Cody Simpson: I Became Famous at 13… I Had No Idea What It Would Cost

10:03Cody Simpson:So I asked for guitar lessons for my birthday or something like that. And that's kind of when it started for me.

10:12Paul C. Brunson:Was it instant? Was it one of those where the guitar was in hand and you knew there was something magic?

10:17Cody Simpson:Yeah, absolutely. Because I was very creative young and the minute I learned how to play chords, two chords three chords I was writing songs like I didn't sort of wait for to get you know to a certain level or you know yes become become of a certain skill I was kind of creating with it from from a very limited skill set early um and so it was very natural just to strum and sing and play and stuff like that and and I also had you know I had examples of it around me that I would emulate and then make my own and that kind of stuff. And it wasn't long until I was joining in on the sing-alongs.

11:05Paul C. Brunson:On the sing-alongs, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then did you become then at the... Did you go to the forefront? Were you then the star? Did you take the stage from your father?

11:14Cody Simpson:Yeah, by about 10 or 11, I... He'll laugh when I say, by about 10 or 11, I think I was better than my dad. And he'll tell you this as well. and and I started you know doing my own solos and doing my own thing all right yeah so then by

11:31Paul C. Brunson:say 11 you know are you thinking okay this is a career for me or this is just a nice thing to do

11:40Cody Simpson:my memory of this is a little blurred I don't have I don't know if I was it's also so young it's hard to know where my mind was at the time I certainly remember wanting to perform for people like I would do the school talent shows or the school like the school um graduation night I'd get up and do a song and I had I had a little band I formed this little trio in middle school um with a another friend who played bass and then a drummer and we're all like 10 or 11 and okay we're awful but like we get up at the school you know assemblies and do a song and the music teacher would let us use the music room at lunchtime to play and rehearse and stuff like that.

12:27Cody Simpson:And so I remember from then wanting to perform live and share it. And that's around the time I started. I saw that people were posting themselves on YouTube. Okay. And sharing their, like I just discovered social media and like MySpace. myspace i got discovered my mys we had a myspace page and i saw that people were posting recordings of themselves on like myspace music and and that people were doing videos on youtube and i thought that's fun like i wanted you know it just felt fresh and i wanted to do it okay um so i made my mom film me and and upload it i think the first one we posted was actually a video of me singing at one of the school shows um and then it went from there in which i'd asked my mom to film in my bedroom doing covers and

13:26Paul C. Brunson:singing and all that kind of stuff okay so with you asking your mother to do that what was the goal like was it just i don't know i think it was i just i i don't know why i felt compelled to share it I don't know why yeah I don't know why I felt like I had to I certainly felt like it was

13:48Cody Simpson:something I wanted to make a career of and this is going to sound silly and maybe a bit cocky or something but I remember my my grandmother reminded me of this a year or two ago was I guess I told her when i was 10 or 11 that i was going to be famous at something i just didn't know what yet i don't like it so i just had this like desire to share and i was like i'm gonna i'm gonna be

14:19Paul C. Brunson:really well i just don't know what it is yet and all this stuff um can i say something on that this is uh this now you saying that i think about so we've had i don't know even 10 you're 10 or 11 right so we've had 60 plus guests on we need to talk yeah uh i think everyone almost everyone has been a public figure yeah uh some very big musicians yeah uh do you know that almost every single one has said that exactly statement that at a young age they don't know what it was what the inspiration was but they knew they were going to be not just on stage but famous yeah yeah that's very interesting yeah i mean it's hitting me for the first time like thinking about

15:09Cody Simpson:the and it sounds i don't like to say that because it sounds superficial or like i don't you know what i mean it doesn't sound like a like not not humble it doesn't have humble yeah and it's also like what is that famous like what you know what i mean but i think it's just a desire to share and and and i don't know i i've i think i was just always an entertainer since i was a kid and i was just like i just want to be you know and i just had this this intuition that i was going to

15:41Paul C. Brunson:be well known so so at 13 then what happens because this when i look at your life like yeah this is a major inflection point right at that age yeah this was a real shift now so like i

15:55Cody Simpson:I had been putting up these videos and songs online and then a music producer messages on MySpace and he's like, I think you're really talented and I'd love to cut some demos. I live in the US, I live in New York and I want to fly you over here and I think we could get some, if these demos go well, I think we could get some meetings at labels. I've got some connections. Well, and so I'm like, oh my God. You know what I mean? This was kind of the, this was kind of like the, almost like the democratization of like young stars, like, and, and separating from, from the Disney and Nickelodeon machines and stuff.

16:38Cody Simpson:because that was like the those were the sole outlets for young artists and actors and stuff to be given platforms was through these uh tv channels right yes it's always very hard brothers in the you know Miley Cyrus and Selena all you know and and then all of a sudden you had YouTube and Justin Bieber being discovered on YouTube and me seeing that going oh like that can happen from what I'm doing uh okay um I should keep putting up these videos and maybe you know maybe like I'll be discovered as well kind of thing gotcha um and you were and then like two months later I was like messaged by this guy and I was going oh my god this is like this is it you know and my mom my mom immediately was like it's a platform we're not we're not responding you know like what you know maybe she she wouldn't let me respond which i now know why she was afraid it was you know an internet predator or something because i was just this 13 year old you know blonde swishy hair kid you know um and during those few months the video started to gain more and more traction and other people started reaching out and we had Atlantic Records and Epic Records and like a bunch of people started to be like interested in this and so we ended up my dad and I ended up flying to New York this would have been the start of 2009 and I wrote and cut four songs with this producer and then we we went and took meetings in Manhattan and I remember it vividly because it was my 13th birthday and I was sitting in I spent the whole day on my 13th birthday in the Warner Music Building in Manhattan taking meeting after meeting going from like the junior A &R to ending up in the CEO's office by the end of the day singing for him um

18:56Cody Simpson:and that was just a trip you know and that's that's that's how it happened like I basically went home from then went back to school for another six months we got like two record deal offer major record level offers my parents are like what do we do like having to find a an entertainment attorney to like make any sense of what this was right um and so there was a bunch of back and forth you know and i was just back at school while this was all happening and then like six months later the dealer sign and they're basically like we'll petition your green card but you have to move to la and if you want to do this full time and we're all kind of that was like the

19:41Paul C. Brunson:crossroads and you're saying we because it wasn't just you move into the US no

19:45Cody Simpson:it would be but your entire family yeah because I had to I was just too young to be able yeah to do it alone and so and you siblings yeah I have I had a younger sister it was a year and a half younger than I am and then we had a little brother who's who was seven at the time so we they collectively decided we'd all go together. That's amazing.

20:13Paul C. Brunson:I think it's such a big decision because also it's a record deal so there's no promise of anything really. I would imagine from a money standpoint it's not significant. I don't know maybe I'm wrong.

20:28Cody Simpson:No but I think it was certainly more than my parents had ever seen in one go. Oh really okay so it was big. Yeah it was big. Okay. It was like a major, at the time they used to do these things called 360 deals, which aren't great. I'm kind of still in it in some ways. They still own a lot of my early catalog and all that stuff. But it's like they took a cut of everything.

20:59Paul C. Brunson:Yes.

20:59Cody Simpson:Could you even explain that? Because I think a lot of folks are like, 360 deals? Yeah. I'll explain it. So early, as I understand it, prior to this, when pure record sales were much more of a lucrative thing for labels, and when it was a much more lucrative business for record labels, they would, you would sign to a label, an artist would sign to a label, and the record label would only take a percentage of the record sales alone. and everything else was yours, touring, merchandise, ice. Everything else aside from the actual pure sale of the CD was yours. And then once the birth of the internet came and pirating and all that stuff, CD sales and record sales alone started to decline a lot and so labels had to find other ways to generate revenue from the artist.

21:56Cody Simpson:And so as often as they could, would sign you to these 360 deals in which they took a cut of anything to do with your likeness, right? Which for a lot of artists, it's like you don't really have a choice if they're going to give you this massive cash advance. And if it's kind of like that or nothing, you know, a lot of people are going to take that. And I think at the time we just didn't know any different. And I was like, okay, this is just how it goes. I now understand it's not always that way. But I think for them taking the risk on this 13-year-old kid from Australia, it was kind of like it made the most sense for them and everyone involved.

22:38Paul C. Brunson:Yes. And even on the business side, something I'm curious about too is on the cash advance, do you have to then pay that back? Yeah. You have to pay it back. Yeah. So it's like they're loaning you money. I just finished paying it back. Are you serious? Yeah.

22:54Cody Simpson:crazy 15 years 15 years yeah man um which is wild it's wild yeah that's wild because it was not only that it was then like they then put up a ton of other money for like and i was like oh yeah hell yeah 200 grand on music video you know this that like oh i get to go and record in this studio for two weeks i didn't realize it was you know whatever amount per day to be there and i was gonna have to pay that back from you know right i'm just i'm just kind of thinking oh and they they yeah they they put up for like they they did a lot for me and earlier like they paid for my tutoring my homeschooling like they paid for all these things that i think they actually legally had to do as a minor as my like petitioner okay for my green card or visa or whatever but but i was under no impression that i had to pay it back sent you know yeah but percent you know

23:50Paul C. Brunson:So you moved to LA.

23:51Cody Simpson:Yeah.

23:52Paul C. Brunson:It's a new country. LA by itself is a country.

23:57Cody Simpson:LA, yeah. It's a wild place.

23:58Paul C. Brunson:Yeah. But I would imagine, because you just signed this deal, lots of money, you are put to work.

24:05Cody Simpson:Yeah, yeah. I know. I was, yeah, man. I was like, I was doing like 3 a.m. nights in the studio at like 14. Jeez. which sounds doesn't sound right now but at that time i loved it you know did you yeah because i was like i was just like the world opened up and i was like you know i'd gone from going to bed at eight o 'clock to get up at five for you know swim training and stuff to all of a sudden like living in hollywood and being in the studio till 3 a.m with all these you know adults and you know i'm I was just living my dream. Your dream. What is it? You know, Mars is across the hall. Oh, really?

24:48Cody Simpson:You know what I mean? Like, it was like really, I was like, I'm doing this, you know? Yes. And it all happened within a year of, you know, or two years of like putting up that first video on YouTube.

25:01Paul C. Brunson:But now, Cody, I would imagine though, do you stop swimming?

25:06Cody Simpson:Well, yeah. When we first moved over, we just, I don't think any of us knew like, how intense it would be or how busy it would be or like how much they'd be put me to work we were like going to find training squads for me to be able to continue continue working and and I remember going and doing on my first recording trip I remember I really wanted to go and try and meet Michael Phelps and Baltimore was like a four-hour drive from new york so we drove my dad and i like ran in a car and drove to baltimore met with michael phelps's coach who was friends with my coach in australia at the time and he organized for me to meet michael there and i did i did like two days of swim sessions with his junior squad so it was very much still in my you know in my head and consciousness was was swimming and continuing to swim because it was just so ingrained in me wow um it's funny i now i now michael is now a friend of mine um but i have this picture of when i was he'd just finished his like he was at the peak of his career he just come off beijing you know when he won the eight golds and um i was this 12 13 year old kid i made him sign like 25 swim cats and i took them all back to to australia and gave them gave them out to the whole squad and everyone was just like what is going on yeah but um but uh yeah when we first moved to la i was like jumping in with different groups like trying things like thinking i'd be able to keep this up and after a couple months it was like very evident that it wasn't that it wasn't happening

26:50Paul C. Brunson:and how did then yeah they started putting me on the road like oh really really yeah yeah so when you reflect back though so you're what now what 14 maybe I'm uh yeah 14 now 14 at 14 then what was a week like for you um it changed a lot that's the thing like back back at home it was so

27:15Cody Simpson:regimented I knew exactly what a week was it was school and swimming training and now it was like always changing I mean we'd do these recording blocks and then I'd be out on the road and we'd We'd do, there was a lot of travel. You know, we did like these shopping mall tours where I'd go and perform at these shopping malls. We'd do like radio station tours where we'd be going to two or three cities in a day in like a van with like the radio rep from the record label and my dad and my manager. And I'd be, we'd be hitting three cities, you know, on the East Coast or in the Midwest, like in a day.

27:53Cody Simpson:And we'd do that for weeks on end. staying in motels and like it was like a lot yeah yeah and that was like 14 15 was like doing that

28:02Paul C. Brunson:was non-stop oh yeah and your dad is with you he's the main family my dad yeah with you when we did

28:08Cody Simpson:we did when we toured um the whole family would come like when we had the bus and everything but like for these like smaller these leaner trips like and promo tours and stuff like that um it'd be my dad but i'd always have mom or dad with me oh just always thank god yes yes yeah and then you

28:30Paul C. Brunson:had a did you have a teacher with you too and a tutor yeah and tutor yeah okay yep um this was

28:37Cody Simpson:homeschooled on the road like man i'd be in the back of the tour bus like doing my math homework about to go out and perform in this shopping mall for thousands of screaming girls it was wild very well what am i doing this i got you know what i mean they're banging on the side of the thing i'm trying to do long division you know i swear to god it was literally like that ridiculous

29:03Paul C. Brunson:all right so i've got to show you this there's so many things i have to show you man yeah but i want to show you this okay how old are you and do you remember this one what's happening there

29:13Cody Simpson:in that photo um i think i like i was 13 i think i'd just gotten signed this is like right around the time we were moving to the U.S. Ah, okay. We were about to move to the U.S. And this was crazy that I remember this. I think this was a photo shoot for like an Australian newspaper or magazine that was like doing a story on it. About you going to the U.S.?

29:43Paul C. Brunson:Okay. So then as you're gaining popularity in the States, what's happening back home in Australia? more more kids wanted to be my friend as you all of a sudden i'm really popular at school

29:59Cody Simpson:i remember doing this like farewell thing when i was leaving when i was like when we were finally moving for good um and like kids were running after my car and my like little girlfriend that i had to break up with at the time was like crying running after the car as we were driving out of the school parking lot like one of my first music videos i came back and i probably just finished paying this back too but the wanna shut down like my local water park for me to shoot the music video like they flipped it out for the day huge water like one of the bigger water parks in australia like it was like 30 minutes from my house or something and um so i had all my friends and school friends and family friends come and be in this like music video and so basically we all got to i got to bring like 20 kids to this theme park or water park for the day and we got to just ride the rise and stuff like that yes um and they just filmed it and that was like one of my music videos or something but i think my friends were just like what is going on yeah six months ago he's at school now like he's

31:07Paul C. Brunson:able to shut down this like water park yes and i know you're probably going to be humble on this one but it wasn't just you couldn't go out in the states or in australia it was a global thing

31:20Cody Simpson:it was yeah yeah yeah it was a global thing which is which is rare like i didn't realize then how the power of the internet in that way of going oh well i can i'm going to to japan and there's thousands of girls at the airport waiting for us to land or to Europe and you know to Scandinavia and there's you know I'm doing so just how global you know South America like it was not just where I was from or the US it was certainly widespread.

31:59Paul C. Brunson:What was it because you also there were a lot of people trying to compete trying to be in that position but you were you were really resonating so what do you think it was?

32:09Cody Simpson:It's a really good question i don't know it was like a right place right time thing in a way you know right after bieber and and and that whole insane you know thing in which like i guess i i met him really early on and we became friends and i signed with scooter and like i was in that whole world um um so part of it was i guess just having the and the and the label just having the ability to

32:41Paul C. Brunson:market it the way they did they did yeah and do you really attribute it to uh to like justin bieber as the like the catalyst for this new wave i don't think i would have i don't think i would

32:53Cody Simpson:have uh achieved what i did or or or for it to work the way it did without him um

33:05Cody Simpson:it's hard to say honestly I don't know because because there were other young you know there were other young artists that were that were really popular a couple years you know there were the Jonas Brothers and there were these other people but that was that was all part of the Disney thing so it's hard to say I just know that he came before me on YouTube and it worked and then And so I think, I don't know if labels would have taken a shot on me if they hadn't seen that that had worked. Interesting.

33:33Paul C. Brunson:You know what I mean? Okay. You just mentioned Scooter Braun as well. Yeah. What do you think his magic was, especially at that time? Because it did seem like he was a goal, like he had the Midas touch for sure.

33:51I don't know.

33:52Cody Simpson:I think he he was just and he he still is he's just extremely um he's extreme he's extremely uh clever and how he and creative and how he markets things I think he's he's really quick to act like if he believes in something he's just like I think successful people in general just close the gap between like idea and execution I think he just like saw something that he thought could could work and he's just very quick to to act on it and he's a he's a he's a you know people person and that he connects he knows how to connect people and I think it was he's just savvy in that way how he went about sort of marketing me alongside the label like not wanting to be the same thing as as Justin and how I sort of was different from that you know because he had just and it was how you know wanting it to be and feel different you know i think i was um i think they really like leaned into the whole like australian like beach you know thing i was like very much a young like surfy kid with a guitar and yeah you know on that i've another photo you know what i mean i have another photo look and that may have been part of what resonated with people from different cultures and stuff that you know didn't have that in their life and And so I was kind of this like, you know, I made this like kind of music that was some kind of escape to Australia or, you know, just like a lifestyle thing.

35:30Cody Simpson:You know, maybe that's part of it. I'm still trying to understand it. I don't know. You know what? I could see that. That's interesting. I'm just thinking for a girl in Japan who, like, I don't know, you know what I mean? To kind of go, this is an insight into a different kind of lifestyle and vibe that I wasn't exposed to.

35:49Paul C. Brunson:it was hilarious yeah um even on that though there was so many of these ones yeah that's the post yeah but even before we get get into that photo is you just saying this is so i'm now connecting this is um so uh was it the first single uh with flow rider yeah yeah you're at a

36:10Cody Simpson:beach yeah yeah yeah which we shot we shot that um we actually shot part of that in australia and about in LA but yeah it was very much like at a beach and they'd sell like there was there were the merch was they were selling like surfboard necklaces with like my name on it and it was like very that was very much part of the the branding when I was a kid I see and and so the music videos I think that that was just like it I think it was just an obvious it was it was not manufactured that's actually the life i lived growing up and who i was you know i think they just like saw that as a point of difference or a a way to kind of differentiate me from other things yeah and um it was like lent into i see it you know i mean i see it one of my early albums i have the my first album cover i'm on the beach with the guitar behind my back you know and the waves coming over me my second one i'm holding a surfboard like it was very it was very uh It was very much that.

37:13Cody Simpson:Yeah.

37:14Paul C. Brunson:What's happening in that photo? I have no idea. You're posing though.

37:20Cody Simpson:That's what you're doing. I'm learning how to smize is what I'm doing. You know? Doing the... This... That's so funny. For these... These are like shows the old... These don't exist anymore like the J14s and the pop star mags and all that stuff. Dope. But that was the key. i would have been mags between mags so yeah like that was i think when i started like these were massive things these these tween mags and you know so every time we go anywhere you know because they used to put the posters in them and stuff and people would put them on their walls that's right so they usually put like four or five faces on the cover in like like a circle and so as like a young child singer or actor or something like the goal was kind of like to become one of the like five faces on the cover of this of these magazines okay like you'd kind of made it if you were like one of these like j14 floating heads on these you know and so i think once i started to get my face on those things i was like really doing something here i made it just hilarious that that was that was my mark of success was becoming one of these like floating heads on these like pop star magazines oh my gosh yeah and then you know you'd do the meet and greets or the cd signings and the other girls would bring the the magazines and the posters for you to sign the cover and all that stuff but yeah i knew i made it when i was would you when i was a yeah a j14 cover boy all right fair well i'm gonna take this i'm gonna try so funny man I have another surprise for you okay this one is gonna be wild okay so you're

39:08Paul C. Brunson:ready yeah yeah yeah ready for this lady all right so first is do you know what this is oh absolutely I have one of these all right what is that what is

39:19Cody Simpson:that I used to listen to my first singles on these I poured something I put mini yeah I think that was like mini the mini no the mini was like the

39:30Paul C. Brunson:rectangular one yeah i have i have this for you as well oh wow all right okay and so i want you to plug that in uh-huh and i want you to listen to what is loaded on this oh my god okay okay now sit back listen yeah tell us what it is uh-huh just tell me what what's what's your reflection

39:56Cody Simpson:on that okay let's go the first album paradise paradise okay let's see beach sounds straight away see oh my gosh uh so you're listening to what song it's called paradise to paradise first song on my first full length album alright voices higher it's so funny like for years until I reckon till probably last year

40:37Cody Simpson:that's harmonies so I'm just gonna pause it for a second okay for for years and I think everyone has their own version of this but I was like, I would cringe at early stuff of mine or hearing my voice, my younger voice or hearing a song. And I was almost like embarrassed or wanted to run away from it. And I think I went through this period of extreme rebellion from my early career. and now and last year was I think the first year I really started to feel and I think it's maybe just because I'm old enough and not not far enough removed from it but having a perspective to understand how special it was yes and to not um I'm not in the least bit I'm finally in a place in my life where I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by it I'm like really proud of it i'm going how was i 15 like vocal like i learned really quickly how to like vocal produce myself and arrange harmonies and do all these things that like are skills i am using now like working on my new album but i learned them so young and i'm realizing why they're second nature to me now it's because like i was in there till 3 a.m every night at 14 do it like learning from the best you know in the world yes and i'm hearing and i hear the stuff now and i go that's really awesome how I was doing that at that age I love that reflection you know and being able to go into a studio and know exactly how to get something to sound a certain way okay and especially pop pop music and I have so much respect for certain artists and and Biba was really good at this and I would sit and watch him do it and and learn from him and then and and certain artists that knew how to um and you learn how to to arrange vocals and pan them and and do the harmonies in a way that you feel effective for and and the best like recording artists are really good at that yes um i'd say what let's do uh Another song.

43:04Cody Simpson:Uh-huh. I'm going to go. This is called Good As It Gets. This is like, I rediscovered this a couple months ago, actually. This was me like in my kind of R &B bag a little bit. I can tell by the nod, yeah. I was like 14 in this. This song was produced by a guy named Danger Hands, who did a lot of the Future Sex Love Sounds album with Timbaland for Timberlake. Okay. And he gave me this song. and you can tell I'm really working hard to like do it justice. I'm going to pause it out. That's really cool. I appreciate the nostalgia there. That was awesome. Yeah.

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46:36Paul C. Brunson:When you want your spring break to feel like... And your kid's pool day to feel like... And your hotel bed to feel like... Ooh, and room service to feel like. Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like. Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels? It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for this day. You know, one piece of your life that I just want to touch on. Yeah. Your relationships. Right. But I want to go through some of these relationships, but mainly look at where you were in your career. Sure. And what was the lesson that you pulled from that relationship? Yeah, yeah, totally.

47:28Paul C. Brunson:So would you say first, was first at 14, you have now just moved to LA. Was your first girlfriend Kylie Jenner? Help me understand, you've just moved to LA. How do you and Kylie Jenner enter a relationship? The Twilight 3 premiere.

48:01Cody Simpson:As I remember it, yeah. That's really funny.

48:09Cody Simpson:um kylie kylie and i met i was i was probably 15 okay she may have been 14 or 15 she's a tiny bit younger than i am but i think her and kendall were like interviewing people on the red they'd like just started doing stuff you know because their sisters were super successful and they'd like just start they'd just started doing stuff in the public eye with the they had the show going on and they were they'd started to be on the show and all that stuff like that and they were I think interviewing people on the Twilight premiere red carpet or something and I went to I went I took my sister or something to the to the to the premiere because she loved Twilight or I think um I think I asked her for a number there or something like we exchanged numbers and we started talking and um I don't know it was young yeah I took her to the movies or something and And we, yeah, we probably dated for about a year.

49:06Cody Simpson:And I think just bonded through being in these unique situations. So it was nice. It was like, I think, just nice to relate to somebody at that age in that world.

49:22Paul C. Brunson:Especially after you just arrive.

49:24Cody Simpson:Yeah, exactly. It's probably a safe, as you said. So I'm like in high school, what am I supposed to, you know, I don't have a school with girls. My school was like Hollywood in a way, because I was homeschooled, so the only way I could meet people was literally at the Twilight premiere or at one of my shows, but that's a weird place to try. Yes. So there were very few places in which I could socially be a young dude, trying to date, trying to kiss girls. You know what I mean?

50:01Paul C. Brunson:Yeah, you were limited. Really limited. Yeah. It's interesting because I think a lot of people would say, no, you can do and go anywhere. Right. But you were limited in what you could do and where you could go. Exactly. Yeah. So then next, is this next girlfriend is GG indeed? that's your next girlfriend okay so how does that happen um

50:32Cody Simpson:my god I'm gonna be giving you all the tea here I've never broke it down like this before I might as well though um I was at the I was at the mall with my friend at the time I would have been I would have just turned 16 or something

50:55Cody Simpson:she she'd just done her first um billboard for guests ah okay um she was a couple years older than i was you know she was i think she was i think she's maybe two two or three years older than i am so she was maybe 18 i was 16 i was you know she was i thought she was like the hot older girl you know um but i were just walking through the shopping center i asked my buddy was like who's that and he goes oh that's that's that's Gigi you don't know Gigi I'm like no do you know Gigi she goes yeah kind of I can give you a you know I could like give you a number if you want like okay I'll take it I'll take it um so this is gonna sound so stupid but I I cold called her did you and I said hey it's Cody I'm a musician like I'm doing this music I'm doing this music video um i was just calling to ask if you want to be in it like um there was no music video

51:58Cody Simpson:no plans for videos have all been shot i got this i got one more video i'm shooting for my this was like right around i was doing my second album i was like i'm shooting this video i'd love love if you're trying to be in this video um i'm pretty sure i like pitched to this whole concept that didn't exist and and she goes yeah okay yeah sure um and uh i think that just broke the ice like opened up you know and so i started like texting her and i'm like i don't think the video is going to be happening more but like do you want to go do you want to catch up do you want to go out for oh no you want to go out for for for food or whatever um and i just got in my first car and i'm feeling like the man you know of course of course um and i couldn't even legally drive by myself at the time but i think i went and picked her up and i was like working and then i went and picked her up and we hung out and um yeah it was kind of like she was she was my first love man and she was, you know.

53:02Cody Simpson:Was she? Yeah, absolutely. We were together for, I don't know, for about two years, but we started hanging out, and a couple weeks later, she, like, came on tour with me, and we just, again, it was a similar thing in that we bonded through. Her family was, she came from a very, very interesting family. Her stepdad at the time was David Foster, incredible music producer yes um who i don't think i appreciated enough then having that you know that relationship with him yeah oh wow so he gave you advice yeah like he came to the studio and was like um you know he's he's really big in and and um you know he discovered michael buble you know like he's really big in jazz and all that stuff which i love now like i'm a crooner at heart like i love that stuff the standards and everything so he came to the studio once and was like if you had balls you put horns on this and at the time i was so like you know not and now i'm like yeah if i had balls i would have

54:08Paul C. Brunson:put on that you know it's a beautiful story you know and it seems like that at that time

54:15Cody Simpson:you two needed each other yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah it was fine like the universe brings people together when they're supposed to be together and and and often for there's that whole thing of the reason season lifetime guessing and yes it was certainly it was certainly we were supposed to be together when we were and um learned things from each other that were obviously necessary to learn at that time for both of us at that age you know was uh was miley cyrus

54:47Paul C. Brunson:next yeah that was about four years later okay yeah so so it was you were what 22 then 22 into 23 23 okay so still you're la um this is what it where we like 2020 so we're covid it was yeah we

55:06Cody Simpson:did all covid lockdown and everything together okay but we met we met we met um back when i was we became friends when I was like 18 okay um when she we used to go and party together and hang out and she was like we we just always had a lot in common and um she did like one of my album artworks for my song and oh wow yeah like which song which one um it was called flower so it was like when I I think she she we we connected um and bonded through kind of in a way rebelling from like being in that teen pop stardom thing and you know she's obviously like rebelled very publicly from that over the years and and went through certain things and I think when I started to go through that we became she came into my life um and helped me navigate it in some ways and and when i went independent and started doing a more singer songwriter thing and you know i was a downright hippie for a couple years and she was just like my friend during that period and um and then we touch for a few years and and then um when we're a little bit older and i guess more mature we we started talking again and and at that time it turned into something else um and and again it's one of those things it was it was very much you know we're very much meant to be together at that time for we were both sober and in very different place to what you know we were when we were friends back in the day yeah we were like kind of exploring what the hell we'd just been through good thing you know yeah she she'll always be um always be grateful for that yeah yeah i could see

57:02Paul C. Brunson:it yeah i could see that you are uh you you moved back to australia um and from my research right I see that at a certain point you started dating Emma McKeon. Yeah. Right. And what I noticed about Emma distinctly is that she is a, she's Australia's most successful athlete in Olympic history. Right. With 14 medals, including six golds. Yeah. Right. And part of me thinks, okay, you're now dedicating yourself to swimming. So who, of course, are you going to be around? Swimmer.

57:43Cody Simpson:Of course, yeah.

57:44Paul C. Brunson:So you must have met her that way.

57:46Cody Simpson:Yeah, so we met when I joined. She was in the training group that I joined when we went back, so she was training under the coach that I went and trained with, and so we met at the pool. Makes sense. And training under the same coach, and we immediately became friends, and there's only probably a group of about nine or ten of us that were training with this coach, so it was a pretty small group. It was one of those things where we connected through what we were doing and as people. It was just one of those things where we... You have to put a lot of thought into whether that's a bridge you want to cross with somebody that you know you're going to be spending the next four years with every day regardless of you know and it's also that environment is so intense that it's adding a romantic layer to it is something you really need to think about yes um but i think just after a certain amount of time it was it was inevitable and and um something that we ended up ended up being a really beautiful thing for us to to do together and um moving in together and living that lifestyle together and supporting each other and um it's a it's a lifestyle that is hard to to understand and I feel it would be difficult to be with somebody that is doing it if you're not also doing it just to understand what it takes and I think having having Emma um in my life to to uh not only support me through my goals and and vice versa for me to support her through her her goals and towards the end of her career um we were able to be that that for each other and and um

59:52Cody Simpson:And I think only lift each other up, you know. Yes. Through that, so. Yeah. You know when I'm a special person. Yeah.

1:00:00Paul C. Brunson:I can see that. You know what I find interesting about your relationships is that you have taken something from the relationship that has helped you to become a better human being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, because I think that a lot of people reflect back on their relationships with disdain or, oh, my God, I can't believe. Right. But you.

1:00:25Cody Simpson:Yeah, I've yet to I've yet to look back on anything with there's obviously things, you know, like things don't end the way you want, you know, like. But ultimately, I look back on everything positively.

1:00:38Paul C. Brunson:A quick content warning that my conversation includes mentions of addiction. So please watch with care. there's one stat that I want to throw out here and I want to get your opinion on is that so this is a 2019 study it found that 80 percent of 18 to 25 year old musicians said they had a negative mental health issue with anxiety and depression being the most common right so now there is not one person I've ever talked to who has experienced extreme fame at a young age and there's not been a negative consequence to it yeah yeah it's um

1:01:21Cody Simpson:i absolutely went through my my valley you know after the the heart you know the mountains yes um there was this there was this doctor this uh neurologist or neuroscientist i i i don't want to title him incorrectly but I met him through Miley when we were together because she would do these brain scans on her brain um that would kind of show all kinds of activity um and uh we we I met with him a couple times into these brain scans and and show it would show certain um you know where different parts of your brain are activated at different times and

1:02:16Cody Simpson:there was sometimes an issue with frontal lobe activity and dopamine or something because of I guess as he would explain it he did a lot of research on fame on the brain and he's worked with like Bieber he's worked with all these other guys especially at a young age pre your brain being fully developed your frontal lobe being fully developed as an adult and having that amount of dopamine it's like dopamine flooding as a child fame is fame is a form of of dopamine flooding in a way and going up on stage and having this this amount of admiration it's it's not a natural right it's not something that you're really supposed to experience particularly as a teenager um and so we do a lot of work on how to kind of reset that and and kind of come back to this a healthy baseline because it's so easy to kind of get caught in this immense you know immense high and immense low cycle especially as somebody who as a young person has experienced these really really immense highs it's hard for your brain to then kind of re-regulate to a place in which like normal life is enough yes um and i think that's something that a lot of people who have experienced that kind of fame young have struggled with and that's what that's why you see a lot of people going and fall into addiction and um and substance abuse and stuff just to like main to try and maintain that what they felt what that dopamine hit yeah like what you felt out on stage doing that thing to then come back and like normal life is is not enough no you know it's gonna sound crazy but i i moved out around 16 17 i bought my own place and i moved in i i ended up moving in with my like i had a young a younger day-to-day manager to a manager at the time who was also my best friend and we spent every day together work or not um and he moved in with me because I bought a place here in um I bought a place in in West Hollywood when I was 17 and uh I that's when things started to slip for me and I think it's because I rebelled a little bit against my family and my parents as which is I think a natural thing to do at that age it's not an uncommon thing for a teenager to want their own space and then to have to go and kind of learn their own learn your own lessons in a way sure um but that was also around the time that I started to rebel from 17 18 was around the time I started to rebel from what I'd built um and I started partying and kind of fell into the trappings of kind of having access to like whatever i wanted at an age that was far too young to to be you know allowed that i suppose you know like you can you can get in anywhere and you can get anything and people just say yes kind of thing it was like that amount of autonomy is unhealthy i think at that age yeah because power is also has effects on the brain as well in that way in the same way that fame does it's sort of coupled yes um and so too much of that too early is also easy to abuse um so i felt like i was at the mercy of that a little bit yes um was there an emancipation attempt yeah yeah early which I didn't know no this was like oh this was before at the start almost oh really like I yeah when I was still um when I was really early on like a very a very early um management company pre pre-scooter and everything that that were trying to I think tried to claim claim my parents were unfit parents and and and to legally emancipate me so I could work because there were limits on the amount of hours I could or days I could work and my schooling and um I think under 18 you're considered a minor in the I'm not sure exactly what the entertainment industry laws are but they were trying to uh finesse those you know just just really so you could work longer yeah really yeah yeah more money more whatever um geez so I I was fortunately sheltered from all that at that age my parents didn't tell me what was going on but they had days in um legal offices about it and all that stuff and i had no idea it was shielded from it so look at that you they didn't tell me till i was probably 19 or 20 so so so they were really

1:07:28Paul C. Brunson:protecting you but then by 16 you stepped out yourself yeah yeah yeah yeah and now you had to

1:07:35Cody Simpson:so for a couple years there I think my mom like I just I just it was a couple years there where my mom had to put google that's on her phone because it's the only way she knew where I was really because I just wouldn't I was just rebelling in every sense of the word and I wouldn't talk to her and not because she ever did anything wrong I think it was just my my way of going to find who I was outside of everything I'd been through and feeling like my identity and my life and my everything was had been imposed on me which is like a really which is ironic because I built it for myself and wanted to build it for myself and in that rebellion if you will hmm I've heard you describe 17 to 20 as

1:08:24Paul C. Brunson:messy years yeah yeah absolutely the messiest absolutely when you think about the darkest period for you so we can understand what you were going through what was that what was happening um to preface it it wasn't all bad because i was doing a lot of

1:08:45Cody Simpson:musical and creative soul searching at the time i was like discovering all this music i didn't know i was actually practicing a lot of guitar like i was there it was directed in some ways it was just that it was all very angsty and I was partying a lot and I was doing drugs and I was treating people poorly and it wasn't who I was it was like this layer on top of who I really was that was just me trying to I've been trying to find myself you know like I just I I'd realized that I've I felt trapped in what I'd built and I I was just felt like I needed to clean the slate or something you know um I felt a lot of it was a creative and musical angst I I felt misunderstood musically because I felt like I was growing a lot as an artist and I was trapped in by being a teen pop star.

1:09:56Cody Simpson:So there was a lot of that. So I was like, I'm going to do everything I can so that people don't think of me as that anymore. And, you know, there's like a lot of that stuff. And I was like, and if I have to go and party and do drugs and whatever to like, like that was almost me going, I'm not. The surfer guy. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. It could have very easily gotten worse had my parents kind of not stepped in and helped me out. How did your parents know you had slept? They knew that I was partying a lot and I was abusing, I was drinking too much and I was doing drugs and all that stuff.

1:10:36Cody Simpson:I think I got to the point where it started to affect my brain chemistry. Like I started to get really paranoid and was having some psychoses and things like that. Like I thought I was, I don't know, I'd substance abuse my way into just a detachment from reality in some sense. and I remember showing up at their house and just breaking down into tears and told them that I had a problem and I wasn't an addict but I was I needed to change whatever I was doing it wasn't working

1:11:28Cody Simpson:and thank God they just were ready to take me in

1:11:31Paul C. Brunson:and help me, you know? Yeah. Now, how did you know? Because, you know, when I do, I've talked to a lot of addicts. Right. And there's typically...

1:11:38Cody Simpson:And I can't claim to be one. I'm not. I never was. It was just this period of time where I took it way too far.

1:11:44Paul C. Brunson:Way too far. But those, well, the addicts that I've talked to, there's typically an inflection point where something happens where they realize, okay, this path is to my demise. I need to get on a new path. but what was for you the inflection point that allowed you to then go to your parents for help

1:12:06Cody Simpson:I think I just had like a really big night and I was freaking out and I was coming down and realizing that I didn't want to live in this cycle anymore and and had just slipped from I'm too far from who I was and the values that I, you know, claimed to hold dear and went to them and just broke down, you know. My nervous system and my psychology and everything was suffering a lot. And I just realized I needed to and wanted to, you know, clean up and get back on track and actually keep working towards the things I said I wanted. And, you know, that when you're in that, like, that kind of state, the partying and the highs from that can be so seductive.

1:13:04Cody Simpson:Like, they become more important than the real thing. Yes. Yes. I tell you what, your parents, you know, they seem to be the through-line superheroes for you.

1:13:18Paul C. Brunson:Yeah.

1:13:18Cody Simpson:Yeah.

1:13:19Paul C. Brunson:Truly. In your story.

1:13:21Cody Simpson:And even my dad had started going through what he was going through was still there to like, um, to, to, to hear me out and help me in the way that he could, even though he was going through his own issues. Yes. Which I don't think helped mine, you know, at the time, but, but they were both amazing. And, and, and my mom in particular was just like always ready to pick up the phone. I could not talk to her for months and I'd call, she'd answer immediately. She's been the most consistent presence in my life to this day. She's never once, and she's been through her own things and battles and she's never once not been there, which has been so awesome.

1:14:22Cody Simpson:Yes. You know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

1:14:26Paul C. Brunson:Cody, I have a surprise for you. Okay. I want you to read that for us.

1:14:36Cody Simpson:Oh, okay. I don't know what to expect here. This is, what have I got myself into? Dear Cody, watching you grow into a man who leads with such discipline, creativity and kindness has been one of the greatest joys of my life. You've always followed your heart, even when it has asked a lot of you through many challenging transitions in your life. You've always had the courage to work hard, to start again, to stay true to who you are, whether in the pool, through your music or on the stage. Even more breathtaking to me is that I've seen you learn who you are through effort, insane courage, and the many moments you trusted yourself even when the path wasn't clear.

1:15:30Cody Simpson:I admire your integrity, the way you commit fully, stay curious, push boundaries, and move through the world with humility and a big heart. you've never chased applause for its own stake instead you've chased growth, truth and meaning for your own personal goals you are one of the proudest achievements in my life and you know you've already won in my eyes I love you beyond words from mama that's from your mom

1:16:01hey

1:16:03Paul C. Brunson:that's nice it's beautiful man

1:16:11Cody Simpson:yeah yeah thank you for thank you for organizing that that's really sweet yeah

1:16:18Paul C. Brunson:i i i tell you what she truly she is your angel yeah yeah she is yeah i'll tell you what i'll do is i will hold on to that thank you and then i will give that back to

1:16:31Cody Simpson:you yeah thank you so you can have that that's awesome yeah man it's funny to think that she I'm older than I'm now like three years older than she was when she had me you know and for me still feeling like I'm not ready to have a child or to put someone to because I've always said I don't want to have a kid until I feel truly ready to completely put somebody before myself or like I feel like I'm in a place in my life where I can because once I have a kid I want my entire you know that's that's it right yes and to think that she was 26 I just turned 29 this week and to think she was 26 when she had me and that I've I guess that she has put me before her own needs and everything since then is is really emotional to think about you know yeah and i think that like that i guess to think that i still am am that for her along with my other siblings it's it's a lot yeah it's love yeah yeah it is

1:17:52Paul C. Brunson:It's love. Absolutely. It's love. All right. If you've made it this far, I know you're loving the conversation. So please do me one small favor. Hit that bell icon. Join our community. Thank you. You know, when you were talking about going to your parents and saying, hey, I've hit rock bottom here, obviously they heard you. Yeah. Was that the road to you then temporarily leaving music? It was.

1:18:23Cody Simpson:Yeah. Okay. Swimming is a really disciplinary sport in that it's extremely, extremely grueling. And it's like, I may be biased having been one myself, but there are very few sports that require as much of you as often as swimming. there may be gymnastics or it's it's a sport that is very um unforgiving um you get a week or two a year off the rest of the time your your whole life is um based around training is absolutely as as hard as as humanly possible and then sleeping and eating and then doing it again like it's there's not one decision in your life can be not about that yes it's a very but but that's something that i i love discipline and i love this like odd freedom that it gives you to like explore what you're capable of and like that was something that was missing in my life as a creative that like that part of my brain was not getting tickled right like so it was something that kept no uh tugging at me that i needed to explore and go and live again for a while.

1:19:40Paul C. Brunson:But was the idea to live again in swimming for a while or do you have a specific objective?

1:19:45Cody Simpson:My objective was to make the Australian swim team, to represent my country in the sport, like at the highest level. Because knowing me, I just, I wasn't going to go and do it half-assed. Yeah, that's much like, I'm going to go and get to the top of the sport, you know. There must be some type of counter push against, well, you're a pop star now.

1:20:12Paul C. Brunson:Oh, yeah. Like, you can't.

1:20:13Cody Simpson:What are you doing? I think that's why it took me so long to really believe it was something that, one, I had the time and bandwidth for, but two, that was even possible. because swimming is one of those sports where there's never really been anybody that didn't train through their teens and early 20s that went on to make a national you know to to compete internationally or to beat to to to get to

1:20:43Paul C. Brunson:that level like it's people you just don't do it how many years off did you take so from swimming you said you'd stop swimming 10 years so you're off for a decade stopped swimming at 13 got back in the water at 23 yeah okay yeah with the objective make the australian swim team yeah represent my country yeah now how how do you get to that because you just said that it's unheard of for someone to not swim in their late teens yeah and then achieve anything uh consequential right right but how so yeah I remember when I started um it was around it was uh 2019 um I was at a real crossroads and I was preparing

1:21:31Cody Simpson:a new project I'd actually finished or was close to finishing this this album it was I guess a bit of a pop comeback kind of album you know it was like very much like for the purpose of really coming back into into the music scene in a in a you know a big way or whatever and um I tried a music video I the album was getting mixed like it was I was I was gonna sign this deal was talking this label and then on the other hand I'd started uh jumping in i'd started jumping in the water again i just i had this thought of i can't fail because if i go all in and it doesn't work at least i can say i'd try i did it and the monkey's off my back yes i mean yes because it was getting heavier and heavier and i was like if i don't do this i'm gonna regret it forever kind of thing um but it required blowing my life up and you know absolutely sacrificing things and having to let people go and you know i had managers you know i had all these things that i just wouldn't have been able to to keep or maintain i would i knew i would have to leave la where i'd grown up i knew i'd have to go back to australia you know and i set i set 2024 as kind of the end goal so it was like a limited i'm giving myself this much time okay to see how much I can get out of myself and I'm giving everything else up and I could kind of wrap my head around that it was like this is a four-year window I can always come back to this but I'm allowing myself this time and I'm gonna do nothing else but but that and if and if I get to the end of of that that period and I've gotten absolutely nothing out of it which i doubt you know i will if i give it what i say i'm gonna give it then it's just four years who cares you know yes i'll be 27 at the end of it i'm gonna i'll be a baby still it doesn't matter so i made decision i was like i'm gonna go all in and then covet happened the world shuts down of course of course but i adapted i i had to adapt i started doing like these home workouts and just I just started getting healthy and and um trying to prepare my body as well as I could for when the world opened up again and I could start to walk the path so um I got connected with with a coach who was a former Australian Olympian and And I very quickly expressed to him that I wasn't kidding and that I wanted to come back to swimming.

1:24:24Cody Simpson:And he took me seriously. I think he started sending me sessions and I had this little community center pool down the road that I would jump the fence and go and swim in. So you were still in LA? Yeah, I was in LA. I was in the valley and there was this pool that was closed, but I'd go and hop the fence and swim in it. Oh, wow. and do these sessions that he was riding me he's like okay do these for a month and get some aerobic fitness under your belt before i come back out there and um we'll start so you would sneak into this pool yeah to swim but dude it was and we we ended up doing that for the first like six months of like during lockdown so we would we ended up jumping fences to pools that we knew like would be open for us to you know we we got kicked out a few times by security when they found us in their training it was like rocky like it was a very i want to make a movie about it it was so cinematic early you know 5 a.m mornings jumping the fence to this pool my coach was was really good at sort of like putting me in situations i wasn't ready for so that i could it's like the theory of you know you gotta jump in the deep end and find your feet and that's precisely how you became successful as a pop art yeah yeah so i thought well okay i'm just gonna say yes to everything and he put me in races i wasn't ready for too soon and i'd crumble and fail and i'd go home and you know i punched a couple walls out of just sheer frustration and just angst towards towards the fact that I wanted this thing so badly but felt like my my maybe my window was closed or I didn't have enough time to achieve it or I'd taken too long off or you know all these thoughts going through my head I ended up moving back to Australia early 2021 and joined um a coaching group there okay and um and decided to I guess spend the next three years training with them and living back in my hometown which was kind of a nice well look at that thing yeah full circle moment which I knew eventually would have to happen because it wasn't living living in Los Angeles and doing it was just not it was not as conducive to true I guess athletic lifestyle it was just LA is a really weird distracting place at times for that kind of thing um I ended up going to that olympic trials and making the final like i made top eight in the country after a year or less of of uh having come back to training and i think everyone was just kind of blown away including myself it was like yes this is crazy you know to have come from obscurity i'm now top eight in the country and and you know it's one of the better swimming nations in the world So just doing that was like quite an achievement in that amount of time.

1:27:37Paul C. Brunson:Do you believe at that point you can now make the Olympic team?

1:27:42Cody Simpson:Then at that time, after that, after 2021, I thought I've got what it takes. If I've come this far this quick, I can do something here. Okay.

1:27:53Paul C. Brunson:How is it then that, so that's 2021. And so that, yeah, yeah. The Olympics, it was 2024. Yeah. Okay, which is Paris Olympics. Paris, yeah. 2024. So you come close.

1:28:12Paul C. Brunson:So where was the – how did you not make the team? So, yeah, so 2021 came around. Then the following year was – the following year was Commonwealth Games.

1:28:26Cody Simpson:Okay. Okay. Okay. And so every year they have, every year is a new, they do a trials every year for whatever that major meet of that year is. Okay. And so it essentially resets every year. So you have to essentially be ready to go on that day, you know, at your qualifying thing. You have the heats and the semifinals and the finals and you have to swim your race and qualify through each thing. and then for the Australian national team, they basically take two guys per event. Two guys per event. Over the next 12 months, I end up improving rapidly and I end up making the Commonwealth Games for Australia.

1:29:16Cody Simpson:So that was my first Australian team. I end up going to the Commonwealth Games and for people that are not, I guess, in the Commonwealth, for Commonwealth countries, it's kind of like, the olympics but it's like one below the it's kind of the other team anyone in swimming hopes to make okay you know aside from the olympics so it was like a huge thing for me to do that and end up going and making the final at com games and um and we won a couple we won gold and silver i was in the men's um relay teams and we won one and we had to go i walked over the gold and silver there which was cool look at that um so that was like a whole to be in that to be on that team and to to be at that level after two years was something i could have only dreamed of as as a

1:30:08Paul C. Brunson:kid you know absolutely and not just after two years of training but then in 10 years old previously yeah yeah so it was kind of it was it was incredible it was honestly it made

1:30:22Cody Simpson:it was almost like it made everything worthwhile and anything that happened from then on was like a bone it could be was a bonus almost for me and uh and then 2024 essentially it was one of those cutthroat things of I'd done everything perfectly in in the year prior from sleep to eat to train I'd never trained that hard in my life or is that that perfectly in my life and everything was kind of shaped up for things to happen but it was like on the day i was beat out you know and a couple tenths of a tenth of a second is all it takes to you know to be on or off the plane and and that's just like how the dice rolled for me on that day and regardless of making or missing the olympics getting myself to the level to even be

1:31:21Cody Simpson:like just yeah the tap at that level yeah required so much from me and i grew so much and learned so much about myself and what i was capable of like i put myself in so many situations in which i had no idea how i was going to get through when i found my way through them and you just you realize that I don't know you athletic athletic training is so beautiful in the way that you you learn so much about your own mind and what you're capable of and how we're often usually only you know the the first time you feel tired or like you can't do anymore you're usually at about 40 percent of what you have you know yes it's just your brain trying to protect you so like Like being able to play with that and explore that was really awesome.

1:32:14Cody Simpson:And I now feel like everything feels easier now having kind of gone through that.

1:32:20Paul C. Brunson:So you can apply everything that you've learned in that training now to just music, business.

1:32:29Cody Simpson:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and the focus and just the tolerance for discomfort or the patience for the results or the persistence required to achieve anything. There's just all these other lessons that I learned from it that I now feel like I was meant to go through to learn to apply back to what I'm doing now. There you go. Nothing just happens. No, no, exactly. And in a way, it saved my life from what was going on before. It did. So it totally redirected me and I now, like, I will never be back in that place I was. It was just this whole, like, purification ritual, you know, in a way. Like, it was such a beautiful thing to experience.

1:33:13Paul C. Brunson:So you could say swimming literally saved you? Yeah, yeah.

1:33:17Cody Simpson:Because had I not even, because had I not had the desire to do that, I would have been like, yeah, I'm going to go all the way down this path and, you know. Yeah. I've got nothing else, so might as well, you know. But that dream and that vision of being an athlete again and being a swimmer 1 ,000 % saved my life and my well-being for sure. Wow, that's powerful. That's powerful.

1:33:45Paul C. Brunson:So, Cody, now, what in the world are you going to do next? Are you going to run for office?

1:33:53Cody Simpson:are you mate i'm i'm jumping i'm going back to the main quest i'm back in the studio i'm i'm i'm i think i'm the happiest i've been in my life okay on a day-to-day basis i haven't felt this this creative or i've just i'm just buzzing like morning to night at the moment and it's a really special time in my life like i feel like i feel like i did when i was 14 when i came over here really yeah and i think that's i think that's just because i had the time off i had to go to swim and and now coming back into the music business it feels really fresh and exciting again okay you know like i feel i feel excited to i love feeling like i'm at the bottom of a mountain staring up at it about to climb yeah you know and i've been in this position a few times in my life and I feel like I'm there again yes and it's the most exciting place for me to be like for me it's it's it's it's never about reaching the top because I know that when you get there it's not what you expected it to be anyway right the most joy for me comes in being right here like standing at the bottom of it staring up or like on the climb you know yes yes and so being back in in music and I'm preparing a project at the moment.

1:35:16Cody Simpson:Just signed a new record deal, which is exciting. Congratulations. Not a 360 deal, thank God.

1:35:21Paul C. Brunson:Congratulations. You know. So you're at the bottom of the mountain looking up. What's at the top?

1:35:28Cody Simpson:At the top is, at the top is being able to go anywhere in the world and play for, play music for a lot of people and bring them joy. And this is the first time I've ever felt like I'm not in a rush in my life. So it's nice.

1:35:46Paul C. Brunson:It's really nice. Yeah. You can see that you're in a space of, you're in the, probably the best space of your life to create.

1:35:57Cody Simpson:Yes. Yes. And it's been so fruitful because I am in this place. Yeah. I haven't been this creative ever. Ever like it's almost like as long as I stay in this place and remind myself of it like it tends to the doors The doors Tending to stay open which is nice. Yes.

1:36:21Paul C. Brunson:Yeah. Well, then you're ready for the last question. Okay. All right Here it is. It's my favorite. Okay. Okay ready you think about all the incredible Conversations you've had in your life. Yeah, which one stands out as the most memorable? Who was it with and what did you learn? Oh my gosh it's a hard one wow i'm not just saying this because i'm sitting here this has been really

1:36:45Cody Simpson:special this really has appreciate it it's a really good question i think one that sticks out to me is when i was at the beginning of my swimming journey that um at 23 going to driving to my first proper training session it was 5 15 in the morning like the sun's coming up over LA and uh I call I call Phelps and I was just like man I'm I'm excited but I'm really scared like I don't know I know what to expect but also don't you don't until you're in it you know and and he just gave me advice on on persistence and just told me to expect it to take he said it's going to take longer way longer than you in in the moment it's going to feel like it's taking way longer than you um want it to okay but then when you look back it's going to feel like it happened in the blink of an eye um and he said he just said the first few months are going to feel the hardest and then it's going to get easier from there and um and he said you just have to persist through the you just have to you almost have to mentally armor yourself to know that you're gonna be you're gonna be negotiated with by your own brain and you have to be if you're prepared to be negotiated with by your own brain you're gonna be prepared to negotiate back yes and um and uh he said get through the first 30 days and call me and um it was true it was like i had built those first 30 days were the hardest and then you kind of built a little bit of resilience and you and i think it's true for anything in your life in those first few months doing anything you're going to be the most difficult um particularly if it's a new skill or a new endeavor or whatever and it's it's unfortunate that a lot of people give up in that in that time yes at the first sign of discomfort or adversity or whatever and I think it's it's those who learn how to negotiate back with themselves or or stick to what they said they were going to do and do it anyway that that tend to get those breakthroughs yes and that's been something that that swimming taught me a lot and something I still use in in my life now is doing what you said you were going to do you know so you're going to go to bed at this time go to bed at that time you said you were gonna write two songs today write two songs you know yes um and so when you when your brain when your brain starts to accept that it's funny like you almost have like your you have your reactive mind which is the one that's going stop you know and then you have the other part the witness that's going no keep going and And so once you can kind of pull some space between those two parts of your brain and use the back one more, and your brain understands that you're going to use that one, and it gets easier to not negotiate.

1:40:02Cody Simpson:Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. You get out of that first mind into the second mind. Yeah.

1:40:10Paul C. Brunson:And that's the one you want to be in. And your life is a reflection of that, not just through swimming, but through your music career as well.

1:40:21Cody Simpson:It's like trading what you want. You don't want to trade what you want most for what you want now. I love that quote. I love it. You know? Love it.

1:40:31Paul C. Brunson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. You know, so you know this. You're 29. You're a young man. right yeah uh you are in chapter two of a 22 chapter book you know yeah but you've achieved more than most people will achieve in their life and you've done some phenomenal things in terms of sports in terms of music right thank you but i truly believe now sitting having shared the space with you i think your greatest achievement is going to be fatherhood oh let's get goosebumps mate i think that's going to be your greatest achievement because the moment that you consciously decide that's what you're going to do you're going to be exceptional at it thank you i

1:41:25Cody Simpson:have always felt like thank you by the way that's very high compliment to bestow up on someone so i appreciate that firstly and secondly it's it's on that note it's something i've always felt like is part of my you know some people know they're not going to have kids or don't want them you know what I mean like for me it's I know I will have them and I know that's going to be an important element in my life when it happens yes and I'm excited and I'm very excited to be a dad one day you know and and I would like to be very I would like to be good at it yeah but that's very kind thank you yeah yeah thanks so much thank you and as a father you yeah I'm sure you're you're just the same so yeah

1:42:16Paul C. Brunson:I appreciate it you're gonna have to call my boys and ask them yeah

1:42:19Cody Simpson:I don't know about that he says he is he's not as good as that's awesome man

1:42:25Paul C. Brunson:yeah it's been epic thank you I appreciate it thank you thank you what a great guy he He has reinvented himself twice in two different career paths already by the time he's 29. My biggest impression of Cody after this conversation is how disciplined he is. And that's why I think the second music career that he's about to have is going to be next level. Because he's literally been through Olympian training. He says something that really is going to stay with me forever is once you hit the place that you want to give up, you're only 40 % there. That's your brain telling you just stop, but you need to retrain your brain to just tell you to keep going and you can keep going.

1:43:21Paul C. Brunson:That stays with me. Fame is incredibly dangerous for everyone. No one can escape the danger of fame. namely when you come into it so young. But I also think, and he mentioned this, is that there's some very positive things that come with fame, access, power, resources, etc. Now that he's older, I think he'll be able to manage it a lot differently. Pregnancy's scary. You don't know what's going on behind closed doors. The speculation, it feels like it's increased. Nobody knows. I've never spoke about it before. I'll make you fall in love. I remember sneaking out X Factor to see One Direction. To the relationship with Zane.

1:44:08Paul C. Brunson:It was your first true love. We were engaged to be married, but when I look back now, it was a little bit toxic. Why do you think that is? How did you get through that heartbreak? The girls. In terms of how successful the group was, numbers don't lie.

1:44:23Cody Simpson:It was really hard to have relationships,

1:44:25Paul C. Brunson:because we were never home. And I remember it came out in the press that I was seeing Alex, And my dad, he was just fuming, my brother was fuming. You've just dated a boy band member who's completely shattered your soul, and now you're going for a footballer. And I was like, I think I love him. Oh. Alex and I have been through a lot. Um...

1:44:48Paul C. Brunson:I remember every night before a show, I kept bleeding. I just knew something was wrong. Alex just put his hand on my leg and he went, oh, no. We lost the baby at, like, 24 weeks. In a world that is so cruel, we need more Perry's. Before, my success was kind of determined by how I would chart. And now I'm in a place with my album that if one person loves it, I'm happy. I'm done. So when are we getting new music?

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