Anna Saccone on Motherhood, Guilt & Raising a Trans Child in the Public Eye

32:26And I really did, I tried to recover so many times and failed. I tried the more traditional therapy route after I, again, after I had had my second baby. It helped to an extent, but, and so I physically recovered. I was not doing any, I was not, you know, engaging in any eating disorder behaviors anymore. But my brain was still sick. I still felt like I had an eating disorder, even if I was eating right, and I wasn't making myself sick and I wasn't, I was still fixating over food though, if I'm really honest. But I remember him saying as a professional, he said, you know, this is probably something that you're just going to have to deal with on some level for the rest of your life.

33:14And to me, that felt like a death sentence. It felt like I am trapped no matter what, even when I'm in my nineties, I'm still going to have this might, like that is hell to me. And I stopped seeing him and I had another baby and then I had another baby and then I relapsed again because the brain wasn't fixed. You know, the mindset wasn't there. And so after that relapse, I was like, OK, I need to do it for real now. And I got an eating disorder recovery coach and she was based in the States. So it was like over Zoom. But she had recovered herself and she had experience and she had experience with bulimia.

34:04And she was a woman in her 50s with two teenage sons. And I was like, yes, this is what I need. And I made that mind shift switch. It worked. Something clicked. Working with her, because it wasn't the more traditional therapy, like I wasn't ever looking back. It was more looking forwards. Just really was, there was something about that that clicked for me. And I think it was that coupled with the fact that she had herself had experience and she was like a beacon of hope. And I remember her saying to me, I just want you to know that I struggled the way that you did and I never think about food anymore.

34:44And I was like, what? I want that. Yeah. It was just reprogramming my brain. It was changing those neural pathways. It was rewiring them. That was the deep work that I did compared to the first time that really, really fixed it. She was right. I really don't have those thoughts anymore. And I'm so shocked by how normal I am around food now and how drastic the change is. Because I really did think that this is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. Absolutely. And I can't even imagine living through it for 15 years. Now, bulimia in particular is it's a cycle of eating large amounts of food and then trying to get rid of the food, right?

35:31But being sick or using laxatives. But orthorexia is the obsession of eating pure food, often causing anxiety or guilt when unhealthy foods are eaten. Yeah. So just so I understand with orthorexia, you're saying when you're saying clean food, so like what, like no carb, no fat, no sugar. Is that the idea? For me, it was no sugar. Well, not so much no sugar, no gluten, no dairy, no just anything that was any way like deemed bad or bad for you. And that has been something that I knew that I would have to clear that up. I would have to fully recover from that if I ever wanted to do anything like what I'm doing right now, which is studying nutrition.

36:19I couldn't do the two together because it would be just so, that would be messy, you know. I see. I needed to have a clean mind. Pardon the pun. But I did. I needed to have a clean mind. And I needed to go in with a mindset that was healthy and balanced in order to approach nutrition properly. So then, Anna, what would you advise to someone who's going through orthorexia or bulimia at this moment? I honestly think that getting some form of a recovery coach is the best way forward because it gives you a roadmap. There is hope and, you know, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And just because this is your reality right now does not mean that you're going to struggle for the rest of your life with it.

37:08That's powerful. That's powerful. All right. So you are battling, though, bulimia as you begin the YouTube journey. Yes. Right. We've had some people who've been phenomenal on YouTube here. You know, Dan TDM, Tommy In It, Talia Mar. And one thing that I noticed was a common thread is that there was a moment where they didn't realize they could earn money. They didn't realize they can grow brand and social status through YouTube. But the moment they did, they became obsessed with it, obsessed with the analytics, obsessed with uploading, obsessed. Is that the same thing that happened to you and Jonathan?

37:53Not for me. Oh, not for you. No, I have, like I said, I've never been really a very good career woman. I just haven't. But Jonathan was the opposite because, of course, it became his career. And so and he is that personality type that just will obsess over the analytics and the data. And, you know, and he he loves it. He and he loves creating. And it's just something that came very naturally. And he's the provider, too. He, at the end of the day, he saw it as a way to provide for our family as it grew. Really, there's nothing special or different about us. We're just normal people. And I think that has been at the crux of how we create our content and who we create our content for.

38:42I think the people that know us and have followed us for a long time, I hope they know that, that what you see is what you get. And I think I did, of course, take on a lot of the speculation and a lot of the criticism because I'm just type A and I'm a perfectionist and I would take it to heart. Certainly in the beginning, it was something that I struggled with. You know, I struggled with people not liking me or people not agreeing with me on certain things. And so I would try and change myself to make other people happy. So you would read the comments, see a negative comment, and then try to...

39:27Yeah. So what's an example of that, a comment that you would have seen back then and then adjusted because of it? Down to, I remember our wedding. I was so stressed. I broke out in spots all over my face because I was so stressed. and my skin was probably the worst it had ever been on my wedding day. And I definitely think it had to do with the stress that I was under. And it was purely because every move I made, because we were documenting it, I was like, well, this is the wedding dress that I'm going to buy or this is the type of flower that I want. There were just so many opinions. And I wish now that I would have just done what I wanted, but I was so prodded and pushed and pulled in different directions And I really did listen to what everybody was saying.

40:14So I kind of went along with whatever the majority was saying. I wore my hair the way that people wanted me to. I did my makeup the way that people wanted me to. You know, of course, I was happy to be marrying Jonathan. But I don't know that I was very happy on my wedding day just because of that. I think I had built this up so much that this wedding had to be perfect. Still to this day, people still say things like, oh, well, they didn't kiss on the lips. So that means that, you know, their marriage is doomed. And it was you pick apart every single thing. Why didn't I should have kissed him on the lips?

40:46I didn't know. I was so like there were just so many voices in my head going, you need to do this and you need to do that. And don't forget this and don't forget that. I'm curious how long after the post of that video, which I understand is one of the most viewed videos, you know, within all of the videos that you and Jonathan have put out, one of the most viewed videos. how soon after the post of that video did you then begin looking at the comments oh it was the next day the next day yeah because we were vlogging every day so poor Jonathan I mean I don't know how he did it but he filmed edited and uploaded that video the next day so his own wedding video we didn't have a videographer we couldn't afford it we didn't have a videographer we didn't have a photographer it was a very I mean it was in Italy so that's where we spent the most of our money because I really wanted it to be in Italy because I wanted to be, you know, close to where my dad is from.

41:38So that was where our budget went. But other than that, we didn't spend anything on any other extras. It was just that. It was the location. Look at that. Do you think that that wedding video was the beginning of the snowball in a positive way in terms of the growth of this business that you and Jonathan were creating? I think so. And also probably when I got pregnant. Okay. Yeah. And I agree around misconceptions because even when we had Dan TDM on and I think it was Forbes had said at one point he had made more money than definitely anyone in the UK, but it was, I think, almost anyone in the world.

42:16And I gave him the number and he said, well, that's what Forbes said. That's not actually what the number was. But to the degree that you're comfortable, can you give almost what that range was early on through to the heyday just so that people understand what not only monetarily, but I would imagine that you're also getting a lot of non-monetary. You're getting donations and people offsetting by offering certain things. So what was that? If you think about in the beginning, what was it? And then at the height, what was that? I think in the beginning, and again, I'm not good with numbers, but I think in the beginning, we were making like our rent money.

43:03So it was like a thousand a month, something like that. This is the flat in Bormitt. Yeah. And not the great area of Bormitt. Yeah. Okay. So about that. And then I would say from just YouTube alone, heyday, probably like 60 ,000 a month. Wow. That's not bad, though. Yeah. I know. That is not bad. No. And I love how you said it, YouTube alone. We're not counting all this other stuff. But all right. Even though I know maths is not your thing. And notice that's the British in me because I'm saying maths, not math. Like we would say in Baltimore. Yeah, I know. From a content perspective, what was it that you think attracted people to want to watch you two?

43:52We shared everything. And by everything, I mean the true nature of ourselves, like who we really were as people. We shared our opinions about things. We shared our, you know, just even like little nicknames that we had for each other. You felt like you were really in our home with us. And then as we had kids, same thing. It was just like, you know, you really felt like you got to know. We really did share a lot. And of course, there were always things that you would hold back on. But the internet was a different space back then. It wasn't the space that it is now. Cancel culture was not a thing.

44:33and it was a lot less scary in the sense that it felt more welcoming it felt more just homemade or something you know it was like people making little videos of their lives and putting them and nothing was a production nothing was it wasn't like tv and so I think that's what people liked about it was that it wasn't produced it was just real like my pregnancy even all of my pregnancies documenting that that was something that people were so interested in because they were like we can read these pregnancy books you know what to expect but we're getting it from you and you're you're actually telling the story like as it's happening to you so it's more real yes and i think that's what people really really loved to watch is that like week by week i would update people on what I was going through and my symptoms.

45:26But, you know, I didn't also didn't want to just continue having tons of babies. I loved my four babies, but I didn't want to keep going. So I think everything has a shelf life. Right. Right. And I don't like to throw shade at anybody. I think everybody can do whatever they want. But I have seen it with maybe some of the newer channels that have started where it's drama and it's, you know, craziness. And you have to, It feels like now you have to be crazier and even more extreme. And that's just not who we are. And so we were like, you know what? We're going to finish Saccone Jolie's and we're just going to park it because it was a beautiful journey and we loved it.

46:08But we don't want to go down any of these paths of like ruining our family just for views or just for drama, you know? And so we pivoted. and Jonathan is very resourceful and he is an ideas man and he's always wanted to do kids content. He's always wanted, he actually set up a channel back in, I think it was 2015 or 2016, just with the kids. Oh my goodness. It was called Friendliest Friends and he wrote a kids book too. He's just the ultimate fun dad, you know, and he would take them and do like little music videos with them. Again, just like being creative, coming up with little ideas and he couldn't really keep up with it because he was still doing zaccone jolis yes but now that's his his thing is that yeah and he loves to make and the kids come up with ideas and they're and it's you know it's also it's great because it gives us our privacy yes and no one can tell us i mean nobody could tell me what our kids ate for breakfast this morning or what their favorite colors are or, you know, who their friends are, where they go to school.

47:18And that's been really nice because... To form that shield around the kids. Yes. Yeah. That has been great because I think that's something that we really didn't think about when we first started because it wasn't anything that we had to think about. You know, not that many people were watching. And then I guess as things snowball and as the views build and you suddenly get to this place where press is getting involved and, you know, you've got PR people and you've got managers and you've got teams around you and, you know, magazines or papers or printing stuff about you that isn't necessarily true.

47:57That's weird, especially when you go from being just a very normal, ordinary person. Yes. Can we even talk about that? Because this is part of the public figure piece that ends up being the place of struggle for so many people. The vast majority of people who come on We Need to Talk are public figures. And when it comes to dealing with criticism at that level, it becomes challenging. Yeah. So when you think about the criticism, what largely do you think has been the criticism? And where do you think the critics have been right, but where have they also been wrong? I think probably the most criticism that we've ever had is surrounding one of our children in particular because of their gender identity.

48:53Okay. And that has been difficult because, and Jonathan can probably articulate this better than I can, but I think how he would describe it, and he's 100 % right, is when you become the parent of a trans child, you become a victim of abuse yourself. self and you don't sign up for it but it happens because whether you like it or not if you have a trans child and you support them you get called things like pedophile groomer and it happens overnight like it happens really quick and it's very confronting because it's like I've never been called these names before. I don't even know what half of them mean.

49:47And that's all because of the fact that you have decided to support your child. So the thing is, when that happens, you take it because you're protecting your child and you become their protective shield. And so I don't know any parents of trans children that wouldn't take that on because it's just it's one of it's a cross you have to bear yeah now when you say you take it on are you saying that you just you don't fight back you don't you rather yeah you rather take that on than it be then it be targeted at your child so I would rather have somebody think that I'm a pedophile or a groomer than have me not support my child or to have somebody direct that at her you know I would rather they come for me or they come for Jonathan I'll be honest it's usually Jonathan I think because he's a man.

50:56I don't know. There's some kind of weird, twisted way that people like to think of these things. That's interesting that they target him more. Much more. Than you. And your thought is because of his gender. Yeah, for sure. Okay. I do. One of the things that people have got so wrong is they have said that she has been exploited for views, for money, whatever. But what people don't know is that we actually closed the doors on Sikoni Jolie's just before she transitioned. So her transition, you know, she was eight. So it was socially transitioning, right? She was eight years old. And that happened after Saccone Jolie's was over.

51:45So we stopped YouTube. So we really stopped our bread and butter. And we focused on other things. Jonathan was writing a book. You know, there were a lot of other things going on. So we didn't necessarily financially need to lean into that anymore. Edie transitioned pretty much off camera. And the only thing that was ever kind of documenting it was TikTok. But at the time, TikTok was super early on. So this was 2020. And TikTok didn't pay for the first couple of years. So nobody made any money. And Jonathan was just creating these cute little videos with her. And basically, it was like how proud he was of her being her true self.

52:29But people saw that because they would get views. They saw that as, oh, he's making so much money from her. And in reality, no one made a penny off of that. And if anything, I would say a lot of the brand deals dried up after Edie socially transitioned. And do you believe specifically because? I know so. Yeah. She was transitioning. Okay. Yeah, I think a lot of brands were probably afraid to associate themselves with a family with a trans child. I will be completely honest, you know, before when it was just, you know, us and our four kids and it was two boys and two girls, it was very cookie cutter.

53:21And it suited brands a lot to work with a family like that. you know it's a nice white family and they're Irish and they're Catholic and they've got these four kids two boys two girls so cute right how many dogs six dogs yeah it's perfect and then they've got a trans kid and it's like oh nobody wants to work with that you know and I just think a lot of things changed a lot of the way that people viewed us the way that people spoke about She thrived in lockdown because that was when it really happened. She felt like she was strong enough to start to change how she dressed and start to change things.

54:03And I think that that was just really a beautiful moment for her. But she got to do it by her own. On her own. Yeah. Can we spend a moment in this space? Because I will say that trans rights and trans experience is something that I have become fascinated with. And quite honestly, I owe it to my friend Ella Morgan, you know, who I met a few years ago and was the first transgender woman that I believe I had met. and since that moment every time I see anything transgender rights etc I'm reading it I'm looking at it I'm consuming it I am asking myself what my thoughts are etc and one thing that is clear to me is that there is a lot of misinformation disinformation and therefore confusion in this space, just in particular around transgender people.

55:11And one topic that often comes up, and I think this is a topic of misinformation and disinformation in particular, is around a young child transitioning. Yeah. So from the standpoint of a parent, right, is you have Edie who was, did you say eight roughly? She was eight when she changed her name. So she was probably seven when she started. Okay, so seven. So seven. So she is expressing herself around seven years old. Yeah. But then also we know that a seven-year-old mimics and plays, et cetera. Yeah. How do you as a parent know that that expression is of a deeper identity opposed to mimic and play?

56:02So I think a lot of people who had watched our show, they'd watched Sikoni Jolie's, they had seen signs from the beginning because she always used to dress up like her sister or dress up like a princess from the age of about two. Again, we just thought it was because she had an older sister and she loved Amelia and she wanted to be like Amelia and it was just normal, right? But there were always signs there. And then what made it stronger for me is when I eventually had a boy. I had Andrea, my fourth, and he was so different. Like there was just no comparison between the two. And they had been raised in the same home, you know, given the same food, same parents, same upbringing.

56:53But he was a boy. Yeah. For sure. But how do you know this, right? And the reason why I go back to this is because, so as a parent of two boys, same food, same house, but they are entirely two different dudes, you know what I mean? Entirely. So then how do you know? And how do you know? I think, you know, it's funny because I even talk to my other kids, well, Amelia, my oldest, about this. And she says sometimes when she looks back on pictures of Edie pre-transition, which Edie doesn't have a problem with, by the way, at all. She's very comfortable. Okay. Yeah, with all of her pictures and videos being out there because we've asked her.

57:38She's very much a part of the conversation all the time. Always has been. She loves it because she's like, that's my babyhood. Why would I want that to be eliminated? And I was a really cute baby too. So no. Keep that photo. Yeah. She loves it. So when Amelia sometimes looks back on, especially, you know, pictures of her where she's dressed more masculine, like a boy, right? And she's like, it's so weird to see her like that because you just can't believe that that's not Edie, you know? And I agree with her. It's so bizarre to even think of Edie as anything else now because she's just, that's who she is.

58:17She's Edie. She's always been Edie. She doesn't watch maths, but we were watching maths and we saw Ella and Jonathan was like, you need to sit down and you need to watch this and let Edie watch her wedding. It was just groundbreaking for her. She was like, she's like me. She's getting married to a man and, you know, she's having a life. That is incredible for a trans child to see. And I really hope that Ella knows that, that that's the impact that it has. She's just an icon. She really is. She just astounds me. And what, so this is, what year is that? She's in year? She was year four, I think.

59:02Yeah. So what is your view on the landscape right now, especially in the UK? Because, you know, I can't help but look at this last Supreme Court ruling here in the UK. So 2025, so this is this year, UK Supreme Court ruled that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex. So this judgment obviously could lead to greater restrictions on the access for trans women to services and spaces reserved for women. But then I think what a lot of people don't fully accept or don't pull is are the percentages of trans people. Yeah. So. I know. This is the part where I didn't, until researching for this, I didn't understand the numbers.

59:54So here are the whopping numbers. The census in England and Wales show that 48 ,000 people identify as trans men, 48 ,000 identify as trans women, which equates to 0.2, 0 .2 of the population. Two in five trans people have experienced a hate crime or incident because of their gender identity. And only one half of trans people feel that they are able to be open about their gender identity to everyone in their family. So you see there's a long way to go. But one place is around your perspective on how the world views, or should I say, how the world is going to show up for your daughter. That's the question that I have.

1:00:53If anyone is, you know, struggling with not accepting trans people or an inability to understand them or an inability to understand even a parent of a trans child who chooses to accept them, I would always ask them the question, which I think is asked in any form of discrimination. Would you swap places willingly with a trans person? because I'm willing to bet that the answer is always going to be no. However, I would trade places with a transgender person if I could. I would trade places with Edie if I could. You could? For sure. Why is that? As her mom, I would take all of the pain. I would do anything to trade places with her.

1:01:50I would take it. I would take all of the hurt and discrimination. I would take that if it meant that she didn't have to go through it. That is the one person, the one trans person that I would trade places with in a heartbeat. I would. And I truly mean that. And I've laid awake at night sometimes thinking like, I wish I could. Like, I wish I could just take it away. but then I realized that there's nothing wrong with her just because somebody's trans doesn't actually mean that there's anything wrong with them it's like it's just it's something that's been happening for centuries and it's nothing new it's just that we're with social media and with the world becoming smaller in a way we're more aware of it now I will say that there are resources out there for not just transgender people, but families of transgender people.

1:02:56Like I have found a huge amount of support in a charity and health. They, they help with transgender kids and families and transgender people. They have been phenomenal and it's been a lifeline for me. And you know, this isn't sponsored or anything, but I think it would be great to put that in your show notes for anyone who is going through anything. They're just the most non-judgmental charity and they're there for everybody, not just for transgender people, but also for the people that are around them. And I really needed that at certain points of our lives and I think in our journey. You know, thank you for sharing that.

1:03:39I thought that was a very compelling look at a parent who simply loves their child. You know? Period. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting. There's no parent, talking about questions that you can ask is, there's no parent who wouldn't do anything possible to stop the pain of their child. Exactly. And stop the hurt for their child. So I'm with you. I'm with you on that. You know that feeling when you've just committed to starting something big and then it hits you. How am I going to pull this off? When I started my matchmaking business, I remember sitting at the kitchen counter one night with my computer and 15 tabs open, trying to figure out how I should market and sell our services.

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1:06:35today at stitchfix.com slash spotify that's stitchfix.com slash spotify one thing that i was quite honestly shocked about is when i started my research on you and trying to watch all 1000 hours i went to youtube and i said okay let me just put your name in here and let me just go through and watch all of your videos. But do you know what, I mean, you probably can guess what pops up immediately. Video after video after video of why you as a family shouldn't be doing what you're doing. And a theme that I saw recurring, because I watched a few of those, was exploitation of children. Yeah. And one question that I have is, what is your opinion of this?

1:07:30And I will go to something that also I found interesting to kind of kick us off in this area, is that there are no restrictions in the UK and in many places in the world around children, I'm sorry, parents, including their children in YouTube content. Now, there is for other forms of content. So in 2015, the UK child performance laws were updated, which prevented children from performing for no more than six consecutive days. But it doesn't apply to YouTube. And then when I started to look at how many parents include their children in not just YouTube, but just generally, right? This was the one that blew me away.

1:08:22Estimates show that the average parent will post. So once again, this is not YouTuber. This is not. This is the average parent. You have a child, right, will post their child's image online almost a thousand times by the time they're only five. A thousand times, right, by the time they're five. But then it goes on. A 2025 study showed that 62 % of parent influencers do not involve children in filming decisions. 56 % of brands have no formal child protection guidelines. And because of all of this, a new term, do you know about sharenting? Yes, I've heard that one before. Sharenting is now officially in the Oxford English Dictionary, meaning when a parent shares news, images, and videos of their children on social media.

1:09:14So what's your perspective and your positioning on this topic? I think it's really interesting because the whole world has changed so quickly. And I guess everyone's trying to catch up. And when we started on YouTube, it was so, so different. And this wasn't even a conversation. You know, it wasn't even something that anyone thought about necessarily. What sticks out to me and what I, I guess Jonathan and I always kind of go by is that we've never shared anything that our kids would be embarrassed of. So that was always kind of our rule book that we want to just share like the cute moments and the cute that, you know, the happy family memories.

1:10:07So it's kind of like a family photo book or something like that. And also the thing I think the thing that people don't probably know is that our kids are like the biggest Saccone Jolie's fans. They watch our old videos and our old content. It's kind of like their comfort. I don't know. It's maybe because it's their childhood and they and it helps them remember things. But they love it. They love watching all of the old videos. And I actually got in trouble because I started to question, OK, things are changing now. And, you know, people are saying family vlogging isn't so great and you shouldn't share this, that and the other.

1:10:50And so maybe I should delete some of the video or private some of the videos that are on my channel. So I did. I went in and I privated some of them. Quite a lot of them, actually, because I wasn't really sure. I was like, well, the baby updates, should they really be on there? I don't know. Like, who knows? Right. we're all learning so I did that and Amelia came to me straight away actually both Amelia and Edie where are all of my baby updates gone really yeah and I was in so much trouble she was like why did you get rid of them I used to watch them every night I was like I'm so sorry and she asked me to put them back they take this you know they were not they were given this life without a choice they didn't choose what parents they got and they happened to get parents that were youtubers now though because you mentioned amelia's 13 so we another similarity we have a we both we have a teenager i have a teenager right and an 11 year old right yeah which is prime social media age yes for them to begin uh you know migrating on yeah and i um you know uh it's so weird to say it but I guess I'm kind of a public figure, kind of.

1:12:01And so it's one of those where I know that whenever I'm posting and my children are involved, and I'll never forget this. This happened maybe about two to three years ago because if you would go back and look at my, say, Instagram, for example, you have a child, you're like, I want to show my child off to everybody. Look, look, look, look. And you're right, the world was different eight years ago. And then what ends up happening is we then, you know, we had Georgia Harrison on. She's talking about deep fakes. And you see how people take images. They manipulate them. You become aware and you begin to then slow, slow, slow, slow.

1:12:41And then what I realized, too, is that I would take a photo and my sons would say, you don't have my consent. Literally. That's their line right now. You don't have my consent. I'm like, I'm not posting this. They still will say, you don't have my consent. But what they're, even though a lot of those are jokes, they are trying to insert themselves to say, I do have ownership and authority over my likeness. And so they should. And so they should. Yeah. And so now with my oldest, you know, he has an Instagram account and it was his birthday. And I remember having this whole conversation around, Kingston, do you want me to tag you in this or not?

1:13:24He was like, oh, dad, yeah, yeah. And then we had this long conversation around, well, what are you going to use your account for? What are you going to post? Be methodical about it. And yes, Kingston, there will also be extra attention given to you as a result of my business. And so did you have that same conversation you did with Amelia and Edie, with all the children, just the two? And what did you talk about? More so the older two, because, of course, now I think the rule is on social media, 13, right? They can... You know, I think, but also I know that... Oh, yes. Kids skirt it by any means necessary.

1:14:08For sure. And I think to a degree we have to be okay with that. Like we have to embrace, you know, I see a lot of fear around social media and kids and I get it. Like I totally get it. But I do think that we need to be open to it and we need to be having conversations with them. Because I think the minute that we say you're not allowed, don't do it, this is bad, that shuts a door. And then they're going to do it anyway behind your back. so I think that for me and certainly for Jonathan we have always just had a really open we're a very open family like we have open conversations all of the time and if ever any of them had an issue with anything they know that they can come to either one of us we also are very upfront about the fact with our kid with all of our kids that mommy and daddy made so many mistakes so many and we continue to do so you know and that's okay.

1:15:09And the reason why we're maybe saying, maybe don't do this, or maybe be careful with that is because we've made the mistakes before you. But again, we have to make those mistakes in order to learn and grow. And I think that without that, and without that knowledge, we can't move forward. With our kids, they come to us, and they tell us, and they show us things. And we see everything, and we're clever. Like we know how to navigate these apps. We know what's going on. Sometimes she won't message me. You know, when she's out, she won't message me back. So I go on Snapchat and I just Snapchat her and then I get a response and I'm like, wow, see?

1:15:49Pays to be a cool mom. There you go. You know how to navigate it. Yeah, but it's important, you know, and location sharing. They turn location services off, by the way, just so you know. Yes, yes. That's the thing. You know, what's interesting is that I think that Maybe also because of my business, I have to be up on the latest on socials. But I didn't think of it until you just mentioned it, how many parents could actually be entirely clueless around how the apps operate, how to navigate it. And therefore, you're right. You're at a heavy disadvantage if you have children and you don't know how to operate.

1:16:26And I think that's scary. I really do. And it's through no fault of anyone's. It's just the way things are. But I think that, you know, someone like even my parents would have struggled because they wouldn't have been remotely interested in that whole landscape of social media if it had existed back then. I know for a fact it wouldn't have just wouldn't have been on their radar. So I think they would have struggled. And my mom always says it to me now. She's like, I think it's so much harder for parents now that have to navigate. But, you know, then Jonathan argues that our kids are going to have something else with their kids to deal with.

1:17:03So it's ever-changing. Sure. And it's just, that's just part of life. And be informed. Yes. I think that's the key. What I didn't realize in looking at this research here is that motherhood, it seems like it's been this gift to you. Yeah. And you were pregnant, is it six times in five years? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One miscarriage. Yes. Documented. Right? Yeah. Documented. But when you think about motherhood, just overall, how do you believe it has shaped you? And I wonder, too, is how has it impacted this people-pleasing personality type that you seem to have earlier in life? I think so for me, when I got pregnant with my first with Amelia, I remember the first night that Jonathan left me in the hospital.

1:18:01And I was in there with her by myself. And, you know, it's that moment of like, uh, reality. Yes. But weirdly, I didn't feel scared. scared I was scared that he was leaving me because he was just going down the road you know of course small but I was scared to be left by myself but at the same time I knew that I had got this I knew I just had this instinctual feeling that I knew what to do she was my baby she came out of me I loved breastfeeding I loved I just loved being a mom I loved all of it so so much and I felt like I was finally, I finally had found something that I was actually good at.

1:18:46Like I just never felt like I was good at anything before. Really? Yeah. I really felt like I was, I guess it's the perfectionist in me. I just never felt like I was good enough at anything in particular. Felt like I could always be better. This thing, I had it. Like I, I knew what I was doing. I was, I was a good mom you instantaneously had this yeah motherhood instinct kick in and then and you could you could see how much love you have for your children like you could see it in in the footage so i can't imagine what it looks like off the footage what do you believe your relationship was or your ability to form relationships with other moms because this is this is something that on the research that I thought was really interesting is that I think there's this idea that you're a mom, you have children, you drop them off at school, you instantaneously bond with all the other moms, right?

1:19:45It's just a thing. The moms go do their thing, right? But from what I see, it doesn't always happen. No. Did it happen for you? No. Okay. I was a lot younger than a lot of the moms at the school, and I struggled with that because I felt like they had these big careers. They were doctors, lawyers, they were in finance. I didn't have any of that. I was just a YouTuber, you know, and I was like, I'm not supposed to be here. I really am not like it's not. I didn't feel like I fit it in. But then something magical did happen. OK, I was outside the school gates and I met the gay dad. The gay dad showed up and he was the same age as me and he had three kids and I was like wait I started talking to him and I was I was looking at him and I was thinking this guy is the same he's the same age as me he's young he's not old and I don't think he works in finance and I don't think he's a doctor or a lawyer he's he's talking like me like we just had a connection and it was like instant we became best friends and I met my, that's how I found my tribe.

1:20:57I found my, finally found my mom friend, but it was in the form of a gay dad. And weirdly, you know, it's also been such a positive journey to have Matt as my best friend in terms of Edie. Okay. Because I remember when we went to the gender therapist and we had a conversation about ed's journey and i asked her about fertility was a big thing for me this is a big question like what's gonna happen with her and she said i remember she said and i got really upset because she said you know the likelihood that ed as a trans woman will have her own be able to have her own biological kids is pretty slim um not impossible but it's pretty slim just given the statistics right and she said I think what you should do is make Edie aware of other families that just look different right well I started crying I just broke down because I felt like this was a huge loss for her that she was never going to be able to experience what I had experienced.

1:22:19And that moment that I was just talking about in the hospital. Yes. How, like, that's not going to happen for her. Like, that's awful. You know? And I really, I sat with it and I just, I cried. And Jonathan was looking at me like, what is wrong with her? You know? And I didn't understand why he was being so unsympathetic. I was like, what's wrong with you? Right. But you had just had this life-changing experience. And he's like, okay. And then we got home and I spoke, I did the school run and I spoke to my best friend, Matt, and he's had three kids by surrogacy. And I said, and I love his kids.

1:22:58They're like, they're like my niece and nephews, you know? and I said to him you know this is what she said about the fertility and that's awful like how how can that be you know that's so terrible for Edie and he said he looked at me and he was like but Anna that's like me with my kids and I swear the penny dropped I did not even think about him and his kids as being any way different you know when she said oh you should kind of open her eyes to different family I didn't think of that and he said it's that's me with my kids you do realize that I hadn't realized it because for me like it's the same right yes and when he said that it was like everything changed I I think I I was crying but I was also so happy at the same time I was like oh my gosh you're right as we all get older yeah you know you realize how much you don't now.

1:23:55Yeah. You know, and how ignorant, you know, you are. But I think unfortunately for many people, what they do is they don't have that realization and they just stay within that box opposed to growing, which is stepping outside of the box. Yeah. You know, experiencing discomfort. Yeah. And obviously maturing, you know. One area that I want you to help me with, too, this is in my maturity is that, so we've talked a lot about Jonathan. So, so with Jonathan, here's the part that I want you to help me with. You probably know where I'm going. Is that, so is it 2022 that Jonathan came out as non-binary?

1:24:38Yes. Okay. But the question that I have is what I've seen in terms of reading, uh, commentary from him and yourself is that the relationship did not change. No. That's the part that I just want to understand, is that from how I look at it, is that he's saying that he knows that his identity has always been a woman internally. So Jonathan has basically a very strong relationship with what I, well, what I would call it is like the spirit world, I guess. He's very in tune with, I guess, just that side of things. He's always seen things that other people don't see. I think that in another lifetime, he could have been a medium.

1:25:35Okay. He, so, and he had a very tricky childhood. So a lot of how he was brought up and how he was raised, he was in his head. and a lot of that and it's in his book actually what he wrote about in his book invisible friends okay and he was he talked about this in his book about how you know there were a lot of i guess you would call them spirit guides that got him through a tricky childhood because he lived very much in his head interesting okay so i don't think jonathan is defined by any gender So he's always felt this way, clearly. Yeah. Right. But at what point did you two have that conversation?

1:26:20I don't really know that we ever had a conversation about it. I think it was just like a natural progression of like, this is who he is. And as a person, that's who I love. Okay. Well, this actually makes sense to me, right? Because what I thought was that there was an epiphany that he had in 2022 and came out publicly with this epiphany, had a conversation with you around that point. And so I was thinking, how does your relationship not change? Yeah. But what you're telling me is that this is – you never had to have a conversation because he's always been his way. You've always been your way.

1:27:02and this public announcement of it was just making it clear publicly. Yeah, and I think he also, I guess before, non-binary wasn't even a thing. Like no one even really talked. That's true. We didn't have the language for it. Yeah, and he was like, you know what, that describes me perfectly. For this person that you love so much, I mean, how do you feel And what is your response to the negativity that comes after him? Because not only around Edie do I feel like he disproportionately gets the hate, but I think just generally. Generally. You know, there's a documentary that I'm sure a lot of people watched about you.

1:27:46It was Stacey Dooley's documentary. And I distinctly remember looking at the comments. Yeah. And the comments, the general theme of the comment was, this guy is the problem. Anna, go save yourself. Like, get out of this situation. Go back to Baltimore. It's so funny. It's like people get it so wrong. But it feels like it is aimed at him. So how do you feel reading, seeing that? Do your kids see that? How does he feel? I think Jonathan is a really strong person. I think he is very good at seeing the bigger picture with everything. I'm sure it gets to him at some point. I mean, I'm sure it's not nice to hear or see those things.

1:28:38For me, it's very difficult, I will say, because he, you know, the things that people say about him couldn't be further from the truth. And I think people have misconstrued this whole, like what you said about the documentary, where they think that he is controlling or some kind of, I don't know, evil mastermind. Whereas the way I, well, the way I see it, the truth of it is that he's just protecting his tribe and he is just a protective person. And, you know, when that documentary was shot, I was still I was in the throes of my relapse. And so I was hiding a lot of stuff and I didn't I was not open to being filmed or being.

1:29:29You know, it's so interesting you say that, Anna, because I felt like you were you took a step back and you were removed. I really didn't like it. I didn't enjoy any of it. And Jonathan was in protective mode because he knew that. And I think that's kind of what he was talking about when he made that video too. Yes. He's always kind of had to almost, I don't want to say overperform, but he knew that he was going to get the brunt of whatever was coming because he was going to be more so front and center of that documentary because I was just not willing to even really be filmed. Like I just didn't want I wasn't comfortable with the film crew in our house.

1:30:09You have to remember as well, you know, people say things about our kids and exposure and that there's really not a lot of exposure because it's just me and Jonathan. And we've got, you know, our little camera, which is tiny. The kids, they're not used to having like a film. Some kids are because they're in reality shows or they're in actual TV shows. Our kids are not. They're not used to like all this setup or, you know, people with the boom mic. And there's lots of people there. You know, these scenes that you shoot in a bedroom, like a kid's bedroom, there's like eight people. Yes. And it's so unnatural.

1:30:46And so I didn't like it. I guess the kids aren't used to it. But, you know, it was something that we did and it was an experience that we had. But I will say the timing of it wasn't great because I was just not in a good headspace at all. And you can tell for sure. But then people will take that and twist it to, you know, oh, Jonathan's the bad guy. But Jonathan's really the most protective. It's interesting to hear this because what it sounds like you're saying is that he knew you were going through this. For sure. So he stepped up and had to, you know, and I know not perform, but he had to step up and almost absorb more of the interaction.

1:31:30I implicitly trust Jonathan. I know that he will do what's right for us, for me, for our kids, for our family. And you also don't know, like we've had so many experiences with the press where journalists have come to do interviews with us. and I guess what has happened is because it's happened quite a few times they've come to be like a fly on the wall say and they're like we really want to you know just get to grips with how you do what you do and you know how you live your lives and this and that and they spend the day and then they go away and they write an article and I think probably what happens is they send it to their editor and their editor is like this is not juicy enough nothing happened turn up the drama yeah And then they go away and you think they're the nicest person and then they write the most horrific article about you.

1:32:23And you're like, where did this come from? You know, and that has happened so many times with us. But when the people talk and they comment, I mean, how does that impact you and your family? And I'll give you my experiences that, you know, I'm on a few shows, a lot of pleasant comments, some very unpleasant comments. And I'll never forget my one of my sons discovered this Reddit that was like, you know, the worst commentary on their dad. You know, this guy that they love. And they read that. And you have to reconcile. And they say, oh, I'm fine. But you can see they're not. And then, you know, I become so upset to think, you know what?

1:33:14If you have that to say, which is completely incorrect, and you're just in your feelings, and clearly you're just mad at your own life. Yeah. Why don't you just direct message me that? I know. You tell me that on the street. But don't publicly put that in a space where my son is going to read that. You know, I don't think I've ever been more upset than that. And then the New York comes out. I'm like, find this person. You know what? Track this person down. You know, I'm going to show up to your house with 20 Jamaicans. Yeah.

1:33:50So that's my experience. Yeah. What's your experience? So it's really difficult because, of course, you know, as the kids have got older and they've got more, they've learned to read and they've learned how to navigate things and they've seen stuff. And some of the YouTube videos that you were just talking about, Alessia, my eight year old, has seen because they've been they've come up on her page because I guess if she because like I said, they watch Sikoni Jolie's videos. It's like their comfort thing. They love it. And Alessia has actually, so she's eight. She has actually gone on and she's left comments.

1:34:32Has she? Yes. We just discovered this the other day. Are you serious? Just a few days ago. She has left comments and said, how dare you say this about my dad? My parents are so amazing. They're not abusing me. It's so cute. And we just thought, oh, gosh, it's so sweet. But, you know, it's also it's not right. She shouldn't have to do that. She shouldn't have to feel the need to defend her parents. Can I I do want to do the nutrition. But I have a quick fire question. And I think that this will be you are the right person to answer these. OK, so quick fire question one. What's one thing that you see in the comments that you'd love to address for good and put to bed?

1:35:19Oh, that's a good question.

1:35:23Um, I think I addressed it. I think it's the ED exploitation thing. I think that's, yeah, I would want people to know that because that's a really common misconception. And the truth of it is, you know, nobody ever made money off of her transition. So yeah, I think that's one. In fact, you lost money. Yes, exactly. For sure. What's been your proudest online moment? I think probably weirdly for me was the miscarriage I know that sounds so strange because at the time it was so it was such an ugly moment for me you know I just I thought it was so awful to have to share something that sad but it was so you know Jonathan had put the camera down because we thought we were going to get we were getting a scan and so he'd put it down because I've had questions about this too like why did why did he film it well it was a mistake he filmed it because he thought we were getting this scan and we were going to find out like more about the baby and so he put the camera down and forgot about it and then we got the news and then it shows me just breaking down and him hugging me and yeah we got a lot of stink for that for share you know for recording that but really it happened so organically because we thought it was going to be good news you know we didn't think it was going to be bad news but I'm I'm proud that we did capture that because that moment is something that so many other parents have experienced and it's a real moment and it makes them feel like they don't have to do it alone yeah makes them feel seen yeah Yeah.

1:37:05What's one boundary that's changed how you use social media? I think what I said about sharing opinions, I used to, you know, share my opinion on stuff. If something bothered me or if I saw someone, even if I saw someone else on social media being treated a certain way and I would speak up. Now I just don't do it because it just puts you under more heat for, you know, and I truly believe in standing up for others. But at the same time, it's like it's just so tricky out there. And it's sometimes it's just easier to just see it as like this is my job. It's entertainment. I'm not going to put my real full real self on there.

1:37:50Isn't that it's so it's so tricky, isn't it? Because you at the same time, then you're silenced. I know. And then perpetrators, if you will, win. Yeah. Because ultimately that's what they want is your silence. I know. It's so tricky. But I just think what I've learned about just your own safety and your own like mental safety, sometimes it's just it's better to just to let it be. To let it be. Yeah. Okay. Two more. What advice would you give? Actually, it's interesting. You just said this one too. But what advice would you give to someone starting YouTube today? Yeah, I would say to just enjoy the journey.

1:38:37I think just enjoy the journey. YouTube has given us so many things that are incredible. And, you know, they always say, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I think that's so true with YouTube. It's like YouTube has always been the hand that feeds us and it's always been our bread and butter. And it's always I think YouTube takes care of its creators. I really do have all of the platforms. So I think it's a beautiful platform to get started on. And I just would say to anybody who wants to do it, just do it and just enjoy it. OK. Last one. What's one thing you hope your audience understands about you now?

1:39:21I think I would just hope that they understand that I'm a normal person. Like you see so many things that are written about you online. And actually, Amelia said this to me, too, which I thought was very wise for her age. She said, I think that people forget that we're real people. Okay. Right. And not just us, but anyone in the public eye. She said, because I've seen it happen to other YouTubers. I've seen it happen to other famous people. Famous, you know, kids of famous people, too, where they forget that that's a human being. And they pick on them and say things about them like it's a sport.

1:40:06And certainly it's something that I've seen with, you know, our kids, too. that that's that's not normal like that's not a normal way that's not a human way to be to want to pick someone apart to that extent and so I I really would hope that people realize that we're just ordinary normal people we're human beings we make mistakes but we're just like everybody else all right I love it I love it so then Anna what inspired you to go back to school because you've just recently gone back to school. Yeah. So I went back. I think I probably had, like I was saying, I had so much of my identity and so much of my self-worth was wrapped up in being a mom.

1:40:53And, you know, my nutrition course is not, it's not something that I did because I wanted to switch careers. It's something that I did because I wanted to help, you know, I wanted this to kind of almost enhance the career that I already have. And I didn't want to be one of those people that was just another influencer talking about things that I'm not qualified in. So I really wanted to get qualified so that I could have something behind me, like backing me. Yes, talk with more authority. Yeah, no, I really know what I'm saying. And I don't claim to, you know, I'm still a student. I don't claim to have that authority yet.

1:41:30But and, you know, maybe I I don't know that I even will after I graduate, but at least I'll be better informed and at least I'll be better educated and be the person that I needed when I was 12. You know, that's that's what it seems like. Yeah. It seems like you're showing up for you. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And you spent this whole life showing up for everyone else. Yeah. You know, and now. Yeah. Show up for yourself. It's like the tummy tuck. It is. It absolutely is. And I love also not only the inspiration for your children, but the inspiration for so many people to say, you know what? At any point, you can go back to school.

1:42:15True. And you can go back to school because, you know, school is a wonderful place. I think we were taught that it's like this. Yeah. But no, it's wonderful. It's wonderful to learn. It is. It's wonderful. And I'm actually probably one of the, surprisingly, one of the younger ones in my course. I thought I would be like older, but that inspires me so much. Like there's people on my course that are in their 70s. And that is so cool to me to still want to learn at that age. I want to be like that. Like that's what I want to be like. Before I wrap, then you get the final question. Everyone gets this question.

1:42:49Okay. This is my favorite question. Yes. And that is if you look back upon your life, you've had some amazing conversations. which one stands out to you as the most memorable? Who was it with and what did you learn? I think it was with Jonathan. I'm going to have to say because I probably have learned the most from Jonathan, to be honest. He's very, like I said, he's very wise. and I remember going back to when I was 19 and I was at that crossroads where I was doing I was at school so I was doing language and cultural studies and I hated it and I remember having a conversation with him early on so I don't even think we were together yet I think we were just friends and I was talking to him about how I've always loved like fashion and beauty and all of these different things that my family just don't really value like that's not something that they are interested in and he was like okay well why are you not doing those things and I said well because I can't I want to make my parents happy you know and I just I can't do that and he said But if you want to change something about your life or yourself, just change it.

1:44:15And it was like a switch went off in my brain. It was almost as if it's the most obvious thing when you really think about it. But that sentence right there just changed everything for me. I was like, it was like you have the power to it's your life. Right. It's not your parents life. It's yours. So if you're not happy with something, just change it. it was just like an epiphany for me. And it opened this door of possibility where I realized, oh, I don't have to do all of these steps that are laid out for me. I could actually go this way. I'll never forget that conversation because that would be probably my advice to all of my kids too.

1:44:59If you don't like something about your life, change it. You have the power to do that. Yes, yes. You said that with conviction. I felt that. It was one of those. I'm thinking, I do have the power to change. I was channeling Jonathan. I am going to change things. Right? Anna, I have fully, thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you. I truly have. So am I. You know, I will say this. I started saying this off camera, and you looked at me like, what are you talking about? But you deserve a place in history when you think about how prevalent creators are today. I mean, we're living in a creator economy right now.

1:45:44YouTube, Spotify in particular are two of the biggest platforms to do it. And you arguably were one of the most recognized first family within the UK to begin this journey. You're pioneers. pioneers always deserve a place in history. So you deserve, you have a place in my history book. Thank you. That's for sure. But also I am, I stand very impressed with you. Really? Very impressed. Thank you. I think you are brilliant. And I'm not saying that facetiously. I'm not just saying it to try to gas you up here at the end. I'm saying it because you are. I've said across from many people, some of the most brilliant minds in the world, And let me tell you, you are quick.

1:46:33You are very quick. You are very reflective in how quick you are. Thank you. And you have strong conviction in what you say. Those are the marks of a brilliant mind. Thank you. I think you are brilliant. And I cannot wait to see what the next chapter looks like for you and your family. Thank you so much. You got it. You got it. That was it. Thank you. That was so lovely. I'm often pleasantly surprised. I could be most surprised with Anna and how she showed up and what she said. And here's the reason why is because I've watched so much footage of Anna Saccone. Today, I feel like she showed up as truly herself.

1:47:23And I think what we often do as a society is we take our current framing of rules and regulations and how we operate in today's society, and we apply it to yesteryear. And so I feel as if what she was telling us is, hey, we've made mistakes. She understands the repercussion that comes from that and has thought about that weight on her children. But then also she was very eloquent in saying, well, the rules are murky. It's a gray zone right now. And I think that's why there's no legislation around children and YouTube in the UK and in so many parts of the world. Because it is a gray zone. You know, you have creators popping up at 13 and 14 years old.

1:48:17Some of the most popular YouTube creators are under the age of 21. And so how do you regulate that? I think we're struggling with how to do that. I constantly think, am I making decisions that I believe are the right ones, the best ones today for my children that will be harmful in just 20 years? And it could be something that I think is basic, like, don't eat this, but eat that, right? You know, should you be exercising at this age? As parents, we are utterly confused. And it exacerbates the challenge of parenting. So we have to, though, give ourselves grace. And ultimately, we have to do the best we can with the information we have.

1:49:15she is brilliantly complicated like so many of us

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