Jamelia EXCLUSIVE: The Dark Side of Being A SUPERSTAR! This is My Truth. Fame wasn't worth it!

36:17Cuando sello, este punto está realizado el sovereignty. Yo estoy en la charts. Y no estoy... Lo que ocurrió en el mismo tiempo. Lo que seais, los carros. ¿Qué hiciste? ¿Qué hiciste? Me released Money. Me released my first album, Drama. I would have been promoting that up and down the UK. I could see how you were getting so much love and attention. Yeah. But your brothers at home, perhaps they were getting love and attention elsewhere. Yes. Okay. And this is the thing. I think it's really important to know that none of us were insulated from the perils of growing up in the inner city. I would describe maybe at the same age, not the same time, but the same ages we were groomed.

37:14So I was groomed at 16 into a relationship and my brothers were groomed to go onto the streets. Interesting. At around the same age Around when they were like 16 And It's really strange Like again These are things that I realised In adulthood like in my 30s Like hold on That's isn't that Because I love to read I love to learn I love to learn about psychology In particular And then I also love to apply lo que he aprende a mí mismo. No es muy grande en la cáncel. Estoy muy grande en conversaciones conmigo y self-reflexión. Es lo que yo enjoy haciendo. Así que, se velo a la vuelta en la childhood y realiza...

38:07Esa es la grooming. Sí, 100%. Grooming es interesante porque es un termo que ha just recently begun a ser usado más y más. ¿Cómo definiría grooming? So, cuando un older person spots a vulnerabilidad en un joven, particularly, you know, el niño que... Por ejemplo, mi mamá fue un increíble trabajo y una inspiración de mi cuando se trata de la vida, pero no era la vida, pero no era la vida. No era la vida, no era la vida. Entonces, nosotros pudimos hacer lo que queríamos. Y en 15, 16, nosotros necesitamos protección, que mi mamá fue unable de provide y también y también hay esto con boys y girls también hay un diferencia mi brothers fueron allowed y hacer cosas que no me wasn't allowed a hacer a suerte de suerte pero sí yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo

39:18a better pair of trainers and then you know do you want to make some money do you want to make some big boy money do you know what I mean and it slowly became that and then he became the big boy do you know what I mean he became the guy or the second second in command this is another thing I have to be transparent about I don't really know how it works because I've not experienced it I've not I wasn't a part of it I only know what I've been told pero lo que yo estoy seguro es que mi brothers fueron groomed solo como yo y que la grooming fue able a suceder porque los superhacientes y creo que es tan eloquente porque cuando se trata de grooming o cuando se trata de con respecto a las mujeres o de las mujeres que se han coerced into sex whereas it happens at high frequency for our young men especially into gang culture so is this what happened is that your brothers were groomed into gang culture yeah absolutely and again it's not something I can talk about at length because I don't I wasn't there to see it happening I was never privy to it so this is another thing when you are You may be in close proximity to crime But not be aware of it I just had my brothers And they're not telling you Oh my gosh I know If I was to describe my brothers to you And someone else was to describe my brothers You could have two totally different explanations To me my brothers Just silly We spent all of our days just cackling Just laughing Bustin joke That was our life So So when I was I think I was 22 I think I might have been about 22 My brother was arrested For murder I knew nothing about it Obviously And obviously I'm just like My brother would never do anything like that So there's got to be a mistake Right.

41:42I paid for lawyers and all, because I'm just like, there's no way he did this. There's no way. And then he was convicted and got 18 years. And like, yeah, that was earth shattering, you know, but all while. So it's on the front pages of the newspapers because I'm also number one in Australia. I'm also on every TV station So going back to what I was mentioning earlier My mom found it very hard to celebrate me Because it also meant she's also the mom of her murderer Yeah You know, I'm curious Because you talked about how there was a dynamic shift Yeah When you started earning Yeah So that dynamic shift must have exacerbated as you're earning more, as you're becoming more popular.

42:43Did you ever think, I'm actually one of the reasons why this is happening to my brother? Did you ever put any blame on yourself? I think I felt like everything changed when I left the household. Because even though I didn't move out, I was away more and more. I was literally, you know, going to Australia for two weeks or going to, you know, Europe or, you know, and I'm literally living this life like I'm going on a private jet for two days to go and promote my single in France. Like, I'm living a life so far removed from that, that my family's living. I've bought them a house and they live in a nicer area.

43:28But, you know, I haven't, I didn't have the knowledge that in order to change someone's life, you need to change their whole infrastructure. It's not good enough just to move them from one area to another, you know. Y otra que cisne que la vivimos en esta casa significa que particularmente no es lo que quieres hacer ybesуєtse bien lo que es familiar porque si de type del sekpito, ya no… Entonces, cada cierto ambienteенный es creativo, todo el mundo저 건강. Todo el el después inspiro. Quiaestuamente haces un blandito. Y eso significa que estoy creyendo porque, you know, mi mamá drives a nice car y she's got a beautiful house y, you know, there's gates outside the house now so I'm like, you know, I've done my, you know, I've done my thing that's kind of like how I felt but I didn't, looking back I think I feel like had I experienced that now I would have done something totally different And I feel like I could have changed the trajectory of my brother's lives for sure.

44:45You feel responsible for what happened to your brother. And it's your brothers. Yeah, two younger brothers. Two younger brothers. Yeah, within years of each other, they were basically in and out of prison.

45:07Before my brother was convicted for 18 years He'd been in prison before Maybe a couple of times Then my younger brother was in and out of prison And

45:20Yeah It's really difficult for me to speak about it Because I feel like I'm speaking about it As an outsider Not as someone who experienced this I experienced the consequences of the aftermath of when my brother went inside for 18 years. He had two children by that point. So I then become responsible for the children. I fostered them. They lived with me. And yeah, yeah. At what age? On and off for years. So sometimes they would go home. But all of my nieces and nephews became my children. y decmented Side answer is a Juan carne caso no nephews that I don't know and I hate that like I absolutely hate that because my older nieces and nephews I'm so close with them as I said like with my brothers being in and out of prison I became you know I just became another parent to my nieces and nephews which I loved by the way I love having that relationship but this is such enormous responsibility for someone who has just started their career.

46:47And I think what's so interesting is everyone's looking at Jamelia going to Australia on the private jet sending money thinking she's living her best life that they have no idea what's actually happening. Oh gosh, yeah. And I think there's that. I was living this constant duality up until very recently, by the way. y también mem roster mi enteral lo un creo el protocol es cuando ellas confes rondas cuando labia porque han querido深 un para un m 20 por un

47:34le otra

47:39vem muylib un ha me un ha me Me, me going to, you know, do prison visits and bring my, bring my kids and my niece and nephews to go and see their dad. Like that's, that's my life. You know, that's my, you know, it's my heart. It's, it's, it's something that, you know, my duty, I think. And then me going to be on stage for me is that's just my job. y y y y no es es silly pero expecte other people to see as me just as the same as someone going to do a nine to five like you know you don't broadcast your private life at your nine to five and why should I and I think I fought very heavily against that on several occasions because number one my family did not choose what I chose to do with my life they did not choose to have a a life in the public eye I did and so the consequences that before me and my children I feel like their decisions that I've made on mine and my children's behalf and so it's my responsibility to protect them but when it comes to my brothers that's I'm just not I'm just not cool with them being demonized in the press and it's going to sound like an insane thing to say but like there are so many people who commit crimes for so many different reasons and I'm not justifying anything but I'm just saying that they get to do their journeys in a way that they get to do their journeys in a way in which they can go back out into the world and be anonymous or rebuild their lives but printing my brothers en la ilumina media y más, nada más como lo tengo.

49:35Es duro, over a new leaf or choose to change their lives or, you know, try to, yeah, try to change their lives for the better. They have a different experience because you type their name in and you've got all these front covers. You see these articles. Yeah. And they have nothing to do with it. And I'm not, it sounds crazy because it sounds like such a crazy thing to say. But, you know, I don't believe it is. Yeah. And a matter de fact, there have been several guests who have sat here and have said the exact same thing with regard to they chose this path that has led them to celebrity. Their family didn't choose that, but their family bears the consequences.

50:22And typically it's the consequence of media. But you said something there that I have to go back to because you said reflecting back you realize that you could have done things differently. ¿Qué ha cambiado? Oh, solo... Just no... No he ha cambiado la carrera. ¿Rale? Yeah, solo... I feel like... Si no hubiera sido un singa... I'd probably have a happier familia. I think that I'd have... A lovely relationship with... With my family. Just because... I think one of the things... That people don't understand is like... Especially in the time where I... that I began my career the tabloids they were relentless I had I had my phone hacked did you yeah so there were things so I lost friendships I lost you know and because I was paranoid thinking that people around me were selling people selling stories for the papers okay porque están sin hardcore las cosas que se hace hacer si de repente siectan a la promotora era de compitination siempre quise siempre estáta en esa página de la planificación donde era siempre and thenuję всегда siempre para la

51:51Uneanza una bilar, una cosa una entretien excluyente excluyente Es so scary Y se sent k Sí

52:02No calling the paps and you know and that's fine i like no no shade to them whatsoever but that's never been me that was not you yeah i i've never i've never wanted that side of things you know the phone hacking because i see that this comes up many times i see yeah uh harry prince harry just won a a phone hacking yeah um suit yeah so with the phone hacking yeah was that press that that's y eso es que se hagan su teléfono y están buscando por cualquier tipo de mensaje así que se hagan su teléfono cada día y muchas veces yo voy a ver mi mensajes y es como pero no sé si lo han visto pero no sé si lo han hecho yo he encontrado que mi teléfono fue hacked en 2017 y yo he sued el papá y y fue muy bien I didn't know this So it was press That hacked your phone For years For over 10 years Yes, for over 10 years So for instance, things like Revealing that I was pregnant Before I was ready to do so Or before I probably told my family members I probably made an appointment To go to the hospital Or whatever And so they can hear all my messages Nнить a la fe это Es um recovery Nene Of course I have Beleza Went hakkvez El Cadáver El D publishing

53:51E Soy D y y y obviamente mi daughters were like we don't know who that man is y

54:07so for me that feels like someone is trying to kidnap my children that's what it feels like but they're doing it for a story to talk to my children to try and interview them and so it was at that point where I took my children out of school y decidió homeschool. Y yo still homeschool. Yo homeschool mi 7-year-old. Yo, yo tenía no idea de esto. Yo tenía no idea. Yo tenía que pensar que que tu tu voz hacía por 10, que es un décado de cada mensaje que llegaba en y que llegaba. Sí. Yo puedo ver la paranoia que viene con eso. Así que ahora yo better entender pero quiero decir que esto es lo que estás diciendo.

54:48Así que si estás diciendo que si puedes volver 15 en esa oficina, lo que hubiera usted? Yo hubiera usted no. Yo hubiera usted no. Yo hubiera usted no. Porque... I've enjoyed obscene amounts of money. it doesn't make you happy it doesn't make you happy especially if you're not in an environment where you have you know your people like I've never been someone who was like impressed by money I I like that I have money now because of what it's allowed me to do with my life now but like I'm not earning like anywhere near what I was at the height of my fame but when I was at the height of my fame I think that was my most unhappy my most paranoid and my most isolated because someone around me is making money from me you know and everyone was targeted my my ex-boyfriend my dad um my my ex-husband even even just like little things like what my children were doing at school right you know and then obviously like my brothers my mom it it just it just becomes so intrusive and as i said like they didn't choose this no you know and so i feel like i chose this for them i've chosen of you know i i'm not the only person experiencing this paranoia you know It also means that, you know, my brother's not safe in jail because he's, you know, everyone knows who his sister is.

56:39So now because everyone knows who his sister is, it causes him to have issues. Issues. Is this why? Because one thing I was looking at. Yeah. I looked at your discography. Yeah. And I was looking at when the first, so it was really 1999. Yeah. Is when you released a debut single, So High. yeah yeah your last album yeah which is your third album yes 2006 yeah seven years and then you that's it yeah it's a wrap yeah because for me it was like it's it's too much it is too much and so even though it's seven years i signed my record deal at 15 so between 15 and 18 so it's so to me it's like that's 10 years and so and by that point i was i was just i was just done i was done because this is the thing that's one thing that's happening but then then there's there's this idea that if you're an r &b singer a black woman you know you need to have this hyper sexualized um persona and i was fighting against that so much like i i i definitely fell into it at first and I loved the attention.

57:58And how does that come about? Because I know when I was talking to Cher Lloyd, what she was saying was blowing my mind. She said, management sat me down. They said you should have a shorter skirt. Is that? Yeah. And it's like, well, for me, I'd say it was more subtle because of my personality. Because if you look at pictures at the beginning of my career, I was in my trainers. I was in like baggy trousers I was more I was more like Aaliyah you know that was like my my vibe and then then it became um I think a huge turning point for me was um Naomi Campbell pulled out of presenting an award at the Brits and so they asked me to present it and then they did this whole thing that I was going to replace Naomi Campbell I got a modeling contract off the back of it um and it was kind of like I was a sexy black girl now and so okay I think I feel like this is important I was very small for my age for a very very long time I've always looked way younger than I actually am and so I think for me at that age I must have been about 23 24 to be seen as sexy was like oh my gosh me okay and so I definitely fed into it I definitely fed into it and and and lapped it up and so you know when they suggested shorter skirts you know um and I mean like really that you could I was on top of the pops and my my bottom was on top of the pops like it was when I look at it now you know you do shows and they'd be perhaps underneath your skirt taking pictures and and I'm not gonna I won't lie to you I I was just like you know I know what shot they want so I'll make sure they get it but then having a daughter when she's a baby it didn't matter but I'd say like so 2000 I had my second daughter in 2005 I had my first daughter in 2000 so 2001 and then my um my second daughter in 2005 and seeing my then four-year-old copying my moves copying my my my music videos and stuff like that I was just like nah and it was again it wasn't just because it was my daughter it was like this is everyone's daughter right and i remember you know going in and saying i'm i i don't want to do that anymore i don't want to influence people's daughters to be sexual you know my child is four right and so there are other four-year-olds and and just little girls who are big fans of mine yes why am i selling this to them yes yes and then it became it became this thing that this is what r &b singers do if you want to be r &b then this is what you do and i was just like no how far do they push it because you know in in Cher's episode yeah uh or should i say in her conversation yeah what really stood out to me was when she said she was in a management meeting her husband is with her yeah and they tell her to go chase justin bieber down at a club get photos with him yeah And even have a full-on relationship with him in order to promote her album.

1:01:29Same. So did anything along those lines happen to you where you were directed at, you should get with this person or you should do, you know, something that was just out of your nature? So, you know that Jamaican saying, Yes. I think they knew not to have those type of conversations with me. But that doesn't mean that those conversations weren't had. like I remember I remember once having a conversation where you know we started on a conversation about me going over to America and the conversation was what are you willing to do and I was like what do you mean and another artist was mentioned and I was told what this artist was willing to do obviously I'm not going to mention who that is but what was that artist willing to do to sleep with people and I was just like okay I'm out like I'm out because if that's if that's what I need to do if my singing ability is not enough for me to make it it was because basically what they were saying is if you sleep with the right people then you get better opportunities so the suggestion was um there were certain producers you know like you know set some some producers that I'm a huge fan of I thought and the thing is obviously the conversation didn't even get to a stage where I'm finding out how it's going to be done because it was just a absolute no goal um and when I was told about this artist I remember this artist um was a younger artist she was younger than me and I remember just being absolutely horrified and feeling yeah just just just feeling really awful for her that that she one of the things that I've always been really good at is saying no I've I've been I've been offered honestly that like I've been offered opportunities where I've you know I could have retired and I would say no because they either compromise my integrity they go against my my morals or my values um and much to the dismay of you know my management at the time that there are a lot of things I'm not willing to do for a chick but but what are those opportunities or is it um I mean because I would imagine if it's that much money it's a type of partnership is it where um okay so no so for example um okay okay this um this isn't isn't an extreme example but my reason is because I know myself so for instance I was offered I was offered a quarter of a million to do big brother okay you know what big brother is yes yeah okay yes and I just knew I I can't sit in a house with people you know I don't know people's hygiene I don't know people's how you know I think hygiene I'm Jamaican so like the idea was amazing and and and and and i don't know i think there's an element of being a black woman in the entertainment industry no matter what no matter what i'm code switching then no matter what i'm having to show up as a certain version of myself can we can we spend a second for everyone that doesn't know what code switching is okay if you could just okay fill in the blank yes so so code switching is when you for me it's it's kind of censoring myself it's not not being as honest and open I wouldn't say honest but not being as open with every facet of my personality so in certain environments I might I'll just present myself differently to how I'd be if you were in my house and it's not it's not about being comfortable it's about protecting myself bro I I feel especially as a black woman in the entertainment industry especially at the time that I was in the entertainment industry coming up we were few and far between so I automatically became a representative and so I was so straight and narrow you would never catch me drinking you'd never catch me you know I I want to say you never catch me I would never drink Like I would never be caught in any compromising situations or scenarios.

1:05:53I would never. I didn't want to embarrass my family. But I also didn't want to embarrass the community of people that looked up to me. I didn't want to embarrass, you know, my aunties that were, you know, that would approach me in the street. Like I, it was really important to me to kind of, yeah, to be able to represent black women well. And so in denying Big Brother, you were saying that you would have had to cross boundaries, be uncomfortable. So a quarter of a million is not doing it for that. It was basically a death certificate for my career. That's how I looked at it because I could have done it.

1:06:32But then that would have been my last check. It would have been the last money I received because I know myself and I know that the walls would have broken down at some stage. And I don't know how that would manifest itself, whether that's in anger, in coming across as, you know, having an attitude. And I've seen it happen so many times. As soon as I speak about something that makes, in particular, white people feel uncomfortable, I'm the bad guy, you know. or even speaking positively about myself, a lot of people find that offensive because on paper, I am a really flawed individual and I get it, I get it, but I have a very high sense of self now, today.

1:07:21And yeah, and people find that offensive and yeah, I feel like doing something like that, yeah, it wouldn't have ended well. yeah I mean I think that's a good example because and I'm sure you're getting multiple offers like that yeah you know time and time again yeah so it's one of those where you but but what I find so interesting is that you now when you look back you would have rather worked in the corner shop oh yeah yeah I I feel it's not that I would have rather had done that because genuinely like I I love, like, I love just being an entertainer. I love singing. I love performing. I love acting.

1:08:08I love, like, even this, like, doing this interview. I feel, I love being a representative. I really do. I love being a representative for women. I love being a representative for mothers, for black women, for black people. Like, I love that, and I love showing up in these spaces. So on that, when you think about, especially at the height of your career, what are some things that you are super proud of that were just like you did and it blew your mind? I think moments like being at Nelson Mandela's house. At his house? At his house. In South Africa? Yeah. Was this the house? This is Johannesburg.

1:08:51In Johannesburg. I've driven by the house. Oh, yeah. And being there and eating dinner. There were like a hundred people. It wasn't like just me and him. But like, and I've met him multiple times. Like, this is someone that we had like off on the wall. You know, whatever we, I remember celebrating when he was released from prison as a child, like, you know, seeing that day. And it was such a historic day. And I've got a picture like me and him chilling. In his house. Like, to me, that's, it's just, it's just insane. Like, it's insane. As I said, doing a song with Beanie Man, going on tour with Usher, being on like multiple private planes, taking my children on private planes, going to Australia, you know, New Zealand and being number one, being the number one, the most played, you know, most played song on radio.

1:09:48Like there are so many, there are so many achievements and accolades that I have that will never, I will never sink in, you know, being, being a, just being successful, like the thing that I love is, is mind blowing to me because there is a part of me that, that never stops being that 15 year old girl. We Need to Talk is quite literally brought to you by Adobe Express, the quick and easy create-anything app from Adobe. The team uses it to create materials for the show, from the cover art to the social posts. But I think you'll get a lot out of it, too. What sets Adobe Express apart is how it puts content creation within reach for everyone, whether you're making a personal vision board, drafting a business manifesto, or creating social content on the go.

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1:12:00Download Tinder today and see where your next date might lead. Just a quick one before we get into the next section. We touch on some sensitive topics, including Jamilia's experience with domestic abuse. If this is a tough subject for you, please watch with care. We've also added links to support charities in the episode description. Your music was the soundtrack to so many people's lives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it truly was. Yeah. The songs, the lyrics. Yeah. And it gave them hope. Yeah, yeah. It gave them inspiration. It gave them a pathway. Yeah. I feel like, yeah, my proudest, the thing that I'm most proud of is my song, Thank You.

1:12:51Yes. So, and the reason I'm so proud of that is because I have been told so many times. I'm going to get upset. Sorry.

1:13:05Sorry. I've been told like so many times that that song saved my life or that song changed my life or that song gave me the strength to leave.

1:13:21I just like, as I said, like, I don't stop being that girl from Birmingham and to, to know that people are here because of a song that I wrote. um it's incredible and and it's it's it's something that like it's it's I wouldn't even just describe it as pride I just I I think it's me walking in my purpose I genuinely believe that I'm meant to share my stories that I'm meant to I'm meant to I meant to share my experiences like if if anyone's followed me or my career you'd know that I'm quite transparent about the things that I go through and it's because of that it's because it's impactful you know can I read some of the lyrics oh would you allow me to do that yeah of with you hit you spit you split ever why every every thank you she's like i wrote this song she said i i wrote every bit of me you stole you broke you're cold you're such a joke to me for every last bruise you gave me for every time I sat in tears for the million ways you hurt me I just want to tell you this you broke my world made me strong thank you messed up my dreams made me strong thank you yeah what was going on in your life at that moment I literally wrote that song in about 20 minutes.

1:15:21And I'd come off the phone after having an argument with my first boyfriend, who is the father of my oldest daughter. And he used to physically abuse me for our entire relationship.

1:15:40and I think me writing that song was kind of me closing the chapter you know it wasn't it wasn't about it was it's not like a venge a vengeful song like I it wasn't about revenge it was more about here's what I say this a lot like there are there are things there are things in my life that have broken me but I'm always proud of what I do with the pieces and that that is something that you know so those were pieces like I was broken at the time because it might sound insane but I didn't I didn't want to be you know I really wanted to have like a family I really wanted to you know have a mom and a dad and the kids like that's what I wanted and I I felt like I'd made a mistake you know not not my daughter my children are never ever mistakes but I felt like I got it wrong and and it's it's it's it's something that I carry forward in in all of my relationships that have you know all of my relationships have failed all of my relationships have broken down all of my relationships have ended terribly and I always reflect on how did I contribute to them failing.

1:17:19Okay. And it's not, I don't absolve them of their wrongdoing. I think that, I think, I just, I just think I've spent my time just desperate for love, you know, desperate to know what it feels like and I'm going to create it by any means. But for me writing that song, it was more of a, okay, I have to close this. I have to close this chapter. In the last week, someone has told me that it's changed their life. Look at that. That song has literally saved lives. Yeah. Yeah. Think about that. Yeah. It's literally saved lives. Yeah. You know, some of the research coming in that just blew me away. Yeah.

1:18:04One out of four women in England will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime. Yeah. Same thing in Ireland. Roughly the same rates in the United States. But this one is just, I mean, that's heartbreaking. Every 30 seconds in the UK, every 30 seconds, a domestic abuse-related call is made to the police. Yeah. And I think I remember at the time releasing that song, like people didn't write songs like that. Do you know what I mean? Like it was so taboo. But I was like, well, if we're not having the conversation, How are we going to know that these things are happening? So at first it was just for me.

1:18:45And then when I discussed it with the label that I wanted to release it as a single and they wanted to release it as a single as well. It was it became a bit of a movement. You know, it was it was a good song, but it was more about what what we could talk about. Like I, I don't, I've never wanted to just be an artist who pushes out songs. Like I know Superstar is a great song, but it wasn't my favorite song of my own. Really? Because just felt like, well, what's it about? What am I saying? That was, that was how I felt. I always wanted everything to, you know, to have some sort of substance. Yes.

1:19:30And Superstar is just a party song. And it's a great party song and it's paid a lot of bills. But I think I'm just that way inclined. I love being a woman. I love being impactful. I love being insightful. And then to go on to have four daughters. Yes. Isn't that something? Yeah, you can get one fella in there. You know, it's just like, I don't know. I just kind of feel like this is the type of work I'm meant to be doing. This is the type of impact I'm meant to be having. That relationship, then, was that your first relationship? Because I'm trying to get into, I'm trying to think about. My timeline.

1:20:20The relationship timeline. Yeah. You know, it's like, let me piece this together because at an early age, 15, 18, you're out here building your career. Yes. But this is also when most people are beginning to experience their romantic relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Were you doing the same or was it just career focus? No, no. At the same time. So. I don't know how I can say this without it sounding as harsh as the reality was, but I was doing, I was rising and becoming and.

1:20:55I don't know if I want to no no I'll say it so one of my videos is a video called call me and I remember um on the video shoot on the video shoot um just being assaulted by him and nobody nobody knew nobody knew and I went back out and finished the video yeah i've never ever told anyone that um this is so call me is one of my one of my videos um it was it was on i think it was on the first album so i was with him between the ages of 16 and 20 okay um so this is the relationship where i would describe it as being groomed i was 16 he was 25 what does a 25 year old want with a 16 year old and as i said i didn't even look 16 I didn't even look 16 when I recorded the call me video I would have been about 19 it was before I'd had my daughter um but yeah um yeah and I I actually I actually don't like telling stories like that because I read I read I read a book and it was saying about you know when you retell a story your body feels the trauma yes and like even just in that moment like i'm like i remember i remember it like it was yesterday i remember it happening and i remember going back out and being like okay let's get back on camera you know and like and i remember someone in the room kind of suspected that something had happened but i was like oh no no no i'm fine and i feel i feel like that's quite symbolic as to how I've lived my life you know as I have to I have to specify that I think it's as a black woman I think there are so many aspects of life that knock us down and we just shake it off and carry on you know we shake it off and we go back out and do the most incredible things, you know, to do that.

1:23:13You know, I was 19. I was 19 on that day. And to have that kind of experience, you know, before even hitting true adulthood is awful. But it was the beginning of me you know bouncing back from bs you know and it's not it's not a trait or a skill that i want to have it's not a trait or a skill that i want to pass on to my daughters it's not something that you know i you know when when people say to me oh my gosh you're so strong my my instant like emotional reaction is yeah but i don't want to be i don't this is not this is not what i want for myself i want to i want to be soft i want to be held i want to i want to know what that feels like like how does it feel to be a flower like and and and early in your life at 19 for example yeah perhaps and i don't want to put words in your mouth but perhaps you're interpreting what's happening to you as some form of love well yeah because because i equate passion so to me obviously i don't think like this now but looking back someone loves me so much that they're just enraged by something that i might do like that's passion it's insane it's abuse it's just abuse there's no there's nothing romantic about it whatsoever and but again it's like well you're not taught what love looks like what it feels like you know you're not taught how to honor yourself how to set boundaries for yourself you're not taught that you know hitting is not okay now even you know growing up in a jamaican household again this feels like a betrayal but so many of us I you know grew up with people around us getting beaten you know as a form of punishment you do something bad you get hit I would never hit my children like never because you know because and because I ended up in a physically abusive relationship and I normalized you know well if because what I was saying to myself was well if you just keep him happy if you just don't get him angry if you if you keep doing things right then you won't get hit no and you're walking on eggshells at all times at all times but but you know what i teach my daughters is no one is ever supposed to hit you and if they do it's a wrap It's a wrap.

1:26:09Did you end that relationship? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I ended the relationship when just after I'd had my daughter and I was holding her in my arms and he hit me while I had her in my arms. And I remember, as I said, I love to do self-reflection and self-talking. And I was just like, OK, you've chosen this for yourself for years, but you're going to choose this for this little baby. You know, she was six weeks old, brand new. Am I going to choose this for her? And, of course, the answer was absolutely no, and I got up and left the next day. Look at that. You know, I often say that, you know, we are set, whether you are, whatever, if someone is religious or not, I'll say you are set children.

1:26:57Yeah, yeah. To be your angel. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. To be your savior. My children have saved me so many times.

1:27:13They...

1:27:17Like, and I mean, like, every single one of them. I sound like I've got 18. I've got four children and four daughters. And I think what I find most profound about having four daughters is that they are all totally different personalities, but I see myself in all of them. And I see myself at different stages of my life. I feel like I'm raising myself. And so every interaction, don't get me wrong, I obviously get things wrong, but I always think about what did you need when this was you? Because you know what this feels like. What did you want to hear? What did you need to feel? you know and and that's how I show up for for my daughters and in turn I have the most beautiful relationship I feel so fulfilled just getting to be their mom and getting to feel like this is something I'm acing like I feel I feel like I got this right yeah yeah I'm like as a mother I feel like I am doing an incredible job and I love it.

1:28:29I've really consciously parent my children and in terms of being saved, they have, like there are decisions that I've made for myself, even like my last relationship, my ex tried to come back and I was just like, absolutely not. Not like these, my daughters are watching there are so many things that i choose or don't choose because it's like my daughters are watching my daughters my daughters have a front row seat and i am so transparent with my girls that hit me my daughters have a front row seat that's yeah yeah that's profound yeah is so so with your first daughter yeah that enabled she saved you yeah yes she got you out of that relationship so then the next relationship yeah yeah you enter uh-huh we don't have to name names yeah what what happened in that relationship how does that happen because at that age you are a single mom yeah but you're a pop star yeah or r &b star yeah yeah no no i was a pop star you're a rock star that's what you were you were a rock star out here you know so so you're start So this is a different space here.

1:29:49Yeah, yeah. So he was a footballer. And at that time, it was very like Posh and Becks, was like, we're the big thing. So we were like the black Posh and Becks. That's what they would call us in the papers. We were not. But yeah. And to be honest, I think I just wanted someone who didn't hit me, which sounds, again, like at my age now, looking back, come to slight well like the bar was so low and um my the i think the the the issue with him was just this just the cheating like constant cheating again i we we share a daughter and she's just yeah she's just amazing she's amazing like i think I think when it comes to my daughters, like, I have no doubt that these particular children are meant to be here.

1:30:52Yes. These particular, you know, so as much as I may recount a relationship in a negative way, I don't regret anything. And if I live my life again, I would do exactly the same things because I want these children. Yes. Yes. So did you end up leaving that relationship? and you were you were married yeah yeah we married yeah yeah yeah and this is the thing I I always try to evolve and do better so it's like okay I've done the right thing we got married we got married after um we had like a huge cheating scandal um but I believe you know I'm such a sucker for love I believe in love and I just yeah I believed him when he said he wouldn't do it again and then like maybe less than a couple of months into the marriage um he did it again so it was it yeah it it became i would say like a really a really volatile relationship because i just felt like well i can't i can't the i can't i can't i can't like i can't end this relationship as well you know why because i've got two children by two different men and it's just not what I want for myself.

1:32:22That's, you know, there's a huge sense of shame, a huge stigma associated with having, you know, multiple fathers for your children, you know, huge stigma. And because of that, I stayed single for nine years after my relationship with him ended. And then my daughter made herself a sandwich. so let me explain so

1:32:55so my my daughter was nine years old and she she decided to make herself a sandwich and I was just like oh my gosh they're not going to need me much longer like so she was nine my other daughter would have been about 13 and I'm just like oh I'm it's just gonna be me and at the time I lived in a massive house in Birmingham I was like he's just gonna be me in this house I need to find a man I was literally like I need to go out there and start dating okay I see I see yeah um which so so I did I did um and then yeah I had like a little boyfriend and then a little yeah it's a little thing but it wasn't you know it didn't it didn't become anything serious and then um and then i met my husband my my ex-husband i yeah my second ex-husband oh my god oh it is yeah yeah yeah and um and we had like a whirlwind romance and i've again like so this time it was you know he was just he adored me or so i thought he definitely didn't but i thought he absolutely adored me and i thought this is it like this is exactly it we got married after five months and we didn't have sex before marriage but it's only five months so but that was intentional oh yeah yeah because for me it's like well you've got that wrong so how can I get it right?

1:34:38I'm always in the pursuit of improving myself and my choices. And I'm sorry, what did you think you had gotten wrong in the past? In the past? As it relates to not having sex. I mean, to be honest, I'm not the type of person that sleeps around or anything like that. But I obviously had slept with the boyfriend before. Oh, I see. So your thought is... And that didn't amount to anything. So for me, there was a sense of shame. I've got, I don't know what that is, but I've got this thing where I think really deeply about sharing my body with someone. I just feel like that's a really deeply spiritual event.

1:35:26um and i know it's just it's just me it's just it's just me um but then so i so i felt like you know what um and and in the in the periods in between being in relationships i'm completely like completely celibate like i don't i'm just not that type of person okay and so um in in a way i think i think for me it's kind of like a reset you know i have this idea that i'm resetting myself and preparing myself and making sure that I'm not muddying the waters of my mind like I want to I want to be clear when I go into a relationship I want to be ready I want to be focused I want to be like oh okay I can have a relationship this is interesting and I say it's interesting because some people they look at uh sex as this is part of my litmus test yeah to see if I should be in a relationship with this person.

1:36:21Yeah. And you're saying no. No. So you told him right from the beginning, this is not going to happen. Yeah. And he was... Oh, he was fine. He was fine. Okay. Because he was in love with me immediately. Okay. That's what I thought. And then, yeah. And then also, just to set the stage, so you're celibate for nine years going into this. Yeah. You've been dating. Yeah. But nothing serious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you feel like, okay, I found him. Yeah, I found him. And then we get married. And I get pregnant maybe at six months. Wow. So, and then we had a really difficult pregnancy. My waters broke very early.

1:37:10That was quite scary. But yeah, we were married for five years. And then I'm going to fast forward now. because I was very happy. I was very, very happy. But again, I've got a different take in hindsight. I was very, very happy. At the time, I was happy. Okay. Then when I was three months pregnant with my last daughter, he just said, I'm leaving. My half? We were, in my mind, happy. We were on a baby moon like two weeks earlier in Jamaica. like we were having a ball and then that conversation was just how does that happen how's a conversation like that happen what's wrong what's wrong with you i'm leaving that's how the conversation went just in the middle of a normal sunday and i i can't i i again you see I'm feeling it now I'm feeling the emotion because um I I've never been so confused in all my life it was just like but what what what what do you mean you know at that point we had a four-year-old you know we built this blended family and in my mind at that time life was beautiful we had conversations after and what came out of it was that I was too much was what was being said I was too much I was too ambitious I I didn't want to be humble and humility looked like like so okay and I think this requires explanation um I am someone who is very happy to defy conventional rules as I'm sure you can tell um and so I was the breadwinner I I was the one who went out to work and he was basically like oh basically like he was a house husband I think what's transpired is that he wasn't happy being a house husband and also his family put a lot of pressure on him because I shouldn't be I shouldn't be the breadwinner but for me it was like I'm the one who earns the most money so it doesn't make sense for you to go out and get a job and not be able to sustain the lifestyle that I can sustain and maintain um and I thought it was okay but then clearly it it wasn't and I'd got I'd just gotten a new job and I think it was just yeah it was just too much um and I think what it boils down to is him maybe feeling and I don't want to speak on his behalf but this is how I've kind of reconciled it and how I make sense of it is that my my willingness to work and my ambition emasculated him in the process um but then it got really really ugly I don't want to go into how it did but it got to the point where I mean yeah he is he is he doesn't exist in our world anymore you know which yeah I I actually I still don't feel like I have the words to explain it.

1:40:56Right. You know? And I'm sorry. No, no, no. And for me, I feel like I've experienced so much abandonment in my life already. So to have that type of abandonment as well, so unexpectedly, so out of the blue. it felt like the final nail in the coffin and I think when I say that I

1:41:27sorry I was absolutely broken because

1:41:33because I didn't protect my kids from it because I didn't protect my daughters from it and I didn't see it coming and I wasn't, I didn't know how to fix what they'd seen happen. For particularly my elder girls to witness something like that happening. Like literally the rug being pulled from everyone's, underneath everyone. And not only that, someone who had been a good man to us, turned into the absolute, just the absolute opposite. And I think particularly not having an explanation, but not only that, going through a pregnancy, having a really, really difficult pregnancy. One of my daughters was just about to start her GCSEs.

1:42:28My four-year-old was just about to start school and my eldest had just turned 21. on this is this is like these are pivotal moments in my daughter's lives and I'm pregnant and we've just been abandoned or you know and it didn't what I another thing that I think to explain it would be I think anyone if anyone wants to hurt me you know aim for my children you know it's an awful awful thing to say and it's not the first time people have done so um but this is definitely the worst that it has happened and um and I feel like that's exactly you know I think the problem is I don't know why why someone would want to hurt me like that I am I am such like I'm such good vibes like I'm I love being good to people I love looking after people I love loving people I love feeding people I love providing a safe space for people there are so many children that have come in and out of my home that know love that feel you know that have felt joy and you know his family him like I I never did anything but love them and so I've just I've never been so confused and hurt and then but then I had dream so dream is my my fourth daughter and um

1:44:12my older two girls honestly

1:44:20without them I wouldn't be alive like like they literally they literally they stepped up in ways that I wouldn't believe they fed me they clothed me they bathed me they brought me to the toilet they they did everything they looked after their little sister they they saved me like they did and you know to a point where like there were there were moments where there were moments where I couldn't walk I couldn't talk like I was just I've never felt like that and I think I think one of the the things that I've always done is bad things might happen but I'm just like okay it's cool don't worry we're fine because because my daughters are watching I think the most painful thing I've ever experienced is breaking down with my daughters watching that's the most difficult thing I've ever experienced but it also became a motivator because I was just like this is this this is not they're not just going to see me break they're gonna they are I want I'm gonna show them and this is how you get up because if there's one thing I know how to do is to is how to get up and even though I doubted it I'm not gonna lie to you I really doubted it there were points where I was just like I'm I'm not gonna survive this when you're looking when you're looking at your children and they're Like, listen, they're not saying it, but where's my mommy?

1:46:01Like, where is she? Like, you know, there's a point where it's like these girls are counting on you and there's a brand new baby and she's just met me. Yes. And I want her to know, you know, I want her to know the great me. And so, yeah. Who is in your life supporting you outside of your children at this time? No one.

1:46:33It's so sad. And I'm the type of person where I will, I will like draw into myself and just close the whole world out. And that's what I've done for maybe the past almost three years. I've just you know I felt so hurt and betrayed by the people that I felt should have been there that I missed out on getting support from people who were offering support you know there were there were people that I owe apologies to that I didn't allow to support me um and I can I can be honest about that I'm definitely at a point in my life where I'm ready to do that as well because I created an environment where my daughters had no other choice but to step up.

1:47:20They became my support system and I relied 100 % on them, all while one of them's in her 21st year and the other one's doing her GCSEs. And they will tell you, I have apologized so much. They've seen me cry so many times because I shouldn't have done that. you're saying you shouldn't have put that on on them yeah because because i know what it feels like to have so much responsibility as a young girl like i've always wanted my children to just stay in fairyland and and be you know carefree i definitely didn't want them to see me yeah in that space no when when you think back throughout your entire life would you say that was that was the worst moment in your life oh gosh oh absolutely the worst and it and it and it lasted i'd say the worst of it lasted for about a year it's straight and yeah we did like we we didn't speak to anyone else we didn't communicate with other people we just because it was like it was at a point where it was just like okay what's the bare minimum and the bare minimum was we need to wash we need to eat need to drink and you know i there were there were times like we weren't laughing we weren't doing stuff we were just we literally just surviving did you leave the house well yeah we kind of had to so you know the baby needed doctor's appointments okay so true i sent my daughter to school i sent her to school i'm i'm a homeschooling mom but i sent my daughter her to school because I just knew I didn't have the capacity to do, to give her everything that she deserved to have.

1:49:07And so, yeah, so I sent her to school, which she loved, by the way. She loved until she didn't. I hear that. Yeah, yeah. I hear that. So how many years ago was this? Was this moment? So, in May will be three years. Three years. That's not long ago. No, no, no. That's why I'm still. And this is another thing. I feel like my daughters have gotten some incredible lessons. They now know that healing is not linear. You know, it doesn't just, you know, I can be happy as Larry and then, you know, I can have a conversation and I'll just be like, you know, as I said, like the amount of times I've apologized, particularly to my elder children.

1:49:58you know because I just hate that experience for them but I do know that they will carry forth some of these ideas and and experiences with them and also for want of a better term they've become little gangsters like yeah and I love that for them like and and to your point of and I and I love it when you just said they see me down right but they're going to see me get back yeah they're going to see it yeah and i feel as if the last few years the last three years yeah have it's been you like okay i'm a crawl oh yeah yeah then i'm gonna walk yep and then i'm gonna run literally you know literally and and a part of that a part of that was was speaking about it so um i remember like when it got to about two years um I did a tv show and I spoke about what had happened so what I just explained to you and um and I just I remember you know that when when you when you're in the public eye and you speak about something like that so many people so many people reached out in so many different ways and you've realized like how many of us are experiencing horrific traumas while just living life you know because I was carrying I was I was going to work I was on Hollyoaks I was um you know I was because I had to earn money I had to you know I had plans I wanted to move you know there were there were things that I was continuing to do I was still working I was still showing up I was still showing up on social media and no one would have ever known that oh yeah I'm like crying in the bed with my girls every single night like you know they just wouldn't know that that was happening and I think there's a lot of women who are living these dual lives and then there just came a point where I was like yeah I'm not doing that anymore not doing it I'm just not doing it I'm going to talk about it and then you know in the middle of the healing and I'm going to do something even greater than before.

1:52:13I'm going to be somebody even better than before. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Where does the inspiration come? Because there are many people. I agree. Lots of women, lots of men. Yeah. Yes. Who are in a position right now who believe they're in that moment. When you said I was in that low point. Yeah. They're in that point right now. and they're trying to find hope. They're trying to find something to aspire to. How were you able to find the hope? So for me, I think I was just, I think my whole thing was just like, don't let them win. There are a lot of people or a group of people that really wanted to see me down, that really wanted their absence to be so impactful that I could never go and do anything again.

1:53:07now it's just like absolutely not not with my girls watching like no and so to the the both things you know my daughters are watching me and I know that you're watching me too and you want me to fail and I think there are many moments throughout my life that have been motivated by people doubting me or people actively wanting to see me fall. And so for me, I just kind of, I think it all starts with, you know, what action are you going to take? What are you actually going to do? It's so important. You know, it's not, it's not just hope and prayers. It's not just, oh, you know, I'm not, it's not that.

1:53:49What am I going to do? And it's exactly what you mentioned earlier like I'm gonna crawl I'm gonna you know I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna put my I'm gonna put my two feet on the floor out of my bed that's and that's the first thing and if I do that then maybe I can get up tomorrow and then the next day maybe I can you know crawl across the floor and I'm talking literally like literally I'm curious though at this point because you said you're doing Hollyoaks so you're beginning really I would say the TV part of your career yeah yeah I started on Hollyoaks maybe about a few months that I had Dream in October and I started on in on Hollyoaks in March in March okay yeah at this point do you think well maybe I'll start singing again you know I can do shows I can go on tour whereas is do you have no interest at that point to to to sing or perform should I say so so I I mentioned hindsight a lot so I when I look back on my whole relationship that I had my daughters mentioned this to me as well I was I didn't sing I had no interest I probably do a couple of shows here and there but I never I wasn't singing around my house and I'm I'm a singer I love to sing but the fact that I wasn't doing that is such a red flag in hindsight um well now i sing all the time and now i sing all the time and um and yeah and like at the beginning of this year i decided that i'd love to record another album really yeah you're gonna record another one no this is great this is good this is good with beanie man too we need beanie man back come on now that would be amazing and I think I think for me as well you know it's not it's not about chasing stardom it's not about like being at the top of the charts or anything like that it's just I love I love it like I love it so much I love performing I love recording I love writing yes and and also like it's my favorite way to tell stories like it's my favorite way to um to be impactful you know and like yeah i've already started writing how good yeah i can't imagine i mean to think that this is a passion and that you're you're coming back to it yeah this album is just going to be this is gonna be crazy we hope so but i think for me it's kind of like i genuinely feel you know when people are like oh i'm living my best life I genuinely feel like I am currently the best version of myself.

1:56:34Yes. And I just think to myself, like, imagine doing all of that at your best. Yes. Remember I did it, you know, I did it while being beaten up or while being cheated on. Imagine doing it when life is amazing. Life is amazing. Can we talk about how amazing life is? Yeah. This is very important. Because life is good. We get another Jamelia album. Life is good. Life is good. Yeah. So what about life makes it so good right now? So in March of 2024, I decided to move to Dubai with my girls. And the reason we moved to Dubai is just because I felt as if I felt like we needed a new start. But I felt like that was the perfect place for us to do it.

1:57:27Dubai is a fantastic place for women and girls, despite what Western society tells you about the Middle East. Why so? It's so safe. Women and children are exalted. Like mothers, oh my gosh, mothers are put on a pedestal. And no one cares how your children got here. Like it's just the most beautiful, supportive. I feel like I have a village in every environment, everywhere I go. I feel supported. I feel cherished. And my girls are... Some could describe it as a false sense of security because we're from the Western world. but living in the middle east as a female as a black woman it's like it is it's it's like what is this what what is this and why didn't i know this existed i live without anxiety i don't fear anything i don't fear for my safety i don't fear for my children i i i am every experience is a beautiful one you know that there is so much attention to detail to to well-being there's a huge the culture is really um is really it is i would i would say that everything is built around your well-being almost every interaction you have you know you can go to the supermarket and they ask you are you happy yeah like like are you happy as a question you're like yeah yeah i think so but more and more there is there is a whole section of the government which is dedicated to the happiness of the people in Dubai and the people is everyone there's no I don't feel I just I don't feel other I don't feel I don't feel stigma you know no one questions whether you're a single mother or a married mother you're just a mother and and you are told like in every scenario like you know respect your mother like put you know your you know your mother is a queen like and and that's every single mother is given that treatment i will go to a restaurant that when i first went there dream as a little baby i'll go to a restaurant i'm trying to eat my food you know how it is yes yes someone in the restaurant will come and take your baby so you can eat your no you're gonna eat your you're like at first obviously you're like no and then you're like hold on this is this is what support looks like you know i'm here by myself with my children someone has spotted that someone has identified it and she's happy i'm happy i've i've never heard of that happening that's that's incredible yeah I am I am now getting to show up not only as the best mother I can be but also I feel like I'm the best version of myself I feel like I'm the healthiest I've ever been you know I feel like I'm the the happiest I've ever been and and also that my children my children they just they feel secure and I feel like that's probably something I've not managed to provide for them in the past because I've always felt like someone's missing you know we're meant to have a dad in the house and whilst I'm not I for one second am I denouncing the importance of a father like absolutely not I would much prefer to have a father in the house.

2:01:18We just don't have one. So my option here is to live with a void, whereas over there, the void is invisible. It doesn't exist. And like me, my children have many fathers. There are many men that they come into contact with every day. So, for instance, like when you go to like play places or gymnastics or if there are men, there are as many men there as there are women. So normally, you know, any places that provide entertainment or culture, especially for girls, it's usually female led. Right. But that's wrong. you know that there are as many men there as well and they you know you know they hold in their hands they they get in to have experiences that they that they that should be normalized yes you know yes this is uh this is this is beautiful yeah yeah because you can see how you know so in in the past since since you're you're you you watch we need to talk right you've probably heard me talk at least 50 times about Carol Riff's six dimensions of psychological well-being.

2:02:36But you're proving her theory. This whole idea is that when you have, she talks about environment, when you feel like you're in the right environment, and you feel like you're connected socially, when you have goals, when you have a new vision for your life, when you begin to get self-acceptance, when you have autonomy, when you have these six dimensions, then life becomes incredible absolutely new opportunities open up you know you become light and bright like like you are now yeah and that seems like so that move in march of 2024 was pivotal oh my gosh for you it was life-changing absolutely um i i believe that making that move gave us a freedom that we were never going to have over here and i'm not i i'm not suggesting everyone moves to dubai but what i would suggest is that people do become concerned with their environments and how they are how you're showing up for yourself like choosing yourself that's what's life-changing it's it's not because I moved to Dubai I I was just aware of what I needed I needed a freedom I needed to feel supported I needed um I needed to know my children were safe I needed to I needed to rest yes I spent about a month just just chilling doing absolutely nothing um I also I also felt as if I had lived a huge portion of my life in a very masculine space and so I also really tapped into my femininity this is gonna sound really weird but like I remember I set myself a little challenge of like wearing a dress every day for 30 days like I'm I'm the type of girl like I like wearing a track suit or whatever and I was like no no no you're gonna wear a dress every single day and it really it might sound like a weird experiment but it really changed so much for me just you know the way that I showed up the way that I walked the way that I allowed myself to be looked after because I think I think when you're not looked after when you're when other people have been careless with you you become super hyper independent to the point where you can't accept help and I even felt myself on this trip coming back to the UK today I was struggling up the stairs with like a suitcase and a guy came and offered me help and I was just like yeah whereas before I would be I don't know I've got this you know i mean right but like i was like oh yeah like i'm i say yes when someone offers me help which i am telling you like there are so many ways in which i have said no to help because i got this i'm strong sure i could do this so you're saying you're open now oh my goodness i i not even open i'm actively seeking environments in which i feel looked after yes and you know I I know for sure you know like

2:05:58I feel like a lot of people only put this connect something like this to a relationship but for me it's I want it in everything like my my daughters will tell you like I make everything an experience whether it's a meal whether it because I I feel so fortunate to have made it and when i say i've made it you know as i described being at rock bottom to now being at the highest height the highest height i've ever been to do that and with my daughters watching yes that's when you say the highest you're talking about the highest height of your well-being of my well-being that's really what yes of my well-being so yes carol riffs is it the six dimensions of psychological well-being yes so you mentioned that and I so I'm a huge researcher um and I went out I went into chat GPT I'm obsessed with it and so I wanted it deeply explained to me and so me and chat GPT were going back and forth and like how do I apply that to my life how can you know how can that benefit me how can it benefit my children how can I you know apply and what I discovered is that a lot of it I'd already started doing unconsciously and I was just like oh my gosh and to me that's what success feels like I don't think I've ever felt successful until now really yeah for me I think taking control of my well-being and my children's well-being is is how I've felt successful and I think you know to a lot of people I think you know making lots of money is where success is and don't get me wrong I love money I'm not gonna lie I love money but I don't it doesn't determine success because to me money is a variable I can I can have a small amount of money I can have lots of money I would like to still maintain my happiness regardless of where that variable is but I wouldn't be happy if my environment was variable because I think that's where the safety is lost yes you know you know So this is another nerdy one.

2:08:07Okay. But you'll like this. You know Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ultimately, that's what that lower, if you think, it's really seven rungs, but if you're thinking about the lower third, that's what it's about. Yeah. It's about you knowing that you can be fed. You knowing that you have shelter. But really what that shelter means is that you're safe. Exactly. Exactly. And when you have that need taken care of, you can move up to connection. Yeah. Belonging. Yeah. Right? And so you have fully taken care of. Yeah, yeah. Almost all of those rungs because you have. Oh, yeah, you know where I'm going.

2:08:44You know where I'm going. You know where I'm going. You're already there. I know. See, I'm slow. I'm slow. Because you have these pieces taken care of. But you know what many people say is the highest rung of Maslow's hierarchy of needs is self-actualization. Yes, yes. And the theory is that in order to reach self-actualization, it's often best to reach it with someone else. Yeah. Not necessarily romantic. Yeah. Right. But with someone. Yeah. We need people for emotional regulation and these things. So what is your outlook on relationships and on love now? so I think one of the things that I wanted to achieve was to to feel loved without having a partner um and the reason I wanted to do that is because I felt that I felt that I'd I've lived my life with this constant void whether it's my you know not having my dad around not having a partner that you know having a failed relationship it always felt like oh well because there's not a man there I'm I've you know there's something I'm such a perfectionist like anything I do you know if I'm cooking I want it to be the best meal you've ever tasted like if I'm if I'm organizing something I want it to look incredible like and I you know I've mentioned this to you before like I just feel like but just with when it comes to men I just I just don't I don't know what it is that I don't get right um but I think what the thing that I wasn't getting right was I wasn't loving myself I wasn't showing myself like now I I adore myself I'm so proud of me I'm like I I think the most relation the most important relationship I will have is the one that I have with myself and I wanted to nurture that and I wanted that I wanted to fill up my cup and I wanted to to know how to do that for instance you know what types of exercises make me happy what type of food makes me happy how do I like my friendships what do how do I want my relationships with my children to be you know what do you know what do I a lot of my focus is what do I get out of it not just what can I give because I'm such a giver I've always been someone who would just I would give even when my cup is empty but that's not me loving myself that's not me honoring myself and that's me living without boundaries and that's why I get taken advantage of And so I've been really focused on making sure that I fill up my own cup before I give to anyone else, even my children.

2:11:39But now I feel like I have spent a good amount of time really, really like niching down on what it is that I need. And I have it and I know how to look after myself. I know how to love myself. and then while it's not a void I would love to have a partner I would love to I'd love to have a partner but I don't just want to have any man I want someone who who looks after themselves in the way that I look after myself I want someone who you know cares about their well-being who is thoughtful, someone who doesn't need to be, doesn't need me to, I don't know how to explain this, doesn't need me to fill up their cup.

2:12:35I want someone to come to me with their cup full, like confident, ambitious, you know, that they feel, I don't want to baby someone, I've got children and I adore them and I love being their mom I love nurturing but I want to be the baby I think that's what it is I remember because we met when you came to Slavs Go Daily we've had many conversations there many conversations but you know what stands out to me the most is you were describing the man that you want He said, he needs to eat sushi. I'm like, he needs to eat sushi. But I understand. No, I fully understand. And can I say on the well-being, I think that you actually, you represent why the myth around values being the most important ingredient for a partnership is wrong.

2:13:38Yeah. It is a myth. Yeah. And I write about this in my new book. Yes, I've seen. Because what you have described in terms of the partners that you've had in the past is you've shared some of the same values. But what you didn't have was well-being. And that's the reason why well-being is the most important ingredient in yourself and in your partner. And that's why when you say, I want a partner that has high well-being, then you're good. Yeah. Now, of course, you have to recognize what that is. But because you have that in your life, you can better recognize it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it's just something that I've never seen as important.

2:14:21And I can either spend my time thinking about all the times that I didn't know this, or I can just move forward with new information. I am aware that there are certain things I will never have. but I think again because my children my children get to reap the benefits of everything that I know now you know I get to have certain conversations with them that were never had with me that I know that my journey is I it's absolutely worth it you know for the things that I can teach my daughters I know that there are four young women that are going to go out into the world way more whole than I was maybe not complete but definitely you know with higher self-esteem as I said like they're they some of the things that they say because like I've been trying to dip my toe into the dating pool I'm still not like yeah it's not it's not going well and just because like I don't know like I'm you know I say all of this I know what i need i do know what i need but then sometimes that kind of oh my gosh does he like me oh my gosh like how can i how can it's like i want to accelerate the process which um is silly so but you know you're dipping your toe in yeah but it makes sense that you're going to dip it in and you're going to say it's too cold yeah it's too warm and before you would have just jumped in Literally.

2:15:53But now you know that you need the temperature to be right. Exactly. You need to be precise. Exactly. And there is beauty in that. And also when I was younger, I read an essay called Let the Circle Be Broken. Right. And the essay was about how what ends up happening to so many of us is that we fall into these generational curses. So the way that our grandparents showed love and it could have been in a toxic form, then our parents see love that way. And then they teach us to see love that way. And then we then love our children in a toxic way. And this is why I have so much respect and love for my father.

2:16:35Because my father came from a very challenged family environment. Yeah. And he didn't have his father in his life entirely. And without having a father in his life, he was able to be an incredible father to me. You know what I mean? And through that, he broke the circle. And now with my boys, it's like, you know, it's the same with your girls. We should actually talk about, because I'm a 14-year-old and 11-year-old. yeah you know we can yeah you have to arrange things yeah yeah i'm for arranged arranged relationships jamaica like good yeah exactly listen yeah after this we'll talk we'll talk but it's it's one of those where okay so the circle's been broken you know and i can't wait to see how they will pair it right you have broken broken and i think so i think what people need to understand is that is that is completely intentional there are so many things that were passed down to me that affected me negatively affected the choices that I make the um you know even the ways that I showed up and I feel like for me being a generational curse breaker is like it's such a flex like I'm just I I I think I think I love that like I love that there are certain things that are not normalized for my girls or certain things so many things like you know my my two-year-old I teach her about setting boundaries for herself you know do you do you want to give this person a hug no okay right you know and just things things like that like it all starts it starts from the the moment they're born like and I feel I feel I've been so intentional because I know what it feels like to lack I know what it feels like to be yearning for something for love and one thing my girls will never do is doubt whether or not they loved with their yeah like no this is it this is it yeah all right when you think about your dream partner yeah so is your dream partner you think in Dubai in the UK.

2:18:58All right, how about this? I have gentleman A. Yeah. He lives in Dubai. Uh-huh. Right? Uh-huh. I have a gentleman B, just like gentleman A, just as charming, well-being is high, and he lives in the UK. Yeah. But then I have gentleman C, just as charming, just as attractive as A and B, and he lives in Jamaica. Oh! Which door are we going to? door a b or c so i know that what i want is completely unconventional i want him to be as far away as possible oh no so my ideal relationship is someone who definitely does not live in the same city preferably a different country um jamaica sounds nice but uk is just as nice i think I think for me I want I want something separate I want I want to be able to visit my relationship I don't want to live in it um I want someone who has their own life who has you know is pursuing their own things and so I saw an interview the other day with Cheryl Lee Ralph you know who that is yeah do you know that she lives apart like she lives in a totally different state to her husband no yeah and they've it's been for 20 years they have a very she's very happily married she's very happy in her relationship but they just live apart and i think also i remember helena bonham carter and her husband tim burton they also lived i think they lived next door to each other and like to me that sounds perfect like that that and it's always sounded perfect and this is another thing I I've always especially when it comes to relationships I've been someone who would like squeeze into you know squeeze into it was it was it a round peg into a square hole like because this is what society says it's supposed to be like and now now I've come to reconcile because it's like I've done everything that you've told me I'm supposed to do and that this is how it is and to be honest I don't like sharing my space I don't like sharing my my drawers and my wardrobes my bathroom I would much prefer if you live somewhere else preferably another city you could visit yes I can just visit you or you could visit me and then it's exciting like I love dating.

2:21:33And I think one of the things that I've always kind of wanted is to kind of keep that feeling alive, that kind of excitement, that anticipation. I don't really, I don't, I just have to be honest, I don't think I enjoy domesticity. I don't think I enjoy that, you know. I tell you what, you know, I would have tried to debate this. But I've reached a point where I fully see that society has given us a script. Yeah. And the society said, follow the script or you will be penalized. Yeah. And how you will be penalized is shame. Mm-hmm. Right? You're not in a nuclear family. You're in a blended family.

2:22:20Shame. Yeah. Raised that child by yourself. Yeah. Shame. Yeah. You're living apart from your husband. shame on you yeah yeah but that is the script and i think that the more we live according to our own beliefs and our own values yeah the higher our happiness so one of the questions that i ask when i'm speaking to someone is like what what laws have you decided for yourself like not not not religious not not like you know what what laws have you decided upon for yourself what do you live by what do you stand by what's important because i feel like we are all given a set of rules and there's a great book um called the four agreements and it's just yes it's just basically about what do you agree with and it's about going through life and you know really analyzing the rules and and regulations that you're set by society and but you're supposed to decide i agree with that I don't agree with that yeah that I I think that's I think that aligns with what I'm about and I think one of the reasons that we can hit a brick wall is because some of us just want to be good I have wanted just to be good for such a long time I wanted to be seen as a good like a good girl I guess you know so I wanted to be seen to do so when I got when I got married the last time I was just like yes I've done it you know because you've checked the box yeah I've got the you know I've got the I've got the husband I've got the children you know the blending of our families like it was just so beautiful to me and I just loved it and and I still I still I still believe in it I still I believe in marriage I believe in love you know I I want my daughters to find incredible relationships and have whatever relationship they would like to have for themselves you know my eldest daughter she she wants she wants every traditional thing and I love that for her and I want her to pursue it but I also want to live as an example for my children that you know there are also other options yes you know I know why I'm choosing this option now so I know that at this stage and this level of experience I know I'm choosing this option now because I feel like I don't feel safe I don't I wouldn't feel safe combining my life with a man right now but but the most empowering I think message there is I am choosing I'm choosing exactly and when I look throughout your life now understanding your story fully is that you were being chosen yeah you were being selected you were being told and now you're saying, no, I'm going to choose.

2:25:00Absolutely. Even if it doesn't look the way that it's supposed to. I get that I'm a weirdo and I lean fully into that. Yeah, but you're not. You're not. Now, we've talked about quite a bit here, but I want to just stop and give the floor to you. Is there anything that we have not discussed that you want to make sure that we touch upon?

2:25:35I think, I think, I think, I think one, and it's a strange thing for me to say because I've told stories. I think one of the things that I want to recommend to people is to stop telling the story. And the reason I say that is because I feel like we give so much power to our trauma sometimes by retelling the story. And I understand the power in telling the story. I do. But I think women, I think black women, sometimes our stories, you know, our stories are entertainment for other people. And I would like to see us lean more into our joy, feel permission to turn away from trauma. I think what I what I would like to do moving forward is to to show what joy looks like you know even after all of that despite all of that maybe even because of all of that you know choosing joy is just that now that is what we should be doing that is where we should be focusing that is where we should be leaning into because I feel again with women with black women I feel like so much struggle is normalized it's really it's really important to me I think especially for women and girls and I think also I live the live this way because I want my daughters to see my example I want my daughters to pay attention to what it looks like when you look after yourself that you're capable of doing that and also choosing people and environments that are that align with that with your well-being with your well-being being at its highest highest everyone supporting you looking after yourself and also and also for men as well like does your does your partner contribute to you looking after yourself you know I feel like so many of us are afraid to look after ourselves because we're scared we're scared of being selfish we're scared of you know dropping the ball or not being productive but like

2:28:10I just speak as someone on the other side of it I know what it's like to struggle I know what it's what it's like to experience trauma but there is another way there is another way to live your life And I do believe, you know, not regurgitating the story and not feeling that in your body, in your soul, not like, you know, in the context of this conversation, it's been beautiful because I know that someone's going to watch this, feel what I feel, know what I know, and maybe also see where they can go with it. you know what they can do as i said you know they may be broken now but i hope they know that there's there's still so much you can do with the pieces that's a really important thing that i'd like to you know i'd like people to know like don't think just because something's broken that means that it's finished like it's just not it's just the amount of times i've been broken it's it's um you know people always say to me that i should write a book i'm just like that you know i i had i had no idea the the one through line that i think of so i'll even i'll tell you my yeah my jamelia like behind the scenes story yeah is that when whenever we have uh a cast come to celebs go dating yeah i have no idea who everyone is i have no clue like even though i've been now you can for six years i still have no idea so so they'll say okay this person's coming this person is coming this person when you were on the guest lineup i promise you and i know i will get in trouble for saying this but i'm in a zone in my life where i'm just speaking truth you know truths of power is i have never seen the production crew more excited

2:30:07to see, to welcome a celebrity than you. But it gets deeper. Because then, as you're popping into set, everyone's like, I just love to be like, I just love her. Like, she's smiling, lights up the room. Everyone's talking about how much they love you. And what I realize is that you were, at that time, still going through struggles. Still going through ups, still going through downs. Yeah. But you always came and you gave the best of you. Yeah. To everyone. Yeah. And everyone loved that. And I see that throughout your entire career. Yeah. You've given the best of you. Yeah. Through your songs, through your performances.

2:30:48Yeah. You have been the anthem. You have been the North Star for so many people. Oh. But we're out of place now. Yeah. And this is what I want for you more than anything. and I see it and I love it is that you are now showing up for you. Yeah. Yeah. You're showing up for you. And that's just going to help to brighten you. That's going to help to change the trajectory of your daughters, right, of your life clearly. But I love this for you. I love that you're in this zone. I think that you are such an important voice. I believe that you are such an important, such an influential figure in all communities.

2:31:37But let's spend a second, because this is rare, I think, in the UK on a big platform for two black people to be talking. We didn't even get into any of that. But the fact that so many, I know, I specifically know of people who believe that your presence saved them and inspired them. And that's something that is incredibly special. Yeah. You know, incredibly special. And you did that. And the fact that you did that through your pain, you know, is just something that. So it's like, we have to give you your flowers. God bless you. Thank you. We do. We do. And I cannot wait to see, I cannot wait to see what the next chapter looks like.

2:32:31Because the next chapter should be even more special. But let me ask you, there's a question that everybody gets. You already know the question. You've had so many incredible conversations, I know, in your life. When you think back to the most memorable conversation, who was it with? What was said? And what was the lesson?

2:33:02I think, I think honestly, it was a conversation that I had with my two eldest daughters. and they were just basically asking me like a series of questions of like you know who do you want to be who do you who you want to be and for me at the time I was 43 years old so it was like you know within the last few months that we had this conversation and I think what what struck me about that particular conversation was that my young daughters still saw so much for me because I think a lot of us can feel like you know you get to a certain age and it's like okay I should maybe start winding down now and for my daughters who still have you know extreme youth on their side for them to see something bright in my future was just so beautiful because I guess it means that they see they see a light and and and they see potential and I definitely think that I've been definitely the past few years been a victim of like oh well that's it you know yes that's that's my life over you know I'm this age and you know but for my children to yeah for my children to to ask me those questions and to and it it was it wasn't just who do you want to be it was like a real sit-down conversation of like you know let's make a plan what are you going to do next why aren't why aren't you singing that was one of the cursed yes and you know I think you mentioned earlier that you know our children are angels and I really believe that like all of my children have been sent to to save me to motivate me to push me to inspire me and I am so so unbelievably blessed to have angels in my home.

2:35:25So, yeah. I think that conversation in particular was, yeah, it was a bit shocking, but it also inspired me to make some huge decisions. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. This has been a blessing. It truly has. It has been a blessing. I feel like that too. Thank you. When I think about Jamilia, I think of a mosaic. The glass has been shattered, but what she's done is she's picked up the pieces and glued them all together and created something even more beautiful. And the best part of it is she sees that herself. She got the contract at 15, immediately started making money and then became the income provider for her household.

2:36:19and the joy just wasn't there. She would easily have gone back and said, I don't want the contract at 50. Not only was she being groomed, but she rightfully said her brothers. And I love how she was able to juxtapose the male-female to show that we're actually not giving enough attention to young men being groomed for violent purposes. It seemed like she wasn't able to cope until the biggest blessing of her life came, and that's her children. Motherhood was her healthy coping mechanism. Her children saved her time and time again. One of the biggest things she's done is moved. You can see how the environment wasn't the most conducive for her.

2:37:02She needed to remove herself from the environment in order to gain a higher well-being. And I think the lesson for all of us is that sometimes our immediate environment may not be the best for us. That could be where we're working. That could be the village that we live in. It could be the country that we live in, is that we need to understand that our environment directly speaks to our well-being. Everyone watching will appreciate the pain and the journey through the pain to where she is now, which is, you know, this beautiful mosaic.