Kerry Katona Part 2: I Went From £400K a Year to Bankrupt! Why I Had To Turn to ØnlyFans

28:43So with you having an affair, you believed in the institution of marriage, right? Massively. You had been betrayed in your previous marriage. And by Mark during the whole marriage, every other week there was a girl and the girls were sat outside the house in the car. but because of all the stories that was going on and I was trying to point to Brian and point to me mum and I wasn't talking to me mum, and so I had nowhere to go really at all, Paul. I thought, I've just got to stick this out. I've just got to stick it out. Hope it'll get better. And then I got offered by Closer magazine to go and do a weight loss thing at a boot camp, GIJ boot camp for two weeks.

29:26Okay. First two weeks I've ever been away from that. I remember this is, I sat with my mum and it was the last time I did coke. And I sat there with my mum and we used to have a tray we used to get out of the oven to hide the coke and we used to have this pipe. I sat there with my mum and my driver was outside and I'd been on coke all day and I did a line with my mum. I said, I don't want this life no more. I said, I just don't want to do this shit anymore.

29:57I think my mum saw, he said, My mum saw the look on my face and went, I don't want this anymore. I got in the car and they took me all the way to Kent to the GIJ boot camp.

30:13And it was more than a weight loss thing for me. It was like I was training. It's amazing what exercise can do for someone's head. Yes. That blew me away, Paul. I did not realize what that can do instead of having medication one of the most effective forms of fighting a mild depression exercise go for a power walk I was at the start I was at the bottom and at the end I was at the front it was like coming out of a coma it was like the fog it was like someone lifting a veil over and you see someone giving you glasses for the first time and just going wow i feel amazing and halfway through it mark came to see me with my son max he was only he's only one max and nothing had happened with the trainer at all during the whole period of the work of the the two weeks we were there okay and um you know it was towards it was towards the end they had to there was a bit of flirting and he ended up he was married I was married I'm not proud of it but I don't regret it because I think if I hadn't had done what I did and hadn't had gone where I'd gone Paul I don't think I'd be here I think I was in such a lost place that I think I probably would have been dead and I think that gave me my chance to get away from Mark because I'm so loyal that I went straight home and went I've been having an affair I couldn't be on spy, me Paul I tell you everything.

31:49Oh, wow. Interesting. So you went home. I told you. So the affair happened. I fell in love, like. I fell madly in love with the guy. At the end of the two weeks. No, it had been going on. It had been going. I'd been using excuses to go back and two, back and two. Oh, okay. And I couldn't handle it. I couldn't carry it on. I see. But because this guy was drug-free, you know, he was a Marine. He had structure and routine. and it was like encouraging, get up, do a workout, do training, stay away from that shit. It was like, I was like, oh my God, this is like real life. This is like, it was like the trees went greener.

32:26I see. Everything went into colour. Mark never laid a hand on me. But the emotional abuse he used to say, he's cold, care, and quit staying. He's going to want you. And you start believing it, you know. And then meeting the guy you were met, he was very popular, no pun mentioning everyone's names because he stayed with his wife. I want everyone to be happy. it was a million years ago. To go from that to that was just like, oh, oh, I see. Night and day. Night and day. How did you, did you feel at all that you were betraying Mark, your husband? Yeah. You did? I did. Okay. How did you reconcile that with yourself?

33:01I didn't. It was killing me. It was killing me. And in the end, I just, and I was being filmed by this other woman. What was the documentary that we did? She was following me everywhere. And in the end, I said on camera, I've been having an affair, Matt was in the kitchen. I just couldn't hold it in. I couldn't hold it in. It was... So you said it on camera before you told him? Yeah. And then went in the kitchen. And I went, I've met somebody else. What was his reaction? He went apeshit. I'm sure he did. Apeshit. I said, I'm done. I don't want this life. Didn't want it. Don't want to be like this.

33:41and that's when I packed the kids up in the car in the middle of the night so the press couldn't find me. And I moved 350 miles away and caught everybody out of my life. Okay. And that's when I turned my life around. I never looked back, and I lived down south then 14, 15 years. You just got to a point of going, I can't live like this anymore. I can't. So you went to a new home? But then... But I got signed by Cannes Associates, and they were great. They really helped me. Okay. So I had to do drug tests all the time, and that encouraged me to go down south. I was like, I'll do whatever it takes to get me away from this man.

34:26Get me away from this life, because it was almost like an epiphany kind of thing. It was almost like that boot camp, not the affair, but the exercise and the other women around me at G.I.J. and Boot Camp and the woman Sharon who owns it. Yes. Just lifted you. The public image though, I would imagine by this time the press has just destroyed you. It had but then I, my management team were very clever. I've got to give them that and then I started charactering the next chapter. Okay. And we did a TV show called charactering coming clean. A 90 minute special.

35:13and that's when I had this hip molly and lily down and I made them watch the documentary with my camera crew filming us I was so ashamed and so embarrassed they'd never seen me cry at this point and the cocaine video was in there okay but there was at an age there was a private school but it was at an age that before this comes on the telly you need to watch this because people are going to like Molly came on and was like mum what's a coke head oh wow

35:49these are her friends at school saying this about you yeah yeah okay and when they watched it I had like big fat Tears of shame, dead quiet. And they went, when did all this happen, Mum? That was the biggest relief ever, Paul. They wasn't aware of any of this. Why should they be in this head to me? You should have told us we could have helped you. I went, it's not your job. That's my job. And that's why you never knew about any of it. Because I was the mum in my relationship. when I needed a mum, I'll be your mum. Yeah. How old were the kids at this point? Nine and ten. Nine and ten. And think of how profound that is.

36:39We could have helped you. Why don't you tell us? That's beautiful. Yeah, because they just saw me as this strong, independent woman who just cracks on with her life and nothing affects her. Why could I show them that? Why would I let them see that side of me? And I literally went, so basically you've been living a double life. like a spy. Yeah. How did you explain all of that to them? It just got to a point where I just started talking openly about everything, my childhood a lot. All my kids know everything, everything, because it's on the internet, Paul, and people tell them stuff, so I rather than hear it from me.

37:20Yes. Listen, I'll tell you the truth. I'll tell you the shit I've done. I'll tell you the dirt I've done. I rather than hear it from me, no matter how. how bad it is. Yeah. I would imagine that also creates a stronger relationship with your children. Massively. Yes. I've got a bond with my kids that is unbreakable. Yeah. Do you know, my Molly's 24 the end of month. She still comes home and puts her head on me knee and wants a mum. Yes. Yeah. Can we talk about motherhood just a bit because... Please do because it's my favourite thing in the world. Yeah, I... There was social service at the minute, Paul.

37:56See, this... But this is the joke, and I see that you write this on your captions all the time. I let my hook cage, and people really, because of my past, people actually think that that's what their lives were like, but it really wasn't. But were people at any point, or press at any point, saying, I was a social servant. Yeah, and your children should be taken away from you. Social services were called a few times. Were they? Really? No idea. and they'd come in the house everything everything was normal you know the kids would go over to Ireland I'd go on a binge I mean there's a story out today on one of the magazines today that's made up of me and Paulo together in a beefa because he's like you sure you don't want to sit down I'm like no my right honestly fine we've had a fight yeah apparently Yeah, I think it's this whole notion of you root people, you know, you clap and you applaud them on the way up.

38:56And because my life's been great now, I feel like there's going to become an attack. Yes. That's what I'm waiting for. Yeah, yeah, and I want to get to that. Paul's about to show you a presentation he made in Adobe Express, so you better be nice. You might not know this, but I am the proud co-owner of the mighty Sutton United Football Club. And this year, I had the honor of designing our Away Kit. First things first, Sutton Amber. Black, the crest, the fonts. Locked in with our sponsor, Adobe Express's brand kit. I was presenting to the board, and the story I wanted to tell was that we're modern.

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41:10Next relationship would be George. Yeah. All right. How do you enter a relationship with George K.? Oh, God, gone dead. Oh, just you saying his name out loud, that's really sent me west. Yeah. I will not say his full name again. um this is one where from our time on celebs when we unpack your history this is one part of the history that you see the condition of why i did what i did yes yes and and and we we we typically don't touch it so let's only talk about what you want to talk about here a whole body is just gone. When you think about just meeting him. I knew George since I was 14. Paul. You've known him.

42:07We used to call him Gorgeous George. And it was an on and off. Nothing ever happened until my 32nd birthday when I met him. Again. So he came back into your life. We always bumped into it. Like nothing ever gone. I never kissed him or anything as a kid. Okay. Oh, it makes me feel funny, this does. I think because he's dead as well. Yeah. Yeah. What then would you like to talk about? I'm happy to talk about it at all. You just got to give me a minute. Okay, you got a minute. Not a problem at all. Can I tell you something also, Carrie? You've done something no one else has ever done. You've used all the tissues.

42:52There are no more tissues left. I've burnt the candle out. I've used all the tissues. We've been here for 24 hours. We've had breakfast, lunch and dinner.

43:06I feel like we're just peeling back all these layers. And I'm learning about Carrie. Katone. I'm not what people actually think I am, to be fair. And these are preconceptions of who I am. Yes. Yes. And I've just made a lot of mistakes. but George, that's something I've really struggled to forgive myself for. Like, I'm digging my hand into my head because it, like, just... Yeah. I'm shaking already because I brought him into my kid's life. That's what he was saying. Okay. And once again, Bang's are great kids, just like Brian does and Mark does. Yes. And I got... They're the best... They're five best parts of me.

43:45Yes. Might not have been with the right partner, but I've got the right kids. Yes, yes. Yes, the perfect ones. So when I said his name, there was a reaction. Why do you believe you have that reaction with his name? I've never read it. I've never read it. I've never read it. Okay. Okay. He was 32 then. 32. What was happening in your life at 32? I was single. Okay. Already to mingle. R101 in Warrington. And I went outside for a cigarette. And then George walked. I went, are you sweetheart? And he felt gorgeous, George. Absolutely. Built like a brick shit house. Tattoos. He was gorgeous. I'm sure I don't have a type, Paul.

44:39It's true. You don't. I don't have, like, none of my boyfriend's look alike. Yes. I've had Irish, Nigerian. Yeah. Scottish. Yes. You know, you truly do not have a type. I agree with that. It's in that moment, that connection of, do you know what I mean? Anyway, George turned up, he's absolutely drop-down gorgeous. And he's this big fella. And he came and sat with me and my mum. And we had a picture taken together. I said, I've not seen you for years. Where have you been? He said, I've been on my holidays. I went anywhere nice. He meant he just got out of jail. Okay. That, for me, was a turn-on back then.

45:17I see. A bad boy. I didn't necessarily like a bad boy. I didn't, like, now when I look back at why I went with Mark Croft, I didn't realize it was to piss me mum off. I have never realized that before. But yet there's something about him that is interesting. What was that, do you think? He was a big softie. He was very charming. Very charming. Obviously dropped a guard. And he, the respect that went along with him. And again, if you look back to Dave Wheat and the way I was brought up with my mum's fella who was in prison with the Krays and the Freddy Krueger and the night, it was normal. Yeah.

45:57Someone like George, like me, when I dated Ryan, that wasn't normal. That wasn't my normal. And the worst thing is, I kind of knew what I was getting myself into. You could predict it. I knew it. I did know it. And I think I've lied so long, like going, You know, did you groom you? It is like being groomed. That's how I can explain it. And then you start seeing the real side of them. Carrie, I tell you, I want to tread carefully because this is the first time that I've seen your leg shaking. Oh, right. Okay. You know. Really? Yes. Okay. This is the first time. So this is one of those conversations or parts of the conversation where I'll just open the floor for you to say what you want to say.

46:48George was I remember I introduced him to Danielle and Sharon from boot camp and that's when I saw the different side of him because I always talk about being on a holiday with Danielle and he got really he went upstairs and I went you alright and he threw her it was like the Hulk he turned into the Hulk and he threw a phone at my head and Molly, first time Molly's ever heard anything like that in her life and it scared the shit out of her and I kicked him out the house and he went home to me mum's and me mum rang me Kerry is, oh god I think it's because he's dead as well

47:35I think it's when you said his name I wasn't expecting that kind of effect on me really because of fear and when eventually they'd die, Paul was so angry. So how dare you put me and my kids through everything you've put us through and just die. And now we're left.

47:59George was a very, very, very twisted soul. So many demons. I don't want to disgrace him any more than what he's done for himself and the things that I personally know that people don't know, which I was just about to do and I stopped myself. Does that make sense? That's fair. The first time he beat me up, I sat on Antony Costa's knee from Blue doing the big reunion. Antony's like my brother. You know, we were both on the same record label. We grew up together in the industry. And I went back to the hotel room and George was being my security for the atomic kit and I'm running around. You know, it gave him a bit of a job, a bit of a purpose.

48:40and he school-jacked me down the hotel room and they made me sleep in the bath. Oh, it was terrifying. And I had to get up and go and sing Hole Again on camera for the big reunion. I remember crying. The scenes there, you've got to Google it. I remember crying around the piano. The piano. And that's what you were crying? I was crying over the fact I was terrified and I made it out like, oh, it's such an emotional time for us all to be together because I think you're so ashamed and so embarrassed about what's really going on that you don't... You put on such a fake persona. Like I faked it all.

49:20I had that period of my life of the training, the exercising, the veil being lifted. I could see for the first time. This is great. So I took that step back and I don't know why I did it. Does that make sense? Yes, and it feels like you were now in this darker place than you had ever been. And you're probably asking yourself, how did I get here? And not with drugs. Yeah. Just with the abuse. Like George was spitting, spit in the face, which is so degrading. And he could get rough in different ways as well. And he would spit in my face. And then DJ started doing it. I thought, I can't. And then I remember Molly looked at me and said, pure disgust.

50:11You're so weak. You're so weak, Mum. And I just thought, I'm Susan. I'm my mum. Your mum, yes. I'm doing exactly what my mum did. And that was like an epiphany. And I'll never forget Paul this one time. We were supposed to go on into Big Brother. Okay. On the civilian one, as a celebrity guest, he and two other celebrities, and I signed the contract. And I think it was on, like, sorry for a couple of grand or something, but that was the council tax. George didn't work. Everything's always been me. And he said, I'll never forget him saying, oh, you're going off on your holidays, getting pissed on, Tally, are you?

50:56And he said, who's looking after the kids? And I went, well, they're your kids, George. leave those kids and watch what happens leave those kids with me and watch what happens and he was terrible to my son he was terrible to Max I found out things afterwards that I didn't even know that my son told me when we sat in the bed yeah yeah

51:25you know

51:30I see why his name caused this reaction. I also see why his death still lingers because what it sounds like or what I read is that he died shortly thereafter. And so he presented in a very evil way all the way through his death. On this note, talking about abusive relationships, there is one woman who is killed by an abusive partner or an ex every five days in England and Wales. In 2023, the police in the UK recorded a domestic abuse incident every 40 seconds. And I think that what is often not talked about is how, and you just mentioned this with George, is that how he would be abusive, but then he would spin it around and be incredibly charming.

52:39I would get on my hands and knees apologising for him hitting me because he told me I was like a red flag to a bull. I thought it was because he loves me so much. So how were you able to leave him? We just moved into this beautiful, gated, only nine houses, Mine was the nicest, obviously. And the woman over the road, she was a police officer. Okay. Anyway, I've gone home. I'm cooking the food. And the house phone rings and DJ's running around. Only two. And the house phone rings. And I went, hello. And he went, hiya, it's the Sussex Police. George is upstairs. I just knew straight away that he was going to go.

53:29I said, yeah, can I help? Yeah. He goes, he just rang this number. I went, no. I said, no, unless, my voice started shaking. I went, unless my daughter, my little girl's done it. No, everything's fine. I hung up and my whole body was shaking. I thought, oh, here we go. Yes. Here we go. And then the phone rings again. the house phone. Hello? I feel sick, Paul. And he goes, you rang us again. I said, honestly, I said I'm really not. And George was on the phone upstairs. He said, I did. Me wife's trying to kill me. Here we go. He was having a psychotic break. Yes. Yeah. So he was having his intrusive thoughts.

54:25It was a psychosis. Yeah. And he has a bit of schizophrenia as well. And I went in the utility room. To hide. To hide. And then I rang the police officer over at Road. I said, just come round and come and get the kids, please. Because he'd have, like, he'd see things that wasn't there. Yes. And then when we invited the police officer and the police officer boy from Roundford dinner one night, he told me he wrote a note and put it in their pocket saying I know what you're up to. And eventually the police turned up and I'd been holding on to all this for years now, Paul. No one knew anything. And that's when I broke.

55:11And when the police officer came in, I just it was like verbal diarrhea of everything that he'd ever done. Everything. I couldn't stop. So that night did they remove him from the house? that night? Because it was George's name, there was a red flag. So if his name would come up on their system, they'd have to bring back up. Like, George was built like a brick shithouse. He was six foot four. Do you know what I mean? He was, um, wasn't, he wasn't going to get him down easy. Okay. So that's why 22 police officers came. So they removed him. and then once they removed him, I'm assuming you still didn't feel safe?

55:55No. So then what happens next in your relationship with him? I ended up taking him back, just because I felt safer knowing where he was than when he wasn't with me. Like I had this, like I had a restraining order and the statistics say that we only go so far when we start telling the truth with the protection officer, the women who come and protect you and you have an alarm and all that. And then they kind of get their way back in. You end up dropping everything and dropping all the charges. And do you know what I mean, Paul? I see it. You know. Oh, God, I feel sick.

56:42So despite him being removed successfully. Yep. You then allow him back in? Yeah. Okay. So hard, Paul, when you've got kids. Yes. You know. Yes, because you wanted to work for them. Not just for them, I just didn't want another broken marriage again. I tried really hard. I thought of everything I could possibly think of to try and make this work. For DJ, I remember he came to see you on Christmas Day and he was crying. I felt so bad for him. Because you and George were married. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a widow. He never got, he won't divorce me. Oh, he didn't divorce you? No, they always say divorce away.

57:22Me and George never got divorced. He refused. Okay, okay. How did George pass away? Drug overdose. Accidental.

57:34Alone.

57:39What did you feel and think the moment that you heard he had passed away?

57:48Because he goes angry more than anything. I just thought, am I going to tell a DJ?

57:57You know, having a conversation like that with your little year. Five year olds, not the... You know. I wasn't surprised. I knew, I got the phone call and it said Jim Kay, who was his stepdad. and I didn't say anything, didn't tell him. My whole body started shaking straight away, just put it back in my bag and the restraining order had been up for four months at this point so there was nothing stopping him from coming to me house. So I rank home because our mother was at home and the girl, everyone was at home. I went, Lily, just lock all the doors. She went, what do I say? Just lock all the doors, please.

58:39I went, I'm on my way home and I just looked. That was my first thought, panicked. And then Ryan was like, oh, he's probably just off his head. And I went, he's dead. When you watch me, I said, they're calling me to tell me he's dead. And then me manager called. He went, where are you, love? I went, are you calling me to tell me George is dead? He went, I am his gun. I just knew it.

59:07And I went down to the chapel at rest the very next day. I didn't get the funeral I don't even know where he's buried Paul

59:18And I screamed at him He must have thought I was a lunatic And he was there with a little smile on his face He had all blood round his nose Dry blood And I screamed I fell on the floor So how can you leave that little girl Why could you not try hard enough Girl

59:41your and i don't want to say simply you're allowing of it because yes it's a two-way street a relationship is a two-way that's why i struggle because i'll hold my hands up because i did allow it paul yeah so there's definitely i that's why i i feel that guilt on my kids because it's something i never that was my aim not to have my kids go through what i went through right So, yes, there is responsibility. Absolutely. And I would hold it on. I'll take it. But you have also, and where you need to give yourself grace is you've also been accountable in that responsibility today. Right? And that's something that you have to give yourself.

1:00:24That's the only way I was able to move on from it, really, is owning it with all my mistakes. Yes. Women in the industry get treated different when the men fuck up. You know, like if Piers Morgan was doing an interview with Rod Stewart and say, and I love Rod. We know we love Rod. Yes, I do too. And Rod was like, you know, we was all doing coke and having arches. Piers would be sat there pissing himself laughing. If I sat there and said I was doing coke and having arches, do you know what I mean? I agree with you. There's a complete double standard. Massive double standards. What needs to be done today, do you believe?

1:01:05to help to reconcile that?

1:01:10Well, the industry's always been a man's world, hasn't it? Let's be honest. You know, unfortunately, the world has. Yeah. You know, there's a clear patriarchy that we still live in. And it's not until me getting older that I realize how different the world is for a woman versus a man. Yeah. Right? Especially when you're doing it on your own. Yes. So what are, what are, I guess this is the question is, what are ways that you believe men could be better allies to women? I think it's education. I think it's educating yourself and that you might be a man and I might be a woman. You cut you, you're going to bleed.

1:01:51You cut me, I'm going to bleed. Where's the different standards in that? And if it wasn't for a woman, a man wouldn't be here because we gave birth to you. We're the ones who carried you. I think we need a little bit more credit than what we get. And we're human. We make mistakes. And I think the way I was treated, the way Caroline was treated, the way Kate has been treated, the way a lot of us have been treated, because we're women, more so because we're mothers. Oh, wow. Interesting. So this is Katie Price. Me, Eureka. Eureka Johnson. We've all had it. But then you get like Boris Johnson having 20-odd kids.

1:02:40Yay, he's had another kid by 26 different women. I brought the kids up. I put them to bed. I went to the school plays. I did the sports days. But we get slated. So during this time, and you mentioned when you got that call, you were with Ryan. Yeah. Okay. Are we getting there now? Are we coming to the end? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. We are coming to the end. But hold on. You know, you were only 30 years old at this point.

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1:04:40You met Ryan while you were separated. Yeah. From George. And you met him on a dating app. Yeah. Okay. So you're on a date, yeah? Yeah, and everyone knew I was on it. All right. It was Danielle Brown. She made me go on it because she was like, you need to get out. Go on out and go on a few dates and have a few meals. And I thought, oh, she's got a point. And we set it up, like, together. Okay. The first one I went on a date with was Ryan. Really? Yeah. The first one? I actually interviewed him. Did you? Yeah, and Ryan was really mundane. This is not me putting Ryan down. It was a real, real slow burner for me, Ryan.

1:05:18Okay. But it was just, and that's when we met. Yes, yes. Your favorite member in the world. So that was it. I can't forget it. Yeah. So we met probably 2019, I think. And this is when you were on Celebs Go Dating. Not the most current time, but previous. Right? So this is like serious. I like a serial Celebs Go Dating. No, that would be Pete Wicks. You said it one more time than me. Yeah, you were seeing Ryan, you broke up with him, and on the show, you were not able to connect with anyone on the show. And I would imagine that Ryan was playing out of his mind. There was one guy I connected with, and he was lovely, and he bought me the secret book.

1:05:59His name was Steve. Oh, yes, yes! And yes, I do remember. He was lovely, he was gorgeous as well. Yes, I do remember. But I just, I think, I think, like, when I got engaged to Ryan, I had, I just thought, I could never imagine myself walking down an aisle ever again. I think George did such a number on me. That you just didn't. That I was just like, we was engaged five years. There was no way there was ever going to be a wedding. You know? Yeah. We were together nearly seven years, me and Ryan. I mean, this is a big period, I think, in your life, too, because you're also... I'm grateful to Ryan.

1:06:38Yeah, yeah. It gave me stability. Did you feel like it was a secure relationship for you? I think it was because it was so opposite to what I went through with George. It felt... And I love company. I've got so much love to give Paul. And it just... It was just nice to have someone there, I guess. Okay. And it was just nice and easy. Okay. All right. But I'm saying that there was a lot of problems in the relationship for the last four years. Well, we went into that on the show, didn't we? We did. We did. But what also seems is that, because you went into business with one. Okay. That's where things change.

1:07:22Okay. So how so? Well, I was literally about to go into my third bankruptcy because we like to do trilogies. don't we with me because everything goes on for so long yes and this is the beginning of the third episode

1:07:42I've been bankrupt twice at this point Paul okay and so the first time I went into bankruptcy I didn't even know what bankruptcy was Paul I had no idea what that was I think I had a tax bill for 84 grand okay which was pennies to me we spoke before about how much money I used to earn multi multi-millionaire that could have been a shoot of one photo shoot and Max Clifford ran me up and he said Kerry you got into bankruptcy I said what's bankruptcy mean and when I went back when I told you about the blank checks that Mark was signing and it turned out that my accountant I got arrested did you? yeah because my accountant David McHugh was a con man and he was siphoning my money and every time he'd send me a stamp saying, this has been paid, this has been paid, none of it had been paid.

1:08:37There was nothing in the bank, it had all gone. And everyone thought, oh, she sniffed it away. Tell you what, Paul, I could put as much coal cut my nose because I could afford it. So what were you arrested for? I turned into a bit of a ninja and went round his office because I knew it was him. I knew in my soul it was him and I kicked his door down. I don't know, I grabbed his tie and, yeah. It was so, I don't want to say too much, you can just get arrested again. Okay, fair. But I ended up, it was for assault, yeah. And I physically, like, punched him in the face and got, and I got put in the cells for 14 hours with my shoelaces taken off, Matt.

1:09:16Yeah. That was the second time I was arrested for something different. And I kept thinking, this can't be happening. I'm being arrested and I said to the police please raid him please I'm telling you now and they eventually did and you know when you you have like the squares in the ceiling they went up and they found a box I've still got it somewhere Brian's put it somewhere that had all like TSB Lloyd's Barclays all these companies house names, character entertainment, KK Limited cleaning, nothing to do with me. All forged. All these paychecks, all these checking books, checks. And he got arrested.

1:10:11He actually went down for about five years. Not just for doing it to me, but he did it to loads of people. But I was like the only well-known person. When you think about how much money, when you think about it all, how much money do you believe was stolen from you oh loads i mean i would i used to give money away like it was sweets anyway but i was paying people to love me really like i did with my mom yeah yeah so that was so see money never it took me a long time to realize like looking back on it now like me going into bankruptcy bankruptcy was probably the best thing that ever happened to me because all those tangers on just they all go they all disappear so when you go into bankruptcy you're basically wiping your debts clean but you know you've got to pay to go into bankruptcy okay you got to go to court and pay him then you're still out to work and you're only allowed to earn like you've got to go over your mortgage and you know my kids in private you have to go through everything okay and in the end they took my houses off me and god my mom never forgave me for that goodness gracious so at this time the third bankruptcy i didn't go no no no no no there's no i thought you said three nearly nearly nearly but ryan stopped that so ryan stopped it ryan stopped that it was the first lockdown and i had this 50s jukebox that brian mcfagin bought me as a wedding present that i had on my rhoda stewart in it with country and western and my doctor huck and army royal obviously you know that that's the only thing i walked away from and obviously my two kids that i took away physically from that from the house i designed and my everything that i walked away with that and i had to sell i had a photo shoot set up with the sun it was a naked photo shoot classic like you know just holding yourself but everything got cancelled and i think because of covid yeah yeah i think my rent was like 1900 pound and i couldn't afford to pay me rent I asked to sell the jukebox and then someone mentioned OnlyFans to me and then started telling me about how much people are making on it I remember when a pack got a picture of me tops on a beach and it went for 75 grand 75 ,000?

1:12:25Yeah I was like I had a pint and a burger it had nothing to do with me and that's when I started doing my own pack pictures Right So I want to get in on this because I don't think that's right and you hide in a bush so I'll do it myself I've got no shame in that. I don't care. Sure. I really don't. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. The picture that's on the cover of it magazine this week, me and Paolo, I set that up. Yeah. But whatever they write is completely down. It's nothing to do with me. But the photos, you wanted to take control. Because if I go away, like I go away on Saturday, I'm not going to say where I'm going, and if I go away and they find out I'm there, it's ridiculous.

1:13:03So I'd rather just bang out a load of bikini pics, pitch with the kids and then they can all leave me alone. Right. So OnlyFans was your way to monetize this even more, right? Well, again, let's go back to page three modeling. I've literally just gone back to doing, I used to do Nuts and Zoo and FHN. They're all I call, like, really glamour magazines from back in the day because, you know, you're American. And... Thanks for reminding me. Just giving me a bit of content. Thank you. And I just started putting up sexy, topless pics. So how successful was OnlyFans for you in the first month? I made about 175 grand.

1:13:47First month? I've made millions. I've made millions on it. And I'll continue to do it because it's just too much money to turn down. So first month, though, right? Because I would imagine you didn't think, you didn't envision. I just paid all my debts off, Paul. Really, in the first month? First month, I just paid tax, everything. Dun, dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. And you thought, wow, this is now. And then that's when Ryan, because Ryan worked in accounting and insurance at the time. He had a desk job. Absolutely fine. And because he was like, look, why don't we do it as a bit? And he taught me so much, but I don't like listening.

1:14:26I'm like, no, you just deal with it. I don't want to know. I think I've got so much, maybe PTSD from what happened with the bankruptcy. Because then I did Big Brother. And I got 365, 365 doing Big Brother. Okay. Not bad. 365 ,000. Yeah. Yes. But I paid my first bankruptcy off. Now, you tell me how this works. My first bankruptcy was for£84 ,000. I end up paying nearly half a million pound back. because these trustees every time they send you a bastard letter yes a grand for them to send me a letter ryan so you are in a romantic relationship but then you enter a business relationship at the same time and you feel like that's where things change yeah so so how did it change and then how did the relationship end i wasn't ryan wasn't emotionally available he wasn't emotionally intelligent.

1:15:22I mean, he wasn't a bad person at all, Ryan. It was just... I didn't realise how starved I was from love and affection until I did the shit. Okay. Which we spoke about. I didn't... Even conversing, even a conversation, I never knew what was going on in his head. Alright, well then, let's get to the man of the hour then. Fucking hell. We're there. Are we at the end, Paul? We are there. Yeah, don't judge You know what? We are, let's say We are there Carrie, we are there We are there, we're about to do this No, no, not yet, not yet, not yet We're going to get to the man of the hour right now This has been long So You get this chance to come on to a little show Cause celebs go dating Let me guess you're on it What aren't you on?

1:16:19Fucking hell So, you say yes for what reasons? The paycheck. The paycheck. It's a job for me, Paul. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not, I won't lie. For me, it was like, oh, it's a great paycheck. Get to see Paul and Anna again. We can catch up, get some therapy and exposure. Because that's what we all do. This is what we all do. This is our jobs, Paul. I'm not ashamed to admit that. Yes. You know, I'm not going to, you know, I went on there because I really wanted to find out. Did I? I was not interested. Did you think it was possible to find love on Celebs Go Data? Absolutely fucking not. I thought they were all a load of jokes.

1:16:59Paula wasn't interested. You know this. Yes, yes. Am I going red? You are going red. You are going red. So you come on to the show. We're appreciative of this, right? You want to spend some time with myself and Anna, which we love. I just thought, you know, you've got an opportunity to work with the experts and you're working so hard on yourself, why wouldn't you take that opportunity? Self-improvement. And get paid for it. Yes, and get paid, so you get that. And you're right, you get exposure. Because it's my job. Yes, so this is good. It's what us D-listers do, Paul. Oh, come on, don't do this.

1:17:31And it will help with OnlyFans as well. Absolutely. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yeah. Discount rates on the win. I told you this book he's sending me after it, sold my OnlyFans pictures. I told him not to show anybody these pics. All right. So you land on the show. Yeah. Okay. Now, day one, day two, day three, day four. First few weeks, you're thinking, hey. You're a load of shite. Honestly, I thought I was on the Undateables at one point. I thought I was on the wrong show. All right. I'm not even going to lie. I thought experts may are. Yes. And then there was one consultation that I happened to be in where.

1:18:13Yes. What do you mean? Yeah. We had debriefed a date. you were queuing up your next date. This was when I realized that it was okay to want to be in a relationship. This is when I realized I wasn't in my... I thought, I'm the queen of my castle. I don't need anybody. That was that. Okay. And that's when you brought Paolo up, wasn't it? You brought Paolo up. So Paolo hits the screen. Oh, my God. Babe, I am so sorry when you watch this back. So he hits the screen. Now, because we know Slubs Go Dating is edited, and I was there so I know everything you said, Kerry. Everything that you said. How are you doing here?

1:18:50Oh, oh my God, I'm dreading. So he hits the screen and then, Kerry, what do you say? Truly, honestly. You're having a fucking laugh. It looks like Rin Tin Tin. That's fake, that's fake, that's fake. Oh, it's a Virgo. Paul goes, Kerry, Kerry, look at the height. Look at the height. I wasn't really arsed. So Paolo was someone who, you don't have a type, but... I won't look at him twice in a bar. Right. So you thought this was going to be, this date would be a bust. I actually wore my trainers just to set the piss. All right. Even though I'm five foot two and a fat. It wasn't because it was him. Yes.

1:19:32It was anybody, Paul. What changed your mind? When I met Paolo. But what about him? I found him really insightful. It was the way he spoke. and he sounded like he really had his shit together. And I thought, I was, I actually afterwards, when you go out, I don't want, oh, it's up and out. Yeah, exactly. I can't say what I want. Exactly. It's been out. I have a boyfriend.

1:19:58I actually, I was, I was just really, it was just a really, not an intelligent conversation. It was just, it just flowed really well. and it was, I just found it really insightful. You could tell like he'd been, I don't want to tell too much of anyone else's story, but, you know, he'd worked on himself. Yes. I related to that. Yes. And I found him really, I wouldn't have thought he was 33. Which is also something. So Paolo is 11 years younger than you. Mm-hmm. Okay. I remember when you came back into the agency, we had a conversation around this. You need an older man who's got his own money. Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

1:20:47You'll be with somebody older. No, no. Yes, yes, you were putting on her. Do not put that on us. Yes. Because we were Paolo. He's got the wrong money. Carrie, we were Paolo fans. Now, we did bring up age difference. Yeah. And age difference is definitely something that plays out in relationships. Yeah. So were you at all concerned? Okay, you were. So no, every now and then it gets in the back of my head. Yeah. Yeah. What in particular gets in the back of your head? That I'm a lot older. And you start fast-forwarding? A little bit, yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking, God, in five years, you know, I'm going to be the same age as his step-mom.

1:21:29You know, that's fucked up in my head. But then you look at men with younger women and no one, no one... That's an island either. But it does play in my mind a little bit. Yes. I'm not going to lie. Yes. But then when I'm with him, you don't even notice because the energy matches. And that's what it is. I've never had a connection like this in my life. Ever. With anybody, Paul. Ever, ever, ever. Ever. And at what moment. I'm not scared to say that. At what moment through the Celebs Go Dating journey did you realize this is real? this is a real relationship unfortunately we spent a lot of time off camera let's let's talk about that yeah what about that time it was my kids it was it was my i mean it started off with paulo texting me to make sure i got home safe calling me an air stewardess because i thought i looked like one i was like the way i was dressed i was like and exits this way and you know i'm piss out myself.

1:22:31And I thought that was funny. And then, because I look at all my messages, I try and respond back to as many people as I can. And then I went on his page, and it was the way he was as a dad that was really, really appealing. He was a great dad. Okay. Every day we spoke. Like, mine was just, like, little one-liner replies. Yes. At first. Kept it, and then it was really poorly. And he said, can I send you something? Do I really give this dude my address? I was like, ooh. do I but I'm just open when my kids like mum do it you know we had our second date on the show okay and then after that second date I went home back to my hotel because I had a hidey with me okay yes this is it when I had yeah I had the polka dot outfit on and then I got changed for the second date and a black outfit yes and we've been voice noting and talking non-stop and I hidey at all the voice notes because I tell my kids everything they're the best this mate's like she's 18 now, I hide her.

1:23:32So what? And everyone's like, it's really nice. So Sophia said she'll have gone for a drink with him. She goes, why don't you? So I've got you here. She went, Mum, stop. Stop it. Stop using us as an excuse. Yes. She went, go look in that mirror. She goes, you look like a badass boss bitch. You're not going to look like this again. You're both in London. Text him quick before he goes home and say, meet me at the bar for an hour. Because he sounds like a sound guy. I sat there going, do I really? And I'm going, what do I put? And we're both laughing. And she's actually got me on video texting saying, and he turned the ebb around and he came for a chat at the hotel.

1:24:10It was a couple of hours. And that's when we kissed. And that's where you kiss. And can I say this is, at that moment, though, in your gut, did you feel like this is real? Not at that first moment, no. No. So at what point? I don't know. I just really, he has an aura. and energy, he's got a really beautiful soul, really inviting you, that you just want to be around and you think, oh God, he's actually really nice and I just kind of and then he wanted to come round the house and I was like, oh I don't know, and I was like, literally, I was literally like this, and we suffer so he couldn't touch me or come anywhere near me and it was our DJ and I was like, oh God, what do I do, girls?

1:24:52What do I do? But they wanted to eat it. Well, they heard the voice notes, they saw his page and they were, they was intrigued and they heard him talking and, and, uh, yeah, it was, it was the kids who really pushed, pushed me on it. So there was a, uh, brunch. We do these brunch scenes. Which film? Oh my gosh. There was one, well. I got emotional. Yes. But it was in that moment. That was the first moment where I saw the two of you and I thought, okay. Really? There could be something. Yeah. Here. And it's always in the way that for me, it's how someone looks at you. So what I've noticed when Celebs Go Dating and some of the other projects that I do is this kind of lack of eye contact and distraction, especially when you stop filming.

1:25:41Yeah. When the camera's on, a lot of these folks are very good at their acting. So they know how to lock in. They know how to position their body in a certain way. But when the camera's off, you can see how they just turn away. They create a distance. but this guy pal i was like he's locked in on carrie the entire time it was like he didn't even realize that there were there was any filming going on i was very aware it appeared as if he was just seeing you and him and no one else in the room i think that's what i noticed i think it's the first time we actually felt like i think he's just taught and being he's so transparent he's very puts your cards on the table and i like that and just just talk about uncomfortable conversations as well but that i think that's a real good key to a great foundation of the start of a relationship really especially me being who i am and we've both discussed that we know what's going to happen next with the papers they're going to try and do yes that that that's I mean, let's talk about that now because now we can get into what is happening right now.

1:26:53So, you know, I distinctly remember having a conversation with Paolo at the finale about what I believed was going to happen next and how I thought there would be an attempt to take down your relationship. Oh, it started. So it's already started. Oh, it's already started. And I think for me that bothers me as well. Okay. Because when you step into my world, it's weird. It just bothers me. It's weird because I want to protect him and his children. And it's a lot. And I feel embarrassed a little bit. I feel a bit of a burden because I've not actually done anything. I've not done it because of my name and who I am.

1:27:46and it's a lot to take in, Paul. Yes. Everyone's got an opinion. Yes. And bear in mind, I've always kept my relationships quiet until I'm ready. But obviously doing what we've done with the show, I'm having to ride and go along with these feelings with everybody watching, especially on the show, which I found really uncomfortable. Yes. I found that really like, oh my God, because I don't, people just see Kerry and then, and then, you know, he got me down to a bit of a vulnerable state yeah yes my concern if you will is actually not the two of you because i think when the two of you are together exactly what was his reaction when you saw that the first story come out on him because i've seen a few already of stories that even seem to be i would assume misrepresentations of things that are happening Yeah.

1:28:39You know, like, what's the one right? The one right now is we're in a briefing. We've had the great iPad pictures. Yes. And whoever put with it, he's holding me hand, and I've just had my boobs done, and I wasn't feeling very well, Paul. And he's got my hand and goes, are you sure you want to do this now? Let's go. No, it's fine. Let's just bang it out. We'll do it now quick. It's fine. That was the conversation. So you want to do this photo? Yeah. He's like, are you sure you're well enough to do this? Because you can see I've got a bandage on him. And I'm going, yeah, let's knock it out. It'll be absolutely fine.

1:29:13And they had some body language expert come in and say, we had the best time. And that was before he moved in. And I thought, I'm not letting this guy go. Yeah. But the expert's saying that you two are arguing or, like, fight. It's a fight, right? Because of the picture, because I'm like that. Right. I'm like, no, let's just bring it out. We'll be fine. Right. So this is the... And I approved all these pictures. You proved the pictures, but not that. No, I have nothing to do. Like, I'll get the picture. Yeah, that one's fine. That one's fine. That one's fine. That one's fine. That's fine. That's fine.

1:29:47And then whatever they put in, it's no do with me. Yeah. So now you two are moved in together. I'm madly in love. You're madly in love. Head over heels. Family. You've blended family now. Yeah. Okay. Do you believe Carrie Katona will walk down the aisle? Oh, fucking hell. Will we have a wedding? At Iceland, that aisle. Check out Tuba, a bit of spill. Wouldn't that be epic if you got married in Iceland? No. You don't think so? He's all fucking class. But seriously. I would marry Paolo in a heartbeat and a pop-up triplets for him. That's how I feel about him. Okay. Honestly, I was, Paul, you know how dumb I was.

1:30:38Yes. Yes. And even if this was to end tomorrow and it was all bullshit on his part, I will never forget the way he made me feel. Which is how? Amazing. Dead happy. Yes. Yeah. I can't say it that way, even if it was all bullshit and it was all lies and it was just a, wow. I mean, obviously we're devastated, but the way I feel right now, I've never had that with anybody, ever. Yes. How would you describe that for someone who, you know, you've been in committed relationships your entire life in search of love? I've never slept around, Paul. I wish I did. It was never my thing, really. You know, I just, I don't know.

1:31:27I think I just, if I like somebody, the energy's good. But the thing is, I'm in a different place in my life. And when I look back on my relationships, and I look, like, when I look back at Brian, and I think that's why that happened, that's why. But this was so unexpected. We're like, I'm getting a bit of a jelly belly in my stomach. This is like, nah, it can't be happening there. So yeah, expect the unexpected. Last question on celebs is, what also surprised you about that experience with celebs? You guys, you guys are very good at what you do. Can we just cut, can we edit that?

1:32:14I guess he's not big enough. I think it was the day when, on the date with Paolo, when you showed me his picture, we had a bit of a deep dive, didn't we? We did, that same day. That day, and I ended up crying. Yes. And that's when I realized, because I was a bit of an ice queen, wasn't I really? Let's be honest. I didn't give anybody the time of day. True. I made it very, very, very clear from that first mixer. I was not. You were not. I mean, I walked down to Nepal. Yes. I went, listen, guys, I'm not going to bullshit you. I'm not interested in anybody. Yes. This is a good off-camera moment that people need to know.

1:32:51Yeah. And then I think this also shows your integrity. Yeah. is at the first mixer so open and honest off camera you tell everyone that could be going with you to Ibiza you're like look I'm not interested in any of you I don't think yeah I mean I I mean this is coming out after the show so I don't know how it's been how it all looks yeah trust me that was not in there did they not put it in no no I'm almost I'm willing to bet money they were not oh you're joking why would you want to show you saying I'm not interested in any of you I don't know Well, you were there. I was there. I saw it. But I made it clear.

1:33:27Yes. There was no getting through that ice wall. Yes. Till McBallow. Look at that. All right. Carrie, we have set a record for the longest interview, not just on We Need to Talk, but in the world.

1:33:45This is literally the Guinness Book of Records for longest interview in the world. Truly. Truly. You asked me, come on. You're the one asking bloody questions. So I'm scared to ask this question, but my question is this, is there anything we have not talked about that you believe is important for us to include in this conversation?

1:34:15I wish society would stop being so judgmental, not just on me, but on each other. and if anyone can take anything away from this, it's a bit of hope. And, you know, you don't know what the person next to you is going through, so don't be so quick to judge somebody. Yes. That's it. You know, as... If I can get through what I've got through, that's why I do this, Paul. I want... And I don't want, because I'm 44, she'll give up on love. No. God loves a trier. You know, don't judge people, you know. If someone's doing well for themselves, praise them. Lift them up. Yes. Don't be so quick to bring people down and relish in that.

1:34:55Yes. Well said. Just be. Well said. It's nice to see other people doing well. Yes. Yes. So then, even for Carrie, the celebrity, what's the next chapter for you? I'll go on tour with Katie, don't I? Yes. Me and Katie go on tour. 38-day tour. I know. Yes. It's a long one. It's a long one. It's a long one. But you're going on tour. We're going on tour. And that, again, is all about hope, inspiration, resilience, mental health. You know, I'm in awe of Kate. She could have so easily given up. I get it. We keep fighting. We're still going. Yes. And that's what this is about for me. It's straightening each other's crown and then lifting each other up.

1:35:38Then I go into Panto and then I go on tour with Mamma Mia West End. We go on tour. Ah. Yeah. That's big. That's a huge one. That's big. Huge. I'm so excited about that. Look at that. You are booked, busy and blessed. I am. Yes. As my kids set the piss out of me. All right. So then I think we're down to the last question then. First, everybody. Last question.

1:36:07I cannot believe you're... This is it. It's not bad. The time is almost six o 'clock. It's not. It's almost six. It's a lying part. It is ten minutes to six. we started this interview at 9 30 a.m this is ridiculous this is the longest interview ever so i'll put this this shows you down to this is it okay so carrie you have had some amazing conversations throughout your life but if you could pinpoint one which one was the most influential in your life that you learned the most from what did you learn in it and who was it with? It was with a therapist and it was Big Kerry going to Little Kerry where she was lonely, had nobody and telling Little Kerry about this amazing life that she's going to live and these amazing kids that she's going to have and it's not going to be easy but you're going to become a pop star you're going to travel the world you're going to feel lonely but I got you, me, big Kerry.

1:37:18That really changed my perspective and I picked a little Kerry up and put her in here and that for me was like deep and that to look at things that I've been through and be so grateful, so grateful for it all. I really am. Even the fear, I'm grateful to all of it. I believe it, I believe it. I will say this in my closing to you, Carrie, is you could be one of the few people I've met in life who is so well known yet treats every single person they meet with respect. I've noticed this about you, and this is what I most adore about you, is that you treat someone, regardless of class, regardless of race or ethnicity, regardless of social position, regardless of if you're the executive producer or the runner, you treat everyone with the same level of respect.

1:38:29And when I first met you, I didn't know if that was an act. But now that I've known you for many years, I see that this is you. And I think that is a superpower. And that's something that everyone should know about you, is that you were highly respectful to everyone. You're kind to everyone. You're joyful to everyone. Right? I think you were beautiful. Oh, that was so good, Paul. Well, I was going to say that you talk quite a bit. You're having a laugh. You talk quite... No, no. But truly, you do. And that's something that I think society... Misses. Yes, society can take. I think social media has a lot to do with that as well.

1:39:15I think... I'm just grateful to be here, Paul. Again, like I said, I woke up this morning. Yes. I woke up. I woke up. There you go. I got to live another day. So many of us haven't. You know what I say to myself often is, is I woke up in a home with people who love me. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Like, I got my gang. That's my gang. Yes. You know, and again, I'm really grateful. Oh, okay. Yes. Even the bad. Yep. Carrie, thank you. This has been epic. Paul, fuck off. I'm done. I'm going off. I'm only joking. Actually, that's how it should end. We're all going home.

1:40:12I don't need to talk to Carrie again for the rest of my life. That's how much we talked. She had already reached beyond her greatest dream at 20 years old. So it makes sense to me why she would just remove herself from the band. There are so many moments in Carrie's entire career, but specifically in Atomic Kitten, where she had to go on stage and perform while having a traumatic experience going on in her personal life. And I always say that when you're talking about performing, you know, especially on television, people say, oh, you know, it's easy. She just gets on stage. She might not even be singing.

1:40:54She just loves singing. But to be able to get on stage and block out the trauma that is happening in your life and show up consistently in a way that the audience wants to receive you, that is talent. And Carrie is undoubtedly talented. And every successive story gave you another, this new jolt of emotion. So you couldn't even stay in the old emotion. It was just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. We've had many phenomenal guests. Almost every guest prior to Carrie has held back in an area or two for a variety of reasons, trying to protect a loved one, trying to protect their own sanity, maybe trying to protect a story that they want to put in an upcoming book.

1:41:52There are a variety of reasons why people are not fully disclosing, and we respect that. Kerry was wide open. I feel like when I'm interviewing someone, typically you're on a topic and there's a clear-cut next step or a clear-cut next route that you take. Sometimes, if it's really good, there could be maybe two options or even three. With every dialogue with Carrie, there were 10 options you could take. And you want to take them all. Yeah. It's like choose your own adventure. Which path do you want to go down? We have to realize that it's our responsibility to break the cycles of trauma in our families.

1:42:39And the beauty is that Carrie now can reflect. She can see that. You know, everyone says heal your inner child, right? This is something that a lot of therapists talk about. And the reason why it's so important for anyone who says, I don't want to think about these moments again in my life. What's the value of it? We just saw it with Carrie. Carrie's 44. She just had this conversation with us. She now has had an epiphany for the first time in her life. Just having that knowledge gives yourself grace. It gives yourself the ability to say, you know what, I'm okay. Like, I'm a human. It's acceptable to think these things.

1:43:24But then more importantly, now that I know that, how could I use that going forward to maybe repair the relationship with my mother, to maybe understand that this is going to be a trigger for me, to know that I shouldn't show up this way with other people? There's so much value in going back, reflecting, and Carrie was able to heal that inner child just a little bit. So having these conversations is so incredibly important. Carrie truly is an entirely different person from when I first met her. So I first met Carrie in, it was late 2018, early 2019. You fast forward to today, Carrie's on Celebsco Dating is, Not only was she well adjusted from removing herself from that relationship, detaching herself emotionally, but she's done a substantial amount of work on self-worth and self-esteem.

1:44:20And she showed up as an entirely different person. But what was so fascinating is even though she showed up as a different person, she thought that she would not find love at all. And this is why I always say, when we have done the work, love shows up in unexpected packages at unexpected times. And that's precisely what happened to Carrie and Paolo.