MAFS Star Ella Morgan "You Say I'm Crazy, You're With Katie Price Now!" Most Trans People Attempt To Take Their Lives

31:02Did you feel any of that at school or in other social circles? um yeah I I do remember from a very young age feeling like I didn't fit in I didn't know I was trans until I was kind of 11 12 but I definitely thought from a young age and I knew from a young age I felt different you know as a parent and I don't know I haven't got kids but it's like you have a child okay but you base the gender on their um genitalia genitals yes so and instantly there's this like social construct of okay you've got a boy blue has to play football oh you've got a girl I'm hoping that kind of changes now but it's like pink play ballet and your girls your friends are all girls and that's how you're kind of programmed to think and that was also on things I watched or in books I read it was always princess meets prince charming and like it's all people talk about trans people trying to brainwash kids I'm like we all still get brainwashed with what society thinks that boys and girls should like and do etc from such young age and so I knew that I was different but I couldn't put my finger on it and I did face a bit of I mean my whole life I've faced bullying like a lot of people all my friends were girls so I didn't really get on with the boys um and so in primary school that doesn't affect things so much but when you then go into secondary school and like you've got things like PE where the boys how to be with the boys and girls with the girls.

32:27I hadn't faced that in primary school. I could just be with my girlfriends and we weren't segregated from one another. Whereas all of that changed in secondary school. Your point about that social construct is so powerful. You know, I remember with our firstborn son, Kingston, there was this beautiful writing that we had above his, well, we call it a crib. What do you call it here in the UK? No, a crib. It's a crib. Yeah, it is a crib. Okay, it's a crib. Beautiful writing, Kingston. And I remember my wife and I saw it. It was in pink letters. It was great, beautiful, right? We place it up pink.

33:00And I'll never forget some friends coming over and asking me, Paul, why did you have pink lettering for your son? And I was thinking, this is the most ridiculous question you can ask me. But I also realized the reason why is because I was able to experience things within my life and be supported to, in essence, not be as ignorant as those folks. But it was through, I think, phenomenal parenting that I had. So I would imagine that you were able to feel comfortable in yourself and comfortable with the girls because of your parents. Yeah. And the love and protection and safety they gave you. And they did.

33:47They loved me and my brothers. And my brother Ross wanted an Ariel Barbie doll. He was obsessed with Ariel. And they just let him have it. And so I think a lot of the time people are so fixated on like gender. I hate gender of ill parties. I absolutely hate them because, you know, what if they end up like me? You've done all of that and then they end up changing gender anyway. So waste of money. No, I'm joking. Don't have children if you're going to be appalled that they've turned out to be gay or, you know, that their life's ambition is to go away and do this and they don't want to live in the UK or just any aspect of life really you could say that about.

34:24You just mentioned at 11 is when you realized you were trans. Yeah. Now, help me understand this because at 11, I had no idea what transgender meant. Yeah. Me at 11. So at what is it because at 11 you became familiar with what trans was. What trans. Yeah. Okay, that's why. Yeah. So we did sex education in school. Okay. And up until that point, I was kind of aware from watching soaps and things, what someone who's queer, someone who's gay or bi or lesbian was from watching things on TV. But I didn't know and ever really spoke about trans or what trans was. And so I think I did sex education. And I generally mean this.

35:11It was a light bulb moment where I just kind of the definition was described. Someone who's trans is somebody who's born in the wrong body and assigned a different gender at birth to how they feel. And it was like, oh, my God, this is me. I knew I fancied guys or I was attracted to guys from quite a young age. But because nothing about trans had been mentioned, I was like, maybe I'm going to turn out like my brother who's gay. Like, maybe I just fancy men. I'm not sure. But then as soon as I knew, I was like, I'm trans. I was like, I'm a girl, but I, and it all made sense. Like I was born in the wrong body.

35:49I have to imagine that moment must be. Yeah. Cause my whole family is mainly just boys. I suddenly felt, I know that I had a purpose, but there's other people like me out there. So I am, those feelings I had made sense. You're not alone. Yeah. You're not alone. Yeah. What did you do with that information? Did you go talk to your brother or maybe your mother? No. No. I kept it in because then I do this thing where if I think about stuff, I obsess over it and then I just like to look at it. I go down these rabbit holes and I'm just like, okay, I'm going to focus on that. So at the minute, it's a Birkin bag.

36:33I really want a Birkin bag. So I'm just like focusing on that. But I remember. I like a Birkin bag too. Oh, so good. Yeah, I would like one too. so I remember as soon as I knew I was I'm you know I'm trans I was born in the wrong body I'm a girl but I just remember I need to keep this information to myself and I obsessed over it and I was like I'm gonna do computer work ICT or IT whatever the lesson's called because I didn't we didn't have a computer or a PC at home for a while and I would just google and research and be like trans what's trans what's trans and then I started being like okay there's a program on soon but it's past nine o 'clock I was probably in bed where Big Brother Nadia was on or there was a documentary about lady boys and different cultures and I started to just see it everywhere and then I was just like oh my god I need to know more about it.

37:21Just a heads up we'll be discussing eating disorders and suicide. Please watch with care and you can find support charities in the episode description. is this when your eating patterns began to to change oh god yeah oh i was obsessed with things like um like the kardashians or like america's next top model and i would watch these shows and i would fixate on the type of woman that i that i would look up to which was this you know pamela anderson and um tyra banks um and those were the days where magazines would really put you know this who wore it better this person or this person and they would really ridicule people on the front page and so I started to have this very unhealthy attitude towards food but I basically would make myself sick because I wanted to be skinny I wanted to be small I was thinking well my friends keep talking about bleeding and my friends talk about bras and things like that and what that's going to happen to me like that will happen to me and I used to look in the mirror and think like I don't look like a girl I don't look like my friends and I want to and I thought by doing that I would resemble more of a feminine body even though Paul I was tiny I was so small and I've always been small that's why I look back now and I just think I can't believe that I did that for so long I think my mum and dad knew what was going on because he'd stand outside and I remember I got shouted at because it was like, what are you doing?

38:57Why are you being sick? And then I was being bullied in school and I would use that as an excuse to not go to school because I'd say, you know, I've been sick, I've been sick because I made myself sick. I'd eat yoghurt in the morning because I knew I could always bring that up.

39:15This is funny talking about it now. So when I was like 12, 13, that was definitely a time where I struggled And I found it really difficult. So if you showed me a picture of that, it would have been very different to the answer that I would give for this. Did you at that point begin experimenting with different clothing at that point as a result of? So it was the sick. It was the bulimia. It was the trying on my mum's clothes. Obviously, the house is full of boys. You know, I wanted to grow my hair. Didn't really like getting it cut. I had this big sweeping fringe. and I'd want to dress as feminine as I could without actually being clocked and being like, okay, well, that's, you know, girl's outfit, you can't wear that.

40:03So I still wear makeup, you know, any money I'd get, I'd secretly try and get my girlfriends to buy things for me with it. And I try and live as girly as I could without it being given away, because I generally thought everyone in my life was going to I actually I actually remember this I believed that my parents and everyone else around me was what was going to disown me and so what I thought in my head for so many years was before I got to the age of like um 16 17 when I left school was I'm actually gonna to have to leave school and then learn to drive which is one of the first things I did and then I'm going to move away I pre-empted um that my family were not I'm not going to cry because I always cry but I just pre-empted my family and what I thought their reaction was going to be and I thought I'm going to disappoint them so I actually remember thinking this is such a I remember this I remember thinking I'm going to learn to drive and I'm going to move to a different country or I'm going to move somewhere else because they're not going to support me they're not going to they are going to disown me like and I just remember thinking how am I going to navigate my life but I know I so desperately wanted to just be able to express myself as Ella and be Ella outside.

41:34And talking about it now makes me so sad because I've got the best relationship with my family. And it just makes me sad that there's probably kids out there that maybe feel like that. Sure, that the only way to live your true identity is to leave all the people that you love. Yeah, yeah. That's incredibly powerful because you talked about how much love there was in your home. But these counter images and information that you were reading about was so negative around the transgender community. It seems like you felt like, okay, this is who you are, but it's not a good thing. It's negative. Yeah, everything to do with being trans I thought was negative.

42:26Other than me, be authentically myself and look the way I've always kind of dreamed of looking, everything else connected to being trans I thought was a negative thing. It was negative. There's some statistics here that are alarming. Nearly 50 % of transgender teens, over 33 % of young transgender adults, reported disordered eating behaviors. Think about that. including binge eating, fasting, using pills, laxatives, or vomiting for weight loss. 50 % of transgender teens. That's mind-blowing. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's mind-blowing. And also, it's important to say, too, is that what you described is an eating disorder, right?

43:16An eating disorder is a mental health condition where you're using the control of food to cope with feelings were other situations. But it makes me sad that I would do that because I actually look back at pictures now from that time of my life, and I wasn't big, so I don't know what I thought. But I know I was just hurt, and I was scared and confused and upset. What I did know about your story that is now, you know, it's quite sad, is how alone you were during this period. because there was no one that you were talking to. So you were getting this information where you're just online and then you were making these decisions yourself without even talking to anyone.

44:02No friends, no one. No, I was scared. This was at a time where it wasn't discussed. It wasn't something that people would really talk about. Whereas now people are having these open conversations and it's a lot more open than it was when I was younger. I was a bit like, I can't talk to people about it because if this person tells that person, my mum might find out or my brothers might find out and they were in the same school as me. Fair, fair. So with this continuing to build up, you're in your early teens and set the parameters where you want to on this. But then at 16, roughly 16, things take another turn for you.

44:59Oh, God. Just give me a second.

45:08Oh, no, I'm sorry.

45:15Um.

45:20it's really hard to talk about. But sadly, like statistically, most trans people do attempt to end their lives either before transition or during or after. So my story is just one of so many. I suppressed, like, being Ella. Like, I somehow managed to do day-to-day life as ever. so where I used to live there was a big motorway bridge it's called the Avermouth Bridge and there was a side alley like walk path pathway to get to the other side I just felt so low that I was like I keep you know every day having to wake up and put on this front and be this person that I'm not and lie to everyone and when can I be me when is my life going to change and I just that day I it door just got too much and I thought I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel and I was started to walk up towards this this the bridge and I got to the middle and I just remember

46:30that I could see actually my family home where I lived um in the distance but the what I was thinking in my head was that my family would probably be better off without me and that I'm never gonna be able to change and I'm never gonna be able to live this happy life like all my brothers or like my friends do. And I just kept thinking like I'm a mess, like I'm a freak, like I will never be able to be the person that I am now sat with you. I was like, I don't think I've got the courage or the guts to physically sit my parents down and say to them, I'm a girl and I'm going to transition. So for me, the easy way out was to end my life.

47:19So I sat there and I just, I sat on the floor and I was just going to and fro of, okay, well, I'm not going to ever be able to be me. I'm going to let my parents down because I'd had their love so unconditionally up until that point that that's all I'd ever known, like all I'd ever known was their unconditional love. And I just thought I'd rather end my life now knowing that that's all I've ever had than to tell them about what I was feeling and how I felt and disappoint them and not make them proud. And I didn't want to embarrass them. and I just remember thinking this is the easy outcome for everyone I don't have the strength to go through this and so it was life or death like when people say to me why did you choose this it was literally life or death and I just remember thinking like oh god

48:28that I didn't want to let them down and so right this is it I'm going to end my life and then they can meet their happy family without me and I won't break their hearts and they will never need to know the reason that I was feeling this way or why I did it. You know, it can be a secret that dies with me. Oh, God.

48:52And I must have been sat there for a good hour. I looked through the pictures and obviously I had family pictures on there and I thought I can't do this to them like it would absolutely break their hearts if I really do this at least they deserve is for me to be open and honest with them and whether they accept me or not I it was like a turning moment I thought I don't want to leave them I miss them too much and I love them and I was like I need to get the strength now to face the music and I was like I I would actually rather be here as Ella than to die as Evan and die as a boy and never have got to have lived the life that I'm living now.

49:36So sometimes it's like moments like this where I pinch myself.

49:43And I just remember thinking, no, I need to get up now and go home and tell my family how I'm actually feeling. If they support me, they support me. If they don't, they don't. So, and I'd kept all of this in for years, so I knew it was going to be a bit of a shock to them. Yeah, you're right, because at 11 is where you discovered, so you're 16 now, so for five years you've kept this secret. And it was also not just them, but it was also me. Like, I wanted to be Ella. Like, I wanted to get to live this life and, like, know what it's like to date a boy and be beautiful and look in the mirror and feel happy with how I looked and just be the girl that I've always known I am.

50:20Like, I wanted to experience that. So it was my mum I had the conversation with. and I sat on my bed. This is the same day? No, no, it must have been maybe a few weeks later. Okay. Because I still had it in my head that they were probably going to disown me and so I kept thinking I need to drive, I need to learn. I had this fixation with learning to drive so I could get away and escape. Yes. And I remember the day I was in my bedroom and she came and sat on my bed and as a teenager she'd said to me um privately like are you do you mind me asking after my brother came out as gay do you mind me asking are you uh gay and I was like no no I'm not and it always stayed with me for a while because I was like she knows she's on something she knows something but I was like no she won't know she came in and she said like what's wrong and I just I remember breaking down and being like please don't hate me please don't be angry she said do you want to be a girl and I said no mum I am a girl and this is what I said at the speech at the dinner party at maths I said my mum asked me and and I just said no I am a girl and I said you won't be able to understand this or believe this now and I know I'm sat here in boy form but I have always been a girl like I always have felt like I am Ella inside and now I want to be able to just blossom and be this butterfly which is why i've got the butterfly on me tattooed um so she took it better than i thought when i slowly started telling friends um that's when i started telling people around me i remember talking to my brother ross and i was thinking okay you still but you still haven't told your father yet no no no i actually i didn't ever tell my dad he ended up finding out i never really sat down and told him there was a load of leaflets from the doctors because I'd gone to the doctors.

52:13I went on my own. And I said, I don't know if you've come across this before, but I am a girl and I feel like I'm born in the wrong body. The way I think and everything about me just doesn't align with how society thinks I should be or how everyone else views men. She said, no, this is new to me, but we'll help you through this. And she was really supportive. And she got these leaflets and she told me how the pathway works, where she would refer me to a psychiatrist for an assessment to check my mental health and things like that. And I wasn't open, actually, about my eating. People always like to put a blame on, like, I always used to get asked, were you molested as a child?

52:57Were you raped? Has anyone ever touched you? Have you ever had bad eating habits? Have you ever tried to kill yourself? All these things. And I obviously lied because I thought, I need to lie to get through this, pass it, and just be Ella. So she did what she said. This all took a very long time, by the way. And the NHS waiting list is even longer now. The NHS waiting list right now is five years. Can I ask a question about this? Because I saw this in the research. Let me see if I can find it here. To legally get gender reassignment surgery, you must prove that you have two years of real-life experience living as a woman.

53:36Was that the case for you? So gender reassignment surgery is the surgery. So you only need to do that two years lived experience if you want to have surgery, which obviously not every, I think about 40 % of trans women at least, do go ahead with having gender reassignment, which is the vagina, the making of the vagina. And just so I'm clear is what journey are you on right now? So I'm still presenting as Evan. Okay. I've told my mom, I spoke to the doctor and I've had my assessment with the psychiatrist. But basically got to a point where even though I knew I was on the list to go to the gender clinic, I physically couldn't wait any longer.

54:13I literally was like, I can. I said to my mum, I don't want to be like, I need to do this now. I need to do this. So I decided to physically transition. so I decided to do this two years of what they're talking about is to work as a woman to pass as a woman to mix with society to come out and to present physically as a woman that's what that means so I thought right soon as I've got to this gender clinic I want to be able to say I've done the two years already but luckily I didn't have to wait that long. Can I ask though is that because at this point when you decide you've not presented as a woman publicly no so could you describe that first day oh and i say that first day is first time going publicly going to whatever it may be so i had a friend um claudia who i used to and obviously at this point i'm still working like in a supermarket in a waitress uh whilst going to college so i was like fine I'm gonna do your money I earn once I pay my bills I'm gonna start buying my wardrobe so I used to get everything delivered I had wigs hair extensions makeup I had no clue what I was doing Paul I looked a hot fucking mess and it's funny because like the memories it was fun because I just got to be me I remember her parents were probably a bit like oh what's going on here but I used to go around to hers I'd walk up to her house and I would literally try on everything and that's where I'd put makeup on and she'd dress me up and I'd sit there as Ella.

55:46Then I decided I was like, right, I need to now do this publicly. I want to go to work. Because also, I'm sorry to interrupt, but it seems like when you would do that at Claudia's, you would then have to take it all off. Yeah, I did. And then it all stayed at hers. Yeah. It was all at her house. And I think maybe her dad said to her, we can't keep this. I think they kept it in the garage. and he said um Claudia we can't keep this all here now Ella like needs to take it so I was thinking oh god I'm gonna have to where do I hide it so I did take it home eventually um right now I'm still presenting at home and publicly as a boy uh I put all of it under my bed along with the leaflets for the gender clinic and we were going on a family holiday um a few weeks after this is like the summer we had this massive row because I was like I don't want to go on holiday and this is then when it all started coming out about me your father had found out found out that i was gonna change and i was on that pathway to change and i wanted to be ella um and i remember saying i don't want to go on holiday because i don't want to have to be in swimming trunks i want to cover up like i want to be a girl um and yeah we had an almighty round and then he found all of this stuff under my bed and he hid it in the garage i remember that He got quite angry.

57:05I didn't know this was happening, but my mum and dad were arguing about it because she was obviously supportive at first and then he wasn't. And where he wasn't supportive, it was them turning my mum kind of like the other way. And she was like, actually, I can't be involved with this. You're going to have to move out. So I remember her saying, you're going to have to go. To your father? No, to me. To you? To me, yeah. Oh, my goodness. But the reason why that hits hard is because, to me, that feels like that taps into a fear you had since you were 11, and that was your family disowning you. Yeah.

57:40I didn't know how my dad was going to react, and I was petrified. And I was thinking, oh, my God, this is all going to be a disaster now. I'm going to have to go. That's your worst nightmare. Yeah. It wasn't a positive time is what I remember. And this is you sitting your father down for the first time and telling him you are a girl. Yeah. I think this might be the right time to bring your father in. Ah, okay. Could we do that? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, because I think it's going to be fascinating to hear the story from this point on, because he now is included in the story from this moment on.

58:32There he is. Chris, it's a pleasure. No, no, it's an honor. It's an honor. Come on, have a seat. Come on. It's like a little family day out we've had so far. Oh, my gosh. Because Chris, do you still live in Bristol? Yes, just outside Bristol. Okay. What I found so interesting about Ella's story to this point is she talked about how much love she saw between you and your wife. Yeah, but you know, it's there, it's there. But then also how loved Ella felt. but yet she was timid to tell you and to tell your wife that she is a woman. She was a girl. So here's a stat. Almost half of LGBT plus young adults, so 46 % are estranged from at least one family member.

59:34So there you go. I mean, that is incredibly sad. Yeah. Right. So if we go back to that moment, okay. I can't remember much about the conversation in the room. It's more of a conversation in the room after me and Drew seeing you in the car in Weston. Did you know about me at that point now? No, not at all. Okay, so I was with Rosie, my friend Rosie, and I was driving my car and I was... Stopped at a roundabout. I stopped at a roundabout. And we came on the opposite side of the roundabout and sort of drove round and I looked and then there was Ella, dressed, never like I've ever seen her before.

1:00:21The wig and the make-up and the... It's all four. And then I just looked in my side and went, was that...? And he said, yeah, that's Ella. Or that was Evan. That was it, right. And it's just like a, I don't know, just a funny, a feeling I've never felt before, like shock, but just complete, like, didn't know what to say, just didn't know what to say. Yeah. In that moment, Chris, I'm imagining, so you have no idea whatsoever about your child's true identity. Yeah. Right. And now you're at this roundabout and you look and you see for the first time. It might as well have been on a billboard. That's the effect it had.

1:01:13You drive along and you see. And you just see it. You see it. Yeah. If you could describe those feelings, quite honestly, what were some of those feelings? Because when I look at this data and I see that 46 % of LGBT plus young adults are estranged from at least one family member, to me that sounds like the feeling on the part of one family member is disappointment, upset, you know, etc. So did you have any of those feelings? Only upset not knowing I could have been spoken to about it or I could have been approached. I would have been fine. But to find out that way was more of a shock than sitting down and having a conversation like this.

1:02:02Okay. Okay. Isn't that funny? Because from what I remember, and obviously our stories may differ, in my eyes you didn't take it very well at the beginning. and I was more scared about telling you than I was telling mums. Well, it's not, when you say not take it well, it's not like you coming home with a tattoo and you've kept it secret for six months. It's a little, it's something a bit more sort of, is that what you really want? Is it, are you like certain this is the sort of thing you want to do? It's that sort of, that was how it came to me. Are you sure you're doing this? Do you want this?

1:02:42Or is it just a phase? Or is it an experiment? That's how I felt, really. Yeah, but that phase, we did have a lot of rows. We didn't have the best relationship like we do now, didn't we? I maybe didn't deal with things very good, but initially when I came out and the first few months of me presenting as Ella were difficult. Instantly, instantly you wanted us to just forget the past and just say this is who I am now and just get on with it. But it's not as easy as that for a parent. We weren't ever involved in anything like this before. It was all new. It was like a bomb went off, basically. Yeah, I can imagine.

1:03:27You know, I think what would be helpful is, so I gave Ella this photo. So she gave us the image, but we printed this image, right? And I have another image. Can I show you one other image that I have? I want you to tell me who's in this image and what comes to mind when you see this image.

1:03:56So, Chris, you're looking good at that, Chris. You're looking good at this, Chris. All right, so if you could describe this image, what do you see what's happening?

1:04:13Well, it's just love.

1:04:20yeah just i don't know really um

1:04:32just have your times right okay which is now but

1:04:41yeah chris i'll tell you this one this this one's got you emotional yeah what what do you think's pulling at your heartstrings when you look at that photo

1:04:58I thought it was whatever.

1:05:05You know what is so profound? I think as a parent, I can tell you that. when you look at your child, at least for me, I have hopes and dreams for them. And I realize that they may not have these hopes and dreams, but you have hopes and dreams for your child. At that time, what were your hopes and dreams for Evan?

1:05:41um no just to be happy and just sort of you left acting didn't you yeah just sort of follow that and just be happy i don't care what any of my kids do as long as they're happy yeah yeah and so from that it felt like from that moment you entered a hard period of your life you know there were many many years that were challenging but ultimately we get to this place now yeah where you're set you know together reflecting back upon these with someone who i believe is incredibly happy now right in in her life so the dream has been realized you know but at that point especially then because I think a lot of people don't realize that was a different time you know there wasn't a lot of there still is not enough visibility around the transgender community today but then it was almost non-existent so at that time what year is that roughly?

1:06:47that picture that was 2001 did you know what the term transgender was in 2001 no no no so you know Chris this is where you and I are very similar because you know when I fully got introduced to the transgender community you know when that was when I met Ella yeah so I was I've been on the outside you know so I think we're very similar learn that. And when initially when I met Ella, I was, and even now I find myself almost tripping over certain words to not cross a line. How do you not offend, but yet learn as a father? How do you do that um just just a simple thing of referring to ella as she instead of he was it was hard in the beginning because for the best part of 18 9 sort of 17 18 years that's what you've always said yeah and you've said he or and to completely want to say something but i think i better customize this to not offending anyone but we would we'd be talking about a past but i'd have to refer to the past as a and as a she or evan as a she so it was a case you were you're tuning your mind to sort of not and in the beginning whenever we even mention that name you kick off yeah oh okay you would kick off and then it'd be a big big few big brow not physical but any pictures yeah any pictures that were around anyone come in that didn't know about it we'd all be we'd get a text or whatever get the pictures down get the pictures down so I'm coming back so we'd have to get all the pictures down and then and you're talking to this person and they said and then obviously we won't name names but there was instances where you would be talking and and they would say what was ella like as a girl what was ella like at school and then you would you'd have to think about what your answer because you could instantly get something completely wrong and then just think what are you talking about which i feel bad looking back now i remember my mum did keep saying you're gonna have to be honest you're gonna have to be honest and i was like no no no i got and they were amazing parents in the sense that they did whatever i asked but But, you know, also they were put in positions that they probably didn't want to be put in the way I was back then.

1:09:33It was just like, you need to call me her. You need to call me Ella. And I'd just have a go at everyone. And I was just quite angry at that stage in my life. So this stage is a pivotal stage because you're transitioning physically. You're transitioning at the same time. So during this process, Chris, I'm curious because, you know, you mentioned initially you thought, okay, maybe Ella's going through a phase, you know. At what point did you fully understand this is not a phase?

1:10:08The dress, the wearing the clothes. Ross is gay, Ella's brother. Okay. So I thought, because you looked up to him, you just thought, I thought, she just wants to be Ross. She just wants to be like Ross because he's trendy, he's cool. She's not cool. He's cool. Ross is cool. And I just thought maybe it's, I knew there was something going on, but I didn't think it was the transgender thing. I thought it was just, you were just going to be gay. But then the clothes thing, and I thought, well, if you've got the guts to do that, it's not a phase because even going to work, because you worked at the airport, didn't you?

1:10:59Yeah, just to do that. I mean, I think she's the bravest person I know.

1:11:07Oh. I mean, you think of what Ella and so many other people have gone through and the resistance. And I think that the power of this conversation is for us to help to destroy a lot of the ignorance yeah that's that's that that exists uh you know in the world it's a it's like bullying at school i mean if how kids do it at school now i mean that must be so brave yeah yeah i couldn't have done it no the same the the the same you know um because i i can imagine you know you even going to work so you were working at the airport yeah right you're going and you're now presenting as a woman. Yeah. What's the reaction?

1:11:58Oh, God. Well, I started the job as presenting as Evan, so they would already see what I looked like. I worked on check-in, so I was a check-in agent. There was protocols because of security and you have to go through security and I have my name badge, so we had to change that and I had to have a new picture. And, you know, they had to have talks of what toilets I would use so all of these things had I couldn't just come in one day I had to actually tell them and I was so nervous the day I think I had a few days off and then I knew that the maybe the Monday whatever it was was the first day that I was going to be going back to work as Ella um and it was yeah I don't know how I did it I was so nervous because people had already heard that I was going to be coming in you know different they were already prepared for it And I was told, right, you can use disabled toilet, not the girls.

1:12:49And when you go through security, you have to go if you beep to go up to them board the flights. If you beep, a male has to assert you in a private room. So I knew I was having this special treatment. But everyone's reaction was mostly positive. Everyone was really nice to me. Some of the passengers would be rude. But I still don't know how I did it to this day. You know, that notion of passing, though, and then also you mentioned that there's a, you mentioned 40 % of transgender women go through with gender reassignment. So was that, what was the reason why you opted to do that? And why do the vast majority not?

1:13:34More than likely, most people aren't ever going to meet a trans person, especially with what's going on in the climate now. Everyone wants to keep quiet and keep their identity quiet because we don't want to have to face discrimination more so than we already do. So I think because society's view of trans people, a lot of the time is just based on one person that they've seen on telly or that they know, they basically think that every trans woman has surgery so a lot of people will ask me have you had it done you know well I've talked about it so much on the show that I have a vagina that I don't think anyone needs to ask me now but there's so many other types of trans people we're not all the same and we don't all share the same journey and story so I don't know why a lot of trans women you know a lot of the time it's because they're scared of the surgery it's very daunting scary surgery my dad was with me when I had mine done and it was horrendous not just for me but obviously for him it shouldn't matter what's in between your legs it doesn't define you you're Paul like you are a man but whether you have a penis or a vagina I'm not going to see you any differently Chris you were there to to support Ella through through through the procedure yeah it was the first procedure I had out of everything I had down below then a year later my breast and then two three years ago I had my face done but my dad was with me for that first operation I was 20 2015 so yeah 21 yeah okay it was hard it was brutal because a lot of people had said from when I did start to research oh you'll wake up and it will be like euphoric like you'll be like I am a woman now and because you put that pressure on yourself that once you've woken up just what just because I've suddenly had you know a vagina done I'm going to feel more of a woman and I couldn't get my head around it so I thought maybe that's how I'll feel and I didn't I didn't feel that I just felt pain um couldn't even walk I couldn't walk it was it was graphic it was awful so the reality is and this isn't the case for everyone if anyone is watching and obviously having it done or on the waiting list best thing I ever did but I was so young and I hadn't prepared myself mentally for the pain and how life-changing it was and there was so much emphasis on you're going to wake up and feel like a woman I already felt like a girl anyway I've always felt like a girl having that didn't really make me feel any different so I was a bit let down from from it I'm curious though is so Chris you're with her the entire time what was your experience as a parent going through this process um on I think we got there the day before you had it done didn't you?

1:16:15So we just went there and just found a room and just went out and got some tea, didn't we? And it was a bit surreal, really. And then the next morning, I sort of said goodbye to you and you went down on the thing.

1:16:33But then I knew, as soon as I said goodbye, there was no turning back. It wasn't the case of, oh, I've changed my mind. I want to go back as a boy I knew that was the final thing so I thought it could either get 100 % better or 100 % worse and obviously it's all good now but at the time I thought if she wakes up and says I've made a mistake it's too late it's too late but there was no telling you any different I mean we didn't try and talk you out of it but we just said is it you sure that's what you want so yeah and I just yeah I just left her and went off and had some food and just walked about

1:17:22and I went back later and it was yeah she was just wiped out really completely wiped out she couldn't even hardly speak well you couldn't get out of bed could you but yeah it was that was when it hit me really I think it is and I knew that was only the start of it really it was not the like Alice said wake up with your bits done and then it's all plain sailing because it's not but it's the start if that's what you want it's the start it's a start but now Ella I have to ask you that I know I believe that it's around this time where another event happens in your life. So here are the specific stats.

1:18:12And this is alarming. And this is a UK stat. In the past year, over half of the LGBTQ plus young people, which is 58%, seriously considered attempting suicide and nearly one out of five, that's 19%, attempted suicide. This is significant. and this happened to you? So it was, I'd had my general reassignment surgery. The year later, I'd had my breasts done. I just was out all the time, hanging out with the wrong people, just going out and getting drunk. And I guess that strained my relationship with mum and dad, but especially my mum. We would just bicker a lot. and I was, you know, being intimate with guys and just, it was dangerous.

1:19:08I remember one day my dad said to me, like, I'm scared that you're going to be found in a ditch, like you come home and you've obviously had some one-night stand and it was dangerous. The way I lived my life was dangerous, but I didn't care. I was in this bit of a self-destruct state of mind and I went to Ibiza and it was like, I just went mad and I was drinking and I was doing drugs for the first time. then I came back and it really did hit me then and I just took loads of tablets from the the bathroom uh cabinet under the sink there was loads of tablets and I took a picture of everyone and I just took certain things put it in a suitcase and then I went to go to my car and the plan was that I was gonna obviously do take these tablets and then just drive into something Did you announce that to your family at all or no?

1:19:59You were just telling them goodbye, but you knew what you were attempting to do. Yeah. And you were saved by your family. My brother, really, who we didn't have much relationship then. So then, Chris, how do you – once – you know, I think this could be helpful for so many parents as well, is that when you realized this was happening, that your child was attempting to take their life, what do you do? I mean, what did you do? I mean, we won't even preach. We'll just say, what did you do? What were your thoughts? And then what did you actually action? What did you do? Well, I mean, we had a counselor come around straight away, didn't we?

1:20:43It's like 2 o 'clock in the morning, the same night. Yeah, my brother rang the crisis team. and we were just basically frightened to leave her really but we kept telling her how much we loved her but it was never enough. It was just never enough. We just, we just, yeah, we just wanted to help you but you didn't want to help yourself, did you? So how do you help someone who doesn't want to help themselves? Well, you just got, just be there for them and just reassure them that it's going to get better and it's not as bad as they think. I know you didn't want to know at the time, but now you can look back and think, obviously it wasn't the right thing to do, but, yeah, it's a funny situation to be in.

1:21:31You don't expect to think you could have lost your kid before you. You don't want your children to go before you. And then you think to yourself, is it something we've done wrong? We let her down. but I don't think I ever did or we did, me and mum. I think it was a lot of undoubted trauma that I had in the... When I used to do therapy, which I had to do as part of my two years lived experience before surgery, I didn't really use it the way I would have done now. I didn't open up. Like, I was just, you know, I'm Ella, I'm a go, I just want my surgery. You just thought it was a formality to go through to get the end result.

1:22:15And Chris, I said, like, what did you do? How do you do it? But what you just said is textbook in terms of how you hold space for someone, right? Because there's technically three ways that you hold space. One is that you allow that person to talk. So you listen to that person. That's one. Secondly is you validate their feelings. And then third is you don't try to fix, but you just make sure that they know that you were there to support them. Just doing that holds space for someone, and that by itself can help to change the dial. And then on top of it, someone from the family called the crisis center, right, which is incredibly important as well.

1:22:54So I think those things that you did, it may not feel significant, but it is everything, everything that someone needs in a moment of crisis. But I'm curious, from that moment, that was a very low point, right? it, how do you change it around? How do you make that transition? Because there's so many people who would love to get to that place of self-worth and happiness that you're in now. There's so many parents who would love to be able to reconcile with their child and have a strong relationship. How do you do it? You've just got to work at it and not give up. I mean, so many people get divorced now because it's an easy option.

1:23:34Say, oh, but it's not working, let's get divorced. But you just got to work at it you just got to work through it it's a it took time like like i said the fact we sit here now like you know we have this love for each other and this bond which we always had a love for each other as nothing's ever changed no but the bond i wouldn't say was always there and that we didn't have that closeness and my dad wasn't as emotional as he is now we wouldn't talk openly like we do now you both mentioned work you have to put the work in And can you give some examples of what is that work? I mean, clearly, I think going through these traumatic moments and coming out the other side, that's work in itself.

1:24:12Are there any moments that happen where you thought, OK, this is a moment of growth for us? And it could even be for you, Chris, like a moment of growth in that time. Just doing things, normal things like a family does. just going out and like a family meal and it's not because before it used to be you'd sort of you'd sort of wear things and I'd say go into quite a posh restaurant you can't wear that and you would say I'm wearing this is what I'm wearing and then you would go there or you're on edge and you'd think I wish you wouldn't have worn that but now you I think you consider you you now you say before i even say you say don't worry i've bought a nice dress my tits aren't gonna be hanging out so just relax so that's the moment of like it's sinking in a bit you know respecting other people yeah but before you said i wouldn't i'm wearing this if you don't let me wear this i'm not coming and it's like yeah and then you would just i would not come or you would do it and then it It would just be tension.

1:25:27Yeah. I would say, I guess I've kind of gone through a second puberty. I've had to get to know who I am and what I like and who I am as a person. And that does take time. Whereas most people go from like 16 to 18, have their fun, do whatever they're doing. And then they start to realize who they are. Whereas for me, it was like I went from being Evan to Ella. Right. And it was a bit like, whoa, I don't know who I am or what I want. And at the end of the day, what people got to remember is who are transitioning. It's not just a person transitioning. The whole family are transitioning. Yeah. With you.

1:26:07And what support is there for the parents? Well, we had none. We had none at all. This is something I want to fight for in terms of the government. We went to the doctors or a man who went to the doctors and asked and they said, well, I've not really got any information. Best thing I'd say is just go on the Internet. it so i if i was setting up something now to help say transgender people or children or adults whoever it is whoever it is it's the support for the people around them because if that person who's transitioned hasn't got the support it just means must be so hard the person who's transitioning if their family get the help they need they can see what they could be doing or what they should be doing or what you shouldn't be doing and that that process could help them and help everybody everyone yes yes all all over the board i agree yes so currently though you're saying that there's so you had no support no that's still the case yeah and that's still the case into this because it's one thing that i'd love to change is obviously nhs funding is being cut all of the time and so with me it is i got funded my surgeries i've got funded my laser hair removal and my therapy and there's some voice coaching that was all for me there's no current funding to give therapy to family uh spouses partners um family members or siblings of trans people this therapy is solely for them and even though i used to try and get my mom and dad to come with me so we could all i guess talk it would only ever be we'd sit in the way to me yeah they'd have to wait a way to room you know what's clear is i can see that this is both a passion bubbling in both of your hearts is to not just talk about this, but to ensure that the support is there for others going through this process.

1:27:59Chris, I'm curious. When you think about the fact that you are a father, right, to this beautiful transgender woman, okay,

1:28:15what does that mean to you? And the reason why I say what does that mean to you is because I think that there's lots of noise in the public. There's multiple sides. One side is you should be incredibly proud. You should be cheering from the mountaintops. There's another side that says you should be disgraced. How could this happen? How could you let this happen? And then you have everything in between. What is your experience?

1:28:49my experience is as long as Ella's happy I don't care what people say about me or whatever it's just I'm proud of what she's doing or done

1:29:04nothing else matters really there are some narrow minded people out there

1:29:13but hopefully they're a minority yeah so you just got I try not to read the comments because it's too upsetting sometimes so

1:29:29do you have a message to any any of those people which I doubt those are the people who listen to we need to talk but they just need to look at themselves and if that's all they've got in their life to to rid the corn make fun of other people and put other people down they must have a sad life must have a sad life and then everyone's here for you only get one shot at this just live your life yeah you know one thing i have to say personally and this must happen tenfold to you. Now that I've become friends with Ella, I find myself as the defender of the transgender community among my friendship circle.

1:30:21And I do have friends, and these are friends, and I mean, who will say, no, I said she. They said, no, no, no, you meant to say he. you know and i and and i have to correct them and even correct them to say this is not a joke like this is this is not a joke so if this is happening to me i can't imagine what's what's what happens in in you know what's happened in your social circles through the years yeah and the defense that that you've had to put up yeah you pretend not to hear things or see things yeah does it hurt yeah yeah there is so much I would call it ignorance but then also hate they hate because they don't understand it's easier to hate than it is to try to understand it I think that's the easy option yeah what is going to stand out to me when we walk away from these seats is when you talked about how proud you were of ella it was him saying that i was the bravest person that he's ever he's ever met i'm glad you corrected me because you used the word brave and that's what you said chris brave that's different so you're right so what i'm curious about is why just get it out there and doing it even get it up on the stage in front of, you introduced someone didn't you?

1:31:55It goes aloud, 50 ,000. I couldn't even, I couldn't do that. Did a little trans shout out. Yeah. In front of 50 ,000 Hooper. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just to do that really and just put yourself out there as brave. I mean there's people that go through life and they transition and they just want to be left alone and just get on with their life which is fair enough, that's what they want to do. But to do it in the public eye, and then obviously some of the things you say, people like, some things they don't, but to get out there and do it, it's just so brave. That's it, it's just brave. Yes. Does Ella inspire you?

1:32:43Yeah. Isn't that something to have your own child inspire you? Yeah. Yeah. and not to care what people think. Yeah. And then, Ella, how proud of your father are you? Thinking about how, you know, because he's had a transformation. Yeah, yeah. If you'd told me when I was 17, that point in my life which was you know not the best that my mum and my dad would be the biggest advocates for me I probably wouldn't have believed you like I know my mum and dad loved me

1:33:36unconditionally they loved me when I was seven and I know they love me now and I really want that for all the other trans and queer people out there but there was a time where I didn't think that would be the case and so my dad is literally my mom and dad and my family are walking proof that with time if you've got unconditional love for someone whether it's your child or your parent then love always wins yeah you know I get so many chills listening to you both talk about each other because this story could have gone in many different directions It's the love that you have for each other that regardless of the circumstance keeps you together and will always keep you two together.

1:34:23And I think that's something that is, that's all we want in life. You think about it, it's so simple. That's all we need. And it costs nothing. Nothing. Nothing. You know. Take no steel.

1:34:43I definitely want to just go back to support for parents of trans kids. What advice would you give those parents? Just listen. And just listen and give it time. It might not be what you want to hear, but just give them that opportunity to express themselves and just give them love, support. Yeah. Once again, well said, holding space. You're a master at holding space, Chris. I was trying to keep track through this conversation of the procedures. Yeah. Do you know all of the procedures? Yes, I do. Okay. What's the list? So, and I know the cost too. It's a lot to be aware. Oh, my gosh. It costs a lot.

1:35:36Can you give the cost? Yeah, sure. Do you know the cost, Chris? Roughly. Roughly, okay. Gender reassignment surgery is$25 ,000. I've had two breast augmentations, and they were about five each, so that's 10. So that's 35K already. Okay. Then I had a nose job that was five. $5 ,000 for the nose job? Yeah. Okay. And then I had my, the amount I spent on fillers and Botox over the years is at least 10 ,000. Over the last 10 years, I've been experimenting with fillers. I'm probably the most natural looking I've ever been. I tried to have as much taken out as I could. When we did maths, my lips were terrible.

1:36:21Someone should have told me. They did actually tell me, my parents were like, stop with the filler. But if you look at. You had the lip, what? I had a lip lift and a nose job. So altogether that was probably about 8 ,000. So I wasn't happy with having masculine features. And I didn't want to keep getting injections because it costs a lot over time. And I was like, I'll get it done permanently. I'll have surgery. So I had eight things and I had my Adam's apple shaved. I had fat taken from my stomach and put it in my cheeks and my under eyes. I had liposuction on my stomach. I had titanium in it implants put into my temples just here because I had really big hollow dents.

1:37:05Oh wow, okay. Yeah, so it makes my face more rounder and heart-shaped rather than looking quite gaunt, like a skeleton. I had a brow lift, I had an eye lift. An eye lift? Yeah, I had my hairline lowered, so a chunk of skin removed and sewed back up to make my forehead smaller. and then finally I had a forehead shave. So they shave your brow bone and your forehead to be slightly more curved than a man's, which is quite flat. Basically, it's facial feminization surgery, which is to feminize the face so that I don't have the masculine traits or features that, you know, men could have. I've done all of the small changes and tweaks.

1:37:47It doesn't sound small to change how I look. What was the total cost on all of this? Chris knows. Probably about 80, 90K, isn't it? Yeah, that's what it feels. Almost 100 ,000. Some of it was the National Health, which I'm grateful for. Yeah. But they're more strict now. So everything cosmetic I've had to do, I pay for. You pay for it. And you are done. You sure you're done? Yes, hopefully. Yeah. There's nothing worse than watching your child go for all that. Yeah. And then you get a picture sent through after, and it looks like they've been hit by a train, you know? Yeah. But one thing I will say about the national health, everyone's knocked national health, but they were brilliant.

1:38:30Yeah, they were. I know that there's so many private practices that want to do what they can to help trans people and transition. The reality is it's so expensive that most people can't afford to go privately. And obviously some people choose to do hormones, some people choose to have surgery, but it's just so expensive. And the unemployment rate within the trans community is so high because people don't take you seriously. People don't give you jobs. People don't give you a chance because of the stigma that comes with being trans or how you look. Yes. So I had this in the research. Transgender people, the employment rate is 49.2%.

1:39:11So the wider population has an employment rate of 74.8%. So you could see. 25%. Yeah, that is substantial. transgender people are 81 % more likely to be unemployed than cisgender peers and 66 % more likely to be on disability benefits. Yeah the people that are trans aren't going up we're just coming out so people are like god there's more trans people nowadays that's not the case we've always existed there's always been the same amount people now just feel more comfortable and confident enough to say it. And so where they're coming forward for treatment or applying to go to the gender clinic or the NHS, that list is then getting longer and longer and then funding is being cut.

1:39:56So I know the NHS is a long way to go, but they were amazing with me and my family. Yes. The government that we need to change, darling. Fair enough. Fair enough. So now it's time for a last question. You both get it because you're both guests here. So the last question is my favourite question. And this is it. You've had some amazing conversations throughout your life with many people. So when you think back to the most memorable conversation that you've had, who was it with and what did you learn? Do you know what I'm going to say? And I'm not just saying this. You said to me when we did Celebskidatum, it's gone viral.

1:40:38It's that it's it's that conversation we had where you said, Ella, I don't think you realize or it's not said how much how amazing you are and what you know, you hold your head high through all the shit that I get. Basically, that is a conversation. I've got it pinned on my Instagram because it does mean a lot to me that I think because of your support openly, publicly, a lot of people change their mindset about how I was viewed or how they saw me because of you and your kind words. and just somebody said it once it's not rehearsal just live your life yeah yeah it's not that's all you need I like it can I say this this is what really stands out this is my closing listening to you both talk you know we just listened to Ellie talked about all these procedures, right?

1:41:39And you said, I've had everything changed. But when I look at you two visually, you know, and I see you, you've had everything changed except... My eyes. Your eyes. I knew you were going to say that. Beautiful blue eyes. And I look and I see... I've got my dad's like, yeah. You've got your beautiful blue eyes. Look at that. And, you know, it's, and to me, I think it's almost poetic because, you know, you think about how you've always, you've always had your daughter, right? You've always, you've always had her. And what you've done, Chris, is I think you've shown this incredible resilience in fighting against this narrative, the script that many men have been handed.

1:42:31And I think you're showing love through strength and you're teaching others. You're teaching me. And through this conversation, you're going to teach many others about the power of love, but also how, what is love? Love is listening. Supporting. Supporting. Just being there. Just being there. Right. And you are an example of love. So thank you. Thank you. It was phenomenal to have you here. Thank you. if there's a part two we're not even inviting ella you're just coming to part two yeah but thank you so much for being here ella thank you so much you can you continue to teach me for some reason we continue to keep re-entering each other's lives and i think this is going to happen for the rest of our lives right i think we're uh inevitably uh attached to each other but i am happy about that you know i'm proud of that so thank you thank you for being here Thank you very much for having me.

1:43:30And thank you for having my dad. Like, to do this with him is just hopefully going to help a lot of people. And I feel better already for kind of saying certain things, and hopefully my dad does too. And this episode is dedicated to him. Yeah, before we all start crying again. I'm proud. I'm proud is the word of that person and my family, obviously. Yes. Yes. Well, we're proud of you. Thank you. Chris, we're proud of you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.

1:44:06That's Ella like I've never seen her. I've worked with Ella and known Ella now for at least four years. Never heard these stories. This is one of the things that I find so special about this podcast is that you have guests who are willing to come, wanting to come, not just willing, but wanting to come to share pieces of their life that they've held so sacred. Her father, Chris, we have to give it up for Chris. We always debate what does love mean? I think he embodies a version of love that is incredibly healthy, and that is, I'm going to hold space for you. But he's done that with Ella, and as a result, she's now emerging as this beautiful butterfly.

1:44:54If you could share this entire conversation with someone, who would it be and why? A friend who specifically called Ella he or him and said it to make a statement. I'm going to share this conversation with him. I think about there's so many areas of my life where I say, I wish I had an ally in this. And now to hear Ella outline, okay, here's where I need an ally. So now I know, okay, here are areas where I need to step up. So for me, it's now more important that I express my allyship through action. And I will, you know, I will. And I think these conversations help to add more motivation and inspiration for that.

1:45:45Many of the stories that Ella told us was about physical transformation, but ultimately it was this emotional, spiritual transformation that was most profound in changing her life. And I think that's a lesson that everyone can take, is that we can change our physical representation, but without changing anything inner, specifically emotional and spiritual, then the physical has no impact.