You're Using Tabs Wrong

22:55Marques Brownlee:Yeah, okay. is so interesting because it begs the question, what is space? And also, what is a camera? Yeah. This is like bonus episode gold. Yeah, maybe we should do that. I know that NASA has been licensing or been using Nikon cameras since like 1971 or something. 71, yeah. Yeah, I knew that. Officially. There's some interesting stuff in here. The original Moonrise photo was at Hasselblad, right? Hasselblad was the first camera that NASA was like, we're going to work with a camera company and make a space camera. Yeah, yeah. John Glenn went to a drugstore and bought a Minolta that he had modified by NASA to be able to hit with a space suit.

23:35Marques Brownlee:Yeah. But then in 61, like a year, a few months before that, a cosmonaut brought a 16 millimeter camera, like a Soviet 16 millimeter camera. But then also, it seems like there were submissions with automated TV cameras. There's some interesting, I think we should dive deeper into this. So Hasselblad made special versions of the Hasselblad 500 series cameras that basically are pump action because the astronauts wear spacesuits. When you, the regular Hasselblad 500 CM has like a small little shutter button that it's like very hard to, even with your regular finger, it kind of like pricks your finger a little bit.

24:11Marques Brownlee:Not actually like through your finger, but it's like kind of hard to use. Anyway, they made it a pump action and then there's only three distance settings. There's close, medium and far. I, they made a replica series 20 years later. They made a replica series of those cameras that they made a thousand of, which I own one of them because I'm crazy. And they made these special backs that could fit like way more film than most cameras. But I should have brought that in. Maybe I'll bring it in next week and I can show you guys. It's pretty cool. Sick. Speaking of... Did they have really cool things?

24:42Marques Brownlee:Yeah, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Speaking of rolls of something. Rolls of... Good call. They weren't really rolls. They were kind of sheets. We did get to see Zach from Jerry Gevering do a teardown of a phone that never shipped because it's LG's rollable phone. Fun fact, there's one in the mail here now. What? Oh, like we got it. I know it's on the way. I have my sources. This is breaking news to us in the studio. Yeah, that's every week. That's every week. So LG died in 2021 is when they shut down their like smartphone division. They stopped making phones. Yeah, 2021. I believe that's right.

25:23Marques Brownlee:and so that's like that's like it's a crazy way to say you murdered them no I was gonna say the last two phones actually the last two phones that they shipped before they died was the V60 and the LG Wing and I had a lot of nice things to say about the LG Wing as insane as that phone was that's crazy but here's the thing about phones like the LG Wing no one else would try that yeah and that's why we love LG yeah and that's why they're dead yeah so look they also had a phone in the works that was like a rollable phone that went from a five and a half inch phone and then kind of unrolled, motorized like a parchment to an eight inch phone.

25:59Marques Brownlee:We could have had it all rolling in the deep. Yeah. Is that street light? Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so Zach got his hands on one. We will as well soon. And he immediately did a teardown, which is so his style. And you can see how over-engineered this thing is. There's two motors. It's really cool. There's two motors. There's this metal track inside. There's three spring-loaded arms. The whole thing like plays, it doesn't play sound. It makes noise as it opens. And since it makes so much noise, they play like a musical chime to sort of try to hear how loud that is. So it's really, it's quite a piece of engineering.

26:38Marques Brownlee:Just like the wing was, it's insane. And it never shipped. We don't know what they would have charged for it, what they would have called it, how they would have marketed it. But I do plan on like trying to use it. I'm excited to get that. I'm not seeing the video, but I am terrified at what that's going to be like when he takes the knife to the screen. Oh, no, he doesn't do it. He didn't do it in that video. Thank God. There's still time. Yeah, there's still time. He could do that. But I suspect a phone like this would not be very durable. No. It would not hold water and dust out very well. Yeah.

27:07Marques Brownlee:It has a soft outer screen totally exposed all the time. No, that's what was really cool about it is when it folds into the back, there's an an exterior glass screen that it folds underneath on the backside. And then so on the back, it's not the soft touch screen. I guess you're saying the front of it is the soft touch all the time, but the back works when it's not unrolled as a back screen, which is really cool. I actually like the way they engineered this thing was really impressive and probably would have been better, made more sense than the LG wing. It kind of was like, remember the Xiaomi concept that was like, we said like 200 % screen to body ratio.

27:46Yeah. It basically had a screen covering 60 % of the back of it because it rolled around the backside. But the internals are really cool. The way kind of those spring loaded arms are actually pushing the whole battery and internal module with the screen. Yeah. There's some cool stuff. Definitely go check out his video. But yeah, he doesn't destroy it. He just actually uses it and takes it apart. It's the most careful I've ever seen Zach B. he's like I am shaking opening this right now and it's really funny that's not the type of

28:16Marques Brownlee:vibe you want for a phone that you use it's like a relic it's like you don't want to do any damage to it it'll be interesting to see when we get it here if like using it in real life because you know the front screen is soft and it's it's never really protected as you use the phone so it's it's there's no way it's as durable as a regular phone yeah no but you know I do like that sort of half screen on the back it's really just uses to see like his calendar and stuff like that I I think that that's pretty smart. Viewfinder for the camera. Dang. I would buy this. It's cool. You should definitely go watch that, and I'm excited to see this thing.

28:46Marques Brownlee:Yeah. Speaking of alternate form factors. And never getting shipped. I guess it was shipped. Well, this might ship. This probably will ship. iPhone Fold. Actually, this entire week, there's been articles both about how the folding iPhone is maybe delayed and not going to ship in 2026, and then maybe it's actually not so delayed and it is going to ship in 2026. And both of those articles were posted from the same website on the same day, which is why the only reason I added this, I think it's so funny that Mac Rumors had an article called Foldable iPhone Engineering Delays Could Push Launch to 2027.

29:18And also iPhone Fold expected to launch on time in September despite delay rumors.

29:23Marques Brownlee:So is this what hedging your bet looks like in real time? This is crazy. Nothing ever happens theorem. Basically, both of these articles were just two different sources saying what they think is going to happen. one's German, one's a Japanese newspaper, I believe. I cannot pronounce the name of who wrote the article. But the one thing I did find interesting in terms of what they seem to agree on is while this is most likely going to be announced at the same time as the iPhone 18, even if it's quote unquote on time, it probably will not be delivered at the same time as the iPhone 18. So I have no idea if this is going to be 2026.

30:04I think we will see the announcement. in 2026, there's a chance this could be 2027.

30:08Marques Brownlee:Yeah, it wouldn't be the first time we've seen like a staggered release of the phones. I don't know if you remember the Mini and the Plus when they came out. But that was only a month later. It was only a month later. Wasn't the iPhone 10 also a little after the 8? Yeah. True, exactly. 10 was after. And Mini and that was COVID. That was like three though, wasn't it? It was like a couple. There was like three different dates of. I'm not gonna remember the exact order, but it was something like the Mini and the Pro Max came out after the regular on the plus or something like like a month and a half later uh which was you know easier to make videos about because they were staggered that was great actually do we want to take bets on this we already did did we oh we've definitely taken bets on if iphone fold is coming out this year yeah yeah but we got new information so do you think that it will be announced and then come out later like in 2027 or do you think it will be announced and come out in 2026.

31:02Marques Brownlee:I would not be shocked at all if we got this big fancy folding iPhone Ultra and they said coming early next year or coming in December. Maybe not early, maybe December or something like that. I could easily see it being a staggered release to build some hype. That's a really, how far away can it be to still be considered a staggered release? Typically when they release a new iPhone it comes out like what, two, three weeks later? Yeah. My take is that if you announce something and then you wait too long, people stop caring. Google had this problem with the Pixel every time Google has launched a Pixel Fold it's come out a couple months later and people just forget every Sony phone ever Sony freaking announces them in September and they always come out in December and then no one buys it shocker bro they're proud of that too I remember I talked about some of the Stony stuff it was like 10 months later they came out with the phone and then they finally made huge strides and they were like Marques we came out with the phone only 3 months after we announced it which is a big improvement but it's still way too long.

32:03Marques Brownlee:Just wait till it's done and ready to ship and then show it off and then ship it. Anyway, that's another story. Every company that's ever existed. But yeah, I think it would probably make sense as like a month and a half staggered here comes the ultra type of thing. I could see it. I got a hot take. We're going to see this at Dub Dub. See it? No shot. Zero percent. Your whole showing it off like a folding iPhone be like coming later this. I think that's going to happen at Dub Dub. Like we did with the Vision Pro. And then the phone itself will come out this year, but later. That's possible. I'm so torn on this.

32:39Marques Brownlee:I love that take because part of me is like 0 % no shot that happens. DubDub is for development and is for software. And any sort of hardware announcement overshadows all the stuff they want to show, like iOS 28. But on the other hand, the times that they do show new hardware, it's specifically exciting to developers. And things like the Mac Pro, which people could get excited to develop on. vision pro which people could get excited to develop for yeah and folding phone you know if you're making apps you kind of want to start thinking about how to optimize your app for different screen sizes so maybe it does make sense unless unless they basically just make it so it's automatic and it basically becomes an ipad i mean that's the thing they'll do for sure yeah that's going to be their strength is like you add one line of code and now it's amazing like you can make an iPad app by clicking one button basically.

33:30Marques Brownlee:But maybe you want to have some special animation for the unfolding or something. I don't know. I think it makes sense like that. I just think Dub Dub this year is going to be too much worrying about having to re-announce Siri 2.0. That's why I think they're going to do it. To cover that up. Look at the excitement of the folding phone. Forget about liquid ass. But that's going to look so bad if it's like we have to re-announce the thing that's two years late and here's the thing that might be late again. I think they could spin it because you know what's starting to happen? Pretend anything's going to happen.

34:01Marques Brownlee:Well, the thing that I've, the take I've seen more and more online is that Apple being late to AI has actually been the best version of AI, which is, you know, all these phones are just shoving AI down our throats and Apple's kind of not doing that so much and that's refreshing. We appreciate that. It's also because, and they stick to what they're good at, which is good hardware. It's also because Apple didn't really spend billions of dollars investing in this kind of stuff and now that ai is becoming so commodified they kind of have like their pick of the litter on what they want to utilize right so they they picked gemini because they had all these options they didn't have all those options when chat gbt in the iphone got announced that was like kind of the only thing that they could do and now it's like this awkward like middle child that's like in the iphone in a weird way and they're probably going to get rid of that and yeah it's nice that they can do it but it's also really funny knowing that they tried and that was not the original plan and that they failed.

34:54But they failed upwards. Yeah. They got very lucky on that. They're going to fail.

34:58Marques Brownlee:And their stock is the only one that has not been impacted by AI stuff. Yeah. You think of Apple as this huge tech company and if AI is the next big huge tech, then they must be a player in that space. But they're not a player in every space. They don't make everything. So, you know, search engine, they don't make. They, you know, borrow the best one and show it to their users as a default. And maybe that's not released. Well, yeah, they definitely may. They're not a public competitor in that space. And I think that that's kind of ending up true of AI where, OK, there's all these models, there's all these advanced development.

35:35Marques Brownlee:They tried to jump in. It didn't really work. But they still their bread and butter is still the device that you use to do the AI stuff on. Yeah. People are clamoring to buy Mac Studios that finally have enough VRAM. If you could tether three of them together with Thunderbolt, you can have a machine that runs OpenClaw and everything's local. Like that's – people are buying Apple hardware still. And that's probably going to continue to be true. Yeah, and I think ultimately they're realizing that people use different AIs for different use cases. And so they just want to be the main thing that runs the thing.

36:05Marques Brownlee:They don't want to be choosing what you use with it. Like Apple intelligence at the end of the day is just an extension of things that the phone could basically already do. and so that doesn't need to be the thing that does everything like you're going to use clod on your phone you're going to use gemini on your phone you're going to use open ai chap gpt on your phone if that's the service that you use yeah and so you know google obviously has both and makes it but at the end of the day that could be a negative for them because if google's trying to force you to use gemini and then things work better with gemini than they do with say clod and you're like a clod power user you might be more incentivized to use the iphone that gives you more of a choice to use what AI you want to use.

36:44Marques Brownlee:Yeah. So there is no world in which that happens. Why? There's no way that Google, the open one, would be more closed down with which AI you can use than Apple. I'm not saying it would be closed, but like Gemini is so embedded in Android. That's like Gemini will always have its... Android tie. Yeah, its Android tie and its inherent like abilities to do more, but they're not going to actively make you not use Gemini. No, I know that. But it would be annoying if you're doing various things on your phone and it's prompting you to use Gemini. It's actively trying to move you towards a Gemini subscription.

37:22Yeah, but I could just like right now I could just change it to Claude like in the settings.

37:26Marques Brownlee:Change what to Claude? My assistant. I think that's probably what people are going to want from their phone is the well integrated thing, which is why it felt like it made sense for Apple Intelligence to be really good because that's going to be the one that works the best across all these Apple surfaces. It's going to pull my messages and it's going to pull my Google, my calendar from Apple calendar and all these other Apple things. So I want the Apple intelligence AI to be good on my Apple device. And of course, Gemini will be good across all these Google services, pull from my Google Drive, Google Photos, Google whatever.

37:56Marques Brownlee:So that's what we were hoping for from Apple intelligence. But now they're just kind of giving us the choice of other ones that don't really talk to Apple stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not a businessman. I don't know how money works. I'm a businessman. However, I've always understood Google's whole business model to be we're going to either sell our hardware at a loss or with the slimmest possible margin we can do because you're going to use all these Google services and we can harvest your data. Yeah. And so I kind of agree with David. I see going forward Google's going to be like, you're using Gemini because if someone buys a pixel and then uses Claude, they're losing money on that.

38:36Marques Brownlee:That's now for Google. Yeah. Yeah, you want to make money for the pixels. Google, that's an elf for Google. That's a Google, that's an elf. Yeah, I'm saying Google all of a sudden is not making, like they're still harvesting all your data because they're using a pixel, but they need the Gemini data, I think, to really make it worth it. I think my thing is that no AI is making money anyway. Google can just burn money because they own the internet. No, but Google will make money by getting training data off of your Gemini chats and then also using the data they get from you via your Gemini chats to make your ads more targeted.

39:08But they're getting that data already from the iPhone, which is giving them a billion dollars on top of that. I think they need the 3 % of Pixel users to use Gemini. They're going to let you use Anthropic. Guys, I think I might have just gotten clapped back.

39:20Marques Brownlee:But what I'm saying is Google is always going to be pushing you towards Gemini. Because all of their services, all of the things on the phone, it's so embedded into the phone that it's easier to use Gemini. So if you're like a Claude super user, you might be kind of annoyed that like now half of my context is in Gemini and the other half is in Claude. And whether or not that ends up being a thing that incentivizes people to buy an iPhone, it probably won't be. But it's just kind of an interesting interaction because of the way that AI has been commodified. Well, more so my thing, my point was, I don't think there's a world where Apple is more open with that kind of thing, with sharing the context between different AIs than Google.

39:58I kind of disagree with that. Specifically because Apple has the servers that they're making with Google in partnership. Like Anthropic has servers from AWS. They have servers from Azure. They have servers everywhere. Apple is not going to let your data go to some random server. They want control of the server, which they have a partnership with Google.

40:14Marques Brownlee:Yeah, and like the things that happen like autonomously with the phone are obviously like through Apple, through Google, through those servers that are, you know, nothing touches it. I just think they care less about what AI that you use versus Google really, really wants you to use Gemini. and the market incentives will probably push them towards making Gemini the choice they want you to, you know. I think you both have really, really valid points in the sense that I still, I really see where you're coming from, where it's like Google doesn't have as much of an incentive to lock you into Gemini as I thought they might have at the outset of this conversation.

40:46Marques Brownlee:I think. But also, I do think Apple's opinion on this matter would change a lot more than Google's when you're talking about just like a normal generative transformer versus something agentic that's like monkeying around in your phone. For sure, yeah. I think there's also probably a world where a lot of people at Google believe that if you do use... I'm sorry, Andrew's face. No, my pixel makes me want to never touch Gemini. Mark, please, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead, go ahead. The look on Andrew's face was... I guess I think that there's probably a lot of people at Google who believe that they want you to use Gemini because that represents like the next stage of all of the data harvesting that they do.

41:24Marques Brownlee:And if you start using a different AI and start doing all these searches and all these queries and all this stuff, that represents a bunch of data that they're not getting. 100%. And so if they're allowing people to move on from Gemini to a bunch of other stuff, and then they slowly get less and less data from the old ways of gathering data, then they miss jumping the boat. Yeah, I mean, think about this. They're basically transitioning from Google Search being their primary revenue driver to Gemini. So if they don't have as many Gemini users, that's like a huge impact for them. That's what I'm just...

41:55I'm trying to envision a world where I can go into the iPhone settings and change Siri to Claude versus going into the pixel settings and changing Gemini to Anthropic, like to Claude. And I'm trying to think which one is more likely to happen. Really?

42:11Marques Brownlee:Just because of who's a player in the game, I think. Like the way you can choose your search engine now on the iPhone, you could just move it from Google to whatever you want. Is the same because they don't make their own search engine. I think when there is a Claude and Anthropic and a GPT and a Gemini, you can do that on the iPhone and pick your model as well because they don't have a competitor in that space. But not to just regurgitate Adam's earlier point, but like I totally think that's the case with a chat. However, if everyone's trying to get these agentic models that can actually do stuff inside your phone, I have it seems to me like a more uphill thing getting Apple to let an agent run on someone else's servers.

42:49Marques Brownlee:and I can't believe Apple would want to set up their own data centers. Well, the agentics - Explicably to run other people's agentic models. The agentic stuff is probably going to be a local Gemini Nano model, which is different from the things that are hitting the servers. Yeah, but that sucks. I want local Claude. I want local Yahoo. Yeah, and I don't think that Apple is going to allow multiple different models for that because they want the user experience to be unique and the same across all devices. I could see Apple eventually working with Anthropic and OpenAI for the stuff, the AI stuff that happens in the cloud, because then they're creating a marketplace where they can reduce the cost that they're paying to those model providers.

43:33Marques Brownlee:And also it gives people the option to, you know, use whatever commodity that they use. Hear me out. We do a bonus episode. This feels like a bonus episode. This is like a whole episode. We get Tim Cook. We get Sundar. We get Sam. And we just go, who was right? Tell us who was right. Wait, which one of us was right? Was it me? I want to do a cage match. This was not supposed to go on this long. Sorry, we were talking about the iPhone fold. No, but it's an interesting question, and it's one that we will get the answer to, I think. In a couple months. Pretty soon, yeah. And then we'll find out who was right.

44:06Marques Brownlee:You see that up by the moon? That's the rails. We are so far off the rails. Wow. I was going to add my one thing about AI iPhones, which is my Pixel. I came across this thing the other day where I was like, my Google Home, my like Nest doorbell isn't giving me notifications anymore. What broke on this? And I realized I turned it off because I was getting so annoyed that I changed my Google Home camera stuff for the notifications to like, it says you can use AI to search through activities that happen, but what it really does is not just that, but every time it sends a notification, it's this like really long, terrible sentence about what may have happened.

44:45And I got so annoyed at the notifications of like a person walks up from a delivery agent to the thing. It's just like, I just want to see there's a person at the door. That's all you have to tell me. And having 30 of those notifications, I guess I got so mad I turned it off one day and forgot and then realized a month later. And there aren't like granular settings. There might be something in there now. I just wanted it to be able to search like, did somebody drop something off between two and four? And that should work. I think it should work. The first part works. But the notifications are insufferable.

45:18But the notifications did get verbose. It's so bad. And it also, even though all my family's faces are attached in there, it correctly identifies the person one out of 40 times. Whoa. Despite almost looking directly at the camera, like face scanning it. Mine's pretty good.

45:34Marques Brownlee:Mine's awful. I remember the day I started getting the new notifications because it would always just be like person, person, person, movement, person. now it's like a UPS driver dropped off a medium sized box at the door and I'm like but then you click that and it's like Claire coming home with groceries mine have been pretty I would say mine have been like 90 % way too accurate and then 10 % totally off mine's 90 % totally off while we're talking about Ring shout out to the new Ben Jordan video another absolute banger it's terrifying surveillance day. I just like to say hi to everyone watching me when I hear you.

46:15Marques Brownlee:Alright, well that went quite a while. Can someone transition? Samsung Messages is getting shut down. Yeah, okay, thanks. I mean it actually is a good segue because that segue was as abrupt as Samsung shutting down Samsung Messages. Because they're basically like, yo peace, this s***'s gone, July. That's kind of a segue within a segue. What is Samsung Messages? So maybe like a decade ago, if you bought a Samsung phone. No, this is not. I'll make it short. I'll make it short. No, no, no, no. Samsung used to ship their own messages app. And you bought a Samsung phone and there'd be Samsung messages and have its own chime and have its own layout.

46:51Marques Brownlee:It was just exactly like Google messages or whatever. And I would always actually go to the Play Store and download Google messages because I liked it better. And then one day, maybe five, six years ago, I'm not sure exactly when. Six or seven. Six, seven years ago, they started just shipping Samsung phones with Google messages by default. Like they stopped shipping it with Samsung messages. They still supported it and it still existed, but they just accepted that people just use Google Messages when they buy an Android phone. And now it's a couple years later and they're like, all right, we're not going to keep supporting Samsung Messages.

47:20Marques Brownlee:So whatever servers, whatever service there was, it's gone. If you still actually use Samsung Messages. Be very careful. Yeah. The thread on the Samsung subreddit is very upset. Well, if I'm on the Samsung subreddit, I probably am more likely to be a user of Samsung Messages. What's crazy is a two-month heads up. That's wild. That's crazy. That's pretty fast. What happens when it EOLs? I assume you can't send messages using the app anymore. That would be insane. It's gotta be. It should just update and auto-download Google Messages and replace it. I mean, that's essentially what you're going to want to do at this point.

47:56Marques Brownlee:Yeah, but it's crazy that they're making people do that manually. Well, I think they accepted that this would happen at some point, like five years ago when they stopped shipping it as a default on their devices. but they should have given people a heads up way, way long ago when they stopped shipping as a default that, hey, we're going to shut this down at some point. They probably just didn't know they were going to do it. Now they just decided they're doing it and they're doing it two months. So yeah, like my dad's on a Samsung. I doubt he's going to know to update before June or July. But is it update or is it you also have to download Google Messages?

48:26That's a great question. I didn't understand what you were saying. Yeah, for the people who don't know, not everyone's going to see this thing. Are they just going to three days later be like i haven't had a text in a little while don't worry it's totally okay

48:37Marques Brownlee:everyone knows android users notoriously awesome at keeping their phones up to date literally the best user base for hitting the update button they're gonna be fine yeah the verge says 2024 is when they started shipping as a default google messages i feel like it was way before that well they did it because of rcs they were trying to like really force people onto google messages because for a while google messages and weirdly like verizon messages were the only the only supported RCS. And then they had that weird bromance with Google for a long time that sort of is still in action but not as much anymore.

49:10Marques Brownlee:Yeah, I don't know. It's strange. Can I rant about the time? Sorry, quick tangent. I like it. First ad break's gonna be 57 minutes. The next... I got ratioed so hard on threads. Oh, yeah! What did you do? I posted a screenshot of Google Messages on a Samsung device and I circled the whole top half of the screen. It just says Google Messages, like the logo. And I'm like, why is this here? Half of the screen is just unusable information. Why would you get ratioed for that? Everyone was like, bro, just scroll. And I'm like, I know how apps work. I'm saying, why isn't there useful information here?

49:51Marques Brownlee:There was a moment where everyone applauded that white space. They were like, wow, how thoughtful. I can reach my top message. So that's the whole point. Yeah, that's why I'm getting ratioed because one UI is for one-handedness. And I was like, yeah, I know. I'm saying it's stupid because if you go to like Samsung phone app, they make use of that space. It's not things that you can tap or whatever, but it'll tell you like you have a missed call. You have like useful information. Why don't I have that in other places? I have a question for you because I haven't used Google Messages in a while. If you can you pin message threads or messages?

50:21Marques Brownlee:You can and it stays in the middle. It doesn't pin to the top the way it does on Apple. Adam's just saying it should be usable space. Yes. I think that's totally fair. Or not even like, well, yeah, I guess usable. but like tell me some sort of useful information. It should just be a clock. If you don't want me to click it. It should just be a clock. I would be happy with that. It should just be a clock. It's going to be ads one day. Next topic. Don't give them those ideas. It's just going to be a giant Gemini button at some point. Yeah. Samsung messages shutting down. Less choice sucks. We're going to leave a little pause here for all the people who are about to type.

50:53Just use WhatsApp. Go on. Do it. I don't want you to miss any more of the episode. Got it. Almost. A little angrier. Perfect.

51:01Marques Brownlee:less choice does suck but i would never be sad to see verizon messages plus implode that's all i'm gonna say just saying that's a good thing fair that's a good thing yeah all right well we should take a quick break we have talked for a quite a while about a bunch of things and now we should do trivia the next one was gonna be a nice simple little section well it could be simple for the beginning of the i'm just kidding it literally says debate there's no it's not related but i think we're all on the same page we are not oh i know no yeah good to know this trivia trivia a little bit of foreshadowing after the break we're going to talk about what is in my opinion the craziest tech news story of the year assuming no one's lying anthropics project glasswing um but the question is where does the term glasswing come from, and it's multiple choice.

51:56Marques Brownlee:A, glasswing is an experimental F1 rear wing design from the ground effect era of cars. B, a glasswing is a Central American butterfly with transparent wings. C, a glasswing is a type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopies. Or D, it's an acronym, general layer analysis screening with integrated neural GPTs. GPT standing for Generative Pre-trained Transformer. Nested. Nested acronym. The nested acronym is wild. Okay. That is, I definitely wouldn't have gotten that without the multiple choice. I still might not get it, but we'll think about that. Answers will be at the end like usual.

52:39Marques Brownlee:We'll be right back. I don't think I want my parachute to be called a glass wing.

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55:08Marques Brownlee:Save on grills and patio sets with low prices guaranteed during Spring Black Friday, only at the Home Depot. Now through April 22nd, while supplies last. Exclusion supplies to homedepot.com slash price match for details. All right, welcome back. Got a little debate for y 'all. So David Pierce wrote an article on The Verge this week called Vertical Browser Tabs Are Better and You Should Use Them, about how Chrome finally added vertical tabs to their browser, and then listed out some of the reasons why you should use them. So I know a lot of us on this podcast have some very strong opinions about vertical tabs, so I thought the best thing to do is to talk about how we like them or don't like them, list some of the reasons David Pierce laid out and in true podcast fashion we can debate him in a situation where he can't defend himself that's cool, yeah so he's very pro vertical tabs David on the next Vergecast episode you will respond this is how we start YouTube drama you gotta make response videos and we haven't done this yet so it's time let's all start I think you two are pro vertical tabs right here's my browser right here vertical tabs on the side yeah you think I'm pro vertical tabs this should be common knowledge it's also 75 % of why I started using ARK yeah ARK I mean in the episode where I talked about ARK for the first time I explained it so horribly but the only thing where I was like this is amazing was vertical tabs what about you two vertical tabs all day yeah thank you horizontal tabs all day interesting and is this because you haven't tried or you dislike vertical His screen is square.

56:44Marques Brownlee:That's actually very important for this. Very valid for this. Even better, though. When I'm a browsing, I'm one of those people who is stuck in the year 2011, and I use command and one through nine to go through my tabs. You just memorize which tab is in which number? It's not really like a... I mean, I guess. You make it sound like it's a big mental task. Sounds like one. That's how you switch between tabs, but you still have all of your tabs up at the top of your browser. Yeah, but the buttons are horizontal. Oh, interesting. Oh, so maybe there's a little mental alignment. No, it's just wrong the other way.

57:22Marques Brownlee:Sorry. That's valid. Okay. I'm pro-horizontal tabs. Pro-horizontal. And does that mean you are anti-vertical? Oh, yeah. I would be down with like a grid of tabs, and then I could use the numpad for that. But they need to be in the same shape, like a three by three grid of tabs. Do you have a numpad? Yeah. On all my computers. Pro Tools pretty much requires you to have a num tab. I use my laptop almost exclusively in dock mode with a keyboard. And like 400 peripherals. Yeah. I'm out of, I'm sorry. I'm out of USB ports on every single setup I have, which is hilarious because I have a CalDigit TS5.

58:02Marques Brownlee:Like it's just, anyway. Yeah. I like, I like horizontal tabs, but I'm also a Safari user. Yeah, that's crazy. So I don't know if my opinions are super valid. That's crazy. It's crazy that you use Safari because if you're docked all the time, the battery life doesn't really matter. And Safari is only good for one thing, which is battery life. I like the icon. Not gonna lie. Unfortunately. Commonly accepted facts. Commonly accepted facts. Accepted by who? Lunatics? I would say ask any browser enthusiast. This is not what this conversation was supposed to be. What are we debating? However, the reason Safari is goaded, it's, okay, one, I'm on an Apple Silicon laptop.

58:43Marques Brownlee:Battery life is going to be legit no matter what or where I'm going. No, no, it's not. That's not true. It's not true. Bro, I'm a super turbo power user. I can at least get like four hours of battery life minimum. The difference between Chrome and Safari in regular browsing for several hours is shockingly high. It's huge. Really? It's dramatic. Oh, my God. This laptop is terrifyingly long-lasting battery on Safari, is average at best with Chrome. Wait, so why are we hating on Safari then? So you're saying you use it docked so that the performance and efficiency battery gains that you get are effectively not important at all?

59:21Marques Brownlee:No, the performance is super important. Performance is great. I like having RAM on my computer. Valid. And I think there's a little bit more of a, obviously people, depends on how much RAM you have, where this argument becomes more important. But how long it takes to open the browser, I notice Safari's faster. And then once I'm into browsing, I notice effectively no difference. And the battery life is the main thing that I would use Safari for. Interesting. My thinking is one, I do a lot of RAM heavy tasks all the time. I really like having as much RAM free as possible at any given moment. Love that.

59:54Marques Brownlee:two I'm a little bit of a security freak like over the past few months I've become like way way way more freakish about my data and I love private relay like I see private relay like securing me all the time now and then I guess I don't really use like browser extensions very much like like not it's like very not often that I see a browser extension that I'm interested in and then whenever I like I have Chrome installed on all my computers for when There is like a specific extension I need to use, but I have yet to find a single browser extension that I'm like, I'm so this is so essential to my life that I'd be willing to use 60 gigabytes of RAM.

1:00:34Marques Brownlee:Use the cloud and Chrome extension. I do. That's the only time I open Chrome. So I'll be doing all my stuff in Safari and then I'll have a Chrome window open that cloud is controlling. If I can make an analogy, when I first got Andrew to use a tasks app and there were like 75 options and you were like, I'll just try Google tasks first. And I was like, okay, that's, it's a good, like it's the default one. There's no advanced features and no plugins or anything crazy like that, but it is gets you in the door. That is Safari. I think. Like, as soon as you find, like, two or three features that are not available in tasks that you start to lean on, it's the same thing as finding two or three extensions in the browser or two or three UI features in the browser that you start to lean on.

1:01:13Marques Brownlee:And then you're like, Safari is so far behind. It doesn't have – it has extensions, but, like, the amount of UI fun and trickery and elegance and interesting things happening in – I mean, Arc is obviously the one we talk about a lot. But so many other browsers, they're just not in Safari. Yeah, I really want to talk about tabs. I don't want to make it. I was just saying. Do you know what features really stupid to lean on? Vertical tabs. Okay, let's talk about vertical tabs. You can literally lean on them because they're vertical, like a wall. You can't lean on the ground. That's horizontal. All right, your monitor is widescreen.

1:01:44Marques Brownlee:This is the default, right? Your monitor is widescreen when you have a bunch of tabs at the top. It's cramming them all into the top, and you can't see anything. Put them over to the side. You can have as many tabs as you want. You'll never run out of room. You don't run out of vertical real estate because your tabs are only a slot. So just horizontal tabs just make sense for a vertical browsing experience on a widescreen monitor. Agreed? Agreed. All right. Agreed in that scenario. But question. Well, okay. There's more scenarios in this. One, do you guys use your Mac dock on the side? It's at the bottom.

1:02:17Marques Brownlee:What's a Mac dock? Actually, on my desktop, it is on the side. It's on the side. No, I don't use it on the side. That's crazy. Why not? If it's widescreen and it's vertical. I don't really use my dock. I see what you're doing. It's the exact size. No, no. I think Marques might win this one. Well, because he does use it. Adam uses it on the side also. What? No, no, no. I used to use it on the side too, but the icons are square. And so it doesn't matter what direction, whereas writing is horizontal. So you can inherently fit more. No, no, but we're talking about width of screen real estate and that a general web page is vertical.

1:02:52This is something David Pierce says also. He says - Precious vertical pixels. Virtually every modern computer display is widescreen. Most web pages are taller than they are wide. So if you're reading anything, you don't need the width of space.

1:03:04Marques Brownlee:I don't agree with that. I think the idea is that like, if you have something that is larger in the horizontal dimension, then you'd want to stack it vertically because you lose less information per instance. I think it's even simpler. It's, I have more horizontal pixels, so I will waste more of them on tabs. I have less vertical pixels, so I want to scroll less by having less things wasting my vertical pixels. Something you guys are disregarding is the magical ability to hide your tabs. Arc, this is my goaded Arc setup. Yeah, hidden tabs. Yeah, you swipe. Okay, the active page, you swipe over, and then your tabs come out.

1:03:39There's something so funny about you not doing that with your dock. What do you say you don't use your dock? Well, I don't really use my dock.

1:03:44Marques Brownlee:You can hide your dock. Exactly, you should hide your dock. Yeah, I should. I never thought about that. You should definitely hide your dock. But, okay, this is the goaded Arc setup. You have two windows. Arc does have a feature where you can have like two. It's one window, but you have two separate pages. But that's lame. Can I pause you right there really fast? Okay. Because that's what I wanted to say. Everyone's talking about width of screen real estate. I put two windows up. So now, yeah, I don't have that much screen real estate. Now in two windows, if you're not doing his goaded Arc setup, if you have two windows with vertical tabs, now you're taking up so much space.

1:04:18But they get hidden. And you have this huge buffer in between. They get hidden. You're a very specific scenario. No, come on.

1:04:23Marques Brownlee:Most people hide the tabs in Arc. In Arc, but this whole article is about Chrome. Yeah, because Chrome sucks. Thank you. I think by default... You don't hide your tabs, right? No, I don't. So if you have two browser windows... Sorry, I feel like I'm interrupting a lot here, but I don't want to miss specific things we're talking about. Yeah. If you have two browsers open side by side... They both share tabs. So now it's tabs, article, tabs, article. And it's all like... Yeah, that'd be terrible. I do that sometimes. do that on a widescreen monitor it's still fine there's enough horizontal on your 32 inch monitor well it's wide it's a but what about your 14 inch mac there are people who use ultra wides anyone who uses an ultra wide cannot possibly justify not using horizontal tabs or vertical tabs yeah you got to use vertical tabs yeah they're not yeah but on uh on my you know the pro display or whatever it's still widescreen i still got plenty of horizontal pixels to spare and every website is vertical what about this computer your 14 inch macbook pro yeah i got one window you have one window yeah okay what about mac os and not windows idiot one window docs at the bottom i could easily move the dock to the side that's totally valid point but yeah i i see all my can i see what about watching videos in a browser what about it it's widescreen you're losing a bunch of real estate especially in an mkbhd 2x1 video i watch videos on my phone all the time wait wait wait wait wait wait sorry i'm watching a video in my browser it's a widescreen video and then vertical tabs is making it smaller but you can maximize oh no it's not there's still extra horizontal there's still white space to the left and right of every video really yeah open up youtube right you don't have so much left and right you don't maximize if i maximize it's full screen yeah exactly yeah just full screen it's whatever but here's what do you mean yeah black space black space left and right there's what the heck there's just more blank space the video is the same size oh can you do an mdbht video yeah it's two by one though if i switch to Yeah, which is why it would be.

1:06:17Marques Brownlee:Oh, okay. Oh, that's what you meant by two by one. So this is a bluey phone review. And so now there's, this is about almost perfect, but there's still extra horizontal space. Okay, now get rid of it. Same size video. Oh, you're right. Same size video. Hide my tabs. I got plenty of horizontal pixels to work with here. Yeah. It's all about the vertical space. If you want your requests outside. If you're outside of theater mode, it does. Oh. Okay, that kind of screws my point up there. Yeah, the video is the same size. So I'm a big, I agree with David Pierce, I think. I'm going to read his article, but I assume he's saying precious vertical pixels.

1:06:53Marques Brownlee:You need those. Yeah. I did do a super, super scientific test, which is I took a screenshot of my browser with horizontal tabs and vertical tabs. I brought it into Photoshop. I took total pixel size and took a percentage of space inside my browser window and how much it's taking up. Okay, but yeah. It's going to take it more. space, but you can spare that. That's like saying I have two bank accounts. One of them has way more money in it and I'm spending a larger percentage of the smaller one, but the smaller one was just for extra stuff. That's a terrible analogy, but it's like I have a front yard and I got, I got one.

1:07:28Marques Brownlee:I got a front yard and a backyard. The backyard is smaller, but it's the backyard. Like I can do whatever. So if I have a front yard and I've been putting like a, I want to put a sculpture in one of these yards, I can put a way bigger sculpture in the backyard because it's my backyard. I can do whatever I want. I've got extra grass back there. The front yard is precious. I'm bad at this. I'm saying I would put a sculpture in the front yard if I was getting a sculpture. Help me out. I have a driveway. I've got a two-car garage. Horizontal tabs. I've got a two-car garage. And I have a Hummer. I'm trying to understand what you're saying.

1:08:05Marques Brownlee:I have a Hummer. Okay, I have a two-car garage and I have one massive car, a Hummer. Hummer-y me. If I wanted to build a gym in my garage, I would build it in the half garage that's not being used while I still park the Hummer in the big garage slot. And how does this relate to the tabs? Because that half garage is extra, right? So you're saying it takes a big, the gym takes a huge portion of that second garage spot, but who cares? It's the second garage spot. I wasn't using it for anything. Does that track? I see what you're saying. I've lost the analogy. I think the difference, what would need to happen is the Hummer would need to be able to expand to fill in the space allotted, which is not how Hummers work.

1:08:45Marques Brownlee:No, the gym expands. The gym is what's expanding. The gym can expand. You're building a gym in the garage. Oh, I see, I see, I see. You have a two-car garage. So the Hummer is the tabs, is what you're saying? And the gym is the... The gym is the tabs. The gym is the tabs. But the tabs don't expand to fill the whole screen, right? No, but they, I mean, they take up more. You're saying, so Andrew said... Okay. Andrew said that when I switch to vertical tabs, it's turning into blank space way more. Well, it's overall taking up more space inside of the browser. The browser is for looking at web pages.

1:09:19It's taking away more space for the web page.

1:09:21Marques Brownlee:And my argument is it's taking up way more space, but it's taking up a whole bunch of space that you weren't going to do anything with because every website is vertical. Yes. Majority of websites, I still disagree with some of those things. If I'm also on my computer putting multiple windows next to each other vertically, I'm losing horizontal space. So therefore now if there's a vertical tab list on every single one of those windows, it is destroying real estate of web browsers. You don't even need to have this argument if you just do what you're supposed to do, which is to do the hover thing where the tabs expand.

1:09:55In the browser, that's going to be sunlit. Sunset. Sunset within the next year. I don't care.

1:10:02Marques Brownlee:Can you hide your tabs at the top? If you have top tabs? Oh, I don't know. Can you hide those? I think you can turn off the bookmarks bar or whatever. Oh, no, wait. The tabs you mean. Okay, here's my take. Look at this. Look at your screen. Perfect. There's like 12 % of your screen that's being used by useless s***. You're basically in a full screen mode. Me? Yeah, because that's how you should use your computer. Okay, I have a way to Wait, can I just say the percentages of what I calculated? Horizontal tabs took 3 % of the total pixels used by my browser window. Vertical tabs took up 14 % of the total pixels of the browser window.

1:10:50Marques Brownlee:Yeah, whatever. So my take is I would argue that's functional space, though, because the way that I use my vertical tabs is folders, and they're drop-down. So when you click on one, it pops out underneath. So I could see everything. Let's go. Can't you do tabs or groups? Waterfalling, cascading, that's how folders work on your computer. If you only have like three tabs open, is the entire sidebar just empty then? Yes. Yeah. And you weren't going to use those pixels anyway. And that's why you got to be mean. Why is that so hard to understand? The amount of tabs that you have open. Yeah. If I have 20 tabs, it fills up the whole list.

1:11:26Marques Brownlee:But I'd never have that many tabs open. And this whole left area, which was not going to be used either way, switch to vertical, switch to the top tabs. it's also still blank because the website's in the middle of the screen. So those tabs are all white no matter what you do. Just so you might as well have the superior. Well yeah, it just takes up like eight times as much screen real estate. Unless you hide them. You say screen real estate like it's precious but it's blank pixels. Hide them. I do think it's... This all gets solved if you hide them. Every website. when you hide your dock right now.

1:11:56Marques Brownlee:I'll hide my dock right now. Every website scrolls up and down. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. Every one. Every single time. Scrolls vertical. turn hiding on. I need to have a screenshot of my... I just want to see your two web browser windows open with vertical tabs side by side next to each other doing something. Yeah, you do have way more... You're like, widescreen people are stupid, but I have two... I also have two monitors. No more doc for me. Wow. It's committing to it. I'm committing. I like that. I don't click on those things. I just do command space. Actually, yeah. Wait. I'm gonna do that too.

1:12:31Marques Brownlee:I'm going to hide my doc is this something we can all agree on because I'm a Raycast guy the real end to this whole debate is everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want yeah that's the whole reason I liked ARK in the first place because I have way too many tabs open and it closes them for me you don't want ARK you want an AI browser of Byatlassian get me my Jira ASAP integrate with my KPIs also Firefox has had vertical tabs for a while. I don't use them. I'm just saying Firefox is superior. Andrew's the meme of the guy in the party who's like, no one here. I also totally understand.

1:13:14I'm the last person you should be taking advice for. I'm the last. I'm Safari. My desktop is insane. It makes no sense. The Pro Display XDR, I use that big screen real estate by just having a bunch of different sized aspect ratio windows where a corner of them popping out all over. So that's how I can just click between all my different windows. And I also am running Android Studio because I don't have Instagram on any of my devices, which means I can't share things to my story. So I now have a virtual Pixel 9 running on my desktop just so I can add things to my story when the studio tags me in it.

1:13:50Marques Brownlee:I think what we're learning is all of us have very different habits on our desktops and we just kind of have to use what works for us, you know? You didn't let me talk about the most goaded Safari feature of them all. The one that literally is causing Safari to lap all other browser offerings. Oh, God. You guys ever checked out your reading list? Oh, no. I've only ever accidentally clicked that. You know, there's like 8 ,000 Chrome extensions that do that. Yeah. You can save things to your superior bookmark aggregation service with a simple plugin. That is multi-platform. Multi-platform. That syncs to all your devices.

1:14:28Marques Brownlee:see but what i don't know what background processes that's running i don't know what servers is connecting to wait okay before we move on i have reading list i'm on my computer at work and i see an article that i'm interested in and i'm like chrome has that i do shut up i'm talking here okay buddy and then i'm like damn i want to read that but i'm doing work right now you know and then i get on the bus and i open my phone and i hit reading list and you can do that with Chrome too. I don't care. You know how many hoops I have to go through? I have to put my computer on a spit over a fire and spin it while doing some tribal dance.

1:15:08Marques Brownlee:Just put it in a fridge. Look, Alice, I understand that you're traumatized from the iPhone 12 mini battery life, so now you're only focused on battery life, and I understand that. No, I'm not focused on. I'm focused on RAM. I'm focused on RAM, and I'm focused on... I don't like my browser connecting to random servers. I didn't tell it to because I downloaded some random extension from somewhere in the world okay you get your viruses yeah yeah come on man i want to make my virus soup um i have a quick question for you guys what browser do you use on your phones that i actually that's a good i have several answers quick question no on my android phone i use chrome on my iphone i use arc and safari what unfortunately what do you use safari for.

1:15:49Marques Brownlee:I default to Arc, but I have several tabs that I leave open in Safari that I always go back to. Why don't you just have them on Arc? Uh, I don't know. This conversation is going to end and all of our audiences are going to be like, why do I listen to these people talk? These are the people I take advice from? This is just revealing that a lot of us started habits that we just didn't think about and now we're like, that's the bad thing. Why are we doing this? No, I've tried to switch. I've used, I never tried Arc because I was so annoyed but I've tried every other browser. I even tried the perplexity one, Comet.

1:16:24Marques Brownlee:I haven't tried Opera GX either. Ask me what I use on my phone. What do you use on your phone? Safari. You must if you have the reading list. Please don't use Safari. You have the reading list on your phone, right? Safari music. Is that Safari music? Yeah, it was supposed to be Safari music. The Safari icon is the superior icon of everything. I've tried to use a bunch of the browsers. Safari's fine, but the reason why I can't go all in on it is because it's not multi-platform. That's basically it. At home, I use a Linux computer. I can't download Safari on a Linux computer. You also can't download it on your Android phone.

1:16:58Marques Brownlee:Yeah, and I can't download it on my Android phone and I switch back and forth all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been weaning off of Arc slowly. I should be leaving Arc on my phone. Why? Because the lack of updates, I just know it's not going to perform well in like a year. It's going to be a slow-crawling mess. It's been dead for a while and I still use it. But do you ever check on other browsers and go, oh, Arc is a slow-crawling mess? I check on other browsers, but like, what do you mean by slow crawling? Like it takes like 30 years to open. No, it doesn't take 30 years to open. Try opening another browser.

1:17:28Marques Brownlee:See how fast it opens. My God. I mean, I think David hit the nail on the head. It's habit and all of us are in weird habits. And a browser is one of those habitual things you're in so much that any change feels really weird. Does ARCs still sync? I don't know. Yes, yes, yes. It does? Yes, yes, yes. Maybe I'll switch back and hate myself a little more. It's a good thing none of these browsers have any critical vulnerabilities. Yeah, that's a great segue. I think they all do. They actually all do. Actually, everything does. Actually, everything does. Okay. Very, very big story dropped. I love this episode.

1:18:02Marques Brownlee:This podcast has a critical vulnerability. Insane story dropped yesterday, Tuesday, April 7th. ChatGPT is in your car now. You know, it's going to happen eventually. Anthropic announced a large project called Project Glasswing, which is a joint cybersecurity effort to patch various vulnerabilities across different OSs, across various software. The reason this is a big deal is because I think last week or possibly the week before, we talked about how Anthropic had accidentally leaked a bunch of stuff that it had been working on for a very long period of time. One of those leaks, probably the biggest of those leaks, was a new model called Mythos that they've been working on, which is the biggest model they've ever trained.

1:18:47Marques Brownlee:It has trillions of parameters. It is this giant kind of behemoth. It's a good name. Yes, very good name. They trained it specifically to be good at coding. Something that they found out after they trained it was not only was it good at coding, but a side effect of being good at coding was that it was extremely good at cybersecurity and finding bugs and things like that. They, you know, were messing around with it. They were like trying to do some cybersec stuff with it. They found thousands of high severity security vulnerabilities, including some in every major operating system and web browser.

1:19:22Marques Brownlee:And it can chain together various different security vulnerabilities to come up with more powerful outcomes. So for an example, in Linux, they found various different vulnerabilities that allowed you to have admin access to any Linux computer by chaining together a bunch of these different bugs that is in the Linux kernel. That's combo. Combo. Get comboed. The scary thing, too, is that it did it autonomously. Autonomously. Like just by itself. Allegedly. Allegedly. All of this is alleged, by the way, because they're not releasing this to the public. David and I were talking about how in the Mythos release paper stuff, like there were a few things.

1:19:59Marques Brownlee:System card, yeah. Yeah, there were a few things they described as unprompted, which were like basically prompted. Definitely prompted. So it's like you got to take all this a little bit of a grain of salt. But the system card, which is kind of like this. It's like 200 and something pages of like what happened during their testing process of this new model. There are various things that were kind of interesting that happened, but that they definitely kind of hyped up a little bit to catch more headlines. Like, for example, they put Mythos in the sandbox environment and they instructed it to break out of the sandbox environment.

1:20:31Marques Brownlee:And it did. And, you know, in the little there's this little like what's what's it called when you put a little ticker above it that says like 10 and then lower down. It's like this is what 10 means. What's that called? Oh, annotation. Yeah, annotation. They put an annotation and they were like it, you know, autonomously broke out of here. You're talking about footnotes? A footnote. Yeah. Sorry, footnote. Not an annotation. That was the most abstract way I've ever heard it. I'm just thinking about it in my head. Yeah. So in that one, they had said, like, the security researcher only realized that had broken out of the sandbox when he received an unprompted email from the model telling it had broken out of the sandbox.

1:21:09Marques Brownlee:And I was like, well, OK, that is kind of crazy. But at the same time, like you said it said when he received an email while he was in the park eating a sandwich, which is like, why did you say that? And then the other part was like it was not just prompted to break out. It was prompted to let them know. Yeah. So it's like, you know, it's it was supposed to. Yeah. It's crazy that is able to do that. Like it was able to run JavaScript and figure out a way to like break out of the sandbox by running specific JavaScript things, which like no one's supposed to be able to do. but regardless um anyway so because this model they found to be so powerful they formed this alliance called project glasswing which is this multi-company security effort where they're giving mythos to a number of different companies because they have found major security vulnerabilities in every major os and most of the platforms like and apps in the world so anyway they're also giving access to 40 different organizations to use Mythos Previews to be able to secure their environments before this kind of cybersecurity AI agent is unleashed on the world because I think if there's one thing we know it's that if you make software and you say we're not going to make this available to the public it will eventually become available to the public either because you decide to eventually release it or because someone else hacks you or because your open AI or Google eventually develops an agent that's just as powerful and can do the same things.

1:22:38Marques Brownlee:So what they're trying to do now is they're basically trying to secure major software before agents come out that can find vulnerabilities in all of this software. There was also a bug in OpenBSD that has been present for 27 years that nobody knew about that is able to crash any machine. So yeah, pretty big vulnerabilities there. There was also one in FFMPEG, which is like the video encoder decoder. Yeah, I'm going to do a terrible thing uses. Exactly. It's just, yeah, it's exactly. Sorry. You explained it so much better than I was going to be able to. But yeah, it's code that's present in most software that is able to encode and decode videos.

1:23:19Marques Brownlee:Because why would you write it yourself when you can just pull it off the shelf? So yeah, essentially most software, it turns out, had zero day vulnerabilities. It took a robot to figure out. Yeah. So I think that the kind of scary thing about stuff like this is that part of the AI race is that there are companies that will say, well, if Anthropic is not going to release this, we're going to develop a model that's just as powerful and we're going to release it because we want to gain market share. That's what people are freaked out about. And so that's why Anthropic is trying to secure this stuff ahead of time.

1:23:51Marques Brownlee:In my opinion, I don't think they should have even put out the blog post before they did a lot more work on this. But it's possible. That's where my alarm bells go off. Yeah. Why would you even tell anyone about this? Because it got leaked. That's what I was going to. Yeah. I think the main reason why they ended up like talking about it was because it got leaked. Oh, yeah. They leaked the whole source code. Exactly who I want in charge of cybersecurity. Right. I know. They leaked Opus source code. Yeah. And in Opus, they found references to this thing called Mythos. So everyone was like, what the hell is Anthropic Mythos?

1:24:26It could have just been like nothing. Don't worry about it.

1:24:27Marques Brownlee:Yeah. They also had little characters that you could dance around and you could have on your computer, which is arguably more important. The disclaimer that David and I, when we were talking about this, David and I carpool to work on Wednesdays together. So we talk about all the pod stuff. But the thing that David and I really wanted to talk about is just that like it's as much as this seems legit and seems freakadicky, you know, they have a financial interest in lying. So maybe they're lying. Maybe they're not. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, they got, you know, 12 large corporations and 40 organizations and they they have all these quotes and they have people in the video talking about how important it was.

1:25:04Marques Brownlee:One of the best security researchers in the world said that while he's been using mythos, he's found more bugs than in his entire career. Yeah, no, definitely. It definitely seems pretty legit. But I just also know like you should take all this. I've been listening to Sam Altman saying he's one second away from curing cancer for the past two and a half years. And so, you know, yeah, I'll take it all with a grain of salt. Don't worry. He bought a podcast. We're all good. Oh my God, dude. Yeah. Speaking of safety. Speaking of safety. That's good. That's good. Good job. Nicely done. I saw this article, this release today, and I just thought it was a cool little article.

1:25:41Skoda, the car company, is designing a bell for your bike for the sole purpose of being able to penetrate active noise canceling. So the car company released a new bell, and they are talking in their video about the release of it in London, a city with 1.5 million bike commuters per day, a city where 54 % of all headphones sold have active noise canceling and has also seen a 24 % rise in cyclist pedestrian collisions. They decided that they needed to work on this new bell because while there are obviously so many variables between pedestrians, cyclists, automobiles and everything, they believe that the mix of smartphone usage and active noise canceling is being detrimental to situational awareness and recognizing alert sounds.

1:26:26So what they decided they had to do is find a way to make bells on your bike noticeable by somebody wearing noise canceling headphones. Um, but also this can, so there's this big study, we'll link it in the show notes. Um, Ellis could potentially make me help me explain this better, but they essentially tested the top six most popular headphones with active noise canceling to try and find a frequency that, Ellis, is this the easiest way of describing it? Active noise canceling essentially looks at the frequencies that are coming in and then plays the reverse version of it to cancel out the noise.

1:27:04So they found that 750 hertz was a frequency that for whatever reason ANC just wasn't really able to handle in terms of blocking out.

1:27:11Marques Brownlee:They found a bunch of things. They found a few different things. The first is that how cluttered the noise environment that you're in affects what frequencies the ANC is better at canceling out versus others. So when there's a lot of noise going on, certain frequencies are better. When there's not a lot of noise, other frequencies penetrate better. another thing they found was that um tonal frequencies like frequencies that have a clear like bass and then harmonic stack on top of them work better than sounds that are a little bit more random and chaotic and like what we would call noisy uh there's a there's a bunch of interesting but yeah largely that that's the big thing is that in a lot like there are certain situations where 750 hertz works really well and then there are certain situations where i think it was like 1k or 2k or something like that work swish works really well so i thought what it was is that the 750 hertz was the frequency that anc basically was not able to counteract and so that could pierce uh noise canceling headphones isn't it like a super like a base it is so so the reason this is this is called the skoda duo bell is because the 750 hertz can break uh noise cancellation but that is a very low noise for people who are not wearing noise-canceling headphones.

1:28:33So that bell just by itself at 750 hertz probably won't actually alert somebody in an environment that's not wearing the headphones. So that's why the bell has two different frequencies on it. One is over 2000 hertz because that is still a general like bike bell alert sound that people are used to. So people who aren't wearing headphones, it would be crazy to do this whole thing to help people with headphones and then make it worse and not alerting people who aren't wearing the headphones

1:29:01Marques Brownlee:i'm just trying to imagine the sound of a bike chime but in a much lower pitch i don't know if i would i guess it would be interesting to hear like if i'm listening to music and it has bass in it that's gonna sound like a more bass i would assume it's something different you're not used to you're wondering what that sound is maybe they did the way they tested it is through this kind of complicated way they like did virtual reality where one person was walking that's 750 that sounds higher than i thought okay but like if well i guess it's one thing the whole the bell's all mechanical it's not digital 2000's pretty high i was listening to these before to try and see what they sounded like but you also have to think of it it has to be in a bell that goes bring bring bring like um the way they did it is they tested it by a person in virtual reality was wearing noise canceling headphones and was in the in the virtual reality supposed to be doing something on their phone to be paying attention to it it's hard to imagine these as the bike tone that would be but that's much louder and uh and so in their testing they saw found that people wearing ANC headphones heard the bell 22 meters earlier or 5 seconds sooner than an average person biking which is huge so yeah it's something they're testing in London they're planning on expanding it I want it because when we are trying to do water runs in the studio and everyone's wearing headphones I want to try and alert everybody so we should just put it at the front door so we can just ring ring ring ring ring ring and everybody can then know we're going to do a water run.

1:30:36Why were they in VR when they

1:30:37Marques Brownlee:were testing this again? So they get that money money because they weren't just the original testing yeah so they weren't they weren't just being like how well do you hear this they were simulating distractions both in the foreground background and periphery and so they were trying to figure like not just how well can you hear something but how well does the like ear response actually reach your brain because when you're riding a bike you're focused on stuff well I guess not riding when you're in the world they're saying people with headphones are generally also a lot of times looking at their phone and just completely unaware of what's going on yeah yeah yeah um one thing in here though is with all the testing they did create a graph of the airpods mac bose choir comfort sony wx 1000s airpods pro jbl live pro and samsung galaxy buds and they have a graph of how well the mean attenuation is and airpods max just kind of blow everything out of the water i was a little confused by this because they don't they don't say which generation of these they use that sort of frustrated they don't say which Sony's they don't say which AirPod Pros which AirPods Max now there's a new one but I think this happened before that came out like last week but yeah none of them have a number true the new Galaxy Buds are way better than the old ones at noise cancelling specifically Apple's got to be very annoyed at this chart because they said AirPod Pro and AirPod Max and as we know Apple's very specific There's a lot about the Sony WX1000s.

1:32:12They just get, even they were like, this name sucks. I'm not listing the whole thing in it.

1:32:16Marques Brownlee:Samsung Galaxy Bud. And just JBL Live Pro, all lower cases. A part of it might also be because they're trying to like not make it about the individual headphones. Like that's not the point. The point is just headphones in general. But the point of our tech podcast is to make it about. They do break it down. Guys, what's my least favorite thing in the world? The noise of a beesassle. It's frequency response charts. It's frequency response charts because there's so much information about noise canceling that this graph does not show. So I'm also not mad that because you would not be able to look as much as I want to be like, Elvis is right, AirPods Max or the goat.

1:32:51Marques Brownlee:But it's like, for example, like the speed of the drivers, like how fast those drivers can move in and out will affect how much of sudden sounds are able to be canceled. uh the excursion of the drivers how far spatially they can move from their resting point is going to affect like how much like really low booms are able to be can you know there's a lot of other features that you can't just be like x frequency is canceled y amount um yeah if anyone ever sends me a frequency response chart block my number bro what do you mean it's kind of like an mtf i said what i said it's kind of like an mtf chart for lenses it's like when people are like the sound stage of headphones.

1:33:32Marques Brownlee:I'm like, miss me. Straight up miss me. Well, I have many thoughts, but we have to get going. I just want to try. I want the bell, and I want you to see what it sounds like. Let's get it. Andrew, you and I, we always want the bell, baby. But, you know. What does that mean? Taco Bell. Oh, got it, got it, got it. Yeah, same. I would be interested in obtaining this. I don't know how we will, because it's only in London right now. Skoda, if you're listening. I would fly to learn that Anyway Adam do you want to transition it to us And to your rant Speaking of things that I'm angry about There you go You're angry at bells No not really More so No I'm mad at Ellis' frequency response But also About Pixel 10a Coming out in Japan in blue Okay I have a few questions here So if you don't know the Pixel 10a got a japan exclusive variant that is like a nice blue color it has its own cool uh icons and wallpapers and all this stuff yeah it's neat fine i'm confused because isn't this just the pixel 10 color like the blue looks exactly the same oh that's where that's where you get triggered the design people okay i know such a specific it is a very specific blue and it has a special name and everything but i'm looking at it and again we don't have the actual device so I'm looking at it on the screen and I'm looking at the Pixel 10 that we have here in the office and I'm just like, it's the same picture.

1:35:02Marques Brownlee:Yeah. I don't know what it is about these companies that they sort of over, maybe they overdo like how much they think we care about the exact color. You know what Motorola does? They do like a, they have a partnership with Pantone and they'll do a special edition phone that is in the Pantone color of the year. As if I've ever met anyone who even knows what that is. Like, we do have designers here. You don't remember Cosmic Latte? No. And the Pantone color of the year? I know that there are people who care about the Pantone color of the year, and those people are a very specific person who, you know, pays attention to colors and new things like that, and that's very exciting to them.

1:35:38Marques Brownlee:But does Motorola think that there is, like, a huge audience that's like, oh, man, I can't wait for this Pantone color of the year to be a phone? I guess they do think that because we get that every year. And so here comes Google, and they're like, we've got this very specific blue. and no no no it's not the same as a pixel 10 blue it's a certain what are they calling it isai blue am i saying that right i isul i think it's named after the designer yeah yeah it seems like this is less about the color and more about the collaboration yeah which that's my next point that's a really cool collaboration that dude is like a great artist why do we get wicked and spongebob themes here in the states while japan gets this i think you know the answer to that question because people here know about this and people there know about that how many how many times do we reference this guy and how many times do we reference spongebob that's fair that's fair um also a little annoyed just generally about pixel availability just because it just came to mexico like this past year there's multiple countries where not all the features are available it's like pixel stuff is just all over the place and it's very confusing um but more so the the main reason why this caught my attention was because when i saw the article and i clicked the link to watch the video the video popped up in four by three and it's from google japan youtube channel with a four by three video and i was like what google japan is so stylish the arts yeah if you go to google japan's youtube channel everything they do is so awesome yeah but every other well not every other video the few other ones that i clicked on are just regular like 16 by 9 yeah this one was four by three and i think it has to do with like the artsiness of it but i found it so interesting because Google is like the most corporate corporate company.

1:37:15Marques Brownlee:Yeah. They're not as corporate as like Microsoft though. I would disagree. Really? I think they're very corporate in different ways. I guess. But I think they still have this like idea of whimsy from back in the day but they are super corporate. And the fact that I clicked on a video and it was 4x3 I was like whoa. Yeah. That was my brand. I have a correction. Cosmic Latte was not a Pantone. How dare you? Don't worry, there's already seven comments. I'm so sorry. Cosmic Latte was, remember like 10 years ago, they were like, this is the average color of the universe. Whoa. Cosmic Latte. How do you guys not remember this?

1:37:50Marques Brownlee:This is like the most marquette. It's space and color. That's, I, if you can rail against frequency response charts, I'm railing against average color of the universe. That's the most useless thing I've ever heard. What? The average of the universe? That sounds like something you'd be interested in. The average of the universe is zero. It's black. It's nothing. Is that a color? Not according to Johns Hopkins University, bro. I mean, there's obviously the core of a neutron star, which is the brightest thing ever. The average of the universe is infrared. No, it's cosmic latte. Is it in the visible light range, is what you're saying?

1:38:27Marques Brownlee:Is the average of the universe? Oh, you mean if you compressed it into the visible light range? That seems insane, I guess. You know, Marques, I would read about... I don't understand this stuff. I don't understand. For those wondering, the Pantone color of the year. It's freaking tan, bro. It sucks. It's lame. No, it's blue. No, it's not. Cloud Dancer. This year? That's lit. 11-4201. What? What happened to cream? Yeah, all of a sudden, I'm a big fan of Pantone. That's awesome. No. Adam, I looked up the only other Google Japan video I could ever think of, which is their 2022 April Fool's joke, which was they just made a keyboard where all of the letters are one really long stick.

1:39:07And funny enough, it starts in four by three, and then when they announce the board and start swiping down, it expands to widescreen to put more of the keyboard. Damn, that's so cool.

1:39:18Marques Brownlee:Yeah, that was an April Fool's Day thing. Before we move on, do you guys know about Klein Blue? What is Klein Blue? There's an artist named Yves Klein who made this painting with this blue paint that they mixed themselves. and then they trademarked it and now they have their own blue. And when you say it, it's like, that's stupid. Like you can't use this color blue unless you pay this guy, Yves Klein. But then you look at the blue and you're like, damn, that's a good blue. This is also a bonus episode. If you click on the Pantone color of the year, it's like, please, no more. Here's a paywall.

1:39:52Marques Brownlee:Sign up for 15 ,000 colors. What? Dude, Cloud Dancer, which is the color of the year this year, it's just like, it's beige. It's literally beige. There's a really awesome article. But it's a very specific. I don't care. It's so many colors. There's an awesome article, I think, by Mia Sato on The Verge, where she went to, like, the Pantone Color of the Year party. Wow. See? This is... That's the people... That sounds lit. Think of the person who would go. No, no, no, no. I'd go to that. I would normally go to that if it was anything but beige. You would normally go to the Pantone Color of the Year party?

1:40:26Marques Brownlee:Of course! Would you not? That sounds pretty sweet. that sounds better than every South by Southwest party I've ever heard of I think Pantone gets a bad rep because they're one of those companies that you know is evil well that's the thing is like I get the idea like yeah you're paywalling colors but also like thank god they exist dude because like especially like right now for example right this should be a bonus episode I'm trying to I got a suit jacket for a great price on eBay and I'm trying to find matching pants and I cannot find pants that are the exact same color. Like this color matching has just been and the whole point of Pantone is standardized.

1:41:03Marques Brownlee:So if you see something on the internet, you can just read that's color 89627. You open up your book that you paid 10 million dollars for. And you can't leave in the sun. Yeah, I can't leave in the sun. And then you find 89267 and then you go, okay, now I'm certain. And it standardizes it across different materials, different finishes, and this whole thing. We accidentally know way too much about this and maybe should actually be a bonus episode, but I am also fine with trolling Tim and people who are listening to this by saying they're paywalling colors. This month's bonus episode is a Q &A. Link in the description to ask your questions.

1:41:36Please give us questions because we don't have any. You think people are still listening? I know. If you're still listening, then we want your questions because you are in this with us.

1:41:44Marques Brownlee:So please. We have a beautiful domain. You can go to waveformsurvey.com We're not reusing that at all. Not at all. We've never used that before. We paid for it. But it's worth, you know, you gotta utilize it. So to be clear, we are going to be doing a bonus episode soon. If you are still listening this far on the podcast, you are the type of person we want to answer the questions from. Exactly. Go to waveformsurvey.com, ask us questions. On an upcoming bonus episode, we will answer those questions. But you know what else has questions and answers? What is that, Ellis? You already know. Oh, I left the fader down.

1:42:19Trivia. Trivia, dude. So we just spoke about Anthropic discovering all these vulnerabilities in Linux. specifically. It's just one of the examples they used. But Linus Torvalds, when he initially made Linux, debated naming it something else. Was it A. Freaks, a combination of free, freak, and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix system. B. Weenix, changing the in Unix to we. C. Tiger, which was the mascot at the University of Helsinki where he was at at the time. Or D. Torvus, a combination of his last name and his first name. Can you reread the first one? Yo, your Weenix is showing. Freaks.

1:43:01F-R-E-A-X. No, but what was the reason? It's a mix of free and freaks. Freak and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix-like system. I like that it's a combination of free and freak when it's just freak.

1:43:16Marques Brownlee:Hey, it's a tough one. What is that? Or is it F-R-E-E-K? F-R-E-A-X. Oh. Free Freak. It's a nested acronym, bro. It's fun. Wow. I like that we have multiple choice trivia. Thank you. It narrows my odds to 25%. Slightly above zero. Can I say, when I was looking up Artemis stuff, the number of how, the furthest distance they were away from the Earth, and I kept being like, read it four times because I assumed that was going to be a trivia question. I'm really upset. This is the first time I was doing research and I was like, that's going to be a trivia question. You have to remember. Do you remember it?

1:43:51Was it 252 ,000? 252 and I think it was like 750 or something.

1:43:55Marques Brownlee:That would have been a good trivia question. Well, this is - At least now we know. Now that we're mentioning multiple choice, the reason why I wanted specifically to do multiple choices this week is because YouTube has a feature where you, dear listener on YouTube, can play along and guess what the trivia answers are. What? If it doesn't work, then ignore all of this. Is it new? As of like a month ago, and I've been meaning to bring it up for me and Ellis, But Ellis today just happened to pick a multiple choice question. I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to pick one, too, so we can test this out.

1:44:25Marques Brownlee:So they can do this, but they still can't make an actual timestamp UI. The reason I knew is, remember that headache you woke up with a few days ago? He wishes he doesn't. No, I neural linked us, bro. We broke into your house. Me and Elon, we broke into your house. We neural linked you. Yeah, well, Glasswing found a couple of vulnerabilities in that. I neural linked me, too. Sorry, that's the word I left out. So we're linked neuraly. Okay. 252756. I was four miles. Is that the Pantone color? Yes. We'll be right back. We're right. We're leaving. It's beige, but we'll be back.

1:45:07Welcome back. Whoop update from my rant last week, which first of all, I want to say if you enjoy Whoop and you were mad at me for saying that, I'm sorry. Enjoy your Whoop band. I'm way more mad at whoop the company and their pricing and how insufferable their ceo is um but after i ranted about that a bunch of fun stuff came out about whoop which really people were amped that i ranted about it despite i didn't know what was going on but whoop is in the process of suing a company called bevel um who is very similar to an app like athletic athletic that you use essentially an app that can take, uh, you know, fitness and activity data from whatever activity tracker you're using and concluded into different types of sleep data and strain data and recovery, whatever, all those different things that every single other thing uses, but just tells you that they're better at it.

1:46:00Um, but some of the reasons for why they're suing them is just very funny um do you remember the uh fine bros yeah the fine brothers when they tried to they tried to trademark reacts yeah because they long story but they wanted to own the concept they basically wanted to own the word react yeah yeah just remember that and some of the what i'll say here so bevel released a video going over a couple of the things of when whoop sent them a cease and assist and now this most recent uh lawsuits wow total brain we are very far into this episode and it is showing um so in their first season to assist they asked bevel to disable dark mode and change the name of strain and recovery as the names of metrics in their app because i guess those are things that only whoop can do strain and recovery strain and recovery so the funny thing about this is uh whoop only has one color background which is dark a dark gray uh bevel has light mode and dark mode like every single other app that's ever been made um but and and light mode is their default but i guess whoop doesn't like their dark mode because it looks too similar to whoops um and they also don't like the name strain and recovery because i guess those Those are metrics that Whoop wants to own.

1:47:21Marques Brownlee:Those are things that they've named. The compilation of those metrics might be totally different in Bevel's app, but they probably feel like they want, like the word, like everyone I know who has a Whoop is like, what's your recovery score? There's my recovery score. How's your recovery? That's all they talk about is the recovery. So I can imagine an upstart trying to steal users from Whoop also using the word recovery very intentionally. It's one of those things though, when you start focusing too much on a word that has been around forever. Yeah. It's just a pretty common word that fits in there.

1:47:53Marques Brownlee:If you bring your computer into recovery, are they going to sue you? Let's, quick caveat though, and this is not me defending this, but it's a trademark and not a copyright, which means part of the nature of a trademark, if they're attempting to trademark this, they're trademarking its use in a specific method. For example, here's a great example. I could release, I don't know, body battery. No, no. Well, I'm going to take it in another industry. I could release a line of protein supplements that I call Ellis's 1989 super protein. But I cannot sing a song in which I say the line, I would like to party like it's 1989.

1:48:30Marques Brownlee:Because Taylor Swift has the number 1989 trademarked for musical purposes. She does? Yes. You can do that? Yes. I don't like that. So, hey. Wow. That's lame. Yeah. I mean, everyone's going to hate Whoop suing them because obviously punching down looks terrible. But at the same time, there's going to be a lot of companies, and I have no idea what Bevel's doing. I should probably be more informed on it. But there are going to be companies that are going to try to specifically steal users from Whoop probably by mimicking a lot of their features. Here's a couple of their claims that I'll read out loud.

1:49:03They claim that their home screen looks too much like theirs, that both apps use rings to represent user strain and recovery scores near the top. Those rings are colorful circular bars that increase clockwise. And there's a coaching feature in a rectangle using rounded edges and a dark gray background. So rings with colorful, I mean, like every health metric ever. Fippet uses it. Apple uses it. Garmin uses it. All rings with colors because colors and strain, green and red are pretty common. Green, yellow, red is how most of that happens. A rectangle using rounded edges is a hilarious way of saying a button.

1:49:40every button ever that's been made um they said that bevel's app updated the home screen and uh it's obviously confusing and substantially similar to the whoop app home screen the only problem so the way the home screen looks it has three circles the three different scores on the top when you go into it bevel originally had it separated into three rings and whoop for a long time was actually only one ring and then updated their app after bevel already had that and now has the three rings to the point where when they updated it there was people commenting on it saying like looks like you're copying Bevel but now they're suing them saying it looks too much the same there's a section that says both apps use a crescent moon icon to demote sleep

1:50:23Marques Brownlee:denote you mean denote yeah sorry but to indicate sleep I think a moon and sleep is pretty synonymous with each other maybe some Z's yeah and I think my biggest thing here is which is I'm sure in the trademark lawyer world, totally fine, but kind of stupid, I think, is saying the design's similar and could potentially confuse people into Whoop's UI. But Whoop is a thing that only exists when you are using the product. Nobody is getting confused if you don't have a Whoop band and go into the Bevel app. Like, it literally has to... Is this Whoop? Yeah. No one's, like, buying a Whoop, like, you know, using it and doing the setup, and then accidentally in Bevel and being like, oh, s***.

1:51:10Marques Brownlee:Also, is that really a problem? Like, they're not stealing users. The copyright thing is usually like, are you replacing this or are you supplementing it? If you are replacing revenue that's coming to that company, then it's a problem. If you're not and it's just supplemental, it's usually not as much of a problem. Well, they're a competitor, so yeah. Yeah, well, does Bevel have like a band or anything or does it just take your existing fitness? As far as I know, it's only an app. Can it take the metrics from Whoop? Probably, but I don't know that for sure. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Whoop doesn't let that.

1:51:43I was going to say, Whoop probably has that locked down. I don't know how athletic and bevel work. I just know that they can be used with different trackers, whether it's a ring, whether it's a watch, whether it's anything, but possibly not Whoop.

1:51:57Marques Brownlee:Possibly not Whoop. I'm not sure. So yeah, I don't know. This really just feels a lot like the Fine Bros trying to trademark. Well, we know how that ended. Yeah, it didn't end great. This is, I mean, this is great for Bevel because they were all over Twitter and probably got way. I've never heard of them before and probably more people know about Bevel now. Yeah. I hope it doesn't go too deep, but I think trademarking recovery and strain seems like an absolutely insane thing and a really lame thing to do, which feels pretty on point for Whoop. Quick clarification. While Taylor Swift does have the number 1989 trademarked, the specific trademark violation is she also has the phrase party like it's 1989.

1:52:35Marques Brownlee:Oh. She does have the phrase, the number 1989 trademarked, as well as I found out in making sure I was correct on that. She has the phrase this sick beat trademarked. No. Hell yeah. That's because it's the best part of the song. Is it the way she says it? Because she says it's special. Is it this sick beat? I think trademarks are so stupid. Trademarks are really stupid, but I do understand why they're in. You have to be able to defend something. Well, and it's it's they're different than like they're different than copyrights because it's your right to do business as a thing, essentially. You know what I mean?

1:53:09Marques Brownlee:Like, I don't know. I think I also just want to say Taylor Swift was born on December 13th, 1989. And to imply that she was partying at that age is just bull. She was at the most. She was writhing. You can't prove that. That's a party to some people. Wasn't even sentient. She was not even sentient yet. Also, she was training her AI model in the early stages. On a list of recent trademarks, she had recently gotten female rage colon the musical, which I don't even know what that's about. Yeah. But comment down below if you do know what that's about. But you know what I do know lots about? What is that?

1:53:48Marques Brownlee:The answers to the trivia questions that you wrote? With the fader up this time. Nice. I like that. I like that. Waveform, episode 345, trivia question number one. That was me pretending to be Jason. Derulo? That's a sick username, j.json Derulo. I think someone already has that. That has to be a real thing, right? That's pretty good. We get sued. Guys, where does Anthropix Project Glasswing get its name? A, an experimental F1 rear wing design from the ground effect era. B, a Central American butterfly with transparent wings. C, a type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopies.

1:54:34Marques Brownlee:Or D, it's an acronym, general layer analysis, excuse me, general layer analysis screening with integrated neural GPTs. The whole time you were saying glasswing, I just kept thinking of ducktails for some reason. That's all I could think of. Don't know why. Is there a darkwing? Darkwing duck? Yeah, darkwing duck. Okay, that's what I was thinking of. Wow, what a reference. Wow, we all said the same thing. What'd you guys say? All three of us said butterfly. David drew a tooth for some reason. Guys, I think that... That means I'm getting worse. I never claim to be an artist. Because you're all correct.

1:55:14Marques Brownlee:On the blog post, they have a picture of a butterfly. Oh, boo. I didn't go to it during the podcast. I know, I know. But am I losing my sauce? No, thank God, Ellis. I used to deliver four bangers we never get points we need points all three of you got points so it's as if none of you got points I still failed it's called glasswing from the butterfly because none of those other three things are real I made them all up this is from Anthropics actual website one up here and what does the one being down there. A footnote. The metaphor can be applied in two ways. The butterfly's transparent wings let it hide in plain sight, much like the vulnerabilities discussed in this post.

1:56:06Marques Brownlee:Semicolon. They also allow it to evade harm like the transparency we're advocating for in our approach. Transparency. Wow. Wow. They background their way into that or what? They probably asked Claude. Somebody got a raise for coming up with that line. Claude got a raise. What should we name this, Claude? All right. Quick update on the score after that correct question. Yeah. Marquez with 21. Andrew with 22. David in the lead with 25. But I'm not a rat. Hey, that's trademark. That's trademark. That's trademark. Careful, careful, careful. All right. When he initially made Linux, Linus Torvalds debated naming it something else.

1:56:51Was it A. Freaks, B. Weenix, C. Tiger or D.

1:57:01Marques Brownlee:Torvus? You know what's crazy? There's one thing that Adam left off there, which he was also considering, which was Linus Tech Tips. He was way early.

1:57:18Flip him and read. What do we got? Wow.

1:57:21Marques Brownlee:Wow, you guys are locked in today. Yeah, we're locked in. We are neural linked. Yeah. All of us said D, Torvalds. Nope. Was it B? It was not B. Oh, good. It was also not C. No way, it's freaks. It was A, freaks. No way. Yep. Well, I'm glad he didn't do that. F-R-E-A-X? Yes. That is simply a bad acronym. Is that a reference to phone freaking, or is that just like you're a freak? What's phone freaking? Really fast, 30-second definition. phone old analog like landline phone dialers actually worked by tones like you have a thing like each button creates a tone and then that tone you know does a program on the other side of the thing so someone realized you could hack into phones by generating tones and that was called phone freaking was P-H-R-E-A-K-I-N-G yeah it was the cool version it was Taylor's version careful David lawsuit lawsuit lawsuit lawsuit And with that, the podcast was finally over.

1:58:24Marques Brownlee:Again, if you have questions for us, the comment section is always open. But if you made it this far, you can, of course, go to waveformsurvey.com and ask us whatever you want because we're going to do a bonus episode where we actually answer those questions. So take your time. Come up with the best questions you possibly can. Leave your whatever questions down below, but come up with the best questions for waveformsurvey.com, and they'll be answered on a bonus episode. Other than that, thanks for watching. Hopefully the astronauts touch down safely in the ocean. Wait, that's waveform with vowels, not without vowels.

1:58:55Marques Brownlee:That's wave, W-A-V-E-F-O-R-M. Good clarification. Hopefully now they've found it. I don't know whatever freaky website you went to before, but now they found the correct survey website. All right. Catch you next week. Peace. Waveform was produced by Adam Alina and Ellis River, and partner with Vox Media Podcast Network, and a director of music was created by Vance Hill. You do that early, Adam. Speed run.

1:59:22Marques Brownlee:Are you looking at a look at glass? No, I'm looking at Cosmic Alate, which is the average. See, you have to read this very carefully. It describes the average color of the galaxy of the universe as perceived by a typical human observer, which to me says that the average is not actually in the visible wavelength, typically.