Can Anxious People Date Avoidants? We're Talking Attachment Styles

0:00Good sleep is everything. That's why OLLI's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-theanine for both kiddos and grownups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find OLLI's sleep solutions for the whole family at OLLI.com. That's O-L-L-Y dot com. Dr. Amir Levine, your book, Secure, I Was Privileged Enough to Read, is also one of the most important books. The whole thing of this book is devising tools to help the anxious and the avoidant. How to navigate the social world better to create a secure, enriched environment.

0:44So this resonates with me. I remember reading that part of the book thinking, this is wild. But really what it looks like, what it really requires is something that I've come to call. Hey there. Before we begin the episode, I just want to say thank you for choosing We Need to Talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life. And I want to continue to share it with you. So hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast.

1:28Now, you said something also that I agree with, but help everyone with this. So do avoidance look for other avoidance as romantic partners? If you're anxious, do you look for other people who are anxious? Do secures look for secure? Who are we looking for? So I personally believe that, and I know like maybe some people are going to have an issue with it, but that's my personal belief. Just from understanding sort of biology, I think that we choose the people that we're attracted to. And we don't know who they are. And I think a lot of it has to do with much more rudimentary stuff, like how they smell, what they look like.

2:16I think it's much more that. And then we find out who they are. That's what I think. But the studies actually show that oftentimes, they don't really show who we are attracted to, but they show what kind of relationships. So they didn't find that many avoidant and avoidant relationships. Although then since then, I've had patients who were in avoidant and avoidant relationships. And also I've encountered people in avoidant and avoidant relationships. And again, also what's important on this questionnaire, you'll see it's more of a spectrum. Yes. And and we can so we so it's not like all black or white.

2:53And people say, oh, avoidance never care about other people. But I've had many like I've had patients and I know people who are very caring but are still avoidant. So the way that they will translate, it will be remember one patient. He said, oh, I was like you started dating someone and he was great and he was really great. but his back was hurting and they were on a plane. So he moved forward to the seat in front because there's room so he can stretch out. And then he just stayed there until the end of the flight. And then when they landed, his new girlfriend was so hurt and upset because he didn't go back to sit next to her.

3:32Yes. But it didn't even occur to him. It's not like he didn't care about her. He was dumbfounded by why was she upset. And I find that to be more the case with avoidance. They don't really know oftentimes. There's a movie that I like, that I love, that really shows you a lot about attachment styles. It's 500 Days of Summer. Okay. Because in there, the woman is the avoidant. And there's a bar scene where she talks about it. She said, no, I don't want to run a relationship. I don't actually believe in love. And I'm fine being on my own. I'm happy being on my own. and the guy who's actually anxious and kind of falling for her, he's like, well, what do you mean you don't believe in love?

4:13It's not like Santa Claus. And then his friends tell her, oh, wow, you're a dude. You sound like a dude. So that's why I say they're all the blind leading the blind. They don't understand, no, she's not a dude. She has an avoidant attachment styles. Women have avoidant attachment styles too, not only men. So many women that I talk to, they'll quietly say, yeah, I'm avoidant. I just don't like too much clothes. You're like, I'm that way. But once you explain to avoidance, your response is not everyone else's response. You are the minority. Like the fact that when something bad happens to you, you don't reach out to someone for help, that you solve it yourself.

4:50That doesn't mean that other people don't need help. Yes, this is true. You just said something that also, I'm not sure if I've seen stats on this, is do, because the media, I feel like, pop culture presents women as predominantly secure or anxious and men as predominantly avoidant, I think. So wrong. Yeah. If you're looking at gender splits, if you will, do you have any data on that? I think that the majority are, it's really hard to do these, to gather these data in the population. And especially now because we know that it's more of a spectrum and they don't really look at it more in categories, which is also something that has changed a lot.

5:35And it was important for me to mention in the book and really explain about that more, what it means. Because it gives us a chance to shift and change. But I think the way that I like to answer that is that there's plenty of men that are anxious. plenty of them and sometimes and then like even I can think about a father of a friend who's like this really big tough surgeon and like every few hours he's calling his wife what's happening what's happening and the wife everything is still the same nothing has changed since five minutes ago when you called last the good news is the majority like there's a good chunk of secure people out there.

6:13And actually, I use that fact in part of that secure priming therapy to help people insecure the way that you were helped to help people who are insecure to teach them how to navigate their social world better. So to create what I like to call a secure enriched environment, because that's how our brain changes. Okay. Okay. If I can ask just one more on the choosing and the attaching. Oh, yeah, yeah. I love talking about that. Yeah, this is your area too. Yeah, yeah. So you're saying, okay, we first are attracted by physical consent, and I'm with you. I feel that's the same way. And then we either get lucky like me and say, oh, my gosh, I'm in a partnership with someone who's secure or not.

7:01What happens if you are either anxious or you are avoidant or a fearful avoidant and you're in a relationship with someone just like you? Is that cause for leaving the relationship? When you're a fearful avoidant or you're avoidant in your relationship with someone just like you? Yes. And then there's also the anxious anxious and the anxious avoidant. Okay. So what they find is sometimes with avoidance, like when they try to get together because they're both, I'll do my own thing and then I'll do my own thing. And then sometimes, so, okay, they're both doing their own thing and there's no glue that puts them together.

7:40So sometimes that doesn't work out because of that. Like if everybody, like if one does like, but not always, because if they're very attracted to one another, in a way it can work. No one expects anything of the other. so if it may not be working because they might be going off and doing sort of but sometimes even that works I'm going to say oh cheating on one another but if they're in agreement and they have an open relationship I mean or they have like pulling there's so many different there's more and more now people accepting different types of sort of non-ethical again because I stay I love this whole way of looking from the attachment perspective Is it working for them?

8:23That's fine. If it's not, let's find a way to fix it. The whole thing of this book is devising tools to help the anxious, the fearful avoidant, and the avoidant. And they each, it's the same tools, but each attachment style has to learn to use it differently. And you can use it from actually from your dating profile. You can start there and like from the first date, you can use some of those tools. Okay. So let's talk about the tools and the practicality. So let's start with anxious because I think there's a lot of people who place themselves in that category for some reason. If you are anxious, you are single, or you're in a relationship with someone who's not secure but you're anxious, practically, what should you be doing?

9:13Right. So I think it's not that they're the vocal minority, right? Yes. because they're the vocal minority because they're suffering. It's like, I need help. Opponents like, I don't need anyone. Don't help me. I'm finding my own way. And then like securers are just busy having their own like good relationships. You don't hear about them. And that's why like, in fact, they exist in our life and we just like don't even pay attention to them because they think we think that they're kind of boring. They always text us back. There's never any drama. So we don't barely notice them. And that's part of the big shift that I help people do is like, no, these are like the gemstones in your life.

9:52Instead of like really, which anxious really tend to do is pay a lot of attention to those who haven't texted back. Those like, shift your attention. Don't look there, even though your brain wants you to look there, but we can control it. Shift it. And instead of like, why aren't you texting me? Well, like question mark. Are you there? Then text the person who will text you back and sort of really create, like shift your social milieu. So I'll talk about the tools. Okay. Really, what it really requires is something that I've come to call the five pillars of secure attachment, which consists about you have to learn to be consistent, available, responsive.

10:36And then it's not enough to think, oh, I'm consistent, available, responsive. I'm so good. I'm so great. It's also important. It's like a two-factor authentication. You have to make sure that the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable. And this is the acronym. I call it CARP. Consistent, available, responsive, reliable, predictable. And if you can learn how to do that and you can also teach others how to be that way with you, then you've created yourself a secure environment. Interesting. Okay, so this is, if you are avoidant as well, you should be using CARP. Yes, but in a different way than anxious.

11:18Ah, okay. Yes. Okay. So another very important part, so this is the part from the attachment sort of world that I sort of created that tool there. But then I married it together with something that I took from the lab, from my bench work, which is really understanding how the brain changes in the most fundamental way. And, you know, when people go to therapy, they think the change will come from talking about my childhood events and drawing sort of inferences from childhood to adulthood, which I question, and there's a chapter about that. But, or talking about the really big, difficult things that have happened to me over my life.

11:58But from the brain's perspective, we often miss what I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life. Those little things like my interaction here with you now. Like if I said hello, I didn't say hello to the person in the elevator this morning. Did I create a bond? Did I even just a little bit of an interaction with the person that brought me here? So those seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life, as an epigenetic neuroscientist who learned how the brain changes really on the structural level, these are instrumental in actually changing the brain, the molecular structure of the brain.

12:44And in fact, if you remember any of this conversation tomorrow, or if the listeners remember any of this conversation tomorrow, there's been some structural changes in your brain and in your brain. It's not enough to be consistent, available, and responsive in those big gestures. You have to make sure that you're a carp in all of those sinis. And that helps you. That is like the key to becoming carp. And avoidance and anxious have to deal differently. Like avoidant have to learn to, they're like the mother in the strange situation test. They're the ones who leave in the room. And then the child is there like, what's happening?

13:24Save me, help me. And like, what do you want? I was just there with you for like a long time. Now I need my time alone. Well, you can't just leave the room like that. That's kind of like, that's from our nervous system, hates it. It's just like we have like this thing that constantly, you have to, even a small text, you have to learn to do these little things that will give you your space. What you're doing now is the opposite of what you want to do. Yes. And it backfires. So this resonates with me. And this actually even supports because, you know, it's so fascinating what you're saying to me because looking at my, you know, my data from the topography calculator, hearing what you're saying is I realize that I show up as an avoidant with my friends.

14:10I have a high level of avoidance with my even though these are my friends. Yeah. I am notoriously the one who doesn't message. I won't send a message. I won't even respond back sometimes. And some people get highly upset, and I'll apologize three weeks later. Right. So it sounds like what you're saying I need to do is I need to be carp with my semis. Yes. And you even said yourself, some people get upset. Yes, they do. And I'll wait for weeks, and then I'll apologize. but my brain, something, I don't know what it is, but in my brain it's just that I don't need to respond right now. I really, I love that you gave that example of yourself because in the book I actually start the chapter about avoidance, about like the, and I think I even call it being comfortably close with a measure of distance, something like that.

15:10It's like I really tried to normalize it because there's this myth that avoidants are the way they are because they were not giving enough emotional support as children. But I've had patients who were like loved and coddled as children. And I was. Yeah. Beyond belief. Yeah. And it's just like and we've done so much sort of blame the parents in psychology. Like gay people are gay because they've had like distant fathers. You know how many gay people I know that have loving doting swatters? Yes. It's just like we've made those connections. And I don't blame people. Our human brain is built, and that's why I wrote a whole chapter about causality.

15:49Our human brain is built to make those connections. And actually, when I became a scientist, I discovered how hard it is. It's like the holy grail of science is to find causality. And it's so hard. And look at all the papers that are recently getting retracted or redacted because it's just so hard to prove these claims. Yes. And so many times we failed and blamed the whole generation of mothers for causing schizophrenia, whole generations of mothers, what's called the refrigerator mothers, for always the mother. For some reason, the father gets a break for causing autism, like horrible things that people have to carry.

16:26And even this whole thing about then you start looking at your past in a certain way. And that actually is a form of insecure priming, because oftentimes secure people are able to look at their past, not just from an idealized way, but in more measured ways. Like, yeah, some bad things happen. Also, some good things happen. So I got sort of, you see, I went over there because I'm very passionate about that. But to tell you, I find what is supported about avoidance is that some animals, even you can start with, and I give you an example, like some dogs love closeness. They're going to be, you can see on TikTok, they're like, they're having their face in your face all the time.

17:05like so clingy. And then some dogs, they still love you, but they'll stay at the edge of the bed. Yes. So this whole negotiating distance and closeness, it's part of our biology. And we do that with different members of our being, right? So are you saying that we could be secure maybe with a partner, avoidant with a coworker? Yeah, I mean, remember, you still fall under the secure sort of like sort of box there. But no, but you can also be avoidant with a coworker or even one particular person. Maybe someone who's for some reason, whatever Jill did, she was able to kind of like draw you in. And I often say that avoidants are like stray cats.

17:53You have to put the milk out and then they come on their own terms to drink the milk. And I don't know if that's what happened with you or not. That's funny. But whatever she did, she was able to draw you in and make you feel comfortable with whatever closeness she offered you. So you were able to like, okay, this is safe. No one is trying to sort of like, how come you're not answering? How come you're not? I can live with this. This feels comfortable. And you can potentially come and go with less drama. And like, this just feels more comfortable. but with friends you still may not want all that huge closeness but what I'm trying to teach avoidance it's like there's a way that you can do it you can say hey sorry really busy couple of days we'll get back to you in a week because it's not just about responding right away that's what people have to understand and they're really going to great lengths it's a little bit more nuanced than that it's all about a form something that I call an attachment homeostasis, like a baseline.

18:59We all have an idea of a baseline. If you call me once a week, I'm not going to expect you to call every day, and it's not going to trip my alarm that you're not calling in the middle, because I expect you to call once a week. If they're learned that you're going to text them, and some of your friends, I'm sure, have learned, and don't take issue with it. Yes, yes, they have. They're like, this is Paul. Yeah, exactly. This is him. So you've created a baseline Yes. And I have an example in the book about a mother whose kids went off to college and whenever she called them, they were very dismissive and it was painful for her.

19:32And the way that she found a way to connect with them and keep that attachment thread is by their shared fitness apps. And so they saw each other, they're sort of thumbs up for what they do for her when she exercises, she does it to them. And there's that, again, that connection keeps like it kept alive. I see it. I see it.

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20:53Can anyone tell me why roaming fees are always so expensive? I feel like every time I get back from traveling overseas, I'm hit with a jaw-dropping phone bill. It's actually why I'm excited to try our new partner, Saley, an eSIM app that gives you a safe and secure data connection anytime you travel. And most importantly, without any expensive roaming charges. Now, quite a few of my team used Saley during our last trip to LA, and all accounts were that it was reliable and easy to set up. Saley is available in over 200 destinations, and it comes with built-in security features like web protection and ad blockers, the stuff you don't typically think about.

21:31But actually, when you're traveling, it's really important to keep your data protected. But the part that really pulls me in is that I can change my online location to the UK. So even if I'm somewhere else, any location-blocked content is still accessible. To give it a try, download Saley from the App Store or scan the QR code on the screen. And if you want 15 % off your first purchase, make sure you use my code WNTT at checkout. Details are in the episode description. Oftentimes, what I read is that as a result of social media, it's actually driving this loneliness epidemic. And loneliness is connected with avoidance somehow.

22:13Now, how much of that is is is myth or fact? So I think it really depends on how you use social media. If you use it to connect with people and meet up more and do more things, then. And I think the whole loneliness thing is also it's it's more from what I understand. I'm not a big loneliness expert, but from what I understand is it's more of an inner feeling because sometimes the same people can have the same amount of connection. but some feel I'm all alone in the world and others will feel, no, I'm connected to others. So that actually is very important. I'm glad that you're actually mentioning that because I really start the book Secure about something that our brain really loathes.

22:59Our brain really, and that's like one of the most important things to understand, our brain hates being excluded or it hates that disconnect. So it's something that's called the solvable, I call it the solvable effect. It's actually based on the solvable experiments. And that's when basically it's this amazing body of research where they had like you basically, you're playing very rudimentary video game when you're like one of the characters and then you play with two other people. You play in Game of Catch and all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. and what they find is they find both a psychological really profound psychological effect but also the brain effect and the brain effect are that areas that are associated with pain and distress and self-scrutiny really come online in a huge way and then psychologically it makes you feel less in control of your life it makes you have less self-esteem and that life is less meaningful the things that you think are specifically related to how you feel about yourself are actually related to how you connect with others.

24:11And the other thing that they found is that it's almost impossible to mitigate. So in one experiment, they gave people money. It's like whenever they're not going to throw it in your direction, we're going to give you a prize. No, you still have the same horrible effects of exclusion. And then in one, I don't know how they even approved that study, but they had minority students. like they were told that the other two are members of the KKK. Yes, I remember reading this in the book. And it's like crazy because still like despicable people are playing with you and they're stopping. Why would you care?

24:45Their brain still cares. No, it does. I've actually, I remember reading that part of the book thinking, this is wild. However, I understand. I recall being in spaces where I felt dismissed just by someone looking at me. And I cared about that because I saw them connect with someone else. And is this, in the book, is it still facing? So the soluble effect is when you're like, there's two other, like this exclusion by more, and it's still facing. I'm glad you brought that up. It's like, so you can be also suburballed with only one person when all of a sudden they disconnect. And that's based on the still face experiment.

25:31And it's kind of like the same idea. It's looking at the same neurocircuitry, that surveillance system, and what happens when we disrupt it. Basically, what happens when you don't text your friend back and you disrupt that connection that they feel with you and how horrible it feels to them. Sorry to bring that up. I'm seeing it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, so in the still face experiment, they ask the, again, those poor mothers and their infants to come in. And they sit them across from each other. And they ask them, oh, you do what you do with a child. And you babble with them. And the child, oh, you can see it on YouTube.

26:11It points at things. And they're having a great time. And then they ask her, okay, look back and look back and just have completely blank face. and the child immediately reacts to sort of the change of the disruption in the connection and he tries to get the it's actually hard to see that video i have to say every time i see it i kind of like but it's fine it's really important because you get it you understand how this neurocircuitry works also in adults the child hey look at this look at this it tries to grab her attention back her attention and when she keeps going they start to get upset they look away and they withdraw and then they start really like crying and get really upset.

26:46That's the part that's hard to watch. But then quickly the mother re-engages and they start smiling and there's a happy ending there, but it's good. But it just showed to me, I also, I always show this still facing experiment to patients because I want to explain to them and especially to avoidance what happens. it's like when you are when you sort of like cut off that attachment thread and especially people avoidance when they fight there's like okay I'm not responding anymore I can't do it anymore and then they'll just say but what do you want I'm not saying anything what do you want from me not from a place but they're not realizing that they're actually engaging in a really from the point of view of the brain they're engaging in an incredibly aggressive act it's like no less it's faithful it's no it's like I mean, I don't know.

27:35Maybe it's just like from the point of view of the brain, it's almost like you're slapping someone across the face. It's hard. If you cut off human connection, it seems like that is one of the worst things you can do to the brain. I really, really understood it when I was like several years ago. I went on a safari in South Africa, and they took us on a little walk out in the wild, usually on a little scar. You feel protected. No, we were walking outside. Yes. And we had one person with a rifle behind us and one person with a rifle in front of us. But they told us to sort of really make sure we walked in a single file.