All About Apple Vision Pro!

37:08Multiple timers. So like a pot could have like a five minute timer. Boiling water timer, oven timer. That's exactly what she did in the video. She put it over the two different things. It was cool. But at the same time, you could just cook. Which we've been doing for thousands of years. Let him cook. Let him cook. So this is the thing. There are lots of instances where it's like, you could just do it the way you've always done it and i feel like it's a lot more effort i know all of these things on top of your world but the promise of how great it could be if there was a lighter better version of this headset is amazing okay so did you see this on twitter there's like a vacuuming uh app yeah and it was literally yeah it literally have you seen this i've seen this it literally just looks at what you're vacuuming and will highlight it so that you know where you haven't wait i can complete the level of your house i can explain it to ellis where he'll probably understand.

37:59Have you ever watched Power Wash simulator games? Yo, I need this. You haven't seen that? No, no, I know what you're talking about. Just like, I'm so bad at maintaining the grid pattern when I vacuum. This is exactly what you need. This is like... Should grade you after also on your lines. Yeah, like the Mr. Beast touch app thing. Here's another one. While we're talking about possible killer apps, there was a render somebody made of like watching an F1 race. Hold on, I'll pull him up. He DM'd this actually. Okay. So you know how hard it is normally to watch an F1 race? So you're just looking at the camera feed and it's just cutting back and forth between a bunch of different like placement races.

38:31But you don't really see the whole track. You don't know what's going on and where they are. So there was this render somebody made. I don't think it's a real app. John Lepore. Okay. At Johnny Motion. So they had essentially the whole track layout on the coffee table. So you could see where all the cars were on the track, who was pitting, where the races were happening, and feeds of the different races happening around the track. Yeah, I think he was watching the TV of the general feed, and then his coffee table had the track with all those. Yeah, I forget if it was. I think it was cars. Yeah.

39:00Or at least just like where each number of each person was. That would be better than the current way. Did he actually make this? I think it's a render. It's a render. Hold on. Let me find it. So you can see it. Yeah, it's really cool. This was posted on the Formula One subreddit, and everyone was like, their normal app doesn't even work. There's zero chance that Formula One's actually gonna... Look how sick this is. That's dope. That stuff that I keep seeing on social media of like cool ideas people have, that feels like that's exciting for the future of this form factor. Yeah. We're just not there yet.

39:35I do think app developers should start making these apps now, even though there's a chance that this form factor doesn't work out because five years down the line, they're gonna be on Vision Pro 2 or 3. And I don't know. I mean, a big argument that people are making notably Netflix, YouTube, and Spotify are not on Vision Pro apps. And the kind of funny thing about that is that all iPad and iPhone apps automatically got ported to be working on Vision Pro unless you specifically opted out, which means that they intentionally were like, no. And so you're making a decision that you don't want to be on this new platform, right?

40:15But it makes a lot of sense to be in this new pair. I completely lost my train of thought, so I think you should just back up. Wait, no, no, hold on. And I totally forgot. But I kind of wanted to go off that because you mentioned iPad apps. Yeah. And there is an Instagram app on this, right? I'm excited about the age of dashboards. If that's like the only contribution we really get out of this whole thing is that like we get more cool dashboards, like the way you were describing the F1, right? So that's essentially a dashboard with all these different stuff on it. Yeah, because it had like, it also had the leaderboard and it had like different ways you could place it with it.

40:48the cooking pot timers. It's also a dashboard. I think the fun thing is that we just like, there are so many things that we can't imagine yet that you could do in spatial stuff. And so people are way more creative than we are and are going to make things that blow our minds over and over again. Yeah. I feel like this is going to be great when the form factor is the meta glasses. Yeah. And right now it's just, but also when the form factor is the meta glasses, you know what you don't need? a screen on the front to show your eyes. That's a very good point. And I think that's why it's, okay. And I'm probably gonna say this at some point in the review, but I'm pretty sure Vision Pro is the first time Apple's done a first-gen product with the word Pro in the name.

41:33Yeah. I think the first thing you do on your Apple is make a non-Pro with no eyes, right? You mean after this? After this, yes. So you have Vision Pro. It's got the eyes on the outside, and then you have Apple Vision, and it doesn't have the eyes and it's missing a couple other things, but it's cheaper because that's less parts and you can make a smaller, cheaper thing. But the idea will be the absolute best version of this is the closest to see-through glasses. And you keep going further and further towards see-through glasses until you can finally actually do see-through glasses and you don't need the screen anymore, I think.

42:07I feel like my argument against that would be is there a reason for the eyes coming through is that it lets you be less disconnected from reality and lets you be that. So then why would you not have that on the version that more people are supposed to have and be using in the real world? That's fair. I don't think that's something they would get rid of. I think they'll have Vision Pro 2 and then also release regular Vision, and it'll just use the older technology. You know what's a real bummer about this whole thing? That a major Apple display manufacturer and supplier didn't just announce a bezel-less micro-LED transparent screen.

42:45well there's a lot of they started development on this a long time ago i know well the joke is they did do that yeah i got that joke nice i didn't cool oh no but i think i think maybe that is the marriage between the meta glasses and the um and the the traditional vr scape is like like as micro led transparency gets way way cheaper yeah um you know it wouldn't be that hard to map the perspective of everything. Yeah, yeah. Or you could just see Marquez's actual face through here, but there could be a... Exactly. There could be OLEDs that are lighting up in front of him that he's able to see. Like that LG transparent TV.

43:26Well, no, I was specifically thinking of the Samsung one. But wouldn't the issue in that be is if it was just... Is that all the things he's seeing out, you would also see coming back in? You would also see, yeah. So? Well, then it's like hard for me to like see... his eye like this is trying to make it see so like he still has all these things but then he can connect with somebody where that would be i'm seeing all these things and they're looking at me but those things are still like a micro windows in my eyes and like blocking my eyes i think i see what you're saying i feel like if there was something blocking the person marquez was trying to connect with that he wouldn't be able to see them anyway so there'd be no point in trying to make eye contact whereas if he moved it out of the way of his eyes but even if it was i don't know why I'm arguing this so hard.

44:14But like, so Marques could have me looking straight at him, like, right? Like you're looking at me right now. You can have windows here, here, here all around me, right? And I'm just seeing your eyes. But to him, since it's such a small glass, if it was just that, I would just see all these things and it would probably be blocking his eyes. That's a good point. And Samsung at their micro LED display demonstration did not let anyone see it from the back. So I have no idea what it's like from the other side. Yeah. No, it is real. I mean, it's not real. Maybe. Come on, Samsung. LG is actually shipping.

44:47LG is real. Samsung didn't say theirs was necessarily shipping. But LG's OLED from the back is a lot less transmissive when it's clear. It's like it looks sort of like fuzzy and like darker and I don't know. Shades. All right. All right. Well, what else do you want to know? More questions. Someone is asking if you can use virtual display thing on a Windows PC. No. obviously not um i thought that question before so fair to them i thought it was a great question to be fair marquez before said to mirroring a computer and i was like computer yeah that's exactly no way like you get all the best things with an apple computer but you should be able to just have a display up of your windows on the side yeah yeah they would probably sell more because they're like isolating out well at the same time the entire point of the vision pros you have all your apple apps in your headset does the quest pro do windows yeah Okay.

45:40Yeah. I think it only does Windows. No, it definitely does Mac. It does Mac, but it definitely seems like the Windows is what they advertise. Yeah. And the Mac is like, you can use this if you really want. They're heavier into Windows for sure. Go ahead. This is just kind of my own question, and I'm pretty sure I know the answer to, but I guess your way around, remember before you wanted multiple Windows from your Mac? So if you have, say, Final Cut open, but you want a Safari window open, would you just do Final Cut and then pin a Safari app off to your right? and then you would still have it.

46:10But can you only type in that Safari app then with your eyes and virtual keyboard or can you still use your... You can use your real keyboard. So I could have Final Cut open. I could have iMessage over here. I could have Safari. So as long as it's an app, you can add extra windows. Effectively, when you look at it, it switches focus, right? And then starts typing. And then your keyboard works on there. The annoying thing about that though is sometimes I'll be typing something and then someone will start talking to me and I'll finish my typing as I'm talking to the person. Because I don't need to be looking at my computer because I know how to touch type.

46:45But you just can't do that. You can't multitask. That's really funny. You can't multitask because your attention is what you are computing. You are not allowed. You can't multitask. That's like you're going to have like a pop-up ad or something in Safari and then you're just going to divert your vision and not realize you were like typing half a sentence in there and now you've lost it in your first application. But I'll have this all extremely well laid out in the review, because I think it's the most unique aspect of computing on the Vision Pro. Is the like looking or? Is the fact that your attention is your task.

47:15Only that, only your task. It's like great for multitasking, but at the same time, it's basically impossible to multitask. You can't multitask. Yeah. I mean, you can have things happening in the background. You can have Apple Music off to the side playing music. You can have, but like, yeah, yeah, it's one at a time. Yeah, but that's not, music playing in the background it's not really like what you're paying attention to it's just ambient yeah yeah there is some when you have when you're facetiming with someone else in the vision pro and you get their weirdo polar express persona it's so funny actually that's the closest bird it does look like the polar express can you is it a set size window of them or can you have can i be giant if you're talking to me Can I be a giant floating head you're talking to?

48:04Okay. So when I'm wearing the Vision Pro and I'm in FaceTime, my FaceTime experience is my camera feed is just my persona. And what I see is floating glass-like windows of everybody else on the FaceTime, whether they're a webcam or another Vision Pro persona. I can then drag the entire thing bigger to make those windows bigger. Okay. And what's kind of amazing about this is you can put them across the room on the wall. You can move them to the right and to the left. And the thing that they see when you move it is accurate to the angle that you just moved it to. So if I put the Vision Pro window on the ceiling, they will see the top of my persona's head.

48:43If I put it behind me, you will see blank because my persona only has a front. I can't tell if I like that or not. Well, I think, so this was gonna bring me up to my next point, which was when we FaceTimed him on your computer, David, the other day, where we were just a regular. So you saw a window of David's webcam. we saw a window of your persona. And I think that makes sense if you're talking to other personas. But for us, when you turned around or literally got out of the box, you just disappeared. Which is what would happen if you were on a normal computer too. Also true. I guess, but it makes it feel like the whole point of this is that it is now strapped to your head and you could potentially walk around in FaceTime, but that would not work because you would leave the window.

49:23So if you have the window really, really big, far away on the wall across the room, you can kind of walk around and always be in. Is that what we would see? We should test that to see, are you smaller than in that window? The thing is, yeah, if I'm FaceTiming with my mom, but I want to go into the kitchen to grab something, I don't want to disappear out of the frame. Even though I know that's what would happen on a computer, I also could carry my computer to the kitchen. Or your phone. My phone. You carry your phone around as you're walking through your apartment. You do one of these. And also, this is supposed to be better than this.

49:52The whole time, just take them with you. You drag it. I guess. I mean, I think that Apple's trying to make it feel as close to an actual computing experience as possible. Because for example, when we were FaceTiming you, I was using my laptop, which is to the left of me because my main display is in front of me. So you did see the side of my face. And that's exactly what would happen if I saw if you had your window pinned to the side of your face. So technically it is exactly how a computer would work. It's just not, in my opinion, like the ideal form of how I want to interact with you. One major downside, you can't show anything to the camera because it's just your face.

50:29I saw you do this and only your hand showed up. Yeah, so when you move your hands around in front of the headset, it does actually render a pair of hands that match your skin tone, which is kind of neat, but I obviously can't show things to you even though I could hold something up. That's a huge downside. Yeah, wait, can you not flip the camera around and show what you're looking at? You can do that. You can do that. You can hit a button and show my view and then I can show you something. Okay. I bet that's why it's a window with your persona and not just a floating persona because then that would look weird if you flipped around and then it would have to like not be a perfectly shaped head and then be now a square that shows you know it's funny a lot of people were complaining because they're like well normally when i'm on video meetings i can be on other tabs and stuff and they don't know but now if i'm on if i'm like looking in another direction or on another tab that'll be a lot more obvious but i guess if you're using your phone you could just kind of like put it in front of you and they wouldn't be able to see that's true that's true I don't know.

51:25You know, it's funny. You can also make eye contact with individual people in the FaceTime. What do you mean? So if I'm FaceTiming three people and in my Vision Pro, I look at one of the people, the other two people see slightly off axis because I'm only making eye contact with one of the people in FaceTime. I realize that that is more like reality. But that also makes it hard to do a presentation. Yeah. I also want to just go back like two steps on when we were saying like, well, if you're looking off to the side that's what a computer and a phone would be but like this isn't a computer and a phone i feel like we should have this step extra of being able to like i just want to go walk to another room and not have to leave the camera it just should have my face yeah anyways yeah do it's 3500 but i think they want it to feel intuitive to like as normal as possible i'm not saying that makes it better yeah i'm just saying that their mindset and i assume is let's make this as like not different as not having a vision pro as possible can you connect it to a phone or an ipad the way that you use it with a mac to see the ipad screen yeah no no you can do the other way around i can uh i can mirror what i see onto an ipad okay but i cannot like virtual ipad onto my screen okay yeah but you've got ipad apps everywhere anyway so just real quick yeah we're about it about an hour yeah i feel how do you feel i'm approaching the furthest i've ever gone without taking the headset off like consecutively i feel fine fine um the the number one thing that's most annoying to me is the weight on my cheeks is starting to get heavy and also we haven't talked about this very much but the field of view of this headset isn't actually super wide it does feel like you've had ski goggles on yeah it does feel like my peripheral is like bottled a little bit and i normally on this podcast will just look over and glance at adam and ellis i now have to fully look over because the edge of my peripheral is like like i can't see you i want to put them straight up now and we can't see you be cognizant of that because when i used it before i didn't realize that yeah i bet you that it was like that i just didn't really notice 100 it's it takes a couple uses before you start like poking around the edges and realizing how limited it is probably because you weren't in a scenario you're extremely used to where you like marquez is in a spot right now where he does that all the time and then notices it's not the same as that so you were probably just using it out there and like yeah didn't try to do this i was in apple's demo space and i didn't have to look at anybody well yeah and you weren't like in a in a like if you were at your desk and i said like hey david and like you turned around like that's something you do every single day where if you tried to do that in that scenario it'd be like something was different about that yeah that reminds me that my guys just turned like 180 to look at me um david mentioning you you guys had demos with this yeah multiple demos which we spoke about previously but when you first set up the headset and put it on does it give you like a tour on how to use it i don't remember asking no it doesn't right no you only know how to use it because you went to the demo nope wait i so the only so the here's here's what happens when you first get it number one thing is you put it on and it says hold the digital crown to align your eyes you hold it down and it physically moves the lenses in place to match your eyes then the second thing that happens is you go around this series of dots where it says look at the dot and then pinch your fingers together to select it and that's a calibration process but that's actually also you learning that whatever you look at is what you're selecting okay does a few rounds of that then you scan your hands like this and then you're in and the app drawer is there and you're free i'll say i i did try it very briefly i was in your guest mode but at that point the only way we did is you basically allowed everything in the guest mode so i didn't go through the full setup where i had to do my face but i did all the tapping and hands yep it's crazy intuitive i was super super impressed by it but it literally is just like yeah you hold it it changes where the like the lenses the space where the lenses are so you can see clearly then like a hexagon of dots comes up and you just look at each one and press them and when all of them press it goes to another set of it it's doing it in different brightness levels to try and gauge i guess what's the best but it holds you to press your fingers together right like yeah and then you just like tap and then you go through that and then you're kind of just in the space and then you're like yeah oh and the app drawer shows up and it was very intuitive i was just like moving things around it does a good job but when you start looking at things like the corner where you would drag it out where the bar like highlights it for a second.

56:04And yeah, it's also - It is a good point though, that they don't have any sort of like tutorial. It was just interesting to me because even on the phone, there's like so many things you can long press and a new action will pop up that I didn't know was there forever. I wonder how often it's gonna happen. There is a lot of hidden UI. I mean, Apple has done that before, right? Didn't they not tell anyone about 3D Touch? No, 3D Touch got launched, but like there are still things in Vision Pro apps where I will long press and go, oh, I didn't know that had an option. How did you find the control center thing?

56:32Only because they told you about it? Yeah, because they told me about it. So the fact that you have to stare up at the ceiling to find control. Oh, really? I didn't know that. The only way you can access control center is by looking straight up and seeing this little arrow. And then you tap it. And then it comes down into your view. When I was using it, I saw the arrow. And I just thought that meant, like, bro, they aren't anything up here. Look down. They don't want you to use control center. I'm very curious if, like, the consumer version of these that people start getting is going to have. This is a consumer version.

56:58They went all the way down also. Yeah, but it's also a review unit. There's no error. I thought I saw an error when I was down. They're always consumer versions. Unless they're like alpha, like not. We got like a version that people will be getting in stores. Yeah, this is what people will get. But there is a 10-minute guided tour of Apple Vision Pro on Apple's YouTube channel that has surprisingly six and a half million views. Also true. Which is crazy because it's a lot more views than usually get. And am I correct in saying that, can you get this delivered to your house or do you have to go pick it up at an Apple store if you purchase it right now?

57:28You can get it delivered, but the Apple store does have like this experience that they're going to give to people. Yeah, so I would assume there's somewhat of a tutorial in that aspect of what, because you have to, like the slots, when people were buying them were filling up fast. So I'm assuming they are dedicating time to each of those slots. Man, shout out to, this episode comes out on the second, right? Shout out to all the Apple employees. If you're on your way to work today, I'm sorry. It's gonna be a rough one probably the next week. big kudos to all of you guys and stay strong it's gonna be a long one it's funny how much like the more we talk about it the more i kind of want it just to play with but i the more i also know that it will just be kind of a paper there's a perfect reddit comment for this that i have to find while you're finding that uh question that i have actually hit me have you tried regular earbuds with it that are not airpods no but you can so you can pair bluetooth headphones directly to the vision pro yeah you won't get um i think it's just spatial audio but also the latency low latency i want to know if that low latency actually matters because if you have anything but the newest usbc airpods pro there is a lower latent there's a higher latency but i want to know like does that actually really change anything yeah i was using the virtual mac display and then using my wired headphones plugged into the mac and even that latency was low enough and totally fine so again i'm not doing i'm not gaming or like doing anything super sensitive to latency so i'm and even then it's just audio latency so i'm not actually really minding i want to play dota on a massive screen in that and see if the audio latency bothers you no just to play it for sure on the version pro and see if the bandwidth is high enough to like update that game fast enough yeah because native on mac so yeah that's a yeah i want to play some sort of game or something i feel like a first person shooter would just not work the funny thing is like people like games like csgo pro players will actually get really small screens because they they don't you don't want to have to turn your head at all you want to be able to do everything in your peripherals it is confusing though because there are people who despite having 24 is usually like the standard for that which is like small in the computer world these days but then they like put their nose to it so they do kind of have to like they put their nose against the screen look if you look up some like pro cs players or over uh valorant players they are like touching this screen it's wild um but yeah i would like to try playing some games yeah it sounds really cool yeah um okay wait this is the comment i saw on our apple on our unboxing video they just said do i want one no do i want to play with one for an hour or so yes do i need it no no no absolutely yeah that's a very fair enough that could be the title for one of the videos yeah i want to play with it for a a couple hours, but I don't want to spend$3 ,500.

1:00:19Exactly. It's like the, you guys were asking before, how long do you think you're going to continue to use Vision Pro after the review process is over? What are you going to use it for? You can use it every day. Are you going to stop using it? What's going to happen? Yeah, are you going to use it? I think my main analysis so far is it still feels like a fun toy that I would break out every once in a while, but I still also think there are a couple of things that are amazingly fun on it that I would want to use it for. Namely, the thing I keep talking about, which is on an airplane, using my mac on a plane watching a video on a plane i cannot wait for the 16 hour flight i have coming up in a month to just watch videos on the plane and not even think about what's around me yeah that's gonna be great uh and i think also when some new games and fun stuff starts getting announced not necessarily killer apps but i think really much more fun apps i'll you should wear this headset for the entire 16 hour flight 16 hours is probably too much i'm probably gonna want to sleep during that flight well but if you were able to get a business class seat you could lay down and have screens on the ceiling yeah absolutely i could have sky guide i could have sky guide on the ceiling and then i could look out the window of the plane and pick the constellations out of the sky and bring them into the cabin and stare at them damn we live in the future i just want can you when you see the flight attendant coming with your first drink while you're wearing this can you screen record we won't post it anywhere because i don't want to like post it there, but I just want to see it from here.

1:01:42Yes. When I record videos on the outside, tell me what color this turns. So I'm gonna take a video. I mean, I can see like - I can see your eyes. 10 % of the screen. So I'm recording a video now. What does that look like? Oh, I've seen this. It's like white flat. It's pulsing white. This is just like the new meta Ray-Ban glasses. It's just like a blinking kind of a white glow. No part of it screams I'm recording right now. I do not think this is a good way of showing your recording. I mean, it's better than the original Google Glass, which didn't have any indicator. That's what killed it, in my opinion.

1:02:19It should be red blinking 100%. That's like the only thing that screams, I am recording. This should say, I'm recording across the screen. Literally, if that was white and blinking and I was the steward or stewardess, I would have no idea. No, not a chance. Yeah. I record a spatial video. so it does like the knockoff nest cam thing where it's like hi you are being recorded i'm thinking the like the like convenience store screen that just scrolls letters across it that just says you are being recorded and just keep scrolling endlessly yeah that'll be awesome also okay so you know those those memes that keep showing up which are they make perfect sense they're like your mom i know what you're talking about 1993 was like don't look too closely at the TV and then in 2020 we strapped the TV to our face.

1:03:05Yeah. the weird thing about that is technically the focus distance of my eyes is further than it would be if if a screen was up close to me. Yeah, because you're looking. Because of the lenses. Right. So the way the lenses work, and I guess if I wanted to explain the way eyeballs work, like they literally are changing their shape when you focus at something further away. My focus distance is further now and less fatiguing now than if I had a screen super close to my face. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Not to ruin the meme, but that's just, yeah. Keep me focusing on things. That's the whole reason that Tim Cook, when he comes on stage, he says, the Vision Pro is the first device that we don't look at, but through.

1:03:44The eyes on the outside look like the sloth from Ice Age. Yeah. Yeah. Like your eyes look like further apart and they're not always quite looking at the same thing. And yeah. Yeah. The last hand the line. I still really like it though. I actually prefer that. I definitely prefer this to not being able to see your eyes this whole podcast. I feel closer to me. 100%. I think if it worked. Correct. Like if it had a good. Okay. David can see both of your eyes. I've only seen one eye the entire time. He's straight at me so I can see both eyes. I do. You feel better now, Andrew? I feel weird only seeing one eye.

1:04:19No? You see his words? I feel like I'm making eye contact. You are. You're so stretched. I can tell. Are you making eye contact with me? Because I feel like I am. Yeah, and you are. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so it's technically working. I mean, it's not going to be perfect when you're slightly off axis, obviously. Maybe I'm just more comfortable making eye contact with slots than you are. Or with virtual reality headsets. In Finding Nemo, all the fish's eyes are on the front of their face. No, but I swear there was this one fish that had a really wide face that is what you looked like. It's so weird. And I also can't see all of it.

1:04:51That's what's so confusing. It's probably glary. It's not all glare. It's a viewing angle. Is lenticular film like you need light from the outside to be able to see it correctly? I think. if you're in it because the iphone for example the for the original nintendo game boy was it was it required reflections of light from the sun to be able to see it because there's no like backlighter oh right yeah on this can i see it better when there's a lot of ambient light i don't think so no i think it's if you imagine a film a literal hardware layer over the display yeah it is is refracting in a way that shows a different image to each of your eyes.

1:05:32So as you move in front of the display, it shows you different parts of the screen at the same time. I am glad they did that because it does look a lot better than just your eyes being pasted at the front of the vision. I think that's true. It would make it feel like your eyes are just jutted out. Yeah. Whereas actually it looks like it's around where it's supposed to be on your face. I think that's fair. Most of the time it does. There are some angles where it's still... I think that there's specifically an angle in the first impressions video we put out where it's kind of from under you a bit looking up and your eyes just look like they are in a totally different place on your face than they actually are.

1:06:05So it works in some cases. I feel like that's the whole mantra of this front screen is like it works 15 % of the time. It works in the perfect center. And I like make eye contact with you. And in that scenario, it is still about 50 % of what they showed off in all of the marketing material. Yeah. Yeah. Any other big questions that people had? Can you hot swap the batteries? Yes. You can buy an extra battery. And surprisingly, a lot of people don't know this. The only way to actually turn the Vision Pro off is to take the battery off. It'll just go into a standby mode if you take it off. But the only way to...

1:06:42Just like the AirPods Max, there's no on or off button. It just turns on when you put the battery on and it turns off when you take the battery off. Wait, so you cannot hot swap the batteries though. So you cannot hot swap this battery. What you can do is daisy chain yet another battery to this battery and hot swap that one while this one stays on. I know you can do that, but does Apple say you should do that? Oh, no. Yeah, that sounds like a serious fire. You can't like leave it running and replace the main latch battery. No, because the way you, David said take the battery off. I know a lot of people when he explained this to me the other day I was confused but everyone's thinking that taking the cord out of where the battery is it's taking the cord out of where the headset connects is how you can swap the battery but obviously that is not hot swap because then it turns off oh right oh hot swap you can't hot swap the battery yeah you can't hot swap you can plug a battery into the battery or the wall but be careful I wouldn't do that I wouldn't do that I would do that do that I wouldn't put another battery to go into this battery you would not that's the whole point would you read the manual of like anchor or any other who reads the manual nerd bro I think it's a battery dog uncontrollable fire my guy I love putting batteries on my face wow alright well before we give any more advice that will make your insurance rates go up Why don't we...

1:08:15I'm buying life insurance on Marquez right now.

1:08:21Alright. And we're back with another trivia round. Is this already incognito? Yeah, because it's just hopping around. I can't see what you're doing. Back here in the Meatverse, we're doing trivia. Do you guys want science or tech? I like science. Taylor's version. I don't know. That's all three different things. I'm okay with either. actually yeah points don't matter points don't matter okay I'm okay with either here's a question electrons have an intrinsic property called a spin in which two directions can an electron spin boom ba doom ba doom ba doom boom ba doom ba doom that's that's later I know that's fine we'll be right back I have some fun facts about electron spin Do you really just...

1:09:11You Google it?

1:09:17Of course. Why wouldn't I Google it? It's right here.

1:09:30This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

1:09:56Should I take this off? That's right. No, you gotta keep going. Keep it on for the whole episode. You think I should have it? Well, hold on. Let's... I want to see... I want to feel... I want you to feel pain. Can you... okay okay all right welcome back we are in our third and final segment i am still wearing the vision pro we are uh so in real time it's about an hour 20 an hour 20 um i will say now and i haven't really done that many tasks on the headset other than googling the trivia answers um wow but there is a little bit of warm air coming off the top of the headset you want to can you feel the warm air the headset the headset itself is not warm and it doesn't really get warm unless I'm doing a lot and Mac mirroring or whatever.

1:10:37But also, I never hear the fans and I never feel the hot air. The thing never actually gets hot on my face face. So that's my update. So the hot air doesn't come out of the headset, but it does come out of your mouth. No, the hot air comes like it leaks out of the top then. And there are real fans pushing it out. So an hour and 20 in, we're telling you to continue to put this on. Would you prefer right now to take it off? honestly i love that i can just google things okay well if you weren't cheating and trivia uh would you prefer to have this off this is the best i've ever felt after this long because of the headband i'm wearing so i'm fine if you were wearing this headband i there's no way i'd still have it on okay yeah for sure so the only reason to do that was if you don't want to mess up your hair or if you're going to use it for like five minutes exactly or if you're an apple retail store and you want it to look nice on the show looks nice yeah yeah it's nice that they give you both in the bag considering the travel carrying case is$200.

1:11:32Did you want to talk about the carrying case? Yes, thank you, David. Let me see this bad boy. We are so torn on us. Sorry, I need to bring this up. Can I see the little sleep mask thing? Yeah, this is just for like transport. I know, but I love it. I'm going to start with the positives of this carrying case. Andrew has some thoughts. Beautiful. Is this like Alcantara inside? Yeah, and it's like, feel it. Beautiful, soft, nice interior, adjustable to where the the goggles can sit right in there strap in wires battery place for everything great material good zipper awesome exterior strap that retracts back in when you're using it that's nice wow then it is made out of what feels like puffer jacket material that's been crumpled on my college dorm room floor for like four months while i neglect to do my laundry waterproof ripstop mesh that looks like it's been sitting on my college dorm room floor for 40 months without me doing my laundry sure how is it so wrinkly I agree the wrinkle is kind of bad the wrinkling is so bad the wrinkles kind of kill it you can be waterproof and ripstop without having this much wrinkle to it I really love the retractable bouncy band awesome somebody brought this up I think it was Christian Selig from xApollo and Pixel Pals I think he was like the Vision Pro can the band can push forward to the goggles could this not be half the size I was thinking that half of this opening is just so the band can be fully extracted on the back part Apple doesn't make that many carrying cases but the carrying case situation for AirPods Max is abysmal it's a bra but the thing about that is the headphones don't fold or attract in any meaningful way so there kind of is no good yeah way to compact it it's going to be huge no matter what you just need to take the damage yeah this as you mentioned like the back of the headset you can push it in and you can actually make it smaller you can take the band off even and make it even smaller but this carrying case assumes you just take it off and put it in and don't try to compress it at all yeah this takes up half the interior of my backpack that's a big actual vision pro takes up like a fifth of the yeah like this feels like not backpackable not packable yeah unless you have like or it's the unless it's 90 percent of yeah and then so like half of the size you could squeeze it in a backpack with maybe a couple other essentials of the things you want with you on a plane yeah it does feel substantial though like i people about the price two hundred dollars because let's be honest when you just hear a$200 carrying case, you're like, that's insane.

1:14:13I feel like this is deserving of the price. Maybe that's a hot take, but this feels like a$200 case. I'm not even joking. I think it's less of that it's a$200 case and more of it's a$3 ,500 headset that doesn't come with the case. It should totally come with it. Someone made the point that most of Apple's cases are 5 % of the retail value of the device. So the base iPhone 15 Pro is$1 ,000 and the case is$50, which is 5 % of the value. That's$200, which is about 5 % of$3 ,500. Damn. Is that just the math on like what we think we can get out of the customer? Maybe you think? I'm not sure. It's like how apps on iPad cost more because people with iPads have more money.

1:14:57And that's, I'm sure Vision Pro apps are going to be pricey. Yeah. I'm not sure if they're just like all of our cases are 5 % of the product price or if it's I mean that's clearly not the case because if you get a regular iPhone that's cheaper the case is still$50 I think but yeah for its pro ones I guess. I want to try and unwrinkle this. There's no way. It came wrinkled. I think I can. It literally came wrinkled in the bottom. If you'll allow me I want to try and unwrinkle this. I think you might do damage to it. You think I'll do damage to it? It's just a steamer. i don't think i'll let you steam it this okay i want to try and steam this and see if i can fix it and then it'll wrinkle in 45 seconds i want to say i really like this little like nanny granny like sleep mask that comes on the video to keep the glass protected it's funny because we didn't know about that yeah but then jenna ezaric made like a fake post when everybody else was posting them seeing it which is like an actual sleep mask and if you go back it looks almost exactly really yeah that's funny what is that baggie this is for your accessories so you're charging uh cable and brick and i also have the microfiber in here because this thing gets infinite fingerprints and it does have a little nick on the glass as well already yeah i mean you can't see it it's tiny but i have noticed it because we're shooting how'd you know there's a lot okay so here's the thing i can't do it because i'm still wearing it but picking up the vision pro is kind of a deliberate experience if you pick up by the like padding the padding it just magnet it magnetizes off it just falls off so you got to pick it up by the metal right which i imagine we've like you know clanked a phone up against it once or twice probably done other like multitasking things and scraped it so yeah by the time this pods out our last video will probably be out which then you'll know that brandon found a way with alex and myself to rig this onto a robot so maybe that's right brandon tweeted that oh he tweeted it okay yeah so we found out we had to build our own rig to connect it to the robot.

1:16:49Here's a question. You hate this. If you could buy just that, would you put that in your backpack? Like Vision Pro, just that. Oh, I think that's the better move. That's the only thing I care about. Yeah. It's protecting that. Protecting glass. Yeah. The inside lenses, I don't know how dangerous it is. Wait, it comes with this in the original box, right? That's not the case. Yeah, in the original box. Just checking. Yeah, it comes with it on it. Okay, yeah, then I probably... So you don't really need that. I guess you're only buying that if you're carrying it just by itself. So maybe that's...

1:17:17Does the dual loop strap collapse? Yeah. Okay. To a point. Maybe not as much because it still has a heart. But those buckles when they're collapsed could scratch the... I would know that is part of it. It's so weird. I would just put it in this. It's so weird. Your wide eye. Only one. I would put it in the accessory pouch. Does that come with it or does that in the... This is just in the Vision Pro carrying case. Oh. Yeah. for you oh i like that nice i have to be the only person in the studio that absolutely adores this case no i like it no i like it okay you too it's two hundred dollars well and it's too big i need the material it should be half the size it's wrinkled andrew and david are in the this wrinkly thing is dumb camp no it's just ugly i'm i think it's it's beautiful it's so sick you like that it's wrinkly i i don't love that it's wrinkly i love the ripstop material like that is the kind I have nothing against the ripstop material.

1:18:14I just don't like ripstop material that looks like poo because it's so wrinkly. It just reminds me of like the NASA font. Like it seems like you could have the NASA logo on there and it would definitely be a NASA product. It's like an astronaut suit. The Michelin man would love. I think my product, like if it eventually got wrinkly because you use it so much, but it's so wrinkly that the product photos on Apple's website are wrinkly. as a boy who spent my early years uh baking in the california sun and will when i am 80 years old look just as wrinkly as that bag i think in a little bit that'll fit me quite well yeah fair have you guys ever like painted a room or painted a house and you go and you get from home depot those like seven dollar paint suits like that that's what the material reminds me of that's way less cool than NASA well yeah and it's also why am I crazy for not believing the ripstop claim I think you could tear that with your fingers with your fingers I don't think with your fingers you can't tear it with your fingers now I also think ripstop in general can still rip pretty easily it's just less easy I have plenty of ripstop pants that are ripped from a good pricker bush or a good rock or something like that.

1:19:34Let me see what my finger is. It's better than regular material. We have ripstop mesh in the Adams as well. Nylon fabric that is woven so that a tear will not spread. Nice plug. Oh, ripstop. It doesn't stop the rip. It stops the... Wait, let me see it. It's woven? Well, if we're done with the case, I think we should talk about... Tax. Something else that Apple is charging people a lot of money for. Talk about taxes. Let's do it. Which is potentially the only other news article that came out this week. Yeah. Yeah, thanks. And is one that is extremely confusing. Yeah. To where I will. Sorry. No, no, no.

1:20:13You go. I'll just say to where I will preface this where David and I have both read multiple articles. I've listened. We have contacted multiple developers that we know. Christian, who I mentioned before being one of them. Nice enough to jump on a call this morning and help us. And he was confused. And he was confused as well. thing actually um and then we went to apple's thing but basically this is about the new eu third party and app tax that they will be charging due to passing eu laws we're prefacing this whole thing and i'm gonna let david probably jump into this and go into how this all works but we are a bit confused because there are different articles no no anything we get wrong is both of our thoughts um just kidding but there are lots of articles that say different things and are confusing in the way it words it so we're going to try and get this as best as we can but new ways apple is charging apps in the eu right what is happening okay yeah so uh the european union and apple have a very contentious relationship right now in many ways we've seen usbc uh now they are forcing apple to allow third-party app stores on the iphone uh because they see apple as a like gatekeeper of sorts the iphone and all mobile phones are basically like an essential device that everyone uses in their daily life so even though apple is this company that can generally do whatever they want the european union is saying well you need to do it in a way that is beneficial to consumers or at least like open to consumers and gives people choice so what they've done is they have forced apple to allow these third-party app stores but they've done it in the most um i'm gonna put my middle finger up at you, European Union, even though I...

1:21:56Like, malicious compliance. There's a great subreddit for this called r slash malicious compliance. Very fun. That's really funny. It's people, like, doing what they're told to do but in a way that is so freaking annoying. And that's what Apple is doing here. Sounds like people paying tickets in, like, pennies. Yeah. Just like, I'm paying. You're gonna fight for this. Exactly. It's gonna make your life harder to do the thing you're forcing me to do. So now, there are three different options that you as developer can do if you want to either one operate a third-party app store in the european union which is now forced by law or have your app on a third-party app store that you can access on the iphone notably uh fortnite has not been on the apple app store because tim sweeney is very against the 30 apple tax they got in a big fight uh the whole um epic versus apple thing started because Tim Sweeney basically broke the App Store Apple rules and introduced a third-party payment method within the Fortnite app on the App Store.

1:22:57So they got kicked off, never really resolved it. Now they're going to be able to offer the Epic App Store as well as their own third-party payment processing method on the iPhone in Europe only, which is really annoying. And one thing to note there is just because it's in the EU and me being a moron, so there's probably a couple other morons listening to this, where it's just like, there are developers in other countries, but they still have people in the EU using their app. So there are still portions of this app income that are going to be affected by this and how they want to work in the EU.

1:23:35Yeah, 100%. Okay, so three options. Option number one, nothing changes. You do literally nothing. You stay in Apple's App Store thing. They take 30 % cut. You don't have to think about anything. That's it. You're not changing anything. Cool. Option two, you completely leave the Apple App Store and you only put your app in third party app stores. So you don't have to pay the 30 % cut because you're not being published in the Apple App Store. But once you hit 1 million downloads per year, you pay 50 euro cents, which is there a word for that? Because we have dollars and cents. Is there? I'll Google it.

1:24:14It's cents. Cents. I like Euro cents, though. Well, then the conversion, though, is technically 54 cents USD. So just trying to make sure it's not exactly. Currently. Approximately 50 cents is what we'll save for the rest of this. Approximately 50 cents per user, per year. Sort of. Yes. The per year thing we'll touch on in a minute. Right. That was what was mostly confusing us this morning. So, yeah, you don't have to pay that 30 % cut. But then after you hit a million users, it's 50 cents per user. That could stack up very quickly. Um, and it's, it's per user over 1 million. So the first 1 million don't count after that.

1:24:53Yeah. They count. You guys may have had someone in your life that said, Oh, I moved into a different tax bracket. So I'm making less money now. And it's like, no, that's not how that works. They take a higher percentage of the, uh, it's additional, additional income. Yeah. Uh, there's a word for that. There is that I can't remember right now either. Anyway, option three, uh, you agree to the new terms and you're, by the way, once you agree to these new terms and say i want to offer my app in a third-party app store you're not allowed to say i want to go back to apple only it's irreversible talk about locking am i right that's irreversible that's specifically to discourage people from making this choice yes absolutely um but if you do that uh you actually only pay 17 to apple uh but then additionally after 1 million users, you also pay that 50 euro cent fee per user.

1:25:46So the tax that goes directly to Apple goes from 30 % to 17%, which is good. But if you're a very large app that has a ton of users, that 50 euro cents per user could stack a ton. Something that I was seeing flying around the internet that we're having a long discussion about this morning that was very misleading. A lot of people were saying an update counts as an install. It does not. your API. It sort of does. Sort of does. It can count as an install if you have not installed the app that year or if you have not updated the app. I think I read this enough where I can explain this part. Go ahead.

1:26:21Okay. So it's not that it's actually 50. I'm just going to keep saying 50 cents. I hope everyone understands what that means. 50 cents. It's not 50 cents per year, but it's 50 cents per new install per year. And you get a 12 month grace period in that. So if you install it after the 1 million users, it costs that company 50 cents. In a year, if you don't reinstall it, it's not another 50 cents. But if an update happens after that 12-month period, it counts as a reinstall and restarts the 12-month period. So some people were confused because they were like, well, every time I update this, I'm going to be charged another 50 cents per person who updates it.

1:27:02You can do it a bunch of times, but every single app is going to update at least once a year. So just assume it as every app is basically 50 cents per user per year over a million. And they do that crucially because if you basically saturated your app install market and you got like 10 million installs right away, but then you didn't even remotely get a million installs the next year, if they didn't have that as a thing, Apple wouldn't make any money. so they have to recharge you every year if you update your app at all yeah um okay so apple makes it a big deal that oh 99 of developers are actually paying probably less if they go through the third party app store because it's 17 and then they don't have that many people that's framing it's framing because crucially uh the top one the top one percent of app developers are on like 95 % of people's phones.

1:27:57Yeah. And will probably pay equally as much or more. A crap load of money. Like million, like$60 million. It's also weird because then it's making smaller developers hope that their apps don't get popular. In a way. If they're able to like compensate for it somehow. But yeah, if you have a free app that you don't really make money on and it gets popular and you have it in an exterior app store, you're screwed. Like you're gonna owe Apple a ton of money and unless you can like make money through ads or something, you're kind of just screwed. Christian was mentioning to us how like it's potentially harmful if you make an app and you don't convince the person to do the premium version, which subscribes, and then they have auto updates on.

1:28:39And now every year they just kind of forget about that app. And now you potentially have a bunch of users who aren't giving you the income from it, but now you're getting charged 50 cents per user per year. Yeah. And that adds up if you are on a larger app. Right. So it's very confusing, definitely on purpose, just to try to keep people in their regular app store system. And then there's a new set of taxes if you are trying to operate a third-party app store. So those were all for just developers that either wanted to be on just Apple's app store or both or just on a third-party app store. But if you say you want to make the Epic app store, which Epic definitely wants to do, this move is definitely just a giant middle finger to epic because of the whole trial thing um you don't get the one million user grace period so if you're operating a third-party app store no matter what you have to pay 50 euro cents per user install uh per year yeah so again we're saying per year assuming the whole actual 12 grace period which is just going to always be per year yeah i just want to make sure no one so this is this is what it feels like if you're epic not only do you have to pay 50 cents per user who downloads your app store at all but then you also have to give 70 17 of all commission from that app store to apple is i thought that was only if if they're still on the apple app store as well i think if they are only in their own third party then they don't have to pay the percentage?

1:30:15At all? I believe so. Okay. Well, I guess it is a little more confusing with that, but I think it's if you're on both, it's 17 % plus 1 million 50 cent. If you are just totally by yourself, I guess this is, you are creating the third-party app store, which I assume if you're creating the third-party app store, you don't want to be on the regular app store. This is how I feel. Anyway, this has created a lot of contention with developers. this week because it's just been it's so confusing confusing on purpose it's trying to keep people in there in their world garden on purpose and then there's a whole nother thing with like you can offer third-party payment methods as well so that's the thing where like i do think some this is the potential win-win for some companies some i think the verge use spotify as an example because spotify does not let you subscribe to them inside of the app because of the apple tax yeah so if they can now allow you to subscribe inside of the app but they're just going to be paying the 50 cents per user per year they will probably get the extra amount of revenue through subscriptions yeah and because it's easier and then the 50 cents per user per year is cheaper than the 30 tax on the reoccurring subscriptions something that some apps had done like uh twitter slash x had a way to they still have this you can subscribe to x premium in the app on the phone but it literally costs 30 more per month and they don't really tell you that very obviously but if you go and subscribe on a desktop then you pay 30 less every month which is insane um so now it would be nice if you know spotify let you subscribe in the app but they just said heads up it's going to be 50 cents more per month if you subscribe here versus i think even if they just do it normally like they're getting a better revenue out of it yeah or they're like making it up so it's still they they're okay with how much more revenue they'll get by people being able to subscribe in the app because it's easier versus paying that 50 cents yeah again this is also only the eu they're obviously people all over the place all over the world so it's like a lot but also a little to companies that are that big so yeah and then also apple is going to be making so much money off of spotify in that scenario if they're charging 50 cents per user epic is also specifically um they're prepping to challenge the changes because it kind of is a direct target at them i was also going to say the eu can still look at this review it yeah this is still ongoing it is surprising that apple is being this brazen against the european union a couple developers we talked to were basically like We are going to do nothing at first.

1:33:00Let it just keep riding the 30 % and let some other people be the guinea pigs on this and see if it winds up costing them less, how big of a difference it is, if it's worth the huge hassle. All of this kind of seems purposefully confusing and crazy to just hope that nobody makes any changes and just continues to eat the 30%. Yeah. That's definitely what they're hoping. I also realized David and I were going in on that for a while and I hadn't heard Marques and I was like is he listening and intrigued or is he inside of an app inside of the Vision Pro right now? I was playing Fruit Ninja. Anyway this is an evolving story as all of this Apple EU stuff has been.

1:33:42If anything Apple pissing off the EU even more makes it even more likely that maybe iMessage could be interoperable. That's exciting. in the future because the whole beeper thing really did start a ripple like senator senator elizabeth warren started tweeting about beeper which is not on my and then they all forgot about it and didn't beeper just totally shut down like everything they shut down their iMessage compatibility yeah rip win w but okay so yeah that was confusing david and i tried very hard probably a few things we got wrong please let us know if we did in a nice manner but do the research first because people say a lot of things at us and then we look it up we're not developers not true we don't know yet so thank you um how you doing marquez i'd marquez checked out a while ago i can see the blue glaze you're not true you need you need that app i was talking about your eyes are glazing over they literally mean it can we get a time update what's like 145 yeah there's an extra five on you yeah this band is way better man way better are you excited to take it off though yeah a little bit yeah making me want a vision pro but i know that i will not use it consistently you know there's one in the office soon too that won't be used as much that's i'm just out here like learning googling there is a really great comment on their reddit about another comment on reddit about how when you are in the unboxing the very first time you put it on you go this is really heavy yeah dude the difference between this solo knit band and the way it the way it's holding the weight on the front of your face versus the way this one takes so much of that weight off of your cheekbones is enormous have you ever thought of just like working out my cheekbones everything that's the thing all the jokes are like your neck strength your neck strength the only way I feel it on my neck is when I do that that's that's when i feel it on my neck your eye just like that yeah yeah yeah your eye just went all over the place all right my eyes everywhere apple fitness plus adds like a cheek muscle it's like how many reps of smiles can you do bro it's gonna add the f1 like neck pulling workout to end the podcast with me taking it off and seeing how many lines are on my face oh yeah we'll definitely do that we'll do that oh yeah but of course we should uh before we get to the trivia trivia dude yeah trivia yeah we should do that we should do that yes yes all right trivia quick update on the score quick update marquez cheated scores don't matter because marquez is cheating but check out the trivia extravaganza episode dropping next week bonus episode tuesday wednesday yeah tuesday wednesday whenever i'm done editing it so first question which legendary mobile device was more expensive at launch 1996's palm pilot professional or 2002's t-mobile slash danger marquez you dude he i'm like watching him cheat in real time.

1:36:53What's the other one? Yeah, sucks. What's up? Alright, well. You don't want to play my game? I'm not playing your game. Do you guys know the other one? You're just guessing the other one. Alright.

1:37:11I actually only know one of them, so I just wrote that one down. Just to spite you.

1:37:20Wait, I like your answer. My answer is quantum. Whoa. A, B, A and B. A or B. A. Correct. Are you saying that the same price? No. No. What are you saying? I'm saying that they're both or neither until you tell me the answer. And then it collapses. I know. Schrodinger's trivia class. Alice, my answer is in a super position. It is. It is. That's what I'm saying. Idiot. I'm going with the one megabyte Palm Pilot Professional, which retailed at$399. So annoying. I have the same answer without cheating. Next question. Electrons have an intrinsic property called a spin. Which two directions does an electron spin in?

1:38:27Just Google electron spin direction. Oh.

1:38:46Close. Safari. Okay. And? My answer is spin up or spin down, often denoted by negative Z or positive Z. Interesting. So what does the Z stand for, Marquez? Oh, that wasn't the question. But I can Google it right now. Andrew? I just drove forward and backwards. David? As electrons are in a quantum state. I hate this. I'm not. No, they're not. Yes, it is. No, they're not. Electron spin is in a quantum state. Until you observe it. Yes, I am. A particle's inherent angular momentum is parameterized by spin quantum numbers. Clearly. Wow. Exactly. Just right off the noggin. The answer was up and down for the listener.

1:39:35Yeah, I know. That's what I wrote. About electrons being quantum. So to identify spin direction, you determine the number of electrons the atom has. Then you draw the electron configuration for the atom. See electronic configurations for more information. then distribute the electrons using up and down arrows to represent the electron spin direction so wow back to reality you guys look way better in VR two hours wait what? I'm not used to seeing you without glasses on yeah no this is really eye opening in a stressful way literally thanks for watching thanks for listening thanks for spending time with us in or not in the Vision Pro.

1:40:17We have a lot more to talk about with a lot of this stuff, but until the next one, catch you later. Peace. Anyway. Alright. Wait, outros. Wait, can you outro in this scenario? Waveform is produced by Ellis Rovan and Adam Molina. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and our intro-outro music is by Vane Sil. Dang. It is so bright in here. That band mark on your head is pretty intense.

1:40:57There was a conversation that somehow went from cannibalism into... Yo's David.