Gabor Mate: Your Partner Choice Reveals Everything! The Hidden Cost of Ignoring Trauma

29:42We evolved as communal creatures. We could not have evolved or survived as a species otherwise. And so our standing in the community and our related community was always very important. And what's interesting though is if you look at ancient cultures or Aboriginal cultures, status wasn't defined, for example, the way it's defined in our society. In our society it's defined in terms of possession and power, whereas in more original societies it was defined by how giving you were and how present you were for the others. So it wasn't about individual status in competition with others. It was based on your status as a contributor to the community.

30:33It's a very different idea of status. But if that's what he means, I totally agree. Okay, then that's important as well. Yeah. Going back to stress and almost the study in authenticity. So with stress, there are various forms of stress. What are the different forms? Well, so we can look at stress on three different levels. One is the physiological stress response, which is when you're under stress, under some kind of threat, something of a challenge, stuff will happen in your body. Your hypothalamus, which is the master gland in the brain, We release certain trigger chemicals that will alert the pituitary gland at the base of your skull.

31:23That will then send messages to your adrenal gland. And the adrenal gland will then release the stress hormones, cortisol, and adrenaline. So that's called the HPA axis, hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis. Just straightforward physiology, releasing and ending, culminating in the release of stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol, which are good for you. Because adrenaline gives you more energy, speed, strength. And cortisol gives you more sugar so that you have more energy to escape or to fight back. Okay. Good stuff. Okay. In the short term. In the long term, those same hormones, if continually released, will make you ill and even kill you.

32:10So that adrenaline will elevate your blood pressure, constrict your blood vessels, cause heart disease, strokes, and so on. Cortisol will thin your bones, undermine your immune system, ulcerate your intestines, put fat on your belly so you're more likely to get heart disease, makes you depressed. And I think I mentioned suppressed immunity and other factors. So the stress hormones in the short term, necessary for survival. Chronic stress, however, creates illness, inflammation, and death. No. That's the physiological stress response. Then there's the external stressor, whatever triggers the stress.

33:00So if a saber-toothed tiger were about to lope into the studio right now, you and I would both be stressed. Right. I would jump in front of you. I would block it for you. Well, thank you. I'm very grateful for that. But, you know, good thing we should be stressed because we want to be able to fight or to a kick, you know? Right. So, but that's the external stressor, whatever that is. But there's no universal stressor. It depends on who's being stressed. And that's because there's a third aspect of stress called the processing apparatus. And that's you and I with our particular histories and interpretations and templates.

33:45So, for example, you might say the loss of a job is stressful. It could be for one person who believes that their worth and their livelihood depends on that job. For another person, I mean, I lost a job once and it became the greatest opportunity. So it didn't end up being so stressful. So there's the physiological stress response, there's the external stressor, but then there There is the interpreting apparatus, which is our programmed view of ourselves and our unconscious beliefs of ourselves and the world. That's the processing apparatus. So that's what happens in stress. Now there's certain triggers that set off the stress response and they're so prevalent in our society.

34:39uncertainty, lack of information, conflict, and loss of control. And these factors are predictable to release the stress response in people chronically. So for example, you can take rats. There's an interesting rat experiment. They yoke together two pairs of rats. Am I talking too much? No, not at all. Okay. I'm in this. I'm in this. You work together pairs of rats. You wire their tails with electrical wire, and you shock them with electricity. But one of them has a paw free. They can turn a lever that'll turn off the electrical shock. But the other one does not. But they both receive the same shock for the same length of time.

35:35Now the one that's got the freedom to turn the lever off has got less of a stress response than the one who didn't have that freedom, even though the shock they received was exactly the same power and duration, just because of the lack of freedom. So lots of control. Now in this society, that's just endemic. and I would imagine in a relationship, especially with regard to the external, is it that your partner acts as either a magnifier or a shield to the stress? Well, that's the whole point. They can be one or the other. And even variably, because like in my relationship, sometimes we act as a magnifier for use of stress.

36:27And sometimes we act as a shield, depending on what state we're in and the state of our relationship. So yeah, it can work both ways. Both ways, yeah. And ideally, as the relationship proceeds, you learn how to be each other's shields. And it's kind of like the lightning rods rather than a magnifier. Yes. But certainly, with my wife and I, there have been times when we just stressed each other to the max. It goes back to what we were saying in terms of your partner being such a critical decision. And I'm glad you said the most important because truly my gut tells me it's the most important decision of our life.

37:11And you have literally partners when you choose poor partners or allow yourself to be chosen. If your partner is acting as a magnifier, your partner is killing you. Yeah. Well, your partner is not killing you. you're killing yourself by being with that partner. You're not a victim or you don't need to perceive yourself as a victim. And again, the question is how much latitude is there for growth in the relationship? And so relationships can be the most powerful spiritual work you ever do in terms of becoming truly yourself and truly connected to the world. Unfortunately, again, in all culture there's just not enough support.

37:56for healthy relationships. So that brings up kindness. What are the benefits of kindness, especially with regard to your partner and in a relationship? Because physically there must be benefits. Well, just imagine yourself in a state of rage. Have you been in a state of rage? Yes. What's happening in your body when you're in that state? I could hardly breathe. Okay. I feel flooded. Yeah. Sweating. Yeah. Can't focus. A lot of tension. A lot of tension. Yeah. Bobby, your heart's beating fast? Yes. Okay, now, have you ever felt real kindness towards somebody? Yes. What's in your body then? It's the opposite of all of those.

38:48It's calm. It's calmness, relaxation. Relaxed. There's peace. Peace. Yeah. So that's the answer to your question. Like, that kindness actually is not a gift you're giving to the other, although it is, it's a gift you're giving to yourself. Because you're suffused with positive hormones, oxytocin, which is a love hormone, endorphins, which are the pleasure hormones, your body relaxes, your blood pressure is lower, your belly is in a state of warmth, you know. So now you can't pretend kindness, but see a theme in our conversation as you laid it out right from the beginning is the body. And the point is it all happens in the body.

39:46so whether you're in a state of hostility or in a state of kindness they all have their bodily manifestations and the kindness is a lot healthier for you it's the eternal struggle most of us face building a fulfilling successful career but also being an available partner parent and friend it never lets up and sometimes compounds to an overwhelming feeling of being stretched too thin. But there are ways to ease the load, and today I want to introduce you to one of them, who is also a sponsor of this podcast. Fiverr is the marketplace where you'll find thousands of highly skilled freelancers ready to take on your business needs.

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41:57You mentioned that's one need, attachment. But if we go back to attachment styles, what I notice is this is probably one of the most popular topics right now. And I think it's for good. But many of us still misinterpret exactly what attachment styles mean, but more so how they impact us as adults. So how does our attachment as a child show up when we're an adult in adult relationships? Yeah. These are based on studies that have been done with young children and their mothers in a laboratory situation. What happens is you bring a one-year-old into a room with the mom and then the mom will maybe be there for a while and then leave and then there might be a stranger in the room, the examiner.

42:53The mother comes back. This is just one example. So, then in a secure attachment, the infant will have been upset by the mother's leaving, but when the mother comes back in, the infant comes to the mother, is soothed by the mother, is easily soothed, and becomes calm again and starts playing again. That's a secure attachment. Then there's various forms of insecure attachments. So for example, the mother comes back in and the child won't go to the mother to be soothed, or will go to the mother but can't be sued by them. What's really frightening here and interesting here is there's something called the adult attachment into you where you ask an adult about their attachment relationship with their parents.

43:41You could do this adult attachment into you with this adult before they have children, and the result of that will predict how the yet unconceived child will behave on this attachment experiment three years later. Goodness. Because it's passed on generationally. Now, the example that I gave for myself, and I opened the first chapter of the myth of normal with this anecdote, and I've often told it, of me arriving home from a speaking trip, and my wife's supposed to be at the airport to pick me up, and I get a text saying I haven't left home yet. and I go into a total rage. And when I go home, I take a taxi home and I'm not even looking at her.

44:27This is at the tender young age of 72, okay? And after 40 years of marriage, you know? And so what that's about, so I'm feeling a deep sense of abandonment. Now, nobody abandoned me. My wife's an artist. She's in the studio. She's painting. and when she's in her painting, the world disappears, including me. I've only known this for four decades. But what's triggered in me is a deep sense of abandonment because when I was 11 months old, my mother did abandon me. Not that she abandoned me. She gave me to a stranger to save my life during the war in Hungary and didn't see her for five or six weeks.

45:15And when I saw her again, I wouldn't even look at her. which is called an avoidant attachment. It's a defensive response of the organism, the message being, I was so hurt when you abandoned me that I will not make myself so vulnerable ever again, so I won't reconnect with you. 71 years later, the same reaction gets triggered in me, and I come in the house, won't even look at my wife, and barely even talking to her until she finally said after 24 hours of this cold shoulder, she said, knock it off already. So I knocked it off. You know, just step forward because years ago, it might have taken me days to knock it off.

46:01So that's an example of an early template. This is called implicit or unconscious memory. I have no recollection of my mother giving me to a stranger because at 11 months of age, the circuits of explicit recall memory aren't even online yet. But the circuits of emotional memory, of the emotional impact of experiences, is in me already in the third trimester of pregnancy. So deep in my nervous system is wired a sense of abandonment. When something vaguely resembling that occurs in the present, I'm triggered, and I'm not a 72-year-old internationally known author and speaker, physician, all that.

46:47I'm a one-year-old infant. One-year-old, yes, yes. So this is how early attachment templates then show up and vex adult relationships. And it's almost universal. Here, Gabor shares a transparent story about his own relationship. His instinct was to withdraw. when tension arose. The key lesson here is the importance of communication. Instead of retreating, Gabor acknowledges that sharing his feelings, like the sense of abandonment he felt when Ray didn't pick him up, could have led to a simple conversation and resolution. Awareness of your own patterns and being willing to communicate vulnerably can dissolve tension and foster deeper connection in a relationship.

47:37According to the research I saw here is that 30 to 40 percent of adults have either, you know, have a non-secure attachment, avoidant or anxious. So what can we do as adults if we fall within that group to become secure, to earn a secure attachment? Well, again, it's a matter of awareness. And by the way, I've seen those same kind of figures, and I think they're underestimates. I think that much higher percentage of relationships, if you actually look at it, carry some degree of insecurity, which is why there's so many problems in marriages. But what do you do? For decades, my response has been if this tension in the relationship is to withdraw.

48:30Hers is an anxious attachment. so she comes in and tries to bring me on board. So what if I communicated? What if I said to her, look, my wife's name is Ray. When you didn't pick me up at the airport, I had this deep sense of abandonment. Then she might say, oh, I'm so sorry, but you know what, I was in the studio, and you know what happens when I'm in the studio. That would have been the end of it. So if one thing, communicate. Go and just stew in your own troubled attachment brew. Communicate it, number one. Number two, when you look at it retrospectively, obviously, I knew it even at the time, my reaction as I could recognize was way out of proportion to the stimulus.

49:23Yes. Okay. So look at your reaction and see how proportionate it is to what actually happened. And when it's out of proportion, it's always about the past. What about if you are not yet in a relationship, but you've noticed that you are anxious or avoidant and you want to try to become secure before entering a relationship? What are things that you could do. Well, then you need help. I mean, again, recognition is the key. A lot of people don't recognize it. They just bring this anxiety into the relationship, and then they wonder why the relationship doesn't work. So those that are fortunate enough to have generated some self-awareness, they can get help.

50:12But the other thing they can do is when they do meet somebody, They can say, look, I've got to tell you about something about myself. I'm not proud of it, but I'm also not ashamed of it. I tend to have certain abandonment fears. I'm not going to make that your responsibility, because it isn't, but I just want you to know that about me. Now, most partners, some partners say, okay, well, thanks very much for telling me and goodbye. But most of the time, that's not what happens. most of the time the other person appreciates the vulnerability and the openness and the desire for intimacy and they'll share something about themselves yes I think that's what happens most of the time yes yeah I always say that intimacy drives intimacy which drives intimacy which is what you want exactly yeah I think that's beautiful with regard to attachment style because I've noticed that uh I awareness is key yeah and I believe that I have an anxious attachment style.

51:15And I think it's because my parents adored me and continue to adore me. Yeah. They worked their butts off. My mother was an immigrant. My father was the first in his family to go to college. And they worked incredibly hard. But as a result, weren't always in the house. Was there a grandparent or anybody? So they would bring in sitters. And when I look back, I realize that potentially I have an anxious attachment style as a result of this. Right. But my question is, what are the health consequences of having an anxious or avoidant attachment style? So first of all, we're wired for fear. We're wired for it.

52:15It's essential. Again, if the saber-toothed tiger walked into the room, we should have fear. Yes. You know, because that'll help us survive. We also wired, it seems, for what's called panic. And that's an attachment need. So if an infant is left alone, what should they feel? They should feel panic. Panic. Which will make them do what? Which will make them cry out for help. Cry, yeah. Which should do what? They should bring their parents running. Yes. So this is all survival stuff. In Aboriginal cultures, kids are never left alone. there's a book you may wish to read it's called The Continuum Concept The Continuum Concept yeah and it's by an American model Gene Liedloff who traveled to the Venezuelan Amazon six weeks away from civilization lived with some Stone Age people and they just parent totally differently kids are never left alone when the parents go to work The kids, of course, are attached to them.

53:24Attached to them. When the parents engage in social activity, the kids are there. They all sleep together. There's no separation. There's no anxiety either because that panic never gets triggered. But in your case, if at a small age, you find yourself with semi-strangers some of the time. And your parents are not around. That panic is wired in. And that's what creates the anxious attachment style. So that's a perfectly normal response that you had. And that's not the only issue either. The other issue is, do you remember feeling that anxiety is a child? Yes. Who would you communicate it to? You know, I think I kept it to myself.

54:07That's the whole point. Now, you have a child, you said? Yes, two. How old? Ten and thirteen. Okay. Now, if they felt anxiety, who would you want them to communicate it to? Me or their mother. Right. If you found out through some third party that your child felt anxious and they didn't talk to you or their mother, how would you interpret that? I'd be incredibly sad. What would happen between them and you for them not to come to you? Oh, I would have to have created distance. You would have created the message to them that you're not available? Yes. Okay. That's the message you got. So it's not just that you were anxious, it's that you were left alone with your anxiety.

54:57And that has an impact. Now, harder it plays out in adulthood. You might become a people pleaser and never say no. Because you don't want to be rejected, you want to be liked, and you want to be accepted all the time. And that not saying no, as we said earlier, can lead to all kinds of stress in your life. And that stress can create all kinds of physical health problems. It can also manifest as frank anxiety. It can manifest as depression. Or if it was very painful for you to be that alone, the pain might be too much. And it might arise in the form of addictions because addictions are all about trying to soothe pain.

55:45So if you have unresolved emotional pain, you might behave in a whole number of ways that are there and unhealthy for you. Can we explore addiction here? If you like. Please, because I've heard you talk about it, I've seen you write about it, where addiction stems from these emotional voids in our lives, which I don't think as a society we have embraced that as a concept. No, this society is completely misguided when it comes to understanding addictions. So I worked with hardcore drug addicts for 12 years in Vancouver, downtown Eastside. People really dependent on cocaine, crystal meth, heroin, fentanyl.

56:30Well, actually fentanyl came along after I left medical practice, but opiates, heroin, codeine, Dilaudid, and so on. If you look at the physiology of the opiates, they work in the brain because we have receptors for them. But then you say, well, why do we have receptors for something that comes from a plant in Afghanistan, the opium plant? Well, we don't. We have receptors for our own internal opiates. So human beings have an internal opiate system. And those opiates are called endorphins. And endorphin means endogenous morphine-like substance. Now, why do we have endorphins? Because they're essential for life.

57:17Number one, they're pain relievers. So the so-called placebo effect is not placebo at all. When people perceive they're getting help, their brains will release endorphins, which will kill the pain. Okay, right. So it's not an empty imagined effect. It's actually a physiological response. So pain relievers, physical and emotional pain, both. So we have to have pain in life. You and I both agree. Without pain, we're not warned about what's dangerous. But we also have pain relief. So that's the endorphins. That's the first thing they do. I'm talking pure physiology here. The second thing they do is they modulate experiences of pleasure and reward, elation.

58:04Now imagine how dark and dull life would be without pleasure and reward. And the endorphins give us that. That's the second thing they do. And the third thing that they do is the most important thing they do, and we've been talking about the whole day, which is attachment. Attachment, yes. So they make attachment possible. Now, when you speak to heroin addicts, and I've done this repeatedly, and say, what does it do for you? One of them said, first time I did heroin, it felt like a warm, soft hug. What was she talking about? Love. Another guy said to me, oh heroin doc it's like you're sick and you're shivering with a fever and you're three years old and your mother wraps you in a warm blanket and gives you warm chicken soup.

58:50That's what the heroin feels like. They're talking about love. Who gets prone to heroin addiction? The people who didn't get the love they needed as children and they're lacking the endorphins, not the need to get it from the external opiates. So it's a normal response to some deprivation in childhood. More generally speaking, I could give you a definition of an addiction and just again see how it fits for you. Okay. So addiction is manifested in any behavior where a person finds temporary pleasure or relief and therefore craves it, but then suffers negative consequences and can't give it up. Now I said any behavior.

59:36So pleasure, relief, craving, harm, inability to give it up. I said any behavior. Could be heroin, crystal net, cocaine, nicotine, alcohol. Pornography. Pornography for sure. Sex, work. Shopping, eating, gambling, internet, cell phones, gaming, extreme sports, any self-cutting, bulimia, any number of activities. My question to my audience, in this case, my audience of one, is according to that definition, have you ever had an addictive pattern in your life? According to that, many. Okay. Many. Well, yeah, me too. So then the question I ask next is, know what was wrong with the addiction? Because we know what was wrong with it.

1:00:33What was right about it? What did it give you in the short term that you wanted? Right. That warm hug. Oh, it gave you warmth? Warmth, yes. Okay. Yeah. So in other words, the addiction wasn't a disease that you had, nor was it a choice that you made. It was an attempt to supplement in your life that you desperately needed. In other words, that lack of warmth is a form of emotional pain. So my mantra on addiction is not why the addiction, don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. Now if I wanted to ask why the pain, I wouldn't have to look at your genes and your inheritance. What would I look at?

1:01:12Your childhood. Your childhood. It always goes back to childhood. But on this note, so this is profound. This is not how we look at addiction in the world. And when I look at, you know, we have a presidential election in the United States. But when you look at politics and how even fentanyl, it feels as if the answer is heavier policing. Yeah. Well, the Americans have not only insisted upon, but have also internationalized the so-called war on drugs. And they've been doing this for a good 50 years now. And what's the result? The result is that the Americans have more people in jail than any other country in the world.

1:01:57They have 5 % of the world's population, 25 % of the world's jail population. And last year, I think about 120 ,000 people or more died of overdoses in the US. So in one year, the Americans lost over twice as many deaths to overdoses as they lost in the Vietnam, Afghan, and Iraqi wars put together. This is how successful they are. And they insist that the whole world follows their example. And this is because they have a punitive, rejecting, you know, attitude. Now if they actually look at what's going on, these have been called by two American economists deaths of despair. Where they happen most is where the industrial heartland has been flattened, meaningful jobs have disappeared, communities have eroded, people feel more alone, more isolated, there's less meaning in their lives, there's less purpose in their lives, there's less status if you like, sense of belonging.

1:03:07And if on the personal level is childhood trauma, that is the template for addiction, then on the social level is the loss of meaning, connection, purpose, and community. And as society generates more or more of those ills, you're going to have more and more addictions. And then what they do is they punish these people as if they were somewhat personally sinful. They're just normal human beings caught up in forces bigger than they are. Right. Looking for love. They were looking for love, yeah. Incredibly sad. But what's worse is that how this information is here. You're talking about it. It's out.

1:03:55But it's not being executed. It's not built into the system. But I know that I only have you for a few more moments. I want to look at trauma. Yeah. Because everything that you've mentioned here, the answer is go back to childhood. Yeah. So let's look at... If I may interrupt. Sure. Go back to childhood, but look at the large social context in which that childhood takes place. Okay. Because you can't serpate the individual from the environment. Fair. This is fair. First, how do you define trauma alone? Yeah. Because I've heard different definitions. Sure. So that's important. I mean, it's one of these words that so much depends on what we mean when we use it.

1:04:40Like if I use the word God, so many people would understand so many different concepts. so we ought to you know i mean for some so some people god is the universal ground of all being and meaning and purpose and existence for others it's a old guy in the sky with a beard you know so right so it all depends now trauma uh in my definition is very simple if you look at the word origin it's a greek word for wound or wounding so trauma is a wound that hasn't healed okay which also means that trauma is not what happens to you. Trauma is what happens inside you as a result of what happens to you. So I sustain a blow on the head.

1:05:27That's not the trauma. The trauma is the concussion that I develop because that's the unhealed wound. So there are traumatic events that can wound people, but the trauma is the wound itself that hasn't healed two people break their legs in one case the leg doesn't heal that's the trauma if it heals it's not a trauma it's just a painful experience all right so not everything that's painful is traumatic everything that's traumatic is painful not every stress not every pain is traumatic If it doesn't heal, it is. And I'm talking about psychologically. Okay. So it must be unhealed. It's the unhealed.

1:06:14So it's the unhealed wound and then our attempted defenses against the unhealed wound. So, for example, unhealed wound in one case might be that they perceive themselves as abandoned in childhood. That's not the wound. The wound is not that my mother gave me to a stranger. The wound is that I therefore came to believe that I wasn't lovable. And that's what I'm carrying. And then I have my defenses against not being lovable. One of my defenses against not being lovable is to try and make myself perhaps powerful and unassailable, you know, grandiose. Yes. And then I go into politics. Then I run for president.

1:07:02or it might be that I try to be a people pleaser. Yes. And I try and take on everything and try and help the whole world while ignoring my own needs, you know. So trauma is the wound and our defense is against the wound that later on create more problems. So that's my understanding of trauma. How many adults, what percentage of adults are living in trauma? Well, in our society, I would say a large percentage because we can be wounded in two ways. We've already touched upon some of them. Some of the ways we can be wounded is overt suffering, such as being physically abused or emotionally abused or sexually abused or a parent dying or a divorce where a parent disappears.

1:08:00or a parent being jailed, certainly racism, poverty are traumatic experiences for a lot of people. It impacts on the body, impacts on the brain.

1:08:15A parent being addicted, a parent being mentally ill, all of those things can be traumatic. But there's another subset of trauma that isn't due to bad things that were done to you, but the good things that were not done that should have been done for example your parents if they had to go to work they should have been alert to your sense of isolation and dealt with it now they didn't mean to hurt you they loved you they in fact as you said they adored you but they didn't see you and not being seen is a source of a wound because that's the need that we have we need we We have this need to be seen for who we are as we are.

1:09:00So in our society, because of the stress on parenting and the erosion of extended families, the loss of community, the increasing isolation, the tremendous pressure on parents, a lot of kids are wounded in loving homes. Yes. Yes. What is the answer around how we go about healing ourselves? and everyone's quick to say therapy that's the way but we know therapy is not always accessible not everyone's going to go to it so how do we heal our trauma well again the first point is and the most important point is recognition so then rather than believing oh there's something wrong with me you say well something happened to me and that what happened had certain impacts that information is not hard to get these days just to mention myself there's so many of my talks on youtube that millions of people have seen and they tell me that just watching them helps them didn't cost a penny yes i don't have a youtube channel yet to subscribe you can just put my name in there but not just myself other trauma healers uh bessel van der kolk yes um the books that I've written, the book that Bessel has written, which is a perennial bestseller, it's called The Body Keeps the Score.

1:10:23My various books, The Myth of Normal, When the Body Says No, Scattered Minds, my book on addiction, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. But other books by people that I've learned from, like Bessel, or Peter Levine and his books on trauma, or his lectures on YouTube on trauma, and many, many, many, many others. Those are easily accessible to everybody. Number one. Number two, each of these books will have certain exercises in them that you can actually regularly do and follow. Number three, you can develop self-awareness practices, such as meditation. Again, lots of instruction on that on YouTube, or it's simple to get books on meditation, where you learn to observe your emotions and your body without reacting to what you observe.

1:11:20So you develop the sense of awareness and presence with which to hold yourself. None of that costs money. No, not at all. Then are there friends you can talk with intimately? Can you say to somebody, look, there's some stuff here that's been bothering me. I don't need you to give me advice or tell me what to do in fact I don't want you to can you just listen to me so just being received by another human being if you're in a relationship as we've been saying this entire conversation the relation can be a beautiful ground yes for healing now having said that ideally if you can also afford some therapy some good therapy because lots of bad therapy out there well that's all always very very helpful but you know nature if you look at indigenous practices they're so connected to nature yes it's unbelievable actually like like i have some indigenous friends when they look at a plant they don't see what i see right i agree i agree you know you know a good friend of mine is a rastafarian oh yeah which is so this is the uh the the blue mountains of jamaica oh really on the portland side yeah And I have a strong affinity to Rastafarians.

1:12:36Yeah, yeah. And he tells me that every day I should walk outside without shoes. Yeah. To be planted in the earth. Exactly. To connect with the earth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so there's nature out there. And even in London, you can find where we're speaking right now. Yes. You can find nature. Where? Where is nature? You can find some trees and some grass, for God's sakes. Right. And hold on to it and look at it. Yeah. You know, there's parks and, you know, some people have a religious practice. Yes. Prayer, you know, I don't, I do some of that, not much. I'm not a religious person in that sense. So there's all these things.

1:13:16But the biggest of all is just the awareness. Yes. You know. Yes. I felt that through our conversation, how critical, how life-changing awareness can be. Oh. I have just two more questions for you. Please. One is, like I said, I've seen countless of your interviews. What is one topic with regard to relationships and our body, our mind, emotions, trauma, that you feel you've not yet talked about, that you believe is incredibly important to talk about? Hmm. It's hard to imagine what at age 80 I haven't talked about yet. but you know what healing um in relationship um because just even recently i'm just so happy to say that in my 55 year marriage we've had such healing just within the last two months you know um so i can talk about it now in ways that i might not have been able to talk about it even six years ago or six months ago, I should say.

1:14:32And so the capacity of healing in relationship, I can't overemphasize it. Wow. Are you open or comfortable talking about what you have healed in the last two months? Yeah. We've more or less dropped our automatic reactions, our past-based reactions to the other. We can be present with each other. And that makes all the difference in the world. So when Ray, my wife, says something that even might be difficult for me to hear, I'm not reacting like a triggered child anymore, or vice versa. It just creates such freshness, you know. I remember on one of our first dates, I was stoned at the time. we're looking back uh how many years now we're looking back 57 years now okay and we're on the beach and I was portable little record player and I put on some music I think it was the Beatles and I looked at this woman and I said I want to go old with her and I had the sense that we're going to have a lot of problems but I also had the sense that once we work through all this ego stuff I can just be with her then this is the person I want to be old with and you know what knock on wood that's where we are so we're young again together you know and I think it was George Bernard Shaw who said that we don't stop playing because we get old we get old because we stop playing so just the capacity to play in the present moment you know and knock on wood it'll last you know but but I never talked much about that healing because they hadn't really got there.

1:16:40I've always been much more particular about talking about problems than about healing itself. And furthermore, there always used to be this gap between how I could talk about these things in public and what I could manifest in my personal life. And at this stage in my life, I don't want that gap anymore. I appreciate that, I really do. I have one final question for you. Yeah. And that is, this is all the guests get this. You've had some incredible conversations in your life. I know this. Yeah. When you think back to the most memorable conversation, who was it with and what did you talk about? Now, do you mean public or private or both?

1:17:27Both. Well, if I say most meaningful, it was my wife.

1:17:35And it'd be about everything I just said. And it's a repeated conversation. Those are the most important conversations in my life. And much of what I'm able to say publicly flows from what I've learned in that process of personal growth in my relationship. I've learned a lot through all kinds of mentors and books and research and experience. But the biggest learnings have been in my personal relationship. I want to end with thanking you from the bottom of my heart, truly. You have been a mentor to me from afar. And what I most appreciate is actually what you just shared right there at the end.

1:18:22And that is, is that you speak authentically and you're vulnerable. And what you do is you give me hope. You truly do. And my wife and I, we've been married for 23 years. Oh, wow. And what's interesting is everyone says, oh, you must have the most incredible relationship. And we say it's work. We work at it. Yeah. And what I appreciate is that you're open about the work that you do and the fact that you're able to continue to enjoy your relationship and enjoy life and give to life and be kind. I think you are a phenomenal human being. And I just thank you from the bottom of my heart, not just for this, but for the work that you do.

1:19:04Truly. Thank you. Well, I mean, thank you for that kind acknowledgement. Thank you. Thank you. So I'm really glad to speak with you. Yeah, it's been an honor. Really has been an honor. Thank you. Good. What a thought-provoking and fascinating conversation. Gabor is truly one of my heroes, and I feel so grateful to him for having this conversation with me, sharing his almost half a century's worth of wisdom. And as usual, I'd like to share with you my key takeaways. Firstly, Gabor Mate's insight about marrying our parents' trauma really made me think deeply. It reveals how our relationships often mirror unresolved dynamics from our childhood.

1:19:45Essentially, when we choose a partner, we don't just marry them. We also bring the emotional wounds and patterns from our upbringing into the relationship. The key lesson here is to recognize that the issues and conflicts we face with our partners might not be entirely about the present situation. They can be reflections of deeper, unresolved childhood wounds. Instead of blaming each other, use these moments as opportunities for growth. When both partners commit to understanding and healing their own and each other's traumas, the relationship can become a space where true healing and growth occur.

1:20:23Secondly, Gabor's quote, we're wired for fear and panic, which are essential, speaks to the natural evolutionary role these emotions play in our survival. Fear and panic are not enemies. They're deeply ingrained in us to protect us from danger. However, in modern life, we often experience these emotions and situations that aren't life-threatening, which can lead to unnecessary stress and anxiety. The key takeaway is to understand that fear and panic are normal, and we must learn to recognize when they're truly helpful and when they're misplaced. Embrace fear when it serves you, but learn to manage it when it doesn't.

1:21:09And lastly, what truly makes someone a great relationship expert is the ability to draw wisdom from a wide range of experiences, including personal. Gabor Mate highlights this perfectly when he shares that while he's learned from mentors, books, and research, his biggest lessons have come from his personal relationships. To me, this is what sets apart a truly exceptional expert in most fields. It's not just about theory. It's about living through challenges and growth that come with real intimate experiences. In this case of relationship experts, it's in those personal conversations and experiences that teach the most about love, authenticity, and what it means to truly connect with others.

1:21:57Gabor embodies this perfectly. When it comes to love, we're all on our own journey. And that means any advice we're given should be tailored to our love goals, not someone else's. This is where my show and Tinder, who sponsor this podcast, have teamed up to help you. Each week on We Need to Talk, I'll explore love and relationships through a different lens, so you can get the advice that relates to your romantic situation. Tinder is for all types of relationships, and I truly believe it has the best tools to help you form the connections you're looking for. That might be long-term commitment or short-term experiences.

1:22:38Maybe it's friendship, but regardless of which part of the journey you're on, Tinder and I are here to support you. Their app is full of possibilities, and it's designed to help you explore every kind of connection. It starts with a swipe, so download Tinder today.

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