Is Flighty a Top 5 App of All Time?

9:30Andrew Edwards:So it really kind of just feels like Apple is following what Google is doing with Gemini, where Gemini is embedded inside of Android, and it's just kind of part of the OS. I think Apple is moving in that direction.

9:42David Imel:Clippy.

9:43Andrew Edwards:Clippy.

9:43David Imel:Microsoft had it, right, years ago.

9:46Marques Brownlee:Ahead of its time. Yeah. We always say Google Glass ahead of its time, Clippy ahead of its time.

9:50David Imel:I like how they kill Clippy so hard. We're saying Microsoft's ahead of his time and this Siri isn't even out yet. And we're still giving it more credit. Yeah. Bring back Clippy. That's all you needed to do.

9:59Andrew Edwards:Some people were saying there were rumors that we were going to get a beta drop that included Siri like this week. I would personally prefer if they just waited till June and it was one big like release announcement because it'd be more exciting.

10:12David Imel:I think the thing I heard was like updated Gemini queries inside of like Apple intelligence, but that the new Siri would be an iOS 27 because like they have to drop it at dub dub. Apple needs an event for everything except for AirPods Max 2. And then they that's where they're going to drop it, even though it probably should have been dropped at last dub dub, even though it probably should have been dropped at the 24. Well, it was dropped at that one and then not actually dropped. Well, announced announced and not dropped at the iPhone. They did drop it. you know they dropped the they dropped the ball yeah so i mean ios 27 is going to come out

10:46Marques Brownlee:officially with the iphone 27 so that'd be like a september-ish type of time frame so if they announce what they're going to do with it in summer iphone 18 yeah sorry iphone 18 yeah ios 27 yeah 2027 2027 september correct yeah that could possibly be the big drop of like all the new features the new siri everything comes out at once and the new phone happens to have a couple We've seen rumors of new features with the iPhones.

11:11David Imel:But we should get some developer stuff in July, right? Yeah. When 27 beta comes out? In early beta.

11:16Andrew Edwards:Well, the beta comes out on the day of DubDub. Like, it drops that day.

11:20David Imel:Oh, yeah, yeah.

11:21Andrew Edwards:Developer beta.

11:22David Imel:Developer beta. But, like, people usually aren't allowed to make videos and stuff until...

11:26Marques Brownlee:Fun fact. You're not technically... Okay. How in the weeds should I get? I also... Let's get weedy right now. Well, okay. You are not allowed when you sign the developer agreement to make videos about the developer beta.

11:41Andrew Edwards:Yeah.

11:41Marques Brownlee:Most people don't read that and don't care.

11:44Andrew Edwards:Yeah.

11:45Marques Brownlee:But we are in a unique position where we have some working relationship with Apple. And so we try to follow the actual rules. And so when the developer beta comes out and everyone makes videos about the developer beta that they're technically not allowed to, but they do it anyway. Yeah. I wait because I agreed to the developer agreement. and then a month later when the public beta comes out, I make a video on that using my experience from a developer beta on the public beta.

12:09David Imel:The benefit of Waveform is we can just report on everybody else's videos and talk about it however we want before that.

12:16Marques Brownlee:Look at this. Exactly.

12:17Andrew Edwards:That's that. Should we do the other Apple thing and just get it out of the way? Or what do you think?

12:21David Imel:Ads in Apple Maps.

12:22Andrew Edwards:Yeah, okay. Apple's going to allow businesses to buy ads in Apple Maps. And I can already hear people being like, wow, Apple Maps is sucky. which I still don't like it, to be clear. I still like Google Maps a lot more. Google Maps, you probably don't know this, but it's had ads for an extremely long period of time. A Google product? With ads? It's their main money maker. That's crazy. Yeah. No, I mean, if you go on Google Maps right now, you'll just see Dunkin' Donuts around you without trying to search for it.

12:52David Imel:It's so weird. Oh, is that in, maybe that's in Waze. I think Waze when you're just like driving and it's just like, hey, there's a Wendy's right there. It's like, okay, cool. I don't care.

13:04Marques Brownlee:It's like your friend pointing out the window, like, hey, there's a Wendy's right there.

13:08Andrew Edwards:So it's going to allow people that want to sell ads to have suggested places at the top of search results. And this is going to be based on places that are trending and based on your recent searches. And it will not be associated with your Apple account because all of the data is stored on device. They're still trying to be hardcore about security about that. And they also say that the places that you go to are not shared with advertisers. Now, that's also what ChatGPT said when they said that they were going to do ads.

13:36Marques Brownlee:But we'll have to see if that's true. It's funny about that is Maps is like a very personal app. It's like where you're going in your location all the time. And I do feel like, and this is maybe this is a hot take, but everyone loves to talk about I would rather have privacy than have personalized ads. But when you're in your Maps app, wouldn't you rather have personalized ads than like I never drink coffee? why am I still getting Starbucks ads everywhere I go? I would rather have the personalized ad for the thing that I would actually maybe go to than constantly get things that are not associated with me at all.

14:09Marques Brownlee:Yeah, I feel like I would actually appreciate that because I might actually go to the Jollibee and I would never go to the Starbucks that I might get an ad for from Apple.

14:16David Imel:You go to Starbucks a lot for a non-coffee drinker? Yeah, okay, maybe that's a bad example. But I just want to say, I've never seen someone go to Starbucks as often and never order coffee. I think people, I just get the breakfast. You're big on the pumpkin bread.

14:29Andrew Edwards:The bread is...

14:31Marques Brownlee:Can I warm it up for you? Just in case you didn't know. Yeah.

14:33Andrew Edwards:Yes, you can. I think best item at Starbucks is the thing that has the spinach and the feta wrap, the

14:39Marques Brownlee:spinach feta wrap. It's a solid breakfast. Yeah, they got a couple breakfast sandwiches. Anyway, my point is Google's going to give me ads based on the way too much that it knows about me. And Apple's going to give me ads based on the knowing nothing about me. And I suspect I'll be more annoyed by the ones that are for the thing that I've never considered going to.

14:58Andrew Edwards:That's kind of the big question that's been asked for the last few years because when Apple dropped the ask app not to track feature and then Meta was like, wouldn't you rather that you had more integrated? And it's like, it's kind of, I don't know. I know a lot of people who buy a lot of things from Instagram ads. So I've never bought anything from an Instagram ad because I will not let them win. But I know that it can be quite effective for a lot of people. It reminds me of that story of the woman who didn't know she was pregnant but Amazon did. because it was target target target and i start recommending things for it was targeted her i

15:32David Imel:guess it was also a minor so i'll be interested in how this pops up is it popping up while you're searching for places is that taking over the top of it is it just suggestions when you first open apple maps is like you think about places like yelp that were a place thing and yelp is just uh destroyed ever since they did all the like you can pay to get like placed up higher and better reviews or whatever no one cares about yelp anymore yelp has also famously like kind of

16:01Andrew Edwards:exploited people businesses and called them and be like we're gonna take you off of our recommendations if you don't pay us that's yeah like there are stories about this it's crazy so yeah well we'll see i mean it's i don't even know how many people actually use apple maps anymore but yeah or not anymore but ever did as long as it's clearly marked as an ad so i can

16:20Marques Brownlee:very quickly skip it then i'm happy yeah so that's the hard part though is like what if the ad does look really scrumptious then that's a successful i know but how many like like

16:32David Imel:what you said if you see it say ad i'm usually like hardwired to skip but then there's the times where it's like that does sound really good but is this actually good or is this just an ad then

16:41Marques Brownlee:you got to do the second layer of research of like let me click it let me look at the review i'm hungry i'm just trying to eat i know it's usually trying to research that's why i don't like that's why nobody wants ads and maps like you just want to find the thing go to the thing but the ad's going to pop up and be like, hey, what about you want to go to this other place? No, I actually opened this app just to go somewhere else. Thank you very much. It is frustrating.

17:00Andrew Edwards:Even in Google Maps, it'll be like, best food near me, and it'll give me like a 4.5 because that restaurant paid for it or whatever. It's like suggested sponsored result. It's like, ugh. Yeah, Apple is in this weird place where it's like slowly trying to transition towards other revenue sources because they're scared of the iPhone making less money over time and all of these things happening and you know, they can't retain as many people as they want on their other services. This will come up again later in this podcast. Oh, it will. Yeah, it will. It will. Foreshadowing. We'll see how that happens.

17:32David Imel:Marquez, what are you more excited about? The Samsung A-Series or Flighty? Is that a question? Is that a real question? I certainly like this lips when we heard Flighty. Before we started recording, I was like,

17:46Marques Brownlee:I think Flighty is like top five app of all time. Insane take. And it's not like a multi-platform. It's not like a very broad thing that everyone can use. Not everybody flies enough to give any hoots about Flighty. But if you do fly a lot, Flighty is goaded and everybody who flies a lot knows that. So it's weirdly and it's tucked away in the corner of like, hey, do you fly a lot? No question about it. This app is unbelievably useful. That will be a Flighty ad by Monday. It's just fact. Anyway, they know they just announced another thing. So kind of like I'm describing it as like ways for airports.

18:20Marques Brownlee:They're calling it airport intelligence. and essentially what it does is it allows you a broader view of like what's going on with airports in general so flighty for those who don't know is like a flight tracker app you put in your flight information it tells you everything you need to know about your flight as you're about to fly while you're flying as soon as you land it tells you where your baggage is going to be if it's delayed it tells you why it's delayed before the airline usually does all this stuff it's super useful so airport intelligence is like let's say hypothetically there's some something going on with airports in your area.

18:52Marques Brownlee:Allegedly. Yeah, allegedly. This could happen, maybe. The timing for this release is perfect. It's really good timing. So something weird is going on at an airport in your area, and it's affecting kind of all flights, and you're flying tomorrow, and you just kind of want to get an idea of like, maybe I should go to security check-in like two or three hours early, for example. Just a hypothetical. You would be able to look at the airports in your area and look at their status in this, which is sort of aggregating a bunch of data, I assume from flighty users and from the FAA and everything, contributing to one spot kind of like Waze.

19:25Marques Brownlee:And you can get an idea of if the airport in question is affected or not and make your decision accordingly. So again, as someone who flies a lot, another useful feature, I will be happily using this. It is kind of slow right now, I assume because it just launched, but it is full of information about every airport.

19:41Andrew Edwards:It's crazy that they launched this before the FAA did, but. I think that's the least surprising thing. I mean, yeah, true. Yeah, there was an interview with the United CEO like a year ago, and they asked him, what is one thing that you wish that you did to update your tech stack earlier? And he said, I wish we bought Flighty. Wow. Like he specifically said that. He was like, they're doing insanely good things, and I think they've made them offers, and they said no.

20:06Marques Brownlee:Yeah, every time I fly, my iPhone has the live activity for the United app and for Flighty, and I immediately dismiss the United one because I just used the Flighty one. You should just not allow it to send you notifications. Yeah. Well, I also click on it for my boarding pass. That's the one thing I have the United app for, though, is the boarding pass. Everything else I just get from Flighty.

20:24David Imel:Wait, did they even test this? United boarding pass. If you have multiple people on the reservation and you are not the first one, if you have like your boarding pass up and ready and then lock your phone waiting in line and then come up, it resets back to the first one. I've scanned Adam in before on business trips and then we have to figure out which one I did wrong. Yeah. Terrible, United.

20:45Marques Brownlee:you should be able to pin your boarding pass yeah you should be able to have your boarding pass in flighty you should be able to what? be able to have your boarding pass in flighty oh yeah why can't we do that? there's probably a reason why we can't do that because they want you to use their app yeah that's probably why anyway so that's that the other thing that you mentioned Andrew is Samsung dropping the new A series of phones I only put this in here because I thought it was just a note and interesting that they all have the same battery size these aren't notes so it's the Samsung A57 and A37 The A37 will be$449.

21:17Marques Brownlee:The A57 will be$549. So these are like your mid-range fighters. We've seen a lot of phones coming out at this price points. And they look just like the rest of the Samsung S series phones, like S26s. They look like they have triple cameras, but one of them is a macro camera. You know, they make the appropriate cuts to reach these price points. But the one thing they did is they both have 5 ,000 milliamp hour batteries, which is the same size as the S26 Ultra. So the$1 ,200 phone has a 5 ,000 milliamp hour battery. And the$450 phone also has a 5 ,000 mAh battery.

21:49David Imel:It's one of those things where you're really pumped for the cheap phone and really bummed for the expensive phone. Pretty much. It's hard to complain about this because I'm so happy that the mid-range phones are getting that. But you've got to take that as a kick in the teeth if you bought the 26 Ultra.

22:03Marques Brownlee:Yeah, you can't. I said it in my review, so I don't have to harp on it again, but that is maybe the least Ultra Ultra phone right now is the S26 Ultra. Back to the S20 day ago. great phone i told i i told it like it is in the review but yeah as far as the word ultra concerned adam did you purchase another phone bs26 ultra he had it last what color was it it was a different color that i've seen black yeah the black one yeah i had the like purple

22:29Andrew Edwards:how long do you plan to stay on that till the iphone allegedly folds we'll see interesting that's i don't think that's gonna happen i think you're gonna change earlier

22:39David Imel:definitely possibly i thought you were gonna say till my next shipment comes in of whatever i

22:43Andrew Edwards:ordered yesterday yeah well you could buy that or you could buy a macbook neo so choose wisely for 1200 bucks no but the the the cheap one oh oh yeah the cheap yeah that's crazy yeah you can

22:58Marques Brownlee:buy that or a neo that's wild speaking of the macbook neo you want to talk about this windows 11 problem yeah we can do this before break so uh recent video on the channel will be live by the time you see this, which is just talking about the Windows laptop problem. This was inspired by the two Mac laptops that I've tested most recently, the MacBook Neo, their$599 -$499 mid-range fighter, and the M5 Max MacBook Pro, which I've also tested. I was running all my benchmarks on it. It had like 18 ,000 megabyte per second SSD read and write speeds, which is crazy. it has benchmarked multi-core higher than any other mac ever including the mac pro and m3 ultra as gpu scores matching m3 ultra which is insane this is a max chip in a laptop so i'm actually thinking like this is now a laptop that could actually replace my mac pro and be my desktop i might be that guy at some point but having all these thoughts also made me think well what's going on in windows land like what is actually the equivalent of you know the highest end laptop you could get and could it be the desktop that I choose to use?

24:05Marques Brownlee:How good are those laptops? And so that had me digging into like, okay, what's going on with XPS? What's going on with Razer Blades? What's going on also with the Neo competitors? I bought a$550 Acer laptop. We tested that. And essentially a conclusion I came to was Apple's Apple Silicon Advantage and their vertical integration is a huge advantage at the high end for efficiency and performance. And it turns out to also be a huge advantage at the low end for cost. Yeah. And the cherry on top is that Apple doesn't actually really need to make a ton of money on NEOs on the hardware margin. The services.

24:39Marques Brownlee:Because it's basically, as I said in the video, like a Trojan horse for new Apple customers, which then will spend way more on software, on services, on Apple Care, on Apple TV, on Apple Creative Studio, all these other things. so they don't have to make the$100 on the hardware margin but they will make a ton of money over time on just getting a new person to be a Mac user. This is the entire Chromebook play. It was get people on Google services

25:06Andrew Edwards:when they're five years old

25:07Marques Brownlee:so they will use services for the rest of their life. Yeah.

25:10Andrew Edwards:Yeah.

25:11Marques Brownlee:So it was interesting to sort of see that in real time and just like put the machines next to each other and be like, oh yeah, they can make just a straight up better laptop for the same price and that's going to get people to become first time Mac people.

25:24Andrew Edwards:I mean, a Windows computer has parts from a ton of different companies and every single one of those companies has to make margin. That's literally the main problem.

25:33David Imel:It's a disadvantage off the riff. Insane disadvantage. Just having to do that. It's similar with Android phones. It's similar with tablets. It's just like when Apple has the full integration through, there's a benefit there. Even just like making software on mobile, right? Like we see all the time, if you're making iOS software, you don't have to do it that hard. But if you're making Android software, it has to fit like thousands of thousands of tens of thousands of different like form factors and phones and resolutions.

26:04Andrew Edwards:That's why Google has been so hardcore about just trying to make Android so flexible with screen sizes and stuff.

26:09Marques Brownlee:And that's part of the advantage, right, is there is a choice. Like in Android land, if I really, really, really care about having 8K video, well, there is no iPhone that can do that. So if I just want to choose a phone that can shoot 8K video, you can find that in Android land. You can find all sorts of other different things you might care about, like a folding screen or whatever in Android land. But the couple of phones that Apple makes are like locked in, super tightly integrated. And you might not be super used to the way they do things, but they do it the same way every single time. So you kind of just get used to that when you're in that ecosystem.

26:41Marques Brownlee:And yeah, that's kind of the same thing with Windows. Now, in this sort of latest generation, this is the nuance of it, is yes, you depend on all these different companies who make the parts to your computer to all make their margin but also make a good piece. You have to have, to make a great Windows laptop, several different companies all executing and firing on cylinders at the same time for your one computer to be good. So if you're Dell and you make the XPS like I showed, you're also depending on Intel to be making a good chip at that time, which they are. And you're Dell, you have to make a good computer with a good screen and a good keyboard and all that stuff, which they are.

27:18Marques Brownlee:And you need Windows to be good.

27:23David Imel:I'm fine with Windows. I like Windows.

27:25Marques Brownlee:So Windows 11 is kind of a weird place because not everybody is loving Windows 11. I do not I haven't used Windows since Windows 10 and I was jumping into Windows 11 again and I set up this XPS it took me 45 minutes to set it up because there were mandatory downloading updates and stuff once I got through the updates it was like sign into this sign into that download Microsoft 365 do you want to use Copilot? do you want Recall on? do you want all these other things? and I was like no, no, no, no, no all this stuff it was asking me and then I finally got into my clean install of Windows and then I got a pop-up from McAfee to be installed and this is the other thing

27:57Andrew Edwards:The only other way that these manufacturers that make the laptops can make the laptops cheap enough to even be competitive at all is that they have to put a bunch of bloatware on it. They have to get more. Yeah. I mean, we see this on Android phones, too, like the Android phones that come with Facebook installed and come with Instagram installed. They don't do that out of the kindness of their heart. They do that because Meta pays them to do that. So, yeah, it's just it's not a good situation for anybody else. and Microsoft really they tried to do the vertical integration with the Surface but I just there's such a b2b company that it's such an afterthought for them we saw this with the Pixel for a very long time then the Nexus program the Pixel now Tensor Google didn't really care about the Pixel and they still don't really get they're trying to care more and the Pixels are really good now they're really really good now but it still doesn't have quite the level of vertical integration

28:46Marques Brownlee:that they would like. And even if they achieved it, they're in this weird spot where they make Android for everyone else. Yeah. So they're competing against all of that. Yeah. While also providing them with the OS. So this happens in Google land because they make the Pixel and Tensor and they're all vertically integrated and they'll give the Pixel exclusive Android features and now they're competing against every other Android phone. Same thing happened with Windows and Microsoft and Surface and making this beautifully, ideally very vertically integrated thing. Now you're competing against all the other OEMs trying to make good Windows machines.

29:19Marques Brownlee:And maybe that's like a lead by example type thing, but it just it never went well.

29:23Andrew Edwards:Yeah. And the funny thing about the Google Android features thing is that they also want to make Android a popular OS to compete with iOS. And so they have to eventually give a lot of these features to the broader Android ecosystem. And that's why Google does this awkward thing where they have pixel exclusive features for like two months. and then it goes to every other Android phone because they need other people to want to use Android in general. And it's also why they had that weird bromance with Samsung for such a long time. Yeah. Ellis, you look like you really want to say something. I know.

29:52Andrew Edwards:I've just been fighting a Windows PC all week. And like, to be honest, it's all tinfoil hat stuff. Like, because it's a Windows PC that on paper has a really good graphics card and a really good, or, you know, good enough graphics card and a good enough processor. But like, and we didn't build this PC And it sort of is the things that, you know, I think you've been talking about, Marquez. Like, it's for a video we're working on that involves this, like, peripheral device that connects via USB 3.0. And it keeps crashing all the time. And I couldn't figure out why it kept crashing. And my working theory right now, and I haven't, like, tested this, so again, it's tinfoil hat, is that the USB 3.0 ports on this computer are just not USB 3.0 ports.

30:35Andrew Edwards:That's my best guess. And the USB 3.2 ports are USB 3.0 ports. And it's like, there's no way the company who built this PC, you know, they didn't build the ports. They definitely got the USB IO box like from. The motherboard? Yeah, from someone else. But it's like that, it's sort of what you're talking about. It's like you need all, or like for some reason, not a single Bluetooth keyboard will connect to this PC. Not one. There's one Logitech keyboard in the whole office that will connect for 30 seconds and then immediately disconnect. And the rest of it, and it's not like I haven't tried all 100 Bluetooth keyboards that are in the office.

31:13Andrew Edwards:Who could those be? Where could those come from? Yeah, and so I just, this is all ringing very true.

31:18David Imel:It also is shaped like a shoe.

31:19Andrew Edwards:Well, I was trying not to say that because I don't know if any of these are the problems. I don't want them out.

31:24David Imel:There's a chance, like that computer doesn't get used very often. There might be some driver updates that are in there that we haven't like dug that deep into or like it was dormant for a while. So totally. Some are probably that, But some are also like it should be easy to figure out what those problems are.

31:38Andrew Edwards:I don't want to I don't want to accuse anyone of counterfeit USB ports, but I genuinely cannot. I'm at the point now where I'm like, why? Why does the USB 3.0 cable not get USB 3.0 speeds until it's in the 3.2 port? Why does the 3.0 port not give 3.0 speeds? Yeah. Yeah. What? Yeah. Sorry, I was looking into the eyes of your head for a second. Yeah, I should probably address this. This is Franklin, the mascot of the Philadelphia 76ers. Thank you to fan Michael for the sick hat. I'm going to be wearing this the whole episode. Why do they have a cat as the mascot?

32:12David Imel:It's a dog.

32:13Andrew Edwards:That's a cat. And his name is Franklin.

32:14David Imel:That is a cat? A thousand percent. Isn't Franklin a turtle?

32:16Andrew Edwards:Franklin has whiskers. Franklin is Benjamin Franklin, the founding father. That's half of the things in Philadelphia. He was a dog? Benjamin Franklin was, in fact, a dog.

32:26David Imel:What number president was he?

32:27Andrew Edwards:He was president number six, and when he signed the Declaration of Independence, it was a paw print. He got that dog in him. Caprint.

32:35David Imel:To bring it back, I think the best way... Still a pop print. I didn't notice that. I feel like the best way, if you really want an example of the difference between the vertical integration in Apple and the vertical integration in Android Windows, go on our Apple and go on our Android and watch everyone in Apple is just generally mad at the same thing where everyone in Android is mad at each other because even though they're all using Android, they're all fans of different companies of phones and they all hate each other it is just the wildest infighting ever and like now imagine all of those different people need to work together and build something yeah and it's just and and to be fair like i'm a full android and windows user at home

33:20Andrew Edwards:by the way i only use apple stuff yeah i like android better than ios by far and there's a great piece by david pierce he uh he tried to use android for like the last four months and he used a bunch of different phones and he really liked the Fairphone 6, but it doesn't work on Verizon, so he couldn't do it. But he went back to iOS because his conclusion was effectively phones are app machines and iOS has better apps. And he relies on too many iOS apps to go back to Android, which sucks because Android is a way better OS. Well, I want to play devil's advocate because as someone who's like fully Apple, you know, ecosystemed up, there are a lot of these like vertically integrated things in the Apple world that are like not supported to the degree they should be.

34:04Andrew Edwards:Like Freeform has like six updates that they just need to add. Like there's just no excuse why Freeform doesn't have these things, but I just don't think they care enough about Freeform to do it. Or like, why does the Apple Mail app still kind of blow?

34:24David Imel:You know what I mean? It's email. When you're just the default and you get to be the default thing for what right 80 market share of the us like why change why update it yeah but like why

34:34Andrew Edwards:is it so hard to rotate something on the desktop version of freeform and why is it so hard to select multiple objects on the mobile version of freeform i would like to see the user base for

34:44David Imel:freeform it's me yeah i know that's your average apple there's definitely some people who hate Apple screenshotting you in the cat hat right now. Like average Apple use. There's also, there's also,

35:00Marques Brownlee:it's kind of like either that or the massive graveyard of stuff that Google tries and then just kills a year later. So it's like, would I rather have the kind of weak updates, but at least it works the same way every time on one side of the fence or like Google launching an app and me going, I don't think I want to switch to this because I don't trust them to even keep this alive for a year. Rip inbox, bro. Yeah. So it, yeah. There's choice on one side, but there's the upside and downside of that choice.

35:27Andrew Edwards:Also, there's at least six Freeform users because there are several things that I force my friends to do on Freeform with me. So they're monthly. Plan vacations. Freeform is excellent for that.

35:37David Imel:This whole conversation is also negating people who have like very specific needs that software wise or like needs to be on a Windows machine, needs to be on Android. Yeah. Like we're talking outside of that because clearly that we have one option.

35:50Andrew Edwards:Almost every business distributes Windows computers.

35:53Marques Brownlee:I think that's a big part of the equation for like why they are where they are, especially because you talk about like David having like he'd come from an iPhone, so he's already plugged in and use a lot of iPhone only apps. There's a lot of people who play a certain game that you can't play on Mac or there are people who use certain softwares for their business that are just only Windows XP like that. Oh, yeah. That's a real thing where, OK, now Windows XP has a massive market share because that's still stable and that's the thing that we use. Oh, yeah. That's where our apps are. So like if your dependencies or you're plugged into one specific thing, like I'm a Mac user, I you not because I switched to Final Cut Pro.

36:26Marques Brownlee:Yeah. That is why I started using a Mac. Yeah. And now here we are a decade later and I'm in the ecosystem and they got me. Yeah. That's that's the point of Neo. That's the point of like all these other, you know, feelers is to just get a device in front of you that gives you options and hopefully like one of those things. And then you are sucked into that ecosystem. Yeah.

36:45Andrew Edwards:I mean, I was the lead reviewer at Android Authority for five years. I didn't use an iPhone until the iPhone 13 when I reviewed it. And I didn't switch to an iPhone until the iPhone 15 because I had USB-C. I would have never touched an Apple device. And all of my dependencies were in Android. Like I could use my world. People were, nobody texted because when I lived in the Bay Area, everyone used Facebook Messenger. But then I moved here. And now I swear I am in so many iMessage group chats that every time I test an Android phone, they bully the shit out. Now look at you. What have they done to our lad?

37:16Andrew Edwards:I know. And I know that you say that's not a real problem, but bullying is real. Okay. I don't like crying. Do you like crying? It sucks. You should, uh, we should get on group me. Oh my God. Fun facts. Oh my God. Worst app of all time.

37:31David Imel:First messaging app of the MKBHD business. Yeah. When Brandon and Vin started. It was a group me. Well, because Marquez and I were in a group me for our, both of our ultimate teams at the time.

37:40Marques Brownlee:Every frisbee team I've played for for 15 years until like last year was a group me. That's unbelievable. That was the most feature, not an app app of all time. It's genuinely, I was talking about Flighty being one of the five best. GroupMe is one of the five worst apps of all time.

37:56Andrew Edwards:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to make one final note related to this, and then we can take it to break, on the Windows 11 thing. Dave2D put out a really good video recently about this. And kind of the gist of this was that a number of years ago, like five or six years ago, he had all of the Windows manufacturers send him laptops that were in the same price range as the Apple M1 Air, I believe, so he could compare them. And all these manufacturers were like, sure, here's our laptop that's that price. And then he asked all the same manufacturers this year to send him laptops that were in the same price range.

38:33Andrew Edwards:And they were all like, no. and I feel like that kind of distills the entire thing that's all you really need to know they're all afraid

38:43David Imel:they knew the video was going to make it look negative

38:45Andrew Edwards:yeah it was going to make it look terrible they didn't really know at the time how insane M1 was but they still feel 5-6 years behind at this point so it's crazy so go watch the video if you haven't already I want to say something nice about Windows because everyone always tells me I'm too mean to my Windows green bubble people I know those are two separate things Windows Green Puff. To me, you're the same. But. Yeah, that's fair. Something nice about Windows. I like that they support old graphics engines. I like that I can still get a DirectX driver that runs on a modern Windows motherboard. I think that's cool.

39:22Andrew Edwards:Apple does not do that. Pre-Premetal stuff, very hard to run on Mac OS. DirectX stuff, very easy to run on a Windows computer. Pre-Metal, you use like rocks and fire. Yes. That was the name of the old Apple graphics engine, actually. Rocks and Fire. Yeah, Steve Jobs was super against it. Yeah, and then when Johnny Ive came in, he said, Aluminium, and they knew it had to be metal. That's a great place to jump to trivia. What was the old graphics driver of Apple? Rocks and Fire. Today we're doing a number question, and it's Delta, not Price is Right rules. Is it United? No, it's Delta. We'll talk about United later.

40:02Andrew Edwards:Yeah, we will. Will we? Yes.

40:05David Imel:I thought. I think we lost our chance to talk about United.

40:07Andrew Edwards:Oh. Yeah.

40:08David Imel:Also.

40:09Andrew Edwards:We don't have to talk about it. That's really cool, but they're like the seventh airline to do that. So I was sort of like, why are we freaking out about this? Skycab. It's mingling bads.

40:18Marques Brownlee:In regular class? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I thought that was like a super, super premium crazy feature. No, no. Most other airlines just call it. The first one that did it.

40:26Andrew Edwards:Are you talking about what you're talking about? Yeah. Okay. United was like, guys, you could get a whole row. and then you can turn it into a bed. And Ming relax, Roe? Relax, Roe. Relax, Roe. Other airlines call it Sky Couch. I think JetBlue does this too. A bunch of the European airlines do it too. This is not like a new groundbreaking thing. This is like a United catching up sort of thing. Well, they pretended it was. Anyway, well, of course, it's a business thing. But anyway, today's trivia question is, Delta, how many Wikipedia pages have the title Apple TV? hmm

41:04David Imel:I'm assuming it counts if it's like Apple TV parentheses

41:08Andrew Edwards:and I'm only accepting Apple space TV by the way those that exact set of was that nine characters in a space what about like would Apple TV plus count seven characters in a space or does it just have to be Apple TV A P P L E space TV and then something in parentheses oh how many Wikipedia pages have that exact title damn. Delta. Can we do a quick shout out?

41:36David Imel:Someone on our subreddit watched Waveform at a planetarium at their university. It was so cool.

41:42Marques Brownlee:I kind of want to know what that sounded like. It was probably like a bees ass. No, it sounded amazing. Probably the opposite. When I worked at Liberty Science Center, the planetarium was sick and it was also, it sounded really good. I don't remember why I remember it sounded really good, but the videos that they played because everything's, it's like you're looking up. Everything's around, you have speakers everywhere. Your visual field is making that sound better. Yeah. At least my memory of it was that it sounded sick.

42:07Andrew Edwards:I really hope they played the episode where Andrew says he can't name all the planets.

42:13David Imel:I just, I wish he stretched it. I wish there was a stretch to fit somehow because seeing one of our giant faces circular, like over top of it.

42:22Andrew Edwards:That is what it felt like to watch Project Hail Mary in the front row in 70 millimeter.

42:26David Imel:Oh man, I've seen the clips of like Oppenheimer from the front row. I was like Crimson Shand.

42:30Andrew Edwards:I watched Oppenheimer from Front Row and I watched Project Hail Mary from the Front Row. Amaze, amaze, amaze, amaze.

42:36Marques Brownlee:Shout out to that person on our subreddit. Yeah. All right. I took a photo. I'll send it to you. We will think about the trivia question. Answers at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

42:43David Imel:Yeah, I don't think I can name all the planets.

42:45Marques Brownlee:Still can't.

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45:08Marques Brownlee:We've made two, I think. Yeah, two now at this point of their video generation models. Yeah. Generate models. Slop. Generate video. Slop, yeah. But it would get higher and higher quality over time. And I remember the first videos from Sora. You know, they were, you know, Will Smith eating spaghetti. but like higher fidelity than before. And it got better and better and it costs more and more and more. And then OpenAI was like, this costs too much. And I'm glad they made that realization because I mean, there's other video generation models out there, but Sora was like the big one that everybody knows about from OpenAI.

45:42Marques Brownlee:And they made the decision to kill the Sora app. And I assume the entire AI slop generator from top to bottom is now gone. They'll probably turn those GPUs towards something else that we're very excited about. Maybe. But yeah. No more Sora.

45:56David Imel:Yeah, big day to dance on a grave. I'm dancing, boy. Yeah, I'm dancing. What's the meme of like, is he giving the peace sign or the praying sign? Oh, yeah, where he's like in front of the grave.

46:06Andrew Edwards:Yeah. Yeah, Sora was bad. The funny thing about this that we reported on when it happened was that Disney had made a$1 billion investment deal with OpenAI about Sora. Oh, yeah. And Disney said, we are going to invest a billion dollars in OpenAI over X period of time. and Sora is going to be in the Disney Plus app with AI generated versions of our characters that you can just sort of scroll through on the Disney Plus app as a sort of like little Disney TikTok feature. This never launched and reportedly the Sora engineers didn't even really know that Sora was getting killed. They even put out a guidelines as to like their safety standards about Sora the day before they announced that they were killing it, which is very funny.

46:50Andrew Edwards:And now that$1 billion deal is not happening. So OpenAI can't find money and now they really can't find money. I guess a billion dollars is like pocket change for them.

47:00David Imel:I mean, I guess how much money were they burning in the process of billion? Yeah, probably more than that.

47:05Andrew Edwards:And also one thing you should know is that pretty much every OpenAI deal is not real money. It's like the idea of money. Nothing ever really happens. Everyone's like, NVIDIA is like, we're investing one trillion in OpenAI. And they're like, what does that mean? And then they just sort of do jazz hands and walk away. You're going to be left out, bro. You know, none of these circular deals are inflating the stock market, and that's why you're seeing a lot of red. A lot of them are like promises to invest over time or something. Yeah, that's what the Disney one was. It was$1 billion investments over a period of time, and it didn't even start.

47:37Andrew Edwards:Yeah, no money had changed hands. No money had changed hands. Huge win. So it's not happening. Yeah. David, I'm going to give you$1 billion over the next three years. I hope my stock goes up. Psych. F***. Uh, yeah. So the, another funny thing about this is that Meta had purchased, had Aqua hired, um, a guy to lead the super intelligence lab. And the first product that they launched was an AI slop generator, video generator that was supposed to compete with Sora. It was, um, it was horrible. And I think they shut it down too, hopefully, but this is good for everybody. Like we don't need more AI slop.

48:13Andrew Edwards:If you're ever on Twitter, there's a lot of fruits cheating on each other on there. I don't know if you've seen this. Fruits? Yeah. Fruits. Yeah. There's some weird stuff. Wait, you guys haven't seen this? I'm jealous of you guys not seeing this.

48:26David Imel:I see mostly, because you can do like the remixes of the YouTube videos. Every once in a while, I'll go to one of our old videos to reference something, and I'll just be like, blah, blah, blah, remixed with this video. And it's a short of like a pregnant cat.

48:38Andrew Edwards:Yeah, they're always pregnant.

48:40David Imel:There's always like a pregnant cat and a dad cat, and they're like having a baby, and it has like your voice over the background.

48:46Andrew Edwards:Well, and the background music is always meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. it's really bad it's like I think it redefines what a shared hallucination are you having it redefines the word slop like really it does

49:00David Imel:it's also this stuff makes a ton of misinformation out there for sure not just straight not just literal harmful videos yeah so

49:08Andrew Edwards:I'm glad it's gone I'm glad I missed that dance on the grave speaking of Instagram meta doing slop things do you want to break this down yeah I'll try and break this down really quick

49:19David Imel:um igdms are no longer going to be end-to-end encrypted by may 8th this is kind of a uh i mean i think everyone knows what end-to-end encryption is you and you're the recipient are the only ones who are able to see the message due to a code uh oh encryption encryption yeah that it has to keys yeah public and private keys um uh so like this feels like a really big deal headline wise but like there's a couple weird things about this that make me confused so i'm gonna read out a couple of the reasons why i think or they've said that they're ending this encryption okay and everyone can be the judge and why they think they really are ending it um so they've been the way they announced this first of all meta is not like a full post they updated a 2022 news post about encryption to say that encryption is ending on may 8th whoa um so like two months away bearing it um And a couple reasons.

50:14David Imel:One, a meta spokesperson said that, which I didn't know about, the encryption is opt-in on Instagram, which I never knew about. I'm sure most people don't know about. And they said very, very few people on Instagram use encryption anyways. Because it's opt-in. Because it's opt-in. Exactly. Yeah. Poor. Communication. Not even just communication, just poor design. I mean, Metapry doesn't want it to be encrypted because they want all of that.

50:40Andrew Edwards:So like, well, yeah, there's a lot of drama going on right now with like the EU and yes, that's the UK. Yeah.

50:46David Imel:So like the next point is FBI, Interpol, UK safety organizations are all urging meta to break encryption because of child safety, because of how much meta in general and Instagram specifically is essentially harming children in so many different ways. one of them being through DMs and with encryption, if the correct people have the encryption on, it makes it really harder to find chat logs and stuff like that. So they're urging Meta to end encryption. Another thing is Meta is just not getting rid of encryption in WhatsApp. They're telling people to just move to WhatsApp if you want encryption-based messages.

51:23David Imel:Just use WhatsApp, bro. They literally pulled the just use WhatsApp. I hate this. And then the last reason, which I think most of us can agree on, is Meta's favorite. but maybe the one they don't want to admit is yes without encrypted DMs they have the ability to use those DMs to target you with advertisements and train data, train AI data on your messages which the reason this is all kind of weird is it seems like most people aren't using it so they're probably doing all this anyways but like the actual end to this is probably just saving them money because they don't have to run compute to encrypt things anymore

51:58Andrew Edwards:and saving them face with like all the public stuff.

52:02David Imel:It's really nice that they're having other people, like government agencies tell them to remove it so they can just be like, well, that's the reason we're removing it. Thanks for the training data. Thanks for the advertising. I'll let everybody be the judge of how they want to see this story with encryption. But I think the thing to know here is if you really care about privacy encryption, don't touch a Meta product.

52:26Andrew Edwards:That's like the easiest thing here. The number one advertising company in the world.

52:30David Imel:Yeah, I think Meta realizes is that like a lot of the DMs on Instagram, they mostly care about you sharing reels and sharing posts and pushing you to other parts of Instagram to spend more time on and gather more data to spend more money. So they don't really care about this. WhatsApp is still encrypted if you want to use that. But I personally would just stay away from Meta products if I really cared about my privacy.

52:50Andrew Edwards:I mean, speaking of which, they just announced yesterday as well that they're going to integrate sort of like buy now buttons into reels. TikTok shop has this. or you can be watching a reel or something and then it will show a little like you can buy this now and it outlinks to a store. Instagram is going to add that. YouTube Shorts has this already probably. The like little product shelves. Dude, on Amazon, what is it? Prime TV, Prime, what do they call it? Prime Video, yeah. You'll be watching like Fallout or something, right? And then it cuts to an ad and in the ad, there will be a purchase on Amazon button that you can just do straight.

53:30Andrew Edwards:It's like, holy moly, we are. Because I only wanted to watch Fallout and I haven't used Amazon Prime TV in a really long time. And I was like, wow, we're in the dystopia where you can literally, the product is in your face and there's just a one-click buy now and ship to me immediately button. It is so crazy.

53:47David Imel:The UI on all these short-form contents, how far are we away from it just feeling like the old annotation scamming where there's like 20 different boxes up on your screen? because we have all these different sets of guidelines for different short form because depending on where you put text or something in a video, it's going to get covered by a username, an icon, the description. And like now we're adding shops and stuff. This is already a really small form factor of what we're watching. There's not a lot of real estate there. So adding all of that on is. Yeah, it's crazy. We're just not even going to watch videos anymore.

54:17Andrew Edwards:It's okay. They're pushing you to use Instagram on the iPad because all they want you to do on that is watch reels anyway. And then you won't misclick because it's a bigger screen. Wow. True. true big brain got him um kind of related the u.s government has officially banned consumer routers made outside of the united states which by the way pretty much all of them yeah essentially all

54:39David Imel:the only one i can really think of that's not is starlink because that's made in texas is that a router yes i guess but like it's not what you would think of in the general sense of like a router when you already have an isp and you're using it as a router in your house um so like similar to banning drones made in foreign countries, the FCC is adding consumer-grade routers made outside of the U.S. to a covered list. And if you're not sure what that is, the covered list is a list that the FCC and Homeland Security Bureau use to add devices that, quote, pose an unacceptable risk to the national security of the United States or the security and safety of U.S.

55:13David Imel:persons. Like you just mentioned, we're all pretty familiar with where technology is manufactured. It's not in the U.S. It's not here. Seriously, it's got to be 90 plus percent of routers are made outside of the U.S.

55:28Marques Brownlee:I'm just looking up all, I'm going one by one to look through all the router companies that they're all like Taiwan. Yeah, they're all not made here.

55:34David Imel:But even some of them might be stationed or like headquartered in the U.S. They're still not manufactured in the U.S. So like, first of all, if you already own a router that doesn't meet this criteria, it's going to work fine. But the new ones then coming into the company, into the United States will be put on a list where the radios won't be authorized.

55:54Andrew Edwards:uh it's just insane like it's so isolationist to say anyone not made in the united i think that's wild like it is it would be more understandable if it was like from specific countries that the government deems to be adversaries or whatever but the fact that it is not in the united it's like i cannot name a single router company that is based in the united states they probably exist

56:16David Imel:but they are not mass market i think tp link is now headquartered in california

56:22Andrew Edwards:but they're probably made in Taiwan. Yeah.

56:24David Imel:Yeah.

56:25Andrew Edwards:Yeah, or Vietnam.

56:26David Imel:I forget exactly where they are. A lot of ones I was finding were made in Vietnam but still that is just straight up foreign country that is not the US. What does this do for like IP or... ISPs? That's exactly what I was thinking. Like what Xfinity... My guess right now is Xfinity, Verizon probably have just a boatload of routers in a warehouse somewhere that they're the ones sending to you but like that needs to update.

56:47Andrew Edwards:Well, I also know that there's sort of a workaround you can do where like all of the parts are basically made outside of the US. And then there was a thing that some companies were doing for a while where it was like all the parts but one were already assembled. And then they would ship all the parts and that one part to the United States and they would put it in the thing and they'd be like, made in the United States. Well, there's like guidelines for made in the USA or assembled in the USA. Like there's things that they need to, like more than 60%. Oh yeah, like the Trump phone, right? Like the Trump phone, yeah.

57:17Andrew Edwards:Yeah, made in the US. No, not even allegedly. Also with the Xfinity routers and stuff, does that count? Because this says consumer. Yeah. How much consumer?

57:27David Imel:So consumer, they define as for residential use and installed by the customer. Installed by the customer. Any Xfinity router you can have just shipped to you and I can install it. Oh, okay. That's what I was going to ask. I mean, maybe. It's a weird thing where the way they're... Because the company's the one buying them in bulk. So I don't know if this would apply to them. The fact that they say consumer grade. I think it's less of consumer bought and consumer grade. Again, it's kind of weird. what they're doing is either companies can apply for like an extension to be allowed into the united states if they're proving that they're working on creating a manufacturing aspect in the united states to pass that i've seen stupid nobody never we've tried this so many times doesn't work or like similar to what dji does the company's just not going to release it in the us for x amount of time until this either stops or just not care have we seen companies like or like

58:17Marques Brownlee:buy a building, like an old manufacturing plant in the US and then just slap a label on it and be like, we're gonna for sure make stuff here. Okay, you're good.

58:26Andrew Edwards:They do a big groundbreaking thing in Arizona and they're like, look at all these jobs and then just leave them empty.

58:31David Imel:The United States is claiming the routers were directly implicated in the Volt, Flax, and Salt Typhoon cyber attacks, which were a set of cyber attacks a while.

58:38Andrew Edwards:Yeah, but I'm confused because the Salt Typhoon ones was about Cisco routers. Okay, so this is the funny thing. United States? It's just like, what?

58:47David Imel:They were Cisco and Netgear routers that were designed by U.S. companies. But the reason they were vulnerable is because the companies stopped providing updates for them. So they were unupdated security risk routers, which has nothing to do with who made them. It has to do with who's continuing the software up there. So this is like saying, hey, hackers targeted vulnerable things because they're vulnerable and probably shouldn't be used or should have been updated anymore. It has nothing to do with the fact. I get that there is like foreign countries that maybe we're worried about and stuff like this, but this feels like a blanket ban that is not actually helping anything.

59:22David Imel:Heavy handed government intervention in tech? No. No. Yeah. So the residential thing I'm really confused about because I'm also confused there is if the main thing we're trying to protect is like government agencies and government information and stuff like me, maybe government shouldn't be using residential. That's what the ban should be. government should stop using residential grade routers and like buildings or the ones made in these certain companies but like why do i need yeah or have one why does that make a difference

59:53Andrew Edwards:if i'm using or have one u.s company like make a government grade one yeah like adapt like change one of the routers to be government grade add features i think in theory the reason it matters if you have one andrew is that you are sort of inherently plugged into your telecom company's network and like that is who all of these attacks were against we're like we're getting into telecom companies networks i i don't know quite enough about this whole thing there's there's obviously

1:00:18David Imel:so much more going on than what we're saying here but it still feels like this wild blanket

1:00:22Andrew Edwards:band that doesn't really no i agree and also watch this is you know me predicting the future but watch oracle launch a new line of u.s faced routers wait oh my god i didn't even think about that yeah no no no i haven't this is not a thing that's happened i know but it will you know it will and they'll be called freedom router yeah so god the cyber attacks were also

1:00:47David Imel:on like energy transportation and water infrastructure stuff as well so it's not just straight up communicate or just communications although those were in there i also i guess saying the router was directly implicated i was like well yeah it was online it has to go through a router but it's because those routers were missing their security updates and had vulnerabilities which is like, yes, if things on the internet have vulnerabilities, people are going to attack them. They shouldn't, but...

1:01:11Andrew Edwards:I really don't know enough about this, but it's always been my understanding that, like, you know, a big part of what routers are doing are, like, assembling these packets that are going out, you know. And so if they're putting... Like, a router with malware on it can put... For sure. ...stuff in a packet that can make it pretty deep inside a network. Yeah. That is, like, the most, like, middle-schooler-friendly way I can describe network communications. That's why Cisco was supposed to prevent this. That's their whole thing. They do B2B. It wasn't him. Is that Cisco? No. Is that a rapper too?

1:01:43Andrew Edwards:Dammit. Shaggy. That's not the first time you've made that mistake. Wait, this confuses me because I feel like if... If a company in the U.S. made routers and those routers were not updated and weren't patched over time, they would also be susceptible to these attacks. Yes. Correct. So what does this do? I don't know. It's just they're going after the wrong problem. I don't know. I imagine. That is a very popular attack vector that is not changing. I imagine it is all a bunch of like bulls**t to just try to. They're so obsessed with stimulating American manufacturing, but they don't understand the amount of work that it requires to actually build an entire business in the U.S.

1:02:24Andrew Edwards:making various things. Like routers. How often do people buy routers? Once every five to ten years. Most people never buy a router. Yeah, they rent it from their telecom. I just, I don't know. Counterpoint, David. If you had one million Optimus robots, you could make them for free whenever you wanted. Think about that. think about that how much would an optimist robot cost me it costs well zero dollars made by other optimist robots how much would it cost me though i don't think you're allowed to have one then how am i gonna get my router send the robo taxi for it i'll just use starlink yeah so um we want to talk about this because it was kind of hot news in the journalism world this week effectively you guys probably know grammarly and there was also an app called superhuman and then grammarly bought superhuman and now Grammarly is superhuman and Grammarly is a product of superhuman.

1:03:15Andrew Edwards:That's your breakdown. Not confusing at all. Not confusing at all. Multiple months ago, but only discovered fairly recently, people discovered this feature within Grammarly that effectively gives you advice based on various different writers that are well known in the writing world or like the tech writing world or things like that. So if you were writing an article or you were writing, I don't know, anything you're writing, you could say like hey what would neilai patel think about this writing that i'm doing so funny

1:03:45David Imel:yes are you serious i'm serious i don't know if it was necessarily you asked neilai patel but it was like if you asked a question about writing an article and it would say like oh it was called expert review and something would come up as an expert is here to give you an example and that example would pop up as like i can't believe i'm saying this out loud but it said neilai patel and with a verified checkmark like Twitter, which is sitting there for no reason. No reason. And then it would say like...

1:04:11Andrew Edwards:Not verified.

1:04:12David Imel:It would give some piece of advice and then to their credit, it would say like, this is inspired by Vergecast hosts and Verge editor-in-chief, Nilay Patel, because of blah, blah, blah, have a source button and then, first of all, no one's going to click that source button. That doesn't count. So yeah, that's what a verified checkmark Nilay Patel would pop up and say, Yeah. Not just him, a bunch of other.

1:04:36Andrew Edwards:And it would also do line edits to like if you had it would like make suggestions based on your writing. And they they were like, oh, yeah, we pulled specific like pieces of work from various different journalists. And then we put it in this AI model. And now it can make suggestions. And it's like, that's just not how this works at all. Like, it's insane. And this feature has been deployed for multiple months, but people only found it recently. So.

1:04:59David Imel:well no no it was deployed it took a while for people to go and it's gone now they took it away

1:05:04Andrew Edwards:yeah it was found recently by like it blew up i think a few months i think last year grammarly had added this feature late last year um not a lot of people were using it no one really noticed it and then recently it kind of popped up in the media because people started noticing it and all these people started writing about it because the people that were writing about it were the people it was impersonating effectively every article was like this is impersonating authors, including me. It was kind of crazy. So, funny enough, Neelai has this podcast called Decoder. He had already scheduled to have the superhuman slash grammarly CEO on the following week.

1:05:42Andrew Edwards:And to that guy's credit, he actually did go on Decoder to talk to Neelai about it, and the interview was very tense.

1:05:49David Imel:From the get-go. From the get-go. From the start, yeah.

1:05:52Andrew Edwards:And so, it became this whole kind of argument about what is attribution versus what is just stealing and using someone's likeness. And the CEO really just defends the idea that's attribution. He talks about, oh, there's a link that you can go to and it clearly says that, oh, this is inspired by this person, but like, it had the check mark. The check mark is, you can't defend it when you do,

1:06:18Marques Brownlee:because everyone knows what the check mark means. In every other context, it means this is verified from this person. Right. If it's on social media, the check mark means this is definitely the person you think it is. Theoretically. Why do they put a checkmark here? They put a checkmark here to convince you that this is legit and this is definitely, like, they're not trying to necessarily convince you that this is actually the human editing your work, but they get about as close to that as possible. And it's definitely impersonation.

1:06:44David Imel:You can't convince me otherwise that it's not attempting to trick a person into thinking this is for real. I don't care what he said in that interview. I know it says at the, like under that inspired by but to put the check mark in is just straight up lying yeah yeah there

1:06:59Andrew Edwards:was a class there is a class action action lawsuit going on which is i think why the ceo couldn't really say a lot because then it could be used against him in court and it's insane to me that he would even do the interview when he knows nila is very combative about these kind of things yeah

1:07:14Marques Brownlee:well then if he doesn't go on the interview then the article is about how he pulled out of the interview yeah then it looks even worse so it's either do you get that i don't think that looks

1:07:22David Imel:He made himself look worse in that interview.

1:07:24Andrew Edwards:Yeah, he made himself look worse. We definitely recommend that you go listen to this or watch it. It's both on their podcast feed. Watch it. Watch it, yeah.

1:07:32David Imel:Seeing facial expressions in it is well worth it. Also, the CEO's whatever laptop he's using should be blown up because the wobble of the screen as he's talking, you're just watching him the whole time. It was a touch screen, Andrew. If you watch a 1.5x screen, it looks like he's in the middle of an earthquake. It's wild. Yeah.

1:07:52Andrew Edwards:This really reminds me of when we had these conversations about these AI image generators and video generators where if you would just put in like tech reviewer like Marquez would just show up. You know, it reminds me of the whole like, who's in this training data? How are they stealing? Didn't we do that recently? It was a long time ago. Oh, okay. It was Sora. Well, there was Sora, but there was also like Gemini. There was early ChatGPT stuff. There was something a few weeks ago where I literally put in like a tech reviewer and it just popped out Marquez. Oh, yeah. When we were out South by Southwest, I said, I said, add a tech reviewer to this photo.

1:08:26Andrew Edwards:And it just added Marquez. And then it said, but it did say, I've added MKBHD. Which, that's a whole, that's the same thing.

1:08:34David Imel:It's like likeness versus. The weird thing about this is Neelai was looking at. So the reason the interview is so good is because like there's personal stakes. Like it's literally impersonating Neelai. So he's the one interviewing, which makes it much more tense. But like what the suggestion it wrote says it's from like using his body of work at The Verge and Verge Cast. He's like, I would never say anything like this. I've never said anything ever like this. So it just feels like straight up lying. To the credit of the CEO, he said like this didn't work out really well. How are we supposed to get into the mind of an editor by only using the final published works?

1:09:13David Imel:Great question. You can't. I know. Exactly. Maybe you can't. And that's what they killed it, which I'm glad they got rid of it. But just that's just impersonation and lying at that point. Who's to say that couldn't have just been like an AI software where Marquez, Marquez Brownlee pops up, verified checkmark and says a piece of advice that Marquez doesn't believe in at all. Windows is the best, the best editing for AK videos. Like, I love my Windows laptop. and then all it has to say is inspired by Marques Brownlee's body of work for, he's a 20 million tech reviewer, blah, blah, blah, source. It's all, it's dog s***.

1:09:51David Imel:It sucks. Trust me, bro. It's very, trust me, bro. And also using the likeness of someone else to prove credibility. And it just.

1:09:58Marques Brownlee:Yeah, I don't see how you ship this feature and not think it's going to blow up on your face. Because in the best case version of this feature, it's like, wow, we're going to have testimonials of people going like, I love this product because it lets me get my work checked by these professionals. And the professional's going, no, obviously, that's not what I would have done.

1:10:18David Imel:He said the reason the small team, he kept saying small team, because he kept saying he wants to not throw that many people under the bus, which he should be under the bus because he ultimately approves it as CEO. But if you are, he keeps saying, you as the person, you might want, Grammarly's supposed to be your language arts teacher sitting right there and helping you make decisions. So he's like, this is a version where some experts you really respect might be right there helping you make corrections into something. And Eli was like, but I wouldn't make those. But I wouldn't make those and I'm not there.

1:10:48David Imel:It's like, yeah, the reason we like all these people is the personal connection we have to them personally. I don't want an AI just pretending they're them. This is basically, you're getting catfished.

1:10:59Andrew Edwards:Yeah, for sure. I mean, Eli even said his line edits are usually just like, feels messy. And that's the whole thing, you know? Anyone who's ever had an editor knows that it's not very coherent thoughts. No, it's just a lot of back and forth. I can't wait until Final Cut adds a Marquez editor. And then I make a J-cut and it's like, great job. Marquez would have done this too. Yeah, that feels bad. It could happen. I think Grammarly took the wrong route with this product. I think instead of people, obviously, Neelai, great writer. People love his writing. But I think they should have gone with people who are known for being unbelievably opinionated writers.

1:11:35Andrew Edwards:and just force them. Like, I want to be writing an email to like Marquez about our health insurance plan or something like that. And then Grammarly's like, and then a little AI Slavaj Zizek, the Slovenian philosopher, pops up and is like, but what does this email have to do with the struggle of the self? And I'm like - I'd like that. Yes, distract me. Susan Sontag comes up and is like, where are the mentions of gender? You know, Hector Berlioz pops up and is like, Ellis, you mentioned nothing about Beethoven's terrible use of the French horn.

1:12:01Marques Brownlee:Yeah, that's fair. I think Clippy could have done any of that Clippy could have done that Clippy could have done all of that

1:12:08David Imel:Stop replicating actual people and giving them that attribution is such a bulls**t argument

1:12:14Marques Brownlee:Free advice to any CEO if you run a company that does any sort of AI product and your goal is to have it replace people in any way think a little harder about how you think that's going to go Just a little harder Take some accountability

1:12:31David Imel:All of them just seem to be like oh well if the models we're using are gonna like pull up the work of blah blah blah and they're gonna use that then that's what the models are gonna do shut the f*** up dude are you f***ing

1:12:42Andrew Edwards:serious yeah i mean every pretty much every ai ceo makes the argument that this is not this is just an average of like a bunch of stuff so it's not copying everything it's just making new content based on like a every every ai ceo is like well you could have read all of nilai's writing and then edited like him and it's like no you can't that's not how this works that's not how any of

1:13:05David Imel:this learning and also like it sounds like it's so funny that the one art example they're arguing over the whole time is a bad like just straight up didn't work in the voice at all yeah which

1:13:14Marques Brownlee:makes it look even worse i think the flaw with that logic would be thinking that all of nilai's thoughts and an experience that he's ever had exists in a training data set yeah which as a human with their own thoughts and experiences that they have not submitted to a training data set

1:13:30Andrew Edwards:no I mean ultimately that's what people in Silicon Valley generally think like they think that you can model everything they think that with enough information with enough data with enough training you can simulate everything you know and so they're like maybe you can but we're not even

1:13:46Marques Brownlee:close to that yet yeah you know that's that's probably why this interview is so good because one of the people who you think you're you have enough data from and it's like no you just don't have enough data. Frankly, I don't want you to have enough data to simulate who I am. Right, because you're not paying.

1:14:00Andrew Edwards:Because the data that Nilay's brain was trained on are things like his childhood. Like things that you can't do that, bro. It doesn't work. Yeah, exactly. Until you put it in a vat. No!

1:14:14David Imel:Go listen

1:14:15Andrew Edwards:to the interview. It's fantastic. Well, watch the interview. Or watch. If you can watch it. So you can get seasickness, yeah. Also part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. VMP, baby. Okay, well, I think we're going to take it to one more ad break.

1:14:28David Imel:And then I'm going to yap about a mouse again afterwards.

1:14:30Andrew Edwards:That's right. We love mice. We love mice. We love Ellis yapping about speakers. To the one person that has read Hector Berlioz's treatise on orchestration other than me, I hope you enjoyed my little reference. He's famous. I'm sure a lot of people did. I don't know who that is.

1:14:47David Imel:Ellis, I agree with everything you say and love everything you say about audio. I've never interrupted you once about it.

1:14:52Andrew Edwards:it's this part of it's this composer who wrote a book about how to write for all the instruments a long time ago and he was really angry and there's this whole passage in the French horn section where instead of talking about how to write for French horn he just goes into this giant beef with Beethoven and he's like that guy Beethoven sucked at French horn he was a coward on the French horn it's very fun to read wait that was a soundboard that was not me sorry Ellis I forgot you were talking what were you no that's interesting i did that to andrew in the in the weekly meeting yesterday where he said something and then immediately i was like but what about this thing that andrew just said and then i had to dm and say i'm sorry you say something

1:15:36Andrew Edwards:karma that was karma karmic retribution okay next question the next question question number two what year

1:15:45David Imel:and we're doing closest without going over yeah what year did Apple release Apple Maps oh

1:15:54Andrew Edwards:you have access to the dock wait don't look don't look I want you to guess too that was the year that people were driving into the lakes right I remember

1:16:04Marques Brownlee:how poorly the launch went I gotta remember the year there's a joke in the WWDC announcement. Yeah.

1:16:11David Imel:It was a dub dub announcement. I'm pretty sure. In Silicon Valley, the show, they're doing like a control group and they're like, oh, this is bad. And he goes, how bad? Apple Maps bad.

1:16:22Andrew Edwards:Sick. That is the bar. One more mouse thing to talk about. I'll make it quick. I won't. We'll be right back.

1:16:37All right.

1:16:37David Imel:Welcome back to Andrew's Mouse Corner. again. I kind of wanted both of these the same week, but then I kind of thought this one was never coming in, and then it came in after we did the Pwnage Sim 3 last week. You gotta order one for next week now, so you keep it going. That will never happen. You just order a Cyborg Rat 7. If you order the Cyborg Rat 7, I'll do a review on the podcast next week. Okay, noted. I will smash that thing by the end. This is the Logitech Pro X2 Super Strike. Not a great name, but A lot of words. This is kind of like the most hype mouse in the scene right now for a couple of reasons.

1:17:13David Imel:One, Logitech G Pro has been kind of like the de facto tried and true gaming mouse for years at this point. I think you could look at like Valorant or Counter-Strike stats of how many people use a specific mouse. And I think the G Pro is top of the list every single time. But so this is the exact same form factor. but Logitech finally decided to do something kind of cool because they've been kind of boring for a while. This mouse on the exterior, it's just everything you'd kind of expect. It's not too flashy. It's nothing like really bad. It's nothing really good. It's just a good form factor, two buttons, symmetrical.

1:17:52David Imel:It's everything you would want. But this one is doing something a little different. This actually has no switches, not mechanical or options. There are no switches. This is fully haptic. What? Similar to like - Is it Hall Effect? No, it's not Hall Effect. It's haptic. Those are optical switches. Oh, okay. It's like your MacBook trackpad, how it is essentially a fake click. And the reason I want to bring it onto this is because I can get reactions from all of you because the easiest way to test what this feels like is I will hand this to you. Okay. And I want you to click the buttons. You can even do them in the microphone.

1:18:28David Imel:Click the buttons right now. What do they feel like? Mush. Mush. Like broken, right? They do move. They do move. But it feels like I'm not actuating. Sure. Now, the switch on the bottom, flip that on, and now start clicking.

1:18:44Marques Brownlee:The sound is not fantastic. The sound's not great, but there is a... Yeah. There's a pretty convincing click to it.

1:18:52Andrew Edwards:I'll let David try this now. This is off. Would you say that you just want to click? You just want to click? Subscribe. Subscribe. Yeah, that feels mushy. It feels broken, right? Yeah, it feels broken. Now flip it on, yeah.

1:19:08Andrew Edwards:Yeah, this is amazing audio. It's great for audio listeners. I mean, we're getting... Oh, yeah, okay. So it goes from feeling like broken to like there's something there. There's still a lot of actuation force. I agree with you.

1:19:19David Imel:I'm not like full... Well, so that's one thing. That's higher than I would like. That's something that now we can do with this mouse is we can change a couple different things. We can change actuation force. Oh. we can change essentially like the clickiness of it and you can change what it's calling rapid trigger, which is essentially was really popular on keyboards a couple of years ago. Stuff like SnapTap where not only, it got worked in in certain things. Like it could do things that programs would make it think was possibly cheating because essentially what it's doing is if you have an actuation length going down until the button's actuated, essentially what you could do is the lift off to reset that could be very, very small.

1:20:02David Imel:You can make it really small. So a way this can be really beneficial is if you're in a game where, let's say you have a gun that's semi-automatic. So each click is one shot. If that gun is really strong, but the weakness of it is it's semi-automatic, but now you can make your actuation really small and your reset activation really short as well. You can just, and it feels like an automatic gun. That would hurt my finger. That's pretty sick that you can get some. And so right now I have the left click as a five in your haptics. Out of five. Five out of five, and the right is on one. So if you click these now, it's not a big difference, but there are five levels of activation per button.

1:20:46David Imel:Buttons can be different as well. This is kind of a cool thing in the mouse world. How new is this? This is brand new. This is within a month. Okay. I don't know if you want to try left versus right. Like I said, this isn't like the craziest thing, but like the ability to have this in a mouse is such a smaller version of where you can put this in versus a keyboard where you have full PCBs and individual switches and everything. So I thought this was kind of cool. I don't have much to say about it. How much is it? $180. There is one other cool thing, which is super niche, which is a lot of people, when they're doing something called bunny hopping in first-person shooters, is they actually change their jump button from the space bar to the wheel so that you can just, bunny hopping is when you jump and you hit the jump the second you hit the ground, which carries momentum in a lot of games, which lets you move faster.

1:21:40David Imel:So when people do it on the wheel, it makes it so you're always hitting the jump as you land because you're not just pressing space one time, you're scrolling through it, which is like 10 jumps at a time, right? You can just scroll. You can just scroll to be your jump. So that's how people will make sure that their jump is always landing at the perfect point. This has a bunny hop mode. So like it makes it really sensitive.

1:22:01Marques Brownlee:What? I know I wasn't bad at FPSs. I just don't have the right mouse. Yeah, you just weren't bunny hopping correctly. I just don't have the equipment.

1:22:06David Imel:It has a thing so you can't accidentally scroll the scroll wheel when you're clicking buttons, which can happen sometimes because if you jump when you're trying to fire, you completely screw up recoil and everything. But yeah, there's not much to this. I will say, since this is a totally new technology in a thing that you press thousands of times in a life cycle very quickly, I would probably wait until people are using this for a while.

1:22:29Marques Brownlee:We have haptic trackpads, like you mentioned. So there's a motor in there, and then there's the sort of attachment to the moving piece. Theoretically, that's similar tech to the trackpad. That should last a long time.

1:22:42David Imel:Think about how often you click on your trackpad versus how often you might click in like one game of Counter-Strike. Dude, that's fair. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, or Dota. Dota is literally all movement is based on clicking. It's probably 500 to 1 ,000 clicks like a game.

1:22:58Andrew Edwards:Probably more.

1:22:59David Imel:It might be more where like you do that on this trackpad.

1:23:01Andrew Edwards:Dota is like an hour-long game. and to move, you have to be like the whole time.

1:23:08David Imel:My computer's going crazy with this hash right now, but yeah. I want to do a LAN party one day and actually play Dota and Valorant and all that stuff. I have such dog at Valorant now, but... I don't know how

1:23:19Andrew Edwards:anyone gets into Dota. It's like the most complicated game. Because I don't know, like you guys say these games, I know nothing about them. I'll play with you one day.

1:23:26David Imel:We'll play. Let's play. Let's play Valorant. Let's play a let's play. Let's play a let's play. Studio stream.

1:23:34Andrew Edwards:um yeah i'm guardian five which is the second lowest tier and i have 4800 hours well marquez just bought his rat mouse so yeah you bought the mouse no i should i really want to though i want to just try i'd be better at that i bet you that mouse how much does that mouse weigh this is

1:23:53David Imel:60 grams it can weigh as much as you want yeah it's customizable it's i remember the days of adding weights where now everyone is like I need to shave grams off of my mouse. If this thing is over 35 grams, I ain't touching it.

1:24:06Marques Brownlee:It could weigh up to 157 grams.

1:24:09David Imel:That's like

1:24:10Marques Brownlee:having a mouse with progressive overload is crazy.

1:24:13David Imel:It's like weight training.

1:24:14Andrew Edwards:It's modular, baby. The AI overview, which is almost definitely wrong, but it says that one game of Dota can be between 5 ,000 to 10 ,000 clicks. That's insane.

1:24:26David Imel:To be fair, this is something where like gaming really loves to do the and we've seen this with frame rates and graphics cards and everything is like you need this to be better but it's like the point top 0.5 percent might find like a huge difference in this i do think this will be more interesting than like snap tap because counter strafing is something that is really hard to do but in games we're just like a semi-automatic rifle might need to fire faster you can do that so easily on a mouse like this uh i need to go home and actually try it. But now I have two mice to try and no time to try them.

1:24:59David Imel:Three. So I'm just going to start playing games at work.

1:25:01Andrew Edwards:Yeah, it's James Bond, No Time to Try. Can I also make a quick announcement? Sure. Streetlight Manifesto. Oh my God. This band. Alright, trivia. I've been waiting. Their album still didn't come out. Okay. That's the announcement? There's, okay. They announced the show in June. That's the announcement. But in December, they said that there wouldn't be another show until the album comes out, which was last June when the album was supposed to come out.

1:25:31Marques Brownlee:So is the Tesla Roaster going to come out?

1:25:34David Imel:Siri 2.0 or Streetlight Manifesto first?

1:25:39Andrew Edwards:That's a good question. Probably at the same time. Someone was joking on the Streetlight subreddit that the reason it hasn't come out was because their music is going to be in GTA 6's like the radio station. so they're just delaying it alongside GTA 6 and I just had to tell you guys that for my like two fans out there that care about this I know there's at least two though because Ellis told me that at South by Southwest somebody said that her husband cared about Streetlight she was like my husband's a huge fan of the podcast like I'm so sorry like I've never seen an episode I don't really know anything about it but I do know that someone on the podcast is like a fan of this really small band I'm really really into And I was like, it's Streetlight Manifesto and David, isn't it?

1:26:22Andrew Edwards:She was like, yeah. So thank you. Now we can do trivia. Can I tell you guys a funny AI overview thing that happened to me a little bit ago? Yeah. I was trying to Google the English translation. I was trying to see if there was an English translation of this book. That's like a collection of folklore that I really wanted to read. And so I searched English and then the name of the book. And it's like a collection of these stories. and AI Overview mixed up the ISBN, which is like the book registration number with the number of stories in it. So it said, The Mabanagion is a collection of 11-12-502-39255-0811-13728-10023-3801809012-321154 Medieval Welsh Prose Tales.

1:27:13Andrew Edwards:I don't know what that number is, but I guarantee you there is not that much of anything in anywhere. That's almost as long as the Cimmerillion. I had a huge fight with

1:27:24David Imel:AI Overview. Well, it was like Google Lens search and then the AI like trying to I was trying to find a keycap that was on the Mech Keyboard subreddit and I said, what is this? And it like kept bringing me saying, oh, it's this and this model from this artist and it's on this website. I'm like, I can't find it on the website. are you sure oh just kidding it was actually this one for so long and then it kept going like absolutely right it just kept saying it's definitely from this i said what picture show me link just send me a link only give me the link don't say anything else and just never got it and then i just replied on the subreddit and in like five minutes he answered what it was from and i was like i hate it so freaking talking to humans is better than talking to did it just send you

1:28:06Andrew Edwards:this picture over and over again? A key on a baseball cap?

1:28:12David Imel:Damn, that's a fire hat.

1:28:14Andrew Edwards:Wait, you should buy that. I should definitely buy this. How many Wikipedia pages are there called Apple TV? And I'm looking for Delta. You can go over. Delta Airlines. Do you know why it's called Delta Airlines? Because it changes what place you're in. Yeah, that's... I made that up. That's not true. I thought you were going to say it. It almost is definitely because of Price is Right Airlines. Steve Delta. I was going to say Delta Wings, but jetliners don't use Delta Wings. Delta Christ. I don't... I think it's actually just changing where you are. It's just changing where you are.

1:28:49David Imel:I think he was actually on the Deltatarian diet and just came back from it. He was eating only triangles.

1:28:55Andrew Edwards:Allegedly, it is named after the Mississippi Delta. Guys, how many Wikipedia pages whoever gets the closest... It's a river. It's the mouth of the river. I said six. Six is incorrect. Okay. I said seven. That is also incorrect. I said seven. That is third incorrect. But Marquez was closest. There are three. Oh. There is. That's kind of a trick question. There is the page for the Apple TV hardware device, the Apple TV streaming service, and the Apple TV app, which you can get on other devices. Because these are dedicated pages.

1:29:27Marques Brownlee:There would be more than one for the hardware device. There are three things called. 2024.

1:29:32Andrew Edwards:But there's not separate pages. there's just one page that details all of them. No, these are three separate Wikipedia pages. I'm talking about the hard to write pages. Yes, no. Apple TV Wikipedia pages. Marquez needs the point, so I'll give it to him. Not a single TV made by Apple. I'm now going to hand it off to Adam for a quick update on that score. Marquez with 19. Andrew with 19. David, waiting to lead. 23. Next question. What year did Apple release Apple Maps?

1:30:07Marques Brownlee:What year? Closest without going over. Too high? Yep. Jesus. Yeah. I think it's this, but let me think. So, dub dub. I don't know. Probably it was farther. Without going too high?

1:30:25David Imel:Indeed. Without going too high.

1:30:28Marques Brownlee:Dang. I'll try it.

1:30:32Andrew Edwards:and flip them and read what do you guys got oh Jesus

1:30:37Marques Brownlee:I'm just going to say all of you are wrong but tell me what your answers are I wrote 2017 nope I wrote 2014 nope

1:30:47David Imel:but Andrew gets the point because I didn't go over it was 2012 that's my first point maybe in 2026 no I went on a blazing lead to start, and I have not had anything. Essentially, the New Jersey Devils. We're going to have to do it. Blow it out of the water and then just die. Oklahoma City Thunder? Yeah.

1:31:12Andrew Edwards:Sacramento City Kings? Oh! That's because I grew up there. That's a good episode. I went to a lot of games. Kobe? No, Kobe wasn't. Nope. Sorry, he was on the... Oh, that's Bam. Bam? No, it was the old guys. Yeah, you got this. When the Kings were good. Uh-huh. Hit it. No, he was not. Bibby? Are you a Bibby fan? Bibby? I had a bobblehead of Bibby. Of Bibby? Yeah, the Bibby bobblehead. Bibby bobblehead. Bibby bobblehead. Kevin Durant. No. Peja Stajakovich. Does that ring a bell? Peja Stajakovich. Doug Christie. Doug Christie. Oh.

1:31:47Marques Brownlee:Okay. Yeah, Doug Christie. Mike Bibby.

1:31:50Andrew Edwards:Brad. Lander. Brad. No. Lander. Brad. Brad. Miller. I don't know. My grandpa was really into Kings basketball, so we went to a lot of games, actually. Wow. I was waiting for you to explain the film in basketball terms, and you never did. Oh, yeah. Oh, the film. Oh, yeah. Somebody posted this photo. Well, okay. Real quick. I got to give you guys. Okay, I got to tell you about this. I'll explain. I'm sorry. It's not about Streetlight, though. It's about film. Okay, so Kodak. You know Kodak? Yeah, I saw him.

1:32:25Marques Brownlee:I know Kodak.

1:32:26Andrew Edwards:They went bankrupt a long time ago. I believe you. Yeah, they went bankrupt. Kodak was basically like IBM. They were like one of the biggest companies in the world for quite a long time. Then they went bankrupt because they were stupid. Because nobody shoots film anymore. That's not true. I do. Anyway, they had to split into two separate companies as part of the bankruptcy. And they became Kodak and Kodak Olyris. Kodak Eastman and Kodak Alaris. The way that the deal worked was that Kodak Eastman would produce the film and they would sell the film to Kodak Alaris, which would then sell the film to consumers.

1:33:07Andrew Edwards:They'd package it, sell it to consumers. Really strange bankruptcy. I don't get that. Yeah, I don't really get it.

1:33:11David Imel:Hey, we don't have any money, so let's just be the same company, but two companies are the same thing.

1:33:16Andrew Edwards:Yeah, I don't know. There's details and there's business stuff. Tax reasons. Tax reasons. I don't know. Anyway, fairly recently, Kodak Eastman, and I'm not sure why this started happening, became able to sell film itself again. So now, Kodak Alaris still exists, who they are still selling film to. But they are now, they have new packaging and new names for like a lot of the film that they're selling. So there's like Ultramax and like there's Portra and all this stuff. Portra is the Kodak Eastman like name for the film but Alaris name for the film but the Kodak Eastman version is now called like Kodakolor or something like that

1:33:55Marques Brownlee:so anyway

1:33:56Andrew Edwards:over the last like six months they've been re-releasing all these films but with like different packaging and different names generally cheaper because they don't have to do like they don't have to sell it Eastman doesn't have to no Alaris doesn't have to make a margin anyway on Instagram they posted we just released this new film and someone said can you explain this to me in basketball terms

1:34:19David Imel:okay

1:34:21Andrew Edwards:David so I think my basketball thing would be like if Mike Bibby and Kobe is that bad to say no it's a basketball player my baby and Kobe Bryant were like the same person and then they split into two people. This is a bad analogy. I can't make the basketball analogy. I don't know enough about basketball to make the basketball analogy. I think that's a hard thing to do anyway. I can do a tech analogy.

1:34:48David Imel:People can't split in half.

1:34:51Marques Brownlee:If you can make a tech analogy, I will try to make it a basketball.

1:34:54Andrew Edwards:Okay, okay, okay.

1:34:55Marques Brownlee:Good, this is like telephone. He just did. I like this.

1:34:57David Imel:I like this. Film companies split in two. Basketball it.

1:35:00Andrew Edwards:But no. Okay, let me do a tech analogy. Yeah. Okay. Imagine if Android had to spin off from Google, right? and which we've or chrome let's say chrome okay and google still made chrome but they couldn't distribute it and chrome the company was the one that like actually packaged it and distributed it to people and then later on uh for some reason google was once again able to make chrome and because chromium is open source because they still have the like they still have the rights to do it they released it under google chrome as opposed to just chrome you know i got i got a version

1:35:43Marques Brownlee:okay basketball it'll be like if kevin durant played for a seattle team called the supersonics and then at some point they went away and they split kevin durant went to another team and the supersonics went away and became oklahoma city thunder and then later the nba was like we should make an expansion team in Seattle. And Kevin Durant went back to the Seattle team.

1:36:09Andrew Edwards:Oh. I like it. Okay. We should

1:36:11Marques Brownlee:clip that and comment on that guy's comment. Let's see if that works. That was like a game of telephone. It might happen. It might not. All that we've learned a lot on the pod. That's some human explanations. Yeah. Hopefully some of that is accurate. Hey, thanks for watching. See you in April. Wait, really? It's been a really long March. I know. Oh, it will be good. April 1st. Wait, is it going to be April 1st when we record? Next time we record, it'll be April, officially. April 1st. So thanks for tuning in. Thanks for subscribing. Thanks for hyping. I think we finally killed that feature. Either way, catch you guys next week.

1:36:44Marques Brownlee:Peace.

1:36:44David Imel:Waveform is produced by Adam Alina and Ellis Riven. We're partnering with Vox Media Podcast Network, and our charter music was created by Vane Still. Bingo. That's a quick one.

1:36:59Marques Brownlee:in hindsight if i was a teacher and i gave the assignment this would probably be like a lesson in like just how big the solar system is but i was a very literal i was like i have to make everything the right size guys.