Kathy Griffin: This Joke Made Me The Most Hated Woman in America

25:58Yes. I miss her a lot. Yes. What I always remember about Joan Rivers was how outspoken she was. Fearless. Fearless. Fearless. Right. In the face of so much resistance. So much misogyny and ageism. And, you know, I... Ageism, absolutely. Ageism was rough, man. And it hasn't really gotten better. Like, she and I would talk about that a lot, because she would talk about how, in her day, it was only Moms Mabley and Toadie Fields. Like that was it. And then Phyllis Diller came along and then there was a big span of time and then Joan Rivers came along. So I will say it's a battle that I still fight.

26:35The sexism ageism thing is real. It's out there. I know people get mad when I say that, but I'm living it. So give us ladies of a certain age a chance and we can make you laugh. We're going to go deep on this particular topic. Okay. But I want to figure out at what point do you feel like you've broken through? Well, okay. When I finally got to be on a TV show where it actually was airing, and it was episode five of the entire series of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. So I go to the table read. Andrew Young was there. Quincy Jones was there. Yes. At the table read, because all the writers were white, but it was still kind of revolutionary to give a rapper a show.

27:21Yes. And Will Smith became such a great actor, and he was kind of fresh and learning. But that was like a wild set to be on. I remember there was a live audience there, and Flava Flav did the opening. Oh, really? Yeah. He had the clock and everything. Yeah. And just talked to the audience. And it was just it was so such a great learning experience to be there. And I was very intimidated by Will. And I learned a lot because he's carrying the whole show. He hasn't really been an actor yet for very long. Yes. And I'm watching every move he makes because he's gliding between the Caucasian writers who would say stuff to him in front of me.

28:04Like, how would, well, can you help us out on a particular cadence you may have with this line? Like, they would say make it blacker, but they didn't know how to say it. How to say it, yeah. So, I mean, and then Quincy Jones is right there laughing and, like, trying to tell them. And everyone was well-intentioned. Everybody was pulling for Will. And I remember he finally paid attention to me on taping night. And I thought, oh, that was very smart of him because he conserved his energy. The whole show was on his shoulders. And, yeah, I'm the guest star, but I'm still a day player, unknown. But when it came time, when the chips were down and the audience was out there, he came back and made me feel relaxed.

28:48He was joking around. And I said to him, I go, what do you want to be called? Do you want to be called Fresh Prince or Prince? And he was like, you can call me Will. And that was a great learning experience, too. And I could finally tell my friends, I'm on The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. It's a real show. It actually exists. Yes. And that was the first time that my friends and relatives were like, okay, Kathleen, maybe you can do this. Maybe. You know what's so wild about that story to me? And I was 36. 36. I wasn't 18. I was 36. You were 36 when you got that job. Yeah. So I'm a really late bloomer.

29:21And you did not give up. No. That's the part that I keep going. I had every day job. you can imagine. I had fun. I fucked every bar back in LA, you know, always below the line, every key grip, every best boy. And so I had fun, but no, I was still determined to stick with it because I was in a comedy theater company called the Groundlings and they had a lot of success stories come out of there. And I thought if I stick with it and get better, it'll be my turn someday. And then it eventually was my turn. How did you get that gig on Fresh Prince? I auditioned because I was auditioning for every wacky best friend redhead part that they had.

30:03So there were a group of us girls that I would see at every audition. And I'd walk in, see the same five girls, and they always got the job. So I'd be like, oh, hi. And it was always me, Holly Robinson-Pete, Megan Mullally, Amy Peetz, others that I'm sure went on to big fame, I can't remember. But it was funny being in that like sidekick audition click. Yes. And then eventually, eventually one of the auditions actually paid off after like 70. She, her nose is too big. Sorry, we're going to go pretty. They used to say that right to my face. They loved you, but they're going to go pretty. And they would say it like, so it's not personal, Kathy, that you had a good audition, but they're going to go pretty.

30:46I'd be like, oh, okay. Okay. I guess they went pretty. How does that begin to impact your self-esteem? Well, you internalize it. You internalize it. I think people that say they don't are lying. I mean, I internalize it to this day. I'm better at staying away from it. But, you know, when you get told by your own agent, you're really talented, but they're going to go pretty. I remember a casting director said, you are just one nose job away from getting a job. And I went and got a nose job. I would have done anything. Okay. Did the nose job change anything for you? Of course not. The nose job didn't change shit.

31:26I still had to keep auditioning and not getting jobs. But then finally Fresh Prince took pity on me and hired me for one episode. Look at that. And then I got a bunch in a row. So I got like five guest spots in one year, which was insane. You know, that was when you hit my radar. Okay. And I think it was Fresh Prince. Oh, I love it. But what I recall, though, is I feel like it was like, okay, you're a star. That's how I viewed it. So I was so acting as if I was like, okay, I'm pretty sure I'm like somewhat funny. I know I can do this role. I was tailor-made for this role. But I have to not be the one that screws up a take because then the whole crew has to stop because of me.

32:13So I was very fear-driven. Yes. But also as a comedian, though, in that space, I would imagine it's even more challenging. Well, I will say, and this is something I struggle with to this day, I do struggle doing other people's words because I then was more of an improviser than a stand up. But I was doing so much improvisation, performing two shows Friday, two shows Saturday with the Groundlings. I even taught improv classes, which is the greatest day job I ever had. It was really fun. And so I have to really work three times harder to do other people's lines because I'm so used to saying, OK, I know what this character is.

32:55Can I improvise? And on a real show like Fresh Prince, they're just like, no, no, you cannot. And I was like, OK, yes, sir. Yes. These are the lines. Yeah. So you said that there was five roles that you got in succession right away. OK. Do you remember? Mad About You was one. there was a show called Caroline in the City I got to be at ER directed by Quentin Tarantino oh really? and every gig that I would do he directed ER he directed one, A Very Special Blossom that's what I call it he directed one episode of ER and I got to be on it, well I was dating him at the time but not like exclusive but you know you were dating him?

33:37situationship I have to ask I definitely want to talk about relationships but we're here. Yeah. Well, you're the expert. So Quentin Tarantino. Yes. Kathy Griffin. In bed together. In bed together. Spooning. Spooning. Spooning. Picture it, people. Let me try to see. Do you spoon him or he spoons you? I'm the little spoon. You're the little spoon. I'm the little spoon. All right, of course you are. Of course you are. So I would not have made that match. No. Who approached who in that scenario? I think he approached me, and I remember him being incensed that I had not seen Reservoir Dogs yet. And I was like, I don't know.

34:14It sounds like a movie with a bunch of dudes. I mean, I don't know. I hear it's kind of gory. And then he arranged, not arranged, but they were screening it at a theater called The New Beverly here in town. And he called the entire cast. And I got to go watch Reservoir Dogs with the cast. That's next level. And Quentin. That's next level. That's one of my favorite films. And we went out to a diner afterwards and I got to like hang with them. And I was just trying to just be cool and like fit in and to get a couple jokes out when I can. And it was wild to be in that environment. Do you think he did that because he's trying to, you know, he's trying to show you.

34:50It's a flex. It's a flex. Yeah, of course. Like you come over here. Right. Insane. And what was it about him that attracted you to me? I like his mind. You know, he's a very complicated guy. He really loved my dad, which I found very touching. That was really sweet. and I just I am fascinated by his process you know I have this thing I love excellence and I know Quentin is problematic in many ways but I do think he has an excellence when it comes to filmmaking I know first hand he has a genuine love for filmmaking like I have for stand up so I think we connected in that way and you know we just went out a few times but he's a very interesting guy Yes, yes.

35:37You said you love excellence. I could see that. When he was writing Pulp Fiction, he would call me at like three in the morning and read me a scene. That's excellence. Because then the part that I couldn't believe is what he read to me was what ended up in the movie. So very few rewrites. Did he write all of Sam Jackson's parts? Yes. He did. Yes. And Sam loves him. Yeah. I know. I know but now we got to deal with N-word and it's a thing and I get it so I'm trying to walk the line he wrote that so he wrote that oh my gosh I know but it was also crazy that John Travolta was in it and playing a hitman so it was all nuts because I love Pulp Fiction so much I have to ask you I was there for the writing of it so did he literally read you Sam Jackson's parts okay this is This is going to blow your mind.

36:37Not only did he read all the parts with a cadence that would be inappropriate if I were to do, let's just say. He actually called me the night he wrote the scene about there being no dead N-words in the yard. And he just did. When the fixer comes up, when Harvey Keitel shows up as the fixer and he read it and it was almost word for word the way it ended up in the movie. Wow. Yeah. That is some story that's going to live with me for a long time. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yep. My gosh. Okay. Okay. So, Ken, on that subject though, right? Yeah. You're dating him. He was directing that episode of ER.

37:21Yeah. You were in that episode too. Do you feel like there's a murkiness? because I often hear in L.A., in Hollywood, there's just a lot of commingling. Yeah, it is. Happening. That's why I talk about the famous guys I went out with because it's only a couple, and most chicks my age that are in the game, they have like a whole laundry list, and I really don't love that part. I don't really care to be with a celebrity because of all the stuff that goes with it And I just I know too many. And so I felt like Quentin and I were so more friends, I'd say, that it didn't feel like that much of a conflict.

38:08OK. So, yeah. So he cast me in the episode of E.R. and that was crazy because I was such a fan of the show and I'm in a scene with George Clooney. and then um Quentin and George Clooney and I went to George's trailer and started prank calling our friends so imagine being able to call one of your friends and go hey you want to talk to George Clooney and Quentin Tarantino right now? That's what we would do and then what would they say? They would play along gosh. Because I would start to stir shit up. Like that was what I would do even on the set of ER I was like stirring the pot. Were you? Did you begin to feel as if you had arrived?

38:45at that moment? I mean, I still can't believe I was on ER. So I've never lost that sense of, oh my gosh, I am in a room, I'm working with George Clooney. He's different. Like I've worked with a lot of actors in student films and stuff, but oh, okay, now I get it. And so I started being around that and had the privilege of learning from every single person I ever worked with. I could see it. I could see it. So ER, Suddenly Susan, I would imagine. Yeah. So that was a life changing gig because I was also the girl that they always called when the first girl didn't work out. So they shot the pilot with a different best friend because I was always the best friend or the nosy neighbor or the spying aunt or the yelling at the kids to get off the lawn.

39:35Like that was me or the hooker with a heart of gold. I played a lot of hookers. Oh, yeah. Or a madam. I play a hooker or a madam. and happy to, by the way. If it paid the bills, I was happy to. Right, okay. And so I... Can I just say, a hooker with a heart of gold. Yeah, a hooker with a heart of gold. That's the key for me. That's a niche market that if you can get in, you'll work the rest of your life. Yes, yes, so you played a lot of those. There's a lot of great movies that have a hooker with a heart of gold. Yes, there are. There are. So these were all roles that you loved. Not only did I love.

40:10all right, I can't believe they let me do this. Even when I only had the little part on Fresh Prince or one day on ER, they let me bring my parents to every gig I had. And I am not kidding. So you've got these retired, old, hilarious drunks, and they can't be anything but authentic. They were totally authentic. And I would ask at my low level, I would say, I know this is a weird request, but my parents are from Illinois and they're very polite. And I promise they'll be really quiet on set, would you consider letting them watch? And I'd say they're, you know, like 85 and 87. And at the time they were like 60.

40:49And every gig said yes. So I, every time I had a real gig, I had my mom and dad there with folding chairs that they put in their trunk and they would just take out the folding chairs. They had a cooler. So the cooler had wine and maybe some like cheese and crackers. Why, why did you do that? It was so much more joyous for me to do the work knowing it was making them so excited. You know, my dad talking to George Clooney, I knew that would be a meaningful thing for him and he would tell his buddies at the golf course about it. Or I knew he was so authentic that there was no celebrity that I couldn't bring them around because they really were just who they were and they were real and people picked up on it like that.

41:32So did you feel as if your parents were proud of you? Uh, my parents were proud of me for sure, but that took a while. That was like maybe when I bought my first house or something that was more tangible because my mom always thought it's going to go away tomorrow. And I still think that. At what point do you truly see the hierarchy in Hollywood? I think it wasn't until I had, first of all, when I got to be on a show with someone as globally famous as Brooke Shields, who is a global beauty and also a famous actress and attracted a ton of attention. And at the time she was married to the tennis player Andre Agassi.

42:14Oh, yeah, she was married to Andre Agassi. Who was on meth. He was on meth. That was crazy. Let me tell you about the 90s. You're actually destroying my childhood. He wrote about it in his book. He wrote a book called Closer, like Look at Me Closer. And yeah, he dropped the bomb that he was doing, meth. Like, did they not test urine for tennis? For tennis, yeah. In the 90s? But anyway, they were quite a couple. So I learned a lot from watching them be hounded by paparazzi, how they carried themselves, when they would respond to a rumor, when they would not. And that was wild to be even in the presence of Brooke Shields and Andre Agassi.

42:52and then I saw the way men fawn over an athlete and it was different. Like they were knocked over by Brooke, but when Andre would come around, the head of the studio would come, the head of the network would come, and they could barely even talk to him. They're like, oh, Mr. Agassi, it's nice to meet you, sir, and you are great. And I was like, oh, it's different for guys. They have a different kind of adulation. And on that show is when I met Donald, Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Yeah. Suddenly Susan. Yeah. Do you remember first meeting, Dollar? Oh, yeah, of course. You can't miss him with the hair, that bird's nest of a hair.

43:27Even then, it was crazy. Now, he was not as crazy. Let me just say, he was still with Marla Maples. Okay. So he brought Marla. And I remember he was bitching a lot that Warner Brothers didn't send a private jet for him, which is funny because they just didn't do that for anybody. But he thought that they would break the rules for him. And I remember him complaining a lot about having to fly out to California from New York. But other than that, he was just a total star fucker. He wanted to be around Brooke as much as possible. He wanted to tell people that he was friendly with Brooke Shields. It was a wild episode because he was already a really famous guy, and we thought he was the successful realtor.

44:09Yes. That's what we thought. No political aspirations whatsoever. Yes, yes. And that was probably what, right around Art of the Deal? Yeah. It was prior to The Apprentice, though. Prior to The Apprentice. Okay. Now, I'm really curious about the hierarchy. And that's interesting. You saw how there was this adulation for Agassi. Yeah. Which was above Brooke Shields. Yes, so much. Okay. What else did you notice? So is that where you started to really see, okay, there's an A list? There's an A list. And I also, I learned so much from Brooke about how to deal with the media. Now, she and I deal with them in opposite ways.

44:45I run towards a controversy. She's more, you know, stately and is an idol to this day and all this. She has an actual legacy. I'm just getting in trouble whenever I can. But I did learn a lot from watching her work with the media and soften things out or, like I said, deal with rumors. And I'd never been around anyone for a length of time that was that famous. Okay. Okay. So this is suddenly Susan. Yeah. I got auditioned on a Friday. They call me Friday night. You're going to work on Monday on a show that already has an order for 23 episodes. Oh, my God. And then my whole life changed in one day.

45:26What was the fee for that? Do you remember? Oh, yeah. I got 15 an episode. So 15K an episode was my quote at the time. And in those days, nobody talked about salaries, which I didn't like. So I went around asking everybody else what they were making. And I found out I was the second lowest paid print one on the show. On the show. Yeah. Still$15 ,000. $15 ,000 an episode for$23 ,000 per episode. So this is the most that you've ever made. And I did my first HBO stand-up special. Oh. I was doing stand-up concurrently. Can I be honest? I don't know how I did it. I was doing a 40-hour job or whatever Suddenly Susan was.

46:05Right. And, you know, high stakes trying to keep the studio happy, the network happy. trying to get a raise every year I tried to get a raise and also doing stand-up and trying to make my voice separate from Suddenly Susan and then I got my very first stand-up special because I was a girl so they wanted to meet the quota at HBO and they had to give one to a girl every year and I got it I said to the head of the network why did I get a special and he said because you're a girl and you're on a network series that was exactly what you were told there was no hr there was no hr you had to figure it out yeah yeah and of course you're going to take it of course so now help me understand this first is suddenly susan you're the second lowest paid person yeah but still making quite a bit relative and i was the sidekick which is my wheelhouse and i was actually getting like nice reviews so i i kind of was i was kind going to live in the dream on that show.

47:02Yes. Yes. So now that must change you. Oh, yeah. Okay. You go from having no money to having a lot of money. It changes you. All right. So how does it change you? Well, I will. I'm going to say something that's unpopular, but it just is my experience. And that's that I felt that the people around me changed when I got money. I didn't feel like I did. I still don't feel like I do. But I have always been very financially focused. I have no debt. I own my house outright. I'm worth about$50 million. And I say that because not enough women talk about that. We're supposed to be ashamed of that. But I worked really hard to earn every dollar of that.

47:45And that's a lot of dick jokes to get there. And I got them. And so I talk about that because I think, you know, the guys kind of get to flex or talk about it or they help each other. They go, really? How'd you do it? And women, we tend to all be going for the same job. And so we're not as united as the guys are. Fair, fair. I appreciate that. I really do. But how does the circle then change around you? Well, I got I started getting to know celebrities because they would either be a guest star and suddenly Susan. so you spend five days with somebody and then sometimes a friendship would happen um or there were other shows on the lot like they were taping friends two stages down and you see the friends and i was good friends with lisa kudrow who played phoebe and so it was great to see lisa and uh see her do well and you know i i tried to get in as much with that community as i could and that's really how the concept of the D-list started is I was on the list because I was on a show, but Brooke was A-list.

48:53And I think the B-list is probably a TV star, but at the time there weren't as many TV people that did movies. C-list was like probably more of a name than I was, you know, and then D-list is where I come in. And that's my wheelhouse and that's where I feel comfortable. and it probably started then. All right. Because I feel like it's good to be on the list as an outsider looking in. Okay, why so? Because then as a comic, I get to tell you who's naughty and who's nice and lift up the veil and show you what's really going on. So as a self-qualified D-lister, do you want to elevate? Do you want to go become CBA or no?

49:40I used to, but now I don't. because the spotlight, which I've had on me in a global scandal, which we'll discuss, I have had the spotlight on me in a way that is negative. I have learned that the cliche, there's no such thing as bad publicity, is actually not true. There is such a thing. It can put you out of work for seven years. And so I used to aspire to do some list jumping to see B or A, but now I'm perfectly happy right here on the D list. On the D list? Yeah. It's like, I own this. I have enough. Like, I'm touring. I'm back on the road. I'm back to work. And so I'm happy doing my thing.

50:19Right. Okay. Okay. So now what I'm curious about is going back, Suddenly Susan, HBO special. Yeah. Which was like the equivalent of a Netflix special probably now. You know? I mean, I had a billboard on Sunset Strip. It was a big deal. Yeah. Massive, massive. Yeah. Do you remember the first bad press you got during that time? Oh, yeah. I used to laminate them and put them on my refrigerator. So I was always on the worst dress list, no matter what I wore, to any red carpet. And I was always getting in trouble for something from my act. So all the tabloids would come see my act and they would say, you know, thankless Kathy Griffin talks smack about Star Brooke Shields or whatever.

51:02And then they would show a beautiful picture of Brooke and it pictured me like this. And, you know, it happens to this day and it's just part of it. But I did start getting in trouble pretty much the day I started doing stand-up. The day. Yeah. That's when you got bad press. But that also must impact self-esteem. Oh, yeah. I actually wanted to get off the worst dress list. I worked with a really A-list stylist named Robert Verity who dressed me in the most beautiful outfits that I have to this day. Because nobody would loan me because, you know, I'm me. So I'm not going to help sell Michael Kors dresses.

51:39so I bought all my stuff so now what I'm doing you're going to love this I'm repurposing all of it so I'm wearing dresses that I wore 20 years ago and now I go vintage Valentino and everyone's like oh my god yeah how did you find it because I wore it to the Emmys in 2006 oh my gosh I remember on Suddenly Susan a wardrobe person telling me to take like I was doing a fitting and she was like take it off it doesn't fit they don't make that in a six And then I learned, oh, a six is considered fat in Hollywood. So then I starved myself and I got down to a size two. You really did? Yeah. Okay. Just so that you could...

52:19Fit in the clothes. And look better on TV. Look better on TV. Because the camera really does add 10 pounds. I learned that. That's true. Okay. And then ultimately to keep the part. To keep the part. Always to not get canned. Okay. So here is a career, a job that you've always aspired to get. you now have reached a place that we could say many people will never reach. Agree. Right? But then you start to have these trade-offs. Yeah. So some celebrities are starting to get mad at me because my act prior to getting on Suddenly Susan was really primarily about dating and my family. But once I started to enter the celebrity world and see what it's really like for myself, I just naturally thought, well, my act has always reflected whatever is going on in my life.

53:08And so things in the celebrity realm were happening, swirling around me that I just thought were funny. And that's how I started getting into kind of the niche part of storytelling that is very celebrity related. Yes, yes. Do you recall the first story that you told about a celebrity that really got you in trouble? Yeah, but when I would do material about Brooke Shields, I kind of got in trouble from the show, and I think Brooke maybe didn't love it. Sometimes she didn't mind, and I think sometimes she did mind. And I didn't, you know, have a concept of what it was like to have the responsibility that Brooke did as a genuine role model.

53:51And so I have had many years' experience of trying to talk an A-lister off the ledge and say, no, no, I was just kidding. this is what I do I'm a comedian you know you wouldn't be mad at Don Rickles you know who I looked up to and all this stuff and so um I just started uh not really being unapologetic but I would have a conversation with someone that was in my act and I I would say to their face well I'm not going to take it out you're not going to take it out and I do that to this day to this day yeah Let's talk about women in comedy for a second. Okay. Because this is the stuff that we had Katherine Ryan on.

54:35Great. And we started doing this research, and it really blew me away on the biases. According to a survey across the United States, and this is 2026, only 38 % of comedians are women. Okay, professional comedians. Yeah. In 2011, a study found that in the U.S., 89 % of women and 94 % of men think that men are funnier. I could finish that sentence for you. It's what I fight to this day. My number one obstacle in selling tickets is quite simply my gender. And I'm just saying that as someone who's been on the road for decades. And I have asked my – I call my straight guy friends bros. So I've asked my bro friends, okay, if you guys are on a bro's weekend, what are the chances that if you have a night off, you're going to go see Chelsea Handler?

55:30And the most honest ones would say, I'll be honest, we're going to see Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle. Like, it wouldn't occur to us to buy tickets for Chelsea Handler. And I'd say, well, do you not like Chelsea? And they were like, oh, no, she's funny. Right. And so I realized that is a bias that is very much still alive and still there. So I do a little bit in my show about chicks not being as funny, but think about the women in your life. Like I'm sure you had either an aunt or a cousin that would crack you up more than any guy. Hilarious. And I'd be like, okay, think of me like that. I'm your obnoxious cousin that cracks you up.

56:12Yes. So in preparation for you coming, I started thinking about comedians where I have purchased tickets to go see. And you are 100 percent. It's all guys. It's all. I know. All guys. I know. And that's not saying that I would consider women hilarious. Right. Right. Including yourself. It's just an instinctive thing where if Chappelle's in town, you guys are going. Exactly. It's an event. You're not going to miss it. and yet that same demographic can say, I think Chelsea Handler is just as funny or I think, name any female comic, Joan Rivers is just as funny. So how do we change this? We have to change it by just doing it.

56:58Every show I do, I think maybe there were a handful of guys here that came with their wives because it was a present or a Valentine's Day gift or whatever. I do shows on Valentine's Day almost every year. And so I try to speak to them and try to get them to give me a chance. And when they do, they usually laugh. Yeah, yeah. Are you finding that who goes to the shows? Because in the study, right, it's 89 % of women think men are funnier. So, like, this is an issue. Well, I have a really big gay following, and I have a really big female following. And I'm always telling my representatives, agents, managers, don't think that that isn't a demo that you should take seriously.

57:44When you have the gay community buying tickets and a lot of women for Girls' Night Out buying tickets, that's a demo to take seriously. And that's what I would be saying in response to them saying, you haven't cracked the top 10 touring artists yet. It's a battle. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Now, you still made, income-wise, you still... Did phenomenally well, right? And even to go back to when you mentioned you're worth 50 million, that's not bad. Right. It's not bad. Like, I want to really give you this right here. And I have no debt. I mean. No mortgage, no nothing. How, so that we understand, how was that built?

58:32Was it predominantly built off? Brick by brick. It was predominantly built from television and touring combination. When you have a TV show on, your ticket sales skyrocket. So I took advantage of every year that I was on a TV show, whether it was Suddenly Susan or I had an MTV show called Kathy's So-Called Reality. Then after that, I got my own show on Bravo, which is now Peacock, Kathy Griffin, My Life on the D-List. And I was touring like a beast at that time. So I'd be filming the D-List. Then I'd be going to Atlanta, do a double, and then come back, film more of the D-List. Sometimes they would come with me.

59:08We're going to Phoenix. I have a show in Phoenix. Sometimes we do a storyline around Phoenix and it was integrating those two worlds. There you go. Just literally saving every penny. Okay. Not buying Lamborghinis, not buying Rolexes, saving every penny, sucking it away because my parents are depression parents. So they really drilled that into me. Use it up, wear it out, make it do. And I've always been a saver.

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1:00:53But actually, when you're traveling, it's really important to keep your data protected. But the part that really pulls me in is that I can change my online location to the UK. so even if I'm somewhere else, any location-blocked content is still accessible. To give it a try, download Saley from the App Store or scan the QR code on the screen. And if you want 15 % off your first purchase, make sure you use my code WNTT at checkout. Details are in the episode description. Just a heads up, this next part includes discussion of suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we've included resources in the show notes.

1:01:30please take care while watching all right so then 2017 just to set the context for 2017 is i've just been canned you've just been canned yeah but i just bought a giant house in bel air because i thought i'm going to be in production on something at my house so i made my house into like a mini set okay because i thought something's coming where i'm going to need room and and real estate because I had done a reality show at my house and I was like, OK, get a house that you could do a TV show in. All right. So also January 2017, Trump has just become president of the United States. And remember, I know Donald.

1:02:09So I don't just know him from when he was on Suddenly Susan. I mean, that guy would go to the opening of an envelope. I would see him in New York all the time. Joan Rivers was friends with his sister-in-law Blaine. And I mean, there was everything from like a roast for Larry King where I sat next to Donald for like four hours. And when you're just sitting next to them on the dais, because he was doing a roast and I was doing a roast, you know, I couldn't believe the stupid shit coming out of his mouth. He was just next to me. And I've always known he was a buffoon, but I thought he was a harmless buffoon.

1:02:44So, but I would run into him at press events all the time because we both worked for NBC Universal. All right. So you knew him he knew you yeah okay he he hired me to be on the apprentice as part of a challenge one time paid me 50k yeah really called me and he goes i want to i want you to come to my golf course in bedminster and i'm like donald you offered me 10k i'm not coming for 10k and then he goes what's your number and i go my number is 50 and he did it because like any bully he just backs down. And so he caved. And I went out and I did it because I was hosting a charity event as part of a challenge.

1:03:22I was not a contestant on The Apprentice. This is Celebrity Apprentice, maybe. No, this was The Civilian Apprentice. So I didn't even know the person that I was playing for. And I did the game because I was the host and they were putting on a charity event and the headliner was Liza Benelli. So if I get to spend the day with Liza Benelli, I'm going to freaking Bedminster. I wouldn't now. For free. So would you consider yourself and Donald Trump prior to 2017 to be friends? Friendly. Very cordial. Very cordial. Like I said, he called me. When I would walk into the room, he would go, oh, here she comes.

1:04:04Look out. She's going to go for the hair. She's going to go for the hair. Stuff like that. All right. All right. So this is a good context. I knew Ivanka, Don Jr., Eric. Yeah. Okay. Isn't that crazy? That I knew them? Yeah. Like you know the family. Yeah. The family knows you. Yeah. All right. Ivanka I call bag of Xanax. I mean. Allegedly. Allegedly. Okay. Allegedly. Okay. I'm just saying. Talking to her is like talking to a bag of Xanax. Oh, really? Not a lot of energy. Not a lot going on? No. Okay. Okay. So you really know them? Yeah. So you know them. So 2017, Donald Trump becomes the president of the United States, which is immediately - Which is, let me just take a minute.

1:04:42Okay, take time. This is a UK show. Yes. Let me just say to all of the UK, I'm so sorry that we did that. I don't even know how it happened. I don't even know if he won in a free and fair election. I'll put on my tinfoil hat right now. I don't care. But yeah, he was never supposed to be the president. I was here in 2017. It was a year before I moved to the UK. Hillary was supposed to win in a landslide. I remember that night. The night wasn't the most surreal night. I think SNL Saturday Night Live did a great spoof around this. There was celebration. The Javits Center and then the Javits Center.

1:05:23The party and then the I'm going home without making a statement. I mean, I was sobbing. I was crying. I think it was one of those nights where the U.S. stood still for many. It was so bad for our team, meaning the Democratic Party and anyone progressive and liberal like myself. So that was, yeah, that's 2016, right? But January, he's brought into office. Also, we have, this is followed very quickly by the Women's March, which was the largest protest in the United States. History challenging the administration's stance around gender equality and civil rights. Yeah. All right. Which I attended and spoke at.

1:06:01You attended and spoke at. Yeah. So, Kathy, what happened after that moment? Well, first of all, based on my own knowledge of Donald, I knew he wasn't qualified to, you know, be dog catcher. And so I felt like I was on a little bit of a mission to try to convince anyone that just based on my own personal experiences with him, he's just not a very bright guy. He's a lot of pomp and circumstance and he has a larger than life personality. um but can I ask even there yeah is but you're you were you were friendly with him yeah so did you ever try to talk to him call him communicate with no because by then when he came down the escalator and said the Mexicans are rapists I was like oh no he's got dementia now like he's not just dumb Donald he's crazy he's lost his mind and then he started getting in bed with a lot of the far right characters, Fox News, and, you know, holding rallies even after he had won.

1:07:05I mean, all this stuff is unprecedented. And so I just started kind of looking around thinking, okay, America, we're going to fix this somehow, right? I mean, we're going to get this guy to resign like we did with Richard Nixon, right? And you Republicans are going to take a stand against this, right? And I was wrong. Didn't happen. That she's still alone. Oh, my God. I know. So now, how does the photo, because the photo was the touch point. Oh, my God. It was seismic. It was like, so how does it, the photo, where is the photo taken? Okay, so I was between gigs, and so I thought, why don't I do a wacky photo shoot?

1:07:46And so I found a photographer that would do it for free, and we did like four setups. One of them was me spoofing Kim Kardashian. So I was wearing this like sexy rubber bikini and sticking out my butt and trying to be like Kim, who, by the way, was my next door neighbor. My next door neighbors were Kim and Kanye for two years. It was heaven. Absolute comedy. Oh yeah, comedy happened. Oh, thank you, Lord. And so to this day, my best neighbors. Anyway, so I took a picture as Kim. I think I took one shot as like a 50s trad wife, housewife type of thing. Yes. And then I said, well, I should take some kind of a statement photo about Donald.

1:08:32I don't think people are getting how dangerous he is. and then I was just spitballing with the photographer and whoever else was around hair and makeup people and then I said to my assistant will you go get a Donald Halloween mask and I can put it on one of my wig heads and if you guys can photoshop out the wig head holder then the mask won't fold and so then it became all right he had recently said about that stupid Megan Kelly, that there was blood coming out of her. Tell me how you really feel about it. Anyway, so she had moderated a debate. And even though I don't like Megan Kelly, I didn't like it when Donald later on said there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever.

1:09:21Like, is that a menstruation reference? I don't even know. But I said, I remember thinking, let's make blood come out of his wherever and see if he likes it. And so then I had the idea to put ketchup all over the head and make it look like Perseus and Medusa. Yes. The famous statue. Yes. Which I should have done a side-by-side of a picture of that sculpture, by the way. I think that would have changed the narrative a little. It would have changed the context. Yeah. Absolutely. You know who told me that? Hillary fucking Clinton. Are you serious? Not even kidding. She goes, I thought the picture was a spoof of Medusa and Perseus.

1:09:56And I was like, why did I think of that? I was like, oh, because you're smart enough to be the president. And you're supposed to be. She should have told you. I know. Yeah. She should. Although, let me ask you this. Do you now regret that? Would you go back in that moment and change anything? No. The only thing I regret is for one day I apologized. I had a press conference and I was a wreck and I hadn't had sleep. And I was crying and I was a wreck. and I was asking the press to spread the word that we have to take in how dangerous this guy is, that I may have offended you with my photo, but still keep the narrative that this guy doesn't know how to be president.

1:10:37He's running our country into the ground like I've never seen in my lifetime and nobody's coming to make it better. So I thought that there would be a groundswell of support around me and that Hollywood would back me up and women would back me up and everyone would back me up and and the picture would be a statement that would live on but um everybody abandoned me literally yeah let's step by step this yeah not everybody i'm exaggerating but i'd say i lost about 75 of my friends for good that's that's significant yeah i had someone say um i was going to produce a project with you but you went and got yourself indicted okay so i was people were saying that to my face.

1:11:22I was having United States senators calling me saying, what have you done? You're the worst thing to happen to the Democratic Party. And then the White House pushed out the narrative that I was literally a member of ISIS. So the White House pushed it out as a meme. And I know this from a FOIA, which is a Freedom of Information Act. So I got my FOIA, although it's heavily redacted to this day. But two government agencies put me under investigation immediately because they were trying to spin a narrative that, number one, I was serious about trying to kill Donald, and number two, that I was the queen of ISIS.

1:11:58That you were the queen of ISIS. The queen of ISIS and the new face of ISIS, and that American troops would be beheaded in my name and that they would be making videos saying, this one's for you, Kathy Griffin. Okay. How did the photo then get to TMZ? I think the photographer was dumb enough to sell it to them. He probably sold it for 25 bucks. Oh my God. Yeah. So, so after the photo is taken, you're happy with what's happened. Oh, I thought nothing of it. I wasn't one bit afraid. I wasn't, I thought this picture will live on a gay blog for two days. That's it. And then it'll just disappear where nobody will care.

1:12:34So, so the photographer you think then sells it to TMZ. Yeah. TMZ then posts the photo and then take me through what happens from your perspective. Okay, so the phone starts ringing. And one thing I learned was members of the press somehow can get my cell phone. So I don't know if I've had the cell phone number too long, or I'm just too approachable. But I started getting calls on my personal cell from the New York Times, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Atlantic, every publication and TV show you can think of. And they were asking for interviews in a way that I knew wasn't good. It was like, we want to be the first one to have you talk about the disaster.

1:13:15Or do you want to come on the show or talk to us and clear your name in light of the fact that you're the new face of ISIS? So the media, they bought that narrative as well, which is still shocking to me. Still shocking. You know, my old buddy Anderson Cooper issued a tweet right away saying he doesn't stand by me and whatever he called me. And, you know, that hurt so bad because he was my friend and I loved him. And I thought as an experienced journalist, he's got to understand that nothing bad is going to come from that picture. No one's going to get beheaded because of a silly Kathy Griffin picture.

1:13:55And, of course, no one did. But the media really bought it coming directly from the Oval Office, which is what I found in my Freedom of Information Act. So now I'm beginning to see how in that Anderson example. example. And then I was on the ticker on CNN. Yes, yes. And weren't you hosting the New Year's Eve? Yeah, I did that for 10 years. You were great. You were exceptional. It was fun. I loved it. Yeah, yeah. And so you started losing jobs. Yeah. Well, I was then on the no-fly list. Then I was on the Interpol list, which is the international version of the no-fly list. And then I was on the terror watch list, which is called the five eyes list.

1:14:34Did you have to then get security? Yeah. I spent a lot of money on this whole thing. Okay. But I have no regrets. You have no regrets? No, I would do it again. How much did you spend defending yourself? Probably about$3 million. And that went to protection? Security and lawyers. And lawyers. I had to really lawyer up because they wanted to charge me with the crime of conspiracy to assassinate the president of the United States, which holds a lifetime sentence. And they would call my lawyers daily, seeing if I would go into the federal building where they could get a shot from a helicopter of me in the plastic handcuffs.

1:15:12Okay. Did you believe that you could actually get apprehended? Yes. And spend your life in prison? Yes. I mean, the hatred coming toward me from the president himself and cabinet members was massive. Did you have anyone come to your defense? Well, my lawyers are excellent. And I have, you know, probably four different firms I work with and they all love me because I'm a very good client. I'm always in trouble and I always pay on time. And I consider myself to be a patriot because I've performed for the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and Kuwait and Uzbekistan. And I definitely lost the troops that day.

1:15:55They did not enjoy that picture, did not like the artistry one bit. and a lot of people are still really, really mad about that picture. Yes. And so I had people that were in my life as friends simply call me and say, I just can't be associated with you, like Anderson did. Like Anderson, yes. Yeah. Have you ever spoken with Anderson since? No. That's something. I know. So I could see how this impacts your entire life. Yeah. Your career, your friendships. How does it impact your mental health? It was crazy because... I had so much paparazzi waiting for me to go anywhere. I felt like I couldn't leave my house safely.

1:16:38Going around town with security is not fun for somebody like me because, like I said, I'm happy to be on the D-list. It's not really a life I'm comfortable with. and getting visits from the feds that were once trying to prosecute me, but also had to do their duty as FBI agents and tell me when there was a credible death threat. So the FBI was showing up at my house like once a week to tell me about what they deemed to be credible threats. And I had three piles. I had like credible threats, maybe credible threats, harmless threats. And so I had to take in and they had to try to keep track of the physical mail I was getting because people still write physical letters and also the online threats, which were, of course, endless.

1:17:29And if it's I guess if it's a credible threat, you then have to figure out. They have to tell you what it is. They can tell you a little bit, but then they always say, well, we're in the middle of an investigation. So like there was a guy that had a list of people he was going to kill. He was called the shoe bomber. And we had to take our shoes off for airplanes because one time a guy put a bomb in the sole of his freaking sneaker. And that guy had a list of people he was going to kill. And I was on that list. So the FBI had to come over and be like, OK, you're on the shoe bombers list, which means all of his fans, because he's so deep in MAGA world, they're they're willing to do the dirty work for him now that he got caught.

1:18:12So that inspires other people to want to take your life. Yeah, they were worried about copycats. Okay, okay. I can't imagine how you even fall asleep. Like, how do you even eat cereal? Like, how do you exist? You don't. I remember that day. This is really weird. That day I had planned a girls' dinner, and I was crying all day and in my pajamas and probably hadn't taken a shower or anything, And I was just fielding phone calls and lawyering up. And yet I kept my dinner date. And guess who came over? Kris Jenner. Kris Jenner came over. And she brought Rita Wilson and Melanie Griffith. And they comforted me.

1:18:57And they were there for me. And, you know, Kris was so funny. Because she's like putting on lipstick going, oh, just apologize. I tell my kids to apologize all the time. And so I thought, oh, if I apologize, it'll go away. and then Melanie Griffith goes, I think tomorrow you should do Pence's head. And I'm like, Melanie, you're not helping. And so they were trying to keep me laughing and they kept me going that first night. Yeah. I see that you needed them. Yeah. You needed them. Yeah. And they showed up. They weren't afraid to walk in the house. Yes. Because you're right. The paparazzi were there.

1:19:30Yeah. So by them walking in, they're signaling. Yeah. We don't think she's a member of ISIS. Look at that. We don't think she's trying to kill anybody. Look at that. Look at that. so now Kathy we can go as far or light on the subject as you want but then the turmoil internally continued for you yeah so I then became addicted to prescription pills that's how I dealt with it so when you ask how did I sleep I didn't and so that that was my life for about two to three years and I didn't know it could get out of control because I thought well these are prescribed and um then i tried to take my life and all i tried i took like 100 pills and all that happened was i fell down my own staircase and so i had all these bruises and lacerations and then one of my doctors said you should come in for an x-ray to see if you broke any bones and when i went in they were like and we're going to keep you for three days and i was on a 51 50 psych hold okay For three days.

1:20:30Lockdown. Lockdown, which is where they don't allow you. Yeah, they keep you in this like war to evaluate you. Yep. See if you'll harm yourself. Yeah, because I'm legit crazy. Like a lot of comics are like, I'm crazy. No, no, I have papers to prove it. I'm really crazy. You do have the papers. Yeah. You do have the papers. But we could spend a second on you wanting, you said, to take your life. Yeah. And you tried to. you've had such a glorious life right and then the two years were hell yeah for you well I also was the out of work is what got to me internally just I was so used to either being on a tv show or being on the road that I didn't know what to do with myself all day I did I was like who am I if I'm not being Kathy Griffin and making you guys laugh and so that is my identity you know a lot of people say your career should not be your identity.

1:21:26I don't feel that way. I love my career so much that they're very intermingled. And also, I was the most hated woman in America. Like, I know that sounds hyperbolic, but it really was insane. Yes. But also, too, you say America, but that made you a global figure. So luckily, I had a very good agent at the time, and he said, guess what? You can sell overseas really well because outside of America, they think you're a hero. And so I got to play everywhere from Singapore to Reykjavik all because of that picture. Really? Yeah. So you started, so, well, can we go back to this? Yeah. This is wild to say, Kathy, let's go back to the psych ward.

1:22:05Okay. You and the psych ward. You come out. Yeah. Then how long do we go before you're playing? Oh, no, I was playing shows right after the picture. Not right after, but like three months after the picture, I was playing Europe. Oh, my goodness. So you were going to play. Okay. Yeah. And selling out shows. Selling out. And people were holding signs. And I became the lady from the head picture. And like I said, recognized globally because of that photo. And people wanted to stop me on the street and have me pose where I hold their head. And it was wild. To go viral in that way was really wild. It's wild.

1:22:47It was the best thing that happened in my career, but it also makes my stomach sink to kind of think about going through it. Yes, yes. And to have lost the love from home. Yeah. Yeah, that seems to be the most painful. Yeah. Yeah. Family. How did family show up for you during that time? My mom was amazing. My dad had already passed. And my mom just hates Trump and hates everything he's about. And so when he came for her daughter, she really stepped up. And she was coming to my house almost daily. And that gave me something to do, to feel like I was looking after Maggie, you know. And I did have some friends that came through.

1:23:32Like Aubrey Plaza literally brought a casserole to my house. And that meant so much because once again, she was walking in the door like, I don't care who sees me. She's my friend. And I did have a handful of people show up and it like those girls coming over that night. Yes. There was never more heat on me than that night. And they were like, oh, yeah, dinner's still on. And so I I had to learn how to make new friendships at my age, which was a challenge. But now I figured it out. Yeah, I could see that you have there's a there's a clique of of girls. who love you. And I love them. And loves you.

1:24:11And on that, I have a little surprise for you. Uh-oh. No, it's not bad. This is good. I want you to take a look at this, and if you could read that out loud for us. Okay, Kathy is on the envelope.

1:24:25Oh, my God. All right, it's a picture of me with Terry Hatcher from Desperate Housewives, and it's all over social media. She's amazing. Dear Kathy, I love your commitment to being you, to reinvention, to inclusivity and your work ethic. Your strength is inspiring and I'm grateful to be included in your community of women and men who want to keep thriving and striving to make this world and our lives better every day. Love, Terry. Yes. I mean, and she was on an ABC show under a lot of scrutiny. And so I became friends with Hatcher after the picture. After. I didn't realize that it was after the picture.

1:25:04Yeah. How did that happen after? Because I learned two things. Number one, when I got sober, I joined AA. So I have a lot of friends from AA. And that's a community in itself. And I was like, okay, good. That's a really, they have a system in place to kind of make friends. And that was great. And then I just started reaching out to people via old school Twitter when you could DM somebody and you knew that it was actually them. And so I had been at Warner Brothers when Hatcher was doing the show Lois and Clark. Lois. And I thought, oh, my God, she survived Dean Cain, who now wants to be an ICE agent, by the way.

1:25:48He's like on Fox doing ICE training videos. That's how much he's lost his mind. So I thought, I want to reach out to Terry Hatcher because she's a survivor. She survived that guy. And she had to carry that show. And she was the first star on Desperate Housewives, so they built the show around her. And she's been through some shit. So I just started reaching out to women and gay folks that have just been through some shit. And that's where I started trying to rebuild and start new friendships. Look at that. Now, you just mentioned when you got sober. Yeah. Because the pills, they still call it sober, even though I've never had a drink in my life.

1:26:20Okay. To this day. It was the pills. Yeah. Okay. So this makes sense. So you became healthier. Yeah. Started reaching out, making friends. But still, that was a six to seven year period. Yes. Would you say that, so there was the attempt to cancel you? Well, they canceled me. Do you believe you were canceled? Oh, yeah, they canceled me real good. Okay. They canceled the shit out of me. I mean, I was out of work for seven years. For seven years. Nobody would hire me. Do you believe you're still canceled? I think I might be uncancelled or starting to get uncancelled now. There's just a sea change.

1:26:58You know, I'm on the social media app called Threads. It's owned by Meta, which I hate. But I get a lot of people there saying we were wrong about the picture. Now we get it. Now we see how dangerous he is. Now we see that you had to be as extreme as you were. And I've had people say that to me in particular since he started the second administration. How do you think history is going to look back at you in that photo? I don't know. I can only imagine. I can only imagine. I can't. I have a feeling that when I croak, then people will be nicer. Like, I watched it happen with Joan Rivers. Because when she was alive, a lot of celebrities were like, she's mean.

1:27:45She called me out on fashion police. But then the day she passed away, which was very unexpected, if you remember, then everyone was like, oh, my God, she's. She's an icon. Yes, she's. We lost one of our greats. Yeah. And so if I get anything resembling that, I think it'll be after I croak. Okay. But not before. I would say that, yeah, there's still a feeling of fear around me, I think, on the part of buyers. I call them buyers. Okay. Anybody that would hire me. Hollywood, television. Yeah. But tour-wise, you can still tour. Yes, thank God for the people. If it wasn't for John Q. Public and Jane Q.

1:28:23Public just putting down their money and buying tickets, I would still be canceled. So people uncanceled me. So today, as you sit here in this beautiful yogi position. I know, right? I can't believe you've been sitting there so long in that perfect position. I swear so much, everybody. I'm sorry. Sorry, okay. How are you doing that? How do you feel about your mental health today? I feel good about my mental health. I have been diagnosed with complex PTSD. And I know that's something that we usually say for combat veterans. But I've had everybody tell me that I have it from my shrink to my oncologist, survived cancer.

1:29:01I had lung cancer. I have only half a lung on my left side. You have to get that. I had lung cancer, even though I never smoked. So just surviving a bunch of stuff. And even complex PTSD, if we spend a second. Yeah. How does that distinguish itself? Well, like right now, I'm having a panic attack. And so I'm sweating profusely, even though in my heart, I'm not nervous. And you couldn't be nicer. but something is telling me I'm in fight or flight mode right now. Right now? Yeah. Really? So you're having a panic attack now? Yeah, I can't help it. But I'm still functional. Like there was a time when then I couldn't be functional.

1:29:36So I'm sweating profusely, but I can still talk to you. Can I ask? Yeah. And you can tell me to stop. Was it the conversation that we just had? It's seeing the lights. It's knowing that one person could not like something that I say today in this room and then go on Reddit and then start a whole group of people. And then maybe it gets blown out of proportion or whatever. And it could all happen again. I see it. I see it. And I see how that connects with the complex people. You never know. Remember, I just did a little photo shoot at my house and it blew up. So everywhere I go, I don't know if it's going to happen again.

1:30:16So you're on edge. I'm on edge. And yet I still keep doing it. You know, like I posted something where when I had shows last weekend, I had the audience chant, fuck ice, fuck ice, fuck ice. And so I chose to, somebody caught video of it. And so I chose to put that video on all my social media. And I just waited. I thought, oh, here we go. But the response was positive. Yes. And this is where I think I feel, this is just my little opinion, is that I feel that the day and age that we're at now, I think that there's going to be more and more and more reception for you. Oh, from your mouth to God's ears.

1:31:01Yes. And for your voice. That's how I feel. And that's my interpretation when I talk to people. For example, I'll always seed the guests who are coming with my friends and family. Now, this is my community, but I'll say, yeah, we got Kathy. It's like, oh my gosh, Kathy Griffin's coming in. So there's a lean in, there's an excitement, and I would imagine that's going to continue. If it does, then I really won. I mean, I do feel like I prevailed against the Department of Justice and the President of the United States because they never charged me. I was interrogated under oath. I passed the interrogation.

1:31:41They kept trying to get evidence that I had the means and the intent to actually go kill Donald. So I went through that full investigation. And I have a letter from the federal government saying you are officially exonerated. So that is a framer, by the way. And that's so crazy to have that. But the fact that I got through all that, I think is why people are receptive to me now is I think they also saw me survive addiction and cancer and divorce. And I talk about all of it in my shows or when I do interviews. And so now I really enjoy connecting with my audience. You said you survived divorce as well.

1:32:22Yeah. We have to talk about relationships. That hurt the worst. Divorce. I didn't think I'd ever come back from that one. More than... More than the scandal. More than the scandal. I was down for the count. I was looking at your relationships, Kathy. Honestly, I'm blown away with your relationship resume. Yeah. You have a relationship resume. Yes, I do. I mean, even some of the dating, like we talked about Quentin Tarantino. Yeah. I didn't know you dated Conan O 'Brien. Well, Conan and I went on one date where Conan didn't know it was a date, but I thought it was a date. And then the check came and then he was like, do you want to split the check?

1:32:58Which was a pizza and Diet Coke, by the way. And I was like, oh, sure. And so I thought I had a date with Conan, but Conan was just going to write us. And we wrote a sketch together for the Groundlings. Oh, my gosh. I mean, Steve Wozniak. Steve Wozniak. That was a shocker. Proposed to me. Are you serious? Yeah, via email. Look, I love Steve. I'm friends with his wife, Janet. He's a great guy. You know, dating the guy that invented Apple, the founder of Apple, was Steve Jobs. Like I said, I have a thing for excellence. Yes. So Woz was a horrible boyfriend. He would just take me to Denny's and like.

1:33:37No, he didn't. Yes, he did. Billions of dollars takes me to Denny's. But, you know, Bob's big boy. But but he does have a beautiful mind. Yes. And he is very generous about talking about the early days of Apple and what it was like to literally be in that garage, you know, doing the first home Mac. Yes. So he proposed via email. Yeah. Do you respond no via email? Yes. What did you do? I said, send the jet. I go, if you want to date me, send the jet. And he's like a robot. He's like, I do not use private jets. I fly commercial. You didn't get the jet? No. Yeah, yeah. Now I'm the one who flies the jet.

1:34:14That's right. You do. Yeah. You do. Dating younger as well. Yeah. I haven't been asked out by a guy my age in like 30 years. Always guys much younger. Much younger. How much younger? Well, my last husband was 18 years younger than I am. And I would say if I'm 65 now, I had some dates recently and the oldest one was 47. The oldest was 47? Yeah. Okay. More like 45-year-olds like me. What about the younger, the youngest? Yeah, I did have an affair of the heart with a 23-year-old, which I wrote an essay about for my substack. and it was something I wanted to put out there because I feel that because of ageism and sexism, there's this kind of myth out there that at a certain age, you don't desire sex anymore or you can't fall in love anymore or you can't have great sex.

1:35:13And so I had a short but meaningful affair of the heart is what I call it. And it was with a guy that was much younger and he was such a great guy. You know Cindy Gallop? She was a tech exec. Also, she has Make Love Not Porn. Oh. Yes, is the site. I don't know who she is. Sorry. Yeah, so Cindy's in her 60s. Still getting laid? Oh, yeah. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. That's the message. And she exclusively dates younger men. I don't mean to exclusively date younger men. I'm just telling you that's who asked me out. Okay. And I went on the dating apps, like not celebrity. I went on four dating apps.

1:36:02One of them was called Elite Singles. Elite Singles. Yes, and I was on Hinge and Bumble and Raya. All right. Yeah. And you as you. As me. So you get to know everything about me, and then I got to make sure you're not catfishing me. I mean, the disadvantage, the disparity was there because I got to kind of take these guys at face value. And with me, you can like look up anything about me on the Internet or anything. Yes. And so but it was fun going on dates. Yes, I could see it. So you're single now. Yeah. All right. Do you. But you're open. I'm open. But it's hard to meet people. Yeah, it's look, I'm still a 65 year old female comic.

1:36:43Most guys don't picture themselves in the back of a theater laughing at their wife while she is standing on stage with a microphone being vulgar. And that's what I do. Night after night, city after city. And it's, it's, I just think straight guys aren't really wired that way quite yet. But I have hope for the future. Okay. And actually, it makes me hopeful that younger guys ask me out because I think they didn't grow up with the same sexism as the guys my age. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. Absolutely agree with that. So you were open. A little bit open. A little bit of it. Yeah, a little bit of it.

1:37:20A little bit of it. I want to get laid. Don't get me wrong. Absolutely. Right. Don't these bitches that are walking around going, if I never have sex again, I won't miss it. Don't speak for me. I'll miss it. I miss it now. Okay. Okay. Self-esteem has shown up throughout this, and I would imagine that's impacted. You talked about the nose job that you had earlier in your career. Oh, I call my new tour new face new tour. Exactly. Because I had my third facelift. And let me tell you, I told this doctor to give me a good yank. I said, get back there, get a couple construction workers, and just pull the skin until you can, and then snip it off.

1:37:57And so I talk about all of it. Yes. All right. So this is this is the new tour. Yeah. New face. New tour. Yeah. Like literally. Literally. I say the doctor's name. I I say he did my friend Sia, the singer, and she had the best before and after pictures and she gave him an award publicly. So she's mentioned him. And so I went to this guy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you look great from I will say that it's not the cameras like you look you look. He did a good job. I didn't. He yanked. And I got a neck pull. I had the neck of a 13-year-old. They just yanked it. They just yanked it. And then what do they do?

1:38:33They snip it off and sew you up. Really? Really? Is this the same person that your friend, that Kris Jenner went to too? Oh, I can't afford Kris's guy. Kris's guy is a million a face. Mine was$218 ,000. Can you imagine? Are you serious? $218 ,000. Almost a quarter of a million dollars on my facelift. I know. How crazy is that? You spent a quarter of a million. Yes. But Chris spent... A million. A million. Well, she got hers comped, I'm sure. I would think hers was free because... Yes. Yeah, and she looks great. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, yeah, she looks good. Yeah. She looks good. She looks like Kim's daughter.

1:39:13She's really... The clock has gone back for her. The clock... When you were... Did you live next to her as well? No, I lived next to Kim and Kanye. Okay, but they didn't... There wasn't like a... Oh, Chris came over all the time, yeah. Okay, okay. Okay. What was, I mean, living next to them, what was... It was a dream. Because I know you've talked quite a lot about this. I do. I talk about them in my new special, which is on YouTube, called Kathy Griffin, My Life on the PTSD List. And I talk about just what it was like to be their neighbor because it was as surreal as you would imagine. They had just insane amounts of security, which, by the way, she really had my back during the picture thing.

1:39:52That's why I won't turn on her because... And she might be a Republican now. I'm not sure. I don't even know if she knows what parties are. But anyway, when that picture scandal happened, she was there and she would come over. And I would say, you know, I got my security people and now you have yours. And we should keep an eye on each other. And, you know, she was held up in Paris at gunpoint and that was real. And we came over and we talked that out because I've been through my experiences. and I've been held up at gunpoint twice. And so we talked that out and stuff. And Kanye is not a big talker, but they had just two kids at the time.

1:40:33And it was just great having them as neighbors. Was he at that? So he had not run or announced running. Oh, no, he was doing the ranches in Montana or whatever. Okay, Wyoming. Wyoming, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He was doing that. Okay, wow. And he was still doing music and he had not expressed his love for Donald Trump at that time. Okay, yeah. Which would have been awkward for me, the next door neighbor. With the head, the head lady. That would have been wild. I know. Okay, okay. So now, if you look at self-esteem today, where does it stand for you? It's like a graph that goes up or down. It's no middle.

1:41:13Either I feel really good about myself or I feel really shitty about myself, and I don't know why. All right. So I have good days where I'm like, okay, I'm winning in life. And then I have other days where I'm like, oh, I'm the biggest loser. Okay. The complex PTSD, what I do know about it is that PTSD is normally one incident that drives it. Complex PTSD is multiple incidents over a period of time. Yeah. And you could see how there's many traumatic events. The Trump picture, cancer, addiction, divorce, not working. Yes. To be hated at such a high level by so many people for so long. That was it.

1:41:53That's when it kind of kicked into high gear. But the flip for the other side of the coin is that you have so many people who love you. It's amazing. Yeah. And speaking of this. Yes. I want to show you this. Terry Hatcher loves me. You got Terry. I mean, I got Hatcher. You got me. You got me. I got you. I'm coming over. I want to show you some of these things. Okay. All right. So actually, tell me who this is. Okay. And we're going to play the how much they love you game. Okay. All right. So who is that? Oh, that's me and Kris Jenner. Yes. I love her. I don't love that she's besties with the Bezoses.

1:42:28I got to say that. But she's a good, kind person. Yeah. She seemed to really have your back. Yeah. All right. When she didn't have to, by the way. Yes. She didn't have to. Yes. So now here's another one. Okay. Who's in this? Oh, okay. These are my good friends. Sia, the singer from Chandelier and Titanium, and Jennifer Lewis from Black-ish and was an original harlot. And there we are just taking a silly picture. And I see these ladies all the time. Jennifer and I just texted Sia and I see each other once a week. There you go. See? The love is real. The love is real. The love is real. This actually could be my favorite photo.

1:43:06Okay. Who's in that photo? Tatum. Look, Tatum's a whore, alright? He's a dirty whore. He made his empire because he's hot and everybody wants to fuck him. And I've known Tatum since he was a male dancer or whatever. And so I just know him through the charity circuit or something. But I love him because he takes a joke on the chin. Yes. So I said, let's make it like we're cuddling. It looked like you were cuddling. He wants me so bad. Give me a break. He's gonna call. He'll do. This is a moment that we didn't talk about. And I had seen you in this but didn't know this was you. Oh, tell me. Oh, yeah, the real Slim Shady.

1:43:48So here I am manhandling Eminem. And so I was on Suddenly Susan at the time, and I was touring like a beast, and at first I said no because it was only 10K. And then the guy who did my hair said, no, this guy Eminem is really big. You should do it. And I was like, no, I've heard of him. But the song hadn't come out yet, and it was so old school that they had my assistant meet someone at a corner and give a cassette of just the part that I was to lip sync, which is, may I have your attention, please? May I have your attention, please? We're going to have a problem here. And so I got to play the nurse and I went up to the director, who was Dr.

1:44:26Dre, and I said, what made you think of me for this role? And he goes, Snoop said you're funny. What about that? And then this one comes up to me. He goes, hi, I'm Marshall. Marshall. Stories. Stories keep coming. You know what? I always say a well-lived life. That's what I'm saying. A well-lived life. No complaints. No complaints. It's like the stories make you rich. And then on top of it, you're rich. Yes. Like you've won. You've won. I've won. So now, final question. This is a question everyone gets. Okay. Okay. You've had some incredible conversations in your life. When you think about the most memorable, who was it with and what did you learn?

1:45:10Okay. You're not even going to believe this. When I had a dinner party for my late friend, Sidney Poitier, he comes to the house for dinner. And to get him talking about his iconic work was a difficult thing to do. He just wasn't. That's not how he talked. But if I could get him deep and if I could make him laugh long enough, I could get a good story out of him. And he told me about going to see Nelson Mandela in prison. and what that experience was like and how he was going to play Mandela. And Mandela was making Sidney known like, okay, I'm going to talk to you and give you a little help for your research, but I need you to see this prison environment that I'm in.

1:45:58And I need you to understand what it means. And to be able to have had a conversation like that with the great Sidney Poitier is a conversation that will stay with me forever. Absolutely. insane. But there you go. Like, of course he's your friend. He loved me. He would go, young lady, you make me laugh. And I would go, Sydney, put away your Medal of Freedom. I get it. You won the Medal of Freedom. Okay. Do you have to bring it to every party? And he would laugh. Yeah, of course. Of course. You know, Kathy, I will say this is I was aware of you, but not this aware of you. And I would say that I believe that you are one of the most important voices of our time.

1:46:41Oh, my goodness. No, truly, truly. And I believe that you're going to find that as we continue on through the years, more and more people will fully, not just recognize it, but make you feel that. I hope so. I mean, I'm ready. Yeah, yeah. I love it. Well, I will see you in London then. Okay, great. I can't wait. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was super. All right. So it was just mentioned out here, but I do have to repeat this, is many people say, don't meet people who you admire or you look up to or who are idols. And she beat my expectation. Kathy is representation of how complex we are as humans.

1:47:28Here's someone with uber confidence, extreme trust in what she sees and who she is, but yet low value of her worth, which is poor self-esteem. And this is reminiscent of so many of the public figures that we talk to, how the industry beats you down slowly. She's 65 years old, moved to LA at 18, over 40 years of being in the industry. And that's over 40 years of being told, you're not good enough. You don't look good enough. You're too big. Change this. Over 40 years of this rejection, it takes a toll. When she said that she was having a panic attack in the interview, right? Or that showed me how much weight rides on her and her mental health and how much of a warrior she is.

1:48:35You know, I would say a well-lived life is not necessarily about how much money you have. I mean, I think we often hear that. But when you can sit back and reflect upon your life and all of these experiences, how you touched people's lives, how your presence created some change, that's a well-lived life. You strike me as someone who was an early feminist. Yeah. You aspire to work at Hooters. Yes. Catherine Ryan is a Canadian stand-up comedian and TV personality who has won over the hearts of the UK with her blunt delivery since 2012. Hooters was interestingly the place that I found the most empowerment.

1:49:19I got tired of competing in the bikini pageant so I asked to host the bikini pageants. Already you could see that you were a nuisance for good. I like them. The greatest comedians have come from a place of trauma. True or false? I think... Mic drop. Audiences are still completely unable to receive comedy from a woman. If a man's not funny, he's not funny. But if I'm not funny, women aren't funny. Someone called actual Child Protective Services, and I was investigated for I don't know what. They don't tell you. Was there any moment where you believed she would be taken from you? A question that a lot of women face.

1:49:57I want to be a mom, but my partner sucks. What do you do if your biological legacy is impeded by the partner that you're with? How do you make that decision? This is going to be the father of my child. In proximity, I guess, it was the nearest, closest to me. I think that if we really had true biological equality, women...