Breaking the Silence on Baby Loss with Perrie Edwards, Myleene Klass & Katherine Ryan | We're Talking Baby Loss Awareness

0:00Hello and welcome to We're Talking. This week, in honor of Baby Loss Awareness Week, we're talking about something deeply personal, miscarriage and baby loss. It's not easy to speak about, but it's a conversation that so many need to hear. I'm joined by Perry Edwards, Mylene Klass, and Katherine Ryan. They share their stories of grief, resilience, and the courage it takes to be honest about experiences that are often kept private. From the uncertainty of pregnancy, to the heartbreak of loss, to the fight for better support. Their stories remind us that no one has to face this alone. So let's hold space together.

0:35Today, we're talking baby loss.

0:49Terry Edwards. Another topic that I want to talk about, and you can go wherever you want on this, is so yesterday just yesterday i was reading an article yeah glamour magazine yeah about you yes and you know what the article the title was the title was why we should stop speculating on perry edwards pregnancy yes i saw that you saw i actually dm'd the writer and i was like say it louder for the people in the back badass energy from you love it yeah you know i was thinking about um uh messaging the the writer as well yeah i messaged her i was like this is brilliant Love it. Can we just talk about just not speculation on you, but just the speculation on pregnancy among women?

1:38Yes. It seems to be prevalent. And I think it's, for me, it feels like it's increased over the years. Yeah. And I think there's a variety of reasons. But why, for example, that article, why did you applaud the writer? And if you could tell everyone even what the article, what the basis of the article was. Yeah. I think, so you can look at it two ways, I guess, with the whole pregnancy thing, right? It's a blessing. It's beautiful. People love pregnant women. And they kind of just want to be like, you're pregnant. You're glowing. And it's a beautiful thing. But at the same time, it's a very vulnerable thing for women.

2:17It's a very private thing for women. and I think you know when you're in the public eye it's true because the article was like if you speculated one of your friends was pregnant you wouldn't shout it on their Facebook or their Instagram be like oh my god you're pregnant you just wouldn't do it for everyone to see I don't think and I think we have to kind of navigate a bit better with that situation because yes it's beautiful and it's exciting and it's speculation and is she pregnant I don't know I want to know but at the same time you don't know what's going on behind closed doors with women and pregnancy's scary it's worrying there's so many things that come with being pregnant and the stresses and the the scans and the problems and the complications and like Alex and I have been through a lot with pregnancies um that people don't necessarily know about um

3:25you don't have to apologize i've held it together so well i knew that was gonna get me

3:35yeah I think it's a sensitive topic for me and I know a lot of other women too and I you know I don't think I haven't necessarily not shared it with people because I'm like ashamed of it or anything it's just that it's like such a personal thing to go through and it's really hard um I did EMDR therapy on it which really helped but it still gets me um but you know I think it's a tricky situation you know me and Alex have been through a lot when it comes to pregnancies and things um Axel's rainbow baby so I had a miscarriage very early on with my first ever pregnancy. And it was so early. I remember finding out I was pregnant.

4:30Obviously, I started bleeding not long after. And I went to the hospital and I had the scan. And they were like, there's no baby. And I was like, oh, I've made this up. Maybe I got a false positive or something. And I remember being on my own at the appointments because nobody was there. And I remember going in to see my gynecologist after with the reports and I was like can you just explain to me what so there was no baby like the baby was he was like no no no my darling you've had a miscarriage and I was like oh okay because I didn't understand I was like I thought you were saying there was never a baby he said no there was a baby but now there isn't and I remember thinking okay and not like insensitively it was it wasn't like traumatizing in the moment because I thought oh it was very early it was one of those things I kind of it didn't it wasn't it didn't impact me that much um and then when I had Axel when I was pregnant with him like I loved being pregnant it was one of the happiest times of my life like I just love carrying baby um and it was lovely but I was a bit on edge thinking oh gosh like i want to get past the 12 weeks i want to get past this and i want to get past every scan and that pregnancy was complete bliss it was perfect everything was great every scan was positive um and then we fell pregnant again after axel maybe a year probably not even um actually yeah not even a year because axel wasn't even walking yet and we were pregnant and I remember thinking right I found out when I was rehearsing for the little mix tour the last little mix tour I was at rehearsals and I thought oh I don't feel good every every symptom under the sun I was like I think I'm pregnant so I remember doing a test finding out telling Alex and he was like this is great and I'm like okay great exciting and then didn't want to tell anybody because I was like I'm gonna wait again with Axel we didn't tell anybody for a very long time because we were a bit cautious making sure everything was okay before we announced it so with this pregnancy I remember being on tour and every night before a show I kept bleeding like too much information sorry but yeah I was like heavily bleeding I remember sitting thinking this is it I've lost the baby it's happening and then I went to like a scan like the next day or something and the baby was still there so the sack was still there but I had a blood clot around the sack and I was like oh my gosh okay this is a miracle baby's still there everything's fine and then again it kept happening every night on tour and I was thinking oh my gosh like I can't cancel the show I have to go out I have to put a brave face on I have to keep my shit together hopefully it's just the blood clot so every night it was just so uncertain of like is it this is it not right so i was completely on edge then obviously it all stopped everything was fine went to the scan 12 week scan baby looked great everything was beautiful we were like oh yeah this is it the clot's gone cleared up everything was fine and um then we went on holiday started to show because it was not long after i had axel so i was like pretty out here um managed to get through the tour though no problem hiding it people just thought i was getting a bit of weight yes um and then got back from our trip to portugal and i think we went for what was a 20-week scan but we were actually 22 weeks and that was just the worst day of my life like horrendous um and i just knew something was wrong in the scan and he just kept going over the same thing over the same thing he was like sorry if i'm hurting you know i was like oh it's a bit uncomfortable like is everything all right and he He seemed like, not angry, but our doctor was just like a bit like, right, he was like on a mission.

8:30And I just looked at Alex and I thought, something's not right. And then I remember sitting down and I remember him just saying these things. But I don't remember what he said. I've never experienced like an out-of-body experience where, you know, when everything goes in slow motion. Yes. And you start hearing, oh, and everything sounds like, like in the movies. Yes. that happened and I was like just sat there and all I heard was like Alex just put his hand on my leg and he went oh no and I was just like oh no this isn't good so then I remember sobbing he was injured at the time and he couldn't really drive he was struggling to drive but I couldn't say straight I was just distraught and yeah we basically lost the baby at like 24 weeks so I think I was just traumatised like it's weird because the first time it happened I think because it was so early I was like oh that's sad but I think when you're fully like carrying and you're 24 weeks and you've planned out like their room and all these things it's really hard yes um but no I've never spoke about it before because obviously I end up a wreck um and nobody knows other than like immediate friends and family and i remember like shortly after like friends would message and be like how's bump and i'd be like there isn't that

10:01um your friend mylene yeah who's who's done a lot of advocacy yeah for uh especially bereavement around miscarriages yeah um i mean she was awarded mbe yeah i know she's incredible i love her so much oh my god something that she said that has just it just stays with me is that when you're going through a miscarriage that the the baby stays with you yeah you heard heard her talk about this yeah the gene caused me it's so incredible i didn't know that it blew my mind i was like oh wow that's so magical like the thought of having that and then if i'm blessed enough to have another baby in the future it makes me feel kind of like that they're still a part of it in some way yes yeah they will be yeah my lean class so you have this family right now you just mentioned it wasn't an easy feat to get to snoop snoopy get a little snoopy right can we talk about that Sure.

11:15It's something that I've talked about a lot because of my campaigning. But when you actually break down where it came from, I mean, every year it felt I was pregnant and every year I lost a baby.

11:36Every year? Pretty much, yeah. So it took us a good four years. You know, the campaigning, I see women who never got their rainbow baby and it's such infinite bravery. It's another level of bravery. Yes. They said never got their rainbow baby. He's my rainbow baby. That term, rainbow baby. What is that term? That's a baby at the end of the rainbow. It's the one that binds you all back together. so I don't know if you're aware of something called microchimerism so this is what just gave me so much peace because I've I struggle with the terminology around miscarriage and women's health anyway and the rainbow that you know it's like the pot of gold the baby at the end of the rainbow that's where the term comes from but microchimerism is a system whereby your body and your baby you recalibrate constantly.

12:36So your baby uses their cells to bolster your main arteries. Now it sounds very scientific but at the heart of it is actually something really beautiful. So your baby cells go to your brain, your kidneys, your liver, your heart. And yours in turn go to theirs. And I think the most unforgiving part of miscarriage is when you lose a child, there's nothing. You don't have photos, you don't have memories, You don't have, do you remember that joke they used to tell? Do you remember their laugh, their smile? You have nothing. It's a void. And you have something worse. You have what ifs or wonder ifs.

13:12Oh, they'd be starting school now. I wonder if they'd have your eyes. I wonder what kind of mother I'd be. It's just torture. But microchimerism really did give me something. And I know it's helped a lot of mothers that I've spoken to about it. Because when mothers subsequently died, they did autopsies. they found those cells still in the mother's bodies. Incredible. So that idea that they leave you, they never leave you, they never go, they're always with you, you just carry them literally in your heart. Yes, yeah, that's incredible. But the real magic is our little Snoopy, our little rainbow baby, he carries all of us.

13:52He has Ava's cells, hero's cells, mine, Sims, and the four babies that went before him. Look at that. So I'm like, oh. Yes. He's like, let go. You get an extra hug. Yeah, I get every single one of us in him. Yes, that's incredible. It's just amazing to know that I still have them somewhere and he has them all. Yes. So that kind of research is so important because it's just purgatory when you lose a child. You don't have anywhere to go. just wandering can we talk about the psychological impact on both the mother but also the father because i don't hear much about the impact on the father i did a documentary and i included sim because of that reason to hear what he had to say because he said you were in so much grief I didn't feel that I could add to your sorrow which is a kind thing to do but also you end up doing this dance of avoidance around each other so I wouldn't want to raise it with him just in case he wasn't thinking about it but then I was always thinking about it so he didn't want to raise it with me in case it triggered me and then we're just that's it dancing around each other we live in a country where women's health is so neglected call it misogyny call it just carelessness call it whatever you like but viagra is on its sixth generation of being improved whereby we can't even get progesterone still in many cases so women have this sort of silent battle constantly and we don't have any data collected on it so we don't officially know how many it happens to we don't know why it happens where it happens so i make my girls fill everything in on an app because i could have done with that information and so could my sister and it turns out my auntie so it is in the family is it related we don't know but i'm not going to let my kids go through that this is a great point because in the research i saw that it was roughly 15 of pregnancies will end in a miscarriage but to your point we don't know who's decided that we don't know you know you know what that's just a figure you read because in the states you need to wait for two consecutive miscarriages before you get any kind of medical intervention.

16:18But here in the UK, you have to wait for three. So there's no logical or medical continuity of care, nor is there any reason as to why that is. Right. Which when they tested my miscarriages, which in, um, some people don't like the scientific side behind it and they throw more of their faith behind it. I wanted to know what had happened that the trisomies that came back were all unrelated so i could wait for 10 miscarriages going by that way of thinking and still not get anywhere right it's so cruel so one should be enough to set those alarms going and that's what i'm working on yes so your work that uh your advocacy should i say has resulted in you having an mbe yep uh which congratulations thank you i Took all the family down there.

17:08Oh, my gosh. It was wild. It was wild. I would imagine. Yeah, parents. It was wild. Yes, yes. But to have the little rainbow baby, to have him standing there. And I just saw him just in my periphery. And his two other mums, his two sisters. And honestly, after everything we've been through, there is no good ending. In order to make change, it doesn't happen in clinics. It happens in Westminster. So I had to get into Westminster. master suddenly i'm a campaigner and never thought i would be on that path but now i have more reason than ever because i can't with all of the knowledge i have and all the experience and knowing what i know and knowing that i can make a big noise about it and have those really uncomfortable conversations with the people that want to shut the door in my face and have done countless times yes you're not going to be a mother on this yes because i've got something far greater and more important to fight for.

18:05So you're campaigning work. Yeah. How has that changed laws and legislation? So bereavement law has just come forward, which means that you're not sick anymore at work. If you have a miscarriage or lose a baby, it means that you now can take what everyone else is entitled to, which is bereavement leave. And you don't have to then have the uncomfortable conversation and explain I'm going to have to say I'm sick I'm going to have to get a doctor's note but I'm actually not sick I'm grieving and you don't have to then explain that you're trying for a child which could then in certain cases thwart where you are in your work, you've got enough to worry about as it is, eventually we'll get to the point where you get paid bereavement leave but this is enough just to start to get a foot on the rung and to be able to say the word miscarriage in the palace of windsor knowing of those those queens that we've learned about in history who lost their babies and the many men and women who've served in the castle and maybe royals themselves but in between you know within those four walls to have the king address miscarriage to have westminster address miscarriage that's where change happens they have to sign the honor off and that's how you can use your name and your privilege and your power it doesn't have to be to get the best table or the club entry it can actually change laws look at that look at that look at your life my Lee yeah I mean I didn't plan on campaigning when I was lying in that bed after I think the second miscarriage was worse than the first I didn't think that was possible I didn't even think that was possible but the first I thought was just awful one of those things that people dismiss and the second one was that i thought we have a problem and by three and four i was tail spinning i didn't even know who i was yeah it just was hell bent on trying to keep a baby but didn't know how to and also you talk about men you know chefs cyclists they're more susceptible we're now learning so if you take if you take a hot bath if you're in front of a fire if you're in saunas if you're drinking alcohol too much caffeine if you drive a lorry long distance drivers cyclists i think i said but yeah we're learning now that the men's contribution is far greater their their blueprint actually builds the placenta so when the placenta fails or there's struggles there actually it might be whatever's happened with the dna the contribution of the male as well okay so as we learn that then we now have to realize hang on a minute this is not just the woman's responsibility if you want to have your your healthy child you have to take on as much of i don't say burden privilege however you want to approach this but your your health plays as big a role if not in certain certain cases more if you're not looking after yourself and your wife is yes you're you're creating a problem for her but before it was always the woman's problem yes the woman's guilt what did you do what did you eat it's one of those things.

21:14It happened to a granny. It just happens. It's God's will. God needed another angel. All of these platitudes that you just don't want. I just want my baby. Yes. Let me ask you something. When was the last time you really thought about how you love? Not who, but how? Most of us don't. We're moving fast, doing life, hoping love just shows up and sticks. But that's not how real connection works. So I've created something different. It's called Love Better, and I'm taking it on tour. A live experience for anyone who wants to build deeper, more meaningful connection. We'll unpack the lessons from the couples you've seen me coach.

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22:32Catherine Ryan You went through this More than once Three times Three times How do you get through that? How do you? I'm a lot more like you Paul Because it takes me a longer time to process things And now Bobby knows the signs Like he grieves right away. He gets visibly like sad and he cries in the scanning room. Whereas I'm a bit more British than that. And I try to make everything okay for everybody in the scan. Yes. I'm like, sorry, really sorry. Don't worry about it. Don't you be upset. It's fine. Like this is very embarrassing for me. Sorry, let's just leave. I'm smiling. Yes. I'm taking selfies on the way out.

23:19You know, it's, and Bobby's thinking, oh, will you please just be sad now? so I outrun it I think now I have a pattern there have been three I sort of know what I'm like the first one knocked us for six that was early we found out at ten weeks in a scan and my embryos I will call them fetuses or embryos whatever you want to call them would be future babies they hold on as well which I feel is traumatic. It doesn't just happen like it does in the movies where you bleed. I don't find out until I am in a screening with a doctor and they just notice on the scan there's no heartbeat. That's what's happened every time.

24:03And then I have to have surgery. Otherwise, it just won't come out. So the first time I waited to see if it would resolve itself and it didn't. And that waiting time, I just went a little bit mental. If you don't mind me using such a triggering word, people don't like that word anymore but I went fully mental I kept working I acted like everything was fine and all the while in my head I'm like I am a walking tomb like I am pregnant with a dead baby and nobody knows and then I started again I think I feel very tribally about women and all of a sudden I'd look around I think oh the lady on the cash register at the Morrisons might also be pregnant with a dead baby and this woman's moving about her life just pregnant with a dead baby and I could not sleep I couldn't think of anything else than like what is going on and when will it resolve and where does it go and like thinking spiritually thinking of all these things um and then finally I had the surgery and and only at that point was I able to even hormonally climb down from the place I was in because I think your body and your whole endocrine system starts to go, well, where's the baby?

25:12What happened? And then I felt sad for my husband. I felt that I'd let Bobby down somehow. I felt that my autoimmune disease was probably responsible, which like it probably was. And then you start questioning like, if I want something so much, like why is my body working against me to hurt a baby, but all of my immune system is firing like sees it as an intruder that's what I thought and I was just it's such a disconnect and the second time we found out at 13 weeks which was later I knew straight away to get the surgery and there was something wrong with the development of that fetus early on it didn't have any chromosomal things but its stomach wall wasn't forming properly so we had a bit of a warning that that might go that way and then the third time uh she did have like a syndrome that was not compatible with life and that ended we found out with the heartbeat on the scan fine and that time I thought would be the easiest because I'd been through it so many times but um that was after Fred and Fena so I knew I kind of had another uh rekindled optimism.

26:25I thought this was going to work. And when it didn't, I went straight from the surgery to work, which I've done too many times. And the doctor's always like, can you please not? And I'm like, take your mind. You know, I just have to move forward. And I went on stage that night and then I was filming the next day and I just keep doing that until I finally have a breakdown. And then Bobby's like, here it is. And then I get just really sad. It's the sadness that I don't, I can't even explain. It just feels so bad when you're in it. And I try to hold on to that feeling because remarkably, you forget.

27:00And you say, you still think about the baby that you lost. You still think about it, but your body kind of puts it somewhere and you don't think about it every minute and you're able to function and you move on. But the women and the men who are in that situation, they feel so lonely because nobody talks about it. People move on from it. It's shameful. They sweep it under the rug. So I try to stay connected to that initial feeling of grief only because I know people going through it are so alone because I felt really alone at that time. And I'm fine about it now. And I see the reason for it now.

27:34I rationalize it now. I know it's part of life. I don't blame myself anymore. But in those moments, it's just like you're in like a hormonal snake pit. You just cannot climb out. Thank you for watching or listening. I want to say, if these conversations resonated with you, you are not alone. Miscarriage and baby loss affect so many people, yet they're often kept in silence. Hearing these stories, sharing this space, and checking in with those around us is how we start to break that silence and create connection. We've included links to support charities in the episode description if you need them.

28:11And if you want to hear more of the full conversations with Perry, Mylene, or Catherine, you can find them on the We Need to Talk YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcasts. It's in these conversations that healing begins. Thank you for being part of it.

28:42Thank you.