Estelle EXCLUSIVE The Truth Behind AMERICAN BOY “I Prayed For The Strength To Speak To Kanye!”

28:37was it just that we were just too big on ego? no it was just the dominant space of music I don't know that it was ego because whenever they would come and they would have to come and do promo here it was a lot of love when I went it was a lot of like yo there's loose ends is Soul to Soul and they would start counting down all that so they knew we existed and I was like well there's also Damage Misha Paris and I would start running off all Beverly Knight Huff B Soul David like David Lindenhaut I would start running off all the names Craig David there's all these people too you should check out and I've been that person that's partly why I had my show I also met a lot of artists at the beginning of their career rap artists like Mos Def like Slum Village oh wow who came through who came through the shop, Deal Real.

29:24I met them at the beginning of their careers or at least maybe a year or two in. Oh, wow. Okay. So there was always that personal commonality. Later on when I see them, I'm just like, yeah, we know each other. We've been out here, you know? How many... They know us. ...black women from the States, whether they be in hip-hop or R &B, were coming through the U.K. at that time? Oh, my goodness. Rod Digger. Jill Scott he's a soul child it was only the big groups the Destiny Childs the like A. Marie's and those people that came over in that era they wouldn't send the R &B girls to the UK like that which was odd to me it was never really a whole come and touch the people like there is now yeah and also too in the UK then and even now is such a huge music market like in the research I was seeing it blew me away the US is the biggest market Japan is the second biggest and then the UK is the third in terms of domestic markets around music so UK huge market lots of genres popping off in the UK incredible artists popping off in the UK but when I look back and when I read and research it feels like black women in music there has been the lowest of low ceilings place and we've had Jamelia on, you know, when I look at careers like Miss Dynamite's career.

30:53And I think, well, one is, is this just me saying this? Or do you believe that there was a very low ceiling placed on black women in music in the UK? They just didn't expect us to do shit. And that's the frustration of it all, because we have very high expectations. And why not? The worthiness of my dreams is not based on anybody else's version of events. you know um so when i'm shooting for the stars i'm gonna go get that you know get out the way it was always my thought if you if you're not the one get out of my way let me go find the person you know let me go find the thing or let me go get to the thing myself um but there was a lot of very much in your face like why are you even bothering i have people who and black people who thought who would actively say she's a waste of money and then be at the shows clapping for me at the Mobos.

31:46You know, to my face, two people around me. And I was like, you go away. Go sit down somewhere, but you're a waste of time. So, like, it was a lot of, like, don't even, you're not as good as you're never going to be as good as. And I saw it being leveled at the black women who were trying things. And I think I came in via hip-hop. So I managed to dodge some of it. Interesting. But even when I got there, it was still a good amount of people like, why are you bothering? What's your plan here? You've done it with the 18th day. Now go sit down and go find something to do. And I was just like, well, I didn't start with you, so I'm for sure not listening to a thing you have to say.

32:26Yeah. But why was it so? I mean, I could come up with probably 50 different reasons, but you were in it. Like, why was it so? Why were people saying you're a waste of money? Why? I can't call it. I feel like it's self-hate to a degree. And I don't know what anybody else has been through. And I don't like to call people's experiences shit. But I don't know. I just feel like it's very weird to discourage somebody from dreaming. It's very weird to do everything you can do to try and knock down their version of greatness. It's a very weird approach to have in life. But there are a lot of people who do it, I think.

33:07And also I think they do it to be seen as like, like cool and in the, in the, in the boys club or in the, in the crew of people who are, you know, wherever they want to be in whatever department that they rep or whatever label they rep or whatever company they rep. And it's just wildly just, it's hate. It's just being a hater, essentially. I can't call why. I think there's just like a ceiling of like you've done enough or energy of like that's okay but don't go too much you know that I remember her name she did that poem on the Beyonce album she was like they teach you to just do enough don't be too much it's okay just stay at that level I believed and lived the exact poem my whole life like why Why do I have to stay at your level?

34:01Who dictated that? What's that going to do with me? That's your business. Is this one of the reasons why, or should I say a main reason why you left? For sure. I saw, well, the main fundamental reason was I was signed to the U.S. I was signed in the U.S. Okay. After I asked the U.K. company to let me go. Because I believe in myself. I signed to Atlantic U.S. And I didn't think anything of it more than I was like, well, I guess I'm going to have to be out there now. You know, when I was with my label in the UK, it was a lot of support and equally a lot of like, OK, well, she's done it. You know, we gave it the shot.

34:46I think part of why they signed me was like staying cool and on the cusp. It's a business. I get it. You want to sign the hottest thing on the street. And at the time it was like, yeah, she's the name. and even as much as I was the name, it was like, I would go to the labels and they were like, we don't get it. And then I'd see demo for any other British female or anything and I'd be like, that sound like my record. And they pop, they blow and they big in the charts. I'm like, I know I have something. I know I have something. So the opportunity came for me to learn the business and I realized the route I took was so that I could have a clear blueprint.

35:25for my own career. Okay. Being independent, knowing how to do it by myself, knowing how to like do everything from press up vinyl to organize an interview, knowing how to go and get it played at radio, watching and seeing all of the things. Couldn't have happened if I had just signed straight to a label. Okay. And just, I had to go through all of that because I'm doing it now. You know, with my new album, I've been doing it for the past 12 years by myself, by myself. with my team. But you're leading it. I'm leading it, yeah. But I could never have the confidence to do that if I hadn't did it back then because they kept saying no.

36:05And then when they finally said yes and we had success, they still said no. Right. I was just like, I'm sick of the no. No. So early on, that deal, the first deal that you got in the U.S., that was, but that's on a major. A major, yeah. All right, so one thing that we have to say, though, because I think a lot of folks don't know the Roscoe's Chicken story. And this is near and dear to my heart because Roscoe's, whenever I land in L.A., that's the first stop. You get off the plane and everyone's like, go to Roscoe's Chicken. It's the closest to Morley's. It's the closest to Nando's. Roscoe's, right, at the time.

36:48And so we were staying up the street, me and my homegirl. it was Kanye's mixtape that he had out after his very first time he put out a mixtape and it was just like it was really it was just like him, John GLC, Consequence like all the time Chicago, New York and it was like one of my favorite mixtapes, I want to tell you I used to just rock that 24-7 I used to be in my back, I was in my like this is it and I would listen to that ad nauseum at the house on whenever I was walking down the street. I was like, this guy's voice. I feel something with it. I just don't know. I just feel like we're going to do something good.

37:26If I could just find him. Like my boyfriend at the time was like, you smile so much. Do you know this guy? He's like, I love to see you smile. But like, do you know this guy? And I was like, I don't. But look, it's the music. His voice makes me just feel good. It's just a thing with his voice. I feel it somewhere. Like we're connected somewhere. I don't know. It just feels like church. And it feels like home. And I just, you know, that was a real thought. And like, I'm walking down the road. So I have my little Gucci slides on. And my little short skirt. Mark Echo. It was just wild fashion. It was wild fashion.

38:02Don't laugh. And I go to Roscoe's and I've got my headphones in. And I'm like, look up, look to the right. It's Kanye. Just in Roscoe's just. Big chilling. Eating food. And I know my eyes widen. So I just gathered myself. I was like, I want a Carol C special. I'll just be there. She's like, yeah, okay, 15 minutes, I'll come get you. I was like, okay. I go outside and I do a prayer. Did you? Yep. I was like, dear God, if you are there right now, please, I need him to come outside so I can say something to him in Jesus' name. I just need to tell him I need to work with John. That's all I need. And please, if you are real, I need you to make it happen in Jesus' name.

38:48Thank you. Amen. man. Then I go back to listening to the record and then Kanye walked right outside. And I said, Oh, thank you. Hi. Hello. I'm a star, you know, people I know. Cause he had just been to London. I heard the conversation was he'd just been to London. He was working with so solid and, you know, just making buzz. Okay. Being in studio with different producers. And I had just done a record recorded free with Megaman. So it was waiting to come out. It was all in. It's like, I just worked with someone like, you know, anyway, John legend. where is he he looks at me like i got two heads he's like you you know him i was like yeah i i don't but like i know his voice he's really good i don't want you to do a record with him he's like all right well take my number come to the studio and my thing is i think the confidence that i have been around different rappers and artists i don't it's not a thought to me you know and so i go to the studio and i'm sitting talking to john because i'm a nerd like i read books and I'm definitely the computer girl like ooh the newest Mac is out so this is your first time meeting John Litchell but sorry if his voice makes you smile but here's the thing he doesn't speak like he sings have you heard him speak and sing like I've heard I mean I've heard him like in an interview yeah well he was very self spoken at the time and he doesn't sound like oh when he speaks he's very like you know and he's calm then he goes into the studio to sing and me Kanye's on the roller going up and down record factory and i'm like did we just come out here to get cookies where you've john like what i'm just listening to him talk and he's like what you just met he was just talking to him i was like so i felt like i blow my chance to ask him in that i was like god damn it like so i was like oh let's go back here so we go back in and he's in the studio and we're listening to the record that he's cutting and kind of he's like yo you're missing this note and he couldn't figure out what the note was so I sang the note for him and John was like I did that note and I was like it's there and I'm like I'm just I know what I'm doing in the studio so I was like it's it's probably turned down it's it's this note right and he's like yeah and I was like it's probably turned down it was like that one's and the guy I had muted it.

41:08Okay. And they look at me like I got three heads because, why are you telling us what to do? Who the fuck are you? What the hell is happening? I'm just like, I know what I know, okay? And I'm not afraid to, like, say it. So let that sit. And he's like, he comes down. I was like, yeah, I didn't realize. Hi, I'm Estelle, by the way. And I have this record I really want you to sing. And I'm like, all right, so play it. So I played it to them. I came prepared. I had prerecorded a version of Hey Girl. Okay. And I did his vocal. that how well i wanted him to sing it because again i'm studying i'm listening i'm like this is he's gonna be so great on this record and he heard it and they were like all right just leave it with us like but we fuck with you you cool like you know i was like all right thank you bye like i got my business go home we stay in touch on email and he hits me he's like yeah kanji said i can do it you know like it's no beef on like it's no issues the label do their thing but he likes you know he liked the record he said do it if i want to and i was like what do you want to and he's like yeah I was like, cool.

42:07I said, well, when you back in London, when you come to London, he said, well, I'll be over there because we finished my album, we signed, da-da-da-da-da-da. He comes over. We go to the studio. He knocks it out. We will eat Chinese food and then everything. That's how the relationship goes. That's how it goes, yeah. And we stayed in touch because it was music. I think his thing was always like, your melodies are second to none. He has me come out on every single tour date, show date. I'm always, he's always like, come be a part of what we got. when we're here. And I don't know if the label saw this or cared, but the A &R, the end of the project, when I'm getting ready to start the new record, I was like, well, John wants to help me.

42:47Co-exec produces out my arch. John, to do it, he says, absolutely, I'll do it with you. I told him, John wants to do it with me, and they told me, they asked me who he is, and I want to punch a wall. I was like, let me go, please. Because this is before Get Left, this is before, though. No, this John Legend at this point has gone platinum. Oh, what? He's on every magazine cover you could think of. He is the John Legend. And they're still asking you, who is he? Who, who? Yeah. And I said, let me go. I was like, let me go. Let me go now. Let me go from the label. I don't care. Because you can't, you're not on the same page.

43:24But it sounds like they're really saying, they know, they're aware of him. They're just saying. We don't care. We don't care. We don't care. Who do you think you are? Who do you think he is? Yeah. and that's the energy that I felt you know and you saw it as a whole system that you didn't want to engage with so that's really that's why you go to the US or it's by me to tell John I might be leaving the label and him said he said to me I'll sign you I was like you sure you know I work you know I'm not one of these what is it I'm not one of these Saturdays like I go to work and he was like yeah come on Were you the first person that John let you sign?

44:05He literally started a label to sign me. He believed in me that much. He was like, I see you working, and I know I'm just along for the ride, but I'll help you. I was like, thank you. That's incredible. It's a lot of love. Because I see that you've been receiving that, though, throughout all those. The growth of your career is the validation, and people immediately seeing the talent. But behind the talent, they saw the passion, And that's probably really what connected John Legend to your work. I believe it. I hope you won't mind that we're taking a quick break from this conversation to talk about my show sponsor, Shopify.

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46:14Because if you're with the right person, even the hiccups become part of the story you'll both laugh about later. And that's what Tinder is all about and a sponsor of this podcast. You might think it's just for hookups, but in fact, on Tinder, a relationship starts every three seconds. So forget about planning the perfect date and just pick the right person to go on it with. It starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today. So then at what point do you write the iconic... The writing one? What is it? Ten years later, no, I was joking. But you wanted this, though. You wanted a song that you could sing to the end of time in any country in the world, any city in the world.

47:02I have a few of them, thank God. Come on now. Won't he do it? Won't he do it? When do you write? I write that in 2006. Six Okay so you're in the States Yes You're signed to John Legend And Atlantic When he's like come to Miami I've got sessions with Will.i.am I've got some shows out there Come on Cool Well they set up a session with Will.i.am For me to be there too And he plays He plays the bass of it Not the intro Just the Like the bass line of it And he's playing that whole thing And he starts running the track And I was like Run that back what is what is that okay he's like I don't think I said no I said if this isn't a hit you're gonna make your money back because I'm going to Ibiza with it and I'm gonna make you your money back I'm gonna go take this record we're gonna release it in Ibiza I had a whole independent plan for it I was like it's gonna be good I'm gonna perform it just Ibiza we're gonna make it just in Ibiza I and Apple will love this okay cause I know this it felt like Garage it felt like that vibe Joe's like what have you been doing out here?

48:13And I'm like, I've been on the beach. Because while you've been recording, I've been enjoying myself. I've been having a time. These guys loves me. These men love me. And I've been loving the men. It's been glorious. And he's looking at me like, such a child. I'm just like, absolutely. I'm going to have a good time. He's like, well, come on, let's write the record. And he puts in, this time he did the melody. He's like, you know, like, da, da, da, da, da, da. And I'm like, yeah. And I was like, da, da, da. We back and forth on the different things. And then we filled in the words. One of his friends actually came up with the...

48:48We was like, don't like his baggy, but I might like what's underneath him. One of his friends said that, and I was just like, okay. Who are you, young star? Like, what is this? Anyhow, I vocal a demo vocal with everyone in the room. And we're like, this feels special. Because it felt fun. It was genuinely, we were just in there, like, talking shit. yeah just having a good time having a good time and then john leaves you know i stay in miami a couple of days and i revocal it it took me all the 15 minutes wow i did it with the biggest smile on my face i was just having all the joy i was just like and but he gave me notes on it was like you know when you sing it like be bright like i was just like oh that's easy yes i can channel um holly from hidey high like all the british comedies and all the fun dixie I was like that was my channeling and then we would have all these conversations about the Motown lives and what made them great and that was our other thing was music and one of them one of the things about the Supremes that no one really knows is like Diana Ross was put in the front this is so the story goes Diana Ross I'm sure will say something different but she's put in front because her voice was light it wasn't so gospel-y it wasn't so black right and you know So the idea was like, well, just do a lighter version of the record.

50:12Sing it lighter. Oh, that was a jealous note to you. Yeah, he was like, you know, sing it lighter. He said, remember the Diana Ross? And that was the conversation we were having. I was just like, yeah, let me try. Let me try. So when I sang it, I was like, I was in my Supremes. I was in there like, I was really doing Diana in my head. Oh, wow. And I was giving Polly in the like, I really want to give you. You know, like going. Yes. I see it. I see it now. Exactly. Think about how she would do like, can't hurry love. Like, oh, you just have to. The shoulders and the cleat, you know, the decolletage.

50:51Like the whole like, that was everything I was giving. And so all of that intention went into that record. Wow. And it was just fun. It was the whole point. It was like, I kept saying in the booth. I remember that I'm like, this is going to be fun. People are going to have fun to this. It's going to be so joyful. You know, like, this is it. And that's it. It took us, like I said, 15, 20 minutes to hit and left it and went home. That's the only point that almost feels disappointed to me. Look, but it takes you 10 to 20 years to get to 15 minutes. Okay? It takes you 10 to 20 years of studying, of practicing the house, of singing every minute I got, annoying every single person around me, annoying myself yes like stretching my vocal like training myself to sing octaves that were not natural to me you know bronchitis laryngitis traveling body folded over i'm barely unfurling my body getting in the studio singing figuring out to be 15 minutes and perfect yeah it's incredible in in in the research uh you i mean you know this better than me it was number nine on the Billboard Hot 100.

51:59Yeah. Obviously won a Grammy Award. Best Rap Song Collaboration. Four times platinum in the UK, exceeding 2.4 million copies in the UK alone. Five times platinum in the United States. Just like... Good time. It's a good time. Yeah. It's a good time. It just felt like it was buoyed by such good energy and goodwill, too. And it lives forever. You know what's so profound to me about American Boy in particular is that, so I have a 14-year-old and 11-year-old, right? They know that song. Yes. That's the plan. They know it. A matter of fact, you know, I got the most number of cool points with them ever.

52:45Because I was like, you know, I've got Estelle coming on. They said, you've got Estelle. I was like, I know Estelle. We go back like 10 plus years. They were like, Dad, why didn't you tell me you know Estelle? Because here's the thing. my sisters feel the same about you, by the way. Oh, really? Yeah, they came to your, they come to your talks. They come, they're like, oh. They had a whole, I was like, yeah. They showed me pictures at one of your talks. They were like, we was at the panel. I was just like, all right, did you get close? Tell them I said hi. Yeah, I know. I was like, isn't this, it's wild.

53:16Yeah. It's wild. But the song, though, is, by the way, tell your sisters I said hello. I will. Yeah. They're going to see this. They're going to see it. Yeah. But the song, the fact that it is so profound to them, that means that you got this through time and the Kathy Sledge who I grew up looking at on a wall with my parents was on FaceTime with me in the Panini that's when I call it the Panini the pandemic she was like come on my show and I was like when would you like me there and with bells I'll be there you know and we get on Instagram live and she's like that's a forever record I was like it is it is like yours like yours like the many you have like the many like the many you have thank you you know will there ever be an American boy 2.0 no you didn't even give it a second no who wants that no no no no who wants that I want that you know what alright so let me let me give you this I gave them that and it wasn't me who wrote it it was it was me entertaining the idea from the label playing ball has a song called Fall in Love which I still like.

54:27It's just beautiful, melodic songs. Really cute. And I love singing it. But they didn't want it. It was like, it was all intents and purposes. If you go look it up, there's a song called Falling Love. It features John Legend and it features Nas. I have a record with Nas. John Legend and Nas. And nobody wanted that record. They didn't play it. They just, they were like, eh, it's not American Boy. I was like, well, because American Boy is American Boy. Can I just do what I came here to do there? Yes. And then we moved along and thank you. And then, you know, and here we are. Continue. Conqueror.

55:01One love. One love. Freak. Like, you know. Yeah, obviously. I don't think that's your only forever record. No, no, no. There's a few. There's a couple. There's a couple. I got a couple. 98. 98. 98. 98. 98. 98. 98. 98. 98. 98. sang it the other day and I barely had to sing it and that made me feel like thank you man what would you guess my favorite is or one of my favorites come over I mean how do you what what is why did why did you know that because it is it's my favorite Jamaica yeah yeah I think it's one of the best songs ever ever written thank you ever written thank you I probably play that song once a week, every week.

55:45So when you look at your streams, most of those are me. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate that. That's one of my joints, though. Oh, my gosh, man. Like, all you need is that, and it looked like, actually, Sunday is my favorite day to play that. Yes. Yeah. And it's another intentional thing. I make records for your life. I don't want to just make it for the minute. I want you to be able to be like, I hoovered the floor playing this. I was in the bathtub to this. I was washing dishes to this because this is what I do and so I always want to make records that sit in that pocket for people I never want to just be the the hype, the pop, the whatever I want to make records that you're listening to the words and you're feeling what I felt when I wrote it yes what I love too is that you can listen to it with the family like you know you know you know sometimes some music you just have to this is me in the car by myself this is outside this is outside music yeah But yours is inside and outside music, you know, and I think that's beautiful.

56:44Thank you. Right. But now, if I'm just looking at the career, because I know we've only really dissected one song, but obviously you have multiple albums. Yeah. But I know that you're working on a book. Yeah. And the book is really how you've dealt with the music industry. Yeah. And really kept your sanity. Yes. So that is something that I see is incredibly challenging for all artists. And some of them are not able to keep their sanity. There's a time. So when you think back throughout your career thus far, because you're still early in your career. Thank you. When you think back, what was the moment where you felt like you were on the brink of losing it?

57:27Oh, goodness. I think maybe 2011, right before Thank You came out and all of me, like after Shine, I allowed myself to move in too many different directions. There were all these things that you're supposed to get, you're supposed to do, you're meant to be, you're supposed to be this by now and you're supposed to be that by now and this is what's supposed to be happening and this is how this is meant to be and why aren't you doing the thing? and it was like every millisecond of every day had one of those questions in it it got manic um for a while it was a couple of like my my usual responses lock you off switch out i'm not doing this you gotta go i gotta go i'm really gone peace out whatever you want to think of me i don't give I'm gone.

58:19And part of it was surviving. And the other half of it was, yeah, some of you didn't deserve my presence. You know, I have to go. This is crazy. Like, the fact that I let you speak to me after the way you spoke to me. You're talking about in the industry. In the industry. It was nuts, you know? Can you give an example? Because, for example, we had Cher Lloyd on the pod, and she was talking about, my God, she talked about how she was married, went to L.A. The record label told her. Don't be married. No, told her, you could stay married, but we want you to go get with Justin Bieber. Here is where he's going to be in the club, and we don't care that you're still married, but you get with Justin Bieber.

59:00I was like, I can't believe it. Yeah, pro-cho. So I can imagine, but when you think about, what's a moment where you just thought it was a ridiculous ask or a ridiculous request? Now, there wasn't so much ridiculous request that I feel like the industry is like a death by a thousand cuts. You know, like there was little inferences, like little digs, little moments, little pokes at what you shouldn't, shouldn't be doing, who you shouldn't, shouldn't be seeing. They'll talk to your boyfriend, and then he comes to you with some craziness. And then there's a singer, another person, another artist, and there's another producer, and then there's people closest to you.

59:41And it just all was just, it got nuts. I was very open, and I still am to a degree, but with bad discernment because, you know, we grow. And that was a process in itself that I had to figure out. I think everyone kept coming at the idea of keeping it real. The most valuable thing to her is she likes to act like she's regular. Right? She likes to be with her people. She likes to... So it was people. It was the people around me. It was the demands on my time, on what I should be paying for this, and the expectancy of me always being the one to take care of everything and everybody. And that's a common theme, right?

1:00:24And then, you know, while I've taken care of everything and everybody, In the very next room was a conversation going on about me and all of my business with people that I trusted and respected or people I trusted to hold me together. And nothing was being said to defend me. Nothing was being said to be like, well, hold on, give it perspective, in the same way that I would for them. And so I found that out and I was like, it's been fun. It's been fun. You can no longer reside here. you know and that left me by myself and having to figure it out again with another group of people but the point when I realized it wasn't even about them it was about me okay it's about the energy that I was giving to the world and whether I felt worthy of everything that I had worked for and why I kept just give if I did feel worthy why I just kept giving it away with no consequence with no boundary no anything to it yeah just kept throwing just giving to people it was wild but But it sounds like you didn't feel worthy.

1:01:25I didn't. Okay. And it was the 2017 break was like the final straw in that. For me, it was like my voice, my body wasn't working. Everything started slowing down. I get to a show and my voice don't want to sing. Like it literally was like, ah! And I was like, this is not what I'm used to. What is happening? And I made it through the show, but then after that I was like, all right. this is you know i'll go to the doctor and he's like you stressed but it's nothing here that should do that and so for me it was like okay i need to see a therapist it's it's internal it's gotta be so well and so it was just like understanding how to manage that how to how to not just throw away be a good steward with the blessings you know instead of feeling like i was obligated to everything and everyone because of my success it was like a it's like a double-edged sword you've done so well and we've carried you there so now you owe us and i felt i believed that as though i nothing i had done was because of myself or because of my own fortitude or because of me and god it was just like me god and now i owed 50 million 11 people who just decided that they were a part of this right so now right you know as though as though the paycheck wasn't enough as though the thank you wasn't enough although as though the i'm gonna to refer you wasn't enough it was like now i need you to forever be in debt to me and i was like i don't have to yes so what was the big lesson from the therapist that helped you to regain trust your life trust trust myself my confidence is one thing the trust is another the decisions you make aren't from just out the sky like it's here it's your core it's my it's the holy spirit it's the truth you know and I made those decisions and I made those decisions and I would catapult forward and then I get forward and then I start to um and are and overthink the scenarios and call in advice because you're supposed to call in you know somebody might know better than your spirit but at the time based on the way that at core I was raised right the family dynamics um based on the way I was raised socially, based on the way I came up, I'm supposed to always have a thing or a person other than myself to validate.

1:03:45Right? I had to knock that out. I had to knock that out with ferociousness and with niceness and with grace. I had to tell myself, it's okay. You did the right thing. It's a freak and it's a journey. You know, this stuff is a journey. Every layer you peel back is another version of where you've done it and you have to be like, okay, girl, it's okay.

1:04:38It's okay. being in the mix and being social. I'm literally just having the time of my life listening to music, listening to whatever they're playing. With yourself? With myself. And it was like, people had so many issues with that. It was just always the poking point. You're so quiet. You're so dead. Yes. And now I'm like, yes, I am. You okay? Have you ever been quiet? You should be quiet right now.

1:05:04Shh, stop talking. You know, like, get away from me. Go for that. Yes. You know? Yes. And I love it. I love because it gives me a chance to hear. It gives me a chance to be with myself clear up and down. I love it. I think that many people have an issue with silence. And it's because of, you know, the thoughts and the ideas that wrap around in their mind. Yeah. And I notice that also people have a tough time being quiet with others. Yeah. You know, what I love with a couple, and I've reached this point finally with Jill, is being quiet together. The dopest feeling in the world. Oh, my God. You don't have to fill the space.

1:05:46No. Let it be. Yes. Let me be in service to myself. Yes. And shut the fuck up. Yes. And pray about what's going on in your situation. Or listen to a megahertz frequency, quiet your mind, and go to sleep. Even if you are mindlessly scrolling, right? And I understand it's not the best thing to do, but even if I am sometimes, guaranteed 70 % of the time I have my headphones on with a frequency ranging from 4.32 to like natural frequency. Really? Just have a frequency playing? That's a good time. That's the best music. What does the frequency do? It just, it quiets the, it quiets my brain down a bit so that I, or even my, I feel it in my body too.

1:06:30Like it quiets my physical body down sometimes, especially when I've been moving from pillar to post. Like I'm having a heavy promo day. I'm talking to every version of news or whatnot. Afterwards I'll go and I have like my Buddhist bowl. Okay. And I play that. I hit it three times and just allow the sound to kind of like settle my heart. I recommend it to everybody. It's on YouTube. Go have at them. I take what everyone says and I try to apply it to a psychology and say, how does psychology work on this, right? But it makes sense because it sounds like what you're doing is you're regulating yourself.

1:07:02Self-regulation. Right, so it's self-regulation, which is a big issue that we have. But now one of the quick ways of regulation is co-regulation with someone else. And one area that I've never really heard you expand on, that I would love to spend a little bit of time on because we have a little bit of time. Let's see. Are these relationships? These are stellar relationships. Because can I say, you are great at keeping your relationships on the low. No, I don't talk about it. You don't talk about it? No, but I can say some things because I think it's important. I think it's important for people to understand me because I put so much of relationships in the songs.

1:07:44I just don't talk about it. I don't point names out. Yes. And I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's fair on whoever I'm dating for me to be like and this is the face to the name of this so everyone go have a time about that with them no like that's mad and that's I'll get that back I don't want that I heard you say something earlier you said that you are dating yeah so does that mean that you are dating in a in florals or just in words yes I am dating that's it that's what we got I just told you I don't talk about this stuff again like no So you're dating. Yeah. Actively. Yeah. So that means that then is it a green light if someone listening, watching said, oh, my gosh, this means that.

1:08:28He's like, can I match me? I can slide. Can I slide in the DMs? Yeah, yeah. Is that a green light to slide in? No, no. Please don't slide in my DMs. I trust God to lead. But the DMs is not where I ask him to send them. I do not respond to the DMs. Please don't. You don't? No. Do you know how many relationships? I know. I don't live in that world. I don't live in that world. My DMs are fun. Like, I have a lot of people that, like, hey, sexy, Estelle, my bell, I can be your American guy. It's a lot. And it's always like, yo, no, I'm straight. Straight? Okay. You want an introduction. That's what you want.

1:09:07Yeah, I'm a let me see. And I'll, like, read the energy and the person's vibe, you know. I do that with friends. I do that with people I meet. I'm a sacred space here. I don't like to just be, I'm here with everybody. No. Yeah. I do respect that. You have kept that. You're like, this is private, and you're not going to get this. No, this is for me. Yeah. I trust that. I'm cool about that. In the lyrics of Thank You, which, by the way, you performed at my book launch. I did. which I appreciate that. Way back, way back in the day. I had a great hairstyle. It was crazy. Oh, my gosh. The whole look was, it was excellent.

1:09:53He would feed us sometimes. But I wrote down the lyrics here. These tears I cry sure won't be the last. The pain inside which never seems to pass, never seems to pass me by, so I thank you, said I thank you, yes, I thank you, for making me a woman. And you know who wrote those lyrics? Akon. For the honest, it made no sense. At first, I had to get past the shock. Are you serious? I had to get past the shock that it was Akon. And then I was like, he has some wives. He understands. He understands women in a different way. Like, he understands women. Akon wrote this? Thank you for making me a woman.

1:10:36Akon wrote that. He wrote that record for a female artist. The label sent it to me like, this record you gotta sing it and i was just like no i don't want to sing this record again i'm very private but it felt like that was what i was going through on repeat with every man i had dated since maybe leaving london before leaving london like it was just like it was just the repeat of in different bodies in different scenarios there was another woman there was another scenario, there was cheating, there was trust issues, there was resentment, there was you're doing this and I'm not doing that issues.

1:11:15And it was just on repeat, so I felt like that's what it was going to be. This is what happens. And I was like, I don't want to sing this record because words mean things, okay? Yes. Words mean things, and I've got to go sing this record. And the guy I was with at the time was literally, that was what was happening. And I wasn't really aware. Crazy because he encouraged me to sing it. bananas but it was more about like he he felt like the label gonna drop me if i didn't and he didn't want to be out of a job or whatever it was happening and he used to work with me um in my band uh that's i feel like that's whatever and um so it was a lot like i didn't want to sing it i just felt like oh this is admitting the truth this is saying what's actually happening this is i'm not ready to for people to know me like that because then that would make me feel weak and that would make me feel like you out here getting cheated just like the rest of us you know ego you know a lot of that I sang it and I cried partly because I didn't want to sing it and partly because it fucking felt freeing to be able to say it say it yep and then everything came out after the fact when we broke up and so I had the song to go on tour and therapize with and every time I sang it I think I got halfway through it I would take a full mile jewelry and throw the shit down because I couldn't feel it.

1:12:38You know, I felt like I was numb after singing it for a while. Oh, my band were like, here she go. You got that one, you got that one. That ring is over there. But the feeling, I would have to walk off stage pretty much every time after I sang it because it was overwhelming. It was just like a... That's incredible. Yeah. And so I realized, okay, it's almost like every time I say it, every time you confess the truth, it comes out of you. The lie of it, you break it. It comes out of you. like something like you sweat it out right and then i got to a point where i done all the therapy and done things and got over it and i was like i'm not sad about singing this record anymore and literally in that space i start hearing a new orleans bounce version of it so now i sing thank you and i do it's a new orleans bounce and i'll be out here shaking my butt like what's up yeah it's a celebration now exactly it's like a yeah that was thank you for getting me through that since.

1:13:32So that was one relationship that led you to have, you carried that pain with you. It was one, like maybe I was 25. Were you in love? I thought I was. Back then, yeah. With that version, yeah. But y 'all, I was in it. And I'm a relationship girl. I'm like, we in it. We live together. We're like, we're in it when I'm in it. Back then. and I did too much you know I think about it I did too much and too much too early you know I think it was also because of well part of it was moving to the states you know like being in the states like and having to find family find people to be around oh because you were alone because that was just me it wasn't like anybody else I was like find a rock find an anchor and it was when you're the anchor Wherever you are is home.

1:14:28Wherever I am is home. Yes. And that's the baseline. Yes. Didn't know it then. Yes. You know? So when you think back to the relationships that you've had throughout your life, do you feel like you have ever been loved? Yes. Yeah, I have. Okay. I have. I wouldn't allow it with one guy. And that caused some things. We were both children, brothers and mine. It wasn't like we were like 28 and 30 and had life experience. We were in his early 20s. But to him, loving me meant, okay, do your career, but now I want to have a kid. And I was like, no. No, that can't happen, you know? Because of your career.

1:15:13Well, because of the examples I'd seen. My mom worked a lot when we were growing up, a lot. And I always put in my mind I want to be able to, A, afford them without having to like work as hard as she worked. And I want to put no extra on her by having baby and then being like, well, I'm going to go do my career. Here go the baby. I didn't want to do that to my mom, you know. But he was very, you know, I didn't see him as an option of the father. Like, sir, you barely have it together. How will we raise this child? Like, you can't take care of the baby. My mom's going to have to take care of the baby.

1:15:50No, you know. And so that was a breaking point. You know, and I was like, you know, but I understand his version of love at the time and what it meant. And it was for me at that time, it was great until it wasn't. Yes. You know, I think that that is very mature. Now. Very mature to say, you know, this situation is not right to bring a child into it. You know, I talk about this with a lot of guests, you know, this whole idea of conscious parenting. And that begins before you have the child. Way before. Right. And you were there in that zone. But being a mother, is that something that you've wanted?

1:16:31I have and I do still. I'm open to it however it comes, whether next year I have a child or whether I adopt. And I'm so grateful to be alive in a time where you can have a surrogate. There's ways, you know. but I also think I've been a mother to so many people, so many kids my whole life it's, you know I think you get it in different ways but for you to you're open to it are you open to it but the prerequisite is you want to have a partner first yes, for sure I don't want to do this on my own at all my mom is still a resource for me my dad is still the person I call you know what I mean like so give me context right right and i would like to be that with a partner i don't want to do that by myself right it's interesting you you talking about that how you still rely on them i could see now the void you know that that that was put in your life when you're yeah when you're nanbass yeah yeah because i would imagine she was that too you were calling on her well she sang me happy birthday was the last time we saw each other on my phone and i told you i bawled for maybe half the day it's maybe a year before she passed i'll cry right now um but there was a like i just think about her entire experience and i wanted more for her i wanted her to have more i wanted her to see and but this was the journey she chose she was brave man she was really brave you know she was one of the ones you know um and I think about that and I think about the women that she came from and I think about my life and I think about the fact that I am her boldest dream I lived and I live in a whole nother country like she did I built community like she did like my granny would go and fix curtains in people's houses when they first came over and lay carpet and lay floors for people that couldn't call the handyman because they weren't going to them because they was black.

1:18:43So my grandma knew how to do some things, and she would go and help other women build their homes. And, you know, I'm living the things that I know she saw for herself that she wasn't able to do, you know? And I just think to myself, that's a blessing. That's a wild blessing to even, you know? So I'm happy about it. I'm just like, every time I think about that, I think to myself, So there's no version of me that I should ever not trust. There's no version of me that needs to play small. There's no version of me that needs to entertain thoughts of mediocrity because she ain't go through all of that for me to do this.

1:19:22No. I get chills thinking about her because I think when you say you are her wildest dream, it's almost like you're beyond her wildest dream yeah she she would be like how is how is she doing like i broke my foot maybe a couple years ago and she and she had alzheimer's intervention back when she was leaving us and my mama told her and my mom was like you know she asks about your foot every other week you know they can't remember a short term and she asks about your foot every other week like how's your foot doing how's your back how's everything working with your with your body I was like why does she know that why does she remember this yeah like why is this a thing and it just is a thing in your mind like don't forget who you are where you came from and that somebody loves you and will love you for eternity the spirit is with you you know so yeah I'm crying again sorry but it really is that and so like not every decision is from that but that's part of the confirmation of trusting myself.

1:20:27Yes. You know? Yes. Yeah. It's profound. That's going to stay with me. Yeah. You know what's going to stay with me too with what you just said is that it's with you forever. Yeah. Yeah. She is. She never leaves me. Like, she'll pull up on me in a second. Yes. I have a beautiful garden at my home and it's part of my personal ritual and part of my thing. I pray for a gorgeous garden because I like spending time. I'm an earth sign. I like being in the trees. And when she was leaving, maybe three days before she really left, it was like a butterfly came and almost hit me in the head. A big one. It was like huge.

1:21:05I thought it was a bird. And I was like, what the fuck was this? Like I freaked out. And then I got still and I was like, she's leaving. I was like, she's going to go. I spent a few more minutes out there. And then my mom calls like two days later. Like she's leaving us. She's leaving us. So I was like, she already left. She had a body. She got out of the body. She already left. My mom was like, you know, my mom was grieving and having a time. And so when she came down, when we all came to the realization that she was gone, I go out the next day and I have a plant that my mom had got me for my birthday.

1:21:41It's a white birds of paradise. And this thing has not bloomed since we bought it maybe four years ago. That thing had two white blooms on it. just overnight. Two white blooms just popped out of the birds of paradise. I was just like, well, let's just let me know that they're here with me. Like, these are two ancestors that just popped up and said, like, hi, this is why you got that plant. That thing hadn't bloomed for four years in this weekend, in this period of time, and it literally lasted for three days, and then they went. I was just like, okay, that was just her letting me know. You know, your faith, I find it be so interesting because you have faith.

1:22:28You believe in God, but spiritually you're connected. So it's interesting because when I hear a lot of people talk, it's like, I'm religious. No, no, I'm spiritual. You know, but you believe in all of it. And not to make it frivolous for anybody who has their distinct beliefs. Like, you know, the higher being, the great I am made it all. He knew that we were going to be diverse humans and a very diverse species. And he gave us various different ways to get to him. So use it. Use it. See what works for you. You know, don't vilify one to say another. This is the best way. We don't have to have a best.

1:23:08We just have a way to have to have a way to get to it. Yes. To it. Yes. That's my belief. So get to it. Is this what guides your belief around treating all people equal? Because, you know, as I said, my boys know you from American Boy, but they know you from something else. Do you know what's the something else? Garnet. You're a Garnet. Yes. Oh, my gosh. They flipped out, too. Come make it up. This is the one that I expect people to know me from, but also I know that Fortnite did a good job of remaking American Boy, and kids are like, that's the Chuck Junk song. I'm like, all right, you guys. But yeah, Garnet, Stevens Universe.

1:23:47Yeah. I mean, and what I didn't realize, because I wasn't watching, right? But my boys were watching. Yeah. Right. But I didn't realize how it leans into advocating and supporting being true, I would say, an ally show to the LGBTQ plus community. Man, I, it's the, one of the honors of my life. So when Steven Universe comes along, I'm beating my team up. I need a voiceover because people tell me the way I speak is great. I'm beating them up. And I remember they were like, oh, why do you want a voiceover? Go make a song. I'm like, I want to do more things. I want to spread out. Yes. And they're like, all right.

1:24:27So my agent finds me, finds me, Stevie Universe. And she comes and she's like, this is a cartoon. It's not much money. And I'm like, what's it about? What's the story? she's like well it's this is you play the big sister of the this group of aliens and it's like let me the thing let me read it so i read it and it's about these this big sister i was like well i can relate to that definitely a big sister thousands of thousands of sisters and brothers yes i understand that and then i'm looking at it and i'm like the head the hair the thing so i had this dream one time i had this song called freak and i'm trying to think of what the video is going to be because I write all my videos.

1:25:08Side note, my wife's favorite song of yours. Okay. When we play that song, she starts dancing and my sons are like, uh. What is going on? Yes, mom! That's more of an outside song. That's an outside song. No, don't play that in the house. Don't play that in the house. Play it in the car. So the first conversation I have with Rebecca, she's like, you know, I'm a big fan of your music. The song Freak, the video you had and I'm just like, like I'm having all these like oh this came from somewhere she's like i drew it based off of that because it felt so strong and so well you know and purple because you know but she had to have on pants i was like of course she had to have on pants in the video i'm in a black suit and like almost like a tribute the video is almost like a tribute to missy's she's a bitch yes i didn't none of us knew the trajectory was going to take yeah i just knew it was like these crystal gems from space we're taking care of this little boy on earth and as it starts to unfold and i'm not a good watcher of my work I don't go back and look at it and, you know, I don't do that.

1:26:06I just put it in the wild and let it be. And we do about four to five seasons of this show. And then I start going to the cons. And I'm humbled at every turn. I didn't know. It's amazing. I mean, I've never read about a show quite like it. Nothing like it. Nothing like it. Nothing like it. Nothing like it. The creators were real clear about their intentions with it. The kids kept saying, like, why is Garnet a black woman? No, why is Garnet black? Right. They said, well, she's black because why not? Because why not? So every other thing in power, well, that's the strongest thing is white and male.

1:26:50Why not? Why not? And I said, and this is why I'm on the show. I said, because why not? Why not? That's your career. Why not? Why not? Why not? Talk about, like, there's no version of not. Why is allyship so important to you? Because we're humans, man. I don't get to tell you how you should love, feel about yourself, feel about anybody else in the same way you don't get to tell me that. You know? I don't understand judging people based off of fear. I don't understand telling people they can't live a life because you're scared of what that life looks like. everybody should have that barometer. Everybody should work to have that barometer of trust and decency in themselves.

1:27:40And if you have that and you can see it for yourself, you should be able to see it for somebody else. If you can't see it for somebody else, that means you don't have it for yourself. So that's a you thing. That's a real, go figure yourself out. I don't think you hate, I just think you have issues with yourself. Yes, yeah, it begins and ends with you. Yeah, that's so, my thing is just like, well, I love the world. You know, on the, and I just have to say this, on the show in particular, what I didn't realize is that, all right, so you may know this. I'm not sure if you know this. Between 2017 and 2019, there was a 222 % increase in the number of LGBTQ plus characters in new series that have come out.

1:28:23Right. And I think Steven Universe has played a major role in this. and that Rebecca, I didn't realize, she's a non-binary bisexual showrunner. So one of the few. One of the few. And that Steven Universe had over 40 LGBTQ characters, including the only asexual character. Look, she was a visionary. She is, not was. She is. And she's so, she's bold and she's clear. And when I tell you the gentlest soul you will ever meet, like she barely speaks. Rebecca Sugar Rebecca Sugar is like you have to be like say that louder say that again like what like she's very gentle but she's very intentional yes you know and like I'm inspired by people like that it's joyful like I'm honored it's absolutely incredible yeah absolutely incredible give her our Emmys yeah I mean I think it I think it will come so last topic is quick ones yeah is I know you had some wild stories.

1:29:30Can I tell you an inside wild story that I know you have? What, tell me. This is not putting you on blast, but this will be good, is that when you were at the book launch, at my book launch way back in the day, we got a car for you. Yeah, what happened? Did I take the car? Did I do extra things with it? Did I go crazy? Did I keep going? Can I tell you? Probably, I kept going. I was like, Estelle is a rock star. What did I do? Wild night, huh? No, no. It wasn't a wild night. No. Where did the bill come in at is the question. Okay. I'm so sorry to talk. Can I tell you exactly where the bill came in?

1:30:06The bill was supposed to be like 500 US. Oh, no. It was more? The bill came in at over 3 ,000. What? Yes. No, no, no. This is what you did. Wait. Where did I go? Tell me the thing. This is what you did. So we were on the phone. So they called because we were like, okay, it's got to be 500. It's a little bit more. so we're going to call. The fact that they were calling, I was like, oh, man, this is going to be a problem. No, no, no, no, no. This is good. This is good. This is good. So they call and they said, so, you know, you know, Mrs. Estelle, you know, she had the car for a little while. And I said, where did she go?

1:30:40Like, what happened? And they said, well, you know, she went, after she left the event, you know, she went to this place, then she went to this place, and then she went to this party, and then she went to this place. And I was like. I was probably outside. I cannot deny the allegations. I was probably outside. I'm not being the allegations on that one. But you taught me you know how to party, miss. I do. I did. Like, you did? You stopped it? I stopped. Yeah. Did you? Yeah, you can't do that for your whole life. All right. So you were official. You were officially. I was having fun. Like, I remember that era.

1:31:11I was having a lot of fun. And I'm sorry again for like. No, no, no, no. Like, I apologize. I had a good time. Thank you. Thank you so much. But can I say. It's a night out. You didn't even try. You came through on just the strength to do the book launch, right? Yeah. But I have to ask then because you had some wild moments. Yeah, I did. If you think about the wildest moment. Okay, I'll go over you. I had a trip. I had to go do some shows. And I'm booked to perform in Lebanon, Cannes, and San Tropez. It's like a week full of gigs. So I go to Lebanon and we do this gig and it ends up being on top of a rooftop of this building, this beautiful building, but next door there's like bullet riddled.

1:31:55I'm really like, I haven't rebuilt it. That looks a little fresh. Whatever. Okay. We keep going. Our flight gets canceled from, we fly to Paris. Our flight gets canceled. We have to get on a train. We get on a train to the Saint-Drapez. I get off the train at Saint-Drapez. It's like one in the morning. I'm on stage at two. And it's like a club. And I did a whole 20-minute set with dancers. We knock it out. I drink maybe half a bottle of vodka that night with some Hennessy. No sleep. No sleep. Puke and rally next morning. Me and my friend are out on the can. We're on the seat front. It's a wild 48 hours.

1:32:39We get to Saint-Tropez, and I have to perform again. I'm on stage, and they're like, yeah, so we have a couple breakers to the club. And, you know, he likes to perform with the people. I was like, hmm? I was like, scroll back, scroll back. And I see this man come walking through in a tankini and some slides. A tankini? Like Ali G. Oh, that's a tankini. A tankini. Okay. Ali G. Yeah. And he has on like daisy slides. Slides like a little baby heel. And it's the slides. And I'm just looking at him going like, dog. Yeah. Anyhow, I'm on stage and I'm performing and whatnot. And then I look to my right and this man has joined me for American Boy.

1:33:18You said it's a duet. At this point, he's like, so this was the part. He just comes up there and he's like, get in it. And I'm just like, all right, we'll take it. I should have it. But that was a wild story. A comedy of errors leading up to me and the tankini man singing the microphone. Singing, yeah. In Saint-Tropez at 2 in the morning. But you know what? I absolutely love that. Yeah, it's a good time. Yeah, it's a great time. So when I be outside partying. That's why. That's why. You know, also, too, is I realized that the energy level, though, that it takes to be able to do that back to back.

1:33:51Like the stamina is ridiculous. That's why I can't point no more. Because I'd like to be able to do it forever. Yeah. So at some point you have to like temper that. Yeah. Yeah. Slow down. Your body deserves to be here. Yes. You know, yeah. Fair enough. Those were, that's the wildest. Yeah. What about happiest moment in your career?

1:34:13Jeez, I'm waiting for it. I've had a lot of happy times. I've had a lot. but I think the best is yet to come. I do believe that. I don't want to be like, that's it! Because I feel like every time I say that's it, God tops it. There's moments of extreme gratification. Doing a Comic Con and seeing a little girl or a little boy or someone who identifies as they coming up to me being like, thank you, I see myself. Thank you for voicing something that I can see myself in. And then I think about my nieces hearing my voice and being like, that's Auntie. Yes. That's Auntie Stale. Those moments make me feel like you're on the right track.

1:34:49I feel warm inside when those moments happen. And then there's winning a Grammy, and then there's winning a MOBO, and then there's winning a MOBO two more times. And I sit in those moments, and I'm just like, you know, I'm straight. I can be quiet in a hotel room after a gig. I don't need to be outside. Yeah, look at that. Go home. Listen to some frequency. Listen to some frequency. I guarantee you, if you see me with my headphones out in public, I am somewhere else. All right, so that was happiest is yet to come, but you have many happy moments. Yeah. What about, so far, the proudest moment in your career?

1:35:26This new album. Okay. This new album is my proudest moment. It took so much for me to be content or to be happy with the human I am today. It took so much. I'm so proud of myself. Like, ooh, you got me crying again. I am so proud of her. like girl you did it you're doing it you know this version of you that you get to really tell the world you are and stand on it and live it and sing it and dance it like oh it took me so long to get here and i'm so proud of myself like and i know wherever i go from here on wherever it goes next i'm gonna be proud of that too but to be able to emotionally mentally physically push through all of that and it was heavy it was like walking through thick molasses to now be on the other side of the molasses and be like oh I swim in this like water that's easy this is me you know what I should have known but I didn't I think because you wear such a smile on your face is I didn't realize how much pain you had to go through in your career I mean I should have assumed it But I mean, when you're living your dream, per everybody else's version of the dream, you don't you almost don't feel worthy of or you don't feel worthy of any sympathy or why should anyone care that I don't feel like singing today?

1:36:54Why should anyone care that? Because you've got the dream you asked for. You've got the thing you worked for. And my buddy was telling me sometimes you should probably not sing today. You're going to go out there and give bad vibes. You're going to go out there and damage yourself. Your head hurts. You didn't eat today. You didn't feed me today. You've been working out for 700 days in a row and your body is literally doing this. You don't think you deserve a massage with someone to help you unfurl it? How are you out there and your body's doing this? And you don't think you deserve that? You don't think that that's part of...

1:37:32One of my team members always says to me, You're an athlete. Start treating yourself like you care about your body. that was a ping, that was a thing. And it was like, I'm an athlete. Yeah, I'm an athlete. Hold on. Right. Let me change. Let me change some things. So this album, this is the first, this is fully you. This is me, baby. We're meeting 100 % Estelle on this. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good time. All right. It's a good time. This is good. This is good. I know. That just reminded me, this is a personal question, because I was a huge, and to this day, huge De La Soul fan. De La Soul was actually, that's where, in New York, where I lived.

1:38:12Yeah. They were the first piece of mine that I bought in my life. Three is a magic number. Yes. I mean, just one of my first two. Yeah. And I think that you were that chorus, that hook on memory of. Yeah. So remember the guy that I told you I was in a relationship with when I was like 25? And I just didn't know what it was and where. it was that was me just reminding myself to not go down that road again never go down that road again in memory of yeah i love the memory of us we're good though i remember you now and i wrote that with pete rock in a publishing studio channel good let it go and um then pause had hit me like hey we're working on our album and we'd like to do a record with you and i was like whole soul and i'd met maceo a while ago so i knew him but it wasn't the level where i could just be like do you need any records so when pause hit me i was like oh and so i called my manager i was like have we written anything he's like the pete rock record send them that i was like okay so send him the record and he was like essentially damn like we're gonna we're gonna do this don't we know p we got you just send us a session it's like okay and then they sent it back when i told you the honor i sat there in tears like i was 11 that was my first piece of vinyl i bought for 50p someone left at the you know the school fairs they do like everyone brings in their stuff someone had that pink and yellow vinyl at the school fair and i bought that like it's so pretty took it home my uncle was like you don't know nothing about this i was like yes i do i didn't but listen to it and like saturday three years of magic all that mind blown so to be on their last record and to be the single and to have spent that time with them shooting a video and listen to dave and and they were both talking maceo and dave were talking to me about relationships and and then pos chimed in and i'm sitting in the car with three ogs telling me men talking to me about their experiences in love while I shoot a video where I play the bride.

1:40:29I was like, God, you can't make this stuff up. No, because when I read that that was the first piece of vinyl, like that's the first album that you bought, and then to then think, oh, my God, but didn't I see her sitting in that car in the memory of video? Three is a magic note. Yeah, I was like, you can't make it up. This is divinely guided, divinely orchestrated. You can't make it up. Cannot. Estelle we talked about many many things many many many many many many many many things is there anything that we have not yet talked about that you want to talk about no I just thank you for this this opportunity but I'm proud of you I loved again the flip happened you came here you've been doing it we crossed each other we said see you okay I'm going to London now I have a book come in and that I feel like is going to give people tidbits of how to do it so I want people to understand that the book is not going to be salacious it's not going to be one of those things I'm not it's not a tell all I don't believe in that if you I'm not telling that get out of here that's not what we do no but I am going to explain how I've lived my life and how I've gone to where I've gotten to and I want people to take from that what you will and discard the rest like use it as a reference book don't don't take it on like well it's del said try it your your fingerprint is your fingerprint and my fingerprint is mine yeah no if it works for you great if it doesn't okay you know but here's so the books come in take that for what it is and you know have fun with it and trust yourself what's the title of the book do you know it's not there yet it's not there yet all right okay yeah i think it should be called i think it should be called thank you because I think that you live in gratitude and even in this conversation what I've noticed is that you have gone through the thing you're appreciative of whatever the thing was you pull a lesson so you're showing gratitude and that ultimately is what also allows us to have the self-worth that you have to be able to stand in our silence and our independence and so That's true.

1:42:46Yeah. That's a good, yeah. I mean, here's my, here's the thing. I got to talk to the book. Yeah, say that. Think about it. Think about it. You think about it. All right, so then there is a last question that everyone gets. So you've had some incredible conversations throughout your life. Yeah. When you think back to the most memorable, who was it with? What'd you talk about? What'd you learn? Red Temperton. It always comes to mind. Red Temperton. I was maybe 23 Rob Temperton wrote on Thriller with Quincy Jones and Be It and Off the Wall like for Michael Jackson this is that guy I was mad about everything and everyone because it felt like the world's biggest uphill battle trying to release the 18th day I'm already signed, what's the problem?

1:43:34it felt like every step of the way of shooting for the stars there would be someone to tell me why I couldn't do it and he says you're going to go far so how do you deal with people when they're just complete like they're telling you no he said this is musical chairs he said so you know um learn from people don't burn the bridges he said because they'll move to a different seat and they might be less hot and that's been the truest thing ever because there have been so many people that i've met and because i'm consistent the love and the The respect I get when I walk in the room is wildly different to maybe another artist who was riding high and doing whatever at the time.

1:44:19And I was grateful to listen. I'm grateful I got to sit in 10 minutes of him and his wife Kathy's time. A few hours and they stay in touch over the years. And they would always make sure to give me good nuggets. Like, you okay? Yeah, right. Come around for dinner. You know, like just and I was moving around. So I didn't get to do too much. but those moments meant like, I hold on to those. It's like, don't be a dick where you don't have to be a dick. You know, just keep it level. It's okay. It'll be all right, you know? And that's been like a stay, keep it level. Be okay. And it's been more than okay.

1:44:58It has been. You know, when I think about your career, just to even, you know, summarize it all for me, is what I find to be so interesting about you is that you are one of the very few people who are not just famous around the world, but in particular in the U.S. and the U.K. It's a rarity to be famous and popular because fame is, in my opinion, people are aware of who you are. You're recognizable. Oh, that's Estelle, right? But popularity requires people to like you. And what I notice is that you're not just liked by all, but you're liked in particular by artists, by your peers. I like the artists.

1:45:47But your peers, I could see that they love you. When I hear people talk, it's like it's always positive. It's always positive about you. And then not only do you have that popularity and fame, but then through the age range, right? It's like my parents, right, where I can't say their age because they would reach out and strangle me right now. But trust me, they're older than me. Yeah. You know, down to my sons who are 11, 14. The whole range. I'm in between. It's like we all know you, but we all like you at the same time. Makes me happy. You know, that's a blessing. You lived a blessed life. And the best end note is you have made your grandmother proud.

1:46:33So proud. Yes. Yeah, me crying again at the end. Don't do that. This is going to be a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So thank you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. What did you think? All right. You know, I've known Estelle 15 years. Like, oh, 15 years. Yeah, 15 years. And I think I learned more about her in this conversation than I did across the 15 years. I know that she's been reluctant to share private details about her life, and namely the pain that she's gone through being a part of the industry. I didn't realize how impactful her grandmother has been throughout her life that I just didn't realize.

1:47:21You can create your own path in life. She created this path when she was told no many, many times, not just in the U.K., but also when she got to the U.S., and how she made a way. Without question, a big inflection point in Estelle's life was Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles with Kanye West. I strongly believe it was Estelle's confidence and building the respect in London that is what allowed her to get the invite to the studio, which then she eventually meets John Legend. John Legend eventually signs her and co-writes American Boy, which is one of the most popular songs ever penned. The lesson for all of us is to have that self-confidence, to step into situations and make the ask.

1:48:14You will never get unless you ask. And Estella is a prime example of that. And when I heard that, and I think this is why it hit so big in the U.S., I think American boys were always associated with the all-American boy, which the all-American boy was normally, you live in California, you are white, you're not black, you are six foot five. But here Estelle was saying, you know, American boy, and she was talking about baggy pants. And she was talking about someone who I knew. She was talking about this guy right there. Like, really, this is who she described. That is not what the American boy was.

1:49:00You know, so for her to sing that song, it was empowering, actually.

1:49:10Thank you.