on the UK.

20:34In fact, I'm actually spending the summer doing a staycation. So I'll come back to you on this. All in the north, you'll be pleased to know. I'm not going to Stockport. I am going to Southport. So around the corner, I think. I would honestly come back to the same point. I think it's a really good policy. I think it's really important. And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Londoner who doesn't accept that, you know, it is overly centralised here. And there's no necessary benefit to that. Right. You want education. You want opportunity and you want that feeling of hope to be spread across the UK.

21:13hey, it's one of the biggest problems that we definitely have is this idea that, you know, a lot of that stuff gets given, so to speak, to the South simply because that's where it started and the geography of it. And I think whenever you're trying to create a plan for growth and opportunity in a business, so think about, you know, the country in the same way. I mean, at the end of the day, the government is the business running the company of the country. you have to make bold bets on the future and you have to think about you know how to serve all of your employees and in this case the population equally with the best opportunity and it's so obvious that we've got you know excellent universities excellent opportunities and excellent structures in other places other than London and it would do I think a great job for all British people including Londoners to have those opportunities spread out and shared across the country.

22:07I can only think it's a good thing. I just think that it also, if you want it to be consistent with growth and opportunity, then you need to, like I said, this is a plan for the future. So you need to look at what the technologies of the future are going to be in the next 10, 20, 50 years, because that is where all the economic opportunity is going to go. That's where the money is going to flow into. So it has to be congruent with the idea of building those skills and building that infrastructure in those areas. You know, it's like a bit tired to use it, but the railroad example, you know, in the US or whatever, it's like, you know, when that was the defining new technology of the time, investing in whatever the old transport mode was in those towns and giving it all to London wouldn't have helped those other parts of the country at all.

22:59so if the south and ai sorry if the south and for example london cambridge oxford all the places that seem really obvious because you know four of the top five universities are all within about an hour of london anyway and that's in the world you know if they all continue to get all of the ai talent here um then it's just going to be a virtue signaling policy that sounds nice but it isn't going to change the impact for the uk so so we have a real opportunity and he's got a good idea I just need to execute it consistently. So, Mark, what do you think is needed to actually get this idea executed?

23:39What are going to be the things that mean this isn't just words for towns and cities right around the UK of rewiring? The front page of The Times, we see a bit of pleading for 10 years to rewire the UK. We rewire the UK, Burnham pleads for 10 years is the front page of The Times. And people often hear another 10-year target and a lot of people will be thinking, well, hang on, I need some change and some optimism right now. What are those urgent things, Mark? So I think that's a really fair challenge. And I think the – so certainly in Stockport's case, it was the leaders back in 2009, 2010 who really grabbed the bull by the horns when we went through the last financial crash.

24:28on ensuring that our place as a council, we were able to shape what that looked like moving forward. So decisions that happen now are important for that 10, 15 years worth of where that future might be. But certainly in the short term, I mean, I think how you put rocket boosters under it is similar to what we've done here in Stockport with the work that we've done with Andy, with the Mayor of Development Corporation and as local leaders here, is that putting the rocket boosters underneath that work, it's devolving the power, it's making sure that the work that he does when he's talking about giving power out from Westminster, it's making sure that that trickles down to the lowest possible level.

25:15To me as a local councillor, for example, to be able to set what it is that is important in my area. And with that, Mark, do we have to then, if that's what it's going to be, do we have to accept there'll be some places where it doesn't work? You know, when it is devolved, there'll be certain regions that will make mistakes and it might go wrong. What happens then? So my encouragement would be when your politicians make mistakes, you look at the politicians that you're voting for, frankly. so here in Stockport we have a strong liberal tradition here, liberal democrat tradition here but we've been able to deliver what we have because we've worked in a cross-party way, we are keen to hear alternative views and I think that is the only way that we will get a more constructive politics is for other parties to listen to each other, to work with each other, to perhaps take a out of the book that we have as to how we look to work.

26:15And I think that's what Burnham potentially has learnt from working with us across Greater Manchester. I'm the only Liberal Democrat in the room at a GM level, but I feel like I am in the tent. I am one of the ten leaders there, and that's been credit to him. He's a rare beast within the Labour Party, somebody that can hear and accept that other people have got views that are worth listening to. Really interesting here. You lay out a bit of what's happened in Stockport, Mark. Thank you for your time this morning. Mark Roberts, leader of Stockport Council, Stockport Liberal Democrats as well. Wherever you are around the country, clearly this conversation is not going to stop us, at least for the next few weeks until we get to a point where Andy Burnham is, if we get to that point where he's appointed Prime Minister.

27:03But when you hear this around the country, because you see Manchester making front page headlines on the Daily Mail this morning, are you hearing here that something that could be applied to your area? Which bits of it jump out for you? Rachel Winter is with us this morning, our investor on the show, partner and investment manager at Killick & Co. Rachel, we've heard there about investment into Stockport and one of Andy Burnham's big thing has been about investment into Manchester, Greater Manchester. What is needed to convince investors that all different parts of the country are going to be worth putting money into?

27:45Well, I think a bit of a track record. So I felt very encouraged by hearing some of the interviews there in Stockport about how there had been so much support for businesses. and I think you would be very hard-pressed to find someone in London who would say the same thing. People generally complain about the business rates, the lack of support from councils and government, the difficulty finding the right staff. So it's great to see an example of a different approach that has really worked. 85058, do let me know. Maybe there have been examples that have worked as well where you are. Of course, it's not just the point that the only place that works is Greater Manchester.

28:20Maybe you live in parts of Greater Manchester where you don't feel that it has worked for you as well. Always really important for us to hear about how this, to use Mark Roberts' phrase there, trickles down within an area. Somebody who's been in touch who lives in Stockport in Greater Manchester, saying since moving there, some of the interesting things I've seen which have given the place a buzz are things like Foodie Friday, which made the market a destination, Stock Room, where the library moved into the high streets. There's a coffee shop and a playroom, great for families and free. Additionally, the new transport hub connecting up the town centre makes it easy to get there.

28:54So a few sort of buzzwords there, aren't there, in what towns may want around the country. Nick in Wokingham's been in touch saying, Sean, regarding Burnham, in a world and country where there's increasing complexity and disagreement, decisions and actions need to be moved to a local level. A distant cabinet of around 12 in Downing Street cannot manage it. So 85058, your thoughts, please. Rachel, it's interesting within sort of this initial launch, if we want to call it that, from Andy Burnham about what his ideas might be. Some of the key questions around the state of the nation's finances and where in the shorter term some of the big financial decisions might come.

29:40You know, we get to the point where we'll be talking about a budget on the horizon soon. And if there are fiscal rules and so how much can we borrow and how much wiggle room is there for the politicians in charge to do what they want to do. Does that feel like that took a little bit of a backseat yesterday in the speech? Oh, completely. So you mentioned that phrase, key questions. And I thought it was quite interesting that he didn't allow any questions from journalists or from anyone after his speech yesterday. So I feel that his policies aren't yet concrete enough for anyone to be questioning them.

30:09So there's not yet enough detail there. But what I do think, if we think back to last year when he made that comment about how we shouldn't all be in a hock to bond markets, I think he is now aware that that was quite concerning for people. It was quite concerning for investors. And he has been very careful this time around to really keep stating that he will stick to Rachel Reeves' red lines. And I think that has been very reassuring for markets. 85058, keep your thoughts coming from right around the country about what is going on where you are. Well, David in Pembrokeshire makes the point. Isn't the UK's wish to be an AI powerhouse going to be held back by having the most expensive power in the world to drive data centres?