Apple Vision Pro Turns One: Spatial Reality Check

28:00Because when you're a big development studio, you're like a big ship. You move slowly and expensively. And that sort of is where indie developers are supposed to come in, right? They can move faster. They can invest faster. They can get these things moving. And yet we don't see that. And I was super curious why we're not seeing that. And the answer was kind of interesting. Like, neither of them said developers are not being supported by Apple. But it all comes back to this user base cyclical issue. I think the main problem is the user base not being big, because then you don't have the big motivation to also...

28:44But usually you release an app, you bring out the first version, and then you iterate. You improve it, improve it, and you add more features, more ideas. And that's not really something that motivates something on Vision Pro, because there are not so many users, and you can't really make a lot of money with it. So most people who are on it really have to just poker. You just say, like, maybe there will be the users at some point, and then I will have my app ready. Now, I understand that stands from indie developers, too, because say you're an indie developer and you're not working for some big studio and you want to like build out your skills right the reason a lot of indie developers make apps is because they're just like oh this like hones my development skills and it's just a fun project but why would you make a fun project if nobody's going to use it you know i mean there's also there's also that like magical moment where you just like make a fun app in many cases a task app and then you just tweet about it randomly and then all of a sudden people on the internet just go oh i want to try that out and then you mean me Adam.

29:43And then randomly, they either get really popular or they just they have this big stage. But there's nobody to actually use this vision. And you're spending this time learning how to code for Vision Pro. But it's like it's not you don't have faith that they're going to like expand the ecosystem to where people are still going to be using Vision OS in the future. And with that high price tag, I don't know if an indie developer wants to buy one. yes yeah totally and think about how amazing an experience an indie developer and indie team would have to make to justify a four thousand dollar piece of hardware for for some app they could buy one of those nvidia ai computer mini pc things for that price dude you could just like three thousand you could buy like an entire like like room in your house full of sick stuff for $4 ,000.

30:37You know what I mean? We got to go cut to a commercial break, but when we get back, we're going to talk about the experience of actually writing code and developing on this thing and what it's been like to, despite the price, despite the low user base, to forge ahead and try and write programs in Vision Pro. But until then, we'll be right back.

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33:06Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back. We're talking about Vision Pro. We're talking to developers. We're talking code. We're talking$4 ,000 price tags. All of it. One interesting thing Chihat said to me is, and I think I mentioned this to you in passing, Andrew, But I asked both Greg and SheHot, what do you do in Vision Pro when you're not developing for it? Because you both own one for development purposes, but you also use it. Greg gave me a very normal answer. I like to watch movies in it. It's great for watching movies. Big screen, your house, your couch. It's kind of hard to drink a beverage without a straw in Vision Pro.

33:50As someone who drinks a lot of coffee, feeling the coffee mug clink against the glass It's like pretty I can't imagine the hot steam coming up onto the glasses not just absolutely Weird we had the issue where it was like on the bottom too. I haven't it was splitting though, too Remember yeah, well the one that I the one in the office has not split it did a Brandon Brandon's day But I I be clinking I'd be clinking that thing But what do you think she hots favorite thing to envision pro was because it really surprised me and it is the first time I had heard someone give this answer when I asked him the question.

34:26Do backflips. Do backflips. That is exactly correct. It's funny, like, the weight of it actually sort of creates this center point of mass that you can whip your body around, like, really, no. It probably would. You said he doesn't game, right? Does not game. And it's not movies. The first thing I would, like, think of that would actually be beneficial to have something is some sort of, like, 3D rendering or modeling so you can see things in a 3D space. Interesting, but not what he said. What else can you do in this thing? He said he loves it for reading manga. Oh. And I was like, if you're looking at a page, doesn't the foveated rendering ruin that experience?

35:08Only the thing you're looking at is in focus, really, and the rest of it's sort of unrendered gobbledygook? Well, the thing about manga specifically is that most of the things I draw, it's like pictures, and the text is quite big. like you i can also read other stuff but i wouldn't necessarily read a book in it but for manga it's perfect because you mostly like look at the pictures and read the text for it and then you just swipe every 15 seconds or so and then it's you don't have to hold anything it's really awesome enough about manga never never yeah you're so right i don't read any manga i barely know anything about it but i want to talk about developing on vision os because have you been in the app store on vision os not in a very long time it is like going to a mall in 2025 there is like the lights are out the lights are out it's it there's dripping from the ceiling yeah there's like three stores and they're all like half open yeah there's always one coals attached to like the side of it that is still open exactly gotta get that blue light special that's coals right i don't know coals is not anyone here you know i'm talking about no the blue light special One of those old-timey stores would there'd be like this thing where like in the middle of the day Kmart Kmart this blue light would come on and it would signify like an ultra deal and you'd have to like run to one part of the store And like wow I hate everything about that story before fortnight real life was actually kind of like fortnight I don't know if you guys knew this

36:41Anyway, interesting Ellis 2025 before fortnight continue um so both of them said developing for apple vision pro is not particularly difficult if you're already coming from traditional mac app slash ios app and one of the reasons one of the reason that is is because over the years apple has actually made developing for ios and developing for Mac more and more similar with Swift. And I think that's a really cool thing, especially now that both devices are running on Apple Silicon. Obviously, the M series and the A series are very different chips, but they're more similar than, you know, we're not going to use the word Intel around here, but you know what I mean.

37:31Wow. And so they both said, if you're used to using Apple's APIs, you can kind of get started pretty easily. And that is actually where their perspectives began to differ. And one thing, you know, Greg has this really complicated AR app. It's you need to model a piano, but not really display it because you need to be able to see the actual piano you're sitting at. and then that needs to be pinned to a physical location in the world and they need to be generating these objects that fall linearly and they need to land on the right keys because if they're even a little bit off, the app is useless.

38:15You're not getting useful information for playing this piano. And he found the Apple APIs to be pretty useful for that purpose. He said he had to model the piano himself, which took a little bit of time. But after that, things like the spheres that represent the notes, There's an API for that, getting them to stream down. There's an API for that. And Chihat actually had sort of an opposite experience. So the interesting thing about the Vision Pro is there are two different worlds within the Vision Pro. One world is you open your app and you say, my app is the only app that can run now. All other apps have to be gone.

39:01and when you enter that mode you get access to more functionality you get access to things that the camera is tracking like the the walls the surfaces the tables that the the device is finding in your room so you can do more in that way case you can actually do a lot of stuff you could do skeletal tracking you could do many things but that goes to back to basically how i see the Vision Pro as a VR device right now, because that I would call that the VR mode, because you only have this one app that can do something. And even if it does augment, like reality augmentation stuff, it can't do it together with other apps that also may be augmenting or trying to augment reality.

39:43And that's like, technically, that's called the full space for apps. If you run it in the full space, then you can have access to all those. But if you run it in the other one, in the shared space where all the apps can be open, where you can have like a window here, a window there and move them around. You can't access any of these APIs. And that's the thing that I think makes this device really interesting as an AR device, if you can open multiple apps and do things with those. This was so interesting to hear because the ability to multitask this like spatial computing environment was to me the signature selling point of the Vision Pro.

40:21And the fact that it's actually sort of harder to develop in that mode really was not something I expected to hear. The part I'm thinking that it's mostly lacking is the AR part. I personally don't see the Vivian Pro as an AR device yet because the software is missing. Really? Wait, okay. Wow, okay. Damn, you're really giving me a lot here. What's missing from the AR part of it? Well, what is augmenting reality? It means you can augment reality by adding stuff to your reality, right? So when I want to add stuff to my reality, like I have an app where you can basically open posters and pin them to your walls.

41:03And then that's like augmenting reality. You can do that. It works. Like my app is there. But as soon as you switch the device off and turn it back on, the augmenting of the reality is gone. So I would state that the augmentation of reality is just temporary right now. It's not persistent. And this doesn't make it really an AR device because I can't really augment my room. I can't really augment my place. Just imagine if I was basically creating a new dimension of a world where I have different kinds of things in my home and I can switch it on and off whenever I want. And maybe I have multiple different ones.

41:44I have one for work, one for leisure time, and one for when I pass it on to guests. So that's the kind of AR that I'm imagining and seeing as AR, and that's completely missing right now. That's something that the Quest does well, actually, is your home space that you have on the Quest. You can customize, and it can be very personalized to use that every time you turn it on. If you land in the home space by default, then you have all your stuff, and it's in the same space, right? remind me is the quest's home space is it are you referring to like the boundary that you're it's like called like quest home or something but are you referring to like the weird sort of like room that you can choose or it's not a pass-through experience no it's it's a yeah right so it is it's a very different thing it is different versus ar but yes vr versus ar but i do think you raise this really good point that persistence is so important in manufacturing any reality, whether it's an augmented version of our existing reality or it's a complete virtual reality.

42:48I will say like one of the huge things that multiple people have brought up many times is that I would love to use this thing sitting in front of my computer. But the problem is that when I want to like pin windows around me and like do all this set up so that, oh, in my kitchen, It has this really amazing thing where like you can keep things in other rooms. But the fact that when you turn it off and then turn it back on, all of that is gone. It makes it really difficult to use this thing redundantly. And yeah, it just it's like beneficial. Like, oh, I'm going to use it in my living room now. Oh, I'm going to use it in my kitchen now.

43:22I'm going to use it in my bedroom now. And without that persistence, it's so much effort to just set things up every single time. Yes, and that just to me just feels like this giant blind spot that's like almost worse than the price. It's not worse than the price. $4 ,000 is so much money. But seriously, it's like - It's a huge blind spot. Even as someone who only uses this thing at my desk at work, literally not a single other time, having to reset all my windows every time I get to work sucks. It sucks so bad. And when this thing got announced, I remember all these commercials where it's like, you can pin your cooking instructions, dude, toaster.

44:04And then it'll be, and it's like, what's the point of that? It's like, picture the real world version of that, where every time you leave a sticky note somewhere in your house, and then you leave your house, it's gone. No, it's all back in a stack and you have to re-stick it all over again. That's like even worse somehow. So naturally, I had to ask. That's a great analogy. So naturally I had to ask, right? But Vision OS 2. well that's already out i know but it fixed this right like they fixed it like they added the necessary apis they sort of like you know fixed it no no and chihat once again and this is his opinion this is not like based on like hardcore reporting but he sort of enlightened me with this vision os2 in my point of view was like an update that basically fixed or filled gaps more or less that developers already expected to be there from day one.

44:57So Vision OS 2, I wouldn't say it brought any new APIs, new functionalities, new tools that enable developers to do new stuff. They just felt like they just listened to the developer feedback and said, like, hey, this is missing, this is buggy, that kind of stuff was important too. But in my point of view, Vision OS 3 is going to be the first post-feedback release of Vision OS. To me, it was crazy that they called it Vision OS 2 in the first place because they really kind of just improved on things that were obviously missing. Like the big thing about it was they kind of just took the feedback from reviewers and people that were buying it that were like, it's very hard to recommend without these very obvious features.

45:37And they tried to add those in as quick as possible, but they didn't like change, like add APIs, like you said, and like totally change how you use the device. I think that would be a real 2.0. so it's pretty wild that they didn't just call it 1.5 i know especially given the timeline of it like like vision pro comes out in february and then in june the vision os2 beta happens i can't remember if that was the developer beta or the public beta but it's like developer they're not going to be adding crazy new features once the beta is out like it's pretty i mean unless i fundamentally misunderstand how to develop software so jihad like he said it really feels like Vision OS 3 is going to be the first real new thing we get.

46:24Does he have like a wish list of things that he wants to see in Vision OS 3? I'm so happy you asked. Not only does he have a wish list, but it is beautifully written, unbelievably clear, and on his blog, fline.dev, F-L-I-N-E.dev, and an article called Why I Stopped Building for Vision OS and what could bring me back. And his wish list, number one, magnetically pinning windows and objects to surfaces. This sort of exists, right? Like it does recognize surfaces. You can sort of put stuff up against them, kind of. It's a little bit messier than that, but still isn't persistent. Doesn't really accomplish like a full mixed reality experience.

47:11Number two, advanced room scanning with editable 3D models. And he's talking about a hybrid API that combines the power of RoomPlan and the 3D scanner. Apple clearly has a lot of experience with LiDAR at this point. Lots of Apple devices have LiDAR. Number three, skeletal recognition for fun AR interactions. I'll be real. I don't understand rigging in 3D stuff. Not a developer. I don't know if you knew this. So I'm not even going to try to explain how skeletal stuff works, but it has something to do with rigging. Or maybe not. Oops. And then more interactive, immersive video experiences. Like we should be able to have a 3D video that you can more walk around, maybe, I don't know.

48:04Like Apple Maps, like he says. Exactly, like an Apple Maps. And we actually had a really funny conversation about Apple Maps because I am an avid Microsoft Flight Simulator player. And are you guys familiar with the Bing Maps integration? No. Really? No. Do you know about this? I didn't even know that was a problem. I didn't know there was Bing Maps. Okay, so Bing Maps exists. Google or Microsoft owns, you know, all of this map data. And they also own Azure, right? The cloud computing platform. Yeah. And they have this big partnership with a little company. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, OpenAI.

48:43I don't actually know if OpenAI's models are part of this, but I would assume it's part of this just sort of extended family of nonsense. But when you're playing Microsoft Flight Simulator, they leverage open source map data and Bing Maps data with an AI running on Azure cloud to recreate the entire world in 3D. Oh. To the point, because they're using like real, up-to-date satellite maps from Big Maps, if you fly over your house, not only will you be like, hey, that's my house. I recognize it. You'll be like, that's my car parked outside. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's awesome. It's awesome. So when you're flying around the neighborhood you grew up in, you can use real landmarks to navigate.

49:30Or when I'm flying around Los Angeles, where I grew up, it's amazing. I can be like, there's my... There's actually something really beautiful about being in the sky and seeing your entire childhood neighborhood at once and being like, that's the park where I played baseball. That's my elementary school. And like a decade of memories being experienced at once. It's amazing. Anyway, this is all to say, this is possible. We have the technology. It's in a stupid video game. Yeah. So Jihad was really frustrated. He felt like he didn't have the APIs necessary to truly make the AR experiences of his dreams.

50:08Meanwhile, Greg's experience was actually like way more rewarding. He found the new workflows of, you know, coding on a Mac, putting on the headset, writing a few more lines of code in the headset, testing it out, taking it off. Challenging but rewarding and something to think about. And he also said something that I thought was really cool, which is that when you write iOS apps, you're constantly thinking about how do I put everything in this box, this rectangle, in a way that makes the most sense, right? And then when you're working with Vision Pro apps, all of a sudden you have, in theory, limitless amounts of space.

50:47And what do you do with that? How do you not overload the user, but also how do you not underwhelm the user? And I was just like, wow, that is such a fun brain shift to get to do. But once again, like Apple are really helping and how to how to design stuff in 3D. And and I think I think it's so cool. Like when you when you build an app on an iOS, you have to think in a small rectangle. You have to hear you have all the space around you to to bring information. And it's so cool. and that's why i wanted to like for my app in um on the piano the notes are falling from the from the sky and it's cool to see greg also said that he found vision os2 to have some really meaningful improvements specifically for the piano app anchor points are much more stable you know when you put an anchor in the real world you want it to to be very stable for example for the the piano application.

51:53I don't want it to shift like even some millimeters, it will show the wrong note, for example, on the piano. So I really want it to be very accurate. And I think with Vision OS 2, they improve it a little bit. It's very, very good accuracy. And when you put an encore on the real world, it will stick. When you like say, hey, in the real world, this point is here, there's a lot less jitter, which as I'm sure you can imagine for something like the Piano app is a lot better. Kind of important. It's also funny because that sounds like a 1.x update not a 2.0 update because it's less, it's fixed, right?

52:35It's a thing that exists that was improved by. Exactly, Andrew, exactly. So one thing that I was really curious about as someone who doesn't develop is how different is coding for iOS versus Macintosh? God, it feels weird to say Macintosh but I'm going to say it. How different is iOS and Macintosh? And then how different are those two things from Vision Pro from a developer's perspective? And one thing that both of these devs brought up is that over the years, Apple has really pushed these sort of semantic solutions, right, where back in the day, if you were coding for Mac and you wanted to put a search bar in a specific place, you would enter in coordinates.

53:13Sometimes they're UV coordinates, sometimes they're other kind of coordinates. You would pin it to that location, ba-da-ba-da-ba-da. you'd start to build your layout. Over the years, Apple has really made it such as that they know where the best place for a search bar is in an iOS app. It's not going to be buried in a hamburger menu. It's not going to be at the lower left-hand side of the screen. You know where the magnifying glass is supposed to go. Yeah, at the bottom of the Safari window. And so when you're writing Swift code, oftentimes what you're saying is not put the search bar at the top of the screen.

53:47You're saying, put the search bar in the search bar place. One thing that definitely is different on Vision OS than on Mac OS or iOS is that it didn't have that old system where you could describe like, I want to have a button at this coordinate and it looks exactly like that. It just doesn't have that. Same as the watchOS, by the way. On watchOS, you can't also do that. On iOS, because we had this old system before 2019, there was this old system. And on the Mac, it's still there. You can still use it and you can always fall back to it. Like Apple didn't drop support for that old system. It's still there.

54:22You can use the new one, which had these baked in functionalities, or you can choose to use the old one. But on Visualize, we don't have it. They basically, when they introduce new platforms nowadays, they say, OK, we only introduce a new system. You have to use it. And the new system is more restricted and you can't like UI wise. There are things you can't really control yourself in detail. So it's a bit different, but still you can make a lot of custom stuff still when it comes to like window UIs and stuff like that. And I would see the limitations more on the parts that are not just buttons and UI elements like you have on iPad, etc.

55:00and other platforms, but the stuff that the Vision Pro should actually excel at, being AR and VR. Which on the one hand, at first I was like, that sounds not fun. That sounds like Apple is telling you how to do things. And both Greg and Chihot responded. They were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not like that, bro. Like, obviously, sometimes it's fun to have freedom as far as your user interface goes. But for the most part, when you're making an app, the user interface is not creative expression. Like, you need it to be intuitive so that people can actually use your dang thing. And it can bog you down, like, having to write all of this code.

55:39But something really interesting that they mentioned is that on both macOS and iOS, you can always fall back on the old system. You can always override the prescribed semantics. You can always go back to the coordinates. That is not true on Vision Pro. And it's because there's no legacy system that Vision Pro is building upon. I mean, technically, it's a fork of iPadOS, but at the same time, you don't get any of those old tools. And I thought that was like a really interesting thing as a developer because VisionOS is different from macOS and iPadOS or iOS. iOS has been around since 2007. We know the best place.

56:26I'm going to use the search for it. We know where it is. We've figured it out. We've gone through the fire. but we don't know these things yet for vision pro like we have an idea of what's probably going to work well and it seems like it's going all right we all agree that this thing is very intuitive but also i don't know i sort of think we should have the freedom to get a little messy we're new in this thing i see i mean i think no one will ever be upset with more freedom but one thing i mean we all agree that the thing apple nailed with vision pro was the intuitiveness so that that means they probably found out quite a few things correctly.

57:04And like, do you trust them? Do you not trust them? It sounds like they have, I mean, I know it's over a decade of research of iOS stuff, knowing where certain things are supposed to go. And this is fairly new, but they seem to have hit it pretty well off the bat. So I think they have it with the interaction stuff. But I think that in terms of the way that apps should work and how they should be pinned and how you should interact with the actual UI elements, I think that's maybe something that might be interesting for developers to kind of mess around with. It's always interesting for, I totally agree with that.

57:39But like, I don't know, using it feels really intuitive. It feels like they, that's the thing they nailed. Well, there's also the delineation between like interfacing with a floating window versus interfacing with like an object or something like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like a window, I think Apple knows what they're doing. but something else entirely might be might be different do you think once more developers or once there's more people on board with this they'll kind of revert back to a grid system nah you don't think they'll give the freedom once people are like oh we're used to this like we get it now it's been five ten years of of spatial os whatever it's called and then be like okay here's a little bit more freedom now that we kind of know where everything is or like this is them just like this is where it goes, that's fine.

58:25I mean, it's possible that Apple, it feels like Apple wants to have more and more and more control moving forward in general. And it seems like maybe because the iPhone and the Mac have been out for so long, they can't necessarily just flip a switch and say, we're taking away all your control. But for a completely new paradigm, they feel more emboldened to do that. And also I got the impression that Apple views the, the coordinate system is just like one example, right? But a lot of these sort of you do everything from scratch as sort of a legacy way of building these things. And Apple does not seem like the kind of company that is going to fall back on a legacy.

59:04And I'd also like to raise, there's another really common development platform. He's not looking at me. There's another really common development platform that works like this. Not exactly like put this in the best place, but this is sort of how HTML works. It works a bit like HTML on the web, where you more describe what you want to have. And then the browser decides how it renders it. And this time, the system now decides how it's rendered. So I think being a developer for the Apple Vision Pro, you're in this very weird place where you have all of these tools. And yet, in order to realize this device as sort of what Apple advertised, you're actually missing a bunch of key tools.

59:42And there's no guarantee anyone's actually going to give you any money for this stuff. You know, G-Hop brought up this really good point that when the Vention Pro first came out, he was like, there's going to be this gold rush moment. It's going to be like the iPhone where like people are paying a dollar for the beer app, you know. And that it was sort of like that for a week. But he said after a week, it was just like, yeah, just sort of stopped. Anyway, we're going to take another break. When we get back from the break, we are going to try our best to look to the future and see what's in store for this magical piece of garbage.

1:00:14And until then. Jesus. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? David, David, David, you and I, we're in the same boat, right? Like, we live in New York. We're around lots of people. They know we're tech folk. And we get asked, should I buy a Vision Pro? And I always say no. Well. I say try. I say go to an Apple store and experience it because it's very fun. And then you don't need to buy it. Exactly. Yeah. It's a magical piece of garbage. It's going a little bit far. I don't think so. I don't think so. It's magical. You put it on and you go, Jihad said something. Jihad was like, was like, after I gave it to some of my older family members and they took it off, they got kind of freaked out because they were like, how do I know I'm not wearing the headset right now?

1:01:02Oh no, we can't go down this rabbit hole. No, but all I'm saying is that is magic. And personally, personally, I really hate that thing that people say where they're like, any sufficiently advanced piece of technology is indistinguishable from magic and hit the wrong button for me yeah i hate that one um and we can get into that at another time but apple vision pro is magic undeniably and it also doesn't do anything ergo it is a magical piece of garbage i'm not gonna take any i love vision pro i i'm like the biggest vision pro guy in the office and I firmly believe. Magic trash. And without giving many of my hosts a chance to respond, I'm going to take it to commercial.

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1:03:43Plus, with lawn care from Scott's and, of course, Pit Boss grills and accessories, you can get a home field advantage all season long. So get to Lowe's, get it done, and earn your Sunday. Lowe's official partner of the NFL. Welcome back to the freezer, AKA the Waveform Studio. We're cold and I'm Ellis and we're gonna be talking about the future of Vision Pro and where we think it's heading. And I poked and prodded these developers as hard as I could to try to be like, speculate, speculate, speculate. And they just wouldn't. They were like, I don't know. So that's our job as your resident morons.

1:04:22I would like to go first with my speculation sure okay I am doubtful cheaper vision pro will come out I want it to I see it as pretty much the only way this platform is going to survive you mean like ever or like soon like in the next year or two I don't want to say ever because it's not look we had this big year this year where both meta and snap unveiled these tiny glasses they're not even 1 % as powerful as Vision Pro. They don't have as high a resolution. They don't work as well in almost every way. That being said, the degree to which the form factor was scaled down is nuts. It's very compelling.

1:05:06It's super compelling. And if I were Apple, I would at least be thinking, hmm, maybe this is where this is going and not a big giant headset. and you already have this really powerful base that is Vision OS. I could see not spending money developing a cheaper, slimmer headset, going back to hardcore research mode, cultivating Vision OS into something that will eventually run on glasses and just waiting for other people to do the necessary research to make these things. I don't think that's what's gonna happen. You don't think that's what's gonna happen? No. What do you, David Amell, think is gonna happen?

1:05:46I think that they are going to try to make it slimmer. Okay. They're absolutely going to try to make it cheaper. Okay. And there might even be a situation where they subsidize the price a little bit. Of course. It cost Google$50 more than it cost them to make the Nexus 7 to sell it because they just needed to adopt Google Play users. And that worked very well for them. so what Apple needs to do is they need to make it less annoying to wear they need to make it cheaper and they need to make a killer app that actually makes people want to use it every day or just enhance the work features where you do have permanent spatial pinning and that kind of stuff and I think that considering chipsets are getting faster and lower power and all this kind of stuff they could even like I don't know switch to an A series chip at some point it probably doesn't need to run an M series chip I don't know I mean, a lot of the stuff is getting easier to run.

1:06:43The chipsets are getting faster. The node size is shrinking. Like, I think that they could potentially put it on a smaller chip later down the line. But, yeah, I think the build quality is allowed to take a hit if it means it can go smaller. And if they could sell it for$1 ,500 or less, I think that that could be a winner. But they need to make it cheaper. if you go on vision pro r slash vision pro i think that's what it's called um you almost always see people bragging they were like i just finished my vision pro setup and it's always mac mini magic keyboard apple vision pro no monitor like that is the thing people are most stoked about is like and i don't really uh i like that you said 1500 because the alternative to a vision pro in that setup is a studio display right which is also overpriced yep definitely but absolutely i think the idea of you're building an at-home desktop setup vision pro versus studio display yeah actually kind of makes sense both have speakers both have a webcam it just sort of depends you know what your vibe is um i was gonna take the very common andrew route and go somewhere in between both.

1:08:05Wow. Wow. You're a coward. I kind of like agree with both of you. I think we all agree that the Metaglasses and the Vision Pro are the two far ends of the spectrum and they're both battling to the middle of that and they just like started at different routes. So like the form factor is better on Metaglasses if you can create that but the computing power is nothing. Where the form factors they just focused way too much on over quality controlling it and it's just like not comfortable to wear yeah but the computer pattern is insane yeah i like what david said of like this think of how the quest had like the quest 3 and now the quest 3s like i don't i don't know what they would call it because it wouldn't be vision pro it'd be like vision se would be that like thousand dollar version that's maybe a little more plastic which is funny to think like plastic is lower quality but will be so much more comfortable on your head yeah and lighter so something like that I think we totally see it because they need to keep developing inside of Vision and we're already seeing if one of our two developers we talk to is like I'm not doing this anymore not a great route for developers so they need something to keep them around and they need something that you know you need the research of how people are using it so if you make it$4 ,000 yeah if you make it way too expensive you need to make it accessible so I also agree with subsidizing some and then they're going to work down towards the better form factor.

1:09:29But I think we are, you know, as impressive as Snap and Meta are with their glasses. We are just so far away from that being the form factor of like actually producing what you want to use in everyday life and being able to afford it. And it seems like what you need to make a budget version of this, whenever I talk to engineers, not just Apple, but Meta, Snap, all over the place who are working on these problems, I get wildly different answers. Like I was talking, I'm not going to, you know, name any names, but I was talking to engineers at one company who were like, yeah, you know, getting a stable image to both of your eyes is really tough because you have almost no tolerance for any flex.

1:10:16Like as soon as one of the displays moves ever so slightly, all of a sudden the, your brain is struggling to like combine them into a stereoscopic image. I then asked that to another company and they were like, sounds like a skill issue. And I was just like, I don't know what to believe, man. There's no like standard in this. And I think all the companies are working. And we've had them admit that too. They're like, this is what we want with this. We think it's gonna be the standard, but we're also ready to like switch gears and move to the thing that universally becomes the standard. So, no, I mean, I think some people believe that like a smaller field of view and higher resolution is more important than Meta's wider field of view and lower resolution.

1:11:00You know what I mean? Yeah. And there's just two there's just a lot of different competing camps on how this is going to go. And this goes this is almost a protocol question because there's just a lot of competing standards until eventually people figure it out. I know you know it's really funny that you brought up that dichotomy because it really does actually make the vision pro make a little bit more sense because The Apple solution to do we go with higher resolution or do we go with more field of view? Yes Yes, both and make it insane. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's something else that I was thinking about I think that they know that they need to make this like cheaper and lighter and made up more plastic but apple has entered a stage in their company's lifespan where everything they make is jewelry they have they don't really sell a product that isn't supposed to be like jewelry you know what i mean what do you mean by jewelry expand on that like the fit and finish and the build quality and everything is just like insane material tolerances the materials titanium like freaking everything they make is just like they so i think that they're scared of making something that feels like it could be a little bit cheaper whereas meta is just like i don't know dude throw it at the wall like figure it out it doesn't really matter if it's plastic it doesn't we're just trying to like advance the technology and we're trying to put this people's hands we're trying to put this excuse me we're trying to put this on people's heads yeah who's doing that though meta meta the funny thing is though is it really solidifies my original thought and i think a lot of us agreed with this of like the apple vision pro feels like it was a dev kit that they sold to consumers um and the consumer aspect of it didn't work out quite as well yeah yeah it's a technology advancing like prototype that they fixed the fit and finish on to sell it to people who are willing to spend a lot of money and arguably made it worse to do that yeah i know yeah i know and it's like as somebody really uses it a lot it's it's one of the few tech products I've used in the past year that really just like lights a fire in me.

1:13:05I would kill for a fire right now. I have a question for you though, Ellis. Yeah. You're using the studios unit. No, absolutely. I would never buy this thing. This is the problem. There was one, it's a magic piece of trash and I love it. And it's the best thing you can buy. And it's not, it's not worth it. and like every no once or twice I've like gone on eBay you can get a used one like$2 ,600 or something cheaper like$2 ,200 still a lot of money even that is like too much for me because it's like I could buy oh they're lower I'm seeing them for $1 ,850 let's go to sold listings how do I do that cheapest one$1 ,389 was it broken no sealed apple vision pro wow that's not a great look but it might be it's a 21 medium i don't know if like that's like oh you just little little small head guy one third of the value in one year uh i'm seeing 14 i'm seeing 26 i'm seeing 31 interesting okay seems like they're selling all over the place clearly varies i'm not gonna lie david if someone came up to me on the street and was like...

1:14:18For$13? For$13 I might... Yeah, I could see you considering that for$13. I think I might do it actually for$13. But I think... Anyway. Now what if it was made of plastic entirely? And still worth... And still cost$1 ,300? Yeah. But it still had the same experience and was lighter. That sounds better to me. That's what I'm saying. But it's nice. Jesus Christ. I just learned something about myself. You like jewelry? Because I was like... Yeah. Because I was like, I don't know about that. Like, I don't want a plastic thing. Yep. And this is probably what apple was thinking too but i think they're wrong damn so is are people like me just impossible to satisfy yes yep yeah well before we go i wanted to ask you guys a question what is the killer app that you think would ignite division pros sales that that would make you go four thousand dollars nothing yeah i love flat screens and i love my laptop i don't know i don't need to it's it's great it's fun it's awesome but the way i see it like you're just doing the same thing in a different paradigm and i don't like i'm not a sculptor right i could see from like a 3d like modeler's point of view yeah how this could be really incredible if you really like i don't know how to tactile feedback or something and it actually felt you were sculpting something for me i write words i consume articles i don't need to do that in 3d space versus on a flat display yeah so yeah i think i just really don't see myself in a position of using it it would have to be productivity wise because entertainment wise i think there's still something weird about you know i live in a house with my wife and a kid now being inside of a vision pro feels really weird if they're in the same room as i am so like maybe if i was single in an apartment and really liked watching a lot of sports and stuff like that maybe there's some cool exterior sports apps that could fit in there but uh that chihot brought up a really good point that if they nailed the soccer football experience oh my god like this thing would fly off the shelves i also want to note that like i think a lot of the reason a lot of people love like the quest is because they can have like a youtube video playing on the side while they're doing their dishes um all comes back to the dishes no there's so many times i've like been on a facetime call with someone in vision pro and then i'll just send them a screenshot and it'll be like the facetime call like you know a normal size and then i'll have like a 70 foot family guy funniest moments compilation like right next someone will be like great call um so i gotta focus our energy i need a we need a we need to be paying more attention to what we're doing at any given no no no no no no no no we need family guy funniest moments compilations i think my killer app killer experience i mean on top of my absolutely hilarious productivity app idea that i'm still waiting for someone to implement where your tasks chase you around the house and the more important tasks move faster and are scarier.

1:17:32Yeah, literally a killer app. Literally. Nice. Now, I would like to see I, so I am in this sort of unique space where I am one of the few audio professionals who works more in headphones than on speakers. That's like a pretty not normal thing for audio folk. and if I could get really killer audio integration, like if I could, if there was a headphone jack, and I could like fully like use it as like a sound card and have like truly no latency direct, like, I mean, I guess I can already do that out of my interface, but then I still have to have like this headphone core. I don't know, like to me, that's where it comes in super clutch is like when I'm in a mix and I'm wearing my headphones and I just want to like lock in.

1:18:19It's a good point. So like you're using the vision pro as your main computer to do the Right now I'm using it in remote remote desktop, right? Exactly same same difference And like I know I've talked to a bunch of mix engineers who all say man I want to mix in this thing Audio nerd moment one of the ways we Tell what we're hearing is our brain is constantly comparing the information we have between our two ears part of the way sound makes it to our ears is it comes across our nose and our cheekbones and is actually like directed across our face to our ears when you have a big thing right here it makes it it makes stuff sound different um and and sometimes it can be harder to have a clear perceive a clear stereo image with ski goggles on your face you guys are missing the one thing that would make this instantly fly off the shelves even at four thousand dollars i said soccer better gta 6 if it had an exclusive game dude that would be too much people you just solve do you remember how apple's problem no but do you guys remember how gnarly it was when gta 5 came out on next gen quote-unquote next gen consoles xbox one and they added the first person mode which wasn't in the 360 release and everyone was like wait i don't like this no there was this moment where everyone is like like gta it's like fun to be irreverent in gta but all of a sudden in first person yeah it's like this is less fun now i think um i think i think in in vr it would be way too real when the when the vive was the most popular headset in like 2015 there was a game that came out that was basically like call of duty but first person and people loved it oh yeah yeah Okay, I'm gonna close with this because I had a really interesting experience last weekend that I didn't think about Vision Pro But now I'm thinking about it as it pertains to Vision Pro Okay, if you live in one of the cities where this movie is screening, I highly suggest you go see it It's a movie called Grand Theft Hamlet You guys heard of this?

1:20:30No, you guys went to it Grand Theft Hamlet is a staging of Hamlet entirely within Grand Theft Auto And when Mariah put it in Slack, I was like, this sounds stupid. I'll go see it It was so beautiful And I cannot stop thinking about this movie after seeing it and that would be a pretty cool thing for vision pro if i could if i could actually if this existed and the community existed this might be the thing because like i'm kind of interested in in exploring theater especially after seeing this movie and i don't want to go to a place i don't have enough time so if i could like wear this thing and use my creepy apple persona as a character on a stage and read a soliloquy.

1:21:13So like live events? I guess I'm thinking specifically like theater, like something that you have multiple people and you're interacting and you're playing. And you like kick a ball and it goes into a net. No, well, maybe. Maybe for, yeah. Okay. All right. My co-hosts are freezing. I'm somehow doing fine. Normally I'm the cold one. This is weird. Anyway, I'm gonna wrap it up here. I want to give a big, big thank you to Jihat and Greg for coming on the show. You can find Jihat on Blue Sky, Twitter, Mastodon. We'll put his links in the show notes. And if you're watching the video, it'll be somewhere on the screen.

1:21:52Gregor, is there anything that you would like to share about yourself, about developing for Vision Pro, something that you feel like people might not know without you telling them? Anything before we wrap up the call? Yeah, just one thing. I know there are a lot of developers who develop iOS apps and I really encourage them to step into 3D world it's not that hard and if they are able to build stuff in 2D it's okay in 3D and Greg is also on Twitter also don't forget if you are a dev, if you're interested in indie development, I highly recommend checking out Jihad's blog that is F-L-I-N-E dot dev.

1:22:36Again, thank you guys so much for speaking with us. You were so helpful, so informative, and probably a little annoyed talking to someone who knows as little about this stuff as I do. Anyway, I'm Ellis. That's Andrew. That's David. Adam's over there. We're freezing. We're going to wrap. What does Marquez normally do? He goes, peace. Catch you guys in the next one. Yeah. Catch you guys in the next one. That sounds so forced. Ellis out. Keep this. Ellis out. Waveform was produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Rovin. We're partnered with Vox Media Podcast Network, and our triadherum music was created by Vane Cell.

1:23:11Bingo. Shh.

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