"I Just Want My Kid To Be Happy" We’re Talking Transgender Awareness

0:28This episode is brought to you by Netflix. This week, we're opening up a conversation about identity, acceptance, and the power of being seen as we celebrate Transgender Awareness Week. You'll hear from my good friend Ella Morgan and her dad Chris, who share their story with honesty and heart, from learning to understand one another to finding pride in living authentically. These are the conversations that remind us that everyone deserves to feel safe in who they are. This week, we're talking transgender awareness.

1:11You are the first transgender woman that I believe that I have ever been close to. And I remember when I found out about you coming on to Married at First Sight UK, because that's where we met, is I remember how almost nervous I was in ensuring that I was... You didn't want to say the wrong thing. I get it. I get it. I get it all the time. Didn't want to say the wrong thing. Didn't want to be offensive. No. But that's what I'm trying to change, Paul, is that, and I get that because I look at the activists. Monroe, I look up to so much. Sean Fay, Charlie Craig. But the reason I call myself an advocate rather than an activist is because once you say you're an activist and you say one thing wrong I feel like you're completely cancelled and as a community who everyone wants to cancel every day look at what Donald Trump's doing even today trying to ban trans people in the military I don't want to be one of these no disrespect to them where everything I talk about every conversation is trans there are people that do that job and they're fantastic I personally don't relate to that I learned more through watching Naja on Big Brother when I was younger because there was no one else to look at and inspire to.

2:28And she was just like me, just a woman who's trans, living her experience and doing it so openly. And people relate to that more, I feel. No, no, you made us feel incredibly comfortable, right? And what I also loved is I loved the learning opportunity it gave me. And also what I noticed is that because of you, I began to become more aware of transgender, I would say, challenges across the world. I leaned into these topics because of you, right? So I say all this because in this conversation, I am going to ask questions that I'm curious about. Yeah, good. I'm glad. And what I love is that, you know, you're not going to say bad, Paul, but still check me though.

3:14Oh, I will. I didn't go laughing, but I will. You still check me. Me, I get to check Paul everyone. You do. I want you to check me. Please check me. And can we start with this? Is that, so in my research for this, what I realized was the term deadnaming. Or what I found is I'd never heard of this term before. So with this term, this is referring to, well, if you could explain. So deadnaming is essentially where somebody refers to you as your old name that you were born. So, for example, me, my name was Evan. For me, it was part of my healing because everything I do in life, I'm like, if it wasn't for Evan, I wouldn't be who I am and where I am now.

3:58So I actually talk about Evan as a third person. So Evan was always a girl in my eyes. And Ella is that person inside and out. Does that make sense? But if someone deadnamed me, they'd say, you know, you're a man, you're a he and you're called Evan. But everyone knows my old name anyway. But so, and I know your old name, right? So if I refer to your old name, that's not dead name, because I'm not saying that's who you are now. Yeah, exactly. It's usually when you do it in an aggressive way. Gotcha. And yeah, that's when it's not comfortable for either parties, really. All right, fair. See, I'm learning already.

4:36Yeah. We just started. I'm learning. I feel more comfortable being in a space where if I acknowledge it and I talk about it, no one can then hurt me or upset with their words. Because the one thing someone would want to do if they didn't like me is come up to me and call me a he, call me a man and call me a mild name. Thinking that that would upset me or offend me. But actually where I'm so at peace with that, it won't hurt me. It won't offend me. I'm the first to call myself this and that. Interesting. But I think I do it as a bit of a coping mechanism. Yes. I've learned so much from you. Am I not mature now?

5:08You are very... So mature. I'm a 31-year-old woman. Yeah, I was going to say, and this is, I mean, you're looking very mature. Thank you. Can I say, yeah, looking very, no latex anywhere? No, well, it's not an award show, so I'll leave that for the BAFTAs. So now, also, with Married at First Sight, from what I understand, you had not been in a committed relationship before, or is that not the case? so going to i and i've never spoken about this before either when i was 20 that i didn't disclose um my transition and we were seeing each other for about a month so i don't call that a relationship and also i wasn't honest with him because i would never do think of doing that now whether i was in or out of the public eye uh now it's slightly different if i date somebody um but yeah back then I was so I didn't have any confidence and so I just wanted to be liked for Ella and I was like if he knows about me he's not going to want to be with me so there was that that lasted a month then I met somebody not long after and we we dated for about six months but again he didn't know the pattern that I was trying to do was get validation from dating people because that I thought that would make me feel more of a woman I look back at that Ella and I just think girl know your worth but I didn't have any worth then what I hear you saying is that you were in casual relationships.

6:29Yes. But you were never in a long term committed relationship before maths. You said you didn't disclose. No. What what did you I did disclose that I was trans. OK. Yeah. So so so here's my question is what is your opinion on that? Now, I think it was wrong. Technically, I didn't lie. I didn't say I you know, I just said I'm Ella. I never actually said, no, I'm not trans. That's a lie. but I think I just didn't feel comfortable or confident or secure enough in myself to put myself in a position where I fully disclose something so personal to me when is the right time to tell someone you're trans when you're dating someone most men and I've only ever dated cis straight men most men that I've met aren't open and accepting to dating someone like me so going into that I was thinking well then I if I tell them they're going to judge me if I tell them too soon.

7:22They're never going to give me a chance. If I tell them too late, I'm classed as a liar. They'll never get to know me for me. Or, you know, I've betrayed them. So there is no timescale. There's no right time to tell somebody such a personal thing. And you just mentioned one reason why you didn't want to disclose is because of safety. Yeah. And that's probably the key word is that as and I don't always feel safe even now. Like when we did celebsk dating, I went into that first mix of being like I don't know these people do they know who I am do they and it wasn't in a cocky confident way I was just thinking I'd rather know you know no other person has gone on celebscredited as a trans person and had to navigate this in their head people know Helena she didn't have to say I used to be a boy or I was born in a boy's body and I had to be like do these people know who I am you know are they going to be accepted to me I don't want to be hurt or like insulted or beaten up on national television all these things were going through my head and that's the way it was in life I kept thinking am I going to be raped is there going to be three men around the corner waiting to hurt me because this is the reality of being in the trans community as a trans person so yeah and there was one time where I went back to this guy's house I must have been about 25 and I was single and he brought his friend back and it was in Bristol door where I'm from and his friend knew about me but this guy didn't and we were in bed and things started to happen and he had a text and he said is there something you need to tell me and I got my shit and I walked out as quick as I could before I could get out I this glass went past me smashed and he was trying to throw these glasses at me whilst the other guy just sat and watched and I was like there's two massive grown men in their 30s I'm gonna get really badly beaten up and somehow I managed to get out.

9:13And I think it was after that that I then started to be like, right, I'm going to put that I'm a trans person because I never want to be in that situation again. My answer to your question is, if you feel uncomfortable, you should be open. But from a safety point of view, I definitely feel safer with people knowing whether they're going to judge me and give me a chance or not. I don't really care at this point. I'm in a lucky position that they may know me anyway. So I don't have to tell them that conversation because it is an awful conversation to have. And from your perspective, though, you could see the fear of what happens if they don't know, right?

9:46Because I distinctly remember Celebs Go Dating as that first mixer. Yeah. Because I remember you before we started filming, asking the producers, do they know? Are these men aware? And I can also see the relief on your face when the producers are like, yeah, they know, and they're here for you. Yeah. Yeah, and how incredible that must have felt as well. I think this might be the right time to bring your father in. Ah, okay.

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11:15Did we do that? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, because I think it's going to be fascinating to hear the story. There he is. It's a pleasure. Come on. Like a little family day out we've had so far. Oh, my gosh. So here's a stat. Almost half of LGBT plus young adults. So 46 percent are estranged from at least one family member. So there you go. I mean, that's that is incredibly sad. Yeah. Right. So if we go back to that moment. OK. I can't remember much about the conversation in the room It was more of a conversation in the room after When me and Drew seen you in the car in Weston Did you know about me at that point now?

12:09No, not at all, nothing So I was with Rosie, my friend Rosie And I was driving my car And I was Stopped at a roundabout I stopped at a roundabout And we came on the opposite side of the roundabout And sort of drove round And I looked and then there was Ella dressed never like I've ever seen him before the wig and the makeup and the it's all for and then I just thought looked in my side and went was that and he said yeah that's Ella or that's that was Evan yeah that was it right and it's Just like a, I don't know, just a funny, a feeling I've never felt before. Like shock, but just complete, like didn't know what to say, just didn't know what to say.

13:06In that moment, Chris, I'm imagining, so you have no idea whatsoever about your child's true identity. Yeah. Right? And now you're at this roundabout and you look and you see for the first time. It might as well have been on a billboard. That's the effect it had. You drive along and you see. And you just see it. You see it. Yeah. If you could describe those feelings, quite honestly, what were some of those feelings? Because when I look at this data and I see that 46 % of LGBT plus young adults are estranged from at least one family member. To me, that sounds like the feeling on the part of one family member is disappointment, upset, you know, etc.

13:59So did you have any of those feelings? Only upset, not knowing I could have been spoken to about it or I could have been approached. I would have been fine. but to find out that way was more of a shock than sitting down and having a conversation like this. Okay, okay. Isn't that funny because from what I remember, and obviously our stories may differ, in my eyes you didn't take it very well at the beginning and I was more scared about telling you than I was telling mums. Well it's not, when you say not take it well, it's not like you coming home with a tattoo and you've kept it secret for six months.

14:35it's a little it's something a bit more sort of is that what you really want is it are you like certain this is the sort of thing you want to do is that sort of that was what how it came to me it was it was you sure you're doing this do you want this or is it just a phase or is it an experiment or is it that's that's the sort of that's how i felt really yeah but that's that phase we did have a lot of like rows like we didn't have the best relationship like we do now didn't we like we both i maybe didn't deal with things very good but initially when i came out and the first few months of me presenting as ella were difficult instantly instantly you wanted us to just forget the past and just say this is what i am now and just get on with it but yeah it's not as easy as that for for a parent we weren't ever involved in anything like this before it was all knew it was complete is it was like a bomb went off basically yeah I can imagine you know I think what would be helpful is so I gave Ella this this photo so she gave us the image but we printed this this image right and I have another image can I show you one other image that I have I want you to tell me who's in this image and what comes to mind when you see this image

16:08Chris you're looking good at that Chris. You're looking good at this Chris. Alright so if you could describe this image what do you see what's happening?

16:25Well it's just love.

16:34Yeah, just...

16:39I don't know anything.

16:44Just have your times, right? Okay. Which it is now, but... Yeah. Chris, I tell you, this one... This one's got you emotional. Yeah. What do you think's pulling at your heartstrings when you look at that photo?

17:10Uh, I thought it was whatever. At that point, especially then, because I think a lot of people don't realize that was a different time. Yeah. You know, there wasn't a lot of, there was, there still is not enough visibility around the transgender community today, but then it was almost non-existent. So at that time, I don't, What year is that roughly? That picture, that was 2001, that one. All right, 2001. Did you know what the term transgender was in 2001? No. No? No. So, you know, Chris, this is where you and I are very similar because you know when I fully got introduced to the transgender community?

17:54You know when that was? When I met Ella. When was it? Yeah. Blimey. So I've been on the outside, you know, So I think we're very similar in that. And when initially when I met Ella, I was, and even now I find myself almost tripping over certain words to not cross a line. How do you not offend but yet learn as a father? How do you do that?

18:29just just a simple thing of referring to Ella's she instead of he was it was hard at the beginning because for best part of 18 9 sort of 17 18 years that's what you've always said yeah and you've said he or and to completely want to say something but think I better customize this to not offend in anyone the power of this conversation is for us to help to destroy a lot of the ignorance yeah that's that's that that exists you know in the world this is for it's like bullying at school I mean if how kids do it at school now I mean that must be so brave yeah yeah I couldn't have done it no the same the same you know because I I can imagine, you know, you even going to work.

19:24So you were working at the airport. Yeah. Right? You're going and you're now presenting as a woman. Yeah. What's the reaction like? Oh, God. Well, I started the job as presenting as Evan, so they would already see what I looked like. I worked on check-in, so I was a check-in agent. There was protocols because of security and you have to go through security and I have my name badge so we had to change that and I had to have a new picture and you know they had to have talks of what toilets I would use so all of these things had I couldn't just come in one day I had to actually tell them and I was so nervous the day I think I had a few days off and then I knew that the maybe the Monday whatever it was was the first day that I was going to be going back to work as Ella um and it was yeah I don't know how I did it I was so nervous because people had already heard that I was going to be coming in you know different they were already prepared for it and I was told right you can use disabled toilet not the girls and when you go through security you have to go if you beep to go up to them board the flights um if you beep a male has to assert you in a private room so I knew I was having this special treatment but everyone's reaction was mostly like positive everyone was really nice to me some of the passengers passengers would be rude but I still don't know how I did it to this day.

20:53You know that that notion of passing though and then also you mentioned that there's a you mentioned 40 percent of transgender women go through with gender reassignment. So was that what was the reason why you opted to do that and why do the vast majority not? More than likely most people aren't ever going to meet a trans person, especially with what's going on in the climate now. Everyone wants to keep quiet and keep their identity quiet because we don't want to have to face, you know, discrimination more so than we already do. So I think because society's view of trans people, a lot of the time is just based on one person that they've seen on telly or that they know, they basically think that every trans woman has surgery.

21:40So a lot of people will ask me, have you had it done you know well i've talked about it so much on the show that i have a vagina that i don't think anyone needs to ask me now but there's so many other types of trans people we're not all the same and we don't all share the same journey and story so i don't know why a lot of trans women you know a lot of the time it's because they're scared of the surgery it's very daunting scary surgery my dad was with me when i had mine done and it was horrendous not just for me but obviously for him it shouldn't matter what's in between your legs it doesn't define you you're Paul, like you are a man but whether you have a penis or a vagina I'm not going to see you any differently Chris you were there to support Ella through the procedure two weeks were there it was the first procedure I had out of everything I had down below, then a year later my breast and then two, three years ago I had my face done but my dad was with me for that first operation I was 20 2015 yeah nearly 21 yeah okay it was hard it was brutal because a lot of people had said from when i did start to research oh you'll wake up and it will be like euphoric like you'll be like i am a woman now and because you put that pressure on yourself that once you've woken up just what just because i've suddenly had you know a vagina done i'm going to feel more of a woman and i couldn't get my head around it so i thought maybe that's how i'll feel and i didn't i didn't feel that i just felt pain um could even walk i can walk it was it was graphic it was awful so the reality is and this isn't the case for everyone if anyone is watching and obviously having it done or on the waiting list best thing i ever did but i was so young and i hadn't prepared myself mentally for the pain and how life-changing it was and there was so much emphasis on you're going to wake up and feel like a woman i already felt like a girl anyway i've always felt like a girl having that didn't really make me feel any different so I was a bit let down from from it I'm curious though is so Chris you're with her the entire time what was your experience as a parent going through this process um on I think we got there the day before you had it done didn't you so we just went there and just found a room and just when I got some tea didn't we then it was a bit surreal really and then the next morning I sort of said goodbye to you and you went down on the on the

24:10thing but then I knew as soon as I said goodbye there's no coming there turning back it wasn't the case of oh I've changed my mind I want to go back as a boy I knew that was the final thing so I thought it could either get a hundred percent better or a hundred percent worse and obviously it's all good now but at the time I thought if she wakes up and says I did I've made a mistake it's too late it's too late but there was no telling you any different I mean we didn't try and talk you out of it but we just said is it you sure that's what you want so yeah and I just yeah I just left her and went off and had some food and just walked back

25:00and then I went back later and it was yeah she was just wiped out really completely wiped out she couldn't even hardly speak I mean well you could get out of bed could you but um yeah it was that was when it hit me really I think it is and I knew that was only the start of it really it was not the like I said wake up with your bits done and then it's all playing sailing because it's not it's not it's just but it's just start if that's what you want it's a start it's a start yeah it's a start but and what what support is there for the parents well we had none we had none at this is something I want to fight for in we we went to doctors or Amanda went to the doctors and ass and they said well don't really got any information best thing I say is just go on the internet so I if I was setting up something now to help say transgender people or children or adults whoever it is it's the support for the people around them because if that person who's transitioned hasn't got the support it just means must be so hard the person who's transitioning if their family get the help they need they can see what they could be doing or what they should be doing or what they shouldn't doing and that that process could help them and help everybody everyone yes yes all all over the board i agree yes so currently though you're saying that there's so you had no support well that's still the case yeah and that's still the case into this because it's one thing that i'd love to change is obviously nhs funding is being cut all of the time and so with me it is i got funded my surgeries i've got funded my laser hair removal and my therapy and there's some voice coaching that was all for me there's no current funding to give therapy to family spouses partners family members or siblings of trans people this therapy is solely for them and even though I used to try and get my mom and dad to come with me so we could all I guess talk it would only ever be we'd sit in the way to me yeah they'd have to wait in the room you know what's clear is I can see that this is both a passion bubbling in both of your hearts is to not just talk about this, but to ensure that the support is there for others going through this process.

27:26Understanding starts with listening and conversations like this to remind us how powerful empathy can be. Thank you to Ella and Chris for sharing their story and helping us see what love and acceptance truly looks like. Thank you.