Are AI Browsers the Future with Josh Miller

24:44So yes, if it's not your default browser, then we can't help you. But if you switch to it in earnest, just your normal browsing is going to personalize it. But I think the deeper question here is, okay, you're competing with Chrome, just 5 billion monthly active users. And right, isn't that wild? Because that is the thing that people have been sleeping on is if you're interested in consumer products, don't talk about Snapchat, talk about Chrome, right? So, but really the heart of your question is like, how the heck are you going to compete? And I'll say, this has been the question since day one.

25:14prior to Dia. You know, if I was doing an interview about Arc, it was like, man, why can't they just add split screen? If they just add a vertical sidebar, aren't they screwed? And so that doesn't mean it's not a, you know, a real threat. But what we've seen is they have a very powerful incentive, which is search and search ads. And so, you know, that Gemini button, we know from someone we interviewed that that thing was supposed to be the default in a much more bold way, but it tanks search ad revenue. Like one of the things in Dia that people love the most is we train this on-device ML model that lives in your URL bar to make it really AI native, that when you type a query, it parses that query to understand what is it that you're asking for.

25:54And it will send you to Google a lot. But if we think it's better to send it to AI chat or any number of AI agents or apps in the future, we just route you there. It's this really powerful thing where you don't have to learn modifier keys, talk about the novelty text. You don't have to learn any new features. We just infer your intent and send you to the right place. Could Google do that? Yeah. Could they do it better than us? Almost definitely. You know what? That will tank dramatically overnight. Like the whole premise of an AI browser is search engines are not as important as they used to be.

26:23You should probably pretty rarely go to them now. So will Google and Chrome get to the motivation where they want to do that? I'm sure at some point on the top three things that keep me up at night in my next 12 months running this company, that is not one of them. I think you've seen the announcement, the Gemini, I got, honestly, I saw the video. I was right okay so it's a button that you have to go pay for gemini go pay for it by the way so there goes your default there who's going to pay that and then after you pay for it you got to go into chrome you got to go into settings and you got to turn on this button you know it's it's such it just felt like such a wall street gesture so how how then if we can agree that we have some time horizon by which the search ad model and all their incentives are going to mean they're slow to truly do it AI native.

27:11We have a window. What do we have to, we have only one shot. It's always been our shot. Build something absolutely awesome that people love. Can we do it? I don't know. But like, I think we are here because we did it once and we built a following for software that made people feel something in a category that they never cared about before. Going to be really hard to do it again, but I have faith that if we are, if we go back to our roots and we're as excited and optimistic and creative and open as we've always been, that's the only shot we got and it got us here. So Google also knows that people are going to be moving towards, you know, agents and asking their web browser full questions instead of searching in SEO, right?

27:54Like we've all been programmed over the years to search in SEO because we know how search engines work. People are slowly moving towards just using full questions in Google search. Talking like a human, not a robot. Exactly. And that's the reason they introduced AI mode. And now they have the the Chrome eight, like the Gemini agent in the corner. I hear you when you say like, oh, well, they don't want to destroy their ads business because that's their whole business. But I think they also understand like everyone else is moving that direction. so is your bet that you have your you don't have any reins on the fact that google's ad business is going to get destroyed if they move towards this business where they're just serving you answers and they're more constrained because they want to move towards that because they know everyone else is going to do it but they need to figure out how to monetize it yeah let me let me tell you a story about that and then i'm going to tell you what i'm really worried about so it doesn't just sound like my founder it's like oh we got this figured out um so someone that previously worked at the browser company is a guy named Darren Fisher that ran Chrome for, I think, 16 years or something like that.

28:55And he told me the story about there is this one feature where on the new tab page, underneath the URL bar, they show your most visited websites and they switched it to the favicons of the websites because it's much easier to quickly notice the Twitter icon, for example. Overnight tank global search revenue by 5%. Massive freak out now actually sundar to his credit sundar was the original pm on chrome yeah that was his first that was the project to put him on the map yeah great guy sundar seems like a wonderful human um he said no it doesn't matter we're going to ship it but there's a huge impact if a if that tiny change does five i don't know if it's exactly five percent whatever it was what happens when you change the url bar which an apple vp told me is the most popular text box on all of mac os is Chrome's URL bar.

29:43Is that wild? That's crazy. Isn't that wild? If you change that to say, hey, how about 40 % of the time we don't send you to Google? I just don't. I don't see it. I don't see it anytime soon. Now, the thing that really worries me, which I know I may not be in an audience that will believe this and we can talk about it. I think the way we use the web and the internet is going to change faster than we expect. And I think if you get out of the building and talk to a cousin or a niece in high school or college, I worry much more about a world where AI chat interfaces like ChatGPT or pick your favorite one actually just replace the browser wholesale at some point and sooner than we think.

30:22So what keeps me up at night is Chrome going to add this button and then the button's going to be a sidebar and then they're going to get it. It's going to be like, wait a minute, are we too close to it? Like what comes really after? Because if you look at the similar waves, it wasn't the magazine on the internet, on the web, right? And so that's the thing that I think about is, are we being bold enough? Which has a tension with our novelty tax. So our bet with Dia is make it look familiar. So in that 30-second budget that we have, you get it on Tuesday at 11 a.m., and you can just go. We import everything instantly.

30:55It generally looks the same. You feel the design, craft, and love, and then kind of reveal to you over time how powerful it is in these new ways without you having to learn new things. The risk, I think, is actually that we even are being too incremental and we're not being bold enough. Now, again, I have a bunch of reasons why I think we're in a good spot. But I think if I'm back here in a year and you invite me back and like it didn't work out, I promise you it's not going to be because Chrome did something with Gemini. It's going to be because even though I'm coming on this podcast to say like, I know you think, you know, AI overviews aren't good, but like people are interfacing.

31:29They're talking to their computers. They're thinking with their computers. They're doing things they've never done before. It's going to be because we even underestimated how much that's going to change the way our user agents and we interface. And I think that's the thing that people, including me, missed is I was comparing these tools to Google. And, you know, it's like I've been trained for decades to do this like robotics syntax. Yeah. And so what I was doing is like I was doing that in ChatGPT. But that's not what people are doing, net new use cases. They're talking to their computers and getting help with things they never did before.

31:59and I think we don't like I think there's this weird stigma around it where you talk to someone you get them in a quiet moment and they'll like I can't tell you the number of conversations I've had that was like man this is kind of weird I like I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this but like I had like a 90 minute conversation with chat last night about this emotional topic in my life and I I teared up at the end and people are embarrassed there's like this social stigma about because of that political debate that I spoke about. So I just want to say the quiet thing out loud. We can think it's weird.

32:31It doesn't mean people are having sex with robots. And it doesn't mean that like, you know, we're all going to be out of jobs. But why can't we be excited and just name that like for the first time in like a decade or two, the way people are like using and doing things with computers is changing. It is fun to think about that there's entire generations of people like we've we've already done this with different like paradigm shifts. But like, It's crazy to us, a bunch of 20, 30-plus-year-olds, that there are people who don't know what a world without smartphones is like because they just became the thing that people use.

33:00And I think Google search has been one of those things for so long where everyone in this room knows how to do a Google search. And there is going to be a generation that grows up that never has to learn SEO speak and just punches in whatever they want to know into a chatbot that can tell them ideally the correct answer but some sort of answer. so that that paradigm shift i think is a fair bet to make and it's just a matter of like following user behavior and building something that ideally is useful to that new behavior yeah and that's where that's where i think what we're excited about is not so much trying to better solve the one was the what year did the you know american revolution start i think google's great for that it's what are these net new things that people are doing yeah that they couldn't have done before is where that's the heat we're following or trying to I have a stat right here because I was wondering this and I learned this before but approximately 15 % of all daily google searches are brand new which is interesting that was already interesting to me but I bet the number of things people are typing into these chatbots that have never been typed before is sky high yeah it's extremely high just because we see that behavior so new yeah

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38:34is ai a feature or a product i feel very confident that in five years on mac os or windows the application that has default browser permission will look much more similar to an ai chat interface than a browser and the web pages that you access within them and the tabs you access within them are going to feel much more like tool calls or tools that that AI chat interface can wield for you and open for you, which doesn't mean you're not opening a big Figma link. It doesn't mean you're not typing in Google Docs. But I absolutely think without question, the hierarchy is going to flip. I'm not telling you it's going to be Dia for sure, but I feel incredibly, I mean, think about all the heat that we're getting right now.

39:23It's not fun. Yeah. It's much more enjoyable to be like the art guy and everyone's like, oh, I love animations. I wouldn't do this. I would not do this if I didn't believe in my bones that this is one of those moments where the paradigm is going to shift, which doesn't mean we're going to succeed, but without question. And I'm like, I kind of wanted to come on here and give a little more of the raw to timestamp it for myself. Honestly, like in my, you know, yeah, I don't know. I could be wrong. I could, I could be, I could be totally naive. But why I feel that conviction is this didn't come from Twitter.

39:56I got off Twitter. This is, I literally went to college campuses and just spent time with people unrelated. And it's just. Can I ask one more question? I'm here as long as this is like cathartic for me. Okay. How are you going to make money? We are going to charge for Dia. That is one of the other really interesting cultural shifts is like when we started the browser company, the idea that people would pay for software in a kind of broader sense was not a popular idea. And one of the things with these AI tools, I'm an angel investor in this company called Cursor that makes it's sort of like DIA for coding.

40:28It takes a traditional IDE VS code and it doesn't just add a sidebar. It kind of imbues these AI models within every part of the IDE experience. it is the fastest growing software company of all time in terms of revenue ramp, in terms of the amount it charges every month. Now it's very different. Those are software engineers and it's much more valuable than Diaz today. But I think there is now finally a model where you can say, hey, if you really offer something that unique and valuable, especially because what is our argument? Our argument is going to be, this thing knows you better than any other AI chat tool.

40:59It knows you better. It really gets you and it's right there. So yeah. Now when you say charge for Diaz, because I know as of right now, we're testing a version of it that's super early. Is it going to be, you're going to charge for the whole browser? Are you going to charge for a feature inside of Dia or what's the point? No, we're going to charge for a kind of a premium bundle at some point. So one of the things that's really interesting is we spoke briefly about how we built this ML model in our URL bar that routes you to different places. There are more and more of, I hate the word agents, but there are more and more of these like AI apps or agents coming online that are very specialized and actually often string together a bunch of different models and kind of custom prompting and tool integrations, you can imagine a world where just the base dia is free.

41:40But then, you know, you can buy the like software engineering bundle or the sales and marketing bundle, or I'm making this up. But that's another thing is, man, this industry is so bad with like naming and human words. But this concept of agents, though it is annoying to say that word, is really real and powerful in the things you can do when you string these models and tools together. And so I think is you see more and more of those kind of verticalized applications that are native to ai being able to unlock those and route you to different places um and do you believe like a mobile model works with that too because like we're not you know there's all these ideas of this company io taking away your phone see if that happens but uh do you see dia also being on a mobile interface you have to be right i think that was one of the reasons that you even took a while to get on art because we weren't on Android.

42:30So I think you have to be on mobile. I think the interface on mobile is much more of a remote control. So if you think about the desktop browsers, primarily go back to the TikTok analogy, every tab you open, it's getting personalized to you. But actually that personalization is owned and controlled by you. And that's why we're, you know, doing things in the browser. Well, now that is like kind of personalizing the algorithm for lack of a better framing. When you're on your phone, you're just going to want to talk to it And you're going to want to get its help, but it doesn't it's kind of based in that awareness and knowledge that's compounded from desktop.

43:01But I think similar to Arc, what a browser is on mobile is very different than desktop. So I do not imagine a world, for example, where anyone is mobile only with Dia. That would miss the raw power. You know, it really needs. And I think if you go back to our first YouTube video and the original idea for the browser company, it was this idea of an Internet computer, which was because the browser is popular because it's now an operating system because your apps and files are there. What that means is your computing life is in the cloud. It's all stored on a server somewhere. And if that's true, then your computer, in air quotes, should be able to go with you to any device because it's all just in the cloud.

43:36Context follows you. Exactly. That still holds in this world, which means that, all right, if you're just on your mobile phone and you don't want to use D on desktop, you're missing the power of that. But I think whether it's OpenAI or Google, that is where, you know, I think the thesis was right. whether or not we win or not, which is your computer is gonna increasingly feel like this deeply personalized AI model that goes with you across all devices and different devices play different roles with mobile being more of like easy input, probably voice centric, with desktop playing the personalization engine that really knows what's going on in your life, especially your livelihood.

44:12I don't know what this IO thing is gonna be or your TV or your car, but like you better believe it's gonna be there too. Good luck to them. Yeah. I guess while we have you, The question, personalization is often like on the opposite end of the spectrum is privacy, where if I'm using Google's thing, Google has to know everything about me to deliver that level of personalization. And it's interesting hearing you guys have made your own models and are going to build things that like keep all this context and knowledge about you. How much are you thinking about privacy? And if people care a lot about privacy, should they like something like this?

44:40Yeah. Our view is giving people control and give it be just being very transparent. And I think one thing that is true, though, is to get the most power from these models, it needs your personal context. Like, it's not even worth it if you're not willing to teach it about yourself. And so I think at some point, actually, these MacBooks and your phones are going to get strong enough and open source models are going to get small enough and powerful enough that they can run locally on device. In the meantime, you have to be OK sending your data to an API that is going to, you know, integrate it into the model.

45:13um but i mean as you know what we found is like people will make that trade actually the same friend i was talking about he's gonna hate me for saying this i had this moment where i was like you gotta ban tiktok like this is just this is just bad for like get get rid of it right uh and he's like honestly it brings me so much joy giggling at these tiktok videos all day like the ccp can have it all if like my time on the toilet feels like that enjoyable so i would say that is on one extreme of the spectrum but generally i think if you show up to someone like hey you're busy you got a lot of stuff going on in your life here's this thing that can actually help you in meaningfully new ways and all you have to do is browse like you've always browsed and we're just going to use your browsing data and you know to to train an ai model to be better for you i actually think as many people would be willing to do that andrew you had a question yeah i had a question and it's not dia specific but ai browser specific and maybe since you're in this it's a question we ask all the time and might be able to shine some light on it but we talk all the time about these like uh conversational like searches instead of old school links and everything like that and a lot of that comes down to like what's the best tv i should buy you know asking a question is consumer based but it's scraping data from websites where a reporter spent time where that reporter gets paid by advertisers on the site how or have you thought about at all whether it's dia or just in general like how are people like that compensated or even like you know we make youtube videos and And there's lots of stuff about ChatGPT probably scraping a ton of YouTube videos.

46:42So we're losing viewers. The people who are doing the original personal content are potentially losing out. And then it gets to the whole dead internet theory of later on, who's going to be making these articles that AI scrapes from anymore? Yeah. Sorry, that's a very big question. No, I don't get to come on the podcast and just get the softballs. I'm here as long as you guys want. So there's the kind of the DIA specific, what we've observed, and I think there's the larger ecosystem question. On the DIA side, this goes back when we started, when I first had my own ideas about AI, I was thinking about it much more in the what are the things I already do in a search engine or browser and how does AI make it better?

47:22And that's where I was missing the forest for the trees. What we see in DIA is people aren't using it to do that sort of stuff. It's almost like a companion or a partner on whatever they're working on. So, you know, an example that we put in a video, which came from a college student is you're buying a used car. You have two links of similar models side by side and India split screen, which is the same as arcs. And you're like, what's the difference? I'm not a car guy. Like, help me understand the difference. And then you have Dia's sidebar or Dia's chat sidebar as a way to kind of like work through and understand the difference between those.

47:54That's true with writing. You have a document open and you're working through it and you have it right there side by side. So what we're seeing is the most popular use cases in DIA are less of a, hey, I was doing this before and now I'm doing this. And much more like I couldn't turn to my computer to have opinions before. My computer never had opinions. It couldn't be subjective and now it can. So that is kind of what I was saying before about the narrative. We get so locked into these kind of memes in our industry that I think we're missing what people are generally actually doing. So it's less of a I'm going to Gemini, I'm going to ChatGPT and just asking random questions.

48:27And it's more of a I'm using my browser like I've always used a browser. But now I'm just understanding the context of what's on the page better. Of the page that I've already opened. Again, I haven't been on any press or anything yet. So I'm still working through how to talk about this. But think about it like this. One of the ideas behind ARK was that how do you put what matters to someone's life at the top instead of these tech ideas? And what I mean by that is like you got to buy a used car. That's at the top of the pyramid. That's what matters to you. And so in order to do that, you need car sites.

48:57And you need to read things and you need to check out the photos and all that stuff. What is new is now our computers can have the perception of thinking, having opinions, giving feedback, critiquing, joking. And that is just a new tool in the toolkit of buying a used car. And so what's new is that, in my opinion, it's that almost emotional intelligence, not the IQ, that is so new and what people are really turning to it for. Not just doing the thing we used to do, that old tool we had in a new way where there's definitely that. to come back to your ecosystem question which is what i think you were really answering though this is where i think other people go on podcasts and stuff i have no idea no one has any idea and i think it's one of i don't want to i don't know if scary is the right word but like the web as we know it was broken is breaking even faster and some it just doesn't make sense anymore so i don't i don't not only do not i not have an answer to what replaces the web and the incentive structure um i haven't heard anything from anyone that suggests and and it's just this complex problem where it's what's so wonderful about the web is it's decentralized and it's open there's so many different actors and players in it that kind of need to work together and in 2025 we don't generally work together on things that affect all society very well right now so i don't know man but this is why it just it feels like it's coming and our approach has always been we have this value assume you don't know, which is like, we have no idea what we're doing.

50:24So how do you proceed if you have no idea what you're doing? You build stuff really quickly. You go to the MKBHD office, you give them dia. They tell you, you got a lot of work to do. You go back to work, you come back. And so like our approach is like, just get in there, have these conversations and try our best. But in terms of like, how are publishers like insert your favorites publisher that post text based blog posts that were accessed through Google search engines, what happens after that? Yeah. We're about to find out. It is a big question. I was just going to mention, because one of my biggest pet peeves is I'll be on Twitter and I'll post a video and someone will be like, Grok, tell me what this video says.

51:02And then they'll summarize the video and be like, great, I'm not going to watch the video now. Great. Okay. So now half the people who were going to watch it lose that information bit. But some people will still watch it for entertainment value. And to use the buying a used car analogy, there are so many different behaviors that I see, which is there are people who just want to speed run learning about the car, don't really care too much about it, but just need to know like, what's the difference between these two cars? And that is going to pull from some Motor Trend article reviewing the car passionately.

51:34That's going to pull from some YouTube video of a guy who used the car for years and did a daily driver 30 minute video. And that kind of breaks a little bit when the incentive goes away. But it also will potentially be a world where someone will go to the Motor Trend article and will read some of it and will ask the sidebar chat for more information or more context to better understand it. Or they'll watch the 30-minute YouTube video and 10 minutes in, they'll pause and ask for some more context to better watch the video. So there's different behaviors. There's different directions that this could go.

52:07We don't know. No one seems to know exactly what's going to happen, but it's interesting. And I would take the other side on one specific part. I think that the most kind of soulful, original, in-depth brands and publishers are gonna do better than ever, right? I actually think the MKBHDs of the world, I don't think people are dumb. And I think when you're gonna buy a gadget or you're trying to understand something that matters to your life, I think you're gonna turn, especially in a world of all this AI generated everything, I think you're gonna turn to the best of the best more than ever. And I think you're going to be willing to pay more and do more than ever before.

52:46What happens to the long tail of the blog that covers air conditioners in a kind of more SEO driven way and that sort of that that type of business and media company? I have no idea. But like if I can invest in MKBHD in the world of AI, I would invest a lot of money. And I'm not just saying that because I'm here. I really believe it. And I think in some ways you even see that a little bit with the browser company. Like I've always thought about how people's love for, maybe love's a strong word, but endearment to what we're doing and how we're doing it far outweighed our scale. You know, like we wrote a Substack post yesterday that announced nothing new.

53:24It just shared some new data in a clearer way. And it like was at the top of tech meme, which like everyone in the industry reads. That is disproportionate with our user base, with everything. It was cool, but it didn't make any sense to me. And because I think the way we showed up in the world had a little more soul and spirit and opinion and personality than other startups did. And I think that across industries, including media, is just going to continue. And I think it's going to, by the way, I don't know, there's nothing to do with us, but I just, I just think people are long, they can feel that character.

53:57And I think in a world of AI, people are going to gravitate towards that more and more. Still breaks a lot of media, you know, I don't know who sells ad for this podcast, but they probably would disagree. but like i think you all are good you are good you can rest easy that you all are good our like anecdotal version of that is no matter how much we make of like a review of something marquez will get x amount of people like dozens if not hundreds of people being like oh yeah but what do you really think of like this phone and like that feels like the type of average person to me that's going to go into that ai chat and be like what does marquez like which phone should i buy and then not actually go into our video that we spent a lot of time making and and let it decide for them and like it when it's pulling from our stuff or when it's pulling from a verge reporter doing a review of that that's where what is is your are you are the graphs that you care about relative to 12 months ago are they up are they in the middle are they down i think they're in the middle but i've always also thought about the videos that when we are so in the weeds but it's fine we i think the the i think of our audience as kind of two main buckets one subscribes and watches videos purely for entertainment value and not for any information or should i buy it at all yeah and so they'll watch one of the most common questions i get or answers that i get is oh i love the videos i never buy anything you're making videos about but i just like watching them and then the other bucket is purely informational they are here because they are on a quest of finding information and figuring out if they should buy the thing or not.

55:26And I think part of what we're talking about here is wiping out one of the buckets, which is that second one, which is I am here for the information, pause the video, ask it a question, get the answer, peace out. And the entertainment portion, which we happen to have an audience that's here for that too, will remain. And I think what we're probably more concerned about is those that have way less of the entertainment value and are more on the SEO end of like, we have a mission of like delivering information about these products and people don't like show up here for entertainment necessarily. They just come here for the information.

55:58Yeah. And now those people aren't going to come here anymore. Yeah. So that's that's one of those scary questions, I think, for that specific type of publisher. Yeah, I would say I mean, I think it depends on the query. So I think for a query about the American Revolution is different than I'm going to buy something in my life. At least what we've seen, it's very anecdotal is I think people treat the first result back from an AI chat tool in the same way they treated a Google results page. It's a jumping off point. I don't think that's true for all types of queries, but for these types of queries.

56:28But David Pierce from The Verge has said something again and again that has really stuck with me that is, and I'm going to paraphrase. And sorry, David, you did this on your own podcast about something I said, so I get to do this about you. We're fine. Just like media companies need to make the best products and they need to think about what they do as products. And so I have no doubt that whatever is going on in your graphs, whatever you're worried about this crew and this office setup is awesome. You're going to make a better product. And so that's actually part of the reason I'm kind of like doing this and doing the sub stack posts is I regret not being unapologetically, uh, open to the idea that this was all going to change, even if I didn't buy into this AGI and all this other stuff.

57:09And like, what do we got to do to be ready? And so I feel like in some way it's like, okay, if that's what you're worried about you have so much creativity in the tools here that i have no doubt you will make a better product for i want to buy x how do you do it then whatever thing is going to pop out of some ai model yeah i think yeah there's gonna again we don't know what the behavior of the user in the future is we know what we see now and we know where the trends are inflecting towards yeah but how much they change and whether they totally flip on their head is a completely unanswered question which i think is something we might lose a little bit because we're so focused on the now And I think it's an interesting thing.

57:44And it's scary. And again, it challenges a lot of people and companies. But when we started the browser company, the reason we called it the browser company of New York was because we were so bored of startups and startup names and startup products. It was just like a boring moment. Quibi. Right? Yeah. And so the reason I say that is like, I think it is exhilarating, if not a little bit scary. but it's just, there's a moment of creation and rebirth happening here. And in some ways that are a bummer and in some ways they're like, man, I'm, I got a, I got two sons that I'm like, man, I'm not excited for how we deal with that in a bit.

58:21And in other ways, it's like, I bet you come here every day to do things like, how do we do this new product challenge? You know, like you wouldn't be doing this. You would have sold this company or done this a lot differently if you did enjoy that challenge. So that's how we're trying to show up to this is like, yeah, we have no idea, but how privileged are we that we are at the age we are in the industry that we are in this moment in time like yeah i know that sounds very cheesy but to ground us a little bit um do you have like a timeline of when dia will feel like this product that you are sort of pitching because i think right now i think a lot of the backlash from arc being i don't know about sunset but maintained and dia coming out is that part of the reason that people love ARK is because you built in the open.

59:07And now you're building Dia in the open. I think a lot of those ARK users love the browser company, so they were frustrated that ARK was being sunset. Not being sunsetted. Not being sunsetted. Being maintained. Sorry, being maintained. Is that the version of Dia that people have access to right now is very bare bones and doesn't necessarily meet the more grand or ideas that you have for how you're going to interact with this AI browser. So do you have like a timeline of when people are going to be able to play with something that has those capabilities? Yeah, it obviously depends on what bits you're talking about, but I'll try to answer.

59:44By the way, yeah, some other point over beer is I'd love to talk about the pros and cons of building in public and being transparent in public on YouTube. But yeah, actually, when my second son was born, I like left the hospital in Paris, actually, to go get food for my wife. And someone's like, hey, ARK, I love it. I was like, whoa, this is like a new, this is not what I thought was gonna. But in any event, to answer your question super directly, I'd say if you're someone that tried ARK or has never tried ARK and you tried DIA to get to the bar where you're like, oh, this feels better than Chrome, six weeks.

1:00:16You are on an old version, but I feel good about that. In terms of the both, I'd say, grander of what I'm talking about, which again, was always there with ARK. So we're gonna be an internet computer operating system for their web. the grander and the i'd say arc members feeling like it has enough of the basic you know the things that they look the vertical sidebar i'd say somewhere between labor day and thanksgiving um but again on the hey you just browse like you normally do and this like model self-personalizes that's going to be a many many year thing but what we did with arc was just like let's be honest about where we're going and build it in public and around people like you know the other day one of things we're going to release soon in the kind of when we give it to arc members very soon is there were these college students that were hacking our personalization features to make these mini apps like almost like ai apps so they created the syntax where they would be like when i do back slash gadgets i want you to do these 17 things and so then they'd go they'd hit a new tab and do backslash gadgets and then whatever they wanted to do and they kind of like made their own little apps.

1:01:22And we're like, well, and multiple did for different use cases. And this goes back to the like native to the technology, native to the phone. We're like, well, that's pretty wild. And so what we've been sprinting to do, you know, that we weren't going to do five weeks ago is like, man, we got to formalize this and see if we make it even easier what other people do. And so that's all to say part of the reason that, you know, the grander, it won't be there, you know, right away is the stuff's hard and it takes time. But part of the reason is the reason Arc is so beloved is because we were like, we have no idea what we're doing.

1:01:52Let's put some stuff out there, see what people do react to it. And so we also want to have time to say, maybe the big idea here is actually AI native apps aren't going to be these agents. They're going to be these like user created and shared little mini apps that - It's an idea. It's an idea. It's definitely an idea. It's a definitely idea. I guess I'll throw out one more and maybe we end with this is a feature suggestion. Please. So I think you mentioned earlier, you know, Arc is maintained, and Dia is rapidly evolving and maybe adds features from Arc. Yes. And I think you spoke a lot about the novelty factor of trying to keep it familiar, easy to understand, doesn't look too crazy.

1:02:26There's this setup process on a couple different phones. I think Asus phones is one of them, super niche. But I log into the phone, I set up the phone, and then I land on a splash screen. And the splash screen is a direct fork between how do you want this to look? Just like Chrome or just like Arc? And I think if I was logging in for the first time and I was going to set up Dia and I was showing this to my cousin, he would just fork over and use the version that starts off looking just like Chrome. And I think a lot of people would see the, make it look, give me the Arc stuff button and they would click that button and they would love it.

1:02:57Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that would be a hero button for Dia. If it, you know, obviously I think you want it to be a mass product and it'll be a focus for the future. I think a lot of people would love a lot of these features in Dia with just a click. I love that. I mean, and the original like internal saying we had for Arc was we want to make it your home on the internet so it doesn't feel like you're browsing in some generic hotel room, but it's yours. I think this is very much in the spirit of that, which is like your browser, your user agent should look like whatever you want it to look like.

1:03:24So I love that. We'll come back on the pod when that happens and give you a shout out. I bet. Deal. All right. Cool. Thank you so much. Awesome. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. All right. That is it. Thank you again to Josh for joining us and let us know what you think. Are those answers convincing? Do we think this browser has a future? Would you use something like Dia? Would you use something like Arc? Are you still gonna be a Chrome person? Let us know in the comment section below. But either way, we'll see you guys very soon, back with your regularly scheduled programming on Friday. See you then, peace.

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