Joshua Cavallo: The Pressure of Being The Only Openly Gay Footballer And Why So Many Stay Silent

30:57And that's something that I really struggled with. And they understood why I did that when I came out. And right now to see that they're my biggest cheerleaders and supporters is absolutely insane. Yeah. Yeah. But it sounds like then growing up, you know, you were quite lonely. I was very lonely. Yeah. I didn't trust anyone. I didn't trust friends. The thing was I had really close friends. I was lying to them the whole time. So how can I call someone a close friend and be nice to them when I'm lying straight to their face. It is really hard to explain to the public what it's like in the shoes of someone that doesn't feel like they have a place in society.

31:40That was what I was struggling with all my teenagehood and I almost feel like my growing up, I had to grow up very quickly and then forget to enjoy those years, which is the most funnest thing of growing up through high school and enjoying yourself. So I do feel like that got taken away from me and caused me to be a lot more mature of how I am today as a person. You know, with so many people who have, whether they have been ostracized by society or family or they have ostracized themselves, they typically become what's considered avoidant in their attachment. And normally people who are avoidant, you know what?

32:22They become very successful in their careers because they begin to learn to, the only person they can rely on is? Themselves. Themselves. You know, and it's interesting. I didn't know this about you, but now I can begin to see how you probably took all of that energy. You doubled down on football, doubled down on becoming extraordinary in football. And you also have the motivation of your grandfather who had passed, knowing that you're doing it for him as well. Absolutely. I feel like that was the only space that I had, could have a break, not talk to anyone, put my head down and just show my talent and ability and be judged on that.

33:05and it wasn't a fact of me. Yes, it was me also being isolated in the change room, not really socializing with anyone, avoiding the showers, avoiding spaces where I felt uncomfortable or I'd get looked at in a certain way or people might think that I'm gay if I'm doing a certain walk or a certain clothes that I wear. So I channeled all that into being the best footballer I can possibly be and it's basically to say, literally today I can look at it and say that was my big FU to all the haters that think that I am not good enough to be where I am today and in the position of Joshua Cavallo the footballer yes yes so so when you you've written the letter your parents receive it right I would imagine that's a very emotional conversation that that happens um so your family now knows your close family now knows what's the next step that you take to really liberate yourself so the next day I was in the change room and I went to the coach's office I knocked on the coach's office at the time there was two coaches in there and one of them was very close with me because he was like he knew I was living away from home I'm young I'm 21 he was kind of like made sure I was always okay and his name was Ross Aloisi and he was someone that I would confine in in space of getting better as an athlete and getting better professionally so I felt comfortable speaking to him and I said that there are he's going to be the first person I'm going to tell so I knocked on the coach's dressing room and they were there sitting in the office just Ross himself and I said there's something that I need to tell you and he said you're not going back home there's no chance you're going back home and I said no no it's not that and he's like what have you done what have you done like are we in trouble here like and I said no no it's not that it's something else and he's like what and I said I'm coming out and I'm gay this is who I am and he laughed and I was like what is going on here and he's like is that it he's like get out of my train room it's fine there's no big deal I don't care if you like boys I don't care if you like girls as long as you're performing on the field for me.

35:22I couldn't give a rat's bum what you do off the field. And I was like, what is going on now? What I couldn't believe my eyes. Like, this is something that I would never, ever tell a person before. I was telling, this is the first person I was telling ever. So it was so rehearsed in my head. I was sweating. I didn't know what to think. And he helped me and said, how can I support you? How can we do this in a way that you want to do it? The main coach walked in and he said, He kind of gave me the nod, Ross, the assistant coach, and he said, Kyle, sit down. He's the main coach. And he says, Josh needs to tell you something.

35:58And then I said the same thing to the coach. And he said, there's no problem, buddy. Like, he's like, I have the same thing in my family. I have, I don't know why you're so scared to tell us who you are. Obviously, they don't understand that I would be the first in the world, in that space that's actively playing existing in male top flight professional football. So they just guided me and I walked out of that coach's room and I trained and I felt like just those two people knowing I had 15 kilos off my shoulders. Yeah. And to see that and feel that I was like, that is two people in my life that know.

36:39Imagine if I told my teammates, imagine if I told my friends, imagine if I came out to the world. And they said to me, Josh, what would you like to do? And after that session, we had a huddle in the change room and I announced who I was. To the team. To the team. And to see this masculine environment of men, stinky, like it's a football change room, right? I'm painting the picture. And to see each and every one of their eyes tear up and get emotional to see that this This is something I've hid for so long and it made sense why I was acting so isolated to everyone. And once I walked out of that change room, everyone was gobsmacked, gave me a hug and it was incredible.

37:23There's footage online of it. And I pressed the post button. I posted a video of me coming out to the world and that's when I stepped out of that change room, my life changed. Wow. What a story. Crazy, right? What a story. I mean, when I go back to just you and the two coaches, there must be, and maybe there wasn't any conversation around the fact that you, by saying this, you would be the first openly gay player of a top flight team in the world. This is a world, this was, this is, this is a, you know, it's interesting. And I look at this, I will say this, like, this is one of the most significant events in football.

38:13So was there any conversation around that? I don't think they really understood what this meant in that space. I think they were just shocked that I would even bring that up with them and thought that I was walking out of that coach's room and I'm finished with football. And that's not what happened. And to see how they all came together, my teammates and my coaches, and see how supportive they were, it really made me think I should have done that earlier. So it was literally like putting that mask I had on my face in a box and putting that box away. It was the most like thrilling day of my life.

38:53And it's the best day I've ever existed was that, that day. That day. So you were how old that day? 21. 21. 21. Right. A magical age for many people, you know, but what is also to me, I think so profound is at 21 was the first time since you were here. because you didn't have a mask on here though and then after this josh you had to put a mask on and you lived with the mask for many many years right what immediately happens once you hit post i have never seen my phone explode like that before with notifications it was started coming through of teams sharing it news articles popping up a google search popped up of my name and i was like what is like it literally found like a movie it was notified to me that was 500 000 messages in the space of 30 minutes um 500 000 messages just to you yeah so it was incredible to see how much love and support was coming my way and these are strangers people that I thought that I'm driving home now because I'm not going to have a football contract.

40:15I'm done with football. Like I'm going to go work in a local store and just be Josh. That wasn't the case. It was a case of people saying how brave you are and what's a step forward. And how is this still existing in the year of 2021? So these are what other athletes reaching out to you? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Who are obviously not out. Yeah. So I help mentor a lot of closeted athletes and a lot of Olympians, a lot of football players that aren't out and don't want to be out. You know, my journey, I'm grateful and so happy I did what I did, but not everyone wants to do Josh Cavalli's journey. They're happy to go around their life and keep it separate to the everyday life.

40:54They're happy to come out next year or in 10 years time, or they just don't want to come out all. But to have that safe space with me, with strangers I don't even know is incredible because I couldn't do that. Yes. So you're driving from the club thinking you're not going to have a job, right? You won't be able to play the sport that you've been playing your entire life. But then very quickly, you then become really an activist. You were forced into becoming an activist. Or should I say you accepted that. You accepted the responsibility of it. where was the what was the moment that you went from thinking I won't have a job to I now have a responsibility what was that moment was a particular message was it the volume of messages what was it I think it was the volume of messages and seeing that people need your help you are their lifeline I think when I realized that people are using me as their lifeline to like breathe in the next day and to want to live another day and want to live another week.

41:57That's when I knew I have a responsibility. Now, I didn't go into this thinking that I would be an advocate in this space and to see the movement that this had across the world of an international level and see the people this reached in countries that I've never heard of before and them reaching out for support is not when I knew I have a responsibility now. You know, there's aspiration, there's inspiration. This whole idea around aspiration is that you want to achieve what someone else has achieved. But inspiration is someone has basically said, let me show you the way. Let me show you that you can do this.

42:32And most people who inspire end up taking a lot of arrows themselves. I would imagine you've taken quite a few. I think what people forget is that I was 21. I am not the expert in all the solutions and all the answers and all what they need. I feel like getting put into this limelight and getting this spotlight on you, everyone thought that I was the solution and had all the answers to it. And I was still, till this day at 25, I'm still working it out. What is right? What decisions are right for me? What decisions are wrong for me? And that's the process of me growing up into an older person. And I feel like that's something I had to miss out on because I had to worry about what people asking me and helping people and saying that they need my help desperately and urgently.

43:27And it just breaks my heart when I hear people from countries where they can't be themselves and they will get executed for being who they are, saying for me and begging for me to help them when I can't do anything from here. Yeah. So how do you then, I mean, how are you then continuing to play? Because obviously the team embraced you. The league, did you feel like the league then embraced you immediately? Yeah, I feel like we had a really open space and we ended up launching a pride round off my coming out. And we introduced that into the league and every team had a rainbow jersey numbers on their back.

44:04And that was a moment of celebration round of my coming out. And that created a historical event throughout Australian football. So that was signs that this is working. Change that I never knew little Joshie could even play football and be gay. We've got an event for him now. Like that was the turning point to me saying, this is powerful. This is making a difference in society. Okay. Now, it wasn't just this though, right? Because you had then other players begin to think, I actually can do this. I actually can come out. And I want to give you your next surprise, Josh. Take a look at this. Hey, Paul.

44:49Hello to the team over on the We Need to Talk podcast. And a very special warm hello to you, Mr. Josh Cavallo. Just a quick few words, basically, to say how thankful I am for you. You helped me before I came out, whilst I was out, even now. You help me every single day without you knowing. And not just me. You help so many people all across the globe. and from my own personal experience, you helped me so much, make me feel more comfortable within myself. So I massively appreciate that. I hope you're smashing it over at Peterborough Sports. I'm so jealous that you're in the UK and now I've moved on.

45:23We could have played together. Who knows? But yeah, thank you so much. I hope the podcast goes well and hopefully we can catch up soon. All the best. What a legend, right? Look at that. That's crazy. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah, it's a reminder that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Absolutely. And I feel like in this space, I've created so many internet friends that I haven't been able to see in person. That's an example. Yes. So we have to, so this is Jake Daniels, right? And Jake was the first active openly gay player in the UK. As a result of? Me. Yes. Yes. And I'm so happy to see how that story's come alive.

46:10And this is the reason why I do what I do. And this is a very public version of Jake, but I have so many people, hundreds and hundreds of people that are in the same boat as Jake. So my goal is to make everyone like Jake, make everyone like me in their best version of what they would like to show. Yes. Which, which, which, which shows the power of representation. You know, there's so many people who say, what's the point of representation? This is it. And you think about going back to, you know, what's interesting is this photo is going to stay with me. It really is. It almost gives me chills because what I think is that if he had you, the childhood that you talked about that you missed, he wouldn't have missed that childhood.

47:02You know? And that's the part that gives me chills and that shows you another reason why your work is so important. But can we talk about football and statistics right now, which are not the most positive? So when I look at some of these stats around football, first is there are currently there are only six openly gay football players in the world. Only six. Zero in the Premier League. There are 549 players in the Premier League. So if we are just using statistics around how many gay men there are on average, which is roughly 3.8%, it means that there should be a few, right? But presumably there are, but do not want to say a word for fear of, there's a litany of things, but I would imagine largely it is the backlash that the fans are going to serve up.

48:15So when you think about fans, this absolutely blows me away, is that the fans, so this is currently what the Guardian says. 8 % of fans say they would not watch their team, would not watch their team if there was an openly gay player. 8%, and it goes on. 26 % of LGBTQ plus people do not feel welcomed at live sporting events. And 29 % of LGBTQ plus people do not feel welcomed watching live sports in a pub. This is the modern state. This is where we are today. so because you play what has been your perception of the fan base what is your your perception of of of of i wouldn't say of the fans but really it is of the fans and what's actually happening in the stadiums i think we're struggling i think in the society of today especially in sport and the way we're heading in this world it's only going to get worse and tougher um it's so sad to see the statistics on the representation of people just wanting to be themselves it's pretty sad that people will hide themselves just because they're a professional athlete and this is a space where I can't give you the solution, but I can help be a building block and to make sure the next Jake Daniels, to make sure the next person coming through is okay and can be loud and proud.

50:05But you believe that we are regressing, so things are getting worse. I mean, I think there's lots of arguments to suggest that's the case, but why do you believe that's so? I see that a lot in the news about rights of LGBTQ individuals and community laws getting stripped. And especially in the US, people encouraged to have hate sent and cheered almost to send hate to people of the LGBTQ plus community. It's actually like just me in having a coffee or taking a photo, putting it online, people will hate the way I look, the way I do, just because I'm a professional footballer and I don't fit the criteria, but I'm still paving a way for others.

50:56People don't agree with that. So have you personally felt an increase of negative commentary? Yeah. Think about this. You know, that shows right there, you're right, that it's a step backwards. It's one of those where today it feels like we are in this incredibly divisive environment where it's very tribal and people feel like they need to pick sides. And a lot of it is being selected out of ignorance and out of fear. And so it sounds like what you're saying is from your perspective is you feel like the anti-movement is growing faster than the pro-movement. So is that one of the reasons why so many of the players that you talk to don't want to come out now.

51:50Absolutely. I feel like I wish I could paint a picture where we're going to have so many players existing in the next 10 years, but I can't see that from what I've been getting, from the feedback I've been getting. If anything, everyone's getting a little bit more uptight and rather keep their privacy and not expose themselves in that space. And it does break my heart because I got so much joy from unleashing who I was as a person and to know that people don't have the same opportunities is me to do that because of what others think of them is really sad. So I'm curious with the athletes, and of course, without naming any names, is are there other reasons or what are all of the reasons that they're giving for not wanting to come out, especially given how liberating this has been for you?

52:37I think because people look at that as a side of weakness. For me, if someone says something about who I am as a person and my sexuality, I've got a tough skin in these last four years. Is it acceptable? Absolutely not. To say homophobic abuse my way. Absolutely not. But I have gone through so much in the last four years that anything thrown my way, I can bounce off it and turn into a positive. I've had physical roars as well where I have felt quite threatened and quite unsafe. and that's stuff that you don't expect by coming out and literally telling people through a video of social media who you are as a person.

53:13Wow. So you've been physically attacked? Yeah. Are you open to unpacking what happened? Yeah. It was the first time where I thought my life was in danger. For me, hate online does get to you and it does take a mental toll on yourself but seeing something in person and having an abuse and something happening so close and you're on your own and you're isolated. That was very confronting for me. That was, it's real. What is happening now is like quite scary. And it was me just at a petrol station filling up my car and it was someone approaching me from behind, trying to like hit me. So it was really hard to like see, and they said stuff I probably can't say on a podcast.

54:00They were being very abusive and homophobic, But that was the first time where I was like, this world is scary. This world is not safe for people like me. When something like that happens, I mean, obviously you have to defend yourself. But then immediately thereafter, are you thinking, I need to shield myself? I need to go back into that safe space of not disclosing, not talking. Absolutely. And I think when I opened up to my family about it, they were scared for my safety and they love what I do and what I stand for. But to know that my safety in person is at risk, that was quite concerning for them.

54:44A moment for me where I was like, maybe should I have not come out because it's affecting my everyday life now. So what do you do from that moment? because I would imagine many people would say, all right, that's it. I'm not talking anymore. I'm not going to advocate at all anymore. But what did you do? I don't care. I don't care what people think about me, Paul. I really, if you have an issue with what I do, you have your own personal things to worry about. Yes, it did scare me. It did make me take a backward step in some elements. But after reflecting and speaking to my network and my team around me, and they really gave me a hug and supported me during this process and time.

55:30But to think that my announcement has now turned into stuff like that is pretty confronting. Can we look at another moment to celebrate then? Because I like a good celebration. All right, I have another one for you. All right, I want you to take a look at this. All right, I want you to tell me what this is, what this photo is, and how you were feeling in this moment. You ready?

56:24What's going on there? person that I didn't see when I was growing up loud and proud. And these are the moments for me where it's okay to be you. And this is powerful. And this is life changing across not only in Australian football, but across the world globally. Yes. Yes. There you go. There you go. I'm not sure about the shoes now, but yeah. Let me see. Let me check out the shoes. Let me see. Yeah. I see what you're saying. But I don't know. It's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad. Oh my gosh. But it was a moment for me where this stuff and having this publicity and having achievements like this is fantastic, but I get more out of speaking to a local or speaking to someone, a stranger, and having that one-on-one conversation where they've opened up to me instead I've changed their life and I don't know who this person is.

57:13Yes. That for me is the lottery ticket. This is great, phenomenal, no worries. But for me, having day-to-day interactions with strangers to know that I've made their life better and I don't even know these people personally is all I can wish for. If you're looking for easy ways to show care for our planet, have you ever thought about saving food that would otherwise go to waste? That's exactly what today's sponsor, Too Good To Go, does. This is their surprise bag that I picked up earlier from a local store. Now, you might be wondering what's inside. Now, here's the truth. I have absolutely no idea.

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59:18Stranger Things, Season 5, Volume 2, begins December 25th, only on Netflix. So you've moved from playing football in Australia to playing football in the UK. Have you noticed a difference in the reaction between the two countries? Or should I say between the two nations? Yes, I feel like Australian football is a bit more family orientated in terms of in the UK. They're a lot more passionate and louder. And there's like you have fewer people compared to Australia, for example, but they'll be twice as loud. So I think adapting to hearing so much noise while you're playing is a change in mindset for me.

1:00:04Yes, we did have that in Australia as well. And kind of when you step on that field, you're Josh Carvalho, the footballer, you're zoned in, you don't know. It's all blurry. Everything else is all blurry. So you don't really see the people in the stands. But to feel the loud noises, to feel the energetic that comes from the UK crowds, there's just nothing that beats that compared to football in Australia. Yes. Now, have you felt the love and support here in the UK? I have. I truly have. I think that a lot of people that follow me online or followed my journey are UK based. And I find myself interacting with a lot more people in the space of they have similar stories and they're a fan.

1:00:47And it's really nice to see that this exists in the world of football. And we've been suppressed so much that now is my time to shine and show people that you can be yourself and happy. and it's obviously working if I've got fans, football fans in the crowd being themselves and coming up to me and talking. I got involved with a football club two years ago and representation is the key driver that I got involved and I very quickly started a campaign to try to introduce people to football who historically have felt unsafe and this is something that I didn't realize that there were many people who grew up feeling incredibly unsafe going to the football match let alone being the player you know what I mean on on the field and so have there been times where you have felt unsafe on the pitch yeah absolutely it's a no-brainer there was times in Australia where we had abuse in the game and that that was heartbreaking and to see it went all around the world internationally to see that there was abuse homophobic in one of my games was quite heartbreaking because that's the reality of being the first out gay male professional footballer.

1:02:06These are the situations that I have to walk through to make it the next one a little bit easier. As far as you're comfortable, can you describe what happened with that abuse? Yeah. So I had a bit of a head knock and I was coming off the field and I had to walk around the field to get back to the bench. And when I was walking around, there was chants, homophobic chants being yelled at me. And it kind of took off. And a lot of people started with like five people and it kind of, it was a pack of a chant. and that really wiped me and I think to see how much that affected me even though I was in the zone with my football it really got to me and that was a time where I was like being public this is not acceptable but this is the road that I've chosen to go down and these are the learning moments we have to go through in order to make it a safer place for others yeah so when you say it got to you how did it get to you oh it's just really sad emotional I feel like my mentality is very lioness I'm a lone wolf so I've grown up very much all by myself kept everything in so that moment was being publicized very much and seeing that there's a group of people that don't like me and attacking me, it made it feel real again, just like other scenarios where I've been confronted in person.

1:03:38I feel like seeing the reaction of my teammates, seeing the reaction of my coach to see how they protected me and guided me in these situations, even the opposition. Really? Yeah. Okay. So it was really nice to see that in a bad scenario, how progressive professional athletes, referees, coaches, staff are reactive to that. And I think our team was very aware that this stuff might happen. So they were very proactive in that case. But is it acceptable? Absolutely not. Yeah. So even on this is a survey of over 200 LGBTQ plus football fans found that nearly 75 % of them had experienced some form of homophobic abuse.

1:04:22Does that surprise you at all? and how does it make you feel knowing that this is the current state of football? You're horrible.

1:04:36People think that you can announce who you are and be yourself and then you move on with your life and that happened four years ago. Then we move on. It's not the case. I'm going through every day through my daily life right now and experience the same thing. It's almost like a repetitive thing of doomsday and it keeps happening over and over. And it's like to the point where you don't look at messages. You don't look at comments because all you're seeing is vomit emerges. All you're seeing is stuff that makes you feel in a negative mindset and negative space. So this is the reality of being who I am today.

1:05:10And I feel like a lot of people feel it's a very glamorous life, but it's actually not. It's actually a very hard place and I'm having to prove myself and my existence every day on a daily basis. So why do you continue? Opposed to switching it all off. I've thought of that. Absolutely. I've thought of just stepping away, stepping away from social media and that's it. Like I'm happy to just clock off. But it's the people I'm helping. It's the people that advocating and saying, we have a space on this earth, no matter who you are, no matter what you do, no matter where you come from and to not listen to the outside noise of people that don't even know you is why I'm here.

1:05:52And this is the job I've been given on this earth and this place to be the representation for people that don't feel like they fit into society. Yeah, I felt the lion fell out right there. Sorry, sorry. That was the lion, yeah. Sorry, sorry. I get like, ugh. No, no, I could see is that you know that you're, it's almost as if you realize that you're not even here to be a football player. That's secondary. You're here to be an activist. That's primary. You know, football is the medium in which you do your activism now. Absolutely. I feel like I wish it could be 50-50. And I wish I could say to you that Josh Cavallo, the footballer, I think in my experience, people think I've gotten to where I've got to because of my announcement.

1:06:43But little did they know I was a professional footballer for six, seven years before this happened. For me, that's more important than kicking a bag of air around. It's the meaning of I'm going to sleep at night and putting my head on the pillow and knowing that I'm proud to be Joshua Cavallo. Yeah, yeah, that's it with no mask, no mask. You know, so when you are, you're obviously you're mentoring people. Are you then in current conversation with players in the, say, Premier League who are not out yet, but they come to you for advice? Previously in these last four years, I've spoken to someone.

1:07:18Yes. Wow, look at that. And, you know, and I think what's incredible but also interesting is I think about your story and how you didn't trust. You couldn't trust anyone. But now you have someone who can trust you. Yeah. It's crazy because I wouldn't do that to someone. Do you know what I mean? I wouldn't message. And to see the trust that these people are putting on me and to see how comfortable I make them feel through my story. And I don't know these people personally. and to see that the power and the impact that's happening is, it's quite numbing and it's quite pinch me moment because it's like I built up all this facade of, I have to be a particular person.

1:08:01If I want a successful career in football, this is who I need to be. This is the way I need to go. And that's not the case. And every person that I've helped in their journey, it's being positive in their personal life and their element and it's allowed them to be that white dove and fly out of the cage. Yes, yes. So then obviously protecting that person. But what is the topic of conversation? Is he, what is he seeking from you? It's more about creating a safe space. It's more about me acknowledging that I'm here and I hear you and your journeys won't be the same as mine. it'll be different, but you'll be thankful for any way that you want to take this shape.

1:08:46There's no wrong and right. If you don't feel comfortable in doing certain things, don't do it. Yes. I feel like it's a lot of listening for me. It's a lot of work that I take out of my day to understand these people and help these people. But to see that this society is screaming so much for help like that means that we've got such a long way to go in the, in the space of football. And it might not even be a guy. It could be a girl. It could be a they, them. It could be anything. And you know what I think too is what you just said is something I've been advocating for for almost this entire year, and that is holding space for others.

1:09:22It is, I believe, it is the most compelling way to show that you love someone is to hold space for them and say, I'm going to take the full weight of your truth and I'm not going to run away and I'm not going to judge you. And if we can do more of that with our friends, more of that with our family members, more of that with our lovers, we actually will not only create these safe spaces where they feel seen, but we ourselves will feel of more value. And I think that's what's happening with you and all the people who are reaching out and you holding space. So it truly is beautiful. Now, there's someone else that I know you're holding space for.

1:10:03Go on. What's now? This is so funny. You're like, what's next? What's next? is uh so when you were 19 you reached out to someone yes okay so dating app 19 you reach out you get you get denied i get rejected let me tell you something i don't get rejected a lot in that space i got so hurt that this person rejected me in that space and i yeah i in the most humbling way possible i was like i'm gonna get this bugger right and to know that this person palmed me and like thought i wasn't real that was kind of an an eye-opening experience for me where i was like that's mad anyway sorry yes it's a man so on that note i want you to tell me what's going on in this photo okay you ready you tell me what is happening what are you feeling in this?

1:11:04Oh. What's happening? Do you know what's in my pocket? I definitely need to know. You know what's so funny is, I was going to say, I'm going to let you say, what is in your pocket right there? So this is when I proposed to Layton. That was a ring in the pocket. And if I knew it was looking like that, I would have hit it somewhere else. But for me, finding myself in a place where a club was so welcoming it made so much sense for my proposal to be there this was the place where I felt safe this was the place where I could be who I can and who I want to be and bring my partner and bring my family and it's a safe space for them so that's why you proposed there yeah that's where I found myself I didn't realize it I didn't realize it so that was essentially the first place, public place that you felt safe.

1:11:58So this is very symbolic. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Love it. I'm in a football pitch and I'm kissing my fiance. Yes. I never, ever thought I would be holding a photo like this and be talking to anyone about me being openly and proud of showing affection in public. Yes. What does Leighton mean to you? Oh my God. we're like yin and yang so he brings me down and he is so calm and I think people see his exterior and he's a rugby boy so he's quite strong and quite rough on the exterior but he's like the biggest teddy bear you ever meet and I love that about him because it's his soft nature it's his way of showing affection to me and for me it was like we have a different an age of 10 years apart from each other.

1:12:52Okay. And when we're together, it doesn't feel like that. And in those seconds right before you proposed, what was going through your mind? Oh my God. Funny story, right? So I entered the stadium and I told Leighton that we had a photo shoot and it was for the pride jersey that we had an upcoming pride event. Leighton has never done a photo shoot before. So he was very nervous and his nature is shy. Okay. And he was very unsure of wanting to participate in the photo shoot. And that was the narrative I had to paint to get him to the stadium. Once we got to the stadium, I said, can you please grab me a coffee, darling?

1:13:29Like I need to do some stuff. Yes. He didn't like that. He didn't like that at all because he wanted to be and watch me do the photo shoot. And then he can know what to do. So he went away to get coffees and that was the time where I had to plan. I'm going to do it in this position. This is how I'm going to do it. The camera is going to be here. We're going to, this is the cue. were going to do we had to organize that stuff while i was down on one knee practicing in the stadium there's gaps on the side oh don't say it and i see layton walk past with two coffees in his hands he had no idea he didn't look but i was on the ground like practicing and i was like oh my god my heart skipped a beat because i thought that he saw me anyway he comes back and he's like sweating because he's like what do i have to do now this photo shoot and stuff so we played it really cool and we did like back-to-back photos and we did like things that you do for a jersey and I kind of took a couple of steps back and then started talking to him on a deeper and personal level of why he's so special to me um and then I got down on one knee and proposed to Leighton and he just bursted in tears he was shaking he couldn't even stand up he was like sit he had to sit down on the floor and like I thought he was gonna pass out you know isn't it something to be able to find your forever person it is i always say that you know i'm not necessarily i've shifted from being this advocate around marriage everything needs to be marriage marriage marriage to just find your person just find the person that you want to do life with because life becomes so much richer and fun and right it's so when you have your person you know um i know you probably don't want to give that to me but i can i can i take that from you yeah okay and i want to special one i know i know it is i know it is you can have it back at the end and and then i have something that i want to show you okay take a look at hi darling i just wanted to send a quick message to let you know how incredibly proud i am of you and everything that you stand for when I was asked to do this video I instantly smiled and started thinking about all of the fun moments that we have together and all of the laughter in our house and I realized that I did not tell you enough just how much I love and cherish you on the flip side of that I also started reflecting about a lot of the hardship that I watch you go through and the difficult things that you often don't talk about publicly and it's hard not to get emotional when I think about what you face daily whether that's the stuff we see directed at you online or just carrying that pressure of being one of few in the spotlight you carry so much weight on your shoulders and I think it's easy for the world to overlook the impact of your journey but I see it you continue to stand up and show up when it feels like the rest of the world is turning its back and you're an incredible advocate for people out there who live in silence or don't feel like they have their own voice and I'm always going to be your biggest supporter and back you 100 % and I can't wait to continue watching you inspire others.

1:16:43I love you very much and happy birthday for tomorrow. he clocked it oh my god oh my days that is a lot for layton to do because he doesn't do that stuff often um so i know how much that how hard that would have been for him to do a video like that that is really probably one of the best things i've seen I said you could see how reflective he was in that and how earnest he was in that and what struck me is exactly what you said that you do for others holding space. This is precisely what he does for you. yeah I feel like he sees the Josh everyday Josh of what has happened and what comes my way and I know social media at times there's certain things you want to paint and there's certain things that you don't want to say but Layton gets to see the raw Josh of reactions of things that come my way or here's my safe space where I can talk about things that really cut deep and hurt me.

1:18:00So Leighton now is with you here in the UK. Okay. So in the UK, the environment, especially around family and children, changes, or should I say surrogacy? Because from what I understand is Leighton, he'd like to have a few kids. Yeah. Yes, he does. If I said yesterday and we want kids, we would have a, yeah. Okay. So tell me, he would like how many and where do you stand on children? I want children definitely throughout my life, but I am at such a prime age of still trying to live out and experience all of life that I'm not quite ready to be responsible for another human being. I feel like there is a space where we want two kids when we're older.

1:18:53Okay. Um, I want a girl, he wants a boy, but there is no rush in my time to get a child. I feel like that's some point in my life. I want to open that chapter for sure. I feel like that's something I want to pursue. But for me, it's difficult because we're at different points in life. Layton's 10 years on from me. He's ready for something like that. Whereas I'm still wanting to use my 20s and then maybe look at something like that in my 30s. Okay. So that's the space where we kind of stand at the moment. And our dog has turned into our child. So you can see the roles that we take already. Yes.

1:19:32So it's already fitting. The dog is the precursor. That's right. It's the precursor. Yes. How has your family received Layton? They love him. So Layton's like trained as an electrician was his first job. and my dad's like a car mechanic electrician. So they got on more than what I get on with my dad. So I was like, what is going on here? But they clicked on from the first moment and my family have been so incredibly welcoming to him. My brother, my mom, they absolutely adore him to the point where I feel like they're abandoning me. Really? Yeah, they absolutely love him. And I love that for Leighton, to be fair.

1:20:09It's difficult because Leighton has had such a difficult upbringing. He has worked really hard to get to where he is in life and everyone turned their back on Layton and he is someone that is stronger than me and I take off my hat to him because he has turned his life around 360 and he's someone I definitely look up to in that space so I don't say that I actually haven't said that to him or said that ever but that him for me is that person that I just knew that I want to do life with yeah I could I see it. I see it. And I think he'll appreciate hearing that from you in watching this. He'll also appreciate it because I'm sure that you will tell him directly.

1:20:52Yeah, absolutely. There was an idea from the One Better Guide from our sponsor, Adobe Express. It came from Jonathan Mildenhall. He says anyone who is creating should have a personal board of directors. Obviously, my wife, Jill, is on my board. She always tells me the truth, sometimes too much. So here's the test. I've made two logos for my football club, Sutton United. Now, one of them is, quite honestly, terrible. So let's see if she tells me the truth. I'm about to send you something that's very important to me. What do you think about both of them? They're both very nice, but I think I like the black and yellow.

1:21:32This is the logo that would be blasted everywhere. Why not the whimsical one? It doesn't scream football club to me. It screams maybe kids football team, but... You think my first logo is a kid's logo? That was brutal. That's the beauty of Jonathan's idea. Not all feedback is equal, but when it comes from people you trust, it makes every idea that one bit stronger. Click below to download Adobe Express and unlock the guide for free. Genuinely, I can't remember a time when the lead up to the holidays hasn't been busier. I mean, I've got the school activities for the boys. They also have sports activities.

1:22:12Then there's the holiday shopping for not only the family, but the wife. Then I have the podcast. I'm filming a few TV shows. I mean, things are busy. I drink our sponsor, Huel, throughout the year. But I got to say, I really appreciate their products the most in December. It's one less thing to think about. Now, I switched between the two. The Huel Black Edition ready to drink when I want to feel fuller. And then the Huel Light ready to drink when I need something a bit lighter. Black Edition has 35 grams of protein, 26 vitamins and minerals, and it's high in fiber. Similarly, Light has 26 vitamins and minerals, 25 grams of protein, and it's only 190 calories.

1:22:51If you're new to Huel and want 10 pounds off your first purchase, over 60 pounds, use my code WNTT at Huel.com slash WNTT. Off camera, you know what they're saying? They're saying that I don't eat. This is the only thing that I consume. And without this, I would not be able to do this podcast. So Huel, truly, thank you.

1:23:13All right. If you've made it this far, I know you're loving the conversation. So please do me one small favor. Hit that bell icon. Join our community. Thank you. All right. So there's another area that I'd love to get into with you is that we've been talking about it, but let's go a little bit deeper on it. is that you feel like we're regressing with regard to LGBTQ plus rights. So if we are regressing, what must we be doing now? So what must I be doing? What must those who are watching this be doing? What should we be doing to stop that backslide that we're on? I think it's the approach of being welcoming and finding that it's a safe space.

1:24:00And it's not the matter or the fact of blasting that this is a welcoming space for LGBTQ plus community, but in the space of understanding that it's okay to be you. And I feel like a lot of role models in a similar position to me in could be a drag queen. It could be a CEO to take that next step. That is the most influential way that we are going to turn heads to do what I did in their own working space. Okay. So what I hear you saying is that it's the supporting those in our communities who come out, right? Because that visibility, that becomes representation and then that inspires others. So it's creating that safe space around them.

1:24:46Absolutely. And I think it's the little like a lot when I do talks to companies or public visits in for companies and I'll go and have a speech and to see like a little gesture of a lanyard or to see a little badge or to see a little love heart that's a rainbow on the door. It already creates that sense that it's obnoxious to like most people, but people in that community see that. People in that community say, this is a safe place for me. They welcome people like me. And it's so little of detail, but seeing that this is a safe space does and moves mountains for people. Okay. Okay. That's very good for me to know.

1:25:23So what about at the sporting events? You know, we talked about some of this data around how uncomfortable so many people in the community feel in pubs, you know, sporting events at pubs or at the pitch, you know, at these sporting events. What should we be doing? I feel like people feel it's very difficult to be in a pub or to be in a place that's really masculine and can be quite toxic. The toxicity can be quite high in those spaces, especially around football, that people feel like they're not safe to wear a rainbow jersey, to not safe to wear a young lanyard, to not do anything that people frown upon, look upon in their lives in jeopardy or they're at threat of being dangerous.

1:26:16it's hard because I wish I could walk out of here and say that tomorrow everyone's going to be amazing and everyone can come to the stadium and be welcomed and but it's just not like that we're in a world today where people are still frowned upon and looked at in a negative way just to being who they are or dressing the way they are and you can say this about straight people that dress quite feminine as well you would ask them and I can guarantee you they say they get looks and they get deogratory things pointed to them that they look a certain way or They must be in the LGBTQ community because they dress like that.

1:26:45Oh, yeah. I will say, do you know what the number one comment is about me being on TV? Number one is, oh, there's Paul. He must be gay. That's right. Yeah. And how sad is that? You know what's so interesting is that at first I thought, okay, people are trying to be offensive to me by saying this. But then I thought, this doesn't offend me. You know what I mean? And so I think that it's one of those where I find to be so interesting for me in particular because I realize that I think the comments come, at least for me, because of how I express myself in my dress. I think if what you're doing is you are attempting to offend me by labeling me, by labeling my sexuality, how sad is that?

1:27:37you're attempt you're trying to offend me by talking about sexuality like it's ridiculous but i but but but i i then think my god if this is if this is the commentary i get i can't imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes it's a poet it's it's tough it's the fact that people question a straight person and why why are we even questioning that like what has that got to do with a television show? What has that got to do with representation for what you stand for? Because you have style, you're put in a box and you look that differently. It's so sad to see that this is a place and time where people question that.

1:28:20And it's, I wish I had an environment where I came out and this, almost this story was forgotten because it's that regular. Right. Right. That for me is a perfect move because I don't feel like I dress quite feminine. But what if I did? What if I wanted to walk around with things or have a handbag or whatever I wanted to do? I still think, oh, what are people thinking of me? What are people perceiving me of? And this is me four years on to the journey I've had. So imagine that for someone that hasn't come out. Imagine that for people that are straight and get asked questions that about their sexuality that they've never even crossed their mind before just because they have a bit of style.

1:29:02So it's just disappointing to see that this society in today's day and age, that this is a topic that we have to even talk about. Exactly. Exactly. And from your perspective, and I feel it unfortunately as well, is that we are regressing. You know, it's this backslide and it's every marginalized community now is being pushed into this corner. and unfortunately a lot of I think is a lot of this is being done very methodically to create tension and unnecessary noise to keep us awake to keep our eyes away from from other things you know um and we're taking the bait you know and and we're more divisive than now than ever before I think that's what scares me as well is painting a spotlight on hatred or telling my experience of what happened to me is quite damaging, not for me, but damaging for people watching because that's going to push them backwards.

1:30:05That's like when I was in the car and I was hearing these silly comments about two guys holding hands that pushed me back. Hearing these experiences that I've gone through will push people watching and viewers back. So it's, it's a space where we need to work on, not only us, but as a society and to work through that it's okay to be who you are and i just don't understand why people still to this day and age having to explain why they should be existing

1:30:38mic drop mic drop yeah mic drop yeah yeah why do we need to explain why why we exist yeah to anyone you know and not just explain it but then justify it that's right i've been trying to justify for the last four years of why I did what I did of coming out. Why am I even paying attention to that? Why am I like paying and telling people and trying to explain why I should have a place on this earth? Yes. It's, it's, it's baffles me because it's just like, there's, it's not even a conversation we should, not even a non-negotiable of a conversation we should be having. Right. Right. Can I, one last last is we didn't talk about Qatar.

1:31:24We didn't talk about World Cup, but we talked about areas and places, right? is as fans of football, what should we be doing for moments like that where there is clearly a specific ideology that is against the queer community, but yet we support football? So from what I recall is that there was the One Love armband And the One Love armband was essentially to support all love, but yellow cards were handed out for anyone wearing the armband. So these were players wanting to support. So for fans wanting to support, I mean, what do we do as fans? Yeah, well, flags are getting taken off people. People getting thrown out of the stadium because they brought an LGBTQ plus flag.

1:32:32It's disturbing because it's like these people that have issues with it, you look on your left or right shoulder and I guarantee you someone close to is going through that journey. And you're not only hurting people that you take this across, but you can be hurting your brother. You can be hurting your sister, your uncle, whoever it may be. it's just the fact that people don't realize of what they say has consequences for the people around them okay and i feel like in the space of what we can do to improve it is that this shouldn't even be happening countries like qatar shouldn't even be hosting a tournament and this is where we need to solidify and come together and say this is not on almost like protesting to say we're backing the lgbtq community cannot host a country can't host that discriminates between this sort of community and it's not accepting to be who you are in this country right off should not period be able to host a world cup especially something that people train for it's the epitome of it's the olympics of football you work so hard in your career to be able to represent your country on a world stage and you have to worry about being in a country in a region that you're not allowed to be yourself.

1:33:47And I can guarantee there were people at that World Cup that were in the community. Okay. And when the team, because there were teams obviously that backed down. So when the teams were backing down, how did that make you feel? Excellent. That was fantastic because it felt like I was being heard. It felt like people were being respected. And it's not right. It's like saying you look a certain way so you can't belong in a country to host the World Cup. What do you mean like I don't tell you that you can't have a cup of coffee when you wake up like it's just it's honestly it's the non-negotiable question that shouldn't even be discussed and the fact that we continued and hosted in this country and people turned their heads and acted like this wasn't an issue is so concerning for me and this was right in the prime of when I've just come out Yes, yes, yes.

1:34:35So we've done so much work as a world together internationally to give me a hug and to push me up and help others in need. And then we go and host a World Cup in a country that doesn't accept people like me. This is to your point of the regression and to the backslide. I mean, these are all facts. It's all good to say, oh, Josh, be yourself, be yourself. When it comes to moments like this, people hide. And these are the times where I needed those people that said, congratulations, Josh, we love you for who you are, to stand up and be like, that's not okay. We can't have tournaments in countries like this.

1:35:15We can't do that. It's all amazing when people is going fantastic and they're saying, pat you on the back for thank you, well done for coming out. But it's those times where you need them. And that's when I felt the world was silent. That's fair. That's powerful too. you know and for that to have happened I was one year later so just went through the whole news outlet of like everyone's fresh about it this is in everyone's mind and then we had this discussion and it was just like put that to the side this whole progress of like steps forward and such a significant celebration of Joshua Cavalli the only first gay football in top flight football coming out was silenced.

1:36:01And that's when I saw, okay, that person that actually said, well done, didn't mean it because when it counts, they're not there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. You can see that this is, this is your passion. So when you hang up the boots, this is what I was born to do, baby. I can see it. I can see it. So what is your message to the entire queer community right now? Be unapologetically yourself. Do not apologize for looking a certain way, for acting a certain way, for stepping forward on this earth and going through every, every life of what you exist on this planet. I feel like you, people can get so worried about what people think of them and end up neglecting their own body.

1:36:46Be unapologetically you and you don't have to worry about what anyone thinks about you in this life. Another mic drop. Bang! Another mic up. All right. So then I'm down to the final question. This is the one that everyone gets. Can't wait to get your answer. Is if you think back throughout your life, all of the incredible conversations you've had, which one stands out as the most memorable and who is it with?

1:37:18I think coming out to my parents. I feel like I wish I had that time again to do it face to face. I feel like I deserved a little bit more bravery from myself to do that and I feel like if I had my time again I would have loved to sit them down and have a chat like this and just believe that there is a place for Josh in this world because if I looked back then and see what he's done now is absolutely breathtaking so I wish I was a little bit more braver yes we could say I announced it to the world. But when it came to my family and stuff like that, I felt like I didn't have a place in that family.

1:37:56So if I had to go back, my one message would be just to be that unapologetically you, like I told the community and I tell everyone that wants to look up to me and pay that way as well. It'd be unapologetically yourself. All right. I love it. You know, I will say this, uh, with no, and please don't think I'm exaggerating at all is that I talk to many people but it is infrequent that I'm able to talk to real life heroes and I truly believe you deserve a space in the hero category absolutely I think oh that's crazy that's really touching thank you you do you do and I can't fathom the weight that you carry each day and when I saw that message from Layton, I thought, Layton knows the weight that you take, right?

1:38:55And as someone who is on the ownership side of football, I believe I understand some of the difficulties that you face just there alone, notwithstanding what you face on social, notwithstanding what you face when you walk down the street, notwithstanding these thoughts of physical threats, and the fact that you continue to show up every day for, you know, where I'm going. The fact that you continue to show up every day for this one right here, to me, is the reason why I think that you are a hero. So I want you to continue doing what you do. You will always have my support. And I believe you'll have, you continue to have the support of so many of us who will continue to hold space for you.

1:39:43Okay, so thank you. Thank you, Paul. That's honestly one of the nicest things I've heard. So thank you so much. It means a lot because as you said, I think Leighton's that person that sees the good, the bad, the ugly. So it's really nice to be able to open up in a conversation where we can help the public, but also I'm healing from this. So thank you. Yeah, super, super excellent, excellent work. Josh Cavallo, or I should say Joshy. There's so much stress that I have in my day-to-day to then have to hide my identity. And hearing Josh talk about the script that he had to create, stories he had to create, not feeling safe even with his friends, he mentioned.

1:40:33I can't imagine how isolating that feels. And to deal with that isolation on top of the trials and tribulations of life is just extremely difficult. When someone is able to come out like Josh, there should be a celebration and a support of that individual. That visibility becomes representation. And once you have representation, many others will be able to see themselves through that individual. and then you have more people who are able to speak their truth. So that to me is a great lesson. It could be as simple as follow Josh and you like his post. It could be in the sharing of this conversation.

1:41:16There are many things that we can do, but I'm taking away this understanding of celebrating those who are out and doing everything we can to hold space for them. Thank you.