Chloe Sims: I Had To Be "Desperately Single" To Get Booked... How Reality TV Broke Me

39:46Oh, no. And by 60, you know what you're going to be asking? Can he walk up steps? Yeah. Has he got any hair? Does he have any hair? What? No, Paul, I need you to help me out. Please tell me you've still got your contacts in New York. Oh yeah, yeah. You see these dating apps? Yes. I know I'm going off your subject, but I can't help it. When I went to LA, I joined a couple of dating apps because no one knows me there. This is true. I can be whoever I am. That's true. I did it. I went on three dates. It was a fucking nightmare. Yeah. They're insane. And also, I don't go for looks. Like, I can appreciate good looks, but I don't go for looks.

40:25I can't go for the feeling. No, it's the Bluetooth. It's the magic. I can't tell through an app. They're all awful. They're awful in my age group. I have thoughts. I do. That are non-dating app thoughts. But overall... Dating apps don't work for me. They're not working. I'm looking and I'm like, no, no. I can... If me and you sat together, you'd be horrified because the things I pick out about people is really bad. Yeah, I think that would be hard for you. I think meeting through mutual friends, but outside of the UK, is for you. So you need introductions in New York, or it could be anywhere. But we're going to get to guys.

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42:44Brothers, tracking the highs and lows of the pair over the course of 40 years. Starring Emmy Award winner Richard Gad and BAFTA Award winner Jamie Bell. Halfman premieres April 23rd on HBO Max.

43:04You said that it was still, it was that same night though, you met the PA, Ellie, who's now your good friend but so how did she then oh right yeah how did she change so we become friends and then she ended up moving in with me um i had a i had a it was like a two-bedroom house but it had two reception rooms so we took one of the reception rooms into a bedroom and then she could split the rent with me and she also helped me with maddie you know so and she was like we were really like close and like we still are really really close so anyway she's ended up living with me she's working for Simon she's overhearing stuff one day she come back and she's like listen you know that show you like the hills they're making an Essex one and Simon and his then girlfriend are going on it and she's like I've got the number you need to ring them and that honestly to me I was like what the fuck are you talking about I'm not ringing them do you know what I mean what are you insane I could ring just ring a producer like that sounded crazy like so she she rung on her phone and just went like that and I remember I was in my kitchen and I was like scared you know I was like hello and then anyway it was the producer she was from Liverpool she had a scarce accent and she's like we'd love to meet you blah blah blah and I went and met them had a drink obviously they were interested back then they didn't have a channel it was like a pipe dream do you know what i mean okay so the show had not started no i don't they didn't even have a channel at that point it was just a concept okay and they were like casting i guess maybe i don't know what they were doing i sent no tv back then so anyway that was that i was like flattered that they liked me and they said from now on can you keep like a weekly diary and send it to us of what you get up to throughout the week.

45:01So I was like, all right then. I was doing my Playboy job, so obviously that's quite interesting. I was going to France. It was French Playboy, which is a franchise. Okay. And so is it a club for French Playboys? No, it was basically, I don't know what you would call it, a promotional thing. So clubs would book us. So they had the right to use the Playboy stuff. They had the Playboy car, the Playboy merch, and then the playboy out costumes, I guess. And they'd have four bunnies, and we would be booked to go all round France, Switzerland. Oh, my goodness. So, like, I partied in, like, the VIP club in Saint-Tropez.

45:40I used to do go-go dancing there. Sometimes we'd be on a beach party. Whoever booked you could be a casino in Cannes, you know. And it weren't just nice, bougie places. It was far out, weird places too, like, in the middle of nowhere, in the sticks in France. France is massive. Yes, yes. And like also the people in France, especially in them deep places, they're not like in Paris. They're like really just not looking like a Playboy bunny. So when we come stalking in, you know, like all tall with our little bodies hanging out, they were like, whoa, you know. Was that just in that experience? Because I remember seeing images of my aunt as a Playboy bunny because I didn't even know she was.

46:23Like it was one of these, you know, secrets that I didn't know about. And then all of a sudden I saw these photos and it was like, oh, my God, that's you out there. And I remember her saying that she learned a lot about just people, you know, and men and how people interact. What would you say that you learned being a Playboy Bunny? Well, I don't know, because that was like when I used to like drinking. So I was just a bit crazy and drunk. And we were treated like celebrities. and people that followed that playboy france would follow us around to different venues they would yeah so like i would we would stand there would be a moment where people could have a photo in front of the step board or whatever it is and they'd be like do you remember me and like they'd be going look and they'd had a photo with you a couple of weeks ago or a month ago it was a bit like you was treated like a celebrity interesting and i was like obviously totally here for that you know because i was like yeah i was here for it like walking in the club with security table roped off playboy tour car flights i was catching the flights that i didn't think i'd be getting yes every week i was on a plane so i felt pretty bougie and like so you enjoyed it i liked it but you were partying though i was getting drunk yeah yeah yeah because it was the weekend as well so i worked and partied and got paid and then i'd monday to friday go back to being my mom okay look at that look at that so the that's part of your weekly schedule so those producers for uh towie which for the five people who don't know the only way is essex yeah right so those producers for and the show had not yet hit air as you said no they must have loved that schedule yeah but they wanted me to leave uh stop being a playboy buddy yeah basically one by the time they got a channel they met up with me again and i was like we can't tell you what channel it is but it's a really good one but you're gonna have to leave your job and we're not gonna pay you and i was like are you mental do you know how good my job is other than towie as a single broke mom being a playboy bunny was actually amazing imagine my facebook pictures you know like what i was like you're mad i'm not doing that and then also just to add insult at the time big brother was on and people were coming out of there really hated like you know like really like to the point where people were like sending death threats and shit and i knew that my personality is my might Like I knew that there's a good chance that I could be loved or hated.

49:05And I remember laying in bed and looking at Maddie and thinking, is this the right thing to do? Like, is this right for her? You know, she was like so little and innocent. And I was like, I just wasn't sure. Okay. Yeah. I'm not saying going to France every weekend and getting drunk was great either. But was it good to put myself out there like that? What if I wasn't received well? Yes. So I was scared all round. Plus, I just weren't going to leave my job. absolutely not wow um so I didn't do it I turned it down turned it down yeah and the the producer at the time she only did that season which makes me a bit sad because I didn't get to work with her she moved to Made in Chelsea and she kept ringing me and she was like but please let me just meet up with you please like let me just have a chat with you this could change your life I was like no I got on my high horse and then I started getting freaked out because I was like why are you so on my case to do this?

50:00I started getting the horrors a little bit, you know, not thinking it's because she sees something in me. I started thinking she's trying to do me over in some way, you know. So I was like, no, I'm not doing it. I turned it down. You turned down meeting her. Yeah. So you had turned down the series, the first series. I turned it all down. I was like, leave me alone. Okay. And then I carried on doing Playboy Bunny. and then I remember going through Luton Airport, which is an absolute crap hole, by the way, and I went past the newsstand and all the magazines was TOWI, every single one of them. So what do you do next?

50:39So then a producer, I wouldn't be able to tell you who, contacted Simon's then-girlfriend to get my phone number and said, can we get a number? So obviously I was like, yeah, of course, that went to Ellie and then it went to me. And I was like, yeah. And obviously I was like a bit taken back at what they're calling me for. And they said something along the lines of we're contacting everybody that didn't do season one for whatever reason to see how you're feeling now. So I was like obviously very keen to do it. Yes. And back then they were very strict on secrecy. You wasn't allowed to tell anybody.

51:20So I didn't tell anybody. I was so, I needed that chance so much at that point that I didn't tell a soul except for Ellie and my dad. That's it. Nobody knew, including Joey. Joey did the same to me. Oh, wow. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah. Your own cousin. We didn't know. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I didn't know about him. He didn't know about me until I was in one of the meetings and they were talking about my family, whatever. and I said, Joey, I must have said Joey Essex. I don't know why, what I would have been saying. And I remember the reaction of the producer's face. And he was like, your cousin's Joey Essex.

52:01But I was confused because Joey was a kid then. So I was thinking, how do they know Joey? You know, it didn't even cross my mind that he was being cast for the show. Look at that. And they was like, your cousins, like first cousins. And I was like, yeah. And that was it. The rest was history. Look at that. Look at that. Yeah. So you had to quit Playboy. Oh, I was well over it by then. Yeah, I was done with that. I was then funny who's got thrown right out the window. Oh, no, you threw away the funny. I was out, yeah. All right, so you now land on TOWIE. This is the second series. Yeah. Okay. And I didn't realize this, but you know this.

52:40You were the longest-running cast member, the history of TOWIE. Do you know how many series you were on? Um, I'm going to say 29. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. 29 series. Yeah. 29. And I was 29 when I joined. So that's a series for every year. Yeah. Gosh. Now think about that. So when you think about TOWIE, right, there's so much that we could talk about. But what immediately comes to mind? Because sometimes people reflect back at projects and they're uncomfortable with them. They don't want to be associated with them. Sometimes they're very appreciative of what they did. What's your perspective on your time with TOWIE?

53:30When I think of TOWIE, like, it's fond. It's fond memories. It was hard, Paul. Like, I joined TV when there weren't a lot of roles. And there weren't all this, like, you know, like, they just, it was different TV times. let's put it that way they was allowed to be little rascals but overall I had a blast I had 10 years of an absolute blast like there was a lot of highs and lows don't get me wrong but it completely changed my life overnight like that and it had a lot of negativity it was like a you know bit of a seesaw but as far as like where I am today I could never have got this without Taui I would never have, I wouldn't have this.

54:17I wouldn't even be sitting with you. We wouldn't know each other if it wasn't for that. You said it changed your life like that. Overnight. Overnight. How so? Well, I went on a TV show for two weeks, didn't tell a soul. I let it go out. Can you imagine what happened with my phone? I didn't have any social media. I only had Facebook, which I disabled because that was what advice I'd been given. Okay. And one of the other cast members, she made me a Twitter. I didn't even know what Twitter was. I didn't have it. She was like, you need Twitter. And she set it all up. And I remember my Blackberry going, pimp, pimp, pimp, pimp, pimp, pimp.

54:52It was like crashing because it was so mental. This TV show just was so big. Yes. I had a very negative entrance, again, about my looks because now I took it too far. So now everyone was like, oh, look at her lips. Look at her missing tooth. she's this, she's ugly, blah, blah, blah. So I had all that negativity. Interesting. But that's not Towie's fault. They were just filming me how I was, you know? But like the press, yeah, they were... It was terrible, is the way to describe them. They were allowed to talk about us in any which way they were allowed. It was like a given then. They used to call me like car crash Chloe and talk about my looks and use really unflattering photos.

55:38But I didn't really give a shit. I was making all this money. I was getting chased by paps. Me and Maddie were living. I was thinking I've done it. I've sorted me and Maddie out. We're good. You were like, I've arrived. Yeah. Next minute, I had a brand new car, brand new out the showroom. Like, that girl that was stood in the shop, who didn't have anything, just paying her rent. Suddenly, I had it all. I went off to LA, started taking Maddie on lovely holidays. And I thought, wow, like, it's like a rags to riches overnight story. Where does the money in the early time of TOWIE, where does the money come from?

56:19Because what I understand is they weren't paying you. No, they didn't pay in Series 1. In Series 2, they paid for your expenses, which was£50 every time you filmed, not per day. And at the time, we were filming like six days a week. But we was earning money from magazine interviews, appearances, and PAs. Lots of money. I see. Money that I hadn't had ever. So it's not lots of money compared to like what the Kardashians have got. Right. But a lot of money in comparison to what I had. Yes. Yes. So I see. So as soon as the show hits the air, it starts coming in. Yeah. Like people wanted to do fake tans with me, clothing lines with me.

57:04Plus you're getting given everything. Yes. So you're not even really spending as much money now. I didn't even really have to buy stuff. That stuff, tell a lie. that did come later the first season I did make money but this is a true story when I joined I had my life savings and it was one thousand pounds and I remember having to dip into that to get clothes originally because I needed the clothes to wear because obviously six days a week I didn't have enough clothes for that yes so yeah I remember dipping into that but then I started getting my deals and everything for free interesting yeah but even dip I would imagine because you'd been saving that for that thousand pound was my like lifeline that was my my nana way said always have something put away for an emergency and don't spend it and even if i borrowed something out of it i'd always put it back you know okay so and you dipped in to buy and some people would say you dipped in to buy clothes but it seems like your plan was no when i show up on this show i'm going to make sure that people see me yeah it was an investment i was like that was my life savings and I lived above a clove shop and then facing it was another clove shop and I was going in there and buying the dresses and then eventually they said you ain't got pay for them no more just do us a tweet and I was like okay so she just run across there so it did work out a good investment buying them a few dresses because then they started giving them to me what would you say was the darkest moment for you when you think back throughout your entire time on TOWIE oh there was a lot of them um I don't like talking about all the negative stuff as much because I don't I hate that woe me thing yes and I honestly when I watch other people do interviews like this or podcasts like this and they're very like I just I don't really need anyone to feel sorry for me kind of vibe you know yes but I will say it takes a certain person to last that long on a TV show like that because the dark side is the manipulation at filming, especially in them early days before rules and regulations come in.

59:13The press is really hard to read shit about yourself constantly. And as you probably know, social media, that was like just when they brought Instagram out, what a nightmare. because then these people had direct contact direct they could just dm you exactly and tell you whatever they want to tell you and like there was some really like i was getting slaughtered is the only word to describe it constantly because i was outspoken and i was involved in a lot of arguments but i'm not naturally out here arguing with anybody honestly it become a thing like you know some of the producers quite well who I am close still to this day with.

59:59Yes. And it become a bit of a joke behind the scene because it was like, well, if you get into a big scene with Chloe Sims, you've made it. And it was like an ongoing thing. And haters would say that weren't the case, but it was. Interesting. And like the top producers used to make it into a joke. Well, you've made it now. Got your big scene with Chloe Sims. And then like jokingly, it would be like, is this the minute I'm going to let my crown slip? Am I going to lose this argument? that become a huge pressure to me to the point where my mental health weren't great because I was so stressed out all the time I was branded in a certain way and I don't I'm not upset about that as the ice queen as you know I'm not an ice queen it's ridiculous right you're not I was always the ice queen on every show and like I was argumentative and I was in the drama but I don't out with people actually do the opposite you someone piss them off I just don't talk to them silence it's finished the back like it's gone you know like if you take it too far where I've fallen out of you that's it so like it's not I'm not in this argument state but that's my pigeonhole like that's everyone had to have their moment they're seen with me yes and that over a decade really really affected me to the point where I felt like I couldn't even deliver it anymore I was like really ill like because I knew it was coming that confrontational scene but I didn't know when because they didn't tell you so like I'd have sleep at night so I could feel the anxiety in my chest now because I'd go asleep thinking right well they're going to say that and then I'll have to say this and I'll be thinking of my points because I'm under pressure and then people are watching me a whole room full of people cameras and I've got a you know fire all my shots so and not forget anything because it's so painful when you watch it back and you're like I should have said that she's owned me there or he's got me over there so like that pressure really really mentally affected me I was ill I couldn't even get the words I used to shake and I remember in the scenes towards the end I'd put my hands behind my back or I'd sit like this like because I wouldn't want him to see my hands were shaking but it wasn't because I was frightened it was the anxiety it was overtaking my whole body at that point yes yes it was awful what was the fear was the fear that if you lost the argument, someone had more points than you.

1:02:21It was like a thing that I can't explain it, like a crown I was wearing, like the Queen of Towie. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And I guess it was like an ego thing, because what difference does it make whether I lose an argument really? Do you know what I mean? Why is it even important? So what if I didn't win an argument? What was I even arguing about? I don't know. I couldn't tell you. Yeah, yeah. Who's right and who's wrong. Who's right. And time when I should have been sitting, this is what I mean about the parenting thing, when I should have been playing with Maddie and baking cakes and doing fun shit, I wasn't because I was rehearsing a really unimportant argument that I was going to have on the next three days on TOWIE.

1:03:06And it doesn't matter, does it? No. Really, I should have just laughed at them because I was already at the top. I didn't really need to prove myself to anyone new that come on, you know? Yeah. Well, I'd say for me, and this is, it feels pathetic to say it, but I feel like we're crying to each other on this. Really, you're the first person I've been able to talk to about this. Is I feel as if, if I quote unquote lose one of those battles. By the way, I'm undefeated out here on these streets. I'm sure. But I feel, okay, if I lose one, then that's like an etch in my armor. Yeah. And then two or three, I no longer have value.

1:03:48But I want to just say something to you, who's someone who's like stepped out of this for a minute. Like it don't matter. And actually who decides who did and didn't win the argument? Because like say me and you were having an argument right now and I etched you, as you said. but do you that's all down to perspective because how do you know that the people really think that that's just me and you at the time would have thought that right you know because like with your poised exterior you're already in a position of like the power in that show that we're talking about you're already here you're the expert so it doesn't really matter what the person who's come on because they're there to learn from you right yes so even if they disagree with you doesn't really matter because you're the expert still you're still going to go home and be the expert and tomorrow you're still the expert and so on don't waste your time worrying about that because i think british tv does that to you yeah it is it's brutal it's one of those where sometimes i look at it and say oh my god how have i been able to survive for eight years and i mean you it's survival as well it is survival it is a very especially in that industry that i do it is all about survival it's a bit of like a dog eat dog thing although I am grateful yes extremely agreed you have to be a type of person and I discovered that with other people along the way you know like that couldn't handle it you know yeah yeah and I think my second scene was a busy sugar hut which was a nightclub back then and there was loads of extras in there and I and I wasn't famous yet because series two hadn't even gone out yet.

1:05:36We did two weeks filming and they made me walk from one end of the nightclub in front of everybody, all the cameras, all the way to the other end and make conversation with Gemma Collins. Oh, wow. And I think it might have been Kirk and his late dad, Mick. And they didn't know me, I didn't know them. And I had to walk up to them by myself. They were already talking and just get in there. Right. And I was like, what do you mean? because nowadays that's not how it works on TOWIE. They're all set up and you're sat where you're sat in. Back then it was so raw and we just started talking and that was it.

1:06:15And I remember the scene and I was shaking. It was really scary. So it was those moments again and again and again. You think that just, it was like, it was sink or swim. Yeah, it was really sink or swim. And inside I could have definitely done a run. I didn't want to do it. I was scared. I was really in. And I remember trying to control the shake in my voice and appear like I wasn't absolutely shaking inside because I was. And that happened for lots of times. There probably would have been. Yeah, there would have been times when Celebs Go Dating when they done that to me, like when they made me come down the stairs.

1:06:52Yes. Start talking to men. I was scared. And that's why I used to drink. Can we talk about celebs? Yeah. All right. So Celebs Go Dating was when we met. The year is 2018. Right. All right. This was my first series here in the UK. I thought I would be here for three months, and that was it. And look at this. Yeah. And you did Celebs. Now, when you did Celebs, I didn't think you were someone who was insecure or someone who was – un-in-charge of your identity and your brand and who you were. You seemed to be ultra-confident to me, very, very confident. And I looked around and I saw that everyone viewed you as that.

1:07:42I wasn't, though. I didn't feel like that inside. I would have had a lot of times where I would have been nervous. Well, one thing that must have helped you as well was Vass being on the show. Yeah. Vass was on there. Oh, yeah. Vass was incredible. Yeah, and Vass is, like, one of my biggest supporters. like I as I am him you know so like yeah having vast and like obviously like once I'd done a couple of days filming I connected with you as well so I started to feel good because we had Olivia as well didn't we? Olivia was on the show? Yeah so I had like people around me like where I felt fine but like yeah inside I wouldn't have been how you thought I was.

1:08:22But okay so so celebs but did you enjoy you must have enjoyed it because you came back. I loved that show I used to say I I think to Anthea, like, can't I just do this every time? I actually asked if I could be an expert on it at one point. She said, go and do a course and then maybe you can. And I didn't. And I would have loved to have been on there. I can't tell you how to get a husband, but I can tell you a lot of dating stuff. Yes. Because I have dated a lot of different types of people. I can give a lot of good dating advice, but I can't tell you how to close the deal. That's the problem.

1:08:56Ah, okay. What's your best dating advice? Don't. Don't? Yeah. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. I mean, I don't actually do. I know. I feel like I'll be good. I'll be the good agony aunt person on there. But anyway, you know, you've got all the different experts. They've got their different things. They can't do each other's jobs. Yes. Well, I feel like I'll be good at the agony aunt situation. And, you know, I can connect with anybody. Because I've been through a lot of different things. You can. So I think I'll be good at the advice here. I think I would, yeah. So industry-wise, though, right, do you think the industry would accept you in that?

1:09:36No. Well, I'm not married, so how can I be a relationship expert? Do you think – how do you think the industry views you? The industry won't let me be anything other than Chloe from TOWIE. They won't. I've got a show that I've done the concept for. I produced it as an executive producer. And series one, I basically edited that show alone. I picked every scene that went in there. And then we got it onto Netflix. When I say we, I mean me and my brother. And still, no one wants to talk about it. House of Sims. Yeah. But you got it onto Netflix. People don't want to, they do not want to mention that in this country.

1:10:22Why? It's like, I don't know. I don't know. This is why when I was saying to you, not just because of this, because there's lots of reasons why I prefer New York to London, but like I feel like this is probably going to upset a lot of viewers who are English, but I feel like the British public, they like a sob story and they like to build you up, but just not too high. just where they think you should be and then they like to tear you down or watch you fall down there's a cap and like I genuinely believe that I did peak around the time I met you here like that was I was at the top there in that part of my industry and it was like you're not going to go any further than that though it's like I feel like and it's not just the general public I feel like the industry they didn't the media just they they like me for who I am but they don't want to see me do any more than that that's how I feel so then did you were you aware of did you feel that way in this is 2018 did you feel that way no because I was like I was like I was in a good position wasn't I yes but like after that obviously I did the show again how how many times can I keep doing the same things?

1:11:37Like that whole single thing, like I wasn't really allowed to have a relationship if we're honest, because that's how I used to book shows because I was like desperately single or whatever they wanted me to be. But the truth is I don't actually feel like that. I do want to meet somebody, but I want to meet somebody who I'm like absolutely head over heels in love with. Like I want to meet my person, you know, it isn't like I need him. I don't need somebody, Paul. I've been on my own for such a long time. I've got a child. We're a little team. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So, like, yes, I would like to meet somebody, but them things I used to say on them dating shows, like, I just want to get married and da-da-da.

1:12:20I didn't really give a crap. I just wanted to get paid. That's what I wanted to do. Fair. Do you know what I mean? That's fair. Yeah, it's fair. I can't say that it's the be or end of if I do meet somebody. I would like to. I feel like I've got a bit of a fantasy with my husband being in New York. I genuinely think he's there. I feel like that's where my guy would be. He's not in London. He's definitely not in Essex. And he's not in California, unless he's visiting. Okay. He's not. But he's in New York. I feel like he's in New York. When I'm there, the men are just different there, you know? And part of that, though, you have to admit to this, is that what we do psychologically is we assign a premium to what is different.

1:13:11Right. So. Yeah. So you mean I'm putting them up higher? Exactly. Because they're different. Because quite honestly, I do the same thing when I'm in the UK. Right. You know, something that it's funny, something that I tell all of my friends. This is funny. I tell friends in New York, I was like, you've got to find a wife in the UK. Really? I was like, you've got to find a wife. Like, they're incredible in the UK. Like, they're great. And it's almost as if what I'm doing is exactly what you're doing. I am putting a premium on people in the UK because this is different to me. And also because we're both open-minded.

1:13:52If we were closed-minded, we would say, no, we're better than that. But we're open-minded, so we lean in. And we say, no, the accent, the vibe, everything we love, it's the same thing. Like I love – that's what I love about here. So that's what I think it is. But if I can ask – I have to ask you this, though, is that you just said something key. And that was that a key part or an important part of your career was you always being single. This is the key. This is what people wanted to book Chloe Sims for. Do you believe that that brand impacted the relationships that you had off screen? Maybe, maybe not, because I did have an on and off thing all along.

1:14:48so I'll be on a date with someone and then I'll be using the car texting someone or someone else so it wasn't all as it seemed but what did used to piss me off and it still pisses me off sometimes now is the perception I have to remind myself it doesn't really matter because I don't know these people when they're like oh you're still single like when I'll post on like TikTok or something they're a bit ruthless on the app and they'll write things like yeah but you're still not married on something that I'm celebrating, you know? Right. And I think, God, is that the only thing that will make me a success?

1:15:26Yes. And even like I've experienced living in Los Angeles now and I've got my own place there, I still have this thing inside of me where I've got more lives I want to live. Yeah. Like I want to try my New York life and then I want to experience that. And I also sometimes think like, how amazing would it be to like live far out, you know, like in Joshua Tree and like have my own vegetables growing and have complete peace. Like, but never in all them times does it rely on a man. I'm never thinking, oh, wait, when I get a man, I'll be able to go and live in New York. I'm thinking, actually, I might rent my place out in LA and go and rent a place in New York.

1:16:04It's too expensive to buy there, you know? Exactly. So it's like, why is my success leveled on whether I got a husband or not? Because I actually could have one. But unless I'm fully in love with that man to the point where I love every hair on his head, I'll be unhappy. You know, what you just said is gospel. Because most people who do have a husband or a wife are unhappy. Yeah. You know, 80 percent. Like the research is very clear. 80 % of people in committed relationships slash marriage are not satisfied. Yeah. So you'd rather be in a relationship and not satisfied or single and satisfied? Yeah.

1:16:48It's like, I don't know, because you're married, obviously, and you did used to advise me and tell me a little bit about marriage and stuff and that, and that you work on your marriage and stuff. But like, I know there's other people that I know are married that genuinely are unhappy, but they're like, for whatever the attached thing or financially or what people think, whatever it is. Like, I don't, luckily, thank God, I actually am not in that position. So like, I can choose to be in a relationship. And I haven't met someone good enough for me. I just haven't. He's not matching the energy, you know.

1:17:25Yes. I want to, the next guy that I even date, I'm not even dating. I don't talk to anybody. I've got no one texting me, nothing. The next person I meet, it has to be a serious thing because otherwise what's the point? You're just taking up my time. Yeah. You know? But I think what's challenging though is that you don't know if it should be serious unless you spend time getting to know them. But I'll have a good feeling in my chest. You think, Chloe. I will. You think off of just your feeling, you'll know whether or not. I'm not going to know whether he's going to be the one, but I'll know like if I've got that immediate interest and attraction to that person.

1:18:06Yes. Like I went on one date while I was in New York off the app. It was a good date. I didn't stay in touch with him. But it was like I went on the date and it was just everything about the date was a really good date. And I thought, if this is what dating in New York looks like, then I think this is a really good place to start. He was a gentleman. He wasn't flexing. He was educated, showed interest in my career and like what I do. And like, I don't know, like we just had a really good conversation. And then when it comes to the end of the day, he dropped me off in a yellow cab. I love that.

1:18:44Real gentleman. Yes. You know, nothing like people that I've dated here, doing all that showing off business. And, you know, I'm just I'm not into any of that. You're not. OK, fair, fair. One last topic. Menopause. Oh, my God. Yeah. Did you know much about menopause, perimenopause or perimenopause before? I feel like recently. Yeah. Do you feel like they've just invented perimenopause? Does that come out of nowhere? It feels, I mean, for me, I knew nothing about it until recently. Same. Yes. I didn't know perimenopause was a thing until I started having perimenopause, honestly. I didn't really know the difference and I didn't really pay much attention because, like, until you get to a certain age, why would you?

1:19:34And actually, I think I'm quite late to the party at 44 because some people can get it late 30s, early 40s. They say from 40-ish, don't they? yes so i feel like i'm actually quite late to this party um and i kind of forgotten about it you know like didn't even weren't really expecting it so when i did start experiencing symptoms was just really recently so then it overtakes your whole mind because i was like shit this is it you know and i really did panic because i had like a couple of weeks of like the hormones um and then i'd done the obvious thing which is pointless when i got all the blood tests in a panic and went on chat gpt and like put all my symptoms in and it clarified that i've got early signs of perimenopause and i actually did think shit is this my life now like the feelings i was having yes is this what my life is going to look like but luckily at the moment i can say that i'm in and out each month's not the same okay so it's not like two weeks of absolute hell every month.

1:20:37And I was going to say, what are the feelings? But also, let me just define it for everyone. So perimenopause is the transitional phase leading to menopause, where the symptoms start. And then menopause is natural permanent end of menstruation and fertility. Women in perimenopause are about 40 % more likely to experience depression compared with pre-menopausal women right so what were the symptoms that you felt and do you feel like you did feel any level of depression yeah like the symptoms were i have always had struggled with pmt anyway okay so like when it would be that time of the month leading up to that i would know um and actually funny enough luke and everyone around me used to know because i used to have to pre-warm people especially in tv because for that week i would be very like lose my temper cry overreact you know and think things way bigger than what they were and i just naturally couldn't help that so i was a bit scared of menopause because it's thinking like i'm already kind of like that i don't really need more of this um so yeah it's a scary moment it's a scary change my friend's done it before me So she's given me a lot of advice, you know, um, be some fortunate timing because like I'm thinking about finding a husband and he's probably going to think I'm completely insane.

1:22:05No. For the man's point of view, this would be for all the ladies listening who are single and going through perimenopause. Yes. From a man's point of view, obviously your situation is different because you, you've got your wife, but like, Do you not think that it might be scary and unattractive for a guy to have to put up with a woman's hormones? She can't help it. Yes. She might flip out because he's left his something on the floor or he might say the wrong thing. She might get really emotional about it, but she can't help it. Do you not think that the man's going to find that off-putting and think, I might just get with a 30-year-old and swerve this?

1:22:47Well, in matchmaking, there's something that we used to call the matchmaking rule. Right. Which was that most of our men would come into the agency. They would want a woman one half their age plus seven. So a 50-year-old man would come in and want someone who is what? 25. So 32. Okay. And that was always the magic number. Right. So that was always typically what was desired. However, over the years, what I've noticed, especially because we're living longer, we're more active, everyone is more youthful to a certain degree. Yeah. Right? That's beginning to even out a little bit. Right? Yeah. Where you have people who are looking for, or should I say men, heterosexual men looking for more men that are more women who are closer to their age.

1:23:48But always, but typically always younger. Younger, yeah. You know, on average. Yeah. And I think this is just, this is the way it's been historically. But then there are the folks that, like me, who I have always dated older women. Yeah. You know, so I think and this this goes back to me like being six years old. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because I was early in kindergarten. But there are so it's it's you know, there's so many. I think the reason why I say this is such a great time for everyone is that never before have there been more single people. That's one. Never before have there been more single people interested in a committed relationship.

1:24:32That's two. and three, never before have we been more informed about what's a healthy relationship. Yeah. Like we've never been this – like we're talking about things today that even when you and I met eight years ago, no one was talking about attachment style and no one was talking about being safe or holding space or any of those things. Yeah. But you now know these are the standards. These are the things that you need. Yeah. You know, so that's why, you know, I am excited. I do think that you should be out of the country. Yeah, I do. I need to go. I'm waiting for my visa. That's why people are like, oh, you're still here.

1:25:10I'm thinking, yeah, take it up. We've got American embassy. The visa is hard. Hey there. We have conversations just like this one every week. So if you haven't already, hit subscribe, and I'll see you for the next one. Can we spend just a moment on House of Sims for a second? because I didn't realize, so you executive produced this, created this show, right? Multiple series of the shows. Two, we did two, yeah. Two series of shows. It was meant to be four, but we ended up only doing two. Two. That's major. That is the dream, quite frankly, of almost every single person on a reality TV show. He used to be able to then go off and executive produce and star in their own show.

1:26:01Yeah. Right? I have a surprise for you. And I think that this is going to truly blow you away. So remember how I just said, well, what does the industry think of you? And you said? Ice queen. Ice queen. Yeah. And the industry specifically in the UK, what do you think? What they think of me now? Yes. I don't know. You don't know. All right. No idea. All right. I want you to. You're going to whip out down there. All right. I want you to read this. So what we did is we reached out to an industry insider here in the UK. Right. Television industry insider. And this is what they had to say about you.

1:26:52You're going to make me publicly speak. Why are you taking me back to school, Paul? Do you want me to read it to you? Yeah. I'd be more than happy to read it to you. I couldn't read that out loud. All right. But see, this is the letter, so you know. Okay. Okay. All right. So we said specifically tell us about Chloe. Mm-hmm. And this is what they wrote. Chloe Sims is one of the most underestimated, misunderstood women in this industry. She's strong, feisty, and fiercely independent. And she is one of the strongest women I've ever met and yet so incredibly vulnerable. She was the perfect reality star because of her honesty and openness and her refusal to take shh.

1:27:44I've stopped cursing. She stopped. She doesn't take any shh. You want to fill in the blank for me? It. from anyone. Always confronting. She was never afraid to call it out, even when it made life hard. She knows who she is. She stands proud. I've always admired this more than she'll ever know. My respect for her exceeds any reality star I've ever worked with. She's built a life for herself and her daughter that is only possible because of her resilience and unwavering belief that she deserves more, and she truly does. She deserves an abundance of love and care for the sacrifices she's made for those she loves.

1:28:30Chloe is fiercely loyal and a powerhouse of a woman. Always underestimated, but forever exceeding her goals. She deserves the world, and I have no doubt she will continue to go out and get it. Who wrote that letter? Aw. What are you going to tell, man? Anonymous. And it's not anyone we've mentioned, because we've mentioned a few people that we know, a few producers. Wow. That is someone. And that, by the way, is what I hear when I'm making my rounds, is just that. Did you know that? um probably not I think I probably I don't know do you believe in fate because I feel like probably I needed to hear that because I felt like I

1:29:33I feel like I took a break and I think I needed this break because I needed to come right back to I don't know like right back to my core you know and when I moved to LA I mentioned to you when I come in it was really hard time House of Sims LA LA was my dream House of Sims really knocked stuff in our me I don't know but I did start to question my career choices like my worth in this industry and like I can't really tell you the rule of everything but it's been tough you know You know, I could see that. Yeah. I could see that you have been fighting some battles. Yeah, I've been through some battles since I see you last.

1:30:24Yes, yes. Even if it has been eight years, it's been a good eight years of some battles, but without being cliche, like some real growth. And regardless, obviously, like that person and you think a lot of me, but regardless of what other people may think or think they know for me I've gone from like a kid on a council state without any money to living in Los Angeles and living out my dream and like I feel like I still got a lot more dreams that I'm gonna live but like I feel like yeah even though I don't feel like I've made it yet I don't know if that's just my personality type because when I look back and I think flipping hell, like this is mental.

1:31:10It is. Like it's really mental. And I walk around them streets that everybody posts all over the internet and I see them palm trees and I'm like, I live in LA. I live in LA. I have to keep telling myself this is my life. Yes. You know? Yes. I don't know how much longer for because it's very expensive. But I have them moments where I'm like, shit. Like I used to say it. I don't know if I said it to you, but an old clip of Towie come up and it said, I said in there, well, I'm going to move to America. I said it. It was the other day. I might have even saved it on my TikTok. And I lived there. When I met you, you said you were going to move to America.

1:31:48Did I? You did. I had no way of doing that, by the way. And I wasn't even that well off when I met you financially. So I really just didn't know how I was going to do it. And this opportunity come and I just took it with both hands without really, it was very impulsive, Paul. But, I mean, but you leaned in. You know, this is reminiscent. You leaning into that opportunity is reminiscent of what happened when your aunt passed away. Yeah. It was instinctive. You just innately knew what to do. Yeah. I'm going to move closer to home. I'm going to protect my family. I'm not going to think about it. I'm just going to do it.

1:32:32That's how I see that you've operated, right? Yeah. This is what you did with this opportunity to executive produce this show. I'm just going to lean into it. Yeah. Make it happen. And you did. Yeah. You did. Honestly, I wouldn't take that role again. I've definitely enjoyed working on some concepts recently, but I couldn't do both again. Perhaps off to all the producers I've ever worked with. that is a really difficult hard job um yeah doing both no no okay well you know your limits yeah you know your limits yeah so so then on that show you have family yeah on that show um and your brother charlie charlie uh is is i know is is a bestie of yours he's my bestie yeah yeah and just because I want to keep gifting you.

1:33:31Yeah. Gifting. You're not going to keep making me cry, are you? No. Okay. No. But I like this Chloe, though. I mean, I like the other Chloe, too. What, the ISD one? No. I like this one better. I like this one better. If I can, I'm going to read this. Okay. This is from your brother, Charlie. Oh, God. I'm going to cry. I love this one.

1:33:59Chloe, where do I begin? A mother, a sister, a best friend, and a star. There have been tough times, and there have been beautiful times, moments that felt too good to be true, and moments so low you wondered if they'd ever end. And through it all, I've watched you surf the waves of life with strength and grace, all while being unapologetically you. You were on the journey of a lifetime. And during that journey, I've had the privilege of sharing some of the best memories of my life with you. Together, we've taken on whatever the world threw at us. We crossed the Atlantic, chasing the so-called American dream.

1:34:46And yeah, at times, it was a hard dream to crack. But we survived the hardest parts together. I needed you then, and I still do now. For me, you opened your heart and welcomed my soulmate Georgia as your own, and she loves you like a sister right back. And Madison, well, she's a carbon copy of you. She has your hilarious humor, your good vibes energy, and she'll always be the best company in the room, with the exception that she definitely inherited a sprinkle of your sass too. But that was inevitable. As your brother, I couldn't be prouder of the woman you are and the life you're building. And if you won't say it because you're being humble for the podcast, I'll say it for you.

1:35:37You won in life, sister. Finally, always remember what we say. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Yeah, that's he's saying what he says. Love you always. Charlie. No. I knew that one was going to upset me. Charlie's my absolute ride or die. Yeah. I can see it. Yeah. Yeah. What do you love so much about him? Well, he's my little brother, but I don't know. Like, obviously, I loved him. He was my brother, but he become, I don't know, he just become, like, my biggest supporter, like, my confident, I can tell him anything. He knows everything. I could tell him everything. He's the least judgmental person that you're ever going to know.

1:36:30And like, I can just trust him, you know, like he's just a solid, honest. Yes. Like really, really genuine person. Having someone in your life that you can trust 100 % is like really unusual. I haven't got many people like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's everything. It really is. Yeah. It's everything. It's almost like you can equate the quality of your life to the people you can trust. I always think, and I don't know about you, but I measure trust, like real, real trust on who I would leave my child with. Yes, yes. And if I wouldn't, then I don't fully trust you. There you go. Can we talk about motherhood then?

1:37:15Yeah, of course. All right. Because I can attest to what you just said in terms of how Maddie was always with you. Yeah. But yet you didn't publicize her. And I think that's something that the public probably doesn't fully know about you. There's probably this thought of she had Maddie tucked away somewhere while you lived this other life over here. That's what the feedback was always. Like, imagine getting that twice a week, being told that, you're a shit mom, where's your daughter? Like, even up until recently, I'd still get it. People would be like, but where's your kid? She's 20, 21 in a couple of months.

1:38:02But, like, they obviously don't see her, so they don't know. They still think she's little. Right. I don't know. Like, I told you that when I first got TOWIE, I was very nervous about Maddie. and what this meant for her, you know, because she's innocent. She didn't sign up to any of this. And at first I let her do a little bit of filming and it weren't working out. For example, I'm sure you know how you do a scene. Sometimes it will be filmed at day to night. Yes. And there was one particular scene which we filmed. It was on Towie. It's super cute, but she was totally distressed because we were telling her it was bedtime, but it weren't really bedtime and she hates bedtime.

1:38:42she also hates going to bed by herself so we're trying to get her to sit in the bed the camera crew are in the bedroom all the lights and I've got this little tiny Maddie looking at me hysterical I don't want to go to bed I don't want to go to bed and I'm going but we're not really going to bed how do you explain that to a five-year-old right and I'm getting frustrated because I'm like embarrassed because she won't listen you know like and I just thought no this ain't this ain't really going to work out and I think we did one more scene with her and it was outside and they kept her outside a little bit longer than I really was comfortable with you know like she was getting cold yes and I thought no this is this is not for her she hasn't made this decision until she's 16 and she can make this choice whether she wants to be on tv I'm not gonna do this um she might have been in the background of things here and there but that was it then and then when she did turned 16 she did come on the show and do some filming and then she decided she didn't like it and that's interesting so then she removed herself she told you and then yeah but i think it was only because again of social media and the media because they were like saying things about her negatively yes and i think that had she'd had a more of a positive welcoming that she because she did like it and she enjoyed the filming part of it so it's to be continued we'll see okay yeah fair enough how do you deal as a mother with receiving or seeing negative messaging about your daughter oh that is like gloves off yeah you know being associated with itv i had to be very careful what I did and said on social media even more so now because you can get like arrested for stuff but the gloves are off you better hope to high heavens I'd never come face to face or find out who you are because that's like no I've been known to dm people privately oh well yeah that pun from my child yeah yeah I could see it I could see it so so then um motherhood has obviously changed you right yeah it changes everyone fatherhood has changed me what do you think is your biggest lesson so far from you know from from being a mom you know so for example for me i could tell you i've learned i don't know half of what i thought i knew you know every day they're teaching you know my boys are teaching me something every day is is like a school day yeah you know i feel like the main thing to remember ever is that they grow up they grow up and one day they're going to be an adult so just watch how you you behave and how you treat them do you know what i mean that little person's going to grow up one day i'm not necessarily talking about madison talk about myself as well do you know what I mean yes like they grow up so and it's quick like you take your eye off them for a minute and they're an adult so I think that's probably all I've got to say I'm not going to sit here and start giving up parenting advice I now because you've unpacked the story yeah you talked about these insecurities that you had early on yeah and it was interesting because even when you talked about going to the school in Essex.

1:42:08Yeah. The first thing that you did to describe the more popular girls is you said that they had a body. Like a full figure, yeah. A full figure, right, because you said almost, and that attracted the boys' attention. Yeah. What was, how old were you when you had your first procedure? I was, I think I was 26. 26 okay yeah and i had my boobs um and that was like the fashion back then was well i say the fashion not the fashion the trend the look was like all boobs nothing else skinny boobs that that was like the kind of thing that's what the glamour models looked at the time and whatever so yeah i really wanted to have a big chest i was obsessed with that and i thought that was going to change all my dreams you know yes and then and then I did that and then when I went on to TOWIE I got offered every surgery in the world like I could have had anything I wanted for free so then I wanted to go even bigger and as luck would have it someone must have been looking down on me they couldn't fit them in oh really no they couldn't so you're talking about actually in the in the I said I want to dig and fake yeah because that was my mentality then and um and they said we'll try and then when I woke up there's like we're really sorry they just they wouldn't fit so we have to give you the whatever size and I was like oh I was a bit disappointed but I've still got the same ones in now that they actually did manage to squeeze in but these I've wanted out for about five years I just can't be bothered to go and have a major surgery for no reason really do you know what I mean I'd rather wait until I need to take them out but it's been something that I really would love to take them out I don't want them anymore they're it's not a good look you know and I do tend to hide them most of the time like I don't really wear things like that these days and I don't feel I don't know like I don't feel ashamed of them but like when I go out it isn't the look that I want to portray when I see the photos I don't think oh I look really great there do you know I mean I think oh my boobs look too big that's how I feel now okay and it's so funny how isn't that interesting because I would never have dreamed that I would say that but yeah if if it wasn't the fact that it's such a big operation you have to get put asleep then you're like really in pain and you have to recover like I just don't there's a risk there's a risk to it yeah there's a risk with everything yes um and it is a big operation to have so that's why i haven't gone ahead with it but i would really like to have my old boobs back or something a lot more natural and smaller look at that look at that i would imagine it stemmed from feeling insecure yes to what i decided i thought everyone was looking how i thought everyone looked good which at the time glamour models were really quite a big deal here like now it would be a frowned upon thing but back then the likes of Katie Price and like Lucy Pinder and these women I'll be going to the clubs in London they were treated as celebrities and that was the look you know so like I aspired to the wrong not digging them out in no way shape or form because I think look how you want to look but had I've had a little bit more guidance I don't know like obviously I wish I wouldn't have done all that but I did and that was how I wanted to look and that's what I was doing and no one could stop me all right fair fair now are you done no procedures you're not done well look if I had a magic wand these would be out to be honest with you um I definitely wouldn't do any crazy things but I am 44 years old and I do believe that when it comes to aging you should probably do the things before they need to be done okay like I I don't want to wait until my face is down here and then be like, oh, well, let me get a facelift.

1:46:17Like I'm going to do it this year. A facelift? Yeah. It sounds scarier than what it is. It's like I'm getting it down in Beverly Hills. Okay. You can't get better than that. Okay. And it's a deep, plain facelift. So they basically, I won't have any scars like visible. It's not like a traditional pulling your face back. They go in and they basically pull the muscles up. I feel, in my opinion, I feel like if I'm going to do it, I should do it before I actually really need it, you know, and then extend that. That window. Yeah. That window. Yeah. I'm not, I'm definitely not ready for the, I'm not ready to age.

1:46:56No. I don't know if I'm going to like that, Paul. No. Men, you, you guys just get more like, you get rugged, which is a positive. Gotcha. Like people like older men. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's not really people that say they like old women. Like, women, men, it's character. It's manly. It's masculine. Like, I necessarily wouldn't, I wouldn't find a man attractive if he wanted to get a facelift. That would be an ick. No. Oh, really? Yeah, I wouldn't date somebody who's, like, said that back to me and go, yeah, I know what you mean. I'll pick one. I'll be like, get out. But, you know, this is a double standard then.

1:47:33I know, double standards. I know. That's what I mean. The list is long. I told you. It needs to be about my looks. Let's not worry about yours. Okay. All right. Final question. Out of all of the incredible conversations you've had throughout your life, which one is the most memorable? So who was it with and what did you learn? Oh, bloody hell, Paul. I think it might be what I told you earlier with that therapist, what he said to me. and he said that the love you expect from that person you're getting it from someone else and the same with Maddie like the love that I think she should have all from me she still got it but she got it from the other person that stuck with me forever um and then I don't know like probably I mean I've had like a lot of conversations with like my loved ones obviously and like little things that have been said along the way.

1:48:34I don't know. Like I'm not sure what to bring up and what not to bring up, you know, like it's a bit like that. But, yeah, I don't know because you put me on the spot. When I get home, I'll probably be like, oh, I should have said that. And if I do, I text you. All right. We'll put it in the show notes. How about that? If I do come up, I'll think about this now. It's going to really plow my mind all the way back to Essex. I'll be thinking, what should I have said there? Because obviously I'm 44. I've had a lot of chats. You have. I was looking forward to this. I very much enjoyed it. Yeah, me too.

1:49:06And I'm going to end the same way I started. Yeah. Is how appreciative I am of you. You are someone of your word. You are an incredible hard worker. You're ambitious. And most importantly is you are kind. Thanks, Paul. You know, and that to me is everything. Well, I really appreciate everything you said. And it's really nice that you see me that way, honestly, because obviously I really respect you. And yeah, it's nice to hear that from someone like you because I can take it in and take it home with me. And then when I'm having my cup of tea later, I'll be like, oh, happy with myself right now.

1:49:48I'm a bit embarrassed. but later I'll be like oh like yeah yeah thanks for all you know yes um so yeah that's really nice of you to say that thank you and thanks for having me it was our honor okay Chloe Sims when we started the podcast I sent her a message and I asked her if she could come on and I thought she was going to say, yes! And she said, maybe, but just not right now. And what I realized in this conversation with her today is that she was going through a lot, a lot in her life and she just wasn't ready emotionally, psychologically, but she was definitely ready today. I could empathize and sympathize when she said, those moments that I should have been spending time with Maddie, instead I was off in this corner practicing my lines, if you will, so that I can win the argument.

1:50:53That is often me. That time that I could be doing something with the boys or doing something with Jill, I'm off in a room, I think over-preparing for a scene that I know is going to be confrontational. And this conversation made me reflect on why. I'm really happy for her that she's found the self-worth and she's realized over the last year that she deserves better. We definitely need a part two. There are major chunks of her life that we didn't get into in detail. I had no idea that she was... she didn't consider herself confident until eight years ago when I met her. You know, it's... there are many...

1:51:48mind-blowing moments for me in this conversation. I found a lump in my boob. This doctor scanned me straight away. He was like, okay, the lump is nothing to worry about, but that implant's ruptured. Implants can leak. You need to get them out. I was filming Towie. They're like, there's this new guy coming on, Tommy Mallet, and I was like, he stalks me. I'll never forget, I rang the producer, I was like, I'm not filming that guy, he's so annoying. Three days in, we're together. But I had the expectation that it wasn't going to last. It's how we had this weird hierarchy, like, if you're in a couple, you're safer.

1:52:20It was very cutthroat back then. The cast were hungry, you know? They would want to break you up. So I was like, all right, okay, fine. I'll play this game. What was the hardest moment for you? Everybody said to me, when you have this baby, it's this instant mother's connection. So when it didn't happen to me, I was ashamed. I thought, how am I not happy? How can I not be happy about a newborn baby? That's terrible. It was a dark place, to be honest. It only got better when Tommy said, she's not right, by the way, in front of my mum, his mum and the midwife. If you could go back, what would you have told yourself?

1:52:55I try to believe things do happen for a reason, because at the time you're like, what reason is this? this is terrible even in my darkest deepest moments i can now say it's made me me now yes and i'm finally getting a bit of peace georgia there's one last thing we need to talk about