Wake Up to Money: Andy Burnham

23:40Well, I think you can start to see it as soon as it's dark from about nine to ten, but it peaks at about midnight. We usually open around then and it's still open around then anyway.

23:49Felicity Hannah:It's going to be a busy night. Richard from Whitby is also having a busy night. It's a solar eclipse party tonight at North York's North York Moors National Park Centre, Danby, overseen by the Whitby Astronomical Society. open for 5pm. He says, free entry, glasses on sale limited. I mean, that is it, isn't it, Amy? Glasses on sale limited. If people can't get hold of the glasses today, Amy, what would your strongest advice be? Well, it's funny, events like this are helpful for people who don't have glasses because people are very friendly during an eclipse. We're all experiencing this incredible wonder together and they will look over at you and ask you, would you like to look through my glasses.

24:30So that would be my best advice if you do want to look directly at the eclipse and don't have a pair. But other than that, you're obviously looking at things like pinhole projectors and colanders, which you've mentioned already. But it's just as fun either way. But it's always, I think, just a little bit more special to look directly at it.

24:47Felicity Hannah:Amy Clayton, Managing Director of Solunay, joining us from Mallorca, where you've travelled to watch the eclipse. Thank you so much, Heather Walton, who runs the Hunters Inn in Exmoor National Park and Dark Sky Reserve. Thank you very much. It's going to be a very, very busy and hopefully quite exciting evening. Thanks for being with us. Take care. Thank you. Still with me is Anna MacDonald, Investment Strategy Director at Hargroves Lansdowne. And looking back, all the way back to 99 and the eclipse then, I remember, I think it was a large cider company was the official sponsor of the eclipse.

25:23Felicity Hannah:And I do remember that when it It looked like there might be some cloud cover. People were suggesting perhaps the sponsor could get in touch with the sun and ask it to delay. But perhaps we were better or maybe worse at monetising these things 27 years ago. I really do remember it. There was a lot more hype about it and there was a lot more sort of advanced knowledge. There was more hype, yes. And I mean, I suppose it's all our fault. We know these things can be predicted thousands of years in advance, but somehow none of us really seemed to realise it was happening until now. This is very true.

25:57Felicity Hannah:Peter in Norfolk says he's playing lawn bowls in Norfolk this evening. I guess floodlights might be required. It is quite interesting, though, when it happens, is my memory. All the sort of birds go quiet, then they start singing when the sun comes back out. So it is always just an amazing phenomenon. Keep your thoughts coming this morning. What are you going to be up to? Have you spent any money? Did you get the glasses? Are you trying something else? Jazz in Leamington Spars says we happen to be on holiday in Barcelona and we'll be watching the eclipse. Pop quiz. What's in your kid's lunchbox?

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26:53Felicity Hannah:With the American Express Platinum card, I can unlock experiences like no other. Since I'm always booking my next trip, I love that I can earn points on travel. Plus, I get a resi benefit, so you know I'm hitting the restaurants everyone's talking about. And you can find out your welcome offer after you apply, which could be as high as 175 ,000 points. For experiences like no other, there's nothing like Platinum. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com slash explore dash platinum. Terms apply.

27:25Wake Up To Money with Felicity Hanna.

27:28Felicity Hannah:Good morning. If you're just joining us, we have just been chatting about people who are making today's eclipse, tonight's eclipse into business. And so we'd like to hear from you still. Are you watching the eclipse? Have you already bought your glasses? Are you planning to do anything special, maybe an eclipse party? Have the eclipse got you out spending? See if you can do better than Paul Elaine and Ralph the Cocker Spaniel who messaged in to say hi, Fliss. Careful if using a colander to view the eclipse, you may strain your eyes. OK, very good. Very good. Thank you for that. Send me your eclipse messages.

28:07Felicity Hannah:You can text me on 85058. You can send me a WhatsApp message on 08085 909693. And you can use the hashtag WakeUpToMoney on social media. I'd also like to hear your thoughts about the chat we have had on Wake Up to Money with Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister. His first conversation with Wake Up to Money since entering Downing Street. That is coming in just a few minutes. Before we do that, though, still with me, Anna MacDonald, Investment Strategy Director at Hargreaves Lansdowne. Max Rees, co-founder of the high-protein, high-fibre snack brand, The Curators. I just wanted to chat very quickly through some changing costs that we're seeing in the last couple of days.

28:49Felicity Hannah:Anna, oil prices rose more than 2 % yesterday, the highest point now since late July. The price of a barrel of Brent crude, which is kind of our benchmark for this, isn't it? Currently just under$90. And this is all down to some more hot words between Donald Trump and Iran. Yes, I mean, there has been so much back and forth, hasn't there? We've seen the oil price move around quite a lot. What I like to look at, though, is the fact that future oil prices, so if you were to buy oil to be delivered next year, that's actually not really moved that much. And, you know, I think that's because that we know that most of the time after there are big oil price spikes, even if they're quite extended, what happens is the market is very clever at finding other ways around it, buying from different regions, even building new pipelines, that's happening at a rate of knots at the moment.

29:44And so what often happens after an extended oil price inflationary period is that you actually find a lower oil price on the other side because more suppliers come on, more fixes have been put in place. So I know that the oil price, it's a worry and it, for example, it translates immediately into some higher inflation at the petrol pump and into food. But I think we do hope that the longer term outcome is going to be much better. And also we can see that the central banks are trying to, at the moment, look through that and not try and raise interest rates that much at the beginning because there's not much that the rising rates will not actually do much to help that oil price come down.

30:33and it will just cause demand, what we call demand destruction.

30:37Felicity Hannah:And Max, is this putting pressure, the high oil price, putting pressure on your business, on all business, I suppose? Yeah, it does. I mean, it has an immediate impact in the transport, in the business and the fuel surcharges that we incur every week with our partners. And then obviously every part of food manufacturer, logistics, retailing, uses an element of fuel. and so it does just drive through inflation. And to hear that, yes, it will, it should come back down in the long term, I mean, sadly, that just means we have to absorb those costs in the meantime. You know, prices go up and in the current environment, it's very, very hard to recover them, even if the oil price does come down in the long term.

31:23Felicity Hannah:And it all just adds to the pressure on businesses. Well, let's hear what the Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, is thinking about doing in that situation. He's told this programme, Wake Up To Money, that the increases to national insurance added pressure to business. He told me he accepts that his announcements aimed at tackling the cost of living are not enough on their own to help households. He hinted at further support. We're going to hear that chat now, but I began it by asking whether everything he's announced so far, and it has only been three weeks, things like capping bus tickets, unwanted subscriptions.

31:59Felicity Hannah:I put it to him, are those arguably small potatoes in the face of rising energy bills, food prices and the ongoing cost of living generally? I can accept criticism that this isn't enough because I wouldn't say it's enough. But I take an approach to politics where I do what I can when I can. Just take that little bit of pressure off and address an issue that you know needs addressing. It's not the end of the story. I've made it very plain that this needs to be a cost of living government. That has got to be our main focus. And you can't solve that with one big move. Obviously, big moves can help.

32:35What you've got to do is just put an accumulation of smaller things in that in the end will combine to take the pressure down.

32:43Felicity Hannah:But can you tell people that there'll be significant help coming in the budget, which is the next chapter in this story? Well, that's certainly what I've asked the Chancellor to look at. what further can we do in the budget to relieve the cost of living pressure and he himself, John Healy, has said that is his main focus. We are going to bring forward the VAT cut on electricity, we are bringing forward the business rate cuts for pubs, we're going to look at business rates more broadly for high street businesses in the budget, so there's plenty more that we can do. When I talk about the bigger moves, I personally believe, learning from the experience I had with buses in Greater Manchester, more public control of the essential services, water, energy, housing, in the end would mean we could get to a more substantial answer to the cost of living crisis that people face.

33:36Felicity Hannah:Is it time though to say also to people, is it time to front up and just say look times are tough, government can only do so much and that's not necessarily as much as they might like? No, that's a defeatist approach and I never take the defeatist approach. As I said, I put buses under public control in Greater Manchester and because of that, I had control of the fares and I could reduce the fares. So we've just put rail under public control, renationalised it. What we've not fully done yet is remodel the rail fares so that we can get more public benefit for people there and that is something that I'm looking at as well.

34:11And I mentioned water. It won't be easy to reverse the changes of the 80s and 90s, but I very much am looking at what can be done. Same with energy. So I'm looking at all of these areas, the things that were put into private hands in the 1980s, that now are very expensive, things that people have to buy. I'm looking at what we can do to increase public control and therefore reduce the cost.

34:38Felicity Hannah:Let's talk about businesses though because small businesses tell our program every day it's a real struggle just to keep going, just to stay in business. How can you help them? Well I understand what they're saying and I know the cost of doing business is too high particularly for smaller businesses and I wouldn't want to promise the earth and say all can be solved because I think people can see I'm facing a difficult financial outlook and I won't bring forward things that I can't fully fund. but what can you promise? Well I have already made moves in three weeks in my first period in office. I've made a commitment around VAT on electricity and that does affect the smallest businesses who are able to get the benefits of the removal of VAT off electricity.

35:27We've made a move on pubs and business rates. I'm signaling going further on business rates so there are things that we can do and we'll do everything that is possible for us to do. But I think everyone knows that I'm in a position with limited room for manoeuvre.

35:45Felicity Hannah:One thing that almost every business we talk to says and has been saying for over a year is that the hike in national insurance contributions has put real pressure on them, and especially when it was combined with that rise in the minimum wage. Do you agree that that put pressure on businesses? I think the pressure on businesses is coming from a range of sources. And did that increase it? Of course, it added pressure. The cost of energy is adding pressure. So businesses, I understand what they're saying and what they're feeling. And my job is to not just hear that, but then respond to it and see what we can do.

36:27I wouldn't want to at this point start making commitments those are for the budget and these issues can be looked at at the budget and as I said before the room for maneuver is not is not huge however I would like to bring down the cost of doing businesses I want to make high streets more vibrant across the country I know that cannot be done by simply wishing it you have to put in place the support for businesses to make that happen but can you get the economy

36:56Felicity Hannah:growing without easing that kind of pressure on businesses? I think there are plenty of things that you can do to get the economy growing and I prove that as Mayor of Greater Manchester which today is the fastest growing city region in the country and growth comes from a range of ways. It comes from putting the infrastructure in, it comes from building the homes that people need, it comes from a skills system that doesn't just obsess on the university route but offers technical paths for young people. All of those things are the enablers of growth and Number 10 North is very focused on taking power out of Westminster and Whitehall and putting it into the regions of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to get growth going in every postcode and that's the commitment I've made as Prime Minister.

37:41Felicity Hannah:Does that growth come more quickly, more easily though, if you ease off that pressure on businesses so they can get hiring? So for example, they can get hiring the students who get their A-level results this week, the students in Scotland who got their results last week? It's about the point of balance, isn't it? It's about, obviously, everybody contribute to the investment the country needs in the things that I've just mentioned, and that does come from the taxes that people pay, but then at the same time, getting the balance right and ensuring there is enough support for businesses, particularly sectors that are struggling the most, and we've heard from hospitality, but I know there are many, many others as well.

38:17Felicity Hannah:And is that something you'll be mindful of in the budget? Always mindful of it every day as well as in the budget. And I've only been in three weeks and I have announced quite a lot of things to help. The big thing is the devolution of power. And people have talked to Number 10 North as a gimmick. I can assure you it's going to be anything. But we are going to take power out and put it into the hands of mayors. And I know they are best placed to drive growth at a local and a regional level. The economy, the budget, consumer finance, everything we've just talked about. It's a tough gig, isn't it?

38:50Felicity Hannah:What keeps you awake at night? Well, pretty much all of it. But there's also so much to deal with that you're kind of ready to retire when it comes to the end of the day. There's huge challenges, but I'm optimistic about the country's prospects. I do feel we can get growth in every postcode and hope in every postcode. I think there's a sort of pent-up wish amongst so many people to see the country moving forward again and a greater sense of positivity and unity in all parts of it. I feel that's there and I've sensed this on the tour that I've started here in Ilkeston today, you know, very much pick it up from the people who are trying to turn this town around.

39:33It's a case of just building on it, bringing more and more of that spirit to what we're doing.

39:39Felicity Hannah:Are you growing the economy on vibes? No, if I'd have tried that in Greater Manchester I would have got nowhere and I didn't try that. This idea that I don't know how to get growth going, well just go and visit Greater Manchester and you'll see the change there. So I know what makes the difference, I've set up a vehicle to deliver it in Number 10 North. I do believe we can, 10 years after Brexit and all of the changes that brought, I think the time is right for everybody to start facing the same way, pulling the same direction, get some positivity going around this country, help it believe again and hope again.

40:19That's what my period in office will be all about.

40:22Felicity Hannah:Prime Minister Andy Burnham speaking to Wake Up To Money there. A lot of you, as I knew you would be, getting in touch with your thoughts on this. Somebody who doesn't give their name says, no one wants you to promise the earth we'd just like you to do something that would help, like reduce business rates properly and reduce national insurance. But you won't, will you? Susie on social media has got in touch with a very specific suggestion. She says he needs to review DVSA fees. Driving tests and MOTs have not gone up in years. Loads of money to be made there. And Deborah in London says, I'm afraid Andy Burnham's constant harking back to Manchester is getting old.

40:59Felicity Hannah:Manchester is not the UK and he sounds like he's just moving the deck chairs around on the Titanic. He has a lot of faith in mayors, but it depends how good and dynamic they are. Keep your thoughts coming before the end of the programme 85058. But let's hear what businesses think of it. Joining me now is Abdul Perani, co-founder of Chaiwala, which is an Indian street food cafe franchise. More than 100 cafes in the UK, Canada and Dubai. Abdul, good morning. Good morning. And still with me, of course, is Max Rees from the Protein Fibre Snack Brand, the curators, and Anna McDonald, Investment Strategy Director at Hargreaves Lansdowne.

41:37Felicity Hannah:Abdel, first of all, your reaction then to what we heard there from the Prime Minister? Yeah, I don't believe, I mean, I understand his positivity and he's new in the job and everything else, but I don't think there's enough. I mean, accumulation of small things is not enough for businesses like ourselves. we need immediate action. I mean, I know we talked about the oil pressure decreasing over time, but we need something now. I mean, businesses like ours, restaurants, cafes, you know, these are being hit, and simultaneous spikes in, you know, our two biggest outlays, food ingredients and staff wages.

42:18And, you know, you've touched on that earlier, and, you know, we've seen food prices go up, you know, And it doesn't help with the cost of living crisis because we are under pressure to absorb these costs. And at some point they will sort of come into our menu prices. And in addition, you know, the increase in staff wages and natural insurance has put immense pressure on our businesses. I mean, if you look at sort of margins we work on and having this sort of pressure does, you know, amount to impact in the business overall. And, you know, we try our hardest to try and contain the price increases on menu because we understand how difficult it is out there for consumers.

43:13You know, there is real pressure out there in the real economy. And, you know, we try our best. But at some point, you know, I mean, I know Max touched on the oil price impact in logistics. And that's huge. I mean, you know, the cost of distributing goods around the country has, you know, increased our operational costs. So, yeah, as much as we talk about some more changes, the impact on overall on the economy with respect to inflation and staff wages, and now we expect the expiry of the pandemic era of business relief, and that's going to add more pressure, coupled with the volatility of utilities as well on the business, which has been going on for a while.

44:08We've had a tremendous amount of headwinds of recent years.

44:12Felicity Hannah:Max, how are you feeling listening to Abdul's list of headwinds? Is that pretty much what you're seeing? Yeah, I've just got nothing but sympathy and experienced a lot of it within our business, even though we're not a retailer or a food service operator. we have all the same pressures i mean when even as a consumer when me and my wife go into a restaurant and i see the you know the menu costs rising and rising i am the biggest defender of people understanding what is driving that that's the thing even if as a consumer it's difficult for me to kind of accept conceptually you know how much i might be paying for something now because it's there is so little margin there always has been in the food industry and these these changes over the last few years and the inflationary pressures are just making it so hard to trade.

45:01Felicity Hannah:Anna, what do you think about the sort of the positivity that we're hearing from the Prime Minister? You know, that sort of he's travelling around the UK. He's saying that he wants to listen to people. He's talking about growth in every postcard, every postcard, every postcode. Is there a sort of, has he perhaps learned some lessons from what happened when the former Prime Minister Keir Starmer came into power and was quite gloomy about the situation that he'd inherited from the previous government and perhaps made people feel, oh, better not spend too much. Yeah, I think that, yes, looking back on how Starmer talked about the terrible mess that we were in was not helpful, followed by the changes on the fuel allowance.

45:49I think, though, Andy Burnham is right to concentrate on growth. I've started to think this isn't really a cost of living crisis. This is a cost of not growing enough crisis. This is a cost of not earning enough. And if economic growth remains so stagnant, we're always going to be having difficulty finding room to manoeuvre. We're always going to feel that we can't afford things. So in the budget, what we need is some certainty. It would be good if we can do things, encourage wealth, encourage investment. So don't try and just – I think it's difficult to tax your way out of it. I'm in Scotland.

46:36We've got devolution in Scotland. And it seems that we've reached a point where we do pay a higher – the top rate of tax is higher than it is elsewhere in the UK. and it has now been shown to be actually detrimental to tax takes. So I think to have some proper growth policies which have what we call a multiplier effect. So they do involve spending, infrastructure, housing and things like that but what they return for every pound invested they return more than one pound of growth and there are industries and areas and I hope that we can start to really think about that. I mean, for example, housing is something that we could, if we can get that going, that is a boost, not only to all of the affordability of housing, but it's also a boost to the economy.

47:26Felicity Hannah:It's hard, though, isn't it? Because for a government to get spending, if they're going to do that through borrowing rather than through taxation, then immediately the bond markets react and suddenly government borrowing costs rocket as well. Um, it's, it's true, but I think that if you can, there are certain ways of talking about infrastructure spending that are, are not going to, as it were, scare the horses in, in, in terms of costs. And we've been doing some work at Hargreaves Lansdowne, in fact, about we surveyed 2000 people who said that actually they not for patriotic reasons, but if with the right incentives, for example, they would support a defense, a security bond, national security bond.

48:10They would pay for it out of cash. They wouldn't sell other investments. So there are and you know, and you wouldn't have to you'd be able to get a better. You wouldn't have to pay the same interest rate if you could provide those long term incentives. So I think there are ways of being creative that don't just involve really testing the amount that we are taxed because we are taxed quite a lot already. And I think that there are ways of thinking about it that are creative and imaginative and can actually get the economy growing.

48:41Felicity Hannah:Abdul, what would get you growing? What could the government do that would encourage more growth from your business? well at the moment we're you know we're in a compounding cycle you know everything is sort of adding so i mean what can the government do immediately i mean i talked about that earlier in terms of you know the we talk about the business rate relief you know there is talk of you know kind of he talks of the high street and you know improving the the conditions there but like i said I mean, we need immediate action. I mean, I'm not, you know, talking about increasing taxes and putting back money.

49:20You know, it's a cycle here. But, I mean, what we would expect is, I mean, there's been an announcement on pubs and music event halls, etc., getting some sort of relief. And we're not seeing that on our side of the business in terms of the restaurants and things. And so, you know, there does need to be more done on that. I mean, I know there's inflationary pressure and, you know, we're seeing a lot of things out there. And we want to make sure that, you know, we help and we are positive, but the government does need to take immediate action, like I said, on things like business rate release and, you know, constantly increase.

50:08I mean, we understand there's a cost of living in terms of the living wage, etc. We absolutely support that. But, you know, businesses like ours, you know, when we're constantly getting increase in national insurance and minimum wage, it does put a lot of pressure on our already challenging margins that we have in our business.

50:31Felicity Hannah:Max, what would get you growing? I think following on from that, just make it cheaper, more efficient to employ people, to employ young people. We haven't brought up AI today, which is a nice, refreshing change. But where there is going to be so much stress on the labour force and people being made redundant through automations, all this stuff, encourage businesses to employ and train and develop young people, all people. And ultimately, that will stimulate growth in the economy. We've had a message from someone who says the government needs to cut spending. It needs to actually govern and take some tough choices rather than just telling us they're facing tough choices.

51:07Felicity Hannah:We know that. Stop taking even more money from people who've worked hard to earn it. Thank you. Mike also says, I listened to Burnham. I had a little hope before, but now I know he's the same as Starmer, another waffler. I suppose, Anna, the big test is going to be in the budget. Yes, absolutely. And Healy faces some difficult choices. We know that he resigned as defence secretary because he couldn't get the budget that he wanted. Now he's a number 11. How is he going to be thinking about that? And how is he going to be responding to what is a five billion gap in defence spending and all the other pressures that he's got to face up with?

51:52And I think I've got some sympathy with the messenger before who said, you know, we do need to take difficult decisions around spending as well, because that is it. We are in the interest rate costs are very, very high. The benefits bill is very high. There are things that need to be done that aren't going to be easy to do, even with that big majority.

52:13Felicity Hannah:We're going to have to leave it there. We could talk all morning, couldn't we? Anna McDonald from Hargroves Lansdowne. Max Rees from the curators. Abdul Parani from Chai Wallet. Thank you all so much for your thoughts. Thank you for all your messages. One last one from Mickey in Leeds. Hi, Flick. How does the moon cut his hair? Eclipse it. Oh, dearie me. Wake up to money. Listeners, that's it for Wake up to money. Wake up to money from BBC Five Live.

52:55Felicity Hannah:This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days. Conspiracy theories and the Football World Cup. Is there ever one without the other? Well, I've been digging into one of the very best back in 1994. The guy from Iraq gets a red card for a dubious tackle. I'm James Montague, and from BBC Five Live, This is Sports Strangers Crimes presents Shadows on the Pitch. Listen on BBC Sounds.

53:47Challenges that test our limits. There is a place where we can find answers. Where journeys break new ground and connections unlock opportunities. Where innovation can spark real change and our actions can push our world forward. Singapore, where business events can create lasting impact.