Is Apple Breaking the Law?

30:38But okay, Google I.O. Google. we've seen endless leaks of uh possible pixel what is it 8a yeah and we i think expect that to finally be unveiled at least and then i still wish they would just drop it with the mainline phones and beyond the same number yeah nothing's stopping them yeah nothing is stopping google's just themselves they make a 350 phone and google's is 500 now yeah they don't want to maybe they just want to overshadow their more expensive phones who would buy a 900 pixel if the 350 pixel came about the same day yeah and we were also talking about how the aa is basically the eight yeah so so i guess i have never mind i get it all right uh they could yeah it's like a mid-cycle refresh in a way or like a mid-cycle like hey yeah you can buy this slightly cut down one i guess we're expecting though updates on uh gemini on the phone versus assistant on the phone because at this very moment in time it's not clear why people should be moving from one to the other i do have a potential theory and it might be too early for this but i assume we can probably assume that the eventual plan is to either deprecate assistant or deprecate gemini and eventually merge them into one or actually probably what's going to happen is because right now gemini the official naming is like google gemini powered by gemini ultra 1.5 or something like that and i think they're doing that very intentionally so that they can like get recognition for the model so that later they can say google assistant is now powered by gemini ultra 2.4 so it's still the model so i imagine and this is just a theory that maybe at this google io they'll announce they're working on merging them so that everything is just google assistant again i thought you were going to say the more Google thing of kill both of them and remake a new one.

32:36It's called Google Messenger. It's called Hangouts. I do hope we see something that's not this make the decision between Assistant on your phone or Gemini on your phone. Yeah. That's absurd. They need to mix them. They're eventually, I assume, going to mix them, but I just would like that to happen sooner rather than later. Yeah. That's honestly the biggest update I'm expecting. Yeah. And then obviously Android updates as well in general. But yeah, very different style. Yeah. So similar question before, assuming Gemini is going to the iPhone, does Google talk about Apple? No. And how they're going to be powering things on the iPhone.

33:19Maybe. Which is also funny because it's earlier than WWDC. Oh, so they can't. So they couldn't. They can't. They wouldn't be able to. You don't think so? I don't think Apple would. Because Apple hasn't announced anything AI related yet. Imagine Sundar on stage like, by the way, we're going to power whatever Apple's coming out with in the next month. They might say something like, we've established some leading industry partners that are going to be exciting in the coming year. They'll be cryptic about that for sure. I do think it's harder, but they have announced things before, like with Samsung before Samsung's announced things, right?

33:53At I.O. I know it's different. I know, I know. I'm just saying it's not that wild. Interesting. Yeah. No, they'll be, I'm sure they'll announce some, some feature stuff that we don't see coming. I hope they do. I hope they say something about working with Apple. Here's the bet. Before Apple. Here's a, I would love this bet. Here's another bet. Who will say AI more on, on stage? And why is it Google? Yeah. Because they will say it. Google's taking what they did last year and they're, they're amping it up. Wait, actually, here's the bet. Will, will Google say AI more or less times than last AI? Yeah.

34:23What's the over under? Yeah. what is last IO? Like 150 or something? Oh, let me just find that out real quick, Andrew. Oh, no. I'm waiting. Someone's got to do a super cut. Someone's got to get the super cut machine ready because we got to use that to count how many times they say it. It was 137. Yeah, I was going to say we could throw that into Descript. I said 150. Dang. Wow, okay. Yeah, 137 over under 150. It's going to be hard to say it more. Over. You remember that last presentation, right? They literally were saying it nonstop. It's like every sentence. I'm going under because I think they'll say more different types of buzzwords, like models and large language and stuff like that.

35:07They're going to say multimodal like eight times as many times as they did last time. Yeah. They need to flex what's different about Gemini versus the other models. And unless GPT-5 comes out, which I'm assuming is going to be multimodal, unless that comes out before I.O. They're going to flex the hell out of it. So what's your over under? Over 137? 150. I'm under. I would say if Google wants to flex, they should pretend to just move on from AI. They should be like, other companies are just now getting to AI. We're on to SAI, super advanced AI. Oh, God. Here we are. Super smart AI. Super smart AI.

35:50AI type R. Do you think if Apple at DubDub mentions Google, they'll say gift from Google? Do you think the audience will boo if they mention Google? We're there, we'll boo. Okay, so I'm going under because I do think that eventually the terminology AI is going to just get tired and it's going to be the same as machine learning, big data, internet of things it's the same with all of these buzzwords like everyone uses them for a while so that the stock price goes up and then eventually when it's the industry norm people just start stop talking we're in the thick of it now i feel like we're in the thick of it we're in the thick of it but i also think last year was thicker uh i would argue this year's there's more going on i think it's more in the public knowledge at least than last year apple says it's so little that if this is the first year they say ai a hundred times on stage everyone's ships lifted from that if you're in the ai boat which is why google has the chance to like separate themselves again and be like we were beyond ai we're even better we're in the galaxy speaking of things speaking of galaxy speaking of galaxy i'm going over i think that happened i agree with both of you that goes next year i'm saying continue i'm gonna say under all right okay ellis uh i'm gonna take i'm gonna take the over really yes i think they're gonna start on pace to be over because sundar is going to open with a monologue about ai if i run on stage and yell ai a bunch of times does that count yes it's if you make it they will have to use it like more than once a minute every minute of io which they ios two hours exactly which is 120 minutes but they easily i mean they did that last year that's what i'm saying so i'm i'm i'm taking the dude every 20 seconds for two hours if they hit the uh i think there's a chance they go back and watch some of the early minutes of last year's I am.

37:48It is far greater than every two minutes. If they partner with that audio company, I, I, I, does that count? Do we get three there? I'm almost expecting some sort of meme about it at some point where they just go, A, I, A, I, A, I, A, I, A, I, A, I, like just as like a Whopper song. Whopper, Whopper, chicken Whopper. Yeah, I don't know if Google would meme it, but I'm going under. All right, now use that beautiful segue again. Speaking of. Speaking of the Galaxy. No, I just want to mention some of those Galaxy AI features that were on the Galaxy S24 that we were like, wow, thanks to the new Snapdragon chip, they can do this circle to search really fast and they can do all this stuff.

38:28Yeah, it's on the S23 now. Yeah. It's also not thanks to the Snapdragon chip because it's on the Pixel as well. Yeah. So. Fuck. That whole exclusive thing. Yeah. Yeah. Every year it's always like only on the newest Snapdragon can we enable this. and then two months later they're like we figured out a way since you were on the oldest wow break good of thought huge breakthrough totally not planned obsolescence okay wait so i have a question about that do you think it's a hardware thing where they're physically holding back hardware like chips exclusively for like two months or is it like a no software no it's completely device so give you a reason to buy the new device yeah but in theory then if you were to get a new device that has that chip could you just enable it yourself but it's not even about the chip that's the thing what do you know it's always about the chip but it's never about the chip it's we have a new device here and there's very little new so we're going to take some of these software features and lock them to the new device so that when this launches it looks like a more impressive delta and then three or four weeks or maybe a month or two later we go all right sales spike is over?

39:42Alright, you guys can have it too. This is actually something we could put on all of our devices. So it's just a software release. It's a lie. Which, you know, to be fair, I should be, I'm grateful that they put it on the older devices. They don't have to. Obviously, they're taking the time to support older devices, so I'm happy about that. They're going to do it anyway because hardware on phones isn't giving you the big new feature that you want to upgrade your phone for. Software is. So, like, they're going to lock it one way or another i guess we should be yeah maybe not happy but i'm glad that yeah you know what i mean though like they don't have to do it and they will lock it to make you buy new phones the sales graph is like release three months later we're here and they're like all right you gotta throw them a bone yeah yeah so uh yeah but the funny thing about that is they never actually said it was going to stay free.

40:37They said it was free until at least 2025. For what feature? For all the Galaxy AI features. No way. Yeah, in the fine print, it says free until at least 2025. You think they're gonna... I don't know. That's literally the reason I have not been using the AI features on my phone. Because I don't wanna love it. Do you have to turn it on? No, they're just there. Oh, they're there, yeah. Right, the way Adam does things is he doesn't use things that he doesn't wanna later want to use if he switches devices. So when he's on an iPhone, he doesn't use iMessage. Which I can't tell if that's really healthy or really unhealthy.

41:06I think it's healthy. I think it's kind of smart. I need cross-platform connectivity for everything. Everything. Can we iMessage? Yeah, but I turned it off eventually. I turn it on every once in a while, see what it's like, dip my toe in, and then just turn it off again. It's a bad. I disappoint everyone in my family. You don't want to dip your toe in. Dang, man. Yeah. I respect that. But also, you're missing out on a lot. Circle search is pretty sick. Yeah. Oh, wait. Yeah, but I don't want to pay for that. So I'm just not going to use it. I, yeah. would they charge for that? So okay, my theory is that Get you hooked, man.

41:38Yeah. I mean, yeah. My theory is that they are testing the waters to see how much people actually use these AI features and if it starts being a lot that means it's going to cost them a lot of inference costs to Google or OpenAI or whoever they're using as their backend because they have to pay on like a per use basis. Per query. Per query. And so if it ends up costing a lot of money, they'll probably start charging. And they have a huge user base. They have the option to start charging people. That's why they said free until at least 2025. They're like, we're gonna wait and see, but this does cost a lot of money, so let's figure it out.

42:16Would it be fair to say that we don't know how much something like this would cost, period? Every single person constantly pinging data centers and running transformer models? OpenAI has transparent costs for queries queries and stuff for like different types of but like yeah at at a like mass adoption scale like like could that have the potential to actually like cost billions of dollars and not be sustainable at all correct no further questions that's sort of that's sort of the trade-off you have to make is like you could train your own models but training your own models costs hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars so that so instead you just lease models from other people so that's sort of the trade-off is like if you don't have a lot of users you might as well just lease because it's not going to cost you that much but the users you do have are going to be very happy but if you hit a critical mass where you have so many people that leasing those models is costing you so much money you might as well just put the money in now to train your own model so but i and i meant like operating the models too like operating the data centers oh yeah no that costs a crap load of money that's what right for sure more on that coming up in june way may AI stuff well may isn't it may for IO sorry for IO oh it's May yeah uh and then IO is June right okay no IO is May sorry IO is May dub dub is June and Zendaya is we should take a break before we this goes completely off the rails uh let's do trivia trivia i was thinking i'm glad you said it okay uh so i have i'm gonna do we'll do the menu thing today i have a relevant apple interacts with third-party companies question or i have a fun classic youtube question oh youtube classic youtube yes please all right can we do the other one after as the second one we'll see we'll see how the rhythm of the night goes So uploaded June 16th, 2009.

44:17I know the answer. This 4.4 billion view masterpiece is the oldest video on YouTube's all time top 30 list. What video is it? Wait, oldest video on the top 30? On the top 30 all time most views. This is the oldest video on that list. Uploaded June 16th, 2009. It currently has 4.4 billion views. If you did multiple choice, I guarantee I would get it right. But because it's not, there are too many possible options. But I'm going to try. Well, let me say this. This is the only video on the top 30 list uploaded in 2009. Yeah. Me at the zoo didn't get this many views. There was my answer. There's one.

45:08That one is a couple hundred million. Shakira's Waka Waka was uploaded in 2010. Oh I think I know what it is. So it's not that one and then I didn't even know. Great song by the way There's another. Just saying. There's a 2011 video that was uploaded by T-Series In 2011? In 2011. I didn't even know that video said over 4 billion I remember when Gangnam Style was the first video to ever get 1 billion. It was. Baby Shark has 14 billion. I was gonna say that And that's just one version of it Planet Earth planet earth doesn't have that many babies to watch that how many people we have like eight billion people yeah total yeah the average they're all watching baby shark like twice yo that stat is actually crazy because if you think about it there are a lot of babies who haven't seen baby shark which means the average number of times each baby who has seen Baby Shark has replayed it is probably insane.

46:04I will say that I bet you parents just cycle Baby Shark without watching it just as music on YouTube. It's kind of like... Do you remember the era before Spotify where the way that people would listen to music was to just watch YouTube videos? Oh yeah, that's how they got like billions. That's how they get repeat views. Yeah. For sure. People didn't really care about the music video. They just wanted to hear the song. When I got my first iPod Touch that came with the YouTube app and as soon as it clicked for me I was like, it's over for the music industry i'm never paying again the youtube app was pretty pretty og even just baby shark on spotify has 685 million plays that's way less than i expected but that's only the audio version and not including the like probably 20 different ways you can listen to it on youtube there's probably 8 000 remixes of it as well compared to 14 billion has nothing it's it is nothing despacito has 8 billion views which is kind of funny that like everyone has seen despacito once i've never seen the music video.

47:01I think See You Again also has like 7 billion. I was just going to say, how many times have you guys seen the Baby Shark video? Zero. Never watched it. You've never watched it? Never watched it. I've watched it at least six times. That's the thing. Zero or six. Someone played it when you brought it for your dog. Because I see this list all the time and I'm like, oh. I should watch it. Just for posterity. Someone put it on when I brought Lane in the other day. For posterity? Oh yeah. Yeah. That's the first time I've ever started to watch it. Don't submit your child. No, she only listens to Creed.

47:29thank god okay we'll take a break we'll be back with the answers of course at the end see you soon

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48:22And if you get stuck, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award-winning 24-7 customer support. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. You can turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side. You can sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash waveform. So just go to shopify.com slash waveform, shopify.com slash waveform. Welcome back. I want to sue every company on the planet who publishes news on Thursdays. because it means that we don't talk about it. In our defense, they published this Thursday afternoon. So even if we recorded on Thursdays, we probably would have missed it.

49:06It was also funny because the bonus episode came out and there were people like, two episodes now where you haven't talked about this. We recorded that a month ago. Come on. So anyway. So we're finally going to talk about it. Okay. Yes. What we missed last week, the Department of Justice has formerly sued Apple Inc. over monopolization stuff. And there's a whole big old 88-page court filing that I read that was a little hard to read. But also, it was kind of written in like a story way, which was interesting. Like, it literally starts off with this. Okay, the way this filing starts off is a story.

49:47Once upon a time in a land far away. Kind of. It's retelling this Amazon Kindle ad about how this person was like using the Kindle app on their iPhone and then grabs an Android phone and continues reading the Kindle app on their Android phone. And there's an email from an Apple person, which stop sending emails that are incriminating, guys. Like, just stop doing this. Who says, look at this ad. You can easily switch to reading your Kindle on an Android phone. That's a bad thing. That's a terrible thing. And it's like, why? You know. So they're clearly saying we want to create these gates. This is literally how the filings opens to kind of paint this this picture of how Apple is trying to keep you in their ecosystem.

50:36That's compelling. Yeah. It's a good story. It's like a music video. No, it kind of is. Yeah. No, it tells multiple stories like this. If only Despacito started this way. But it centers around Apple building a dominant iPhone ecosystem and intentionally stifling competitors' ability to compete and also locking in users, things we all know that Apple just does. It also complains about shifting restrictions and rules with the App Store. And then also it makes all of these allegories to when they broke up Microsoft. Well, they didn't break up Microsoft, but when they sued Microsoft way back when.

51:14And they say that Apple only grew to the behemoth that they are today because of that lawsuit. Effectively, what was happening at the time is Microsoft was making QuickTime not work correctly on Windows computers. which had like 97 % of the market at the time. And they had apparently actually intentionally written code into Windows computers that would make QuickTime break and just not work, which basically didn't. Yeah. I feel like I experienced this. You probably did. You didn't do Windows Media Player with the cool. No, I had that. Well, you had to, I guess. I definitely stared at that for a while.

51:53But I think QuickTime was one of the early screen recorders and it was not good. Yeah. On Windows. And iTunes is like founded in QuickTime. So the way that the Department of Justice painted this was only because we sued Microsoft and forced them to allow Apple to create applications on your platform that work correctly was Apple able to launch iTunes and therefore launch the iPod, which they say is the whole reason that Apple like grew to the behemoth that they are today. I'm sure that's a reason. I would say the Mac is probably a more um like valuable product for them but the ipod obviously did sort of start a whole thing for them it allowed them to be a platform you know it definitely did and but could you argue that mac got more popular because they went after microsoft and hurt microsoft in some way which had such market share so like yeah so the department of justice created apple is what they're getting it yeah that's what they're saying yeah which is funny uh anyway there are five primary complaints in this document and i figure that we go through all of them and just kind of discuss like if they're valid or not because there's a lot of controversial takes in this filing there's a lot of things that i would say like i kind of see what you're saying but i feel like you're reaching in order to just break up apple you know yeah i would say like before we get into these yeah what would uh what would a success look like for the doj for suing apple because breaking up apple doesn't seem possible but like what do they actually want to accomplish here i think that i mean there's five different categories and i would assume that it's like winning on all five of these categories and if if they win then they change apple change apple's behavior in some way basically changing their behavior i think is what they're trying to do okay okay so let's just go through the five categories in order okay the number one category that the department of justice says Apple is anti-competitive for is not allowing super apps, which I don't really understand this complaint very much because we just don't really have super apps in the United States.

54:03What is a super app? So we don't, but in China there's this app called WeChat, which is a super app. And the argument is that Apple does things like delay updates to WeChat and things like that, that make it just more difficult to have that on the app store. so we chat is on the app store which is why i find it confusing a super app by the way is like it's an app that you can do a ton of different things and so in china yeah so in china there's a super the the super app is called we chat and you can pay your taxes in we chat you can order a taxi and you can make a dentist appointment and then when you get to your dentist office you sign in check in with we chat and pay with we chat yeah you pay with we chat it's like it's it's everything and so i think the the department of justice is reasoning here is if you have a single app that allows you to do anything and it's not about the hardware at all you could easily move to an android phone because as long as you have this app that has all these services on it that are interoperable depending on like and it doesn't matter what hardware you're using then it would be a lot easier for people to move to android phones and they're saying apple's not allowing that yes which I don't really understand.

55:13I think it's because even though the app is on the App Store, it's a cut-down version of the full mobile app. It doesn't have full functionality. So, like, I'm looking at the reviews right now in the App Store, and one of the reviews is a three-star review, and it says, still very annoying to have to use the mobile version to get the full system to work at all. The mobile version? I'm assuming, like, mobile in-browser version or something like that. It's not just the app. Yeah, all these different features that WeChat has built in, you get a sliced down mobile version in Apple's app. Versus if you have an Android phone, you just get the full app and the full experience.

55:49Interesting. I would also guess that Apple has a lot of restrictions on what apps are allowed to do. Yeah, I think that's probably what it's going to do. Something else that Apple has been specifically trying to block is having too many microservices within an app. Because then they have to review everything that the app can do. Right? Their main complaint around not allowing game streaming services, which they now do, which is strange that the game streaming thing is a complaint because they now allow game streaming services. Their main reason that they didn't allow game streaming services for a long period of time is because they were saying, we'd have to review every single game that's on the service to make sure that it's not harmful to the user.

56:31And every time there's an update to any of the games on a game streaming service, we'd have to review every single update to every single title on a game streaming service. The Department of Justice says that the reason that they didn't allow that was that you could use any hardware. There's an email from an Apple person that says, here's a problem. If a user goes to a garage sale and pays five bucks for an Android phone and everything is cloud based, they don't need high end hardware and then they don't even need an iPhone. That's an issue. We should deal with that. Yeah, this is this is coming back again to like I'm sure with each one of these complaints, Apple has a public facing reason and a real reason.

57:14Right. And I feel like we're going to hear a lot in the public of what Apple will say is the reason. But we also know that they clearly do not want the walls of the garden to get any smaller. Yeah. Yeah. The juiciest part of this entire thing is going to be discovery where the Department of Justice gets to go through all of their emails and we get to find out. Find the real reasons. Yeah. It's going to be amazing. Yeah. So what do you guys think about this super app thing? I think it's right in line. So the reason that Apple will say is this super app thing, it does too many things, it takes too long to review, and it is not something that we want in our store.

57:50But the real reason that's also true is if someone uses all of the features of this super app to do everything and doesn't need anything else about the iPhone, then they can easily switch to another phone. So theoretically, that's one of the reasons that they should change and allow super apps. I get it. Which is kind of like the Fediverse, just saying. it is also kind of weird that apple's like well we have to look over all of these different things and like come on that's a lot of stuff it's like you own an insane amount of market share you have plenty of resources like it's a little weird to be like come on we can't do all you can't expect us to do all of that we're just like the number one company no but you can't expect the game stores to even submit all of that like yeah like on the xbox cloud gaming thing it's like there's thousands of titles right like our how's that process even gonna work yeah in january of this year apple actually started allowing game streaming yeah so this complaint is kind of moot now um and it's kind of weird that it's in the filing at all but you know they probably finished it before yeah the government doesn't work quickly yeah but also netflix exists does someone at apple sit down and watch every movie well no because the movie is not a game how is that any different Dude, if you want to know what constitutes a game, go watch the Epic versus Apple trial.

59:12No, no, I get that. Yeah, exactly. It's still content. Yeah. I think he's saying like, but games can be like more harmful with like microtransactions and things that are more controlling your phone and stuff for controls and stuff. The gutters of Steam to have some things that like barely should never be seen by human eyes. Think about the games that are on the like Google Play Store that actually are just malware. You know? That gets caught multiple times a month. They're like, oh, this game was malware. We had to take it down. So we sort of went through the game streaming one as well as the super app one.

59:48The third one is messaging. And there was some stuff that I learned here that I didn't actually know. Apple doesn't allow third-party apps to send SMS messages. So the only way that you can send an SMS on an iPhone is through the messages app. Okay, yeah, that's pretty straightforward. Which is pretty straightforward. And that's a super easy one to have a public and a private mess. Like the public thing is SMS super insecure. We don't want to just let any app go out sending SMS messages or receiving insecure messages. But obviously if you allow third party apps to send and receive SMS, then people won't use Apple's app to send and receive SMS.

1:00:27Think about getting like two factor authentication codes. Anytime you get one comes through the messages app. the more your messages app shows up in front of your face the more you're just going to start using it yeah what's their reasoning for not one for only having messages to do sms it's just like apple hasn't replied so they haven't replied okay i would guess that it's privacy but the irony the the intense irony is then like then use the open secure standard use rcs uh yeah which they did say they were going to use but we still don't know what the implementation of that's going to be all these things talks yeah clock's ticking that's this year it's supposed to happen yeah but that's such a long period of time it was like in hello december you were that they mentioned no no it was last year last year and they said it would happen in 2024 like december 26 i hope that happens at wwdc but merry christmas here's rcs yeah just like they did with the car play stuff in the porsche where they're like oh we forgot okay fine yeah um so that's a big thing and then obviously they talk about you know the green bubble blue bubble fiasco and just the insane amount of uh high percentage of teenagers who are planning to buy an iphone specifically for that reason it is so high in the united states we understand whatsapp exists please do not comment just use whatsapp but also like every time i read the stats i'm like damn yeah and it just gets higher and higher and higher it's crazy yeah yeah um okay one of the other things was that they do not allow the Apple Watch to work on Android phones and they make the functionality of other smart watches way harder or way worse.

1:02:05So an example of this is that on the Apple Watch, you can respond to messages, you know, with the keyboard or with your voice or all this stuff. You can interact with notifications and it can pull all that kind of stuff. If you use an iPhone and you have a smartwatch, you can't get a notification and pull up the app on your smartwatch. Yeah. You can't respond to a message on your smartwatch if it's connected to an iphone correct adam wait i think so say that again if you have an iphone or if you know if you don't have an iphone yeah or sorry if you have an iphone and you have a non-apple smartwatch then it's like highly deprecated correct yes this is one of the only ones where i feel like i kind of get apple's perspective not even perspective i just feel like competitively they're like look we made this phone and we made this watch and we made our phone work with our watch if you're not one of those tough like obviously it would be nice if you could force apple to make their phone more compatible with other people's stuff but it's like who cares like you don't have to actually that's not actually necessary i think the idea is that they have such dominant market share in the united states right that they're kind of they're abusing their market share to make everything worse to keep people using their products and which again is like in their right to do kind of but also i think the department of justice just cares about promoting competition and without taking action to allow other people to use other devices the percentage of people on iphones and apple watch is just going to go up and up and up yeah this is this is one of those complaints i think that only works because of their dominance yes because you wouldn't even really care if there's another small smartwatch and a small smartphone and they only work with each other fine whatever go in the corner and do your thing yeah i totally agree with that that part i think it i don't know if i or no i don't agree with apple saying like we built this phone we built this watch put them together because there are just other watches that fill specific niches better like garmin is specifically is so good at so many things that it's been doing for so long and to just like take away some basic functionality of what makes it a smart watch then to there are plenty of people who have iphones that probably want a Garmin watch because of maybe the way better GPS or ruggedness of it versus I know they did Apple Watch Ultra, but that feels really shitty.

1:04:31The phrasing is interesting because if you say take away, it's almost like this was out there and they took it away, but they never had to enable it ever in the first place? They never had to enable it ever, but like... That's what they are, you know. Yeah. I get it but I also I agree with Andrew though because like there's ways to differentiate your product based on a compelling feature that users want like the Apple watch has Siri I miss that's a good for sure I agree with the Apple watch the Apple watch the Apple watch the Apple watch the Apple watch the app that I have a Garmin and doesn't have Siri, that's what I get.

1:05:07I don't have an Apple Watch. But I can't turn off certain notifications from apps because I have a Garmin. That is dumb. Yeah, there's a lot of dumb. I would say it would be a much stronger argument for the features of the Apple Watch if all smart watches could have the same access. Then it would be like, all right, we're literally, that's the whole point of this whole lawsuit. But then we would literally just be buying the watch based on which one has the features we like. And some people would pick the Apple Watch, some people would pick the Garmin, some people would pick this and that or whatever.

1:05:34but Apple feels this extra need on top to be like well we don't have to make ours work with others so we just won't and now there's only one choice of an actually full-featured smartwatch for the iPhone right by the logic of Apple made their thing that can only work with their product it's like okay so all other smartwatches now can't tell time no they can all do stuff on their own they just don't have the plugs the hooks into the iPhone to take advantage of the features that come from being connected to an iPhone. But also there's basic features they can't do. Yeah, it sounds like some pretty basic...

1:06:05Like Adam, explain the notifications. So like if I'm on Android and I have a Garmin watch, and this actually happened a couple weeks ago because I walked into Andrew. I walked into the office and I went up to Andrew and I was like, Andrew, can you help me figure out this Garmin thing because I can't figure it out? And we pulled up our phones next to each other and I was on iOS, he was on Android. And I followed him step-by-step into settings to turn off certain app notifications. and on Android it gives you a list of all the apps. I could turn off WhatsApp. I could keep on SMS text messaging. I could turn off Instagram.

1:06:37I could keep on threads. On iOS it's all or nothing. I can only get notifications on my watch or I can't get notifications on my watch. So it's like little things like that where it's like just annoying. Insane. My only question on that is are we sure that's not Garmin making that decision? No, that's an iOS thing. That's Android allows it and iPhone doesn't. And on your Apple Watch, you can choose which notifications. You can turn off individual notifications. That would drive me insane. Yes. Dude, I literally would not use a Garmin watch if I had an iPhone. That's the thing. The complaint is not that it's like that they can't really do it.

1:07:13It's that they're so big that it's the only viable option in the market, really. It's also just wild because, like, Apple is good enough at giving itself differentiating features that, like, I just think will always work better because you're in the same ecosystem, why take the extra step? I think it's because if you just do these little things that make it just like, ah, that's annoying. Ah, that's annoying. That's the whole headphones thing. Yeah. That's like why AirPods are so dominant. It's not like AirPods are the best headphones ever, but there are like two or three magical features that work perfectly with the iPhone that are just the reason people buy it.

1:07:50Question, the W2 chip, right? The chip, yeah. Is that made by Apple? Yeah. but so that's like a two i think is h2 no way is it w2 i thought it was w2 and i think it started as w because it was the same chip from the watch but they changed it to h okay so we'll just call it the chip that connects them i think that's an example of actually they made that chip they made that good it's something specific that is something that just is a feature that is better but like got her jaybird's not gonna have that jaybird can still connect but rather than just like taking away an easy way to connect from jaybird they're giving you something extra i think that's fine and that makes airpods great but like to be like hey your garmin watch can't differentiate notifications is like yeah there's a difference between adding features on top that is like this works there's additional magic that happens with apple products and services versus here's a basic feature that you just can't do if you're connected to something yeah i guess Headphones are more one-dimensional where it's like all you really do is does the audio go to the phone and back?

1:08:54Does it have a mic? Does it pair? Great. But with a smartwatch, there's 15 or 20 features. So it feels much more obvious when 12 of them are nuked. And the weird thing, too, is that this is all happening to Apple customers already. You already have an iPhone and they're punishing you for not buying their other product. It's not like, oh, you have an iPhone? Well, then sure, go buy a Garmin because you're already an iPhone user. It's like, no, you bought a Garmin. now you're going to pay because you didn't buy the Apple Watch. Yeah. And their other complaint is that the Apple Watch is pretty expensive.

1:09:23And because it only works with the iPhone, if you buy an Apple Watch, you're less incentivized to move to an Android phone because then you just have to throw your Apple Watch away. That's an interesting perspective because theoretically, you could switch to an Android phone and then get all of the features that you're talking about that you want from the watch, right? You could get all the specific notifications. back to the garmin thing oh the ghost saying like you okay you have an iphone and you see the garmin you want all the features that you get from android so you theoretically can switch to android and garmin right and I guess their theory is the friction of that you gotta buy another watch though no you have the garmin already oh well I mean okay so you have an iphone you bought the garmin the features don't work you can switch to an android phone on the spot but that friction is enough that people don't do it and instead they don't get the garmin they buy the apple watch and then the apple watch further locks you into the ecosystem because then you bought a$450 watch that only works with your iPhone.

1:10:20So if you decide to switch to an Android phone, your watch is now useless. Yeah. And you have to buy, not only are you throwing away. Yeah. Not only are you throwing away the$400 that you spent, you now have to spend another$300 on a Garmin watch. But that's different. I'm okay with that because that is them differentiating their thing. Like our watch only works with our phone and as much as it sucks, I get it. but taking away features after I already bought the thing that's where I have the issue with it yeah it is I don't know I still think the Apple Watch should work with Android phones I get if it doesn't work as fluidly I will say but like it should have doesn't work the Pixel Watch doesn't work with iPhones so there is that does the Samsung does the Galaxy Watch work with iPhones no it's I know the Galaxy Watch works on it works better with Galaxy phones yeah sure and again I'm like which is slippery Yeah.

1:11:11That's true. What are the things that works better with, though? It's usually because it's just connected to other Samsung apps with inside the Samsung phones. You probably won't have on your normal. I don't know. I used a Samsung watch on my Pixel for a year, and it was totally fine. You can use the Galaxy Watch with the iPhone. I thought there was one, though. So you can use it with an iPhone, but you can't set it up with an iPhone. So you need to first pair it to an Android phone. Are you sure? set it up yeah i'm on reddit right now then unpair it then pair it with an iphone good but in the case of the pixel watch not working at all with an iphone are we mad because google should totally support the iphone or are we like yeah it's a google phone and a google watch this is like the abusing monopoly power question right google is so behind that it we don't really care that said i think we should care because this is how you build monopolies but also though who's restricting the use between them is it google saying you can't yes google yeah google does not because you can build smart watches that will at least connect and work with the iphone theirs doesn't at all and the funny thing is google has just been trying to copy apple's ecosystem play for the last ever since everyone came out yeah but specifically now they're like let's build a watch and headphones and like a laptop like they're specifically trying to match the ecosystem that apple has and they're doing it in a very similar way of like the pixel watch only works on on android phones you know which yeah google's have some has some monopoly claims as well on them they're not scotch free 100 um yeah okay now that we so the watch is a big one the watch is for sure a big one yeah big uh last thing last major complaint is that the access to the NFC chip on iPhones.

1:13:04Oh, yeah. You can only use with like Apple Wallet and Apple Pay. Yeah. And their complaint, which technically true, is that like if I was a bank, I could theoretically offer my own wallet app that maybe could compete with other banks. Because I could say, if you use our wallet app, then we give you special rewards. and then that incentivizes me to move over to Chase or move over to Bank of America or something like that. But because Apple controls the fire hose of Apple Pay and you can only use the NFC chip with Apple Pay on the iPhone, they don't allow anybody to do that. The other thing is that they also take a cut of every payment that is made through Apple Pay.

1:13:53That's not that much different from like using a credit card though right don't credit cards have they do but theoretically as a consumer you have the option to like give that money to chase or bank of america or whatever like on an android phone you can use a different wallet app and make a payment and have someone else take a cut yeah and i use a different service and it'll go through nfc and still for sure like the nfc chip works with it's like a there's an api for the nfc chip that you can use as Samsung or that Samsung Pay could use that or Google Pay could use that. So you have to sort of compete.

1:14:28And I honestly think that that's a reason that Google Pay, one of the many versions of Google Pay that we've had at this point. Google Pay. Like two versions ago or one version ago had this weird reward system going on where like if you use Google Pay more, you would like build up rewards that you could use for like other things. And I don't know. This one's a little weak. I don't think people are gonna go out there and be like, yeah, instead of Apple Pay and Apple Wallet, I want to use Bank of America wallet. People aren't going to do that. But still. But let them fight for it. Let them fight for it.

1:14:57Give them the chance at making that. Ultimately, I think this whole claim is just about competition in the marketplace. Apple specifically makes it so that other people can't even compete with them to offer a better deal that would incentivize consumers to go over there. and one note that I forgot about the super app thing was like the big reason why the Chinese Android market is so insane and why there's like two Android phones coming out per day in China is because everything is about WeChat and so people don't really care about the iPhone over there because they're just like it's an app and I can use whatever hardware I want and it just makes this incredibly vibrant hardware ecosystem It is so different.

1:15:42That's why Xiaomi and Oppo and like so many other OEMs over there are in such fierce competition. It's because they're trying to give you reasons to buy their phone over the other one. The reason a Naruto phone exists is because I'm buying a phone to use WeChat, so I don't really care what's on the phone. But if you can convince me, I'm open to listening. So they're in fierce competition over there, which is really exciting. yeah meanwhile over here we're like no nfc yeah yeah yeah i just remember it was so funny how long other android phones had nfc and how like this niche community around nfc was built up with the little tags and you can be like every time i get in my car i like tap it and it goes into auto mode and navigates home and plays a song i like and it turns on the heater at home like all this stuff i loved and like the iphone never had nfc and when it finally got the nfc chip that whole community was like what can we do it's like oh no it's just there for apple pay like god why Well, now you could do things with it, with like shortcuts and stuff.

1:16:35A few more. It's all somewhere in Apple's ecosystem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a few really amazing quotes from this. There was this quote that someone said, looking at it with hindsight, I think going forward, we need to set a stake in the ground for what features we think are good enough for the consumer. I would argue we're already doing more than what would have been good enough a few years ago. It would be really hard to regress our product features year over year. so someone at Apple is saying we've actually like we already have so much market dominance that we're actually giving you too many new features we should slow down and I actually wish we could take away features so we can trickle feed you these features year over year but that would be really difficult so going forward we need to make sure that we don't innovate too quickly it's like holy crap just sending this stuff to each other in a group chat Stop emailing this stuff.

1:17:31Buy your mom an iPhone. That's in the document. Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that quote is going to haunt Tim Cook for the rest of his career. It so perfectly encapsulates everything, though. Literally. It's the question, the answer, and the way he grins while he answers. It's five words. All of it is so perfect. It's five words that are going to be on his gravestone. It's so perfect for that, yeah. I feel bad for him for that, though, because he was clearly just joking. Not really, but joking. Not really, bro. The only reason it was a good joke is because that sliver of truth is like, but actually it's the only way you can see these videos that your mom is sending you.

1:18:05Yeah. I would argue that when you're the CEO of a trillion dollar company, you lose your joking privileges. Like we have the right to take everything you say. You can make the joke, but we're allowed to take it way too seriously. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. If you have a market cap with nine digits, we don't listen to your jokes anymore. We love you, Tim. Probably a solid rule. Nah. Fair. So yeah. You're paying enough people to clap for you at the events anyways. You don't need us to. If you rewatch that clip, I think it was from Code 2023. It's really awkward because as soon as he says, buy your mom an iPhone, everyone starts laughing like really awkwardly.

1:18:44Like everyone in the crowd is like, uh. And so we leave. Buy your mom an iPhone. It's because he like technically addressed the elephant in the room, which is like, you guys have this huge walled garden. and then I really would like to be able to do this without buying my mom an iPhone. So what are your thoughts? And you're the CEO of Apple. So you can't say anything other than just get your mom an iPhone. Like, what do you think I'm gonna say? So it was kind of funny in the truth of how revealing that was. And what precursor to that statement was someone saying like, hey, so it's like very difficult to message between different devices.

1:19:19Then it's really annoying. It's like him and his mom send blurry messages. Well, before he said the mom comment, He was just like, it's difficult to text. And Tim Cook just says, we haven't heard from our users that they want better interoperability with Android phones. That phrasing is hilarious. Specifically said our users. Because, of course, people that use iMessage are not the ones that are upset about this. So, anyway. Yeah, that's going to go to his grave. This is going to take multiple years in the court system. They're going to appeal it. It's going to be a whole thing. It's why I think I should start making a video about it.

1:19:54Because it'll be evergreen. You should. Because the courts will take forever with this. And I also like, I think the analogy of, we've said the words walled garden so many times that I feel like it's worth actually painting the wall in color so you can see exactly what's happening. This is what happens when you're in the walled garden, and this is the wall you hit when you try to leave. You can't get customized notifications on anything else, so you have another Apple thing. You can't get transparency mode on any of these others with one click, so now you have Apple's headphones too. Now you have Apple's laptop too.

1:20:27Now you have Apple's messaging service too. And that I think is worth a video in some way sort of trying to crystallize that. Even the Vision Pro, it only works with Apple ecosystem apps that are like not available on Android phones. I said it before I came out. I was like, when Apple makes a headset, it will be the one that works with the iPhone. And even though it doesn't connect to the iPhone, it's the one that has iMessage on it. It's the one that has FaceTime on it. It's the one that has the App Store. It's just exactly. you have an android phone and you don't really use an apple id that much the headset's basically worthless yeah i mean you can still i use an android phone and i use an uh i can still use apps in the app store so like there's that if you don't want to use multi-platform apps you can jump in use vision pro apps in there yeah but you're not going to use facetime you're not going to use iMessage you're not going to use probably their built-in email app or safari because you have bookmarks in Chrome, whatever.

1:21:21So yeah, those walls still exist. And I will say, as sort of a way to do on this side, that whole thing about iTunes growing because of Windows, it's kind of a valid point because at the time, Windows had 97 % market share, right? So imagine Apple's trying to grow this new product. Apple's, I don't know, Garmin in this juncture. they're trying to grow this new product but the platform that is completely dominating the market doesn't allow you to put out your application for people to actually use it if itunes couldn't have get gotten put on windows would itunes have like grown to the the point where it was you know if if it couldn't have been put on windows yeah because it couldn't at first yeah quickdine didn't really work with windows at first do you think apple like saw that lawsuit and understands like the line they have to skirt to kind of not turn into that which now they pretty much have but like they're skirting it real close they're skirting it real close i like seeing all of this and seeing all the things if all five of these things change all i think of this is like apple one already like what all of these things happened to put people in this garden and they're in the garden already they're not coming out with all of these things change which i don't even think all these things will change but like let's say every single thing happens for the doj here because it should happen yeah and some of the walls have holes in them now there's a couple holes 25 feet up yeah you can't buy a ladder on the app store to get up there but um it's just like it feels like all these things happen to stifle competition and they stifled it enough to their winning in every aspect yeah i don't it's not going to change very much depending on the implementation of rcs next year I will very likely be switching to an Android phone.

1:23:12Which is why they will be doing everything in their power to implement it in a way that makes that less compelling. Right. I think even that though is such a small user, like it doesn't mean anything to them. The amount of people that would think that is absolutely nothing to Apple. It does feel a little bit like too late. I think your point is there are lots of people who already have the MacBook and the iPhone and the Apple Watch and everything but But there is a world where there are like 12 year olds right now who are about to get their first two devices and maybe they'll get the Garmin watch instead.

1:23:43I guess that's what I should say. It's too late for probably maybe in like our lifetime or in like a couple of generations. Whereas I'm sure when Microsoft got hit with this, people were like, well, they own 97 percent already. It's too late. But now we're at a point where it's like, oh, there is some competition. So maybe they're hitting it now. gets her first phone or when lane's when lane's kids get their phones they might have something different yeah i mean when you're when you're growing up as a kid and like you're a parent and you need to get a phone for your kid you don't want to get them a new like an iphone 15 pro and they're nine years old right please tim would say tim would say that why your mom laine needs a 15 pro max but if your kid's nine years old and all their friends have i message and they're getting bullied for not having i message they're gonna go to you and be like but i need the iphone dad And like if that's not there, that's a nerd.

1:24:31And it's going to have some very funny answers. You're going to love this. But no, no, sorry. That's again, like super anecdotal. If that barrier is there and it's and it's less like those kids can get anything that their parents will give them. And also, you know, people tend to stick with brands for a long period of time throughout their entire life. I remember when the LG G8 ThinQ came out and it was like throwback at least three generations into people just not buying LG phones anymore, really. and i was in uber and the uber guy had it and i was like why did you pick this phone i literally asked him oh i had an aunt yeah yeah she and he was like oh i've just always used lg since like the flip phones like people just stick with brands yeah i have the same thing i have an aunt that was on um i swear i had this conversation at a wedding it was like i have a s6 what which samsung should i get yeah like that's the question they're asking yeah should i get the s20 s22 like and that's all they're like i don't really want to learn a new thing with the lg or the htc so like which one should i get yeah that's very valid right yeah so yeah buy your lane uh android phone should be the new quote see there will be phones there buy your kid an android phone um anyway yeah like we said it's going to take probably a few years for this to actually get through the courts uh on the verge cast i was listening to their their talk about this and they made a bet whether it be over under 2030 by the time this gets resolved which feels pretty i guess i got some time to work on this video then what gets resolved first this or like all car manufacturers switching to evs because the right 2030 is like when almost everyone's promised they'll stop that's also when it's supposed to be zero emissions from all tech companies right yeah i'd say there's at least legislation in place that i bet you 2030 looks exactly like it does right now for cars for all the things we just talked about for everything we do another podcast episode we talk about the exact same things we make more bets yeah totally totally could happen well we've talked for a while about this so we should take another quick break but before we do we should

1:26:41do trivia

1:26:47this is the third time we're doing this although no one else will know that but us okay first or second question god i'm so thrown off now one more time why not why not fourth time fourth time's a charm when was the first google i o when was the first dub dub that's the question for two points one point for two right answers we'll see we'll see all right we gotta brainstorm some of these dates we'll think about them

1:27:20I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back, and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. I'm not kidding when I say NFL by Abercrombie broke the internet last year, and I think this season's lineup is even cooler. And so does my wife, who keeps stealing all my hoodies. Stay fit for the season and Abercrombie's newest arrivals. shop nfl by abercrombie in the app online and in store

1:27:49all right welcome back we have one more quick story just because this is a long episode but we wanted to get to it and then we'll do trivia again um did you see the leaked email from elon to tesla about how they want to enable full self-driving on all vehicles leaving the factory I saw this headline, but I didn't actually look into what is happening. Sure. So Elon sent out an email that says, Going forward, it is mandatory in North America to install and activate FSD version 12.3.1 and take customers on a short test ride before handing over the car. Almost no one actually realizes how well supervised FSD actually works.

1:28:25I know this will slow down the delivery process, but it is nonetheless a hard requirement. so it seems like from the factory now all of the cars will have it enabled and i guess they want people to all go on test drives to physically see how fsd works rather than just people spending however like fifteen thousand dollars now but whatever the price has been fluctuating over the last 10 years so you take delivery so so what happens is if you if you bought full self-driving you will accept delivery and then you'll get in the car and they give you a quick demo of it and then you leave and you know how to use it if you didn't buy it you will accept delivery they will give you a test ride in your car which has it enabled and then once the test rides over it gets turned off and they go make sure you unlock that i just realized thousand dollars yeah and i guess that's a pretty brute force way of going our conversion rate isn't high enough we need more people to buy fsd yeah yeah i feel like it's along the lines of like we've converted the super fans of Tesla who really want FSD but now we're like we're mainstream enough now that enough people are buying it that aren't really Tesla online Tesla people so let's give them a look at what this is because they're not reading articles or watching Twitter I just feel like the only people this is going to work on is the people that buy the top trim Model S because$15 ,000 on top of what you're paying is just insane Most people going into a car delivery are like, I just want this over with.

1:30:00I can't believe I'm spending this much money. And then for them to be like, you like that? You want to toss us another$15 ,000? Well, I also think you can buy a subscription, right? Yeah, you can do the$200 a month subscription. Is it? That might be what people can do. True, that's a good point. That makes way more sense. That's a good point. That's also so much money. $200 a month? Yeah. Maybe you'll be that blown away. So Enhanced Autopilot is$6 ,000. FSD is$12 ,000. What is enhanced autopilot? Auto lane change and auto park and smart summon. Which is navigate on autopilot. So what's full self-driving?

1:30:39So FSD adds automatic lane changing, positioning on the highway, and overtaking slow cars. I would not feel comfortable doing that. That's all its own conversation in itself. Yeah, I mean, it's not full-on autopilot. autopilot is a whole other debate but i think just having fsd these acronyms are so annoying i know fsd is called full self-driving but it's not full self-driving it's one step above the cruise control that is adaptive speed cruise control so like right now this is funny the cyber truck which no matter what you paid for it doesn't have autopilot or fsd it just has really adaptive cruise control and the the button is sitting there in the app which is called autopilot just cruise control on the adaptive cruise control on the cybertruck and it's not i mean it's fine it's basically you still steer everything but it's keeping the distance with the car in front of you and that's all that's happening it doesn't even keep you in the lane doesn't even keep you in the lane what oh my model 3 does that right my force for free right so when you add autopilot or you add fsd you get to the point where okay it'll hold you in the lane you can switch lanes and it also adds like the summon feature in auto park and stuff like that.

1:31:50But at least now you can like take your hands off the wheel and it will glide you around the highway and that's more relaxing. That's what people I think are generally impressed by and happy to pay for. But then the next highest level of like full on autopilot, which is this can navigate around streets for you and like stop at intersections and go around roundabouts and all this other stuff. That is a whole separate debate and only the highest end like buyers are even willing to pay for something like that totally agreed but yeah i i guess i'm super curious what the actual numbers are like how many people actually do buy autopilot versus apparently not enough sounds like not enough where the trend is going down i would guess for sure because yeah that's i think like it's tesla tesla is the most mainstream electric vehicle at this point to the point where it's battling against gasoline powered cars oh my god i got it backwards sorry autopilot is the first level and fsd is the second level okay i said it backwards yeah fun naming thanks guys it's very funny there's autopilot and then there's also enhanced autopilot right yeah correct no it's just enhanced autopilot yeah i think so which includes navigate on autopilot and that's not the free one oh so here it is autopilot is traffic-aware cruise control and auto-steer in one package.

1:33:11That's basic autopilot? That's the free one. Autopilot, no other adjectives. It keeps you in the lane, and it keeps you between cars. Precisely. Sorry, hands have to be on the wheel? Yeah, because you still have to steer. You still have to steer. It has auto-steer. It just can't change lanes. For example, I have paid for nothing, and my car auto-steers for me. David gets on the tunnel he hits the thing and he hands free for free? this is my question I also want to clarify real quick I said mine has I have to put my hand on the wheel every once in a while but I do have lane keep I keep my hand on the wheel I just don't have to pay any attention I don't have to do this just to recap autopilot it is free it is traffic aware cruise control so it'll match the speed of traffic and it will auto steer to keep you in your marked lane that is free enhanced autopilot will get you on and off uh excuse me it'll take you on on and off ramps on freeways it will do auto lane change which normal autopilot does not have it includes autopark summon and smart summon it's a lot of features as well but it's also six thousand dollars that is enhanced autopilot okay if your car and we can pause there if your car already will hold its lane on the highway and turn on highway lanes are people going to want to spend the six thousand dollars for auto lane change and getting off the exit ramp does it stop at the end of the exit ramp yeah it turns off at the end of the exit ramp wait so say that statement again if your car your car already does what your car does which all it does is stay in the lane on the highway and follow speeds.

1:34:59Great. Cool. $6 ,000 more for enhanced autopilot will get you auto lane change and it will take the exit ramp to the end of the exit ramp. And it will park and it will summon. And it can do auto park or summon. I would argue summon is a party trick that no one uses. Yeah. But auto park, debatably useful. I mean just get good. $6 ,000. At parking. yeah that's kind of a tough sell i gotta say it's not a lot of extra stuff even tougher sell is the fifteen thousand dollar one okay which so what is the fifteen thousand dollars full self-driving which is not full self-driving fsb no full self-driving is what we refer to as a level two autonomous vehicle system not very high which is not very high five levels it's a whole there are actually six levels now oh um which is why it's a whole debate okay yes okay Well, there's five levels, but it starts at level zero.

1:35:55So there's six levels. So zero to five? Yeah, but zero is meat driving. Is nothing. Is nothing. Oh, then there's five levels. Yeah, so there is five levels. Of autonomous driving. Yes, okay, hold on. But they're developers, so they have to start at zero because they're cool. Yeah, that's probably it. I see. Zero is the human. Yeah, so I'm just going to read directly from Tesla's website, just so we get straight from the cat's mouth. Your vehicle will be able to drive itself almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention and will continuously improve. In addition to the functionality and features of Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot, FSD capability includes auto steer on streets.

1:36:35There is no description of what that means. I was going to say, what does that mean? I would assume that means you get the auto steer feature from Autopilot, but in non-free way. Oh. But again, it was... Okay, good to know. Then, traffic and stop sign control, colon, identifies stop signs and traffic lights and automatically slows your vehicle to a stop on approach with your active supervision. The last one doesn't? It doesn't. Because basically everything before it is only... The biggest jump here we're going is to regular... Highway to street. Getting off highways. Got it. So, and then there's just a big long paragraph about full self-driving requires active driver supervision and does not make the vehicle autonomous, which is hilarious.

1:37:18That's so funny. They're just like, it's basically autonomous. Disclaimer, it's not autonomous. All caps. Which full self-driving, small text, it's not autonomous driving. Which also, it can still be impressive that they're this close to doing that while still also just not being the thing that they say is. It's very confusing. I do want to dump on this so bad, but also what else could you call it? You know? What else could you call it? Level two. I mean, full self-driving. pretty much means it fully does everything. It's just branding. It could be enhanced assisted driving. Like, would a regular person get that?

1:37:54If you get, like, lane assist, but then this one is lane assist plus. Or pro or ultra, as Ellis said. Or almost autonomous driving. Nearly autonomous. Theoretically, you don't have to do any input. The car will drive you from point A to point B. It needs it, though. Yeah, it can't do it without you there, ready to take over at a moment's notice. It can't say that they can do it. Right. Yeah. Yeah, like I did my demo of it where it took me, you know, 15 minute drive to get here and I did not at any point give the car input. Actually, that's a lie. Two or three times I interrupted it. But theoretically, if it works correctly, you don't have to give it any input, theoretically.

1:38:30And it doesn't need you to take over at any point. Right. It would be full. Would be full self-driving. The word full is carrying a lot of weight here. Oh, interesting. Full. See, full. It means it fully does everything that I would normally do. So this is just self-driving. It's also worth noting that level five is called full automation. So it is like a little. Do you know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of. This is such a weird analogy. But I was showing you that commercial for a diaper that says. It's like. Andrew becomes the dad. I know. But it's guaranteed to prevent up to 100 % of blowouts.

1:39:08the full self-driving could up to 100 % of your full drive. It's the same language. It's full blowout protection, which is up to 100%. Which is the same as all of the cleaning materials that say kills up to 99 % of bacteria. Because they can't say it kills everything in case it misses one. Or internet speeds up to 900. I just got my test back, Mom. I got up to an A+. I wish I knew that when I was in there. Oh my god. My mom would have kicked me out of the house. It was like up to an A+. Yeah, I guess that's, yeah, it's kind of a tough sell. But if you're gonna, if you're gonna get people to buy it, I guess theoretically that's the best way to buy it is to be like, this is the mandatory acceptance process of here's your car.

1:39:54Yeah. Get in. We're going for a ride. Yeah. All right. Insane. It's a lot. It's crazy. It's$15 ,000. I do think, though, like being able to get a quick test of it sounds pretty awesome. Or like if you actually were thinking of it, knowing that you can get the test before committing to the$15 ,000. Yeah, or the$200. Ooh, maybe that lowers the number of people who commit before accepting delivery. Oh, shoot. That's kind of funny. What if it could backfire? That would be funny if it backfired. Yeah. That's not even what I was talking about. I was just. Because you're saying like, okay, you want people to commit and how fast can you get them to commit?

1:40:28Right now, there is no demo. so if you don't buy it the only way to try it is if you commit to it for at least a month i guess so if you don't commit you will get a demo anyway i think that means less people will commit initially yeah true if they know they're going to get a demo the old way they used to do it is you're buying your car it's five thousand dollars you should commit right now because it's going to go up in price and they made true on that statement it has gone up in price it has yeah by a lot well fun fun fun fun fun and I'm sure everyone will enjoy that conversation and no one will think about anything we said there I definitely said FSD or autopilot wrong many times at some point heaven forbid FSD DOJ AI AI TRIVIA WWDC WDC I had the what that was a perfect segue and everyone missed it did you say trivia what did you say I spelled trivia TRIVIA for all the babies out there I'm sorry that's pretty good I know you won't understand okay quick update on the score Marquez with 4 Andrew with 1 2 carry the 3 3 nice David with 2 first question uploaded June 16th 2009 this 4.4 billion view masterpiece is the oldest video on YouTube's all time top 30 list what video is it i'm i'm actually pretty i i just want you to know what i thought in my head for a second there i went oh my god coney 2012 and then i was like wait no that's 2012 yes i was wait is that no i think it was 2011 when it was definitely 2012 when it was oh when it came out wasn't it like a 2011 campaign for 2012 i don't know what it was it's still wrong it's still just not actually putting anything down um don't write coney 2012 uh that is not on the top 30 yeah that didn't have a long tail no i kind of feel confident about this one all right what do we got i just wrote this anyways all right oh good call i know so i wrote gangnam style which i know is wrong but i it was the first to hit a billion so i thought it maybe it tracked for a while and i think it also came out in like 2012 or 2011.

1:42:53Yeah. But I know it came out while I was in high school and technically I was in high school in 2009 and in 2011. So unfortunately, you were in high school in 2009. Yeah, I was in ninth grade. Oh, okay. That makes sense. I wasn't. I was done. I was in college. That's correct. Thanks for making it feel old yet. I know I'm wrong, but I wrote me at the zoo just in case it was that. and I would feel dumb. Well, they said it's not, right? I wrote Baby by Justin Bieber. That is a really good guess, but unfortunately, the correct answer... I guess that did come out in 2009, right? Baby? Yeah. It was very quickly the most disliked video in YouTube history.

1:43:38I do remember. Really? Why? It's Justin Bieber in 2009. People disliked him in 2009? Did you reply? That was like the end of his super popular-ass point. He was too mainstream at that point. Oh, like people were annoyed by how mainstream he was. It was just like a meme. Damn, what is it? The answer is Axel F by Crazy Frog. Crazy Frog? No way! That has 4.4. 4.4 billy. That got uploaded. No, it's Crazy Frog by Axel F. No. Yes. No way. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. no crazy frog is the artist and axel f because it's a cover of axel f which is the theme song of beverly hills cop wait really boy oh wow crazy frog had an album though okay crazy frog had a lot of that's crazy because crazy frog really peaked i felt like when i was in middle school i thought crazy frog was like super popular pre-youtube it was i remember like those two kids dancing uh like in their basement to crazy frog and making like funny faces i'm pretty sure is e-bombs.

1:44:44Frog, frog, frog, frog, frog. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. We love Crazy Frog. Culture used to be weird, bro. Culture was weird. I like how when I search Crazy Frog, the lyrics come up on Google. Ring, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Bam, bam. It says bem, bam. Oh, and then da-da's later. If you've made it this far in the episode, I am so sorry. Da-da. We're on the back half of it. That's a good Crazy Frog. If you get this far in the episode, please comment your favorite Crazy Frog lyrics. I would love to see that in the comments.

1:45:21Okay. I'm going to pin that comment. Read this. Duran drama. Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-bee. That was the beginning. No, that's in the middle. That's me scatting in the beginning. Oh, no. Yeah. No, that's ba-a-romba-ba-bom-ba-roomba. Wow. We used to have class. YouTube auto-captioned that as well, just so you know. This is my Roman Empire. It is. I just think about Crazy Frog all the time. You're not alone. Yeah. Okay, so... Okay, question number two, finally. Wow. When was the first Google I.O.? When was the first DubDub? We're trying out a new system for these year ones because they're fun. Okay. What we're going to do is if you're within five years, or excuse me, if you're five years from the date so a 10 year span you get one point if you're three years on either side so six year span you get two points and if you're one year on either side so a three year span what is that three points there's too many and if there's nothing for me nail it no i blacked it that's kind of a kind of a gap in the i like the one year on either side that's what pod quiz does for yearly things.

1:46:33And giving someone five points just felt too much. That's a lot. It is too much. I'm trying to strategically think around my windows here. We have a five-year window and a what? You can potentially get up to three points. How? By getting a year. Okay.

1:46:57This seems like a good point to point out that the Crazy Frog Twitter account tweets in the character, which is pretty funny. That's amazing. I'm changing it. Okay. Alright, flip him and read. What do you got? For Google I.O., I put 2010. 2010 gives you two points. So you're close, but not completely correct. For WWDC, I put 2008. You put 2008. That gives you... Oof. That gives you... Yeah, that's just wrong. You get nothing. Sorry. I'm sorry, David. How wrong? Very wrong. Raw, wrong? I can't give you a more accurate answer until I hear the rest of them. Okay. All right. I also put 2010 for IO.

1:47:45For IO. Okay, so you get two points. And I want a higher day for WWDC 2014. No way. Very wrong, very wrong. I wasn't sure if it was called something different before. It was. It was. Yeah. I thought that was a true... Wait, but it's the same event, so I figured... No, different. But it wasn't called WDV. I was just going off of the first developer conference. The first developer conference was also way before that, so you got that wrong either way. Yeah, no one's wrong either. Yeah. Marquez, what do you have? I'm wrong. I got 2009 for DubDub. Oh, yeah. And 2006 for IO. Also two points for IO. Well, now we have to guess where it is.

1:48:24Aw. And DubDub, you just got completely wrong. Yes. No one got points for DubDub. I want the buzzer to be in the crazy frog cadence now. Have we been quoting crazy dogs all the time? Always have been. So the answer, the first DubDub Worldwide Developers Conference was May 7th to May 11th of 1990. Whoa. DubDub? The first DubDub? The first DubDub. Before that, in 87, it was called the Apple's Developer Conference, or DevCon. and then in 86 it was Apple World Conference. Before that was Apple II Forever and before that Apple Independent Software Developers Conference which was a trivia question I believe.

1:49:07Can I just note how they switched to removing the name Apple altogether to just say we are the developer conference. We are the world developer conference. Worldwide developer conference. It's not even Apple Worldwide Developer Conference. It's just we are the developer conference. That's why they're getting sued. Mr. Worldwide. And that's six years away from their, or six years after their developer conference literally being called Apple II Forever. Apple II Forever. The sequel. I wish. That's epic. I don't think we have enough time for the Safari. Oh, IO? Oh, it's 2008. Okay. I was two years away.

1:49:50Me too. Did you also write 2010? 2006. He was doing the other way. I don't think we have time for the Safari question. Safari the browser? Yeah. Yeah, we do. You want to do it? Third question. We're already two hours in. Let's go. Send it. Let's go. Heck yeah, boys. All right. Apple released Safari with OSX 10.3 Panther. But before that, what third-party browser was included on all Macs starting in 1998 and ending in 2003? Third-party browser? Third-party browser included in Macintosh starting in 1998. It was not included before that and ending in 2003 with the introduction of Safari. I'm bad at these history ones.

1:50:35I don't know.

1:50:42Are you wearing an IO shirt? Yes. It's cool. I like it. Thanks. Do you want it? Maybe a little bit. I don't think before we do the answer real quick when we got that shirt I was so excited for it that first day I wore it coming back I spilled spaghetti sauce on it and got dirty and I can I just had to get rid of it it is anyway I like it are those sparkle emojis yes they are AI hey not yet give it five years okay I wow we all wrote Netscape we're all wrong is it is it the worldwide is it the no it's not the worldwide web browser that tim berners lee made it is and are you ready for this internet explorer i almost wrote that that's crazy i wrote that last and then crossed it out because i'm an idiot i believe uh they shipped with netscape before internet explorer that's hurts even more another fun um antitrust quote

1:51:47go on go off is that there's a quote from Microsoft where they say we need to take the oxygen out of Netscape's lungs Jesus that's like a mob threat Microsoft said that dude and that's really funny because those are the 90s Microsoft executives are nerds no they were a bunch of like yeah like picture Bill Gates with a huge glass is like take the air yeah exactly that's what I'm saying take it out of their lungs that scares me more than an actual mob boss to be honest yeah well hey this has been quite an adventure of a waveform episode this is what happens when we come back to a regular scheduled program and we just go off the rails and maybe we should bring it back on the rails next week but hey it's fun while we're at it so root for more lawsuits I guess thanks for watching thanks for listening thanks for subscribing and I can't wait to see your crazy frog quotes in the comment section below please thanks and catch you guys in the next one peace bye bye

1:52:55Waveform is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Robin we're partnered with the Vox Media Podcast Network and our intro outro music was The Crazy Frog or Vein Silk

1:53:18I think we're good. Galaxy AI, Dub Dub, IO, FSD. We've got all kinds of acronyms. Actually, every single story has an acronym. Isn't that crazy? What's the threads one? AI, Dub Dub, IO, FSD, and the Fediverse. You could have wrote DOJ. DOJ. DOJ. Or actually US. US. DOJ versus Apple. W3C. Yeah, true. Well, that's... What? For the Threads one. Yeah, for the Threads one. Oh. A little bit. And Doug. Lemu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now, we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music, Lemu. Save yourself money today. Increase your wealth.

1:54:07Customize and save. We say. That may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual.com. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Savings vary. Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.