Why the Vision Pro Rules with Hugo Barra

33:09An Apple Vision Pro is$3 ,500. An Apple Vision Air or whatever is somewhere down the road, which has a certain different feature set that enables it to be cheaper. Maybe it doesn't do the wireless stuff as well, but you can plug it right into your Mac. And they still have the tether in it. Everyone's used to the tether. I think getting that headset to$1 ,500 without getting rid of the compute is going to be a really tall challenge. What do you think is, okay, If you were to start now chopping things out of Vision Pro to get to the magical$1 ,500 headset, what do you get rid of right off the bat?

33:43I feel like you have to get rid of the eyesight with today's tech. Yeah. I think, yeah, eyesight, I don't know how much that weighs, but it is a bit of dead weight. You might argue, I think their depth camera, not the lighter, but the other camera. True depth. The true depth camera, which I think they only use for the personal enrollment. It might be another thing you can get rid of. Use your iPhone to enroll. Just chop that off altogether. Yeah. I think they can probably use four or five tracking cameras instead of six. I have to think about your mouth because that's almost exclusively why you have the cameras facing down.

34:25Anyway. But I think so then the next thing I would move out is the M2 chip and that whole thing. thing yeah the last thing to go would probably be the r1 chip and everything around it because of because that's when you really are there it needs to be there because it's a sensor right right i wanted to drill down into that a little bit further into the plugging in paradigm because apple specifically see it seems like they want this to feel like it's computer don't need your macbook anymore you don't need it you know it's it's it's a whole thing it has an m2 chip in it It's just as powerful as a MacBook Air.

35:00Yeah. So it's a weird paradigm, right? Because they're basically selling it as a whole separate computer, but they're also selling it as a headset, which we don't traditionally see as a computer. Yeah. And I know that Oculus, you know, they have a standalone chip inside of it, too, but you're not doing you're not like running a browser on that generally, you know, but Apple has Safari in there. They've got iMessage in there and all of these different apps. do you see a point in time where they, I know that you said that they were going to like remove it and switch to plug. Could they feasibly do that, you know, and have like a cheaper one that doesn't have its own computer and is powered by a separate computer?

35:42You could sell this as an accessory, right? This is essentially an iPad Pro in a box, you know, probably with some additional co-processing capability. Maybe not even because if you want to make it pluggable into an iPad, you're going to have to move that into the iPad anyway, right? So this is like you could literally sell the computer as an option that turns your headset into a fully enclosed spatial computer that gives you the equivalent of an iPad Pro in terms of compute capabilities and power and so on and so forth. And I think that's a very viable computer to have with you. It's like a Mac Mini in a way.

36:21And we're very close to it. It doesn't have a screen. We're very close to this being a special iPad Pro that's very usable and suitable for a lot of different tasks. Forget the price, right? But as far as job to do, I think we're very close. We're maybe two software updates away plus filling in the app store gap from being there, which is very exciting. Yeah. Could we get rid of the speakers and have consumers be happy? You have to use AirPods. You have to use something else. But that just feels like in 99 % of other electronic times we're using devices, we're using not the speakers on the device.

36:58But it seems like VR headsets, I don't know a lot of people that feel that way, that wear specifically headphones when they're doing VR. Yeah, I think you probably don't need to because I don't think it necessarily buys you that much in terms of weight reduction and cost reduction. And I think it does take away from that sort of magical put it on and you're good to go kind of thing. So that probably would rank a lot lower in my priority list. Oh, I have very existential questions that are future out. I don't know if you want to jump into those right off the bat. I could pitch one if you want. Sure, go for it.

37:32Okay, so I remember when I was reporting on Oculus stuff way back in the day, and they, I think, acquired... What company did they acquire? It was some VR 360 storytelling company, and they basically made a couple of movies that you could watch in VR and it was like immersive because it would be all around you and you had to do all this stuff. Where do you see the, like, do things like that actually pull users in and make it a paradigm that people want to use? Because I always thought when I was reporting on that, I was like, it's a cool little experience, but just like this launched with the Alicia Keys experience and I'm sure that they'll launch.

38:15Yeah, and it's amazing, right? It's amazing, but it's sort of like a demo of what the headset is good for in general. Do you think that Apple investing in more of those kind of experiences is something that would actually get people to buy the headset? Because with the Oculus thing, it was a cool couple of movies, but it didn't feel like someone was going to buy an Oculus to watch these movies because not that many of them are going to be produced. Yeah. And then, you know, how many times are you going to want to watch that same movie again? Right. Right. So you almost need like an infinite. That was part of the appeal, but it was also something that would get old kind of fast.

38:53Yeah. I don't know. I've watched the Alicia Keys video like 12 times now. Really? It's great. No, no. But yeah, that's, that's, it reminds me of the 3D phase. We did the whole 3D thing for a while. Or even when the red hydrogen came out and it was like, look at this amazing video on the red hydrogen. and it would look pretty cool and then you'd be done and be like okay what else it's a tech demo that's it yeah it's over it's a party trick yeah i think that's something mark zuckerberg talked a lot about which is they have invested so much in not just games but also content library and just partnerships in general for things for people to do in quest yeah and that's a big part of why quest is pretty good but to me that still feels like a way for trying to get people to stick around but but not necessarily the reason people show up.

39:41You know what I mean? Yeah. So, boy, do I have a lot to say. Yeah. So first of all, and this is a bit of a hot take, I don't think, this is not exactly what you asked, but it's background. Okay, I like background. I don't think that rectilinear video watching in VR is a thing that retains. We've tested it extensively, and it's really cool. But over time, you're like, I know, I'm just gonna watch it on the TV, or on my phone, or on my iPad, and so on. So rectilinear video, which is rectangular, whether it's 3D or not, I don't think is a major appeal. I mean, you don't create a device as sophisticated as just for people to watch TV in it.

40:19So then you go into the immersive video format, which is what you're talking about. Yes, which is incredible, but it's also like, is this the reason to buy the device? So there's three things that I can think of, all of which my guess is that Apple will experiment with. The first one is storytelling, and it's TV shows, right? Because the magic with TV shows is that if you're into it, there's like seasons and seasons and seasons that you can keep making, kind of exploring the same characters and so on and so forth. I think dramatic storytelling in immersive format is going to be difficult to do.

40:53And you talk about this in one of the Waveform podcasts early on about sort of how storytelling in 360 was so much harder, and I agree with all of that. so yes they'll experiment but I just don't see it being that good from like a cinema and artistic perspective the the two things that I am excited about one is music which I think proven by the Alicia Keys sort of intimate studio concert and I think there's a lot to do there and the other one is sports and especially live sports I need that I need that that's the one that's the number one thing i cannot wait to actually get to use in this thing and so many people have told me i'm wrong on this and you know time will tell but i could not be more convinced that uh the the biggest thing that vr will change or i should say the big thing that vr will change first is not gaming it's not productivity it's spectator sports and i was personally involved in shooting that Oculus Go, Adam Levine, Jonah Hill, like courtside at the NBA ad from a long time ago.

42:04Of course, we couldn't deliver all that product experience. That's a different thing. But it really, really, really transforms the experience of watching sports. And it's so complicated technically and artistically. Technically, because you have to figure out a way to do like 8K live broadcast, which is super complicated. You know, you guys know a lot more about this than I do. And artistically, because each sport is different, like where do you put the camera, where do you put the big screen, when do you change angles, how do you do replays, and so on and so forth. But I'm so convinced, just look at how much money people spend to go to a game.

42:37That's exactly what I was saying, yeah. There are infinite ways that I've thought of that I would like to participate in live sports in the Vision Pro. The one that came to mind, because there was that demo reel where I think there's a basketball game, and then there was a soccer one where you were above the net. That's not even a real seat you can buy. That's better than any seat you can buy, but you're above the net and you can see the play developing in front of you. And it's like, you know that there are people with disposable income spending$3 ,000 on a headset that would love to spend an extra hundred bucks to watch that game live from the best seat in the house.

43:12Like that's a real obvious opportunity. The other one that comes to mind is basketball, where if you're at a, I don't know, courtside seat, which is very expensive, you don't actually get the best view. but it is super cool because you get to see the size of the players and the coaches right in front of you and the ref runs past you and all this fun stuff yeah and i wish i don't know how technically difficult it actually is to execute on but i wish that there was a little rig right next to the scorers table that would let me sit there and look around as if i was sitting in that seat but it it's not a real thing yet and i just keep waiting for someone to pull it off well apple bought that company yeah it was a company called next vr 2020 uh these guys are absolute geniuses they've been doing this for you know a decade so they know the ins and outs of shooting in 180 3d uh including that dual 8k crazy format that they've just launched but also they've really invested into thinking about the broadcast pipeline because they want to get to live sports and like it's not even that hard to do something simple that already works even the center court seat you know basketball nba center court uh court side seat with a big ass projected tv just on top that shows the regular broadcast exactly man that's good enough for a lot of people you don't have to go much further yeah and then you go all the way to like the formula one craziness you guys talked about that in the pod as well like i mean that's just is a different world that requires a lot more production um so it's it's i think it's coming i am convinced that when Apple was negotiating its MLS rights and they got like the full package, they got it all.

44:49They were already thinking about this and people have been seeing cameras courtside in MLS games for a long time. There's a film coming. Question is how long until we can watch an MLS match live in immersive? That will make this purchase worth it for me. Just that. I think Apple could sell millions of headsets if they can nail live sports. I guess the benefit of that is that there's sports happening all the time. So it's not like you have to wait for Apple to develop a new movie with the storytelling and the shooting and the production. It's just like repetitive. I remember back when the HTC Vive was out and it was pretty new, Valve released, I don't know if you're privy to like Dota 2, the video game.

45:34Yeah, okay. So I played Dota for like 12 years. and um beta you like you like dota and valve because they uh worked so tightly with htc early on because steam vr and all that stuff they've always been into vr they released like a special dota 3d mode that you could spectate in where you could look at the map from above and kind of tilt the map or map around while the live pro match was happening amazing and you could like zoom in on the players moving around and stuff and i thought it was super cool but it didn't feel like a better way to watch the live game like it again sort of felt like that like tech demo party trick thing for me where i liked watching one game in it and then after that i was like i would rather watch this the regular way and this is not a real well real sport it's an esport very different from like people jumping in front of you but i wonder like it just makes me wonder whether or not that has that much appeal but then you guys say that it does so i guess i should just believe you um yeah i don't know i i guess that if if you could have a better watching experience every single week people would probably buy these even if they could just only use it to watch the live sport once a week i think the vision pro and any high quality vr heads can can be a single purpose device for a lot of different people live sports is one thing you know teleportation uh is another thing yeah you know an external monitor is another thing uh it just has to get it has to get good enough right for those things to be you know viable all right we're gonna take one more quick break but when we come back a lot more on how apple has been marketing and packaging vision pro

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48:52Because they kind of realized that the workspace thing wasn't really built out yet and the apps weren't coming. Yep. So a lot of their verbiage. You wrote about that in your blog post. Can you expand on that a little bit? Yeah, I call their marketing like 60-40, initially at least 60 % productivity, 40 % video. And I think that may have flipped if you look at some of the latest assets that they've put out and so on. And you're totally right. I think that Apple pulled a product marketing rabbit out of their hole, out of their hat, knowing how little they had for this launch they were already committed to it right developers didn't come so what do you do so you go all in on something that is magical and that demos really well which is video watching like watching uh 60 fps avatar in 3d it's 60 fps i think right yeah it's like some weird which is between 48 and 60 and 96 96 difference it's it's literally not the same frame rate throughout the movie it switches frame it switches frame i wonder what it's like if it's also like that i mean it must be right probably is it's dynamic it was it was a headache to watch in the theater i'll tell you that yeah yeah it's funny i think i could sense something but my eye was nowhere near as well trained as yours to like notice oh that's a frame rate because yeah when they would switch to like running scenes where it was moving fast it would switch to 60 fps and it felt like a video game cut scene i think it was 24 to 48 by the 24 to 48 okay which is what the hobbit was filmed in for the entire movie and the entire movie looked like a video game cut so they put high frame rate videos in apple tv plus you know and did all the things that they could to make this as appealing as it could be i just i just don't think it's going to sustain the product for very long yeah here's another a context question with apple vision pro what is the what is the ideal weight to to actually feel like you've successfully made something that people can wear for a long time because this is a notoriously heavy headset it's aluminum it has some plastic and glass it's around 600 grams right we've seen lighter headsets a lot of people reference to quest 3 the quest 3 happens to be around about 500 grams but if you could keep going down is there like a magical weight that you hit where you just feel like you can wear it forever like sunglasses and if so is that anywhere in because i think about like what tech is actually possible with what we have now is that actually possible with the tech we have to make a light enough headset that's still good but also light i think it is if you can get if you can work really hard on your sensors if you can move the compute and the battery off the headset okay work for a couple of generations i think you can you can break the 300 350 gram 350 kind of territory which yeah can i show my toy i would Yeah, please.

51:43Which, funny enough, is where Oculus started. This is an original Oculus DK1 from 2016, I believe. And this is just a display. It's nothing else. And it's 380 grams. You put this thing on, and it's a little bit strange. The foam is not exactly super comfortable and so on. But you feel, okay, like this is a like qualitative difference from wearing any of the headsets that exist today. So I think 350 grams is kind of where it starts to look really interesting. That's like about a smartphone weight, I think. Wait, let me Google that. iPhone 15 Pro Max weight. About 260, right? Yeah, I think. 220.

52:31Yeah. Okay. So like it's. So one and a half smartphones. Yeah. Now this is even lighter. What is the Matrix? What are you wearing now? And this is what some people call the Ready Player One headset. This is called the Big Screen Beyond. And to be clear, I have no affiliation with the company or anything. I just think they're badasses. This is 127 grams. Wow. Which is lighter than most ski goggles or many ski goggles. Yeah. It's half an iPhone 15 Pro Max. Yeah. That's lighter than most phones. Yeah. But that's just a screen and that's it? No. This is just a screen with a custom facial interface that's made for my face.

53:11And it's not like one of 28 that was chosen for me. It's actually custom printed for my face. And this is just a screen with, it's a micro OLED display like in the Vision Pro with a pancake lens like in the Vision Pro. It's a tethered headset, to be clear. It has no sensors, no pass through. So obviously it's a very different subclass of VR product. but what I like about this product and the fact that it exists is that it kind of shows us what sort of this desirable end state is. Like where do we think that this thing could ultimately go when all of the technologies that need to be invented are finally there?

53:45And this would be a beautiful future. Yeah, I made a video kind of talking about this collision course that we're on and it may not be a collision but on one side there's VR headsets with a ton of technology in them that way 500 grams and we're trying to make them smaller and smaller and lighter every year but on the other side is smart glasses and it's something you can wear today and look normal but you can't fit much tech in them so they're trying to fit more and more and more tech cameras sensors compute while keeping them the size of smart glasses and they're kind of just doing this they're going at each other this feels right about in the middle i don't know if you have a thought about which one might end up winning people over faster or which one could win.

54:28I tend to feel like smart glasses are more approachable to more people. They're also less tech, so they're more affordable. But what are your thoughts on that? I think there is a theoretical form factor right in the middle there, which is the ski goggles optical pass-through theoretical product. It's actually what a lot of the ready player one headsets look like they you know because you can see the person's eyes and their their optical past or their transparent displays that to me would be one of the most revolutionary form factors it's very unclear uh if you know one can build a wide fov you know transparent display that would be sort of you know all the good things that we need that was a pun i don't know if he was that on purpose it was very unclear that was good i you know these are great pun they just come up yeah so so that to me you know and that would be like a you know a 300 200 to 300 gram device ideally that's a beautiful thing i think the the optical pass through you know glasses form factor where there's an actual display that's more than just a notification screen i worry that product may never exist because it's just phenomenally difficult to build an actual display into such a small form factor where everything is so close to your eye and so on and so forth.

55:59So there's prototypes of that out there. I've seen some of them. Will that product exist in the next 10 to 15 years? I'm not sure if it will. Yeah, that feels like one of those sci-fi things that is hard to imagine with what we know about technology today. Yeah. Even though it seems really cool. As quickly as the headset and glasses things are approaching each other, it still feels like they're on their own track. Because especially with what Meta is doing with its AI assistants that you can have in your Meta Ray-Bans now, it's more about contextual awareness of your everyday life and not necessarily manipulating your everyday life.

56:39Whereas this is more focused on manipulating your everyday life, but obviously it's a giant headset. And so I'm sure that there's some sort of in between that, because they want to get those smaller meta wants to get those more powerful but like you said the the technology required just weight wise you can't have a pair of ray bands that have an m2 chip inside yeah you know so i i have a question around the sort of like developers build it and they will come mindset because that didn't happen in the vision pro yeah but it especially is not happening now i feel because when there was hype around the vision pro when it first came out we saw a lot of developers that were making Vision Pro apps as soon as they got their Vision Pro because they needed to understand the paradigm of how spatial computing worked better.

57:25But now it feels like it's been out for a while. People aren't talking about it every week anymore. And there was already way less developer hype than Apple assumed there would be. Now, how does Apple get people more excited about this device? And do you think that people are still going to be working on like stuff for it or is it going to take until a generation two to reignite developers to actually think maybe this is worth building for yeah i think the organic creating organic excitement is going to be very tough because as you said right the a lot of that wave of excitement of curiosity of interest in the product from consumers is starting to go away so I believe Apple will just have to use money they'll have to fund some of these startups you know some of these game developer studios you know and others plus you know do ambitious partnerships which require like executive level you know conversations and so on to really bring some of these new things to life you know it's not an it's not an unknown playbook in developer relations it's just one that I don't think Apple uses that often because they have such incredible market power yeah yeah um but i think it you know it's a rounding error to zero in sort of gonna have to open the old wallet and and then they gotta get final cut pro in 3d thank you yeah thank you like that just needs to exist i'm tired of mirroring from my mac and having one monitor i need spatial final cut yeah i'm just saying tim you can make it happen tomorrow if you wanted to uh no i also think it's also part of it is apple could have gone two different directions with like attracting people to this VR idea.

59:04One of them was super, super high end, amazing tech. The other, which is a little bit less Apple like is super, super accessible, available, cheaper. And I think they typically go with this before they go with that. So ideally drum up excitement. People get to experience this, which that's what they're doing that you can go to an Apple store today and experience the fun thing. But someday when there's a Apple Vision Pro SE, whatever, that's going to be another exciting moment for, okay, the developers have gotten the thing to the form factor, and now it'll start to be available for the masses.

59:38But that's TBD. We'll have to see. Yeah, and there was something really fun that I found very interesting in your blog post, kind of piggybacking off that, about how Apple over-engineered this thing on purpose. Can you expand on that idea a little bit? Yeah. So I think we all know that Vision Brew has just been under development for years and years at Apple. And I'm sure they've gone through like, you know, hundreds of prototypes and so on. And a lot of these technologies that sort of became good enough to ship became good enough to ship like a couple of years ago. Right. And the way that Apple does their kind of pipeline for launched product is like you have to start, you know, de-risking it and making it like production ready.

1:00:23you know sometimes years in advance so i think what happened is they just it's like a train right like so they just onboarded a bunch of these technologies you know a few years ago onto a train continued to work on them um and today there's ways to do you know less sensors lighter sensors and so on but like that stuff isn't ready to go internally at apple at least at the level of quality and integration that they need so they just got to ship the stuff that's been on the shelf for a while. So I think that's one component, right? It's just like, it's technology that was built a couple of years ago that leads to like higher weight and so on and so forth.

1:00:58The other thing is, like, this being the first time they were launching this product into the world, they have to make it almost like unbreakable, right? Like they have to make it extra everything so that no matter what developers throw at it, no matter what reviewers throw at it, no matter what users throw at it, it will sustain. So I really think that that's part of what they're doing as like an overdoing a little bit, overplaying a little bit, just so that they are in a kind of a safe position before starting to take some risks. You know, there could be a lot of crack gate type things if they didn't do that.

1:01:29Yeah, yeah. Well, there's always, people will find gates no matter what. They have a habit of doing that. I have maybe an existential question to finish this, which is, okay, we want to make this the most incredible piece of technology of all time, super immersive, best field of view, highest resolution. let's fast forward a little bit let's get let's get 10 years down the line with the highest end best possible vr headset if people are able to successfully deliver retina resolution and as a bonus let's throw in other senses too it's got incredible speakers and it can make you feel heat or cold and the wind in your hair let's say you can give people all of the senses through a vr headset yeah and you go out to this virtually reconstructed grand canyon in the headset and you look at it and you really think you're looking at the grand canyon like all of your senses are fully tricked you hear the birds chirping you hear that you feel the wind in your hair and you feel the heat on the top of your head through the headset and you know it's through the headset but it is a perfect reconstruction do you still feel and there's no right answer to this but do you still feel like you have to go see the real thing or do you feel like you've seen it are you in the oasis at that point basically i think the moral of the story is watch ready player one because that's kind of how it feels sometimes but i wonder what your thoughts are yeah you know i i think that it's like mostly great that people you know will be able to get to places that they otherwise maybe couldn't afford to go or can travel you know all that far take the vacation to go to and and so on but i think there's just a little bit of like okay that's like a philosophical challenge for humanity like you know it is it is kind of the oasis at the at its fullest state but um you know i think it's mostly great and you're still not going to be able to like hug in vr uh you never know i felt half the half the gloves are pretty pretty good they're just kidding they're terrible and yeah i i i think at the the end state of this is teleportation You and Cleo talked about that in that video that she put out a few weeks ago.

1:03:40I think that's the greatest contribution to humanity of this new computing paradigm, is just being able to just be with other people in their house or in your house or in some other place. It's going to take a while to get there. I think that's pretty powerful. Yeah. Well, I have one more question for you. How fast can you type the alphabet? Oh, man. It's been such a long time since I think I measured that last. I may have to try it again. Well, boy, do we have the test for you. This is a bit of a tradition around here where we have our guests type the alphabet A through Z as fast as we can. You can be as competitive or non-competitive as you like, but we will offer you a chiplet-style keyboard.

1:04:24Three different keyboard types. You can either use the keyboard built in, there's a mechanical keyboard, or there's like a Apple Magic keyboard. Yeah. Whatever you're best at. I think I'm going to go Apple Magic. Apple Magic? Yeah. Okay. Do you spend a lot of time typing on like Apple keyboards, like chiclet little style keyboards like that? I have that exact same Magic keyboard. Oh, that's perfect. Home field. And I also have a DigiKey, thanks to Andrew convincing me that mechanical keyboards are better. he's gotten into all of our heads at some point and definitely got us the bug i just bought a mechanical keyboard because of andrew i went backwards i used to be into mechanical keyboards and now i'm like give me the magic keyboard which is screen less travel it's already screen recording amazing okay well it's pretty simple all you got to do is uh hit the letter a and then hit the letter b and then hit the letter c and then when you hit z don't hit enter just that's it yeah and if i made a mistake if you make a mistake it will not continue until you hit the appropriate letter so you don't have to backspace you just have to hit every letter in order so you have to watch the screen while you're typing to make sure you okay do i get one practice um we will give you three total runs okay most people tend to improve as they go you know no pressure okay i'm glad we're not recording all right here we go

1:05:52you know there's one challenge here which is

1:05:58forget about i'm gonna do it again five seconds 5.5 seconds i think that's pretty good oh that's already pretty good 5.5 yeah it's better than you think all right that's pretty good we have a little leaderboard 5.7 nice dang one one more all right i feel like you're pretty high on the leaderboard actually adam do you have the leaderboard available he does i have it pulled up 4.83. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 4.83. Whoa, whoa. Dropping tenths of a second off of that time. Okay. Wow. So 4.83 puts you right after Marquez. Oh. And ahead of Josh Wardle. So you are in fifth place. Oh, my gosh. Top five.

1:06:49Top five. Top five. Wow. Well done. Well done, Hugo. And not that many tries. Top five on the leaderboard is very impressive. Yeah. This may be a news kill I didn't know about. Yeah. Yeah. You never know. And this is just this first three tries. You might go try this later and get added to your resume. 4.2. All right. That's good. I will take that. If you're curious about some other times, the list is very extensive. Who's top? Tom Scott. 3.5 seconds. Wow. Tom Scott was very prepared, very competitive, broke out his own keyboard. Here's the list. And the list goes, I don't think there's any double digits on there.

1:07:24Wow, look at Clio. 4.3. Yeah. Damn, that's good. Yeah. And Quinn. So, you know, people who type a lot, people who spend a lot of time around keyboards, you might be surprised how fast you can type the alphabet. But that's it. That's where we end it. So thank you for your time and, of course, for all the insight. Well, we'd love to have you back. Obviously, we talk about stuff like this all the time, not just the current tech, but the history and the context of it. So this is super fun. And hopefully we get to do it again sometime. It's a dream come true to be here. Thank you, guys. Great work.

1:07:55Appreciate it. So that's about it. That was really fun. thanks again to Hugo for coming to the studio and for sharing the time the expertise so it's fun having conversations with people who are very knowledgeable about this stuff and I feel like this is still very early like as much as we've talked about VR for the past 10 years like this is rapidly developing we didn't even touch spatial what are they called spatial personas in this conversation and like all the weird stuff that's been happening with hardware since that conversation Brandon's Vision Pro has cracked up the middle. All this stuff is going to be pretty constant, but I feel like this is a fun spot for this episode and this conversation because it was a good time.

1:08:36So, thanks again. Leave any comments of any things that you learned maybe while listening to this episode. Maybe Hugo will be in the comments. Maybe he will. That would actually be pretty sick. But I think this is the part where we sign out. Oh yeah. Waveformers Produce... Actually, I think David did this already. Let's throw it to David. Wayfurn was produced for Adam, Malia, and Ellis Revan. We are associated with the Box Media Podcast Network and our intro to our music is by Bane Silk. Close enough. Pretty close. We'll do it. We'll take it. We'll keep it.