Little Mix's Perrie Edwards: I’ve Never Spoken About THIS Before! And Why I Hated My Public Breakup

36:31Okay. Yeah. And that was an important twelve because you were literally becoming a woman. Yes. During that time. So how do you think being in this super group shaped you as a woman? Oh, massively. I feel like because I was the youngest as well, I looked up to them so much. and I learned so much from them. I feel like growing up in the public eye isn't easy, but when you have three other girls who are going through it, it kind of takes the load off a little bit. But I always say, like, it sounds crazy, but me and the girls were so in each other's pockets and so in sync that it was, like, next level in sync.

37:13So, like, if one of us went through heartbreak, we all felt it. If one of us lost a family member, we were all heartbroken. If one of us was like winning in life, we were all winning in life. Like we were literally, we felt every emotion like in sync. It was so bizarre. Like not just like, oh, babe, I'm here for you. It was like we were all heartbroken because we just felt it. We didn't want to see one of us that down and that sad. We all just kind of took it on as well. So I think our connection was huge. And I'm so grateful because when we were put in the group, it was like, go bands clash. you'll argue you won't get along it'll be really competitive and there was moments where it was like babe can you stop pissing me off but other than that we just adored each other like we had each other's backs we didn't argue and even though people wanted to make that the headline every five seconds of our career right we didn't we just knew exactly what we wanted we had each other we all had one vision and one goal and we knew what we wanted to do and we were always the underdogs like from the very beginning it was like you won't do very well girl bands don't do that that well and it won't last and all this stuff and we i think that's what gave us the fire in our bellies to want to work so much and so hard to prove everybody wrong so i think that's why we were never we never just sat back and thought oh we were like what can we do now what else can we do how can we make this bigger where can we take this now like we were constantly going yes at a pace yes and i mean you could see it in in the results you know so yeah uh the biggest selling the biggest selling single shout out to my ex stayed at number one for three weeks achieved over two million in total sales in the uk wow billboard ranked black magic among the 100 greatest girl group songs of all time.

39:13Wow. The debut album, DNA, was the first by a British girl group to debut in the U.S. top five. Yeah. Spice Girls didn't even do that. That one was a big one. I mean, your fourth album, Glory Days, became the longest reigning top 40 album by a girl group since the Spice Girls. It's like numbers don't lie in terms of how successful the group was. Do you think there was ever a point where you were no longer the underdog or did you stay? Stayed. You stayed. Yeah, you could read those numbers to a million people and they'd be like, yeah, they weren't that good. People just didn't see us as that credible for a long time.

39:55I think eventually people started to see it, but I still think they looked at us and thought, oh, they're just four little girls in a pop group. I don't think they really saw the graft and the dedication and the numbers and the success that we had. I still think people kind of oversee it a little bit. Why do you think that is, right? Now that you could reflect back a little bit, I know it was a different time in terms of media. Yeah. But why do you think that Little Mix remained the underdog? I think part of it was our age and our name, which is great because it kept us young. But at the same time, I think we were like four little girls kind of at the start.

40:39And I think even when we were like 30 years old, people were still like, oh, little Megs. Like, I don't think they really like people age, funnily enough. And I think they always just seen us as like these little pop girlies. I don't think we ever shook that, which we didn't really care, to be honest, because we were like, we're living our best lives. But people did have that like opinion on us. So I got to the UK in 2017, 2018. Every time I heard Little Mix, right, I thought, you know, advocate around feminism. Yeah. Advocate around queer rights. Yeah. You know, so to me, those are positions of leadership, though.

41:25Did you feel like that gave the group any bit of the visibility of maturity? Yes, I do think so. I think like when I'm saying people didn't see us as that credible and all these other things, it was more the people that didn't want to like Little Mix. Everyone who wanted to like Little Mix, they were the reason we were so big because they were so dedicated. They were like diehard and still are like diehard fans. Like I think our Spotify streams were still one of the highest girl groups still. We haven't released a song in years, but they're still there. They're still listening. They're still loving it.

42:04And that's why I think we have it all to thank. Like they are everything, our fan base. They were huge. Yes. Like massive. Yes. Yeah. Massive. Gargantuan. Yeah. Large. Like every descriptor you could say for massive. It was so good. So those moments, though, I know that you've said that those are some of the greatest moments of your life, but it must have been challenging as well. Oh, yeah. When you reflect back, what was or what do you believe was the most challenging moment for you during your time with Little Mix? Oh, God. I don't even want to say it because everyone will be like, oh, let it go.

42:46It was so long ago. Probably going through a public breakup was the worst ever for me. It was horrible. And also going through like personal things with family or personal things with like we were so dedicated to Little Mix that I think we like being away from our family and friends was really difficult. Like that's another side that people don't see. We were like young girls whisked off and that was it. I didn't see my mom very much. My brother didn't see my family for a lot of time. And I think that was kind of the hardest parts. And then just going through anything personal in the public is just icky, McVicky.

43:25It's awful. Yes. How did you manage that? Because, you know, you were from looking at you as a little girl, right, moving around, the sense of I need to have some stability in my life. Yeah. Then you become an adult and you're moving around, going around. There's no stability. Yeah. So how do you then reconcile being able to feel safe and stable and this motion that you're continually in? I think I probably feel more safe and settled now than I ever have been. But I think it's because I have like a very stable relationship. I have a child like things aren't as chaotic as it was in the little mixed days so I think obviously having a child it just puts everything in perspective right you don't sweat the small stuff anymore you think there's actually bigger things in life than these worries and issues that I have like yeah they're valid it's great to feel them but I think when you kind of settle down and you meet your person and you have a child and all these lovely things happen in life it's like I can exhale I can exhale but during that time it seems like during the time in the group you couldn't I couldn't no it was too much it was really hard to have relationships when we were in Little Mix because I think it's a lot to ask of someone because we were never home like ever and we never really had days off it was probably like right about Christmas would get a little bit of time off but yeah I think it would have been hard to kind of navigate a relationship at that time anyway um and I remember meeting Alex and we were gonna go on the Ariana Grande tour for three months and I was like look I'm going on tour three months we can call this off now if you want and he was like well why would we do that and I just in my head assumed that someone wouldn't wait for me if I was doing my thing for three months so I just assumed oh he'll probably just go and and that'll be it and he was like why can't I wait for you for three months what's wrong with that and I was like really he was like yes well why wouldn't I what do you mean I was like okay fab and then that was when we started our relationship so the first three months of our relationship we were just skyping but let's let's talk about that though because because it's you had already assumed yes that you can't sustain a relationship with someone or maybe someone can't sustain a relationship with you or maybe it's not fair yes because of your your your job yes right so when you look back what what what do you think it was or what is it and this isn't just for you this is for anyone who's in in this constant flow in their position what do you what do you think the reason is is why a relationship can't be sustained i think it probably comes from maybe past relationships and how the other person's handled it.

46:29And then you just assume, oh, nobody's going to want this. Does that make sense? Yes. So I think maybe my previous relationship made me think, oh, I probably can't have my cake and eat it. I probably can't be a pop star and have a relationship. It's one or the other. Okay. Okay. Can we talk briefly about the past one? Because it was big. Yes. It was pretty big. So this is the relationship with Zane. Yes. Okay. So how would you describe it? Because you two were part of these two enormous groups. And it felt like, okay, the press was making it about the two of you. Yeah. But how would you describe that moment with him and how the public received you two?

47:17I think because we were so young and we were both starting out, it was very early days for One Direction and Little Mix. We just won X Factor when I met him. Yeah, I was on X Factor because I remember sneaking out every night to see them. So this is early. This was early days. Okay. And it was all very new for them as well. So I think meeting someone at that time in your career who's kind of at the same point is kind of refreshing. Because it's like, oh, you get it. Like, we kind of get each other. We've got this, like, same kind of thing going on. And it kind of just worked and maybe we clicked from that.

47:55And it was pretty easy at first, it seemed. And then I think it got more difficult, obviously, as it went on. Would you say he was your first true love? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because I can see it because it feels like you were, you know, you were in and out of the hospital. You were very sick when you were little. Yeah. You know, very strong relationship with your mom. Yeah. that x factor was really your evolution yes it was as as a woman yeah you know yeah so that's your first proper love yeah like i had little boyfriends at school and whatnot but nothing like oh my god this is it but we were engaged to be married so clearly we had feelings for each other but i think at that age i thought that this is it but when i look back now i'm like oh my god i was so young how was i to know that that was that was it because i didn't know any different do you what i mean yes so i think yeah now were you advised because also talking to many artists yeah almost all of them were advised not to at least showcase that they were in committed relationships because it would impact especially the men yes i was gonna say that yeah the men yeah it's always the the guys um not necessarily me I think part of us keeping everything private was because it was nice to have something private in general because everything else was just laid out but I think we didn't want to like it I felt bad for the girls because a lot was made to be about him and it was the start of our careers and I think everyone was worried that was like we're only going to make it because it's off the back of one direction and it's almost like our success was kind of linked to that which it's not the worst thing in the world but i think at the time it must have been frustrating for the other girls and getting asked about them all the time it is it is a bit annoying and when you're like young and you're in a relationship with someone you're not just going to talk about them 24 7 in interviews but it's what people wanted but then i would talk about it and people would be like shut up we don't want to know do you know what i mean like i feel like with when you're in the public eye like with relationships like even just then when you were asking about it made me feel a bit sick because it's been installed in me to just not talk about it because i can't win either way i talk about it people hate it i don't talk about it people get annoyed there's no like balance with that kind of situation that happened yes but then i'm like and it annoys me when you bring something up like probably the character could do anything people would be like get over it it happened years ago it happened it was a big moment in my life and it happened doesn't mean that i'm just like oh never mind move on like it's a big deal so i think it is tricky but i think loads of people in the public eye have that like every time they talk about previous relationships or anything it's like why are you harping on about it yes but then people are so interested they want to ask so i'm Like, I can't win.

50:59And then on top of all of that that you said, which I agree with, is that was your first love. Yeah. And I think that there is something that, especially in studying relationship science, is that that first love does a lot with regard to shaping how we then show up in our relationships. 100%. You know, so that's why it's also important to talk about it. Yeah. So then how did that relationship with Zane shape how you then loved after him? Probably not good. It wasn't ideal. I think it definitely, at the time, I thought everything we experienced in our relationship was normal. Because it was my first relationship, first love.

51:49I was like, oh, this is how it's supposed to feel. it's supposed to feel a little bit toxic in some ways this is probably normal and then when I become single I was almost thinking like I never ever want to go through that again I didn't even want to meet anybody I was like that's me done I don't think I could bear that pain like the pain of heartbreak is so grim that I remember thinking I'm done with men forever that's me done and then And when I met Alex, I had so many issues in our relationship at the beginning that I probably didn't notice at the time. But now reflecting back, I'm thinking, oh, that probably wasn't it.

52:29It wasn't good. And I've noticed it a lot. Like in the start of the relationship, I would handle things differently with Alex. And he'd come at it with such a level head that it would throw me. If that makes sense. It does. But can we talk about those things? So then how old were you when you and Zane broke up? I actually don't remember. Maybe 21, 22, maybe. Okay. A bit older. I can't remember. But you're still in the group, though. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're still in the group. So still in the group. So you're still in the group. You break up. And you had just mentioned that, you know, you and the girls, you feel each other's heartbreak.

53:09You feel each other's pain. Yes. So they must have felt that. Oh, absolutely. They went through it, them girls, bless them. We went through a lot. It was a really difficult time. I think the press, like, the public, it was just a lot. There was times when the girls would just huddle around me or there was times Leanne was doing crazy dances in the street just to distract from me because it was getting a lot. It was too much. It was just everywhere. It followed me like a bad smell that I can't smell. That you can't smell? That I can't smell. It was like a bad smell that you could smell. Yeah, I could smell that one.

53:40It was honestly like a really difficult time. I'd never navigated heartbreak, let alone having everyone criticize it in the public eye. So I think I felt embarrassed. I felt weird. I was really sad. And it was just like going through all these emotions and going through it with everyone staring at me was like, it was mortifying. How did you get through that heartbreak? The girls. Probably the girls. and it just so happens that at the time I think like black magic went to number one for weeks like things were really taken off in our careers I was so busy I was so dedicated to the girls that I thought I have to just get my shit together and get to work I can't sit and mope around I'm not gonna not go to work because I'm heartbroken so I had to just go through it grin and bear it and there was times when yes I caved in live performances and whatnot but the girls rallied ground so in live performances yeah down there was one i have never lived it down but the girls again the girls were just like straight away just made a shield and they were like yep nothing to say here so i think they yeah they were so on it like the girls just absolutely smashed it if it wasn't for them i really would have struggled and my family and friends and things like that so it was good i think it was just like i've just felt like a little fish in a ball really So how do you then go from that, like that moment of you're breaking down, right?

55:10So you're feeling the emotional weight of the breakup, which, by the way, is so painful for most people that it is the equivalent pain to breaking a bone. Really? Yeah. There have been studies around the equivalence of heartbreak. And they have attributed it, many scientists have attributed it to literally breaking a limb. It makes sense. It does. it feels like real pain you can't eat you can't sleep it's awful and it doesn't go away that quick either it takes a while yes but yeah i think it definitely shaped me in a way that i don't know i learned a lot which is good i think i learned a lot from the relationship um but yeah i think then meeting alex straight away though i was like he's just gonna break my heart what's the point so I just assumed Andy was a footballer so I thought I'm just asking for trouble and I remember it came out in the press that I was seeing Alex and my dad after just seeing me go through it he rang me he was like what are you doing I was like what he went you've just dated a boy band member who's completely shattered your soul and now you're going for a footballer and I was like yeah but he's not like the other footballers dad he's different he's really nice and he was like oh yeah great I bet he is so he was just fuming my brother was fuming was he my mom was a bit like really I don't know because we just had this impression of football as cheat as scandal whatever right but then I met him and I was like but he's so sweet and so genuine but what even got you to that point because you had just basically sworn off men for the rest of your life yeah it was like a year and a half later okay but see a year and a half later but still some sometimes it takes people years oh yeah it does yeah so what allowed you to then be open and where did you meet Alex the girls made me go on a date and I'm and I'm not I'm not good at being a single galley like I was and it was fun and I went on dates but I just think because I wasn't ready everyone just give me the egg and everyone just like i just didn't i don't think i wanted it i don't think i was ready but then i got to the point where i felt so alone and i was like i don't think i'm good at being single i think i'm a relationship person like i need that other person um but i felt like i yeah i loved it i felt independent i had a great time but then i was like i want to meet my person now okay i think it's time So it's a dating app.

57:45Dating app. So you're on there. Yeah. And so you see Alex. Mm-hmm. Okay. And then you message him or he messages you? The girls recognized him because they went to a game years ago and he was at the game. The girls were at the game and then the TV people were like, oh, it would be really cool if we had like a footballer and if you like a pop group, do you want to do it? And like obviously now I know he was like, is the blonde one there? Is the blonde one there? And they were like, no. and he was like, okay, I'll do it because he had a bit of a crush on me at the time. So the girls met him, thought he was really funny.

58:19They were having a bit of banter and then when he came up on Rhea, Jessie was like, it's that guy! And I'm like, who? And she was like, oh, well, he's really nice. You should match him. And I was like, what does he do? Who is he? We had no idea who he was. Oh, really? Because I don't come from a family of football hooligan fans either. Never watched football in my life. so obviously it was him and it wasn't until I was actually on a date with somebody else at the time, someone I was seeing for a little while and his name popped up on my phone, he randomly texted me while I was out at dinner and the guy I was with was like Alex Oxley Chamberlain just texted you and I was like hmm?

59:01And he was like the Alex Oxley Chamberlain plays for England and Arsenal and I was like is that good? I don't know and I was like, anyway, we don't need to worry about him. Can I ask though, how is he seeing what's on your phone? Yeah, that's what I thought. Bit weird, that wasn't it? Red flag. But he probably wants you to answer it. But he probably was just a bit like, oh my God, I think Sosin Chamberlain's messaging you. But at the time I was like, is that a big deal? I don't know. And it wasn't until I started dating him that he kept getting asked for pictures when we were out and I thought, what?

59:34And then I looked into him and went on YouTube and stuff and I had a little stalk, you know? I just remember meeting him thinking, don't think anything of it, Perry. Don't go into it thinking, oh, he's going to be the one. Just date him, see what happens. But I remember meeting up with him for the very first time at Cirque Nightclub. Okay. Yes. And I got there with Leanne and some of her friends. And I remember getting out the car and he was stood in the doorway waiting to meet us to take us to the table. And I remember pinching Leanne and I was like, I think I love him. Immediately. immediately I've gone from don't expect anything don't even get into it he's a footballer don't go there and I seen him and I was like oh and it's the first time I'd felt like that in such a long time I was like oh my god I actually fancy him I didn't fancy anybody like I think because I went through so much I was like no everyone gives me the ick don't even want to know it and then he was just completely different and he was really charming really funny so charismatic really He holds a room well.

1:00:37He's confident but not cocky with it. Like he's just got every – he was ticking every box like without even trying. And I fell for him pretty quick. Yes. But how did you – because you talked about those negative behaviors. Yes. That you picked up. Yes. So what were some of those that you exhibited early in your relationship with Alex? Probably like if something happened, I'd be worried how he'd react to such thing. Okay. And he'd be like... I mean, can you give an example? Like little things might happen and I'd think, oh, no, he's going to like kick off. He's not going to like this. And I'd be like, oh, this happened.

1:01:18And he'd be like, all right. And it would throw me. It was weird. He was like, he's very mature. He's very laid back. He's very level-headed. He doesn't, he's not the type to get mad or get angry or get funny about things. Very rarely we'll ever argue. We're practically in reverse, the pair of us. Like, we're so chilled. I see. And I, in my head, was a bit like, oh, he's going to be so annoyed about this, or oh, this is going to really piss him off. And it never did. And he was so chilled. And I'd be like, oh, okay. Okay, yeah. And it was refreshing. It was nice. So it seems, and you're not saying this, I'm saying this, this is my interpretation.

1:01:58Okay. That from the previous relationship, you felt like you were walking on eggshells almost. Yes. And then you enter this relationship thinking you have to walk on eggshells. Yep. And you're like, hold on for a second. I'm like, wait a minute. This is weird. I can, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We could talk about things. Yeah. Calmly. Yeah. Yeah. So did you feel like you were then pushing him away at all? Yes. these behaviors? I think so, yeah. I think I was just a bit like, oh, you don't care kind of thing. But at the same time, I'm like, wait, no, this is good. Like he's so calm and he's so lovely and he's so approachable.

1:02:42It's like, it's a good thing, if that makes sense. Yes. And I remember there was one point my ex reached out and I didn't know how to handle the situation because I'd been with Alex for like a year and a half, two years. And I felt a bit uncomfortable about it. and I remember sweating and like panicking thinking I've got to tell him that obviously I've spoke to him yes and I remember being terrified thinking oh no and then I sat down and I was like I need to tell you something he was like okay is everything all right I was like yes such and such reached out today and it was really weird and he was like saying what so I told him everything and then he was like okay well I really appreciate you telling me like thank you for letting me know that's fine like hopefully he doesn't contact you again and I was thinking okay cool that's it and that's that that that was it and it was like he he's always kind of been like that And I think I needed that.

1:03:41Yeah. It is, you know, I'm thinking about how to say this. It's like I think for many people, you hear about the importance of being in healthy, secure relationships. And I think what's very important for everyone to know is that you could be as secure as like you grew up. It sounds like you grew up with secure love with your mother and your father. Yes. But you could enter a relationship being a secure, what's called a secure attachment style, and if that person is not, you will then shift. You will then become unsecure. You could become avoidant, right? Or you could become something else. But once you move back to a relationship with a secure partner, you can then become secure again.

1:04:36And I think the beauty of that is, well, there's a beauty and a danger. The beauty and the danger is that who we choose as our partner is, in my opinion, the most important decision of our life. Because it dictates our health, our happiness, how much money we make, how long we live. Right. And so that's why having a partner who is healthy is so, so important. And it sounds like you have that with Alex. Yeah. And so in the early stages of that relationship, did you begin to think about, I may want to marry this guy? Yes. You did? Yes. Okay. I was thinking, I hope he asks. Okay. So you had those conversations?

1:05:25Yeah. Yeah, we did really early on. But he didn't propose until six years later. But, you know, we won't get into it. But he proposed, though. Yeah, he made me wait, but it was worth it. But we always knew we were going to be together forever, I think. How? Well, we hoped. How did you know it, though? I think we just get each other. We understand each other. We support each other. There's no competition. It's very much just I want to see him win, he wants to see me win. We want to build each other up. We want to build an empire together. And it's all very equal, which is what I've not really had in a relationship before.

1:06:06So I feel like we're even Stevens, which is nice. And he's just so supportive of me. Like everything I do, he's my biggest fan. He knows my album probably better than my A &R, better than my label, better than anyone. He will notice if someone's changed the production on something or the lyric changes or he's so just such a fan of mine, if that makes sense. And I love that. And it's so nice having someone in my corner being like. And he's also a very confident person with like business. And in his career, he's had to be very like outspoken in certain situations. And that's not me either. I hate confrontation.

1:06:47I avoid confrontation. I don't like arguments. I just cry. Like as soon as someone starts arguing with me, I can't do it. I'm not good at arguing with people. If I have a point to get across, then yeah, I'll sit and I'll hold it together and I'll get it across. But I've learned a lot from Alex because I was a pushover for a very long time. And he's like, babe, you don't need to be a pushover. You need to stand up for yourself and you need to be heard in these situations. And I'm like, but I can't. He's like, yes, you can. And he's really helped me, like, come out of my shell with that kind of stuff.

1:07:22So when you think about your love for each other. Yeah. Because so many people have not experienced love. Yes. I'm talking about pure, blissful, romantic love. Yes. How would you describe the love that the two of you have? Safe. It's calm. It's positive. it's not that horrible pit in your stomach that you need to like get the love it's it doesn't feel that way it's like you just accept it because it just comes if that makes sense so it's like it it's lovely it might sound boring to some but it's just so unproblematic and i love that we're not problematic people whatsoever in our relationships that's a very love it accurate description of what yeah true everyone is like yeah people like it's kind of boring it's unproblematic yeah it's safe like those are the descriptors for love that's what you want when you have to deal with such a stressful world yeah you want to be able to come back to a refuge yeah and have that certainty and that safety yes yeah yes so then motherhood yes axel yeah okay how does having a child change you?

1:08:44I think in every way possible. Okay. I think in a positive way. I think like I said earlier, like you don't sweat the small stuff anymore. You just see things so much differently when you've got a child. And I think you invest so much time, like you say, in their happiness that you kind of just live through them. And I love that this is his first, obviously it's our first time experience in life and we're still learning and navigating it. But I love seeing it from his point of view. And he asks so many questions that I'm like, huh, that's such a good question. And he's so much like his dad. He's so charismatic, funny.

1:09:24Like he's so jokes. He's got the best sense of humor. Like he's just lovely to be around. Like he's brilliant. Yeah. It's one of those where I've, have you always wanted to have kids? Yes, always. Same with me. I had, do you know what a Cabbage Patch kid is? Yes. Yeah, they're little dolls with the... Yeah. So I used to have the Cabbage Patch Kid. That's really cute. And I brought it to university with me. And I was like, I cannot wait to have one of these for real. For real. And I ended up literally having a child that looked just like my Cabbage Patch. Cabbage Patch! They were so cute. I remember them.

1:10:03Oh, my gosh. And it's one of those where it just fatherhood has changed my life, you know, to another degree. So how do you think it's changed Alex's life? I think it's definitely changed, but I think it's impacted him completely different than it has me in like the sense of like work and like the things that come with like a mom who's working as opposed to a dad. But obviously Alex is in Turkey as well, which must be so hard for him. And I know it is. And it's like I'm at home with Axel and I'm going through everything. But then I feel like it must just be so rubbish for him to not be present.

1:10:43But he feels like what he's doing is for the best because he's setting up our life for the future. And he's doing all these things. And he's very driven and he wants to keep going and he doesn't want to call it a day yet. And I admire that. But it is hard not having him with me all the time. But I think he'd probably say the same thing, like having Axel has changed his life for the better as well. Yes. Like for sure. You just, I don't know, when you birth like something that's just half of you and half of them, it's like this magical little being, isn't it? Yes. And they're just the best. Yes.

1:11:18It is, I think, the nearest thing to a miracle. Yes. That exists. Yes. Especially when you see your child for the first time, you think this is a miracle. Yeah. Literally, this is a miracle that I'm, you know. It's the best feeling in the world. Yeah. It's next level. Yeah. You know, so another topic that I want to talk about, and you can go wherever you want on this, is so yesterday, just yesterday, I was reading an article in Glamour magazine about you. Yes. And you know what the article, the title was? The title was Why We Should Stop Speculating on Perry Edwards' Pregnancy. Yes, I saw that.

1:11:59You saw that? I actually DM'd the writer and I was like, say it louder for the people in the back. Badass energy from you. Love it. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about messaging the writer as well. Yeah, I messaged her. I was like, this is brilliant. Love it. Can we just talk about just not speculation on you. Yes. But just the speculation on pregnancy among women. Yes. It seems to be prevalent. And I think it's, for me, it feels like it's increased. Yes. Over the years. Yeah. And I think there's a variety of reasons. But why, for example, that article, why did you applaud the writer? And if you could tell everyone even what the article, what the basis of the article was.

1:12:43Yeah. well I think so you can look at it two ways I guess with the whole pregnancy thing right it's a blessing it's beautiful people love pregnant women and they kind of just want to be like you're pregnant you're glowing and it's a beautiful thing but at the same time it's a very vulnerable thing for women it's a very private thing for women and I think you know when you're in the public eye it's true because the article was like if you speculated one of your friends was pregnant you wouldn't shout it on their facebook or their instagram be like oh my god you're pregnant you just wouldn't do it for everyone to see i don't think and i think we have to kind of navigate a bit better with that situation because it yes it's beautiful and it's exciting and it's speculation and is she pregnant i don't know i want to know but at the same time I mean, you don't know what's going on behind closed doors with women.

1:13:41And pregnancy is scary. It's worrying. There's so many things that come with being pregnant and the stresses and the scans and the problems and the complications. And, like, Alex and I have been through a lot with pregnancies that people don't necessarily know about.

1:14:10You don't have to apologize I've held it together so well I knew that was going to get me

1:14:20Yeah I think it's a sensitive topic for me and I know a lot of other women too um and i you know i don't think i haven't necessarily not shared it with people because i'm like ashamed of it or anything it's just that it's like such a personal thing to go through and it's really hard um i did amdr therapy on it which really helped but it still gets me um but you know I think it's a tricky situation you know me and Alex have been through a lot when it comes to pregnancies and things um Axel's rainbow baby so I had a miscarriage very early on with uh my first ever pregnancy and it was so early I remember finding out I was pregnant obviously I started bleeding not long after and I went to the hospital and I had the scan and they were like there's no baby and I was like oh I've made this up I'm maybe I got a false positive or something and I remember being on my own at the appointments because nobody was there and I remember going in to see like my gynecologist after with the reports and I was like can you just explain to me what so there was no baby like the baby was he was like no no no my darling you've had a miscarriage and I was like oh okay because I didn't understand I was like I thought you were saying there was never a baby.

1:15:52He said, no, there was a baby, but now there isn't. And I remember thinking, okay. And not like insensitively. It wasn't like traumatizing in the moment because I thought, oh, it was very early. It was one of those things. I kind of, it didn't, it wasn't, it didn't impact me that much. um and then when I had Axel when I was pregnant with him like I loved being pregnant it was one of the happiest times of my life like I just love carrying babies um and it was lovely but I was a bit on edge thinking oh gosh like I want to get past the 12 weeks I want to get past this and I want to get past every scan and that pregnancy was complete bliss it was perfect everything was great every scan was positive um and then we fell pregnant again after axel maybe a year probably not even um actually yeah not even a year because axel wasn't even walking yet and we were pregnant well and i remember thinking right i found out when i was rehearsing for the little mix to our the last little mix tour i was at rehearsals and i thought oh i don't feel good every every symptom under the sun I was like I think I'm pregnant so I remember doing a test finding out telling Alex and he was like this is great and I'm like okay great exciting and then didn't want to tell anybody because I was like I'm gonna wait again with Axel we didn't tell anybody for a very long time because we were a bit cautious making sure everything was okay before we announced it so with this pregnancy I remember being on tour and every night before a show I kept bleeding like too much information sorry but yeah I was like heavily bleeding I remember sitting thinking this is it I've lost the baby it's happening and then I went to like a scan like the next day or something and the baby was still there so the sac was still there but I had a blood clot around the sack and i was like oh my gosh okay this is a miracle baby's still there everything's fine and then again it kept happening every night on tour and i was thinking oh my gosh like i can't cancel the show i have to go out i have to put a brave face on i have to keep my shit together hopefully it's just the blood clot so every night it was just so uncertain of like is it this is it not right so i was completely on edge then obviously it all stopped everything was fine went to the scan 12 week scan baby looked great everything was beautiful we were like oh yeah this is it the clot's gone cleared up everything was fine and um then we went on holiday started to show because it was not long after I had axles so I was like pretty out here um managed to get through the tour though no problem hiding it people just thought I was getting a bit of weight yes um and then got back from our trip to Portugal and I think we went for what was our 20-week scan but we were actually 22 weeks and that was just the worst day of my life like horrendous um and I just knew something was wrong in the scan and he just kept going over the same thing over the same thing he was like sorry if I'm hurting you know I was like oh it's a bit uncomfortable like is everything all right and he seemed like not angry but our doctor was just like a bit like right he was like on a mission and I just looked at Alex and I thought something's not right and then i remember sitting down and i remember him just saying these things but i don't remember what he said i've never experienced like an out-of-body experience where you know when everything goes in slow motion yes and you start hearing everything sounds like in the movies yes that happened and i was like just sat there and all i heard was like alex just put his hand on my leg and he went oh no and i was just like oh no this isn't good so i remember sobbing he was injured at the time and he couldn't really drive he was struggling to drive but i couldn't say straight i was just distraught um and yeah we basically lost the baby at like 24 weeks so i think i was just traumatized um like it's weird because the first time it happened i think because it was so early I was like oh that's sad but I think when you're fully like carrying and you're 24 weeks and you've planned out like their room and all these things it's really hard yes um but no I've never spoke about it before because obviously I end up a wreck um and nobody knows other than like immediate friends and family and I remember like shortly after like friends would message and be like how's bump and i'll be like there is a bump um it's just a lot you were um your friend mylene yeah who's who's done a lot of advocacy yeah for uh especially bereavement around miscarriages yeah um i mean she was awarded mbe yeah i know she's incredible I love her so much.

1:21:10Oh, my God. Something that she said that has just, it just stays with me, is that when you're going through a miscarriage, that the baby stays with you. Yeah. You heard her talk about this. Yeah. The genes. It caused me. It's so incredible. I didn't know that. It blew my mind. I was like, oh, wow. That's so magical. Like, the thought of having that. And then if I'm blessed enough to have another baby in the future, it makes me feel kind of like that they're still a part of it in some way. Yes. Yeah. They will be. Yeah. They will be. All of them. Yeah. You know, she really has changed. I think she's helped so many.

1:21:55Oh, yeah. And not just women, but men. Because the, so my wife and I went through a miscarriage. Yeah. And I think what's often not discussed is how the man hides behind emotion and doesn't discuss, doesn't know what to say. That's Alex, yeah. Yeah, I can imagine that Alex has gone through quite a lot of emotion. Yeah, I think, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think when a woman becomes pregnant and, you know, the second you pee on that stick, you're like, right, what college are they going to? like you plan their life you have this maternal kind of pull straight away you have this attachment to this baby and I know for Alex it's me that he's worried about it's me who he's stressing over and like we've spoke about it before and Alex just always feels like helpless and like through that whole situation he was like it's not about me it's not about me it's about you and I'm like no but It's about us.

1:22:58Like you have feelings in this too. It's your baby too. And he's like, yeah, but I'm not going through it the way you are. I don't have to do all these things. And like, he's like, but I just hate not being able to help. And I'm like, but you are helping because you're there and you're here and we're navigating it together. But I do think like we forget that there's two people. It takes two to make a baby, of course. And I know he definitely went through it, but he keeps it to himself a lot of the time. But I know he struggled massively. Yes. But he just finds it really hard to not be able to step up and do something about it.

1:23:37Yes. And this is what I think the script that society has handed men is that we need to be the fixers. Suck it up, brave it, fix it. We fix it. There's a problem. So how do you fix it? Yeah. And I think that's why so many men, we turn to work. So we say, okay, you know how we're going to fix it? We're going to make sure that our wife has a better life. Oh, yeah. We're going to make sure that our child has a better life. Yeah. That they're more secure. Yeah. And in actuality, while that could be helpful, it could also be harmful. And what I've learned, and it seems like Alex did this for you, and you continue to do this for him, is to simply hold space for your partner.

1:24:19Yeah. So your partner knows when they are ready, you are there for them. Yeah. When they are ready. Yeah. It's their time. But when they're ready, you will be there for them. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. No, I think. Thank you for sharing. Thanks for listening. Sorry, I really went for that sob, didn't I? Crikey. I tell you what, you never apologize for showing emotion. Yeah. Ever. I'd love just to address panic, your panic attacks. Yes. Because this is something that I see has become more and more prevalent in society, especially as we're more anxious living in this world.

1:25:02Yeah. So when did you first come across or when did you first realize that you were having a panic attack? And what have you learned about panic attacks? Well, I remember the first time having one. It was in Vegas. It was like years ago. We went to Vegas for some promo and like performances and things like that. And I just started experiencing panic attacks, which I'd never had before. So I thought I was dying. I was like, I'm having a heart attack. This is it. I'm a goner. So I went to the hospital. And it wasn't until I flew home and I rang my doctor because I made my mom ring an ambulance. And she rang my doctor and was like, Perry wants me to ring an ambulance.

1:25:45She thinks she's having a heart attack. And he was like, she's probably having a panic attack. And my mom was like, oh. And I was like, don't listen to him. I'm dying. Ring, ring someone. I'm dying and she was like oh okay and then it kind of just like kept happening it was almost like once the floodgates opened it just kept becoming a thing and then I developed like panic disorder which was obviously the fear of having panic attacks so I started avoiding so much in my life because I was just so fearful of having a panic attack that it was going to creep up I see and it's so scary and when you were in the panic attack you said you felt like you were going to die what were the what were the other symptoms or or how what were the uh what did you exhibit it's like it starts with like a tingly neck and then my arms and legs go a bit limp and my heart starts racing I can't really breathe sometimes my vision kind of goes blurry so it's just like literally feels like this this is it I'm done and you know for years I thought that like having a panic attack was the scariest thing in the world which it still feels that way but I've done a lot of therapy recently since September it got really bad I couldn't leave the house in September um just a few months ago yeah September last year yeah yeah and it was so intense and I remember thinking this is not what I want for my life and I know it's not as easy as that I'm not saying I switched it on and off because I don't but I remember sitting down with my therapist saying I want to get married I want to have more kids I want to have a successful career I want to do all these things and I feel like I'm really limited and my you know like my capability is huge I'm capable of anything in my mind but my capacity was not big it was really minuscule and I just didn't have the capacity for anything at the time and anything to do with being a mom easy taking Axel to nursery taking him here there and everywhere fine But when it came to like myself, because I guess you have to step up for your children, obviously.

1:27:50Yes. So you have to kind of think, right, I've got to get through it. Whereas with work and stuff, I thought, is it even worth it for me anymore? I don't know if it is. Like, I don't want to feel that way every time I leave the house and go to work. Is this when you stopped? Because I know you had stopped recording at a certain point in your career. Is this because you were reevaluating? Yeah. Was that around the same time? Yeah, I was kind of at a bit of a crossroads. And at the time I thought, oh, this is awful. But really now I'm looking at it, I'm like, no, it was a blessing. I got to a crossroads and instead of going that way, I went this way because I had to, like I had to get through it.

1:28:25And I didn't know because having the panic attacks in my mind, I thought once I've had a panic attack, I'm done. I'm done. That's it. I didn't realize you could have a panic attack and then come out the other end of it and think, oh, I'm all right. Yes. I've never had that because it normally lingers for such a long time and the anxiety is just there for so long. It's so overwhelming. Yes. And I, you know, started having therapy a lot more. Started digging to it. I've done a lot of like belief system things like what are my beliefs? Why do I feel certain ways when I'm doing things and why do I feel trapped?

1:28:59Why do I feel like this is going to trigger my anxiety or panic? And I started to do like, is it titration? Yes. So I started to, it sounds ridiculous, but I'd go to the shop for a few minutes and then come back. And then I'd go again. And it's almost like I had to remind my nervous system that it was actually safe. And like I go through a lot with therapy as well. Like, you know, there's the adult, the child, the teenager. I think I was in my inner child for such a long time. I was just scared of everything and everything just terrified me. Yes. And I couldn't access my adult. My adult was not online.

1:29:40She was offline. And it was just this scared little girl rocking in the corner. That's how it felt like. Yeah. You know, on this, what I find so interesting about panic attacks or anxiety is how prevalent it is. Right. So even in the statistics right now, one in three people, one in three experience a panic attack at some point in their life. Really? That's mind-blowing. One in three. One in three. In the UK, up to 2 % of people have had panic disorder, which you described, right, which is a type of anxiety disorder where you're scared, right, of having the panic attacks. Yes. And then one in three will develop agoraphobia.

1:30:25Yes. Which you also have. Yes. You have everything, Perry. I'm winning. If it's a game, I'm winning. You are crushing it out here. I'm taking them all off. Just for fun. Yeah, no. I'm just unlucky, I guess. So agoraphobia is twice. I mean, we're laughing about this, but it's serious. It's really serious. It's twice as common in women as men. Really? Yes. So what is agoraphobia? So agoraphobia is when you feel, well, from my experience, I feel very unsafe and uneasy when I leave the house. There you go. don't feel safe and I think for me it was a case of like I didn't want to go too far from home because it was too hard to get back so home was my safe space and I kind of told myself in my house where I'm safe nothing can get me nobody's out to attack me I'm not going to have the panic attacks I'm safe here but now I've realized that that is limiting me from doing the things that I love more than anything which is my work my singing being a mom like all these different things and I just thought something's got to give and I can't just keep assuming I can fix myself because I can't clearly so I started having the therapy and that's why I think I've I've come so far since last September like look I'm here now having this conversation which is wild because if you asked me in September I'd be like never never I couldn't do that I couldn't do that yeah whereas since September I've been to Turkey three times Portugal twice work every other day here there and everywhere like went to view a wedding venue all these things that I thought were impossible in September I just couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel it it is it is a great I think testament to your resilience that thing you get from your mama.

1:32:22It's a good testament also to, and I think it's a good place for everyone to sit back and think, okay, why do we have panic attacks? Why do we have anxiety? From all of my research around it is some of it is genetic, some of it is circumstantial, some of it is based on relationships, et cetera, that we've had. Yeah. It could also be something like, I understand when you were in Vegas, when you had that panic attack, you had espresso. Yeah, I did. Yeah. And I'd never drank caffeine ever in my life. That is often a touch point, right, to anxiety. So it's like it's this equation. But it lives up here.

1:33:03And you have done the work. Yeah. And literally you are here as a result of doing the work. So I applaud you for that. Thank you. And it's not easy. I'm not sitting here being like, oh, my God, I just woke up one day and thought, I don't want this life. It wasn't that. It was days and days and nights and sleepless nights and upset stomach and shakes for weeks to even get to like the next step and then the next step. So it wasn't easy. It's been hard. I'm still not 100 percent, but I'm so much better now than I was then. And I'm like so grateful and so proud of how far I've come. is this giving you the strength to work on new music it did yeah i've finished my album you finished the album yeah okay can we talk about this for a second yes because whenever a guest is coming in yes i like to look at their catalog okay i like to evaluate okay see what kind of talent i'm working with yes uh i think your voice is angelic thank you i'm serious it is angelic thank you right yeah so when are we getting new music oh asap asap yeah so if you wanted to we would is the first kind of comeback single if you if you will um but i thought my album was finished like last year i thought it was all done and dusted ready to go and then i kind of just sat then i was like it's not done it doesn't feel authentically me it doesn't feel like my sound and what I want to do um and then I spent again a lot of time in therapy and a lot of time behind closed doors and just like took the pressure off and I remember my therapist saying like you can't access your creativity when you're constantly under pressure and you have the weight of the world on your shoulders and you've got deadlines and people saying come on we need to get going like we need to do this so when I'm in sessions I'm like quick I need I need a song I need a single.

1:34:58That isn't fun. That's not creative. It's not genuine. So I just said to her, like, I might just take some time off. I might just stop for a little while, go quiet, figure out what I actually want to do. Yes. Instead of doing it through my music and putting things out and hoping for the best and seeing what works and what doesn't, I feel like I needed to take some time, find my sound, which I think I have. Okay. Write some songs that I absolutely adore. So you were writing. And I've written majority of my album now, whereas before I'd probably written four songs on the whole album. Now I've probably not written four of the songs of the whole album.

1:35:37So it's like a huge deal for me because I'm like, oh, my gosh, I've done it. I've actually I have the worst imposter syndrome. I don't feel like I'm that great at writing or like I didn't think I was capable of these things. I just thought I'm just going to sing. Goes back to being a kid. Can't do anything academic. Can't do anything else. but I can sing. So I thought, if I can just sing some songs, everything will be fine. And then when I got in the sessions, I thought, no, I'm actually quite good at this, I think. I actually enjoy it. And now I'm in a place with my album that if I release it tomorrow and one person loves it and they think it's the best album ever, I'm happy.

1:36:17I'm done. I'm sold. Like, that's good for me. That's success for you now. Yes. Whereas before, my success was kind of determined by how people would take my music and how I would chart and things like that, which doesn't massively bother me. But when it's not authentic to me and it doesn't work, it's a double-edged, like, it's like a whammy to the soul. Yes. But now that I love my songs so much, if I adore them and they're so true to me and they're so authentic, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Yes. Because I love it. Yeah. You know what? I'm super excited about this album because I feel like you have lived experience yes you know and I think as a fan you can tell when an artist is just regurgitating words that were written for them a million percent you know you can I've learned that now but that but you can tell when an artist has lived it yes and there's just this other connection that you make with the art and the artist.

1:37:22And that's what we're going to do on your new album. Yeah, that's 100 % it. Yeah, yeah. This is good. This is good. So now, Perry. Yes. We're coming to the end here. Oh, my gosh. Last question. Everyone gets this. You've had some incredible conversations throughout your life. Yes. When you think about the most memorable one, who was it with and what did you learn? oh gosh most memorable conversation oh actually i've got a good one my mom of course of course it's for deb's she always says to me i always worry about things with axel or like is he in the right space for this age is he doing what he should be doing and all the milestones there and this that and the other and i feel like that a bit about myself as well i'm should I be where I am right now and is this right?

1:38:18My mum is choosy as it sounds. She's like, listen, darling, we're like butterflies. Some fly high, some fly low. But at the end of the day, we all get to where we end up needing to be and we'll get there one way or another. Whether we're up here, down there, going through, we always end up where we're supposed to be. So just, you know, let it happen kind of thing. And I think it's so cute. And I'm like, every time I'm doubting things and I'm like, oh I should be ahead of this right now or I should be I'm like no I'm just a butterfly and I'll get there in my own time when it's meant for me and what's for you won't go by you that's another one Deb says what's for you won't go by you yeah what's for you won't go by you if it's meant to be for you it won't pass I love that I love that I love your mother I need to And this interview right now so I can go give her a hug.

1:39:11But I want to say this. Final note is I think you are beyond incredible. Thank you. I saw you. Well, thank you. But I knew that the second that I met you. There's so many people that I meet, especially in this line of work. And you can kind of tell when someone is giving you a performance. You can kind of tell when someone is faking. Yeah. But you came in as genuine as you were leaving. No, that's nice. And I think, Perry, that's your superpower. No, thank you. I think that you are incredibly kind and everyone knows that everyone around you. And that's why good things will continue to come your way because of how kind you are.

1:39:59and I want you to truly I want you to hold on to that because in a world that is so cruel we need more Perry's that's the sweetest thing I changed my mind this is the best conversation I've had and I'll remember that now from the bottom of my heart that's really cute we do thank you so keep doing what you do oh thank you so much thank you my biggest takeaway is that Perry's normal, you know, but in a great way. You think about how big Little Mix was, how much of an international celebrity she is, the stages that she's, you know, that she's walked across and performed on, the people that she's met, the massive following that she has, but yet she's so normal.

1:40:50and I would argue almost the most normal celebrity I've ever met, even to the point where she brought her mom and her son with her. Yeah, she's just normal. And I say that in like the highest level of respect. Parenting and relationships, we sometimes place in a box outside of profession or career. Why? Right? Just as you would have a mentor in your business or just as you would have a trainer in sports, why not have a mentor when it comes to parenting? We looked at several people, but in particular, my aunt and uncle, and we would observe how they parented and we would talk about how they parented.

1:41:41Just that by itself is enough to become a conscious parent. And this is what the world needs, more conscious parents. You know, when you have a healthy relationship with a parent, you then know what to do and almost what not to do. And so it's kind of like Perry got this blueprint of how to be a great mom. And she's executing it precisely. Because we also met Axel. Axel was here. Axel just gave me a high five. And he's so powerful that my left hand hurts. How old is Axel? Like three, four? This guy is strong.