“Anxiety Made Me Feel Like I Was Dying” The Creator of The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and the Horse

34:28and they were some of the most extraordinary people I've ever met, without question and you know there was so much poverty and suffering there was so much you know, cerebral malaria was massive there HIV rates were you know it was like god but the spirit of those people

35:02and blew my mind in terms of what they what they knew was true and what life was and the value of it and so i guess i wanted to find out from other cultures if i could learn but i didn't know i was doing that if someone said what are you doing i go i'm just mucking about you know i mean like it wasn't being you know but i think i i i i they all were all gave me this understanding that wealth was on the inside i think you know it's funny people talking about because i don't think i really really objectively realized that until i'm sitting here because i was you know going to all these places and I feel as if you are describing everything you saw there yeah I think probably now you're traveling uh obviously you've uh lived in different areas yes can we talk about how you moved to Brixton because this is early on in my uh my my UK escapade so when I got here I'll never forget i said where's the jamaican food where's the good jamaican food right and everyone told me it's brixton it's brixton so we get we get into a taxi uh myself my wife and my two boys okay immediately he says why do you want to go there yeah i used to have that with that shriveled up face why would you want to go to there Little did they know Little did they know That's what Yeah It is epic So If we can We should give Brixton some spotlight What got you there?

37:00What do you love about it? So I used to go There a lot I used to go to the academy And see bands And Friends used to live there So I was always being drawn there For whatever reason And I always liked the energy And I didn't know it very well. You know, I just, again, did all my wandering around and ended up in Brockville Park. I just met all these people. Everybody seemed very chatty. Yes. Really engaging. And so, you know, and just an eclectic mix of the diversity was just so intense. And you never know who you're going to meet next. And I've been there ever since, 25 years later. look at that and what's incredible is like this as you come out of my street on the corner on Brixton Hill is a cafe that is one of the most stunning communities you can possibly imagine of every type of person you can think of is there sharing lives and talking and listening and you know from lawyers to homeless people to addicts to actors to writers to nannies to nurses it's just like this and everyone seems to congregate there and move through it and i've never known anything like that in london um i've never known anything like that in the world i don't i think it's very rare i think we all say it we think wow yeah we have something here that we need to really look after it's the place i put my big painting on the wall i did on the outside what do you want to be when you grow up kind to the boy that's the place I didn't know that yeah that's in Brixton

38:51and I went there a lot making the book and I was haggard and harrowed and my house at the time what's interesting about making both books is that the first book you know I lost my dog my lovely Dill who was my soul mate all the electrics blew in the house so I had one socket to live on and to scan all the drawings everything and because the electrician said you're going to you'll need to rewire the house and you look like you're busy I said yeah I can't so I was going to the cafe a lot to make drawings in there you know he never wants me, Anton who runs it, never wants me to pay for a coffee hour

39:46and it was a tough time. I lost a friend during, it seems to be, in the second book, I lost my other dog, my mum died.

40:03Both times, I think the suffering that goes on in the making of them does something to the book itself. I don't know quite why that happens, but even like my car was broken into a year ago and loads of drawings are stolen from it for the book, stuff like that.

40:34And I think maybe when you're, you know, one of the dangers of making things is that you don't have integrity with yourself or the thing you're making. I think you can skirks over things. I think suffering doesn't let you do that. It sort of pulls you back into reality, you know. Paul's about to show you a presentation he made in Adobe Express, so you better be nice. You might not know this, but I am the proud co-owner of the mighty Sutton United Football Club, And this year, I had the honor of designing our Away Kit. First things first, Sutton Amber. Black, the crest, the fonts locked in with our sponsor, Adobe Express's brand kit.

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43:01When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. listening to this podcast smart move being financially savvy smart move another smart move having state farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor state farm is there prices are based on rating plans that vary by state coverage options are selected by the customer availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state This is the perfect time now to go deep into one of the best-selling books of all time.

44:09So 2019. Which was never an intention. And that's, even now, you know, understanding so far about your life, I can see that this was definitely not an intention. 2019. how does the idea for the book come about oh paul well it never meant to be a book i never thought it would be i didn't think i could make a book um what it was was a series of days of saying i'll do this today i'll do another drawing tomorrow and so i did this drawing when I got home and it was just the boy and the mole. I'd already sort of fashioned out these characters a bit. And the mole just said, what do you want to be when you grow up?

45:03And I thought, how about it just be kind? So I just wrote kind. And I posted it. I had a little social media. I had Instagram and got this reaction, like, really shocking. And at the same time, I was talking to... And I'm sorry, that reaction was lots of people commenting. Crazy, crazy, and being shared everywhere. Okay. And I was a bit taken aback by it. When I first, when I got really anxious and really low and was struggling, I remember seeking help for the first time and asking about it rather than just, you know, putting my head in the sand. What is this? Why do I feel this? and it was a really hard thing to do so I'd made this drawing of this strong licking horse and the boy asking what's the bravest thing you've ever said and the horse just says help so I did the drawing scribble it out and then posted that and again this insane reaction I got requests from the Canadian military from us from hospitals in Australia saying can we use this for whatever and i went yeah fill your boots you know please what a privilege that you're asking me you know just and so these drawings were sort of being used in different places and particularly with men you know and american footballers and all these people were sort of using it to say it's not weakness to us or help it's a strength it's a courageous act it's a brave thing to do if you're struggling and so i was then getting emails from people saying my my boy has been suicidal the fight he read he saw that drawing and he asked so i'm thinking to myself just keep making these drawings because someone someone somewhere in the world is but again never thought it'd be a book never thought it'd be a book no and you said you had the characters already though so no they were they came bit by bit so it was the boy in the mole first and then the fox arrived at night and there were other characters in the mix you know there were other things but they didn't feel right and then they met the horse so there were four and they all seem to reflect different parts of me and probably others yes that i wasn't consciously aware of but there were the other ones fed away because they're not clear enough in what they were reflecting representing okay so the boy clearly the curiosity curiosity just quite fearful wondering what what life's about but now I understand you are the boy.

47:37Yeah, I think I'm asking questions all the time. Yes. What is this and how and why? And yeah, yeah, yeah. You are like... Quite annoying probably. I keep funny, Paul, because I remember being at school. I remember in chemistry, Mr. Lewis, he was called the teacher, and I remember putting up my hand at the back, and he said, yes, Maxie. And I said, why are we doing this? Yes. and it was a moment you know because i want it wasn't like i was disagreeing with it i just wanted to know why we were doing any of this and i suppose maybe the boy has always been asking like what's why and what matters what doesn't matter you know the curiosity the curiosity doesn't end the curiosity you know you're just digging away and you're finding constantly constantly unearthing things constantly constantly the mole the mole i mean i i like the moment you like us to the boy his obsession with cake and and and reaching you know like when things are difficult we reach for comfort in various ways we default i know i like it's not necessarily cake but it'd be watching the same film over and over again you know whatever it is that we that that releases something at caught whatever it is that makes us feel okay yes um and then the horse i think is probably the bit that felt like the deepest part of us the soul of us the bit that's always been there and always will be the same it's the wisest bit of us yes and then the fox i realized was the damaged part that circumnavigates anyone before they get close that doesn't trust very easily that you know that is aggressive out of fear okay um and whose arc is i find the most moving because it's their love that bring pulls the fox right in the chest and you know love changes you reprimands don't and so I think and I don't really think like I didn't really realize this until a journalist said so clearly these four parts are you know oh okay yeah you're right you know I I'm not clever enough Paul to be that objective it all comes from a somewhere else within me and so I have to look back and go oh that's what I was thinking okay so in a way those four characters just then started interacting with each other and I was always quite surprised by what they were saying and then I think a year or two years later you know mainly on Instagram I mean I've loved my journey with them they're always so you know honest the DMs are so honest and then I got so many messages from people saying you know I'm I'm I'm thinking about not being here all these raw messages, but, you know, keep making the drawings and stuff.

50:44So I did, and then I thought I would do an exhibition of the drawings, so I hired a space in the West End of London, and I wrote, I did a little thing on Instagram saying I'm going to do, I framed 70 of these, come along. And, you know, my mum came, my sister came, family came, and I thought, you know, maybe, and, like, I think it was, it was, like, crazy stuff. I think someone in the street or the gallery next to me said they'd reckon there were 10 ,000 people came in five days. 10 ,000? Yeah. You couldn't get in there. And I was a bit like, and I met people there. A lot of people, I remember quite a few girlfriends brought their surly boyfriends along.

51:27And one guy in particular, she was five foot and he was like six feet. He was huge. And she said, she remember her saying, this is, I forget his name. and he was just nodding and his eyes were full of tears looking at me. And he didn't, he just said, thank you.

51:47And then I got up, I remember because I was hiding behind the desk, went and gave him a hug and then he just walked out. And that evening was someone who said, I work with Penguin. I think we should tell my book. and I said, really? I don't know. Maybe, you know, but I'm not against it. Okay. So I then met up with her, and, you know, we just, again, instinct pushing along, trying to find a semblance of a narrative, but I didn't feel it ever needed to be a clear story. I felt like it was a story about connection and emotion rather than events, that the events seemed to me to be secondary to what they were discovering in within themselves.

52:40I think most discoveries are internal. Yes, yes. Never once did we think, I wonder how many people will buy it. But the intention was make something

52:57that helps people in some way feel more alive, more connected less isolated and gives them the courage to reach out and say help give them the courage to say i love you gives them the courage just to say i need you to to to show that you know when have you been at your strongest when i've dared to show my weakness it's that it's like courage is something so different to what the world is telling you. It's so, so brave to say how you feel. It's so brave to ourselves. It's so brave to be vulnerable. And I think shame is the thing that keeps us all from doing that. You know, we all want to feel connected.

53:51And yet, vulnerability is one of the most powerful ways of being connected. but shame will prevent that happening. My mum, showing my mum the drawings, I had a ring binder I still have, sitting down with her saying, what do you think of this order? And she would run her fingers over it and look at it and I could tell she had Alzheimer's so you should have to feel, you know. And she loved the mole. And every day I saw her, she'd say, well, hello, said the mole. And so it was all this going on. And we managed to do the deadline in the end.

54:32And then it came out that October. October 19. So October 19, which is five months before... The world folds in on itself, yeah. Right, COVID hits us. The pandemic, yeah. Pandemic hits us hard. Yeah. How do you believe the pandemic impacted the reception of the book? It's a question I've been asked before. And I think by the time the pandemic arrived, a lot of people were reading the book. It wasn't like they read it because of the pandemic. But when the pandemic came, I think it was a source of, just from the emails I got, hundreds of thousands in my own inbox going through my website and I what else was I doing so I would read them and I've I've saved so many and I have a file and from a doctor in an ICU COVID ward saying your drawings are keeping us alive we read your book every morning a nurse saying two of my co-nurses have died this week.

55:49I'm terrified. We don't have any PP. It was early days, March 20. But I hold your book and I read a page every night.

56:00Just crazy stuff that I would... If someone had given me a brief saying, make a book that does this, I wouldn't even the gun. How does that make you feel, Charlie, to know that you've created something that has reached in and touch the soul of millions of people. Yeah, I mean, what I would say is it hasn't reached everyone, and that's how could it? And it's fine. I'm sure there are many detractors and critics of it, and of course, like, that's great and fine, you know. But for those it has, it feels nothing but privilege and gratitude, and it moves me very deeply that, you know, I'm not that wise.

56:44I'm not, you know, I'm just this bloke who felt things and wrote them down and dug a bit, looked around for meaning. And I find it, you know, sometimes I get overwhelmed, but like in the early year, 2020, it did overwhelm me. and I cried a lot randomly, both reading the stories, which are harrowing, but also knowing that someone somewhere felt better because of it. So it's this kind of double-edged thing. And also this question of how on earth did that happen? What? How do you, I mean, you must have thought about how it happened. And when I say it happened is you probably won't like this, but can we talk about the commercial success just a little bit?

57:42Because not only has it had such a profound emotional impact, but the all-out reception I think is amazing. It's amazing.

57:59So 2025, by 2025, right, the book is sold. And by the way, I don't think we've even clearly given, it's The Boy, The Mole, The Fox, and The Horse. Yes. It's sold approximately 10 million copies. 10 million copies. It has been on the Sunday Times bestseller list over 207 times, making your book the longest running Sunday Times bestseller ever. In the US, the book has spent 231 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. And your book has been translated in over 50 languages. So that, how does that make you feel?

58:55it makes me feel the same things as if one person has written to me and told me that's kept them alive okay so keep hold that in one hand okay in the other hand imagine me at chelm literary festival my first time i spoke about the book and i was signing them and the last person in the queue who'd been standing for an hour and a half was an 18 year old boy who sang and he didn't have a book in his hand for me to sign and I said hello are you ok and he said yeah I said you waited a long time and he said sure and I said can I help you he said I just wanted you to know that I decided to stay and I said like in the queue he said no I I decided to stay alive I wanted just to tell you that because that's what the book did so thank you and I'm looking at him and then he said yeah and there was a long pause that I asked for help when I wasn't going to and he had tears in his eyes and then I had tears and then we both I just sat there I'm just thinking if we'd made done all this for this boy I'd have done it just for this boy if we just sold one I'll take that and I stood up and I gave him a hug and we sobbed a lot and then he would I never seen him since so what I'm trying to say is those figures are amazing and I'm grateful and they they amaze me and surprise me and you know it's enabled me to do a lot of things I can I have friends who don't have much I can do all the things I couldn't do before I've rewilded some land and planted thousands of trees I've done and all this stuff that I wouldn't have been able to do before.

1:01:08But the success to me is genuinely.

1:01:18is the left hand is that um because we don't live very long and at the end of it what are you glad of who do you know what I mean like I would swap those figures for that for that yes yeah of course because because that's meaning yeah and you knew that at 18 yeah so meaning is the thing um what has meaning or what doesn't and I'm not anti money I just think he can help you do all kinds of great things but I think for me you know that that what goes into my heart and and what I'm always grateful for is is these people who I meet sometimes on the street and there's a guy who came up to me the other day he must have been his 90s and he goes oh yeah you are the mole bloke are you the guy the mole bloke and I went yeah And he gripped my hand and he had tears in his eyes.

1:02:25His hands just shook. I said, I'll tell you, mate.

1:02:30Do another, do another. Then shuffles off. And then another woman who I know works with kids who have rough, tough lives, and she texted me and said, OK, so your book helped some of my boys have, it gave them permission to be kind make another one and bloody hurry up this is a couple of years ago and it's that that it got because all these lives you know like what's going on you'll never know and that's the great thing about a book where you make something you make a cake that someone else eats you know whatever we do is that it's busy while you're eating spaghetti watching the telly so those these things someone might be pulp by now or in second hand shops someone somewhere might be reading one going this is this is working yeah it's the reception the emotion that came from the reception is that what then inspired the film

1:03:38probably because I used to lie in bed a lot and look at the ceiling and could see the film I could see scenes from it And often you used to wonder what it would look like if the boy moved, and if there was music added, and if the snow was really falling. And some people I know don't read. And so it would be another iteration that would reach different people. And so I thought, yeah, we should try and do this. but I was always worried that it would be made in the way that wasn't really done in the way I had dreamt of. Do you see what I'm saying? I do. I was always scared that it would be. But you've never made a film before.

1:04:27No. No. Clueless. The one thing I had seen before in filmmaking was Richard. In his office, Curtis. he has post-it notes and he writes words and bits and and shuffle moves them around how does this happen because because that in itself seems like that could be a movie i love him but he's the kindest funniest man you'll ever meet i mean what notting hill for weddings and a funeral mr bean i understand uh love actually i was on the set i drew for him on Love Actually. We auctioned all the drawings for Comet Relief. How did I meet Richard? Yes, and how do you land on the set? I know. Actually. I don't know.

1:05:21It was, you know, I think in life if you stay open, you meet people, you meet other people, you meet other people, and I knew I was a good friend of, Paige was a friend of mine I met in London, and she married Matthew. So I got her Matthew, Matthew's sister. Emma was Richard's girlfriend. You know, you just end up getting to know people.

1:05:46And years later, you still know them, and you're doing stuff. Land on the set of life? Yeah, I mean, my journey with Comic Relief and Richard has been really one of the most moving things. Because, you know, if you can share what you do, whatever it is you do. and I, you know, so we made t-shirts and for Comet Reef and made silly money. So it's been such a treat for me to say, okay, use me and I'll do drawings and we've done lots. So with Love Actually, I was late to the Love Actually train. I love Love Actually. Because when I got here to the UK, everyone said, look, have you seen Love Actually?

1:06:33You have to see it. Did they? Right. During Christmas, you must watch this. And so I didn't the first year. I didn't the second year. I didn't the third year. By the fourth year, I decided, let me sit down. And now I watch every Christmas. Every Christmas. So sweet. So your role on that set was to draw. Yeah. To draw what? I did drawings of behind the scenes. Hugh Grant having makeup on, Rowan Atkinson having costumes. I just drew everyone, you know, doing normal things, eating and chatting. I did a lot of drawings of Liam and Rowan and Richard in discussion about a scene. Okay. I also witnessed some really remarkable things on this.

1:07:25I like watching Richard draw out of Rowan what he was looking for take after take after take at three in the morning in Selfridges when he was, Ryan was being the the shop, the guy who sold the, all that stuff. I watched it, it was like, I think just watching gifted people work with each other, it's such a moving, but working so hard and failing and trying and trying, you know, that scene was shot I don't know, 30 times. Wow. And you go, okay, okay, so it isn't that easy. These things are not that easy. Yes. And I suppose what making my film with 200 other people on Zoom mainly during lockdown was really intense because they worked so hard at it, and it was difficult.

1:08:24And, you know, it was 24 frames a second. and every frame was hand-drawn, you know? Yes. Can I say something that I truly appreciate? The boy in the film seems to me to be racially and ethnically ambiguous. Yes. This is coming from a man of color who was a little boy of color. Yes. I wanted him to be from anywhere. Thank you for that. Yeah, I know. Because I grew up very rarely seeing any, especially animated characters who look like me. And so those characters always felt like a distance. You know, like looking at, say, Charlie Brown, you know? Yeah, right. It was, oh, Charlie Brown. I could never be Charlie Brown.

1:09:10I could be friends with Charlie Brown, but I can't be Charlie Brown. Right. But watching your film, I could see, because I watched it with my boys, 11 and 14, they could see themselves. Could they really? In the boy, you know? Because the boy is obviously me, but we want to push the boy to be anyone. Yes. That's great. Very important. Thank you. Very important. And so I could see that that was something that you contemplated. We tried to do it from every angle possible. Yeah. And I'm sure it's far from perfect. it could have been a lot better had we had another five years and another x pounds could have made a better film sure well you know it would it the film did all right i mean you won a little oscar for it that's i mean you know again not a goal not even i mean for me the great achievement would be managing to finish it and that for a long time we didn't think we would and and i remember when the BBC were thinking about showing at Christmas, I thought that was the most mind-blowing thing imaginable, which it was.

1:10:31In the same breath, I had the bizarre experience of being at the Oscar nominee's lunch in Hollywood, thinking that it was going to be one thing, and then getting there and sitting at the table with all these nominees who had anything but easy, glamorous lives. You know what I love is you mention that in your Oscar speech. Do I? Yes, at the very end of your Oscars. I'm so tired, I can't remember what I said. Oh, my goodness. It was beautiful. It was beautiful. Matter of fact, you have to read the comments. Have you read the comments? No. You must read. So on the Oscar, the official Oscar YouTube, the clip is there.

1:11:08And the comments are just like, Charlie needs to win a Nobel Peace Prize. No, they don't. No, I promise you. I promise you there are – I can barely wash my hair or get my shoes on. I'm not – you know. It's like he needs a – but at the very end you say something along the lines of you know that this is a room filled with people. Oh, yeah. I remember feeling that. Yes. That was – you remember what you said there? I remember something about them being brave. Yes. I think to make anything – I think making a film is brave. I think there's so much, it's so hard to make. I mean, for every film that's made, there's thousands who don't make it.

1:11:55You know, like it's a very tough thing and they're brave people and they're putting themselves on the line and nothing is easy, you know. The Oscar's like the most surreal, amusing, great thing. It's almost wasted on me. But maybe in part one of the values of the Oscar is that it then widens out the audience so more people will be touched by the film. Paul, you're absolutely right. I find talking about this, normally I don't. Normally I reply to emails and I carry on and have a coffee and I tend to sort of quietly keep all this within me and save the emails and don't talk about it because part of me feels like I'd break if I really did take really do you know what I mean I guess yes so it's it's that kind of thing that makes you go okay and sail this Oscars beautiful thank you but not really um they're just an indication of something yes they're they're a litmus test they're a uh they're a marker of some sort and i think that's what made in making the next book i think you know there was there was a moment in the pandemic where people wrote to me and said i just cannot see how i'm going to get through this i can't see a way through this and i remember thinking and i remember writing something can you see your next step however small and they went yeah i can see that i said just take that so i then drew that i see and put that in the book this is this is a new book so that that page is in that so a lot of the drawings in the pandemic in this book.

1:13:59So this is Always Remember. Yeah. This is the new one. And this is a continuation of the story. So we get the same, we get the mole, the fox, the horse, the boy. The book came out before the pandemic. And then during the pandemic, in two years, I was doing still drawing. I remember thinking, do we make another book? Do we? We don't need to. I don't have to. But I remember thinking, if it feels right and there's enough to say, will say it. I know that you introduce a weasel. That's the kind of the ground zero of the book is when the boy's deepest fear is probably, you know, abandonment. And so in the first bit he's asking a lot of questions like, what happens if I lose you?

1:14:49And the boy says, we're forever even if I'm not here. And then there's a suggestion of the storm. and then the storm hits. The horses, when the storm comes, just remember who you are, and it does. And the boy says, this storm is making me tired, and the horse says, storms get tired too, which was a pandemic drawing that was on lampposts in NLA and hospitals in Sydney and stuff, like weird things to see. And then the weasel, as you say, says, oh, what are you doing here? And the boy says, I lost my friends. And the weasel says, well, that was careless.

1:15:39Are you sure they didn't lose you? Would they have left you if they loved you? So it's that deep thing you get, like, my fault. Oh, why did they, is there something I said? Did I do something? Have I done, I screwed up, didn't I? I must have known, it's like, this is why I've ended up here. It's my fault, my fault. And it's that. But the next page is when he tries to remember. I know my mind can play tricks on me and tell me I'm no good, that it's all hopeless. But I need to remember who I am. And I wrote this as well as an inseparate page. Yes. That I am loved. I am loved. That I'm important.

1:16:23might bring to this world things no one else can. So I'll hold on. He chooses to hold on because he remembers who he is. Who he is. Yes. Yeah. Yes. In the darkest time, remember, remember. Let me ask you something. When was the last time you really thought about how you love? Not who, how. Most of us don't. We're moving fast, doing life, hoping love just shows up and sticks. But that's not how real connection works. That's not how lasting love works. So I've created something different, and it's called Love Better, and I'm taking it on tour starting October 26. This is a live experience for anyone who wants to build a deeper, more meaningful connection.

1:17:07We'll unpack the lessons from the couples you've seen me coach. I'll share stories I've never told on camera, and you'll walk away with the tools that you can use right away. Come solo. Bring a partner. Bring your crew. Everyone's welcome. I'm coming to Bristol, Brighton, Cardiff, Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, and London for one night in each city. Tickets are almost sold out, so grab yours now through the link in the description. I can't wait to see you there. As you're writing this and illustrating, would you say that the darkest period of your life

1:17:50was happening while you were creating either this book or the first book? Was that the darkest period? I don't think it was. What was the darkest? If we could tap into... That they stay with me. Yes. I have memories. They're dark moments where things catch up with you, things you've been running from. and it causes this.

1:18:22What do I do with this? What have you been running from? Well, I think, you know, there was some, like when I was a boy at that boarding school, there were some dark things that went on, and then losing friends, and I think we all have periods which are extremely difficult, and cause us to go into dark places and we don't know what to do when we're in them. And sometimes, I'm not even sure we actually recognize we're in them. We're just fighting to stay. And we eat cake or whatever it is that's helping. It's often in retrospect where you go, whoa, that was hard. Or we're talking to a friend and we find ourselves talking fast and we start getting emotional tears poor and we don't even we didn't even know it was there no and i think a lot of our lives are spent with things going on that we're not hugely aware of you know but they can be real like cancer or whatever it is we're suffering that's obvious but there's other stuff right that that we're processing from long ago that's deep within us deep we all have it and so i suppose i can't put a finger on it that was the darkest time of my life um but there have been times when i've i've been aware of it and it's caused me to seek help or caused me to question or need to process something um and and so i think i've drawn on those times

1:20:08and the return to love. The moral says, where did your strength come from? When he reconnects from remembering I am loved. It's that notion of light, the notion of connection, the notion that in spite of everything, you are held, you're known, you're loved. has that been the antidote has love been the antidote for your mental health yeah it's been a huge thing i mean that vulnerability and the act of it is like a window into a whole new world of existence and possibility and freedom that you can tell you can say this and it's the most courageous thing and it's just letting a door open and i used to be terrified of that door because what was what was going to happen if i dared open it like oh my god just keep it down and carry on stoically and wow you know and it's not easy and And it's not immediate, but it's this process of discovery that your visceral, raw humanness and humanity is incredible and universal.

1:21:34Yes. Universal. Like, you're not this free everybody. We're all. So just talk about it and connect. And connect. Has that helped with, because I know anxiety is something that I've had challenges with right uh for for many years yeah um i i understand this is definitely same huge same same for you so how do you manage that how do you manage your anxiety i i so i remember um i think i've had low low level anxiety a lot and i've managed it every way but i think that it goes up a level sometimes and presents itself as what i thought i was dying like i thought my heart was going so fast that I was sort of holding onto the wall and like, what is this?

1:22:21And a friend of mine is a doctor. And I called him. I said, I think, I think I might be dying. And he said, describe to me what you feel. I said, my heart's going a thousand miles. I don't know. I have to cling to it. He said, I think I'm going to talk you down from this. And he said, the first thing you need to do is not be frightened of what you're feeling. Don't be frightened of it. It's okay. And he taught me how to not be feared fearful of the fear itself don't be anxious of your anxiety because that just means it builds like a yes a wall is there a technique that you could share that was effective he taught me well there was the breathing thing he said you're a shallow breather okay so he did the four seconds in hold it four seconds out do that for two minutes so i did that and then we discussed a lot about how anxiety can be triggered by nothing at all it doesn't need a valid context or circumstance it can just come out of nowhere which it still does you know just like what yes what is that yes um so i do breathing and i tell myself to to to to not fear it and there's a page in the book about that sometimes things spin out of control and remember that you are not a storm it's not you so it's okay and and um and then obviously in times when it's not going on practice things that help you whether it's meditation nature running some pray some breathe some meditate all these things drawing drawing Yes.

1:24:03Connecting with what you love. Talking, talking. Don't be frightened of what you feel. Don't be ashamed of what you feel. Music. Like swimming in cold water. You can encourage the healthy. I'm not a neuroscientist, and I would never pretend to know that I understood these things, but I know what works for me and some of my friends is I think for me that the journey has been to get to a place where I'm sitting here with Yipol and if I wasn't being filmed I'd say the same thing which is that that that open that door and talk about it I have plenty of friends who didn't and they're not here anymore and it it nailed them and I I sometimes re why it's pointless regret it's a silly thing but had imagine if we'd had the time to really talk about it yes um it's not weakness it's not a failing a lot of men feel like it's such a failing to to struggle with this it's perfectly normal in this world we live in a crazy world and if you if you're sensitive you feel things you're going to feel this it's like you're with you you're an extremely connected brilliant minded highly sensitive individual who's bound to feel anxious at times because you care so much the more you care that i think the more anxious you're going to be about your kids the world what's what's going to happen tomorrow who what's what's going on here like i think not to feel that is almost being numb.

1:25:51So, wow, yeah. But I think it's how we respond to that and how we look after ourselves, you know, that really matters. And I know, you know, sitting here, like in saying these words, that I have like such a long way to go. On the way here, I was panicking, I was going to miss the train. I forgot to lock the door, I had to zoom back. I had locked it, I just thought I had it. I have that whole thing going on. Did I? Didn't I? Didn't I? Did I? Okay, I'll go back. Minutes to spare when I arrive at the station.

1:26:31I'm just a sort of stumbling, fumbling, semi-introverted person who still is winging it. But I think we're learning from each other, and the more we can talk about it, the more we'll learn. Absolutely, absolutely. Like, I don't know much, Paul. But just acknowledging it. There you go. Yeah. I think that's the key to everything is connection, communication.

1:27:02Putting your hand up going, this is me. This is me. Why are we doing this? Why are we? By the way, I don't mean to get all heavy. Like, I don't mean to, Paul. This is a heavy conversation. Right. And what I love most about these conversations is that this is one of those rare opportunities for so many people. Right. This is your opportunity to just reflect with no judgment whatsoever. Yeah. You know, and go back to Zimbabwe and sit there picking the tea, you know. That's what this opportunity is about. that moment okay so when I was picking the tea plucking tea is difficult like I earned one cent literally everyone else is making two dollars a day which is not much but and I remember this guy John who was trying to teach me to pluck and he was laughing at me because you know he was the the elegance of his movements was just like like a machine and they were they were laughing at me me and there was one time at lunchtime when everyone we were laughing and John I remember John stopping like he was just looking at me you know you get to the moment where this this strange pause and he was nodding and I was like what he said you're just the same aren't you and I said yeah he said we're just the same we're all just the same and it was just like oh wow humanity it's just he is white boy from battersea john sub-saharan yes poverty stricken you know and we had this moment when i went and it was it that That moment lasted and lasted and lasted and lasted and we were just like, yeah.

1:29:13And I could see his lights going on and mine. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. It's interesting. I feel like we do this, we do it to this day, but we have to be fully connected and emotionally aware in order to fully, fully download. Download. Yes. And willing and open. Yes, there is. All this division, but come on. It doesn't need to be. No. I mean, this is, you can argue that we're more divided today than ever. You can really make that argument. You could, yeah. I am also, you know, we haven't talked about, so you were diagnosed with ADHD, is that correct? Or was it proper diagnosis? Yeah, or various people, the doctor said, I don't know whether you've diagnosed, but yeah, I mean, people have said you're on the spectrum, which I think, fine.

1:30:07okay he's like yep i don't mind that this is me and it's evident to me that i i definitely struggle with it because in conversations my brain will drift into eight different areas and people say is charlie here today or not well i see charlie is definitely here today very i feel very present here you are here but sometimes like i'm i'm i'm just removed i'm thinking about ideas or something isn't holding me in the moment. Okay. Or I'm unaware that I'm not even there. Ah, I see. Which is why it shocked me when my friend said, is Charlie here today or isn't he? I'm like, oh, I wasn't aware that I'm sometimes not.

1:30:50Yeah. You know, people sort of say, or used to say to me, your attention span is terrible, and yet you manage to do all these drawings. you got to have real attention to do them and I think I realized that the things we can do when we when we struggle with attention issues that hold us that so absorb us that we and it's a place that I with drawings I can just disappear into and I can just and there's something about you I've got this iPad here where I can scribble on. So I have this, and this, I normally draw with ink, but for the sake of argument I can make marks. And I can similarly do, sometimes if I'm on the phone, I find myself drawing the boy.

1:31:53you know, on a branch without even realizing what I, without thinking what I'm really doing, you know. It just, the boy just. Just comes out. Comes. Or, you know, or I'll be thinking about, talking about what I'm doing in the morning or someone's talking to me and I'll be listening. But, you know, I'll be, you know, this comes out, you know. Oh, there's, yeah, there's the horse. You see what I'm saying? You see it. But the lines keep me focused. The lines are actually... Making the marks. Okay. It's something about making marks that calms me down. So if you're making... It holds my attention. So could you make marks and the two of us have a conversation at the same time?

1:32:47You could do that. Yeah. Okay. Could we continue our conversation and you... And I'll just keep drawing. And you doodle a little bit. Okay. Okay. So let's talk about, while doodling, this is probably the best topic, is friendship. Oh, yeah. With your friends and your friendship circle, what do you do? What's a Charlie Hangout friend hangout? Are you playing poker? Are you watching reality television? You know, we talk, it varies. My friends are quite eclectic. and very different so we all have really and they bring out different parts of of me okay which is why when someone dies you sometimes lose that part of you that they brought up which really interests me that is i've lost quite a few friends and the bits we used to laugh about and then silly noises we made and the i'm on unless i can but they're so unique and when i lost barney lovely barney my dog who was also my friend, there was a language I used with him.

1:33:56And I used to say every morning, when I've heard him, I used to say, you're an extremely good little chap. And I would extend the word extremely. And he'd go crazy with the word extremely, because you're extra, extra, extra special like that. And it was his language. And what's amazing for me with those words is that Colin, my Irish friend's daughter, Amelia, who's four, when we were making the book together, I would sometimes, she would say, how did you speak to Barney? She'd say, I'd say, you're extreme. And so she now, he films her running around the garden going, you're extra special. You're extremely good at the show.

1:34:36And so for me, that's something that hasn't died. and I suppose friends to me going back to the original are we can relish the uniqueness of parts of each other that only are there with each other and I love that and they're friends who I can you know people's you know doing nothing with friends is never doing nothing is it and that's a line from a book which I think I like because you don't need to be doing a thing you don't need to be going to football or watching but you can just literally do this and and chat or go for a walk and talk about anything just sitting in silence is doing an awful lot you don't need to fill it you know yes now you you mentioned something that's near and dear to my heart and that was when you said that when when someone passes when a friend passes away there's something lost right yeah so uh often uh on we need to talk i've referred to a friend of mine named andre smith he was my best friend he passed away a few years ago and you said something that now i'm just reflecting on for the first time and that is is that i noticed that there's a part of me that died with him yeah and yeah and and so i wonder you said you mentioned you've you've had many friends who who have yeah who have passed Too many.

1:36:08How do you feel like you've properly grieved for them? That's a great question. I would say, in honesty, no.

1:36:23But I think grief for me is going in installments. And when I was a kid, I had a record by Art Garfunkel. and one of the lines was reality it's not for me and it makes me laugh and I remember thinking I like that because reality I can only take in small doses otherwise it gets too much I think probably the subconscious is quite good on one level about drip feeding stuff to us because sometimes it's just overwhelmed Yeah, too much. Too much. But I think probably what I don't do enough of, which I should probably do, is doing what you and I are doing. Hence the title of your podcast. Yes. Because I think...

1:37:20There's something about the act of talking, I think, takes teaspoons of pain out. And it never goes back. I don't think it ever returns. It's a teaspoon, but it's something. And so the more you talk and process and let go of... And I remember when I was young reading somewhere that so much of life is about letting go, and I got really cross at that. I think, no, it's not, but it is. Learning to let go. Yes. But we're learning through, as you mentioned, through conversation. Yes, we are. Through connection. Yes. But what we also know, unfortunately, for men in particular, that our social circles shrink.

1:38:05Yes, they do. Very true. I mean, for everyone, our social circles shrink when we get older, but it's disproportionate for men. Yes, it is. Yes, it really is. Yes. I read that really recently as well, that the statistics are alarming. And since COVID, they've got worse. Yes.

1:38:28and a good friend of mine the other day who is so able and capable and bright and you know to anyone looking on the surface he has everything he just called me up and then i said how you doing he said i'm really lonely do you get lonely and i said yeah i do get lonely he said well let's work at not being lonely then and it it struck me and i thought you know it's something that does take effort yes that these default relationships because you're around someone and therefore you don't have to make the effort there's a different thing but some so many men they think someone dies they move away this happens, this happens, and people, you know, the ground gets thinner humanly.

1:39:22So you need to choose friends and fight for them. Work at it and have the courage. Ever since he said that, I thought, whoa, that was a courageous thing to say. One could read your books, watch your film, and say, you know, this is spectacular, right? Another could read them, watch, and say, this is a faith-driven message. Where do you sit with faith? You know, faith is interesting. I mean, I think I have friends on the whole spectrum of atheism right through to strong faith. The one thing I have strong faith in is that love wins. Whatever that love is, it wins. That loving you, loving my neighbor, having the understanding that putting weapons down and talking wins.

1:40:37that the enemy that has just ripped me off or done something, if I can see round the back and see why, what's the wider context for this, having the faith that if I love him or her, we will, she or he will change and it will heal our situation. and my biggest struggle you know in is the idea that i can that i can love myself and my neighbor

1:41:15i can't do that very well that's what the journey of this has been all about is how do you see yourself how do you hold yourself how do you value yourself how do you not throw yourself away in situations how do you keep believing that you're enough that you're worth it um and and faith plays a huge part in that yes i think if you can if you can somehow be grateful for any situation you're in it's a good thing and not beat ourselves up yes because i'm a great one for that you know there's in this second book i there's a line where i say you'll have critics thor says you'll have critics make sure you're not one of them because i can be you know like you know here i'm talking to you and i'm trying to give my best side but you know i can get home and go oh charlie why did you say that right what are you doing we think you know and look at you your genes why get some new genes and i don't know it's like like don't yeah don't be that critic Don't be that critic.

1:42:25Don't be that. Give yourself a break. Give yourself some grace. This is so poetic because so every morning I do, and I've done this now for almost seven years, I try to do it consistently, is a gratitude exercise. Do you? So I identify three things from the previous day that I'm thankful for. And I'm going to tell you, Charlie, every morning, boom, pop up. Sometimes I have three, sometimes I'm five, six, seven. this morning I don't know what it was I was struggling I was struggling I was thinking oh my gosh what am I thankful for yesterday like what was it what was it and I ended on I got through it Wow you know I'm here right there you go you know but it's it's it's the basics yeah it is the I'm breathing there you go exactly i'm alive yes i can move the basics the basics and you know what that exercise has done for me is it's now almost rewired my mind to look for oh wow the moments in the day really so that the next the following morning i can now recall that okay so you you you can they're logged they're lodged in you yes recognized and and that wasn't the intention but that's what's happened, which I find to be beautiful.

1:43:50So tomorrow morning, I will most likely say, just having that conversation with Charlie, I'm thankful for. Yeah, well, right now, I'm utterly grateful for it. What I'm scared of is going home going, why did you talk about that? And what, really? That's the critic. And I need to go, you just sit down, because I'm going to be grateful now for getting there. finding Paul's studio yes having the courage to go in the door find out he's a spectacular human not screwing up too much in what you said you know yes thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you yes exactly we need to tell the critic to sit down just just just sit down a second you just because right now and anyone who's listening you know or watching and isn't too bored by this just be aware that you're amazing and and breathe and beat and say thank you for being right here and that you're okay i have to say charlie first is i know on behalf of an endless number of people truly thank you thank you for not just the works the film the books the art but the warm hug that you have given us we deeply deeply deeply appreciate that and i know i speak for many but i'll speak for myself right now and say that and this is this is me being bold this is me being courageous okay but i absolutely love you thank you paul absolutely i i love you too you know with what i know of love i do yes with what with what i know about love with and and you know it was actually the mole the mole is the mole of everyone's favorite by the way or no not everyone's but i think a lot of people say he's my spirit animal that's usually the first one oh yeah that's me the mole yeah the mole because the mole i i believe at one point the mole says uh you know i'm glad we're here but really wanted to i'm glad we're here and i'm glad you're here but yeah but but but deep down wanted to say i love you thank you but didn't have and it and i'm so quick to tell people and quite honestly i'm so quick to especially tell men glad you're here glad we're here yeah that's interesting but not you know what i i love you you know yeah that's so lovely yeah i mean i i takes me a long time to say those things i will take this conversation this conversation i'm going to take truly and it will stay with me forever yeah i agree with that yeah uh yeah i'll remember i'll remember lots of things about but I'll always remember how you made me feel rather than what was said, primarily.

1:47:19I'll go away from here feeling loved and really grateful that I came. So thank you. Thanks for showing me. Thank you. Can I see, what have you been doodling on over there? Are you done? Five minutes a day. Get a blank pad, right? and a soft pencil and just for two minutes draw something even if it's abstract make some marks it can be words or a drawing or it can be one of your kids or it can be anything and then you can either throw it away don't criticize it do it and leave it tear it out and put in the drawer and do that every day every day every day and then do i ever should i go back and reflect if you want to okay but it's not necessary it's think of it like training for a game you're practicing you don't need to go and look back at what you're practicing that's but in the same breath if you enjoyed it and you want to there's no rules there's no rules you can do what you want you're free to look at them or not but what i would say is just enjoy the process rather than trying to get a result so see the process as an end and it's how you feel when you make the marks is what it's about rather than what the marks look like at the end yes so the the process is enough rather than how does it look now than the destination 100 i know that's a cliche but i really with drawing i really believe that's true like i i i think if you can enjoy how it feels it becomes like an it it's addictive and take it with you when you're on a journey draw the back of the driver's head or you know draw the what you see over there or draw what you feel i'm i'm anxious draw the anxiety yes in lines i did a drawing last night and i drew all these trees crazy trees and it was there were because i was feeling anxious about getting a train to come here and and then i did a tiny leaf falling and the mole says

1:49:32that's how you feel but the leaf is all we see so all this turmoil is inside so talk about it talk about it okay which goes to the connection that we talked which goes the connection so but i was started by just scribbling up here it is look i'll show it to you

1:49:54oh wow that was last night oh wow or whatever this could be what you feel this could be what you feel this leaf is all we see and there's the leaf so tell us so we can't see this we can we can only see really that that yes so what are you what are you feeling right now because you need to communicate this i see it um and so all i'm saying is that's what that's what i do last night but it began with a like oh no oh my gosh i'm going to i've got to get a train and i'm gonna have to talk to paul is he going to ask me questions I can't answer. All the... Yes, exactly. And you beat yourself into a state of anxiety, so I drew it.

1:50:37Thank you so much. Oh, do you want to see the drawing? Can we see? Can we see it? It's not very... Just that again. You did it again. You did it again. You did it again. Okay.

1:50:50It says... Oh, my gosh. One day you'll look back and see how hard it was and just how well you did. Oh, my goodness. That is beautiful. Do you want me to send it to you? Please, please, please. Okay. Okay. I can email you now if you want. Oh, please. Please send that. But we can't say our email address here. Okay, yeah. You are one full of email address. I'll send it to you for sure. Okay. Now. All right, super. Thank you. That is it. Yeah, that was lovely. Thank you for having me, and I hope it's made some sense. Oh, my gosh. It was beautiful. It was everything it was supposed to be. Really? It was everything it was supposed to be.

1:51:32Okay. Yes. Well, I've loved it, and your chair is very comfy, and you're so easy to talk to. I mean, everyone will say that. Oh, my gosh. And you're doing such a great thing. Such an important thing, this. Thank you. This is my art. Yeah, well, you're good at it. Sit down, critic. Yes. You're brilliant. Sit down, critic. Sit down. Sit down. Yeah. Get out of here. Get out of here. Okay. Thanks so much, Sean.

1:52:14I love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love Charlie Mackesy. I do. One of my favorite conversations. Not just... We need to talk one of my favorite conversations in life

1:52:33Oh all the time while I'm in conversation Many times I often want to start reflecting on my own life But I realized at the moment I do that I'm leaving the moment with the guest and I don't want to I'm trying my hardest to stay present fully. But when I leave, it will just play out in my mind. You know, what I notice about these conversations is that I feel like the guest opens the door of vulnerability and then closes it. And some guests keep it open for longer, but then eventually it closes and then you have to work yourself back out to a place of vulnerability. Charlie came in and he said, I'm going to open myself up to you.

1:53:18And he never shut the door, ever shut the door. And you could see him reflecting on moments in life that he had not ever. And it just shows you how profound having a conversation is. And he said that over and over again, a conversation can change your life. And I think this changed his life and I know it changed mine. It's going to stay with me forever.

1:54:02The Limu Emu

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