New Pixel Fold, Tablet, and a ZenFone Too!

0:00Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe, this thing weighs a ton. Drewski, lift with your legs, man. Santa, Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not that. Of course he did. Right, Santa? You know, my elf Drewski here, he handles the nice list. An elf? I'm 6 '3". What everyone wants is iPhone 17. And at T-Mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus? I'm Mrs. Claus' much younger sister. And at T-Mobile, there's no trade-in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone. Or give it as a gift.

0:32And the best part, you can make the switch to T-Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes. Nice. My side of the tree is slipping. Get back! The holidays are better at T-Mobile. Switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trading needed. With 24 monthly bill credits for well-qualified customers plus tax and$35 device connection charge. Credits end and balance due if you pay off earlier or cancel. Finance agreement, 256 gigs,$830. Eligible port in a new line,$100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Check out in 15 minutes or less per line. Visit T-Mobile.com.

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1:31What is going on, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marquez. I'm Andrew. Oh, Andrew's not here. Andrew's not here. He's on vacation. I'm David. And Andrew is, he'll be back next week, I'm pretty sure. He's, well. Maybe. There's some flight things happening. Airports are ruining everything. He got stuck somewhere in the United States. Yeah, this isn't new. We all knew airports are terrible. But we do have a lot to talk about this week. So we're going to do all of that. We have a bit of a backlog. YouTube testing some games. Pixel Fold review is out.

2:04Tesla charging standard is just all the dominoes are falling at once and it's all happening. Yes. First of all, wait, David, you know this is a video podcast, right? Wait, is my camera being covered up? You are completely behind this laptop that you brought. Let me, sorry, I'll just turn it. There we go. Oh, that's a huge difference that just made. Better, right? Oh, that's fine. Oh, it's glitching. No way, really. I am shocked by this. Okay, can you explain what's in front of you right now? Yes. Because I don't know. I've not seen this until now. Okay, so this got announced at CES and finally, finally came out like a couple weeks ago.

2:44That is actually all you had to say. Yeah. That explains so much of what I'm looking at. This was announced at CES and finally just came out in June. Okay, so what is it? This computer is called the Lenovo Yoga 9i or Yoga Book 9i. It's a dual screen laptop. Laptop is a strong word. Laptop is a strong word because you can't really use it on your lap. You can sometimes. There's basically four different form factors of it. I got very excited when I saw it at CES. And then a friend of the show, Michael Fisher, did a review on it recently. And I was like, this is kind of sick. Well, he'll review anything that folds.

3:21I know, exactly. So that qualifies. It does fold in half. But it's kind of dope because it has two screens, so you can either have it in, like, dual-screen landscape orientation or dual-screen portrait orientation. And it's got this, like, folding, what would you call it, the origami back kickstand. I see that. That also wraps around the exterior keyboard. It's actually very cool. I'll just show it to you real quick. Okay. So you can click like this. Is it cool, though? Yeah, I'm trying. I'm really trying. And then the origami, not only does it hold the pen, it wraps around the keyboard. Okay, that's clever.

3:53You just got it like that. But then but the magnets aren't very strong. Can I hold it? Yeah, you wanna hold it? The magnets don't seem very strong on that or that I thought this was magnetizing to the laptop. No, no Oh, so you have to hold you have to carry both. Yeah, yeah You also have to carry the mouse so you have to carry the laptop the case. Yeah, and the mouse all separately. Yes. Why? Yeah, I know is this actually good or is this just kind of a fun thing? It's fun like if you're bored of laptops, this is cool, but this is actually not But there's so many form factors. Like, look at that.

4:25So, like, it's like origami, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's magnet. There you go. Magnets. So you can have it, yeah, it, like, leans back. For audio listeners, I'm very sorry. There's only one angle. There's only one angle. Yeah. And it's, well, no, because there's that. Well, then your top screen, I guess, has more angles. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, I'm just messing with it. It's fun. It's a fun piece of tech. I wonder about these types of computers sometimes. Because I see sometimes the Lenovo Yoga Book and all the ones that like flip over and the commercial with like use it in tent mode. Use it in tablet mode.

5:03Yeah. And they work. And as a reviewer, I guess I can only say like, yeah, they do work. But as a user, I can't help but wonder like how many people actually use it in these different modes. Lenovo is like the only company that would ever make something like this. Of course. because they just make so many products that probably nobody buys off axis that screen is blue yeah the screens are not color matched like at all um yeah so it's running a 15 watt i7 uh intel processor but it's it's the u series so it's 15 watts so like you probably can't do anything that intensive on this but personally like for research purposes and stuff it's kind of fun i think ultimately i would rather just use two arc instances on my 16 inch macbook pro yeah um but i was that guy at the coffee shop yesterday with it and i did you have a vertical like yes i did so you had the keyboard in front of you uh-huh a screen in front of you and then on top of that a second screen because of how you had it oriented oriented oriented yeah oriented yeah that's weird thanks it is what were you using it for like what were you writing the podcast i was doing i was had the script on the top and i had uh the websites i was referencing the info from on the bottom and as someone who uses two screens all the time because i like using two screens i would never use this as my main that's what i was looking for that's exactly what i was getting to i feel like we're so generous we're like oh yeah it's like kind of cool and the origami and the magnets are kind of strong and i would never use this yeah it's cool and fun and i just wanted to play with it so that's totally fair and it's the closest any tech manufacturer has gotten to crumple phone that's there's like seven creases in this thing if not more that's true actually a fact we're on the fast track to progress baby but they did think think it through really well like the the origami thing wraps around the keyboard it holds the pen you know i can agree with that yeah it's well thought out yeah there are a lot of clever things that they did to make it do what it does yes i would still never use it though correct got it so i don't know um yeah fisher and i have had a fun time talking about it is that crazy i just would never whatever that's okay what is tent mode oh well so there's technically five modes for this right right tent mode is the thing that lenovo tried to push when the original yoga came out that was the first computer to like go around uh 360 degrees for the audio listeners david has folded the laptop hinge backwards on itself so now it's sort of this triangle with two outward facing screens i'm a tent yeah so i'm a wigwam i'm a tp um so at this point you can just sort of do this if you don't want it to be like would you ever do that well my google doc is on the other side yeah it's just shining a screen out wait does it not turn off the other screen when it's in 10 mode no which seems badly designed i also want to play like go fit or uh guess who or battle battleship or i also want well no because you can't have two mice doing two separate things you just have to fling that instance they're not they're not both touchscreens they are but it would like pull focus from your mouse if i was like working on something it would pull focus to the other side if it could run like two separate mice with two separate instances and you could just have two people working on two different documents on one computer that'd be dope with that would be that u-series processor that would be insane it would die so fast on the other side of the table yeah i don't know um if you use your laptop in tent mode please tweet at david and no i want to i gotta see i want to see what is like unironically not just like i have a laptop then cat that can sometimes go into tent mode i I want to hear from you if you actively bought a laptop because it can go into tent mode.

8:56Yeah. And then you do it all the time. Yeah. I don't believe you. Yeah. Yeah. I also want to note really quickly that when I took this out of the box, everything worked. And then it had 75 Windows updates, which I'm not even joking. Wow. I installed all of them and then everything broke. All of the like putting the keyboard. Oh, because I didn't even show you this feature yet. So if you want to, you could use it like this. And then you take the keyboard out of the thing. And if you put it at the top of the bottom screen, this becomes a trackpad. I've seen that. So for audio listeners, David just took the keyboard, put it on the second screen, and it's like where a normal keyboard would be on a laptop.

9:36Yeah. And if you put it on the bottom part of the second screen, you get this thing where either your calendar or your Outlook shows up here. And then a really crappy Microsoft News thing is on the right side. and you can't change this at all. I want to make a video on this called This is Really Cool, I Would Never Use It. You want to make the video? I kind of think that's what this is. Yeah. We could. I kind of like this. This is every CES product's dream. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. You go to CES and you see things like this and you're like, oh, cool. And then you just walk away. Yeah. And that's kind of what this probably was.

10:11But Lenovo is the only company that actually ships this stuff. Fair enough. But it's just so crappy that you cannot replace this crummy like news widget it's just permanently there you can't edit this bar at all man yeah it was pretty much fisher's biggest uh grape with the thing good for you lenovo i mean not good but still you're doing things you're doing keeping it interesting and i gotta give you credit for that i wish i could use arc on this but not on windows yet so i'm stuck with edge yes you are or chrome or chrome oh yeah anyway anyway i factory reset it and it finally works again oh that's good um i'm happy for you there's another problem but i think we should move on let's talk about youtube for a second okay all right so we we had this on the dock we want to talk about this i actually have no idea how they plan on doing this because they had some steady integration a while ago that kind of sounded like this but the new headline is that youtube is testing games on the platform yeah you got games on your platform uh the idea is uh you'd be able to play a game uh on youtube.com that's the whole idea yeah either on the on the website on desktop or also on ios and android yeah um netflix did this last year they launched like a games thing how did that go it's out in the u.s uh it's i haven't tried a lot of them it feels kind of like crummy mobile games yeah i've heard mixed things like one of my friends said that they did it one night when they didn't know what to watch so they just played the game and it was like mildly entertaining and then another friend said they tried it and it was like the most janky thing ever so they just never used it again in my eyes it's like the chrome dinosaur game when your internet's out just a really really low priority background thing to do when you have nothing better to do it's something netflix like wants to do to keep people on the platform so that they can serve you more ads or you know maybe after you finish the game all of the shows are right there so you're like i might as well watch a show they just don't want you to leave netflix and i guess youtube's doing the same thing so the the stadia thing from a while ago if i'm remembering it correctly was actually kind of cool it was a cool idea the integration yeah it was an integration where like there could be a youtube video about a game where you're let's say playing through a specific level of a game and if you liked the gameplay you could actually like hit a button and it would jump you into that level of that game where you could play it yourself yeah so the sort of stadia was the cloud gaming thing and then youtube was cloud videos and they would all talk to each other and it would be this super cool immersive thing and i kind of liked that idea but now stadia is dead yeah it was cool because it was like there were specific integrations you could be watching back when youtube gaming was a thing yeah before they closed that down yep you could be watching someone playing a live stream of a game and they could be trying a level over and over and over again and if they didn't couldn't finish the level they could be like any do you think any of you guys could do this and you could literally like hop into exactly where they were in the game where their character was with the same items like everything that was the dream they never released that feature um but then you know stadia died um it's crazy google never kills things that's weird oh we never even talked about this by the way speaking of google killing things they killed google domains google killed another thing that's crazy um it's crazy about that what is we just moved mqbhd.com to google domains i have everything on google like a week before they nuked it all of my domain great yeah great job google but yeah so this this is kind of a weird thing like i i could see them being like okay well we made stadia we did built out a lot of features in stadia so we might as well like use some of that technology in youtube if we have an opportunity to whether or not they actually use any of the stadia stuff or they just go the netflix route and make it like really crappy mobile games i have no idea i have a prediction it's a bold prediction yep this will be killed in a year bingo well if it even comes out in a year because currently they are the only reason this uh article is posted about this is that they are asking people internally at google to test it so it's not public it's not public yet okay um and whether or not it even becomes public in the future we have no idea they could just be messing around but i think it just got leaked that a bunch of internal googlers were like oh my computer just turned off wait okay yeah they're reportedly testing it so this is something sort of behind the scenes that they maybe are possibly working on yeah so i don't know it's it's just weird to like have these streaming services and be like we're a weird gaming service now sort of but it's not legit games it's like really weird mobile games weird supported games yeah yeah it's like when steam um started putting mobile games on steam and it was just like because there's fallout shelter do you remember that game it was like a fallout game but it was not fallout it was like a little just mobile oh the android version yeah but it was not even remotely fallout it was like a little like castle game anyway yeah just weird just more just more adding weird features to weird um streaming services which is strange i'm gonna we should we should like place bets on when it would come out and then how long it would take to kill it youtube just killed stories like a month ago yeah they're they're chopping things they are chopping things speaking of chopping things oh uh we also have on the doc tiktok plans on closing down what they initially made basically as a be real clone it's called what was it called tiktok now tiktok now yeah so be real for those who are uh let's say over the age of 30 i think tiktok now yeah be be real was just a a real time or is it is a real-time social network where essentially once per day everyone on the app at the same time gets a notification and has to take a picture and it started kind of blowing up it this was post 2020 i don't know if it's associated with the pandemic at all but it definitely blew up and had this moment where other social networks were like oh they had that that moment that we all have network or a feature yeah is this a platform or a platform or a feature yeah so for b real it's their entire platform and for tiktok they're like i think we could make this a feature yes yeah so they made their own version of it where everyone would get a notification at the same time instagram has it too instagram yeah what is theirs called i don't know it has yeah nobody uses it i don't think i think they'll kill it too but yeah i think what we're all discovering is b real has a specific kind of like i don't want to say cult following but people use b real to use b real as different as not Instagram as not TikTok yeah so people on TikTok don't want to use it the way they were using be real yeah so yeah I'm not shocked that this uh ends up getting pulled but also be real is kind of crashing yeah the interesting thing about that is that um apparent like be real launched as a way to be the sort of anti-social media curated Instagram thing because Instagram stories which was stolen from Snapchat stories yeah became just like Instagram became a way to kind of like only post when you're having fun only post when you look great you know and so there was sort of this like anti especially the gen z is like very for this but like not just posting a curated version of yourself posting yourself in an everyday scenario to make people not feel like comparative against each other so the whole b-roll thing was like it's going to go off at a random time you have to post it within two minutes otherwise otherwise you get like docked for it um but i think that people liked it at first but then every single day it was just like people at their desk another people in their in their bed another in their car yeah it was just the same content every day and there is still a pretty dedicated community to it but there were reports that the uh user base dropped 60 something percent uh 61 between october 22 and march 23 and i think that people are just getting like tired of seeing each other in mundane scenarios because it's like why am i even on my phone yeah that's six months that's that's pretty dramatic yeah it's a pretty uh b-roll does dispute those numbers uh of course but you know who knows and ultimately yeah i think it's just like a platform and this feels just like clubhouse right yeah clubhouse clubhouse had its rise in popularity like very associated with the pandemic and it was very much like hey we're all at home now but what if i just jumped in a room that's an audio only room so i don't have to like do my hair and makeup so i just like show up and people are talking and we have this room of people and it had this really big social moment and then every other social network almost it feels like every other social network went wait a second we could build that as a feature as a feature yeah and one by one they all built it as a feature and then clubhouse which still exists but doesn't really it's just kind of a crypto thing it's sort of like a yeah a wasteland like yeah like a tumbleweed will pass by and then you'll hear like crypto noises passing by like ah it's clubhouse um yeah the feature exists in some other social networks but a lot of them have killed that and it's it's beyond social networks right it's in slack now like slack has rooms now that actually kind of makes sense yeah it makes it's called huddles and and rooms yeah i believe yeah beyond just social networks just all these applications were like wouldn't it make sense just to have an audio room and it was a reaction to the pandemic because people were saying they missed the like random coffee or like a water just water cooler conversation yeah so it became a space where you could just drop in and sort of just like talk to people and it was really popular during the pandemic because people are isolated i also have this really depressing story about clubhouse that i want to just say really quickly okay so right when it was getting popular i didn't really know what it was so i downloaded it i was like in my apartment with michael we were just sitting in the living room i go into it and there's a room called quiet room and there were like thousands of people in it i was like oh so i dropped into the room and everyone was on mute and i was like man this is so cool it's like weird it's like a weird human experience thing where everyone's alone and everyone's lonely but because you're in this silent room this quiet room you know that there's all these other people that are having the exact same experience as you and that's like heartwarming in a way and then I found out I was completely wrong and it was just a follow for follow thing it was like you go in the room and follow every single user and then every other user follows you oh you had this like wholesome like yes unity moment yeah like oh no this is just f or f because I looked it up and I was like this is so cool and I looked it up like quiet rooms on on clubhouse and there were all these articles they're like follow for follow quiet rooms and i was like oh my god i like how follow for follow is like a forever thing in the internet yeah it'll always be a thing it's always been a thing yeah wow so yeah um i don't know why tiktok is closing it down like i don't know it's just like never caught on the same reason youtube's killing stories it still seems weird to close down features that already exist that you don't really have to like maintain that much i think it's just like code bloat yeah it's just like bloat on this platform that they don't if they want to focus on their core thing they might as well just remove the distraction i can see youtube closing stories because i got a random youtube story in my feed last week and but only one channel that i'm subscribed to ever post stories and so it's just weird having like one and then a bunch of white space and i think that's why youtube closed that down zero for sure yeah um the tiktok thing i I don't even have TikTok, so I don't even know what it looked like before.

21:55I never even saw this feature. Oh, well. Literally never even saw it. There you go. Probably why they're closing it down. Well, we got a bunch more to talk about. We should take a break. But, of course, that means we should do our first trivia question. Yeah.

22:12Trivia. Okay. Trivia, dude. So, first question. Twitch is obviously wildly popular for gaming streamers, which youtube responded to by launching youtube gaming yeah it was launched in 2015 when was it discontinued and just made part of the youtube app oh man yeah they had a separate app yeah there was a separate youtube gaming yeah briefly for less than a year i think i mean i don't know how long that was you'll get one point for the year two points if you get the month as well oh man yeah that'll be a shot in the dark but i'm gonna try i bet andrew gets it when i ask him later i know he might know he might know i mean i could tell you that it died i couldn't tell you when but i'm gonna try i remember reading the news article about it coming out and downloading it immediately when i read the article i never used it again i remember seeing that it was a separate app and i went ah not gonna use that doomed yeah i went yeah i was working a really boring data entry job so it was the most exciting part of my day that's why i like that that wasn't intel That was the worst company, if there could possibly be one.

23:20Anyway. Well, we're going to do the answers at the end, so we'll be right back.

23:35Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe, this thing weighs a ton. Dursky, lift with your legs, man. Santa, Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not, sir. Of course he did, right Santa? You know, my elf Drewski here, he handles the nice list. An elf? I'm 6 '3". What everyone wants is iPhone 17. And at T-Mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus? I'm Mrs. Claus' much younger sister. And at T-Mobile, there's no trade-in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone. Or give it as a gift.

24:08And the best part? You can make the switch to T-Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes. Nice. My side of the tree is slipping. Timber! The holidays are better at T-Mobile. Switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trading needed. With 24 monthly bill credits for well-qualified customers plus tax and$35 device connection charge. Credits end and balance due if you pay off earlier canceled. Finance agreement, 256 gigs,$830. Eligible port in a new line,$100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Check out in 15 minutes or less per line. Visit T-Mobile.com.

24:36Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe, this thing weighs a ton. Drewski, lift with your legs, man. Santa, Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not that. Of course he did. Right, Santa? You know, my elf Drewski here, he handles the nice list. An elf? I'm 6 '3". What everyone wants is iPhone 17. And at T-Mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus? Ahem. I'm Mrs. Claus' much younger sister. And at T-Mobile, there's no trade-in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone. Or give it as a gift.

25:08And the best part, you can make the switch to T-Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes. Nice. My side of the tree is slipping. The holidays are better at T-Mobile. Switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade-in needed. With 24 monthly bill credits for well-qualified customers plus tax and$35 device connection charge. Credits end and balanced due if you pay off earlier. Cancel finance agreement, 256 gigs,$830. Eligible port in a new line,$100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Check out in 15 minutes or less per line. Visit T-Mobile.com. All right, we're back.

25:37Last week was a shockingly busy week for devices. not just last week but like this time of year is usually quiet weirdly it's really busy summer yeah we had to review all the all the new apple stuff and then last week we had two new pixel products the pixel fold and the tablet and just yesterday hopefully maybe we published the zenphone 10 review yeah we definitely didn't never mind but should i read well i have thoughts on it well that review may be later but hey the pod people get a little bonus because it'll be earlier on the pod that's true yeah that's true so what do you want to do first yeah so uh what do you want to do first i mean i guess the pixel tablet we can do first okay simple one uh the pixel tablet the review is out it's uh it's about what we thought you know no real dramatic surprises here it's an android tablet it's a 599 499 tablet that comes with the dock in the box and the dock is like this magnetic speaker dock which has pins and you just pop it on there and it becomes like home hub you pop it off and it's a tablet cool my main uh discovery when actually using it for a while was the speaker dock is not that great yeah it's fine like the speakers themselves on the tablet are really completely lacking any bass yeah they're very tinny so when you pop it onto the tablet dock it actually sounds much better because you get like all this space because it's a much larger driver but it doesn't actually get that much louder and so when i compare it to like the 229 obviously it's pricey for a home speaker but it's it's cheaper than the tablet when i compare it to that nest hub max speaker the nest hub max is much louder and has better mics from far away and can be a security camera which the tablet can't and is on 24 7 but you can't pop it off and use it as a tablet.

27:27So, you know, it kind of exists at the top of the home hub lineup, but at the bottom of the tablet lineup, I'm curious if you have thoughts on it, but I thought it was all right. I think the Nest Hub Max has better audio though, right? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, like a lot better speakers. Yeah, definitely. So you're really paying like almost actually more than double to have the tablet. For the ability to pop it off and use it as a tablet anywhere. Yeah, that's sort of the weird sort of thing with this product is that if you remove the separate, like you can buy another speaker dock separately for$130.

27:59If you removed the whole speaker dock thing from it and you were like, oh, this is a$270 pretty good Pixel tablet. You'd be like, this is a really good price for an Android tablet. It's running a Tensor chip. It's like pretty good, like very good price for a tablet. But in my head, and I think this is how Google is marketing this thing. It is a, well, I guess they're marketing as the Pixel tablet. but I see it as a home hub that you normally use as a home hub that every now and then you're like I want to watch Netflix on the couch every now and then you're like I need to move the ingredients for this recipe over to the other side of the kitchen so you move it over there and I don't think Google really wants you to take it on the road that often they just sort of like added a USB-C port so that if you did that you technically could do you think they should have done it the other way around like right now the only way you can buy this tablet is as a 500 bundle with the dock do you think they should have sold it as a 300 tablet without the dock i think that i would find that easier to recommend i think the dock being 130 is ridiculously expensive especially considering the speakers aren't good if the speakers were okay and here was another thing too there's a story that went out that said google removed the wi-fi chip in the dock they originally were going to put its own chip in the dock so that it could be a separate smart speaker which makes a lot of sense if you have been nice because you can buy these separately right so if you could have these just like they're basically home speakers just sitting around your house and even if you didn't have a pixel tablet on it you could be playing music from it you could be using them as assistance 130 bucks for a smart audio speaker is about what a smart audio speaker of that quality costs you know like a nest audio is like what like a hundred dollars not even yeah i think they're like a hundred dollars they have good audio so if you if you could basically buy a nest audio that you could also pop a tablet onto to charge and use as an interface talking about the little one or this one the nest audio that one yeah how much is a hundred dollars hundred dollars yeah for 130 like that's okay but the fact that it's a 130 for a thing that is a brick it's a brick when there's no tablet when there's no tablet on it yep it's like why would you buy extra of these like you're just gonna have things plugged in that do literally nothing unless you figure that oh maybe i'll move the tablet over here's a here's some other context uh-huh for the same money you could buy a nest hub for one room and a nest hub max for another room and still have money left over yeah because the nest hub is 100 bucks and the nest hub max is 230 bucks.

30:36So that's 330 bucks. Better audio on the Max. Matter of fact, toss in another Nest Hub. That's 330 bucks. You're still under. Wow. 430 bucks. So you have a Nest Hub in the bedroom, a Nest Hub in the living room, and a Nest Hub Max in the kitchen. Or you could put a Nest Audio somewhere. Yeah, exactly. And you're still spent less than this tablet with the OneDoc. That's crazy. So it's like, it feels like because it's a tablet, it's a really good price. Yeah. But it is, it is very interestingly placed. Yeah, I have a question about that. Yeah. So you know how sometimes like, people will release a product and they can charge whatever they want because it's like the only thing of that product is this one of those moments where because there's nothing that's a one-to-one it's the same i don't think just charge whatever they wanted i don't think that people want android tablets badly enough that they can charge whatever they want for this you know the only thing that could convince me yes is there was that moment on stage at google i o where they sort of teased it at first and they showed the tablet and they showed it clicking onto the dock and everyone went, oh, that's cool.

31:33Including Andrew and me. And it is the only one that does exactly that. And so if you do picture yourself using that particular feature a lot, then there is no comparison. This is the only one you can get. So then follow-up question, how long does that remain true? How long before Lenovo makes one? Lenovo has already been making this kind of thing. It's not exactly the same. But one that just pops off of a speaker? Yes. interesting they made one like years ago in like 2018. google's is like okay you use the google home app and you use all google services so you get the google one yeah that makes like the most sense yeah i mean as of right now the way my tablet lives in my house is it's on a folio case it's in a folio case all the time and it's just like plugged in permanently it's not even plugged in it just like wanders around the kitchen and eventually gets plugged in when it's about to die yeah yeah yeah almost the same thing yeah and the speakers are loud enough that it's actually the same yeah yeah so it's it's just weird because they marketed it as pixel tablet but that's not in my head what this product is it's a nest hub large with worse yeah with worse audio that can also become a tablet yeah they should have called it nest hub tablet nest hub next hub go or nest hub tab nest hub nest hub tab go ultra tablet if it had better specs you could call it ultra i don't know yeah it's just because it's the biggest screen yeah it's a yeah but it's 60 hertz it's uh the display's fine yeah it's fine yeah it's definitively fine bad off-axis viewing angles but whatever there was a little bit of questions for me and this can kind of bring us into the pixel fold of the the tablet app experience yeah because this has been a thing we've talked about every single time there's a pixel any any android tablet at all is oh well are the apps going to be better yeah and there's always like a small handful of apps where you're really impressed and then the rest of the apps you're like oh no it's not better at all um and things like you know instagram and twitter aren't exactly great on the ipad either but you can keep going down the list and like youtube studio is not optimized on the tablet um a lot of my uh mobile apps that are on the inside screen of the pixel fold like uh my golf app is not optimized it's just a a lot of apps still aren't great on the tablet yeah so that's still a thing the new weather app is awesome yeah google made a right they did make a brand new weather solid yeah i'll give them that but i think they made that specifically for you yeah i always talk about weather apps so maybe they're listening but we can talk about the pixel fold because this has been in my pocket for uh what almost two weeks now yeah and uh the review of it is also out and uh it's a weird phone that i kind of actually like a lot but i realize i won't be recommending to most people also fun fact uh i played a beach tournament over this past weekend and this this phone was in my bag at the beach for three straight days and it somehow hasn't died i actually didn't put it in a ziploc or anything yeah i know there's got to be some sand in here it's like a ticking time bomb ron amadeo over at ars technica yeah he literally only used this on his desk he He hadn't even moved it from his desk while he was writing about it.

34:50He should have taken it to the beach. I literally went to a beach for three days. He might have just gotten super unlucky. He gets unlucky very frequently with a lot of devices. But yeah, so the thing about this phone is that it folds completely flat. And can I see it really quickly? Yeah. When you open it, there's not really much space between the bezel and the screen. It's just kind of there. i thought the thing is that it doesn't fold completely flat it does fold completely flat it doesn't open completely yeah it doesn't quite open it opens to like 177 degrees yeah yeah so closed it is a flat sandwich with no air gap yeah oh i see i see yes it's nice and i do really like that i think the problem is they have this like screen protector that doesn't see the edges doesn't completely go to the bottom yeah which very much feels like a galaxy fold gen one remind you of anyone yeah because they had to add these before they sent out production units while they were like they had them in reverie's hands they didn't have these like caps in the top and bottom that kept dirt and debris from getting in and the fold um it's just raw oled underneath the screen protector yeah and raw oled is very dangerous and so i guess ron had like a piece of dirt or dust that got onto the little bezel part that is raw oled and because he when he closed it because there's like almost no space between the bezel and the actual screen you're just clapping sand directly into raw oled on his desk too right like man so you just have a desk you're just covered in sand yeah it's like i only use it on my desk but there's a lot of sand here i would say if you do buy this thing you should definitely get the like pixel protection for it yeah because yeah here's what i'll say uh clearly google was very protective they it seems like they sent out a lot less of these phones for review like they are being very cautious with it um i felt like i was reasonably normal with mine like i have some nicks on the top i have some nicks on the bottom i took it to a beach yeah the camera area looks kind of scarred up a little it's a little scarred up yeah i really used it yeah and my conclusion at the end of the day was this is the best folding phone to use while closed yeah i use this phone closed all the time like normal and i really only open it once in a while when i go you know what i've got 15 new emails yeah i've got some time to burn let's get into it and then i would open the phone and i feel like a productivity monster and i would do that for a while and i close it and use like a normal phone again yeah it's the best at that yeah it's like really what this phone is most awesome at my least favorite thing about this phone is you cannot have a different layout on your home screen on the inside and the outside yeah yeah so just for our listeners for who are a little confused about what i mean every other folding phone i think every other folding phone yeah the outside home screen is one setup is one phone and then the inside when you open it up to your inside screen you can set up a completely different phone you can have a different wallpaper You can have a different set of apps and widgets.

37:56So on your outside screen, maybe it's a little cramped. You might have your texting app, maybe your Google Maps, a couple things you access really quickly just on one home screen. But then you open up on the inside. Whoa. But then you open it up on the inside. It's hard to open, guys. It is hard to open. And you end up with a whole bunch more space. So you do like two or three widgets and your games and your apps that you use all the time. on this one whatever you do on the inside screen will immediately be reflected on the outside yeah if you have three home screens on the outside screen when you open it up you'll have the exact same three on the inside screen and you can't have them different i will say that i like that if you're using an app on the outside screen and you open the phone it's immediately in that app i like that um but i think that google did some like tweaks to android for large screen devices and folding devices to make it so that when you have it open it kind of sees it as like two displays right because you can't when you have it open on the inside screen it kind of like artificially sets like if you home screen yeah if you had if you had the home screen on your folded on the phone folded and you swiped to your second display that second display is the right side of the inner screen yeah so screen one on the left screen two on the right and the only thing that spans is the google like search bar yep actually weirdly that's the only thing like you can't like you can't place widgets in the center.

39:21Yeah. Yeah. I hate it. And I think they did that. This was the biggest problem with the Microsoft Surface Duo, by the way, is that the Microsoft Surface Duo didn't see itself like that. So when you had it open, it thought it was just one big display. Yeah. So when you would span apps, it wouldn't split them. It would just like have missing text in the center. It could have missing pixels. Yeah. So I think they intentionally did it. So they were like, okay, this is screen one. This is a virtual screen two. And when you have it open, let's just blend them uh but again like you said like the problem with that is that you can't like have different setups and like different orientations of screens you would have a different type of setup yeah it just feels a little a little weird that that would like it's an android phone i feel like the if there was a folding iphone of course they would do that yeah i figured the google one would let me change yeah there should be at least be a setting for it and that's something they could probably update yeah they could probably update that yeah it is i will say the the form factor of using it closed is amazing.

40:21It's more Find N2-esque, which please, Oppo, please, for the love of God, make a global version of that phone because the bands in the US don't support it. You like it better? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I might need to try it. It's really smooth. It's smoother on this phone than any other Tensors G2 phone. I did think that was weird. That is weird. It's the smoothest 120 hertz Google Pixel phone ever. Do you like it better than the Fold? Than the Galaxy Fold? The Galaxy Fold, yeah. Yes. Yeah, I hate the form factor of the Galaxy Fold. And that's because the fold is kind of still awkward to use while closed.

40:50Too narrow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I mean, the hardware is really good. Well, yeah. Yeah? It's$1 ,800. Yeah. So is Samsung's. That's true. But Samsung has a better inside screen, has thinner bezels, which does mean you need a weird hole punch or under display selfie camera. Well, but they had thin bezels before they added the under display selfie camera. Also true. They could have done a hole punch. but samsung has better inside display samsung has bigger battery and better battery life and faster charging and the cameras are about on par does it have a better software experience would you say no pixel is better pixel's got the software for sure yeah so yeah that's kind of tit for tat there yeah yeah yeah uh 30 watt charging right 30 watt max but it's wireless charging pretty poor battery life yeah that's a bummer i've read other reviews that didn't mentioned their battery life was as bad as mine but i've continued to use this phone and continued to have subpar battery life yeah i read ellison's review on the verge and she said that the benefit of using it closed all the time which she also said it you feel like you can use it closed all the time yep is that you'll get a little bit better battery life but i didn't really she didn't really seem to go into detail about the overall battery life so that logic tracks perfectly from my experience i am using mostly the outside screen yeah and my battery life is subpar therefore if i use the inside screen more i would have even worse battery life that's my angle yeah that's unfortunate tough yeah yeah anyway for you fold uh pixel fold people out there you should be the first wave of people should be the receiving them um today which is wednesday yeah uh so let us know tweet at us about your experience we'd love to know more people's experience about this thing i like the phone uh second gen one hopefully will be amazing android 14 update coming soon as well yes uh let's talk about the zenphone 10 real quick before another break i i do have some thoughts i mean we so the zenphone 9 last year amazing i love this phone epic this phone uh i gave it some awards i'm pretty sure i gave it the best small phone and maybe the most improved or something else yeah probably most i really liked it an awesome software experience super smooth 120 hertz they put the latest snapdragon chip it had amazing battery life and very impressive cameras yes like across the board it was small it had a fast fingerprint reader and it was 699 it was a really well-priced phone it was the most recent it was the um the snapdragon 8 gen 1 plus right which means it had it had the best tsmc so really good battery life and after that phone came out i was like yeah they they basically made the perfect phone it doesn't have wireless charging but like i don't know the only thing really bad about it is that back coating got so really gross worn so fast yeah uh so then when i got the email about a zenphone 10 coming out this year i was like oh right i forgot about that what are they going to do with this phone this year and it showed up and i i like put it on a wireless charger jokingly like i bet they didn't add wireless charging and it lit up and it started charging and i was like whoa wait a second i remember this moment they did i saw this happen oh my god yeah and they did also change the coding on the back of the phone now i haven't been able to daily it as much yet because i've been doing the pixel folder view so i'm about to switch to it and we'll see how much it starts to wear but i suspect they changed it to make it better and hopefully not wear as fast which if that's true yeah they did everything yeah they basically made the and it's so it's like is this one also 699 it It is, I gotta double check, but I don't think, yeah, it's the same price as last year.

44:27That is insane. Yeah. I don't know how they pulled this off. I love it. It's basically like the iPhone mini for Android users. It's got like the max specs, but it's got better battery life than the iPhone mini by far. It is dramatically better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like. So good. Yeah. I don't know. If you only buy your phones at carrier stores, you can't get this, I don't think. So like buy it online, but I think B &H sells this phone. But Asus is pretty underrated. I think their camera experience is really good because they don't lean super hard into computational photography. So they have more contrast than a lot of manufacturers because they don't go super hard on the HDR.

45:05Yeah, keep it simple. And I think that's a good look. And they generally score very high in the blind smartphone camera test. This is true. Whenever we do the blind tests, it kind of has a pixely look in a way. And I think people don't really expect that. and it's actually kind of confirmed to be an asus thing because the rog gaming phones also which you're like it's a gaming phone who would ever think it's good but hey asus is getting really good hardware or software i will say one more thing um what was i gonna say they count with new colors oh yeah there there is there's a nice there's a nice green there's a nice blue there's the orange from last year there's a white and there's a black and the red is like brighter yeah the the orange red it's more red i guess you're right yeah i'd say red yeah it's brighter yeah um what was i gonna say what was i gonna say what was i gonna say well marquez is struggling i'll just say uh last year when the zenphone 9 came to our office you know we're we're all seasoned vets here we see a lot of phones so it takes a lot to impress us but i remember when the zenphone 9 showed up it was one of those things where marquez took out of the box and like the whole studio was swarmed him like what's that oh that looks new that's different oh i like the way this feels i've always loved the zen phones because they made the first phone i think the zen phone seven or maybe the sit no it was the six i think it had the flippy camera yeah it had this camera that like it was facing the back but then if you press the button it would flip around it was really cool yeah yeah oh i never remembered what i was gonna say so that's i'll hopefully it'll hit me again later remember that at lunch yeah but the zenphone 10 i am uh i'm very happy that yeah the things that they uh should do 699 is legit insane pricing like it's so oh that's what i was gonna say the uh let's go so so if asus if i was to like make my own phone asus did something that i think i would also do which is in the setup process when you first get the phone yeah you go through like sign into your email sign up wi-fi or whatever yeah and then you literally have a menu where it's like do you want pure stock android or do you want our like oh yeah yeah and you get to i don't even if i don't think they even call that anymore it's just like asus optimized oh and it has a couple new fonts a couple new icons a couple extra features and you can just choose you go through like four or five panels where it's like home screen set up to what do you want stock or asus yeah all right launcher what do you want stock that's cool and the whole thing and quick settings what do you want and so you go through and you set up the phone and so right off the box you're already that's awesome customizing it like a true android that's awesome should be it's it's they did that because i think when the rog phone three came out um i remember people were not super happy with the gaming the insanely hardcore gaming ui that the rog phone had in the one and the two so when the three came out i remember they made it a big deal they were like we're letting you like use stock android on this if you want so you get the like gaming prowess and all the features of the gaming phone but you don't have to use the like rog vaults with like all the hard game mode yeah yeah yeah i love it yeah and then they ported that to the zenphone on like the zenphone 6 or something and everyone was like this is the best thing ever yeah they're still doing it and it's like broken down into like sections of the phone that's awesome yeah didn't used to be that way so that's cool shout out to asus shout out to asus i'll test there's no surprises where it's like oh it turns out the battery life is trash now like i hope there's nothing like that but i have a pretty hard time believing i'm gonna find anything like that yeah it was great battery life last year especially for a tiny phone so that's that cool um let's take another quick break but we should of course do one more trivia question this is new light colors from last no this is the same as last week okay i think trivia maybe pink trivia yeah i like it's sparkly it's fun magenta yeah anyway fun fact guys wwdc wasn't always called wwdc really the first one in 1983 was called a macintosh developers world gathering the mdwg b the apple independent software developers conference or ais dc c the santa clara developers symposium scds or d the Global Electronic Information Coders Open House or the GE ICO?

49:42Geico. The Geico. The Geico. I want it to be that one. It can't be, but I want it to be. That would be so funny. Could it? Oh, man. It could be. I don't know. LS questions are often tricky. LS questions are the one that leave you staring at your bedroom ceiling at night. Yeah. Yeah, this is interesting. because I don't know the answer. I was going to say Macworld. Cool. Well, with that, we shall take a break. Be right back.

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51:20Support for Waveform comes from Wealthfront. It's time your hard-earned money works harder for you. With Wealthfront's cash account, you can earn a 3.5 % APY on your uninvested cash from program banks with no minimum balance or account fees. Plus, you get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, so your money is always accessible when you need it. No matter your goals, Wealthfront gives you flexibility and security. Right now, open your first cash account with a$500 deposit and get a$50 bonus at Wealthfront.com slash wave. That's wealthfront.com slash wave. Bonus terms and conditions apply.

51:58Cash account is offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC. Member FINRA slash SIPC. Not a bank. The annual percentage yield on deposits as of November 7th, 2025 is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum. Funds are swept into program banks where they earn variable APY. All right. Welcome back. Let's talk about EVs. Welcome to the Waveform podcast. WayEVform. the EV section. Yes. There's really only one piece of news that matters in the EV world in the past couple weeks because it's been happening over and over and over again. Every day. As dominoes continue to fall and hit each other and knock over other dominoes and more dominoes will continue to fall in the future.

52:37Probably between by the time we record this and this comes out there will be another domino. Definitely. But the news is there are two basically competing charging standards in North America for electric cars. There is Tesla's port which you've all seen on teslas it's called nacs north american charging standard and then there's the other one ccs i mean there's some others that you've probably seen in some other cars but ccs is the other big one for fast charging and that's the one that you see for public charging and every other ev that's not a tesla and we've we've talked at length about this and how there is a big difference between the quality and availability and uptime and reliability and ease of use of the Tesla supercharger network and every other public charger network so the news is all these EV manufacturers are slowly actually pulling the trigger on signing a deal to have their cars use Tesla's supercharger network yeah and that includes them starting to ship cars with Tesla's NACS port yeah in 2025 amazing and giving them access to thousands and thousands of superchargers not just the like seven that we have with the magic doc yeah but actual like native hopefully maximum fast charging yeah and that is a big deal so that started i guess maybe it was last week uh with ford signing a deal they did this whole event on i guess it was a twitter space twitter space i think it was two weeks ago probably something like that yeah i think shortly thereafter gm announces that they're also going to do it so when ford does it you're like wow f-150 lightning and Mustang Mach-E just got better.

54:17Then GM does it and you're like, oh, wow. So now the Hummer EV is in there too. The Cadillac Lyric, whatever other GM stuff is under there. Still not as many cars as there are. Not a ton, but like, hey, that's two big companies that are actually going to do this. That's cool. And then more Domino's fall and more Domino's fall. So now what do we have? We got Rivian. We got Rivian saying they'll move over. So R1T and R1S. And then R2. And I believe R2, when that platform launches, that's going straight to NECS. Oh, yeah. straight to tesla's port so that's cool you got volvo volvo's moving over and volvo owns pole star so that means pole stars are going to be moving over probably they haven't said it yet but i'm sure they will logically it checks out yeah um we word on the street is hyundai is thinking about it yeah probably been evaluating um which i wouldn't be shocked if that domino fell and that also meant ionic 5 ionic 6 all of the ev6s all of those those all fall and those all get better in 2025 like that is a lot of shake-up in the world of north american ev plug charging standards yeah it's great there's a couple funny things about this one it's just funny that of course tesla called it north american charging standard when it was literally just their they were forecasting and ccs stands for combined charging system um so it's funny that it's becoming the standard another funny thing they just started rolling out the magic docs which allows any CS to like port over to CCS and that's going to be potentially irrelevant if every single car starts using it's good for everyone who's already bought an electric car with CCS yeah totally you know the Rivian I have now all the other cars that are out now those will be fine to use on a couple of chargers yeah this is not work the other funny thing is that uh Tesla's in Europe have to legally use CCS they all use CCS this is why I always practice this by saying this is a very North American thing we're talking about because in Europe it's like oh we've all already had this we've all had ccs for a long time yeah yeah yeah so um there was a video by who's that guy that makes like two hour videos on blenders technology connections technology connections yeah my favorite channel yeah he made it he made a video because he his friend bought an ionic 5 and he was like this is an opportunity for me to make like three video three two hour videos about electric cars okay um so he made a video about nacs versus ccs kind of and like all the technology behind it and you just see like the size of the cabling and like the ports and everything and it's just hilarious how much smaller and like more efficient tesla is able to be it really is um so that port is just way better so i feel like if people like people moving over to it is both going to be like we did a road trip right and i had a terrible experience in the because of the ecosystem of chargers um and now it's like if you can you can basically buy any electric car you want the biggest problem that the biggest reason that it felt bad to recommend anything but a tesla was if you drive more than 250 miles on any given day you're gonna have a bad time any road trip yeah yeah and i made that video on the autofocus channel about how electric cars are really hard to recommend not because the cars aren't good the cars have gotten really good to the point where like many could argue tesla doesn't make the best electric cars but they are by far the best selling because the infrastructure yeah availability of these easy to use chargers is so dramatically better for them and so yeah this this news is a win for everyone i believe yeah it's a win obviously for tesla because not only are they going to get a bunch of licensing money but i believe they get a bunch of government money because now they're eligible because hey we make chargers for everyone so that's huge for tesla it's huge for all of us because if we are going to buy an ev we want better charging infrastructure and we all just got it and all the car companies who make evs who to themselves are saying we make a better car than tesla yeah but the only reason they don't buy ours is because tesla has a charging network yeah well guess what now we have a lot of the charging network available to us so maybe they'll buy more of our good cars yeah so it's great too i mean we'll probably see some sort of a down the line effect of like how many overcrowded chargers are there going to be yeah how many people are going to sign up and and not be able to actually charge on them who knows but i just feel like it's it's a win at the surface yeah so some good news too is that charge point ever charge and sk signet there may be even more but they're the these third party chargers like brandon and i when we were doing the cv road trip with the mucky we probably stopped at seven different brands of third-party car chargers on the road which is crazy the amount of third parties that there are that do electric car charging is crazy none of them care about uptime it seems like um maybe they will now but a bunch of them are starting to also say either we're fully switching over to nacs now or we're also going to offer nacs that's cool uh which is really cool so you're gonna have third parties too which is good because if you have a million cars but only a hundred gas stations that's a big problem you know it's like tesla's supercharger network is the biggest in the nation by far but you already have problems with there being too many teslas and not enough stalls and now there's about to be f-150 lightnings and and whatever else is out there all different different sizes and types of vehicles yeah which was already a question mark with the magic dock but yeah that That remains a thing to be solved in the future.

59:44Question that. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it for sure. And Washington and Texas are now, if they give you funding for EV infrastructure, you have to offer an ACS now. They just made that a law. Nice. So that's like the USB-C iPhone rule. Yeah. It kind of feels like you didn't have to mandate the port, but all right, I guess that's where we're going. Makes sense. You know what this all reminds me of? there's been more and more cyber truck sightings i think it's actually coming out this year is that an insane take i think it's actually coming out you want to bet i think we should i think we should make you want to go you want to bet right now in the podcast it is not coming out this year okay this is a great bet because we're like halfway through the year we got six months yeah i've just noticed like them obviously they're they're they've been working on it testing it whatever but suddenly there's like dozens of them there's like mules there's camouflage ones they're testing like finished ones and well not finished but dramatically different from what they showed us because i remember when i was at the impressions event however many years ago that was like 2019 yeah it was it was at least two three years ago and wow that was four years ago uh i rode in one it was very different the front was just like a marble shelf that looked ridiculous it was a three-seater in the front and the back it was a very different looking interior and the ones that are rolling around now have a real side view mirror have a real windshield wiper have different looking lights have i believe removed some of the features like the the the deck lid that goes all the way to the bottom when you open the trunk so i i don't know all the details but it's just a very different looking truck that clearly they've done work on and now they're sort of testing it and uh just with enough frequency i feel like it's ramping up at the same rate where i don't know i feel like they could probably ship them in like six months i would bet against that okay so your answer is no so so the bet is just so we can codify it yeah well the first cyber truck deliveries to real customers happen before or after december 31st 2023 i also want to clarify what are we qualifying as deliveries is it like one or three so or like a thousand remember what they did with with uh plaid yes where they had a delivery event and the first 25 cars that's exactly what i what i mean like if it does that count if they do that if those people are not tesla employees that counts so if they release 25 of these it counts yes because they're gonna keep shipping them more the next year i think that counts but especially if they have like a delivery event in november and then they start shipping them in december and there's like like real cyber trucks on the road that to me would count i think that counts yeah i how much did they say this was originally gonna start at 40 um yeah well back in the day when they made their promises i think it was like anywhere from 35 40 to like 75 85 something crazy there's a huge because there's a single motor dual motor triple motor versions there was different battery sizes there's all kinds of things that they promised they said it starts at 39 900 so 40 um my additional prediction is that will not happen oh no yeah they're gonna start with the most expensive triple motor variant for sure no but i don't think it will ever sell for 40 um yeah that's also probably a good bet yeah i think they're gonna pull a rivian and jack up the price by 20 grand i mean this happened with the model 3 right they promised that they're going to make several different versions and they start with the most expensive highest margin version and work their way down and whether they get to the bottom or not who knows but the price of the model 3 has fluctuated like in real time like depending on the week but i feel like the cyber truck will never they won't even they will they'll just be like we had to jack the price by 20 grand like rivian did like that's exactly what we've done 20 grand the fit so i'm gonna cheapest one would be i think the cheapest one of this is gonna be like 55 or 60 yeah i could say yeah i agree they said they could make it cheaper because it's like a solid piece of metal that they don't have to sculpt and whatever and that's why it's all jagged but i don't think that i don't think it's gonna make it cheaper they added like seven years of development with this thing that they have to make up the r &d costs for a lot they also do have an absurd number of pre-orders though i don't know how many people are actually going to follow through with them it was like like 100 bucks to get in line or something like that so still is you can order right now i just yeah a lot of people are in line okay so if 25 of these come out this year that counts should we set a number is 25 i think 25 is a 25 is a fair number okay i'm still saying no you're saying yes i'm saying they will david i'm saying no ellis absolutely not marquez stands alone an optimist have you seen that uh that tom scott video where he goes to the the building in texas and it's like like a scam, like the building.