"I Was Minimising My Blackness" | We're Talking Black History Month

0:00When it comes to what your family eats and drinks, you know your choices matter. You're the expert because you know what fits your life. And getting it right starts with good information. That's why America's beverage companies are sharing more information about our ingredients at GoodToKnowFacts.org. No spin, no judgments, just the facts straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients. Visit GoodToKnowFacts.org. Hello and welcome to We're Talking. This week, we're honoring Black History Month, a time to celebrate identity, culture, and heritage while reflecting on the stories that shape us.

0:43Today, we're hearing from Jordan Stevens, Jamelia, and Estelle. From navigating life as a mixed race in Britain, to growing up in a tight-knit community, to the influence of family and culture, these are honest, layered conversations about what it means to belong, to be seen, and to celebrate Blackness in all its diversity. So let's dive in. This week, we're talking Black History Month.

1:22So your mother is white? Yeah, mom's white, yeah. Okay, so your father's Black? Yeah. uh you're so by the time you're in brighton you're 10 so what is your impression of who you are when it comes to race no then oh yeah so the yeah the maddest thing about brighton was that there's not that many black people when i was there there wasn't that many black brown I think, I think we call it BAME then, black. Oh yeah, I remember it. It was six years ago it was BAME. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. See I got here I was like, BAME? Are you serious? I know. Are you serious? I know, it's kinda nuts.

2:09But all I remember was assimilation. That's what I remember so vividly. I am, I've learned of myself, I'm naturally a sponge anyway. I do, if I spend enough time with a person or a vibe, some part of me admittedly does blend or i want i want to i want to merge than me okay um again even being mixed race as a as an idea or as a feeling is bizarre because you don't look like either parent and you're caught between two cultures is the whole thing is is a trip anyway i remember very much being the london boy in brighton and then after about two years i i just assimilated with a couple of the subcultures there so I remember like I dyed my hair red when I was about 11 and then became like a grunge kid and I wanted to be a skater you know and I had like a couple of grunge mates you like even if I wore a football top they'd be like nah you know like it's too chavvy I think they're townie or whatever it was um I now in hindsight I feel I was trying to minimize the qualities of mine that would be associated with blackness in order to fit into social groups in Brighton.

3:16Which you're sad. I could talk to you for a week. About right. On this particular topic. Yeah. In the United States, there was a very famous court case called Plessy v. Ferguson. Have you heard about this? No. So Plessy v. Ferguson essentially stated what constituted a black person. This is the one drop thing. Exactly. Which stated that if there was one drop, in essence, that was one eighth of your heritage could be tracked back to someone black, regardless of how you present it, regardless of the color of your skin, regardless of your hair, regardless you are black. So in the United States, growing up, I grew up in the 80s and the 90s, we didn't necessarily categorize as mixed race, black, white, it was you're black or you're not, right?

4:09And for the most part, if you had that one, you're black. So for me, you, if you're Jordan, you're growing up in New York with me, you're black, right? Now, when I got here, I remember talking to someone on a show and I said, so are you, and I said, are you, it was a dating show. And I said, who you're interested in dating? And he said, you know, well, I'm mixed race. So I want, so I said, you know, I said, you're not mixed race. You're black. Wow. He said, no, no, no. I'm mixed race. I said no my brother you are black you know what I mean my American friends would say the same yeah I was like you are black and then he said no he pushed back again and I said mind blow and I realized that I'm in a different place I need to sit back and listen so I'm still trying to reconcile this in my mind so even now what do you categorize yourself as I would say I'm mixed race just because I do think that there's quite a unique experience that comes with that in the same way as there's a unique experience that comes with being dark skinned black but to answer a few of the things you said at the same time i guess the the the first immediate thought i have is that i can't be white this is what i find so funny i couldn't and i would never be because um even if i am genetically half white there's not even a discussion with whether or not i'm white i'm definitely not white which is funny because that like based on percentages surely i could have a choice between the two but no that's not how it works and and there is a lineage of people whose features look like mine whose hair texture is like mine and whose skins like mine that are treated unfairly because of that it's not like there's any point where a mixed race person was like ah you know um which which side do you want it was never that it's you know if anything sometimes they're a reflection being mixed race in itself was a reflection of something having gone wrong before you know either a white woman has had sex with a black man or a black woman has a white man something something's gone awry and this person and not exists you know but i also i understand why people why people challenge these ideas yeah i do and but ultimately it comes down to i think the culture you feel most aligned to and i do push against monolithic ideas of what represents blackness you know i don't like falling into spaces where something is seen as like un-black because it historically um it's not recognized as that right because then you fall into tricky territory like rock music people think what rock music could be like white music like you got that's a preposterous idea when you look at the history of rock music or guitar music you know yeah so it is tough it gets into tricky territory but all i know is i was in a space i was in a city that was predominantly white i would just straight up experience things that would make me feel othered and i need to disclaimer this because i this isn't like a um poor me situation this is very matter of fact i actually i've rarely been that affected by interpersonal racism because a lot of it i think is grounded in ignorance and that person's own just lack of experience with black people i'm with you so when i was a kid you know i remember the first time i was told in a football match to go back to my own country i actually i actually didn't understand what they I wasn't upset do you know what I mean I wasn't I actually was I remember going to one of the you know the manager being like what country is he talking about what is he what is my own country let me know please I would love to go to this country I own like that would be fucking great I hear you so those but you know the feeling of otherness that is something that I would have that would have sat within me and that would and that will that will have manifested itself in certain situations And I certainly have a complex about my position in black spaces sometimes, much like I do in white spaces.

8:08And that's, to me, what feels so sad when I talk to many people who are mixed race, is this feeling of never feeling comfortable in white spaces, never feeling comfortable in black spaces. So it's like, how do you even navigate life? I think for me, like coming from Brighton, where I feel like I have tried to assimilate with a less black culture, then re-assimilating with the London culture that I was initially raised in, that was then confusing. Yes.

8:57So you were born in, is it Handsworth? Yeah. Well, I was actually born like in the, literally in the centre of Birmingham. It used to be called Dudley Road Hospital and it's literally in the middle of Birmingham. But I spent most of my time in Handsworth after being born. Handsworth and Aston. Yeah, the hood. So now, 81. Everyone was like, okay. So 81. But 81, pivotal year. Yes. In Birmingham in particular. Yeah. And in many cities around the UK. So what's happening in 81? So what I know just from historically, there were riots happening, not necessarily at the time of my birth, but I remember that there were riots happening.

9:50And it was like the police against the Rastas in particular. so it was it was a time where um and forgive me if I'm incorrect I'm not a historian but um I know that it was a time where a lot of there was a lot of pressure on Rastafarians to um to basically conform and um and they were rebelling in an extreme way um to well yeah to the point where they were having riots um but even just kind of like racial there was a lot of racial tension um some of the stories that like especially my dad has told me about that time just like you guys were having kids in the middle of it but when I think back my mom and my dad were very very young when they had me so you know I yeah I kind of get it but I still grew up as a rasta I still I was arrested till I was about 10 maybe.

10:48Can we talk about this? Yeah. Because these are stories that I needed to know when we met over a year ago. So first is for a lot of people who don't know what Rastafarian is, they think it's just dreads. Yeah, no. How would you define Rastafarianism? So as someone who lived in it, I'd just say it's the most beautiful way of life. It's a real community-based religion. We still follow the Bible, but we, I'd say that like the, there's huge history connected to how the dreads are relevant. So basically the warriors who were part of the, I'm getting nervous about describing it in case I get it wrong.

11:36But basically, so Haile Selassie, he needed like an army. And if you were in the army, you committed to being in the army by not um not manipulating your hair so allowing it to to to dread up and the hair caused dread in other people which is how dreadlocks became the term for the hair and um and and it was not about the hair but it was just the hair was a commitment to the cause um and it's for me what my experience it was a beautiful religion that celebrated you know being black celebrated um nature and natural food and natural um a natural way of life um there were lots of children lots of children very fertile yes very very very fertile and one of the things I remember being told from early doors is like you know we're all supposed to go forth and multiply like that is something that we're supposed to do we're supposed to have lots of children um and so that you know I've got four daughters now and I kind of I still have a little feeling like oh I should have had more children yeah yeah I feel like I'm supposed especially because the the whole religion you know the way that it treats children is like we are so cherished with all blessings you know no matter how we get here who we're who we're born to um I grew up with how I would describe it like we were all brothers and sisters so I grew up with loads of brothers and sisters some of them not even biologically connected to me but they were still my brothers still my sisters um and their parents treated me like I was theirs you know and um and it's something that I carry carry through to my own life like every child I'll come across you're in my heart you're my child too you know and I really take that that responsibility seriously my impact on a child is so important to me and so I want to be a blessing you know um yeah not only to my own children it's just yeah and and I love that I definitely carry that forward from being born a Rastafarian and even so I I had my locks taken off when I was about 10 because I was going to a Catholic school my My mom wanted me to go into the Catholic school, but with the dread, it would let them know that I wasn't a Catholic.

14:05I don't know why they did that, but it was a thing that parents did. And so, but I've never, I've never stopped having Rastafarianism in my heart. I wouldn't call myself a practicing Rasta, but it's definitely a religion that I, yeah, that's in my heart. Yeah. For sure. You know, why this is a shared passion of ours is because it's a whole spiritual movement that I've been so fascinated by because of my Jamaican heritage. So when I'm in Jamaica, I will visit Rasta communities. Yeah, yeah. And in terms of... How beautiful are they? Oh, my goodness. It's like, you know, first is you talked about how they treat their children, right?

14:47They're called princes or princesses, right? The adults, kings or queens or empress, you know, and there's that level of respect. And then also what I noticed, too, is that in terms of science, mathematics, some of the most genius people I've ever met in terms of science are erastas. So when you're having a conversation with a rasta, it's called reasoning. And these conversations can take hours. But they're the most beautiful conversation, transformative conversations. and even as a child I would love just like sitting down listening to the elders like reasoning and you'd learn so much as you said about science about about the earth but about you know astronomy like you you will learn every single day like yeah and then also this is I have to say this is because so this this photo when you walked in you were like those are the blue mountains right so these are the blue mountains my favorite place in the world yeah I was there recently okay and I'm walking up this trek, right?

15:50This land that has never, there's never been a building on. Yeah. And I'm walking with my two sons. We're walking up the Blue Mountains and my son says, oh my God, dad, there's a man standing in the pathway. He has a machete in one hand. He had marijuana in the other hand. He had no shirt on. He was the most cut up. He had like a 16 pack. Of course. Not a six pack. He had a 16 pack. He walks over and I'm talking to him. This man is 70 years old. Cool. 70. Yeah. The most beautiful physique I've ever seen. He's 70. Yeah. I want to be this. Because health is wealth. Like, you know, so Rastafarians eat like an idol diet.

16:40So it's like you don't have salt. You don't have, you know, everything's from the land. And if you can grow your own, if you can grow like your own food, like you are, you are, you are the richest man. Like you are the richest man. If you are, you know, you have land and you have crops and all of that, like that's, that's the life. Yes. Like that's, that's the, that's success. Yes. You know? So this is beautiful because this is the community you grew up in. Right. So this is how you entered the, the, the earth. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And clearly this has shaped you right throughout your life. Let me ask you something.

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19:20So where did you grow up? I grew up in Hammersmith. I was born and raised in Hammersmith. Grew up in West Ken. I know that. I know that. My favorite theater is Lyric. See? Okay, that's down the street from where I was born. Oh, really? Yeah. And so that was like all our walking distance, schools there, Lyric Theaters there, Hammersmith Shopping Center's there, you know, that whole King Street. That was our stomping ground. That was where we were from. Yes. But my grandma had her house and my granddad when they first came here. And like maybe the 60s, early 60s. Okay. Can I even ask you on that?

19:56Yeah. So your grandparents, is this from the Senegalese side? Yeah, yeah. Now, all right, this is the nerd in me. Yeah. Why did they come to the UK? Because I see that a lot of people who left Senegal would go to France. Yeah. So why the UK? So my granddad, I think, came for work. And then my grandma followed. It was like, you've got to come join your husband. And my mom came, she said, I think in 72, she was 12. And it was like the culture shock of culture shock. She came in a poncho. She still has it. She said she came in a poncho, the wool poncho, like to freezing London, like off the plane, like crazy.

20:40like what in the world are we walking into you know and it was like a whole new home from what she tells me it was tough like the thing wasn't easy like there was a lot of everything you could think of from that era going on the teddy boys the racism the the let's go beat black people for no reason all of that stuff happened she could communicate so much with the look yes she was the funniest the loveliest you know sit there and just bust it up for all times but she had a where she would just look at you or look at whoever in the room, you knew exactly what time it was without having to say it.

21:16And I know that came from having to be in scenarios where you couldn't really, you know, because of the era, you were a woman in the 50s and 60s, you had to be up under your husband. And then her husband was Muslim and she was Christian, and that was a whole other changeover too. That's interesting. Yeah. That's interesting. So would you say that your grandmother was definitely the most influential figure within your family? Yeah. Very matriarchal family. She was definitely the one. The one. Yeah. She left us early, middle of last year. That was tough. You know, that was tough because I remember thinking, what am I going to do when she leaves?

21:51What am I going to do? I know now. Yes. But I remember the feeling. It was tough. It was a tough year. I'm sorry to hear that because that's recent for you. When you go back to you being a little girl, you think about your grandmother, right? what values do you believe that she instilled in you oh okay so and i didn't know this at the time but i trace it back to her being a libra she's very much like look good when you leave the house

22:23go back go change uh i think it was more for her especially about like you're never gonna tell me my kids look less that you know especially again you've got to think of the era you know like coming from uh africa you already looked at as like less than and you know in those areas and let's be truthful like they were not the nicest of like well they were absolutely racist and all the things and one of the things she uh told me i guess later that everyone's always like well finally you got braces i said because my nan told me to nothing to do with you people everything was blowing up american boy was out she was like look at you look so pretty go get these fixed oh well I said, okay.

23:05Only because she told you. Smoothly. And this is the pride in the sense of self my parents and family raised us with. They're like, you're good. You don't allow other people to dictate what this is, who and how this moves. Was it like this idea of if I show up correct, then I'll feel better about I have more confidence? It was some of that. And it was also like, why would you fight yourself? Like, why wouldn't you want to look your best? Right. You know, if there's a thing to help you look your best, go do it. Go do it. Yeah. If it makes you feel good and it's not based on somebody else's stuff, go do it.

23:42Okay. All right. I love it. I love it. So it was a big household, though. It was huge. All right. So how many brothers and sisters for you? In my immediate, there are nine. And then I have cousins and nieces and nephews and there's so many of us. But my grandma had seven kids. And we're our own. I would say we're our football team. We're our own best friends. You know, we're our own gang crew, you know? Yeah, I could see how close-knit family was. And I think also for a lot of immigrants, right, that family was everything because family was your support system. It was. And it was a reminder of where you came from, you know?

24:23Especially if you're coming from places like West Indies in Africa, seeing that person next to you who looks like you, sounds like you, feels like you, understands intimately and without a shadow of a doubt what that look means, without having to explain it to anybody, is a whole other, you know, invaluable, especially in the 80s and the 70s and the 60s, you know, reestablishing yourself in another country. Yes, yes. I could see now the void, you know, that was put in your life when you're Nanbass. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she sang me happy birthday. It was the last time we saw each other on my phone.

25:01And I told you I bawled for maybe half the day. It was maybe a year before she passed. I'll cry right now. But there was a, like, I just think about her entire experience. And I wanted more for her. I wanted her to have more. I wanted her to see. But this was the journey she chose. She was brave, man. She was really brave. You know, you did something. she was one of the ones you know um and I think about that and I think about the women that she came from and I think about my life and I think about the fact that I am her boldest dream I lived and I live in a whole nother country like she did I built community like she did like my granny would go and fix curtains in people's houses when they first came over and lay carpet and lay floors for people that couldn't call the handyman because they weren't going to them because they was black.

26:01So my grandma knew how to do some things, and she would go and help other women build their homes. And, you know, I'm living the things that I know she saw for herself that she wasn't able to do, you know? And I just think to myself, that's a blessing. That's a wild blessing to even, you know? So I'm happy about it. I'm just like, every time I think about that, I think to myself, So there's no version of me that I should ever not trust. There's no version of me that needs to play small. There's no version of me that needs to entertain thoughts of mediocrity. Because she ain't go through all of that for me to do this.

26:39No. I get chills thinking about her. Because I think when you say you are her wildest dream, it's almost like you're beyond her wildest dream. She would be like, how is she doing? Like, I broke my foot maybe a couple years ago, and she had Alzheimer's intervention back when she was leaving us. And my mama told her, and my mama was like, you know, she asks about your foot every other week. You know, they can't remember short term. And she asks about your foot every other week, like how's your foot doing, how's your back, how's everything working with your body? I was like, why does she know that?

27:20why does she remember this? Like, why is this a thing? And it just is a thing in your mind. Like, don't forget who you are, where you came from, and that somebody loves you and will love you for eternity. The spirit is with you, you know? So yeah, I'm crying again. But that really is that. And so like, not every decision is from that, but that's part of the confirmation of trusting myself. Yes. You know? Yes. Yeah. It's profound. That's going to stay with me. Yeah. You know what's going to stay with me, too, with what you just said, is that it's with you forever. Yeah. Yeah. She is. She never leaves me.

27:56Like, she'll pull up on me in a second. Yes. These conversations remind us there's no single Black experience. Every story adds to a rich collective tapestry. Thank you to Jordan, Jamelia, and Estelle for sharing their stories. You can find the full episodes on We Need to Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Remember to celebrate your roots this month and every month. Keep reflecting, keep learning, keep talking.

28:40The Limo Emu

28:56It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Lemu? Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera! They see us! Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual.com. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Savings vary underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. Start the season with Etsy and make your holiday traditions extra special. On Etsy, you'll discover original pieces from small shops that will help you celebrate your way. Shop Etsy for holiday decor that makes you feel seen. Special starts on Etsy. Tap the banner to shop now.