“It’s An Epidemic!” Drag Race Star Bimini on The Dark Side of Drag, Addiction And Queer Shame

0:00This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. fiscally responsible financial geniuses monetary magicians these are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds visit progressive.com to see if you could save progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates potential savings will vary not available in all states or situations i p***ed on donald trump in my performance. I love drag. RuPaul's Drag Race UK. You're casted. I didn't expect to get the call. I wasn't ready but I just threw myself into it. Bimini darling, have a seat. I came off the show and I had a wealth of opportunity.

0:44Five star hotels, shooting magazine covers. My dream is coming true. It went sour with my manager. I was like so alone, crying out for help and that's when I first used drugs to numb how I was feeling. abusing drugs is definitely a real big issue that's happening within the queer community for example like chem sex yes in the past decade 1 000 deaths have been linked to chem sex related causes just so sad what i'm trying to learn now is allowing myself to feel low but the drug use isn't part of my life so when you think back to the lowest point when was it i got a phone call there's been a car accident one has died everything just went numb you've gone through these incredible challenges and you continue to fight.

1:28I hope for many things for you, but in particular, what I hope for is your happiness, because I know that is what you want more than anything. It was quite hard to hear that. I don't know why. Quite hard to hear. Bimini, who loves you?

1:50Hey, it's Paul here. Before we dive in, I just want to say thank you for being here. If this show has meant something to you or taught you something new, I'd love for you to like and subscribe. This show only happens because of you. That one small click helps us grow, bring on amazing guests, and keep these honest conversations going. We've got some huge episodes coming, and if you subscribe, you'll be the first to know when they drop. Thank you.

2:26How should I refer to you? As in like my... Pronouns. I'm happy with they. I'm happy with, yeah, I'd say they. But also just bimini. Yeah. You know, and even for us to even touch on this is, is this almost exhausting to have to go through that kind of preamble with people? No. and I also understand that it's a very complex conversation but like I think from my perspective like um language evolves and language changes and actually we have always used they them in in our language you know in like a singular term like you'd say something for example like where was so and so today oh they were out playing football yes and that's already using the term they without even knowing like consciously so I think like for some people it's very pronouns are very very important and I think that's something that I have definitely struggled with over the years was being so open about the non-binary identity but then also actually realizing that then became the kind of complete opposite of what I was feeling it became its own category I didn't want to then become part of another binary idea of what that is so it's kind of like it was a really weird weird one but as long as you're not coming from a place of malintent people can understand like you can mess up it's good to just ask I think yeah yeah that's fair and I appreciate that um and it's interesting because you said that your understanding has evolved totally has yeah and I want us to go through that journey with you for sure yeah because I believe it is amazing yeah I mean I think that's one of the most amazing things we can be in life is just be open to change and understanding and evolving you know and like and trying to learn from it and sometimes it forces you to pull out the lesson that thing that event could have been so challenging so traumatic but if you can then find the lesson it is a win you know yeah and it could be hard everything has become so it feels very serious at the minute and a very um like there's there's less fun but there's also you're seeing so much information constantly and we are desensitized to so much and we're all exhausted yes so i think like we all as as a species i think our our kind of collective consciousness hasn't evolved past where we are at techno with technology i think that's advanced way further than we have as humans like in our kind of spiritual sense and that's why we're at kind of the place we're at right now yeah well well let's dig into this journey that you've gone on to get to this place that you're at now yeah because i feel like you're probably in your most mature self-aware state than you ever have been 31 yeah um yeah i mean i guess so but it hasn't always been that way right no so you were born is it in is it Yarmouth it's great Yarmouth great Yarmouth great Yarmouth all right I was looking at it on the map I didn't realize it's like right across from Amsterdam almost yeah I mean there was gonna be a port but they stopped it which I don't know why but I think it would have been very good for Yarmouth's economy like easy but like it was I think that was genuinely what was meant to happen they were building like an outer harbor because it is the closest port um and it it's it didn't happen which is a shame because I feel like Great Yarmouth has got his quirks and its beauty bits but I think it's an old seaside town that's kind of forgotten about a bit you know yeah they're a bit like left because everyone can get like cheap holidays to Spain now so like no one goes and like loves those areas and I think they're quite deprived and there's like a lot of poverty and like with poverty comes like a lot of crime and like there's a lot of like I don't know it's it's quite sad to see it sometimes like in that sense because i had i had pleasant memories you did okay so when you reflect back and you think about childhood great yarmouth right you just think about the area yeah what was it like i could can't really remember my first house that my mum had like it was just me and my mum at that point but then i think i would start remembering she got a house in a place called borough castle and it's it's kind of the countryside is ish i I mean, it's an L shape.

6:55Like, there's two roads. It's very small. But, like, we were opposite a Roman fort. It was, like, Boudicca and, like, a lot of history there. And I found it really fascinating and interesting as a kid. And I remember just playing out all the time, you know? Like, always, like, playing. There was woods and stuff. Out playing. Yeah. Having fun. With no phones. Yeah, exactly. No phones. Like, just have to come home when it's dark. It's getting dark. It's getting dark for dinner. Like, it was a different time, you know? Totally different time. I mean, I was in that zone. And I'm with you, you know?

7:23But you just said something that makes me think, hmm. Okay, you said it was just you and your mom at that time. So I understand that your mother and your father, they were married and they divorced. Yes. How old were you? I don't actually, can't pinpoint the age, but I think I don't have any memories of them being together. My mom's influence is massive. And I think I have so much respect for how hard she worked, you know. Like she was on her own, essentially, working full time. I was like with babysitters who were amazing, strong women, like always around strong women. whether it was my nan or whether it was like uh and ann kennedy was my babysitter and laura but um they were like they were amazing they loved me you know like it was really sweet but yeah my dad's influence wasn't as strong but interestingly enough like as i got older me and him were very similar even though he wasn't necessarily like the one i wasn't there every day with him you know as a kid like my mum would be like you walk like your dad you've got an ass like your death which at the time wasn't a compliment but now i'm like thank you but like it's interesting because it's like the nature versus nurture of it like yes what how much influence was it or how much is that part of my dna that we were very similar but i think like he just maybe wasn't ready at the time and that's okay yes you know the nature versus nurture that That whole discussion is fascinating to me.

8:48Yeah. Because we oftentimes don't factor in how much the nature plays a role. Totally. And, like, that's something that wasn't even really around. And, like, to walk like my dad. And, like, I mean, I also had the hairline as well. But not now. I've got a new one. But, like, yeah, it's funny. Nature does play a massive part into it. Yeah. And I was always, like, my mom would always say I was very happy. Like, I wasn't, like, I wasn't sad. I was quite, like, flamboyant. okay but like outwardly not knowing what that meant or like just being myself you know like I was navigated and drawn towards more feminine things as opposed to playing football or like things that were like action men like I'd rather play with Barbies or like dance around to Britney Spears like it was yeah and my mum allowed that which I think was quite important I think the only thing that she struggled with was other people's perceptions and worry of how they would perceive me slash how they would react to me or if they would be if they would harm me and that's always been her biggest biggest concern with everything that I've done or everything I've gone on to do I think what your mother did was incredible your mother allowed you to be you unrestricted so many parents begin to see certain characteristics within children and then try to course correct.

10:12And that ends up just creating incredible harm. But your mother said, okay. Yeah. This is who you are. This is who you're going to be, right? But you said that she feared the perception and the potential harm. So at what point do you begin to recognize that there is a perception of you? And what is that perception? i because my mum was supportive but i wouldn't necessarily say everyone else in my family were i was hearing the term gay before i had any idea what sex was you know like any idea what sexuality was i was not trying to be sexual when i'm dancing around to britney spears i'm just having a good time i'm like dressing up in the like pearl necklace and the like little purple velvet dress in the nursery like it's just having fun but I was then hearing oh you can't let him do that he is gay and I remember thinking like what is that like it's it was so confusing to me but that's I picked up on it quite young okay how old do you think I'd say like four or five oh wow I was like quite as a kid one of those like quite um what do they call them now they'd say the teachers would say gifted gifted which went goes on to mean neurodivergent I think now but like I was I was a kid that would like yeah I wasn't afraid to like just be myself and I think like where other kids would be or like held back I wasn't shy like I was very like just me but I was also starting to understand that like oh maybe you shouldn't be like that it's interesting that you also So you were aware of that at four and five.

11:54Yeah, I think it's a detriment as well, though. How so? Because it teeters on the edge of like of why I think like over the years I've struggled with certain things in the sense of like, do I care what other people think about me? I think humans innately do have a level of that. You know, there's only so much you could be like, I don't care, like shut it out, because where are you taking that energy and what are we doing with it? and I haven't always dealt with it in the best way. And I think as a kid, I started taking it on quite early. And I think I remember feeling it very young. Okay. Like judgment from other people about how I am and what I was doing was wrong.

12:33As a result of being told you were wrong, did you try to then conform? I think as a kid, you just brush it off a bit quicker. Okay. But then as I'm starting getting towards puberty, I'd say, that's when I started to be like, okay, I know what I need to do to get by I can take the banter but as long as I'm in on the joke I'm not the joke so that was like a big thing because I was also still inherently like a bit flamboyant and a bit not shy like I had like an attitude and I conformed in a way that I felt would just get me through high school basically okay so in what ways did you conform I wore some horrible tracksuits no in what ways did I conform I'd like get involved in the banter and I just didn't like it like the banter was mean I like hung around the straight boys and the girls because there was like a group of us and I was obviously told I was gay and at that time I was like struggling to understand not struggling to understand but I think because I'd been told it so much that made it harder for me instead of allowing me to explore my identity and my sexuality i was being told i was gay from like the age of four so i think i i struggled with accepting now or just being just being open about it but um i would just get involved in the banter with the boys and i hated it like looking back it was hot like it didn't make me feel good but help me understand when you said you would get into the banter are you saying that you would say what i wouldn't really be the one to i'd like just repeat stuff i don't know like i wasn't like I wasn't myself wasn't happy and the boys would just take the piss out of each other all the time which I think is fine like to a level like a degree but that was it that was the only conversations football girls and taking the piss out of each other and I didn't want to do any of that what did you want to do um I always knew that I wanted to go to London I always knew that I wanted something more than what I was gonna get in Great Yarmouth I think and that's no no disrespect or show you to great yarn with but i just didn't feel like i fit in ever and i feel like i struggled with that still now you know like the idea of fitting in like i feel like maybe i'll never fit in or and that's okay in a way so that's like the path i'm on now like where i'm at is just trying to be happy it sounds like you're saying you felt incredibly alone because you didn't feel like you fit in anywhere who did you have in your life as your support system in my teens i had a good group of friends that were like they were like a bit more um it wasn't the boys it was like the girls like I was closer with the girls really um and I had like a best friend called Ellie Tweed who's no longer here with us but she was like my bestie like we were like she got me and I didn't have to I could just be myself we were just silly like it was really fun and freeing having that and we would I mean we would get pissed together yeah we'd smoke weed like it was we experimented we were teenagers we were just having fun you know like it was it was a real good time and like she was she was she was my support like she was my best friend and like we discovered fashion and charity shops and that was a real formative time for me you know like I was reading Dazed and Confused which is now Dazed reading that and just seeing culture and like learning about like the history of like club music and clubs and fashion and I was like this is that's me like that's and we were both we were all like a little group we were like dressing weirder than other people I guess like we were a bit more provocative at that point we were becoming a bit more outrageous and like known for that in a way so you were almost finding your identity totally like I was never one to be like like a wallflower, which I sometimes wish I was, you know, like I wish I could have just sat back and not had to be involved in not being popular, but being part of something, you know, being part of the accepted group.

16:39Like I didn't have to conform. I wish from a younger age I had stood up and been like, fuck you or whatever. Like, but I didn't, I just kind of shut my mouth. But when I found Ellie and like our other friends as well, like we were we just got it they we just got each other you know absolutely now now one thing is in stop me where you want to on this but i'd like to explore ellie a bit yeah and the reason why and i'll tell you from a personal perspective is is that um whenever we go through traumatic events what they do is they shift how we then view life and how we experience life um i know there was a traumatic event that you went through with with ellie so i'm interested to know that event but then now that you look back how did that shift how you saw life i mean i can look back with such fond amazing memories with ellie like we were like best friends and we were i don't know we did everything together you know like we were quite inseparable and i think what the the way it happened was just such a traumatic experience for everyone that was involved so we were going out for halloween and um we were all dressed up like we went up to norwich there were seven of us um and we were sat in the car to come home one of the driver was she was going to drive she hadn't been drinking but there had been like um like I believe would there have been MDMA throughout the night at some point me and Ellie were sat in the front and I don't know why but I had been drinking I got in a mood and I got a taxi home on my own I don't know what happened like I remember thinking like I've got to be up for college in the morning like I'm gonna go so I left the situation and just got a taxi which I didn't even have the money for like i don't know it's paper like no money and everyone else stayed in the car everyone else stayed in the car and um then i got a phone call at eight in the morning to say is ellie with you and i said no why and her mum said there's been a car accident involving five girls one has died and um it was just like at that time like my everything just went numb you know like everything went like I didn't know what the fuck I just heard like what had happened like it was so crazy and then we all went to the hospital and my mum drove me like we all went up and just waiting to hear like what had happened you know and like the accident was really severe like we not only lost Ellie but like one of the girls broke every bone in her face another girl broke her like neck back like like a lot of damage happened to people you know and I think we're all there all the girls would still be like having living with that now obviously and like we all we all have and like there was like prison involved with it like there was a lot of a lot that happened then and it was just so sad because it was like three weeks before Ellie was turning 19 and we had always said we wanted to be 18 forever so she got to be 18 forever which just like but she she was I don't know she was like a older spirit you know and she would see the best in the world the best in life and like I looked up to that massively basically the week before we were at um our friend's river house just partying like having a good time it was great and she randomly told me and another person the song she wanted at funeral like she told us like what she wanted to be played and then the week later like it was just so many crazy things it's like she knew like her time on this this experience her time on this earth was done she had done everything she needed to do and she was i don't know like that's what how i've always felt with it you know like in that sense and i mean it was i'd say probably the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me going through that she she was one of your best friends yeah she was was my best friend yeah yeah i feel like i've never not since then had a friendship that's the same that's profound yeah that's like yeah she's like the best person ever

21:14uh dr guamate he sat right there in that chair he's considered to be one of the world's foremost experts on trauma he says something about trauma that i think we oftentimes don't give enough credit to and that is is that trauma is not only about what happens to you but it's events that should have happened or we think should have happened to us how that reshapes how we then view life this is an event where you stepped out of this vehicle yeah it's insane because on the way up we're all in it you know yeah and so when you now reflect back how did that event all of it how does it change then how you begin to view life or even experience life differently at that age i felt very lucky i felt very guilty did it give you any confidence to further deepen your identity and be bold with your identity totally and she still does like her belief like the way she is about being like just yeah being happy not giving a fuck what anyone else thinks like I think about her a lot and her kind of ideology of that when I'm struggling and when I have struggled and I know that like I mean I think about her every day you know like she's you still do yeah massively like she's she had such an impact and I think often like talk to her it's funny even to this day recently like I've recently gone through a breakup and I'm thinking about her and thinking about what how she would tell me to be well like she has such like a strong stronghold well yeah i i think that's beautiful you know um i uh i lost my best friend a few years ago and uh what what what i find so interesting about uh losing him is that i speak and think more about him today yeah than i did when he was walking around this earth you know what i mean well that's the life lesson isn't it we don't take we take for granted what's happening right in that moment yes and she would hands down be incredibly proud yeah I mean I'm hoping she'd be here with me oh yeah uh well she is I mean she is yeah so the beginning of the conversation you mentioned that you were evolving your definition of sexual identity okay so at 18 sexually how did you identify I knew inherently that I was like more than just gay okay but I was gay like i was um very obviously gay but like i mean definitely was feeding into like the fashion and everything in a way of the zeitgeist and like there was a tv show i don't know if you've ever watched it called the only way is essex i'm not sure if it's your cup of tea but i have seen a few episodes yeah so there was a lot of them there was a color of their skin that was like quite prominent which was orange and that was also my color of the skin and i had red hair and it was just weird like if i look back it was weird you look like donald trump i look like something i wouldn't go that far though not the trump um but i was yeah it was but like i was gay i was gay but i was also like i don't know not really fully knowing what i was okay you know like i I think if I look back and I was like, is that really what I want it to look like?

24:38I don't know. Like it was something. But I bet it was good. This episode was recorded before the recent Supreme Court ruling on trans rights in the UK. The reason why I'm recording this is because I would have definitely asked Bimini a question on this particular topic. And I know for sure Bimini has a lot to say on this subject. In terms of this whole, you know, sexual identity. Yes. One thing that I have now begun, and I say begun, I now understand, but I definitely didn't when I was over there. That's me at 18, basically. Fab. Is that I viewed the world binary. And I didn't view the world, especially sexuality, as a spectrum.

25:24Yes. Whereas I look at sexuality today as a spectrum. How did you view it at that time?

25:36I remember like my mum I would say to my mum like I'm not just a boy I'm not just a girl like I'm not I don't know I think she maybe thought at the time it was me just trying to be a bit like provocative or a bit like like be a bit different or whatever but I remember thinking like no I feel different I think like I don't feel like I'm necessarily one or the other I feel like I'm just I'm me and I don't fit into the binary I don't fit into the binary but I didn't really know what the binary was at that point so this is like 14 years ago I would have kind of not had any idea what was what I was doing but I was having sex with men um I had had sex with females as well at that point I had explored my sexuality I wasn't always like confident in it I think like I definitely um would lubricate with alcohol I mean still to this day there's shame with with uh get queer sex or gay sex you know i grew up like after post kind of the aids like crisis that happened and i would hear stuff about that if you have sex you're going to get this and like we didn't have the education like no one taught us in school that what had happened for aids and how it had changed and all of the pioneering medicine and the ways of treatment and things that we have available now because even though it affects everyone it was predominantly seen as something that was for gay men you know okay yes yeah so that was something i came up after that and i can't even imagine like going through that like being sexual during that period like it must have been so difficult and horrendous to not feel so much shame because of the stigma that society has done but like we came from post post that and like there was like an air of acceptance like oh it's okay to be gay blah blah even though the language that was used in kind of schools and college was like oh that's so gay like gay was used as a derogatory you know yes so i would i would say it i'm not like i would say it not just because it was it was the language that's interesting like not even not even putting two and two together you know that that is a negative about my identity my sexuality or like my exploration of that um but yeah i remember like my first sexual experience being horrendous and it was like with a guy that was quite a lot older than me to be honest like for my age um and yeah it didn't end well for your first time and that was like I mean that put me off to begin with to be honest you know it puts you off of what sex I was afraid of it for a while I think I didn't know I didn't know what it was meant to look like like i didn't know like um obviously you had seen porn and stuff at that point but like porn is a certain image of like what sex is i didn't always enjoy the like kind of sometimes the hookup seedyness of the night out thing like meeting some random like it was something that i struggled with so i was a bit more of a party boy at the time and sex wasn't necessarily like a focus for me just going out and get wasted was really was the focus this is a great myth for us to demystify and that is is you are not the exception you are the rule most people have low satisfaction sex in their first experience yeah and as a result then are turned off on it and it makes sense yeah you experience something for the first time you didn't have a good time you don't want to do it again yeah exactly but i think that the the script that we're fed is you no, you should want it again.

29:12Yeah. That's your fault. That's your issue. You're the problem. Yeah. And I think it's important for us to say, no, this is what happens more often than not. So you are the rule then. You're not the exception. I am short. Obviously, before I put these shoes on, you know, like a lot shorter. And I was kind of slimmer. And so therefore, within gay stereotypes, which I was learning about and hearing about, people automatically assumed that I would take a certain position, you know, and I didn't know necessarily, I hadn't learned about what, how, how that works, what that is, like, seen it, but, like, I kind of was automatically, like, put into a box, or, like, put into a, like, an idea of what I had to be, and, like, I had to go for this type of guy, and, like, I don't know, it was always a bit weird for me, it felt too rigid, and, like, not right, all we ever learned about was, like, putting a condom on a banana and male to female sex you know there was no nuance there was no understanding of other people's gender identities so much nuance is missed in education because so therefore i think that's harmful when it comes to being uh going into having sex because learning just about one type of sex is harmful for everyone else that doesn't experience that you know yes and i think it feeds into like the the narrative that everything else is wrong and this is how it should be and I think that's linked with so much the trauma that queer people have with with sex and it's not just gay sex it's it's sex for trans people but like the male gaze is has has impacted how the entire world views sexuality like you grow up with like Disney and everything with a male and a female prince and a princess and it's so stereotypical when it comes to gender yes and again there's no nuance like the damsel in distress is saved by the strong prince right and like that's the example of masculinity and femininity and femininity is seen as the weaker and like that's that's an issue that affects i think every single person on the planet for for many years i felt victim to the script, you know, to this narrative.

31:25I remember in New York in particular, and a lot of it, and this will definitely get us into dangerous territory, but I will put this out is I think that, you know, this is where organized religion plays a strong role. Yeah, totally. Right. And I distinctly remember the script that was handed to me was that if you are gay or if you are part of the queer community, you are hypersexual. And not only are you hypersexual, but you are a sexual predator. Yeah. It's crazy to me that that's allowed, like, those... And it's still to this day, it's been perpetuated now with trans people. Like, there's no truth to back up the evidence that a trans person is going to be...

32:07is going to take away women's rights and is also a harm to other people. It's actually demonising an already marginalised group that just want equal rights. And I think we need to actually get to a resolution where there's a middle ground because people are being harmed. There's trans people that we're losing. Their lives are getting taken. Their identities are being taken away. Access to healthcare. They are being stripped away of basic dignity as human beings and not listened to. But it's also, it teeters onto queerphobia, femphobia. It's all kind of linked under misogyny in a way. It is. It's all linked.

32:44And when you look at the result, it's disastrous. So we recently had Ella Morgan on. love ella right transgender woman and we looked at how in the transgender community there's a much higher rate of suicidal ideation yeah and taking of one's life and lower employment and higher alcohol and drug usage and then you look throughout the queer community and then you realize oh my god drug usage alcoholism is rampant yeah why because of what we're talking about yeah because anytime that you have society further marginalizing or shunning you you are then in pain and you seek to sell without nothing maybe yes yes and and i want to get to this because in your story you have some experience with this totally right and i would love to know at what point in your journey do you feel like you've gone from recreational usage of uh is it drugs and alcohol uh drugs alcohol i would mainly say it was drugs though drugs alcohol was never really like yeah i didn't like a hangover okay okay so at what point do you go from recreational usage of drugs to abusing drugs like if i look at my family history um in my on my grandparents side not my mom and dad but like grandparents above like three out of four have gone due to drug and alcohol related uh problems like issues like so i definitely know that there's like kind of some sort of 50 genetic and then i guess the circumstances was i would like a good time I was a fun person like I would be we would go out and party and have a great time it was fun at some points like it wasn't always bad but then I think I would enjoy myself and there were points I think in my early 20s when like the wouldn't want the party to stop so we'd keep going for a bit longer than we probably should and that's that was my first experience of like kicking the ass out of it and go take it a bit too far but then that continued a bit to the point where i i stopped for many many years like i had a real big long break from uh abusing drugs up until kind of just after drag race okay so the drugs that you're abusing can we go through them what what specifically because yeah i was i was doing some research on this but but specifically do you recall which there was i mean throughout the years i think it's it's it's varied like because i would also say um when i've spoken to my therapist about it like it's never just one drug over the years i've i mean i've used kind of like lots of different drugs um cocaine ketamine methadrone which is quite prevalent in the gay community uh ghb um after like yeah i think they'd be the the ones that like have been problems.

35:53Okay. All right. So two of those that you just mentioned, and this is a term that I had not known until I was researching for this conversation. Is it chemsex? So chemsex is definitely a real big issue that's happening right now. Okay. Please explain this because this is related to the drug usage. So I guess like it's a term that was kind of, I guess the first time I heard it would have been about 2014. Okay. And it was a term again linked to kind of gay men that have sex with men. um right now it's a it's an epidemic that's happening massively like epidemic it's just it's a crisis i think there's a problem um more so than ever before i think this is a really important thing to talk about actually because like not not necessarily saying that like this is my experience but i think as as a human a lot of people have used alcohol or drugs in a sexual way to like enhance or like make it more pleasurable especially drinking like that's so common you know you go to a bar you pick up like i've definitely experienced that but within the queer community like we said there's a lot of shame we're seeing like i've recently seen the studies like the rise is is crazy we're the worst place in europe for this uh crisis that's happening the uk the uk london london city in the europe people there's not enough done being done about it like i basically heard on the news this morning that a lady's um alpaca got taken which is really sad but there's also three gay men dying a month you know in london and we're not hearing about it no one's talking about it so then specifically what is chem sex i mean it's just having sex under the influence of of any drug or specific it could be any drug i think i'm pretty sure it can i think that like term was kind of just coined as just uh yeah chem sex was like within the queer community but it's i mean like it's not just to the queer community i think like it could be used in any any time okay that's fair and then and then in terms of the the more prevalent drugs used in chem sex i see it's uh metaphenamine so crystal meth uh ghb right yeah in particular so when these drugs are being used during sex but what what you just said that i didn't see anywhere in the research is you linked it to the use is is directly because of the shame right so it comes to as well we're not going out as much since the pandemic covid has been a big hit on the community in general okay not just our community but like everyone and like no one's going out as much nightclubs are shutting down why is that well people don't need to go out now to meet other people they can just go on an app and hook up with someone you can basically if you wanted to find a party at any time of the day i don't know you can't walk down the road and feel comfortable The right is rising at the minute.

38:38And with that comes things going underground a bit more. Yes. Like people are being scared to be more themselves. And I think there's a real that's happening a lot more. Again, there's definitely shame with sex. I think like I'd still say I feel not all the time, actually. But like I have felt shame over the years for being queer. So I think there's a definite rise in what's happening behind closed doors in retaliation with that, you know. And to your point, an epidemic with regard to what's happening, because so to follow up with some of these stats, in the past decade, 1 ,000 deaths have been linked to possible chem sex related causes.

39:162019 survey of 2 ,700 gay and bisexual men who use GHB, 28 percent reported having been assaulted. it i mean it's just and the numbers go on you talked about three people dying per month from chem sex in london yeah it's crazy three so you're right it's like the alpaca i'm sorry about that yeah but there's three men dying every month in london it's getting worse i think like it's it's something that's not really been spoke spoke about because of shame like there's so much around it and like i over the years have been part of the community a lot in different ways and i've seen firsthand like um over in clubbing spaces like the the change of drugs that have used you know like clubs and drugs have always gone together but I think like the harder stuff like that are being used in those spaces and it's dangerous and I think there's no not enough harm reduction there's not enough information out there there's not enough people speaking about it to protect it And I think the community, we need to come together and allow people to have the space to be open and know that there are spaces to go to, you know.

40:28We need more spaces that are sober. We need more spaces that are community driven, that aren't necessarily sex orientated or aren't necessarily just clubbing, you know. And my worry is that if we aren't able to kind of speak about it within the community first, it's going to become another moral panic. and it's going to be used against the community, it feels right now really hostile. So how does the straight community give true allyship to the queer community? Because, you know, true, without placating, you know, without just attending Pride and, you know, and that's it. How does the straight community give true allyship?

41:12I think it's just about... If you hear something that you know... isn't right information challenge it like it might be uncomfortable but it's only going to get worse you know like the the way that language and the rhetoric has changed over the years has been very dark and it's insidious we just need to be more open to each other and actually know that the common enemy is the patriarchal standards that are creating all of this you know and like it's not like a fuck the patriarchy thing in a way it kind of is but like it all we can all coexist if we were to all just understand that that person has a different life experience to me but that's okay yes it's okay to be different it's also okay it's okay to not have an opinion on everything as well and that's me just sat here after having opinions but like it's okay to not have to say something on social media or like social media is a big thing that needs to be to be not policed but like there needs to be something done because i feel like the algorithms are just building more hate because we are kept into echo chambers we don't see anything outside of our own thoughts and other people's thoughts we're not challenged with things the media want the polarization from both sides because then it keeps you looking at the real problems like the state of the economy the fact that people can't put food on their table the fact that we have a homeless crisis the fact that the world is in such a kind of really difficult time we've got climate change happening there's discussions about whether we can move to mars but instead of sorting those problems out it's who's pissing in the bathroom is the main issue and like we need to be like why are you so obsessed with the what's going on in the toilet let people piss in peace that is the boonies running for uh prime minister piss in peace piss in peace i mean they've been speaking about it for years but it's but these are facts you know there's signal and there's noise uh and we oftentimes we we're distracted by the noise and then we lose track of of the signal and and i think that's that's what they want though the whoever they are but you know what i mean like i believe that people want the best for most people inherently yes but i think the media plays against the idea of your community or your tribe because it then it groups people so much so then you are afraid of that person and you won't give milk to that person the next door neighbor even though most religion is meant to say love thy neighbor you know and I think that's something that we're all missing is just loving each other because I mean I completely agree I It is divide and conquer.

43:59And I think this is why these conversations are so important is because we're bringing nuance to the world. You know, the world typically moves off of fear. This is this is what we do. Yeah. And as if we feel threatened or we feel our families threatened or we feel our value system is threatened, then the objective is to eliminate the threat opposed to then reevaluate the values in the first place. Totally. I was talking with your show sponsor, Tinder, and they wanted to know if you've ever been on a date that ended up in an unexpected way. Do you have anything like that? Oh, absolutely. Endless, endless stories.

44:36I mean, one in particular is that when Jill and I were dating, we went to a slam poetry competition, which I will say I knew nothing about slam poetry. And that's when I learned that you snap your fingers, right, when you applaud. I specifically went there because I wanted to impress Jill so that I can get a little, I'll say, bonus afterwards, you know. But what I learned through one of the poets is that we are all artists. The poet specifically said we are all artists. And that triggered something in me. It made me click to the point where I realized that I wanted to create. I wanted to figure out how to do that.

45:11So afterwards, we went out to eat, Jill and I, and we started talking about creating art together. And I learned from that date that the date isn't just about the other person. It's not about your physical pleasure. It's not about their physical pleasure. It's about what you can learn about life, about yourself. It was an unexpected outcome from a date. So wherever a date may lead, it starts with a swipe. That's why you need to download Tinder.

45:43Are you ready? That's probably too much. Let me see. How about everyone? Everyone. Everyone. Oh, my God. Sheffield. chef uh scott how do you say this is it sheffield chef sheffield sheffield man at least this isn't live right well no but that's about to change isn't it so we are going to do we need to talk live for the first time the magic is in the conversation so we'll have a very special guest you know what's probably most cool about this is this will be the first time that the we need to talk community will come together in person. You know, I'm curious to see what does everyone look like?

46:25What do they smell like? Sheffield, July 5th at the Crucible Theatre. So to get tickets, very simple. It's crossedwires.live. It's very important to buy tickets quickly because they will go fast. We'll make sure that there's a link below.

46:45I'm curious, at university, What did you study? I studied journalism. You studied journalism. I studied journalism, but I also went on to do a master's at Goldsmiths in human rights. Did you? Look at that. Look, okay. And then I got an honorary fellowship from Goldsmiths for conversations around gender, which was amazing. Look at that. See, these are facts I don't think people know. Yeah. So at that point, what was your career trajectory? What did you want to do? I was very politically engaged, but it was at a time when Corbyn was, Jeremy Corbyn was, he'd just become the Labour leader. It was such an energetic time.

47:34I would write for some left-wing newspapers, and I'd do certain pieces where I'd go to, like I was in Calais for a bit and seeing what was going on. but then I also felt like I don't like this what I'm doing here I'm like going to write an article about this fucking disaster that's happening while I'm gonna get to go home and like go to well these people do you know what I mean I felt very like I don't know if this is right for me like I don't know if this is like this kind of idea of invest me being an investigative journalist it didn't sit right morally in a way so I then decided to put a wig on my head as you do you know as you do yeah i'm gonna think i should do this yeah it's like because i'm i'm questioning what what am i gonna do with my life maybe this is what i should do there you go do it wake up my head i entered a drag like a competition at the glory back in 2017 so if there's one going you should do it was the was that uh 2017 was that the lip sync was lip sync 1000 i watched that did you i'm i've watched everything of yours can i say this all connects now yeah because if i recall when you were doing that 2017 that entire when you walked on stage the entire first couple minutes was political yeah i mean i've that's i've always tried to bring that into my my drag in a way yes in a way and i think that was that for me that was that was drag like that was having something to say on stage like I'd never done it before you know I was always a bit of a show pony when I was younger like I stopped I would dance but I stopped dancing like 13 again pressures of being younger I stopped that which I wish I didn't but I loved performing I loved dancing I wasn't always told that I was creative because I was shit at art I was shit at drawing so I was told in school oh you're not very good so even though I loved music and fashion and all of these things, I never really had access to that.

49:38So this was quite a new world to me. But there was something in me that was like, you need to do this. You can do this. There was a belief. But where is it? I mean, because, okay, so I think drag in itself is an area that I'm fascinated by. How long have you got? Because we can keep going. Yeah, let me get, here, take my water. I haven't had this. Take this water. Okay, thank you very much. You got it. Because the reason why I'm so fascinated is because I thought drag was a new concept. But I didn't realize that this is, I mean, from what I see is since 16th, 17th century. Oh, yeah. You know, you had in Shakespearean theater, men playing the role of women.

50:25Women weren't allowed to play the theater, were they? Not allowed to play. Patriarchy in full effect. and it was was it literally the the robes that were dragging along the ground and this is where drag drag yeah yeah and i think it was like drag and dressed as girl oh dressed as girl but then that's i don't know where they are i sweat that's what my granddad's told me okay it might not be right i mean he i don't know why he'd know you never know you might know love yeah i love him i mean he's very supportive of me now like he's come to a lot of my things um but but even so how like when do you first become aware of drag i will well first being aware of drag was when i was younger um first memory was walking through soho with my mom and my stepdad okay um so ray and my mom and i remember being told to look for the adam's apple yeah my mom said it i know look for the like they're like she was like they'd be very glamorous and tall but look for the adam's apple that's how you'll tell okay so that was my first like thinking of it and i remember seeing and being like oh wow like very confused but in like not a weird way not like oh confused enough what like oh that's cool okay like that's interesting like why what is this you know like and then also i'd say so that was that one and then lily savage was an iconic drag queen from England, from the UK, funny as anything, rough as nails, like comedy gold.

52:00And they were mainstream, you know? But what was drag? Because this is the part that confused me too. Is drag the dressing and performance? It's definitely changed, I think, over time. over time i think drag used to be very just like very underground very like wink wink nudge nudge like in the uk and the us i think they're very different interesting so us has a lot more pageant which is like the the idea of like in drag in dragon drag queen sense looking like a woman like the female illusion whereas in the uk it was less about the polish less about the perfection more about the humor more about the fun more about the message like more about what you were saying it was not necessarily about the whole like trying to look like a woman and I still feed into that narrative like I my drag if it is if people would still call it drag I don't know I call it me you know like it's an extension of me um I love fashion and it's a way to utilize my identity in different ways you know but i don't necessarily i don't tuck i don't pad i don't do anything to kind of change my body to look like a female body because i firstly think everyone's body's different so we shouldn't be like feeding into like one particular stereotype of what that shape is and two i'm not trying to be a woman i'm just trying to be me and everyone knows what i've got between my legs and everyone knows like so i'm not trying you know i mean like sure not that i'm like having it on show but I'm like I choose not to do those things like the things like padding and putting boobs on like I've done it in the past but now I'm like no this is me so that's what drag is to me okay and drag I think is just drag I think is your heightened version or like your most um whether it's masculine or feminine because drag can be drag kings too you know like there's not just drag queens like there's a spectrum of drag again it's a performance it's an art you know And so when you decided that this is an art that you wanted to go deeper into, it was about expression.

54:18Totally about gender expression. Yeah. OK. And it was tapping into a truer sense of identity as well. It was exploring and understanding that the binary doesn't exist like the binary. The binary exists, but you can live beyond the binary and play with the binary and have fun with the binary, you know. and like it was East London drag is to me like the top tier like it's like the most kind of creative ruckus silly drag and I came from like incredible performers and artists like um Johnny Woo and John Sizzle who owned the glory they now own the divine they are pioneers in like the field like they are legendary and it's it's it's a space to allow yourself not to be so serious and I think that's the best style of drag is if and I don't do it as much now like I don't do standing on stage performing to an audience um in the way that I used to or but like if a drag drag artist can host the room and has you in the palm of their hand they can say anything and you know every single person in that room is in a safe space I don't know I'm holding the mic but but everyone's in a safe space and they're allowed to come in on the journey and it's meant to take you out of the world that's happening whether it's taking the piss out of the world that's happening but in those spaces it's okay to be yourself yes and that's what is so important about those spaces and losing those spaces is is terrifying because i feel like they were so formative for me they're so formative for a lot of people and like i think the idea of like the demonization of drag and what that is is again it's a threat to the patriarchal ideals of what gender and the binary is because we play around with it yes we use it as performance you know because we do every day but but do you feel as if there is a threat to to drag today because at least from maybe it's because um i've opened my mind of you know more um is that i feel like like i feel like wow my god drags everywhere like it's everywhere i'm going to events there you know there's a drag queen hosting the event yeah and and i feel you know i've gone to drag shows you You know, so it's one of those, you know, you see obviously drag race on TV, which is incredibly popular.

56:36So to me, it feels like the popularity has increased. But do you feel like there's has the popularity increased or no? And then where's the demonization coming from? So I think two points here. I think the first one is I feel like it has peaked and it's been going back down. And I think that has that is also in response to what's been happening with the pendulum swinging back to the right and like the conversations getting a lot more conservative and and the approach to views and ideologies being like restricted and like conversations around gender and trans people like is becoming so more toxic.

57:13And people can't actually differentiate that drag is a performance. And like you can be trans and do drag, but it's not the same thing. They are two completely different things, you know. and with that I think just queerness in general is being kind of um seen just being ushered in a different way I've definitely noticed I think last year at pride there was like 47 percent less brands than the year before and this is what the big problem where we always talk about like the pink washing of uh or the pink pound like are you supporting us or are you just profiting off us at this time and are you going to be there when it gets hard and it's getting harder you know spaces we're losing spaces we're losing performers we're losing artists we're losing people that are struggling because of the weight of the world at the minute and how toxic it's become and that's why spaces and prides are so important and that's when you go back to your point about being an ally that's what is so important like showing up now when it's getting harder you know okay I think that's to me is the main thing but I say about the popularization of drag we have definitely seen I've had amazing opportunities like I was in vogue like what the hell like that's crazy as a queer working class kid as a drag artist to get to go into those spaces a lot of things I've got to do is mind-blowing but I'm worried that now that there's there's a lot more drag and there's a lot less opportunities happening now because I think people are brands are too scared um conversations on tv turn toxic more so than i've seen in many many years um i've like there were drag artists that were on things over christmas and mainstream stuff and the hate online was it was volatile right you know and it wasn't necessarily like that five years ago so i think we're in a weird time where um there has been a shift in in people's either consciousness darkness about what drag is or about queerness in general or they never really got it in the first place or understood it and they found other people that also don't and that has bred more hate okay with the algorithms online and social media so i think there's a lot with it but i mean drag will always exist like we're not meant to be mainstream i don't think like drag is meant to be a bit underground and cheeky you know and that's when it's the best when it's raw and real So drag will forever go on.

59:35Okay. But I feel like maybe we might have seen the peak of, for now, anyway. Okay. That's interesting. That's interesting. So if we go back to that competition that I saw you in. Yes. So that's at the Glory. This was your first. Yeah. This is your first drag competition. I pissed on Donald Trump in my performance. Yeah. Not really. I saw it because that was the first Donald Trump. Yes. It was the first time around. First time around. Yeah, first time around. Look at that. Who would have thought what would have happened? So that performance, I'm curious about your lifestyle, though, at this point.

1:00:12No drugs? No drugs. So you've quit? I wasn't fully sober, but I was not using drugs, yeah. Okay, so you're not using drugs. I smoked... No, I wasn't smoking weed. Okay. It's interesting. Every time I was saying, smoking weed doesn't count. I know. It doesn't count. I mean, apparently it does here, so. All right, fair. So you were, okay, so that, and then in terms of your identity, sexual identity.