Katherine Ryan: Breaking Up Felt Like Life or Death

29:55I know that, unfortunately, your friend Jessica, I think is Jessica. I'd love for you to share that story because that clearly had an impact on your perception and really endorsed this idea that men can be incredibly dangerous. Right. I was working in this really cool bar in Sarnia, my hometown, where everybody wanted to work. It was like the hot spot in the summer. And there was an older girl there called Jessica, with whom I was on the bar a lot of the time. She was beautiful. She was kind. She was really good at bartending. She was really popular. She was dating a guy in our town who was very well known.

30:32He was a Canadian Commonwealth boxer. And everybody, this is the other thing. These men who did bad things, I always saw the good side of them too. He wasn't this masked stranger. He was a really popular, lovable guy in our town who had problems, but he was, again, funny, really popular, really good looking. The fact that I knew her and he knew me, like, made me feel cool because I was younger. Sure. You know, he's a boxer, too. He was cool. High status. Yeah, high status, for sure. And they had problems in their relationship. There was abuse in their relationship, and she would talk a lot about it at work.

31:10So I knew what was going on. And they split up. Okay. And that is when a woman is statistically most vulnerable to, you know, succumbing to domestic homicide, unfortunately. And he lured her to a place to give her back a car radio or something. And then he murdered her in her car and like in a really gruesome way, like stabbed her 52 times and let her just bleed to death in the car. and then made it all about himself, like pretended that he also wanted to end his life and went and got help from a neighbor. And it was this shocking story in the town. I think it hit everyone in a small town, even if you weren't her best friend.

31:55It was just so unexpected at first. And I was expecting her to come to work that day. It had happened in the early hours the night before and she didn't show up for work. And that was very rare. And I was like, well, where's Jessica? We didn't have mobile phones at that time or else I didn't. And we got a call on the restaurant phone and it was from my best friend because news travels fast in a small town. And she said, Jessica's dead. Like the first thing she said to me on the phone, I went, what do you mean? And I thought it was like a colloquialism, you know, like so-and-so's dead. Like, what did she do?

32:26And she said, no, Jeremy killed her. And then I think I just felt faint, pale, must have. And then I said to my manager, I think my friend said, Jessica's dead. And within minutes, like, it's just the network of a small town police were in the restaurant questioning people who'd been with her the night before. Like, people started crying. Like, people started coming in. And I just thought it was the end of the world. I thought this horrible thing has happened. How could this happen? And eventually we were able to go home. I went home a bit early because I was so upset. And I said to my mom, like, you've heard, obviously, what's happened.

33:01Oh, my gosh. There are going to be movies made about this. And then my mom just kind of was like, no, that happens all the time. Actually, it happens like three times a week. And I was like, what? And my mom said, yeah, sometimes when you leave them, they'll kill you. And I was like, what? And she was under, you know, my mom had sympathy and was very sad herself, of course, about the situation. But my mom was just like so nonchalant in a way that like had a cold way of acceptance. And I just internalized that for some reason, I think because I was 19, just wrote on the canvas of who I am. And you can rationalize it or you can understand that, you know, statistically that does happen, but it's not going to happen to.

33:46But I think I lived the rest of my life just knowing like, oh, they will kill you. You know, your mother giving you those facts at 19 was, I think, such a blessing for you. And the reason why I say that in particular is because it wasn't until doing the research for you coming in that I started to thoroughly investigate femicide. Because that's exactly what this is. And I didn't realize that it is it literally is to this day in the UK is two to three women every week who are killed. Yeah. Most likely by a partner. You know, family member, etc. But but I did not know this to your point. It then informed your perspective of life, but of of of men.

34:40I really did. And I shouldn't have been reading my mom's diary, but I am a detective. So she kept a diary when she and my dad were splitting and she would write in the diary that she was afraid of the same thing, even though that was without perhaps just cause. And I think that's the gaslighting. Like I feel physically like a little bit. It is like a central nervous system reaction, even telling that story about Jessica that I feel like uneasy. And in every relationship that I've wanted to end, I've been like, oh, you can't just in case. And then you tell yourself, like, oh, that's stupid, Catherine.

35:16My mom later said to me, and we've always joked. I think we find the lightness in dark. I would say, well, I can't leave because what if he reacts badly? What if he kills himself? What if he kills me? And my mom would go, oh, relax, Catherine. No one wants to kill you. Like, who do you think you are? But it was like a joke. But I think we say that to ourselves, like, oh, you don't have a right to feel this fear. But I think it's a very communal fear. It's a very tribal fear of like, I feel it not just for myself, but I think I feel it for women all the time. It vibrates in me as this like, you don't know why.

35:59No one has like. Investing. But I'm curious then. So in past relationships, then you have stayed. Yeah. It sounds like you've stayed specifically because you feared being killed. Maybe not even explicitly being killed, but I've certainly stayed because I feared an unknown outcome, an aggressive or violent or unpredictable negative outcome. outcome. And this is the thing I think there are so many allies, wonderful men all over the world. I know that I'm married to one now, thankfully, and I've only heard good things about you. But I think that it's men seem to respond in anger when we tell them we're afraid.

36:42They go, well, why don't you be afraid of me? And we're like, well, it's because we in a heteronormative relationship choose to share our life to lay next to someone every night who could kill us at any point with their bare hands my husband is a very gentle man he is not aggressive in any way though he has that in him he has fought intruders armed intruders in our home he was a footballer like he played sports he tackles he's been in fights in his youth I have never even struck one of my sisters in anger. Like, we don't have that same capability, generally speaking, for any physical retaliation.

37:27Yes. And my husband is strong and he's someone who could kill me with his bare hands. I think just getting your head around that, like, would you have someone in your house if your wife wanted to kill you? She would have to be, like, super crafty and poison you, quagged. Get it right there. And, like, why? Do you know what I mean? And I think we're gaslit constantly told like, not all men, not all men. OK. And then you try to put a documentary on and, OK, it's more men. It's more men. Yeah. It's one of these where the stat was so startling to me when doing the research that I thought, where do we begin?

38:05Yeah. Because the conversation needs to happen. And I think it's in this dialogue. I think it's in just having these conversations. In particular, I think it's men being aware that these were talking about your friends, your family members who were out here committing these heinous acts. And if that dialogue just begins, I think that's a good starting place. I think it's a culture shift, too. And I am peaceful and positive about the fact that it's changing. We have conversations about toxic masculinity now. And I think that the men who commit these crimes, they had more avenues to explore feelings of shame, feelings of rejection.

38:53Like if they were given opportunities to talk more about their feelings, then they wouldn't be so explosive. Yes. And this is another reason why I think feminists are trying to dismantle toxic masculinity. It's not just for our own mobility and our own safety and comfort. I think it would be good for everyone. Women having equal pay allows men maybe not to have the pressure of financially supporting an entire family. Women being able to hold their own passports and bank accounts and buy properties and contribute in that way puts us all in a more level playing field so that, you know, these like balances.

39:33Don't happen. And that's the way in every study that I've read around ecosystems that are led by women. Yeah, they are so they are they are healthier. Everyone's everyone. The men in the ecosystem, they're healthier. They're happier. Everyone's making more money. You know, it's like, you know, to a certain extent, it's like, guys, like, give it up, you know, because those, you know, the research is there. And the sheer entitlement to think as well that you have the right to take someone else's life because you feel angry and hurt. It's ridiculous. It's crazy. You strike me as someone who was an early feminist.

40:09Yeah. All right. And this is the part that I'm trying to reconcile is that so you talked about you aspire to work at Hooters. Yeah. All right. So here's where I want to go with this is that, you know, from what is I've gone to Hooters and can I say the best chicken wings on the planet. Right. But I've only gone in to eat the chicken wings. I was like, she's like, sure. I believe you because I also like to eat the chicken wings there and I like men. So I'm not there for the girls just like you probably weren't there. Even at that time, there was a debate. Is Hooters objectifying women? Or is it empowerment of women?

40:51And there were strong arguments, should I say, on both sides. Where do you land on that? And what is, for anyone who doesn't know about the chicken wings at Hooters, what is Hooters? In this country, they really don't get it. And they would sort of equate Hooters with a strip club or like an exotic dancing place. But it's not. In Canada and in America, it's very much a sports bar where kids eat free on weekends. And they've got beer and wings and sports on TV. And it's fun. And it's meant to be, I think, satirical. we had signs on the wall that said like girls are flattery operated and like it was i think that hooters is a piss take like i think it's funny but um certainly it objectifies women it squarely objectifies women there's an owl on the shirt the owl eyes are you know placed in an area that emphasizes your breasts the shorts are really short that was more of it than the boobs actually because when I worked there I didn't have breast implants.

41:55I had a nice bum and it's more about the bum but maybe that was just culture was moving toward the bum. Culture did shift. Yeah. It's also about being thin, being athletic looking. Whenever we had meetings about just jumpstart meetings we'd call them. We'd talk about what we had out of stock, what we needed to do in the restaurant but there would be conversations about staying thin and our bodies and looking athletic. Interesting. We'd hula hoop if we had free time, like in the restaurant. Are you serious? Yeah, we'd caddy golf tournaments. There's a bikini pageant at the end of every year. You know, it objectifies women, yes.

42:30But I think it's women who can find empowerment in any situation, even one that objectifies them. Fair. Like some women obviously don't mind being objectified. At that time, I wanted to be objectified because again, even as a young ham-fisted feminist, I didn't know exactly what it meant. I knew that I wanted to be successful and I wanted to make choices and have autonomy and I wanted to have power. I wanted to have all the opportunities that boys had. I knew that. But I also still I wanted to be liked and to be liked. I felt that I had to be pretty and uncomplicated. And Hooters was interestingly the place that I found kind of the most empowerment for myself.

43:19But it was through trial and error. I would get in trouble for the things that I said. I got tired of competing in the bikini pageants, so I asked to host the bikini pageants to be able to wear a dress and to have a voice. I found like-minded women there outside of my small town who valued my uniqueness. Like, accidentally I found all those things there. Perhaps I could have found those things working in an office. Right, but you found it at Uters. So in essence, that experience gave you empowerment. And I learned that through my personality, I made more money than the girls who were pretty. How so?

43:58I just, I was capable of taking more tables. I would get higher tips because my personality became valued. Like I gave good service. I was funny. There were guys there who would laugh at me sometimes. That always felt so good. And I realized that the feeling of respect, and I think laughing at someone, having that commonality, that language, I feel that's a really respectful feeling. Yes. Like, oh, I got it. It's status again. Yes. That felt so much better than someone leering at me. Okay. Who wants to be leered at? That gets old real fast. And I think men, my dad included, have noticed in their marriages, oh, no, I married the pretty one, but I don't like her.

44:43You know what I mean? You need to have more. These are facts. These are facts. I wish that is what we need to be telling, you know, 11-year-old boys, you know, in particular. Was this the stage of your life that you thought, OK, comedy is something that maybe it's not a career, but it's something that I enjoy? Yeah. I noticed there was a comedy club, a really well-known comedy chain in Canada called Yuck Yucks that was right next to the Hooters where I worked in downtown Toronto. And I was like, oh, I was actually tired of getting in trouble at Hooters because I would sometimes take it over the line and get admonished.

45:20Catherine, I don't believe you would get in trouble. I did. Yeah, probably every day. Every day. For nothing. Like, I was in charge of the chalkboards, another one of my responsibilities. And I loved, I loved so many little things. And I would think so creatively about like, okay, what can I draw on the chalkboard today? and I loved even just drawing the girls and making up sayings and one of the sayings for the lunch special was club sandwiches and that was during a politically sensitive time in Canada where we were talking about seal clubbing and Pamela Anderson had done a PETA campaign about how clubbing seals was really wrong but that's sensitive in Canada because again it is a practice of Inuit and indigenous populations to eat seal meat I had none of this context i had none of the context so the chalkboard was club sandwiches not seals and see shit hit the face yeah i was accused of like racism and i'll and um a family had come in and they were treating their son for cancer at the toronto sick kids children's hospital and they'd popped out to have lunch while their son was going through treatment they were an indigenous family and they saw this sign and they complained like to upper upper man and hooters isn't just like a family business it is a corporate chain yeah so it went straight to the top because it was racism and like i was hauled in and it was just really bad and i felt so sorry and again comedy can be quite a blunt instrument it's really dangerous if you don't know what you're talking about yes i just didn't know yeah so i got fired for that for a while but i mean i won my way back i'm sure you Because I was a good waitress, though racist.

47:01But you were so good that they're like, I'll take the racism. And that's corporate America. So I felt bad. I felt awful. And then another time a reporter came into the restaurant and he was like, oh, will you speak to me about the smoking ban? Because the smoking ban was just coming in in Canada. Before then you could smoke in restaurant. And of course, I was very honest. And I was like, I don't care if we lose business because smoking is awful and I don't like people smoking in here. But of course, corporate didn't want me saying that. It was on the cover of the Toronto Sun. Was it? That's big.

47:35But now they've got that cover hanging in the window still at the Hooters in Toronto. So, I mean, I got fired at the time, but now. Look at that. Yeah. Look at that. But already you could see that you were, you know, I'll call it the, I'll call it, you were a nuisance for good. Yeah. You know? I should call the next tour nuisance for good. I like that. That is who you want. Yeah, I'm a nuisance for good. You're a nuisance for good. Can you believe that 80 % of relationships end in heartbreak or dissatisfaction? Do you want to know why? Because of the myths we believe about love. So much of what we've been taught is wrong.

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49:39Wherever it takes you, it starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today and see where your next connection might lead. How old are you at this point? 1920. 1920. Probably, yeah. By the time I started comedy, 21. All right. So you're dabbling in comedy. But at what point do you say to yourself, okay, I want to make a career out of comedy? Never. I never said that to myself. Never? It just started happening at me. Yeah, I just like fell forward somehow. So I was doing comedy. I liked it. I didn't think. And I think, again, that was the self-deprecating nature of like, well, I wouldn't do it for a career.

50:21I just like doing it. And I think it's fine. That's why I think kids should stay in education for as long as they can and try different things and have different jobs because you just move in the direction of what you like. And then if you work hard enough, if you have the chops to have a work ethic about it, that will become your vocation probably. So I just did it. I liked it. I found a group of people there, really like-minded, again, misfits from small towns, doing stand-up. And I was trying to exercise my demons still. I was like, okay, well, I'll be funny here because this is the right environment.

50:56and then I can go back to Hooters and stay on my path of becoming pretty and silent. That's incredible. Yeah. And I thought that I could juggle the two. And then it turned out I just moved more in the direction of comedy. I met a boyfriend there. Okay. Who was older than I am. While you were working at Hooters. While I was working at Hooters and while I was doing comedy next door. Okay. So I was like Batman. I had a by day and by night version of myself. and I met him there and he wanted to move to the UK. He was like, well, I take comedy very seriously. Even if you don't, I love it. I'm going to move to the UK because that's the best place in the world for comedy and I want you to come with me.

51:37And I was like, hmm, because I was still quite attached to my friends and my sisters and my routine in Canada. I never would have had the courage to move to the UK. To move, but also, I mean, this is no disrespect to the UK, but how is it that the UK was the capital of comedy? I would think maybe a New York or L.A. would be. It is the U.K. It really is. So there are people doing comedy in New York and L.A. There isn't as much stage time. It is really competitive. Until you get famous, I don't really think that's where you want to be. Okay. So U.K. is interesting. People, I think that during that time anyway, which would have been like 2008, a lot more was happening at the beginner level in comedy.

52:24You could make a career of it, even if you weren't famous. And there were many opportunities to become famous through the Edinburgh Fringe Festival or there's a lot of mobility. We have panel shows. They don't have that in America still. We don't have very many of them anymore. But, you know, there was a lot of mobility here. It was really exciting. and there was kind of a voice in comedy in Canada at that time that was like the farmer. It was like, I hate my wife and I drink too much. And I was very alternative on the comedy scene in Canada. I would not have played well in the small towns in Winnipeg.

53:02It would have been like the same reactions that I grew up with in Sarnia if I had tried to tour in Canada. I follow you. And I sort of fell into the voice of Canadian comedy at that time. And I was like, well, I'm a dumb slut then, if that's going to make you laugh. And I, you know, I was edgy without understanding how to be edgy. I was trying to emulate what I saw being something that worked on a stage in Canada. I was just really offensive. I don't know what I was talking about. I was really bad. Right. It sounds like, you know, at that point you had no necessarily, like you didn't have your inner comedy voice.

53:38Right. I did. You did. And it would glimmer out every once in a while. But I would get loads of advice from either my boyfriend or like male comedians or bookers who would be like, don't dress like that. You know, audiences don't want to see you in a dress. Don't say that. Like, we don't care about women's issues. And that's really alternative. And that's never going to work. Or you get feedback from the audience. I would do the stuff that I thought was funny, which I think I would describe as like kind of quirky feminist pop culture stuff. and audiences would just stare back at me so I just wouldn't do it again.

54:11I go, oh, okay. Message received. Can we spend a second on the dress? Why would they tell you not to wear a dress? Well, the advice at the time was that women wouldn't like me because I was like 23 with breast implants, working at Hooters next door, very blonde, very tanned, very young. They were like, that is not what a comedian looks like. A comedian in Canada has a plaid shirt on, a beard, a baseball hat, is an overweight man who smokes weed and hates his wife. Okay, and I've landed in the middle. I feel like this whimsical jumper I've brought for you today. I like the jump. I like the whole thing.

54:51I like the whole thing. So you're telling me then they were telling you basically, you know, stop looking so good. Not good, just glamorous. There was no place for that in those clubs in Canadian comedy at the time. Certainly no one else was dressing like that. The women, few women that I saw would wear jeans and a hoodie, trainers. And then when I moved to the UK shortly thereafter, the same was true. It was like, you'll be a distraction and you don't want people looking at you. You want people listening to you because already you have so much less integrity because you're a woman. and hosts would bring you up and be like, well, I'm sorry, the next act is a woman.

55:31Are you serious? Yeah, and audience would be like, ah. And when Joe Brand was doing comedy, she would go between exotic dancers. There would be men, exotic dancers, and Joe Brand. She had to navigate those working clubs. Is that late 90s? Yeah. Yeah, which is fine. That's how it was then. That's how it was. Different now. That's incredible. I've done it. That's incredible. Yeah. So are you now moving to the UK for him or for your career, both something else? I think mostly for him because I got a job right away. I worked in a sales office and I worked full time in central London. And it was a grind, but I was really just here with him.

56:13It was funny because we didn't have the best relationship, but I wasn't ready to break up. And I was like, OK, I'll come there with you. I'll see what it's like. And I did see it. I started to see it as really exciting. As soon as I got here, I was like, oh, I felt like a citizen of the world. I felt really anonymous and like I could do anything. I could be anything. Yes. Here. And I thought, oh, how much fun is it to just move countries? I felt very grown up. Did you? To be living with my boyfriend in a different country. And our relationship was not perfect, but it had its moments where it was good.

56:44All right. Fair. So if we're just going down the track of your career. All right. So you're here. You're working in a sales office. At what point do you feel like you have hit your, you know, I'll call your launch pad for your comedy career? Well, I was really invigorated by the other comedians that I saw here. So I started going to comedy clubs, doing open mics myself for fun. Again, it was always a hobby to me. It was always fun. He was going to comedy clubs a lot. I would go with him. Sometimes I'd get on the bill. Most often I wouldn't. I certainly wasn't being paid to do comedy here. and there were new act competitions that you could sign up for and there were female exclusive new act competitions that you could sign up for and i thought oh my gosh you have enough female comedians to make a whole contest and so i did a few of those really just socially like to make friends and i met people right away like joe lycett who's really successful now i'm sure you know yes um sarah pasco i met right away roisin conidy um joel domit even i started with did you But, which are...

57:47Ramesh, Arn Walsh, Josh Whittacombe I started with, Rob Beckett. Okay. It was a really good class. Like, if you look at your graduating class, like, the class of 2008 was really cool. Yeah, that's an incredible class right there. And there are more that I could name. I'm just leaving them out out of spite. Yeah, like, I'm leaving them out intentionally. Yeah. Tiff Stevenson we started with, too, who's great. Mike Wozniak. Yeah. There were so many great people in those early competitions. And then I won some of them. I came runner-up where I won, the ladies won. And all of a sudden, agents were a little bit interested.

58:21And I thought, oh, there are so many opportunities here. I'd be silly not to. Now I had the experience of doing a 9 to 5 in central London, running out of money at the end of every month. I mean, it was really hard. And I'm grateful for that experience because I know what working families are facing in this country still. It's like almost impossible. And I thought, how amazing would it be if I could get paid to do what I love? So then do you get an agent? okay so you get an agent and then you are then booked so what is your first What you would consider to be well-paid at that time. comedy gig?

58:59Well, I very early fell pregnant with my daughter Violet on purpose, which people disbelieve. Just wanted to have her. I found out that I had lupus, which is a drag, and I thought at the time I might not be able to have kids, and so I better have kids right now. So even though my partner was maybe not the perfect partner, I was like, oh, if we haven't broken up by now, we never will. I'll stick with him and I'll have this baby with him. And he was keen. He was older than me anyway. He's like, yeah, let's have a baby. Maybe men don't think these things through as much. And so I had my daughter.

59:32So that was a little bit of an obstacle early in my career. Before I was getting paid, I was already a mom to like a very young baby. So before you would say you started your proper comedy career, you had a baby. Yeah. But you just said something, now I have to spend a second. No, no, men. Yeah. You said many people don't believe that I intentionally. So what do you think people believe? She seems like an accident because I became a single mother very quickly. I was younger than most people now start their families. You started your family young. Well, you got married young. Yeah. Yeah, early 20s.

1:00:07Yeah. And then I had my daughter when I was 24. And certainly in that community, my friends are having babies now. Yes. And we're 40. Yes. So my daughter's babysitting their babies. And I was young to have a baby. And especially in my situation. I mean, it's a bad idea. I was in a foreign country, 3 ,000 miles away from anyone who loved me. I was financially insecure and I was in the wrong relationship. I would not advise anyone to really have a baby in those circumstances. And help me understand why that was, why lupus in particular was part of the drive for you to get pregnant. Just because I'd never, I had heard of lupus on both House and Seinfeld.

1:00:45Anecdotally, George Costanza running around being like, it's not lupus. It's not lupus. I was like, what is lupus? And I had these big open sores on my face. I think I was stressed out. 90 % of people who have autoimmune diseases are women. And again, I think that's maybe because we internalize a lot. We're very accommodating and that comes out in different ways. So we might not be fighting in the pub, but we're like just low level, causing inflammation. So I had these open sores on my face as soon as I moved to London. And I think it was really scary for me and really isolating. And I felt very stressed at the time.

1:01:20And then I had joint pain and I had fevers and I was just really unwell. And I thought, how can I exploit the NHS? And I finally was diagnosed with this autoimmune disease. And when I found out what it was, I mean, you should never Google anything that you have. It's usually not as severe as it looks, but it looked like infertility was one of the complications. And that if I went on this medication, which I'm still on today, that you go blind and that you could die and you might have a kidney transplant, like we know Selena Gomez has had now, and all these terrible things can happen. A lot of pictures of seal.

1:01:55I was like, what is happening? And I just didn't know what the future would hold with lupus. And I felt so sick at the time that I thought, well, maybe I will be sick forever and I'll die young or I won't have kids. And so I just tried once. But at 24, you get pregnant as soon as you try. Just like that. You think about it. Yeah, yeah. I thought about it. Can I ask about at the time you knew that you weren't with the strongest partner? No. This is a, I think, a question that a lot of women in particular face. They're like, okay, I want to be a mom. Yeah. Right? But my partner sucks. Yeah. What do I do?

1:02:35So how did you decide? How do you make that decision that this is going to be the father of my child? I mean, proximity, I guess it was the nearest dick closest to me at the time. It's called dick proximity. This is a new thing. No, it wasn't. I mean, we again, we had good days and bad days and I did love him. I've been tethered by love a lot of times in my life and made probably like not so such rational decisions based on that. And I did think it's not a terrible relationship. He has some flaws. We aren't the perfect match. But if we haven't broken up by now, I bet we never will, which is a ridiculous, ridiculous reason to have a baby.

1:03:23But I'm glad I mean, I don't regret any of it. And I've explored this. Like, what do you do if your biological legacy is impeded by the partner that you're with? What do you do? Do you wait around until it's too late? Like, I've explored this in my Netflix series called The Duchess. Luckily, I think money opens up a lot of doors to a lot of modern women. But if you don't have that, what are you going to do? And I think that if we really had true biological equality, women would be freezing their eggs on the NHS age 25. And they wouldn't have to worry about it. And they'd make such different life decisions because we're meant to have all this sewn up at such a young age.

1:04:04Can I say. Now that right there is political. I love it. You would have the eggs that you wanted. I'd have. But really. Yeah. Really. And to your point is that decisions would be made much differently. Though they are finding with microplastics and with lifestyle changes that men's fertility is going down as well. It's on a decline, yeah. And people are waiting longer and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my daughter is the greatest mistake I ever made. I always tell her that. Because on paper, it looks like a really bad idea. But as soon as she was born, instantly I became so clear and so motivated. My standards rose.

1:04:52And I became very successful. And I left my partner and I became very calm and really happy and peaceful. And I wouldn't have any of those things without her. And I might have been out partying or I don't know what young comedians were doing at that time, but I was going straight home. Yes. Isn't that poetic? That is poetic. And so you would say that your career, your proper career as a comedian began really through the birth of your daughter. Absolutely. It did. Yeah. Yeah. So what was first when you look back like gig that you were proud of that was prominent? Well, very soon after she was born, I was cast in a Channel 4 comedy called Campus.

1:05:39OK. Okay. Jonathan Bailey is in it, who you might know from Wicked at Marisherton. Andy Nyman's in it, who you might know from Wicked as well. It was an amazing series. I was not very good in it because I wasn't an actress, but somehow I got this role. And I think that was just the confidence of walking into these auditions now, knowing that my daughter deserved an incredible life and I was going to be the one to get it for her. and that paid 25 ,000 pounds at a time when I had, I was running out of money at the end of every month. I had no savings whatsoever. And it just gave me so much breathing space.

1:06:16I was like, wow, I'm going to be in this comedy series and like get paid to do something that's so much fun. And it was amazing. And Violet was six months old when I was cast in that. And she was nine months old when we filmed it. And I brought her to set. I was going to say, how do you manage that? Well, sometimes her dad would look after her. Sometimes she would stay with a babysitter, but I would bring her a lot. And she's in my trailer. There are photos of her in the makeup chair. I'm still breastfeeding. Like, it is difficult. Yes. The friends that I have, even, like, male friends now at age 40 who are having babies, all of a sudden they have respect for me.

1:06:52They're like, what? They're like, how did you do that? Now they have respect for you. I think that it is only the 40-year-old guys who actually are participating as active fathers who have the respect. Because I think there's still too much imbalance to this day. I mean, unfortunately, I know people who, men who have, you know, five children and they've never changed. What is it here? Wear diapers. What is it here? A nappy? Nappies, yeah. Never changed a nappy. I was like, what? You never changed? You, let me take the father card. It's just, it's absurd. But at that time, you're carrying most of that weight, it feels like.

1:07:31You're a single parent. All right. So career is growing. All right. Do you think this is my career? My career is now, I'm a comedian and actress. Yes. As soon as my daughter was born, I believed that I could do it. That was it. Okay. All right. So do you begin touring around this time or no? I didn't tour until I was on television. So I would do the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which is a great way to get your start in comedy. I would gig a lot. I started getting paid for doing just gigs. There are so many gigs in the UK that you can do. And coming from North America, it's so small that you can actually get to all of them on trains.

1:08:11It's amazing to get to that at home. I would bring my daughter with me a lot. And because I had this community of comedians whom I loved and trusted, and we were only on stage for 15 minutes each, A lot of them would watch her backstage or side of stage. And then I started touring around the time she was three, properly like my own tickets for my name. I was usually an unwelcome surprise on a mixed bill, but this was like people coming to see me on purpose. All right, fair. Yeah, and that was once I got on 8 Out of 10 Cats, and that was May 2012. That would have been a month before my daughter turned three.

1:08:45So in this research, I had to go back. So I was like, I didn't even, I didn't see. No, you weren't here. Kat, so I went back and I was like, let me check out Catherine Ryan during this time. And you know what stood out to me, because I watched you in that 2012 year, is that you were lightning fast in your delivery. And you were typically one of the only ladies. And so my two questions there is, first on the lightning fast, is what's your preparation? Because I think a lot of people like me who are not funny, we think, okay, you're just funny. Yeah. So as a result, you just show up. There's no preparation.

1:09:28You just sit there and you tell jokes, like, just off the top. Yeah. But you were so quick that I thought there must be lots of preparation behind this. What's your take and how did you actually prepare? For panel shows specifically, I'd say it's 50-50 split. You have to listen and respond. And the audience can tell when something is just improvised in the room. And they really do like that. But for eight out of 10 cats and any of those news shows really mock the week or even have I got news for you. Never mind the buzzcocks. You do have a list of things you know you're going to be talking about.

1:10:04So then you would be foolish not to have five jokes at least on each. So you kind of have a production rundown of like, we're going to talk about these news stories. We're going to talk about FIFA. We're going to talk about this and politics. We're going to talk about that. So I would sit at home with Violet, just playing on the floor of my daughter, and I would overwrite if I could. And I knew the format. You have to be a fan of the shows, too, to know how it works. They're not going to wait for me to deliver a paragraph of this long-winded joke with no punchline when there are all these other funny comedians on the show and it only lasts like 25 minutes.

1:10:36So you have to have one-liners ready. And you also have to have the resilience of like delivering another one if the first one doesn't work. And they'll cut that out. You just have to play it for the edit. So I might say something in the live record, which is, again, why it's so exciting for audiences to come to the live record. Because you get a longer show. You get maybe a messy show. But it's, you know, it's spontaneous. I'd say something. No one would laugh. Well, some comedians would go quiet then and go, oh, gosh, that diet. They don't like me. But you just say something again. Say something again as though it didn't happen.

1:11:10And I was really good at that. I was very impervious to shame. That has helped me in my life. Impervious to shame. Yeah. Can I say, I almost picked that up. Because also what I noticed was that, you know, people would say things that were offensive. Did they? Oh, like about me? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like to you, not just to you. Like it was like it felt like people in essence that the comedians were targeting each other. Yeah, but that's fun for us. I'm like offensive? You're like, really? What's offensive? But so but how do you so it doesn't you don't feel any type of there's there's nothing when you're not offended.

1:11:53No, I love it. You love it. I feel that it is a badge of honor. Like I think it's a real compliment that someone researched enough about me to write a joke at my expense. And I think it's a show of mental dexterity. I find it attractive. I like when other people have a sense of humor about themselves. And I like when someone surprises me. I think a lot of comedy is about surprise. so Jimmy Carr is the best at it but when he surprises me with like a new insult that he hasn't said before especially the more it hits home and truthful I will recognize that as a great joke and I love it and I love that it's about me How can the non-comedians, how can we borrow a page from that because I think we do I feel like we as a society we're taking things way way too seriously Yeah.

1:12:47Right. And so how do we get some of what you have? I think the first step is in acknowledging that nothing matters very much and very little matters at all. It's so superficial and it's fun and it can be fun to understand that it's not mean spirited. I think it's I think it's lovely. Yes. Difficult for me to explain because it's just so so much a part of who I am. I think everyone can feel when something is bullying or when something's mean-spirited and when it's not. I don't play sports, but guys on the basketball court don't take things personally, do they? Right. They get competitive, but they probably would say after the game, they're friends, they've been on other teams.

1:13:31They go, that was an amazing jump shot. Right. Is that the word? Yeah, that sounded good. You sound like you know what you're talking about. Yeah. It's just people showing off, like doing their tricks. Yes. And to involve you in the trick, it's a language of love. They say we roast the ones we love. And I think it feels good to remember that you're meaningless. Now it's like, who cares? Yes. Nobody died. Yeah. It's all. Just some words. I think people are ready for edgy comedy again. Yeah. I think so too. And you think it's off the heels of cancel culture not being so cancel. I think stupidity stands in the way of people being able to differentiate comedy and hate speech.

1:14:18And I remember very clearly when Donald Trump was running for office the first time. And I think Beyonce was maybe supporting Hillary Clinton's campaign. I remember the real radical Trump supporters referencing the grab her by the pussy incident. And they would say, how is that different from Beyonce gyrating in a unitard? And someone like me would be like, well, the entire difference is consent and autonomy. And sex isn't sex abuse. There's a list of 50 things. Right. That exists in comedy too. Roasting is all about consent. you wouldn't take someone from a bus stop and be like, now we're going to tell you everything that's wrong with your outfit.

1:15:04That's an ambush. There's no consent there. That's really mean-spirited. Everyone participating in that type of comedy language has consented to it. So I think, you know, if you look at comedy like that, it's a laugh, it's finding light in the dark. Sometimes it's trauma adjacent, but it doesn't mean to punch down at the victim or the person or the situation that's been, like, traumatized. Yes, yes. That is brilliant commentary in terms of stupidity being— They're so dumb. I mean, that's ultimately what it is. You're absolutely right. And everyone knows that. Just people are afraid to call an entire demographic stupid.

1:15:45But I'm not. But you just did. And I don't mean every right-wing person is stupid. I don't mean that at all. There are very stupid left-wing people right now. Yes. Deeply stupid. There are. It's increasing, actually. Yeah. Good for them. Yeah. So, all right. So that definitely helps me to understand how you were able to outperform because I really did feel like you were outperforming, like you were a star. You could see that you were a star. So what about the fact that there's just no women in comedy? You know, I was doing this research and saw that there are, it's less than 20 % of professional comedians in the UK are women.

1:16:21Why is that? I have mostly retired from discussing women in comedy only because with the best intentions, however I articulate myself here, it'll be lifted and put into a headline. Like Catherine Ryan says, and then it's like I rang up the mirror specifically to say it. I need to talk to a journalist now. I get asked about it. And so I do have an opinion on it. I think that it has changed for the better. I'm peaceful about the fact that that's going to take time. fewer women get started in comedy fewer women persist in the grind of becoming a famous comedian either because they have families or it's not as safe for them to take the night bus home or to sleep on a floor with like four strange men which is when I was starting company sometimes what it took to do those gigs to drive six hours for 20 quid like I think a lot of women have higher standards than to do that.

1:17:20It wouldn't have been safe for me to do that with Violet. No, not at all. I got lucky in a lot of ways. But also, I think a lot of the audience are still completely unable to receive comedy from a woman. And they'll say, women aren't funny. All right. Well, if your audience thinks that, it's going to be very difficult to change their mind and a production team and then a network and then advertisers really do have to adhere to what the majority want. So if the majority don't think that women are funny, why are you going to have a show with all women? Just like prove them wrong. Well, it's not financially viable yet.

1:18:00So you put one woman on and you see how it goes. Or you put two women on and you see how it goes. And the same is true, not just with women, by the way, but with socioeconomic backgrounds and like with diversity and ethnicity. Yes. And gender identification, like we've seen a lot of that now just purposefully chucked in to the mainstream. And a lot of those shows don't do well because it's either too soon or it's done sloppily and people, you know what I mean? It's going to take time for an audience because it all lies with the audience until the majority of an audience are able to receive that.

1:18:36It's just it's not going to happen. And then if you challenge it at all, and I'm not afraid to challenge it again because I'm impervious to shame and criticism. If I say, oh, Billboard released their 2024 list of the highest grossing comedians this year and it's 10 men. if I comment on that at all then the hatred and the discrediting that fills the comments and the insults they always do the same thing they'll go for you they'll go well you could be on that list women are funny but you're not funny and also you're ugly and also you're fat and also you're crazy and it's like alright which women have you been to see them this year did you go to a Nikki Glaser tour this year have you been to see Whoopi Goldberg did you see Joan Rivers when she was touring like you just you set yourself up as a target, which I do because I really don't mind.

1:19:27But women's minds need to be changed, too. It's not just men. Women are, I think, the worst offenders for saying, well, I don't think women are funny. Really? Yeah. And they'll say, oh, well, women just talk about really niche women's issues. Well, I looked at the list of the top grossing comedians in the U.S., and they're making like$60 million a year grossing promotion tours. This isn't who's the funniest. Right. Who's selling the most? Who's selling the most? The top spot is this American man. And I don't even know him, but he's doing very well. He's very funny. But he bills himself. Nate Bregassi is his name.

1:20:03Okay. Oh, wow. Right? We don't know him, but he's very talented. I watched his special on purpose because he's number one. So people are motivated to buy tickets to go see him. And that's really what counts in comedy. He bills himself as a husband and father. That's the first two things about him. Husband, father. Well, if I was number one, billing myself as a woman and a mother, a wife and a mother, then that would be considered like she's very feminist, very niche, very women's issues. But for some reason, a man's experience in that arena is universal. But a woman's experience is niche. So women and men will go to see Nate Bregazzi, whether he's a father, a man, a husband, whatever.

1:20:45And they'll listen to his stories, which are about his experience as a man, as a husband. And they'll see themselves in it somehow or they'll relate to him somehow. OK. And he will never be accused of like just talking about his period. Yeah. It's, you know, this is where I have an interesting take on this because you can take that exactly what you said. You can say, OK, let's talk about black Americans. Ben, it is exactly the same. Go on. Yeah, it is. It is exactly the same. And I have this discussion with my friend, my black friends in particular around us all the time. It's like, okay, well, what do we do?

1:21:24How do we change the audience's perspective? Because you're absolutely right. It's about the audience. Because ultimately what I would feel like with entertainment is, is like it's bookends for advertisers and sponsors. And so you do have to change the audience. But to a certain extent, you're still limited. I could see the limitations that are still placed on you. how do you go out and change the perspective of the like how do you do it Catherine tell us how do you do it what's the answer it's a lot of responsibility when you're put on a pedestal you represent your entire demographic because on a comedy show if a man's not funny he's not funny but if I'm not funny women aren't funny and I love what you said about that because I think yes the white experience is universal and mainstream and then anything else is urban yes or is like we even have a black comedy circuit in this country um i think i think there's not a lot we can do but keep on keeping on and through different examples people will start to get used to it nikki glazer hosting the golden globes it's the first woman to do a solo in its history and she smashed it.

1:22:37She worked 20 times harder than anyone else for 20 years and she was given that opportunity and she wasn't afraid of bombing. And so that's one. You know, it's just going to take time. I feel like that's a boring answer, but that's my only answer. No, I mean, I'm with that answer. It's about working your ass. It's like, we have to work. We have to work. Like, that's it. We have to be exceptional. You know, I remember growing up, I was told, Paul, you need to be twice as good at everything that you're doing or you won't even have an opportunity. Just to get the opportunity, you have to be twice as good.

1:23:09And that really focused me on doing the work. I was at the Glamour. How were you? Yes, you were. I was like, there was like five men. Stood out, yeah. I think Bobby, I think it was like five of us. That was my first time seeing you live, like doing your thing. And you really, like I'm not trying to gas you up, you commanded the room. Oh, that's nice of you to speak. You delivered unapologetically. And I felt like you weren't even waiting to see if there was a laugh. That's a tough one, Lambrow words. Because you do have to speak about the female experience throughout the year. Yes. And a lot of that is really dark.

1:23:50That's a little bit different. Paul, you can come to see me when I'm at the Palladium. I don't go so dark on tour. They're like, we'd like you to talk about Iran. I'm like, okay. You were. Yeah, you were going there. You have to. and mix it with light and dark. But the way that you delivered it, it was, I am confident in what I'm doing. Like, I'm a professional, you know, and it wasn't, I'm waiting for your validation. I already, you know. Never known how to do that. Yeah, but I think that's something that I greatly appreciate about your work. All right, so can we talk about relationships just a little bit?

1:24:26Yes, yes. All right, because after Violet, you're single. You, your career is, you're growing. Your status is growing. The money is starting to flow, Catherine, right? The men, the men, no, bad ones, good ones coming. What's happening with the men? Well, in my work, I always try to sprinkle in like more men than there really were because I feel like that blurs who I'm talking about and I never want to, you know, invade their privacy because I don't want anyone guessing like, which one's she talking about? So I, I tend to, I mean, they're all quite similar, so it's easy to do, but I tend to borrow like situations and experiences from them and just sort of mix them up, change features to, to write it, to hide the identity.

1:25:20Anonymity. You know what I mean? It's better for me. It's better for them. But basically I was never single. So I was leaving that relationship and I got straight away into a new relationship for whatever reason because I was a coward. I shouldn't have done that. But I'm sort of glad I did it because whatever. I got out. He sort of deserved to be cheated on anyway. So I was in a new relationship and someone, I know who but I never mention who, called Actual Child Protective Services. And I was investigated for I don't know what. They don't tell you when they come. So they just come knock on your door.

1:25:54Yeah. So they don't call. They just like knock on your door. They sent a letter. They sent a letter while I was at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival with my daughter. So I didn't respond to the letter because I was away for the month. OK. And so then they call and they're like, why have you? And they're quite like, I won't say mean. I like that they do their job as an innocent civilian. I'm like, well, good. But they're very aggressive. I'm like, you have not responded to this letter. We're coming to do a home visit. When are you available? And I panicked because the only thing that mattered to me in my life at that point was and still is my daughter.

1:26:26And again, I'm so grateful that an experience like this just melts away all the stuff that doesn't matter. And I went, well, what do you mean? What for? And they don't tell you what for. They go, we need to come see you with your daughter. And I was like, OK. And I flew home early to meet them from the French festivals. Like, I'll be there. Like, whatever you want. And I was so worried that entire night I didn't sleep because, I mean, your child is not yours. She's her own person. She moves out into the world. She's her own self. But while she's young, she's really only 50 % yours. I didn't know what was going to happen.

1:26:59I didn't know, like, what lives were going to be told, what was going to be done. I just felt very vulnerable. And no one could fix this. And you're alone. And shameful. Like, shame, I think, for the first time. because I thought, oh my gosh, like an entire organization is investigating me when I knew. I have always known like one thing I'm better at than comedy, than anything else. I'm such a good mom. I know that. And these two ladies arrived at the flat where I was living, which I was renting. And they came in and I think they were hostile in a way at first and almost immediately. It's amazing how they know what they're looking for.

1:27:34It's like, as soon as they meet your child, As soon as they meet you, they just seemed disarmed all of a sudden. And they looked around and her artwork covered all the walls. And she's such a happy, lovely little girl. And I spoke to them about my relationship status, my relationship for what was going on, like who I was. And almost immediately they didn't suspect us anymore. And then they went, they still, they can't tell you exactly why they're there, but they went down a list of sort of things. We would have to present ourselves at like a place, a child protective like place for more investigations.

1:28:06We'd have to go to a doctor. Goodness. I don't know what they wanted to do with her. Like she would have to see a nurse. They'd have to do all these things. And it just makes you feel really dirty. But all the while I was happy that they were there. I'm happy that this is the job that they do because there will be vulnerable children who are being abused or whatever. And then right away they started offering me services for like not domestic abuse but coercive control. And there are people who will make you feel threatened through this kind of thing. Okay. Now it makes sense. You know what I mean?

1:28:41Like they are like – they offered me that support. And then so we still had to go through the motions of going to these appointments. But they never went through with any more examinations. Every time I went to these appointments it was about supporting me. Okay. Yeah. So this is a romantic interest of the past, I would imagine. I sort of, yeah. Trying to exert coercive control. It's just kind of the most disgusting thing you can do because it's the – it was the way to hurt me the most. Like I would rather be like beat up or anything else. Like it's the way to hurt a single mother the most. It was really scary at the time, really bad.

1:29:23but again I knew I knew that my daughter was well looked after but there's always a question in your head like what if someone doesn't believe that and not even for me like what happens to her then where does she go like what's going to happen next even a 1 % chance of having your child taken away is too much and she she and I were thick as thieves as we say in this country like she would never have tolerated being taken from me like it would have been worse for her I think than for me at the time and that's when I was focused on it was just so horrible. But once I got past that, nothing has ever really upset me again.

1:29:58Right. Yeah, because everything else is meaningless compared to that. So that was, I mean, that was someone doing something incredibly devious. Really vindictive. Yes. Malicious. Very much so. And so this person, obviously you probably knew who it was at the time. how did you then ever feel safe it took me a while I never confronted that person about it again I just internalized like I think that person probably wanted a reaction from me so I just gave no reaction I've never spoke about it I didn't even speak about it happening for about a decade until I wrote my book because it is shameful it's like oh and I feel it's so interesting to talk to Paul, because I don't have a lot of feelings.

1:30:45And I like feeling a little bit like in a vice. It's refreshing for me. I don't feel this way. Like, oh, yeah, I'm like the Tin Man. Just the hardest beating. Oh, yeah. I used to be scared of things. You know, I truly had chills with you describing that story, because I know being a parent, how your child, your children are your life. And you know how competent this government is. I mean, I don't know what they're going to do. Yes. This is now an offense. This is an actual you will be imprisoned for coercive control. And this is happening, unfortunately, disproportionately to many women. And that by itself, did you feel that in the relationship?

1:31:33Did you feel the coercion there? interestingly uh my my subsequent relationship was a lot more controlling and aggressive yeah i kind of went from the what do they call it from the fire into the pan yes yeah that one um i think well again and i'm growing up in these relationships like this is why i don't think anyone should really date before 30 because i started these relationships when i was like 20 years old so I didn't even have the language coercive control. With that person did you feel like he was trying to isolate you from friends and family? Yeah definitely and I would it was other comedians actually who would point it out to me I'd go somewhere and I was getting to be successful which he really hated and just his body language or he'd get me in a corner and be saying something to me angrily he was angry with me a lot they would take me aside and be like are you okay Like guys I worked with and women would be like, are you an abusive?

1:32:37They would say like, are you an abusive relationship? I'd be like, no, he just really loves me. Yes. Yeah. I don't even think about him a lot at all. But thinking back, like he was, I just remember him as controlling, isolating, talking about how I did things, how I cleaned my house, how I cooked food, how I dressed, little things. Right. How my appearance should be, how I should get pedicures. He'd be like, you need to be getting pedicures for me. I'd be like, I am a financially destitute single mother and I won't be doing that. Yeah, where does this come from? Yeah, and a lot of sexual control and pushing me to do things I wasn't comfortable with.

1:33:19He was just very weird. It's interesting hearing your story because he, all of the signs he falls into. What's so scary is that we don't have the language. Because we don't have the language, we don't know the signs. because we don't know the signs. We misinterpret what's happening and say, oh, he loves me. Loves me. He just really loves me. I always kept him at arm's length from my daughter. He wasn't like living with us or like a big part of our lives. And I was able, she was like a compass. I was like, okay, what's good enough for me is not good enough for her. And if it's not good enough for her, it's not good enough.

1:33:55I was so lucky to have her. Yeah. You can see how she literally, she saved you. She did many times. Yeah. Your daughter saved you. For anyone who doesn't have a violet. Get one. Get pregnant now. Get pregnant right now. Right. But I was going to say, but in a relationship that you feel as if it could be coercive, et cetera. How do you, and I know this is challenging, but how do you believe they can find or where do they find the strength? I mean, no. Because you were able to do that. I was so lucky that I did have good friends. In my work, I was fulfilled in my work. I did have people who, and I'm friends with comedians, and they're not afraid to say what they think.

1:34:39Everyone in my community, like, really disapproved of him a lot. I had one friend in particular, and he said, what you're doing is you're sitting on a slot machine, and you're putting quarters in and pulling the handle because every once in a while you get a little reward. And you're worried that if you get up from the slot machine, someone's going to sit down and hit the jackpot. and you were wrong all the time. Like you've been gaslit so much that you think maybe he's this great guy and you're the problem. And as soon as you leave, like all the goodness of him is going to come flowing out for someone else.

1:35:10And he was like, the house always wins. Like there's never going to be a jackpot. Like this, you're just going to get quarters. Keep putting quarters in for the rest of your life. And I think that's what I was afraid of. I had been so convinced that I was the problem. I thought, oh, if I leave, then like I'll be alone forever and I'll see then clearly that I'm the problem and he's this great guy. Well, that definitely never happened. And then he said, in five years from now, if you knew you could have everything you ever wanted and be happy and your life would be amazing, five years from now, would you be making the decisions that you're making today?

1:35:45Would you just leave? I was like, I would leave. I would love to leave. I got really philosophical thinking I might be the bad person. It's like, well, you are doing well. You're really professional. You're really nice. Everybody likes you. and everyone's telling you to get away from him. I just had to look at evidence in the world. Yes. And be like, okay, and just get clear about what was real and what had been told to me. I love, I love, love, love the slot machine analogy. That is spot on. The house always wins. Yeah. It always wins. I think people stay in bad relationships because they're afraid to lose an investment, but that time is gone anyway.

1:36:26It's hard. It's a sunk cost. Yeah. And what's worse than wasting two years is wasting two years plus one day. You understand? I wish I could pass a collection plate to you right now. Yes. Two years and one day. That's going to stay with me. That's good. Yeah. One of the hardest truths in relationships is recognizing when it's time to let go. Staying out of fear, whether it's fear of being alone, fear of regret, or fear of starting over, can keep you trapped into something that no longer serves you. The real power lies in stepping back and asking yourself if your current choices align with the future you want.

1:37:08Growth requires clarity, courage, and the belief that walking away from the wrong situation is the first step toward building the right one. So you leave. Yeah. is this when Bobby reenters? Not yet. Not yet? No, I was single for a while. I was so happy. I really loved being single. I had a relationship for a few years with the guy that I'm really good friends with now. Okay. He was great, great, great. We were just not suited to one another. I'm so glad I had that relationship. Oh my gosh, Catherine, this makes sense. Yeah. You had that relationship before Bobby. Yeah. There you go. There you go.

1:37:46Because the reason why I say this makes sense to me now was because I was thinking, right, doing the research, I was like, yeah, there's going through a string of these relationships. How does she just enter, you know, this great marriage or this great civil partnership, should I say? How does she do that? Well, you were in a great relationship. And so great relationships teach us. Yeah. And it really helps us to shift even attachment styles. And so you had a good relationship. Good. I had a great relationship. And I think we were more friends. I've never been on a date, by the way. Like, I've never been on a blind date.

1:38:23I've never dated a stranger. Never. It's just, like, good friends who, by osmosis, became, like, my long-term partner every single time. Okay. Yeah. I've never just met someone. Ever. Never been on an app? No. Never. I'm pre-apps. I had fantastic times with Violet where we traveled. We got to do things in America, and it was just us. And no man ever lived with us ever. So it was just wonderful. And then I met Bobby when I was almost 35. All right. Then you met Bobby. So you had already known Bobby. Yes. So this is Bobby 2.0. No, no. Maybe this is Catherine 2.0 as well. Oh, for sure. If you spend 20 years apart, you're going to come back different people.

1:39:02Yes. Yeah. So you rekindled that relationship with him. How? I flew to Canada to film Who Do You Think You Are, which is this ancestry show. And I noticed now through some mutual friends who were like, he's posting gym selfies. I was like, gym selfie is the smoke signal of a broken man. I was like, one of these gym selfies. And I always really loved him. We dated, he was my first ever boyfriend when I was 15. I loved him. And he was good looking and everything else and the quarterback of our football team. And he was popular. But I also just loved his story. He lost his dad really young. he always showed so much resilience and strength he always seemed so much older than the other boys like spiritually an old soul he worked really young um he had a single mom like he was just such a great guy and he always found me funny like back before i knew it was even good to be funny back when i was still just trying to be cute he was like no i love you because you're so funny and i was like what and so um he was he came into the bar where my sister and i were having drinks just on a whim.

1:40:09I thought I should speak to him and have a drink with him or else I'll never get another chance because he won't be single for long. I won't be single for long. How funny. I did it as a joke, really. I was thinking to myself, two glasses of wine in. I never drank very much, but I'd had two glasses of wine. I was with my sister, who's a terrible influence. And I was like, how funny would it be to make out with my high school boyfriend just for the group chat? So that was your plan. Your plan was just - i saw him that became my plan i'm gonna make out yeah okay and this is the thing about men like you guys get so much hotter you get gray you get a few wrinkles like that is hotter than 16 speak on it speak it's really sexy yes it's silver fox is real speak on it and he was just so like withered and i thought i loved that he was divorced yes you know he knows he can't do better than me he already tried um and it i have never had a one-night stand because remember i've never been on a date.

1:41:06I've never done anything like that as much as I might seem cool in my standup. Like that's never, ever happened. And it just, I just never wanted that date to end. It became a date. Like we just started talking. We walked around Toronto in the snow. It was January. It was exactly six years ago now. And we just never wanted the night to end. And then he needed to pee. And he was like, I'm going to jump into this kebab shop and just go to the bathroom. And I was like, I can't be seen in that lighting. I wouldn't go in the kebab shop. Specifically because of the lighting. Yeah. Fluorescent lights.

1:41:38I was 35. I'm like, I'm not. I can't do that. And I was not trying to pick him up, but I was like, why don't you just pee at my mom's? Because you can trust my mom for a candlelight. You know, my mom's a babe. Oh, my God. She knows. Okay. Yeah. So I was like, just pee at my mom's. And then he came to use the bathroom at my mom's, and he was waiting for an Uber. He had called the Uber. Oh, wow. I know. And I was like, this man is not going to kiss me. But men don't make first moves anymore. Good men. Yeah. They're very like consent focused. And I think he didn't want to be made fun of. Like he knew about my career and I think he was scared.

1:42:11I think men are scared of me now, which is pretty cool. It's better than before when I was like this vulnerable conquest and he just wouldn't kiss me. And I was like, I went to hug him goodbye. And like we just were like centimeters away for a few minutes. And then finally he kissed me and I was like, where was that all night? Yeah. He was very respectful slash terrified. Okay. Yeah, and then we spent the night together, and then we were married. Oh, so he canceled the Uber? Yeah. Oh, he took the charge. I was worried about his rating, yes. Yeah, the rating goes down. I know. It's a big thing.

1:42:45We shouldn't have called the Uber in the first place. But that is yes. He loves me. And we just spoke immediately, like days after, like, oh, we're just going to get married and start a family. Like, oh, obviously. And there was no, because you know how, you're the dating expert, but you know how women of a certain age become quite careful. They don't want to make the man panic that they're entering the end of their childbearing years and what do they want to do and what are people's intentions. There was none of that. We just were like, oh, we should get married kind of as soon as possible and have these kids.

1:43:19I love it. This story, I did not know this story of the never ending date. Oh. I didn't know the never-ending date part. And can I say that is the standard. Is it? That is how I know. When my wife and I had our matchmaking agency, we would set our clients up on 30-minute dates. 30 minutes. I'd say, Catherine, going out with Bobby there. Only 30 minutes. That's it. And if the date ended after 30 minutes, I knew there was nothing. Okay. But if they called me the next morning, they were like, look, I just didn't want it to end. Yeah. Just didn't want it to end. I'm sorry. I broke the rules. That's how I knew there was something there.

1:44:00And I had no intentions. It wasn't like I was trying to get him back to my mom. It wasn't that. It was we were in like 20 degree below Toronto snow just walking outside. Exactly. You just want to be together. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. So now then does he come because you're still living in the UK. So what happened? He's living in Canada. Yeah. You're living in the UK. How do you reconcile that? He just quit his job and moved over here. Like it was very straightforward. It's amazing how when you're driven to make something happen, all these small details become really inconsequential. He was working in a job that wasn't his career.

1:44:38Like he liked it, but he didn't love it. It wasn't the same as I would never quit stand up because that's part of who I am. Yes. I think sports were who Bobby was. And now he's so injured from sports that he was working for an electrical engineering company and he didn't love it. He had friends, you know, he he did sacrifice a lot in terms of relationships, friendships. And especially I think losing his dad so young, being part of like male tribes in sports and in socializing was really important to Bobby. He values his friends so much. And because they were on teams, you know, that brotherhood.

1:45:18It was so important. So he did give that up to move here. And immediately it was the pandemic. And I think that was really isolating for Bobby, really hard. And straight out of the pandemic, well, he became Violet's stepfather immediately. And then we had two babies. So he has sacrificed a lot. It's been a huge adjustment for him. Yes. And during that time, you said you became a stepfather, right? You now have two children together with Bobby. But in the middle of that, there were a few miscarriages. Yeah. And I bring this up in particular because my wife and I went through this 16 years ago, 17 years ago.

1:45:58But to this day, it still enters my mind. But you went through this more than once. Three times. Three times. Mm-hmm. How do you get through that? How do you? I'm a lot more like you, Paul, because it takes me a longer time to process things. And now Bobby knows the signs. Like, he grieves right away. He gets visibly, like, sad and he cries in the scanning room. Whereas I'm a bit more British than that and I try to make everything okay for everybody in the scan. Yes. I'm like, sorry, really sorry. Don't worry about it. Don't you be upset. It's fine. Like, this is very embarrassing for me. Sorry, let's just leave.

1:46:42I'm smiling. I'm taking selfies on the way out. You know, it's, and Bobby's thinking, oh, will you please just be sad now? So I outrun it, I think. Now I have a pattern. There have been three. I sort of know what I'm like. The first one knocked us for six. That was early. We found out at 10 weeks in a scan. And my embryos, I will call them fetuses or embryos, whatever you want to call them, would be future babies. They hold on as well, which I feel is traumatic. It doesn't just happen like it does in the movies where you bleed. I don't find out until I am in a screening with a doctor and they just notice on the scan there's no heartbeat.

1:47:29That's what's happened every time. And then I have to have surgery. Otherwise, it just won't come out. So the first time I waited to see if it would resolve itself and it didn't. And that waiting time, I just went a little bit mental. If you don't mind me using such a triggering word, people don't like that word anymore, but I went fully mental. I kept working. I acted like everything was fine. and all the while in my head I'm like I am a walking tomb like I am pregnant with a dead baby and nobody knows and then I started again I think I feel very tribally about women and all of a sudden I'd look around and I think oh the lady in the cash register at the Morrisons might also be pregnant with a dead baby and this woman's moving about her life just pregnant with a dead baby and I could not sleep.

1:48:14I couldn't think of anything else than like, what is going on? And when will it resolve? And where does it go? And like thinking spiritually, thinking of all these things. And then finally, I had the surgery. And only at that point was I able to even hormonally climb down from the place I was in. Because I think your body and your whole endocrine system starts to go, well, where's the baby? Well, what happened? And then I felt sad for my husband. I felt that I'd let Bobby down somehow. I felt that my autoimmune disease was probably responsible, which like it probably was. And then you start questioning like, if I want something so much, like why is my body working against me to hurt a baby, but all of my immune system, this firing, like, sees it as an intruder.

1:49:07That's what I thought. And I was just, it's such a disconnect. And I had a very public falling out with a artist called Slow Tie at the NME Awards. I don't know if you saw that. That's because I was pregnant with a dead baby. I wasn't thinking straight. I mean, all these things were happening at once. But what I've learned is that I should probably stop working when that happens. The second time, we found out at 13 weeks, which was later, I knew straight away to get the surgery. And there was something wrong with the development of that fetus early on. It didn't have any chromosomal things, but its stomach wall wasn't forming properly.

1:49:43So we had a bit of a warning that that might go that way. And then the third time, she did have like a syndrome that was not compatible with life. And that ended, we found out with the heartbeat on the scan. Fine. And that time, I thought would be the easiest because I'd been through it so many times. but um that was after Fred and Fena so I knew I kind of had another uh rekindled optimism I thought this was going to work and when it didn't I went straight from the surgery to work which I've done too many times and the doctor's always like can you please not and I'm like take you my you know I just have to move forward and I went on stage that night and then I was filming the next day And I just keep doing that until I finally have a breakdown.

1:50:29And then Bobby's like, here it is. And then I get just really sad. It's this sadness that I don't, I can't even explain. It just feels so bad when you're in it. And I try to hold on to that feeling because remarkably, you forget. And you say you still think about the baby that you lost. You still think about it. But your body kind of puts it somewhere and you don't think about it every minute. And you're able to function and you move on. But the women and the men who are in that situation, they feel so lonely because nobody talks about it. People move on from it. It's shameful. They sweep it under the rug.

1:51:05So I try to stay connected to that initial feeling of grief only because I know people going through it are so alone because I felt really alone at that time. And I'm fine about it now. And I see the reason for it now. I rationalize it now. I know it's part of life. I don't blame myself anymore. But in those moments, it's just like you're in like a hormonal snake pit. You just cannot climb out. Do you believe you'll have more children? Yes. Even though I'm so old now, Paul. I still love having children. I'm annoyed that I don't have more children. Yeah. You know, I'm with you on this one. Yeah.

1:51:43So, you know, I have two. I've asked my wife countless times. Yeah. I'm like, chill, please. Yeah. And she said, I'm sorry. The oven's closed. You believe you're going to have some more? I would like to, yeah. I try every month. Every month? You're on the every month try? Yeah, I could be pregnant now. I'll let you know in three days. No, I'm 41, so it's like getting less and less likely. But having children is not for everyone. Some people don't want to do it. But if you're the person who loves it, then it's just the most magical human experience of all time. We can make people. Yes. And then just to watch them and marvel in their experiences.

1:52:25Like, it's my favorite thing to do. Absolutely. And I can see this with your children. Yeah. And I have this with my boys. And I remember so many people saying, you know, your children shouldn't be your friends. I was like, no, no, these are my buddies. Like, these are my friends. They're your people. They're my people. We hang out like I like them. You made them. I better like them. Yeah. Do you realize I made these people? I made these people because I don't like those people. These are my friends. These are my friends right here. So I could see why you're going to, why you would like to have more, right?

1:52:58I wouldn't involve like all types of science. I'm not going to get a surrogate. I'm not going to like go do this and that. I just feel like I would leave that for the people who really need it. I'm very blessed. I have three children. Okay. But for sure, I definitely try to get pregnant every month. Do you? Yeah. So this was something in the research. But I don't know if this is a fact or a myth, is that you and Bobby schedule. Oh, yeah. This is the thing. And everyone's saying that you two schedule. Do you schedule sex? It's not that we schedule sex. I know that's what it looked like in the article.

1:53:35But it's that habitually out of trying to conceive, I just log when we have sex. Okay. So we don't schedule it. We do kind of look back maybe on the week or the month and be like, oh, we haven't had sex yet this week. and then we try to be mindful about making time for it. I do know families who schedule it. They go, well, the school runs this time. Let's do it at this time. Yes. Can I say, I think this is a myth that needs to be destroyed. This notion that scheduling sex is bad. We had Dr. Karen Gurney here, one of the foremost experts. Yeah. And she said, actually, scheduling is quite effective.

1:54:12Because there's two times. I mean, you have a, you know, early in our relationships, we have this spontaneous desire. Yeah. Where it's like you need nothing to get it on. But after years, et cetera, what ends up happening is more of a responsive desire after emotional connections been built up. And sometimes what you need to do is schedule to help usher in that responsive desire. So scheduling, to me, that's efficient. I think it is. It's efficient. And early in your relationship, presumably, you don't have kids. You don't. It is the kids standing in the way. Or even a large level of responsibility, like other responsibilities.

1:54:57Yeah. Well, for us, it's explicitly the kids. Like, they watch us, like, well, Violet keeps us apart. She doesn't like intimacy between us. I think she would know if we were having sex. Like, she can just come into a room at 95 and, like, find us. She's too old to see that. Yeah. Like, we don't want. And then the babies, we still co-sleep with the babies. And so we're not going to have sex in that room. And then we're just like after we eat dinner, we're knackered. So we do have to be creative about kind of just being mindful about the week that's gone by. I'm like, we didn't have sex last week, so we have to.

1:55:27So we, when I gave that interview, I think I was only having sex maybe twice a month. And that was probably five times. I think it's better. It's better. But also, do you know what the average amount of times that people have sex per month? No. What would you guess? I think it was more than two because two seemed to really surprise a lot of the British viewing public. Like three? Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Yeah. So it's like two, three. Some people say three to four. There's this idea that everyone is having sex like five times a day. Yeah. And if you pull out people who are not in committed relationships, almost 80 % of people are not having any sex at all.

1:56:12Right? Yeah. So, two, you were basically at Abby. What do people want? We had two kids in 18 months. Yeah. And they don't sleep. That's what I'm saying. And you're on tour all the time. I'm on tour all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Come on. And we have, like, people in the house. Yeah. I mean, it'd be really appropriate for us to be having sex five times a day. We'd get caught. Yeah. It's just like being teenagers, actually. Only we were hiding from my parents. Now we're hiding from my daughter. Yeah, look at that. I was so excited to have this conversation. You filled in the blanks for me on a lot of questions that I had.

1:56:48And when I think about you, I think of someone who is tenacious. That's the theme, I think, of your life. I think you're incredibly curious. I am. You are tenacious. And what I love is that you don't seek external validation. Not anymore. Yeah, you don't. You don't. And I think these are all traits and characteristics that we should all aspire to have. Now, a question, last question that everyone gets here is if you think back to all of the conversations you've had throughout your life, which I would imagine you've had quite a few, which one stands out as the most memorable? So who was it with?

1:57:35What did you talk about? And what was the lesson that you're taking away? It's a tough one. It is really tough. What's a top of mind memorable? I think every conversation I have with Jimmy Carr is really memorable and really filled with advice. and he has so many little affirmations and life advice things and everything about his work ethic I admire. So my mind immediately went to Jimmy Carr. He's got like real daddy energy. He solves problems for people. He works really hard. He's successful. He's never offended. He just says things all the time like never complain, never explain.

1:58:24He's helped me out so many times. so it would have to be him he's definitely the smartest person i know and he was talking about some of the criticism that we get for being on everything for a while i was on everything like why why are you on this oh i can't get you off the telly and jimmy definitely gets that because he's on everything and he just turned around and he went well most people i know work every day and i think just because you are a celebrity or if you're in the creative arts you have to have the same work ethic as a teacher or a nurse or someone who's cleaning offices. It's like most people I know work every day.

1:59:03So just because I'm doing well now, it doesn't mean that I should slow down. Got to work every day. Mic drop. I so appreciate you having me here today. Thank you. It's so much fun. Thank you so much. And that's it. What an incredible episode. I want to thank Catherine so much. And as always, I have my takeaways. So here are my top three takeaways from this conversation. Number one, what we believe shapes what we seek. Catherine's story shows how internal narratives can create self-fulfilling cycles, especially in relationships. Her fears of unpredictability and danger in men led her to choose partners who embody those traits, reinforcing her beliefs.

1:59:49This reminds us that self-awareness is essential for breaking these patterns. By challenging and reframing our inner stories, we open the door to healthier and more fulfilling connections. What we seek and find begins within. Number two, Catherine's confidence in her parenting highlights the power of owning your strengths. By embracing her role as a great mom without doubt, she creates a foundation of security and love for herself and her child. This self-assurance shows that believing in our abilities, especially in caregiving, is not arrogance, but a reflection of commitment and dedication. Acknowledging our strengths empowers both ourselves and those who depend on us.

2:00:35And finally, Catherine's story highlights the transformative power of gratitude. She approaches life with a mindset of daily appreciation. For her, gratitude is the foundation of happiness and resilience. Even when life feels off track, she turns to gratitude as a guiding force, helping her regain joy and clarity. Her perspective inspires us to make gratitude a daily practice, shaping how we navigate life's highs and lows.

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