Michelle Heaton: The Truth About Popstars & My Hidden Addictions “I Couldn’t Stop”

29:33Let me ask you. There are people in that pool that I will never tell. that were never in the pool that never came out oh my god and you know there were no cameras that's exactly what i was about to say it never came out because we weren't overrun by social media back then and that's why it was fun like i'm not saying what we were doing was right right or um you know it was just it was just never captured what what happened and the fun that we had didn't go out because there wasn't people taking pictures of it or discussing it online or it becoming something that it isn't. Like, you know, it wasn't an orgy.

30:12It was just fun times. Right. But also, too, is in those moments, what about, you know, like managers and assistants and other people? Or do you feel like because we didn't have social media at that time, that even if someone saw something, it doesn't spread? Yeah, that's it. It was quite a close-knit community. Everybody knew each other. It was when pop was great. We did everything together. The radio shows, there was CDK, SMTV, Top of the Pop, Kicking. All of these outlets of where you showcased your music and you got to hang out with all the same guys. The last show of SMTV was where Kat and Dec got married and it was on Chums.

31:01and so they it was a theory this thing and they got married and mariah carey's their bridesmaid goodness and you've got hearsay on one side and you've got liberty x on the other and you've got blue and we're part of this this wedding congregation and we are just in that moment and then it ended and then sm tv ended chums finished we've got you know top the pops was coming to the end of an era and all these shows kind of like just stopped and dropped out and then it wasn't fun anymore um you know a lot of how we promoted on music was taken away there was downloading happening you know you didn't have to go into radio stations anymore and that was half the fun a radio tour and so the shift in the music industry ultimately i think ended our career as musicians and as an artist.

31:57Yes, yes. Navigating that transition in the mid to late noughties was difficult. Record companies were folding. V2 was sold. We went to another independent label and that didn't happen. And so it was like a vulnerable time in that moment. and then you know when Liberty X ended it just stopped like we just we were just together one day in the dressing room after a gig and a couple of us had been drinking and it was messy it wasn't one of our finest performances and we had become lazy and you know a couple of us wanted to start our family and to get married and we were all just tired of each other's bullshit.

32:45I know a few people were tired of our bullshit and it was vocalised, just the five of us and then we stopped. I think we had one or two last gigs to do and we fulfilled our commitments and just walked away from each other. And that was it. There was no big dramatic press conference and there was no big announcement. It just, we just thought nobody cared about us that much. So, like. Really? Yeah. Yeah. We were quite good at playing ourselves down. And, oh, well, nobody's going to give a shit anyway. You know. But do you think they did at that time? Looking back, yeah. Yeah. Looking back and knowing what our music meant for people and, you know, me and the two girls have been able to go out for the last nine years and perform as a three and still bring that music that we recorded all those years ago to our generation and a new generation shows me now of how important it was to those kids growing up.

33:50and we just thought nobody give a shit because our last song didn't do so well and then we were dropped and then, you know, our performances became sloppy and we just thought, oh, that's it. That's it. Yeah. That's it. You know, one thing about Liberty X, and I say Liberty X because you were Liberty and then was it some other group had Liberty or I don't know. Yes, some man group got a bit sore as a subject and wanted their name back, so they were Liberty. So I'm sure they've used it well. And so, yeah, they took us to court, you know. And then you become Liberty X. That's right. Now, I think what, and I don't want to even stir up more issues between you and Hearsay.

34:38Oh, no. But I... As I can see Mylene's picture in my eyeline right here. Because we love Hearsay here, right? But one thing I didn't realize was how successful Liberty X was, right? So Liberty X, you have now, so achieved international success. So the album featuring Just a Little, right, that single was the ninth best-selling single in 2002. Yeah. Right? That's major. Yeah. Also, the group, you had 10 consecutive UK top 20 singles. So is it, or should I say, am I correct in saying that Liberty X sold more than Hearsay? Yeah, that would be correct. Yep. Yeah, we did. We had three albums and we had a big, massive sellout tour.

35:37We won a Brit Awards. for a song and for two album awards and we we won an Ivan Lavella award and so yes so putting it frankly yeah ultimately Liberty X were more successful than hearsay I have another surprise for you what you ready for this oh god I don't know I don't know this is another picture this one is coming from this side okay oh no you have to close your eyes on this one okay okay you trust Trust me, trust me, close your eyes. Okay, and when you open it, I would like you to read this. You can open.

36:21Okay, I'm getting upset already. This is beautiful.

36:28Do you want me to read it out? Please. Okay, I haven't got my glasses. Okay. Dear Michelle, Who would have...

36:42I can't even read it. It's only got the word pop stars on it. Okay, dear Michelle. Who would have known when we first met at the pop stars audition in 2000 that we'd still be pop stars in a band together all these years later? We've shared so many amazing memories together, making music, touring the world and writing and winning awards. But some of the best things are the little things that we've shared. The normal stuff, like the gossiping in the car and the nights out in the town, or maybe not so normal actually. We've been through marriages, divorces, births, deaths, illnesses and all that life throws at you together.

37:22And the fact that we still have a great working relationship too is nothing short of unbelievable. We've been so proud to watch you in recovery.

37:33Over the last five years You've conquered some situations That most couldn't handle And that's a testament to the strong woman that you are You've built an amazing life with Hugh, Faith and AJ We love them too And feel blessed to be part of your life story Here's to exciting times ahead As bandmates and friends We love you, Jess and Cal

38:00What do those girls mean to you? I mean, like, we have been through so much together. And, like, nobody knows stuff about me than those girls do. You know, even, like, my husband, you know, my best friends, the stuff that we've gone through only us can understand.

38:32I'm working on a great initiative with ID Mobile and Mental Health UK. Science tells us that hearing a voice over a call can lower our stress, boost our mood, and even help us to rebuild connections. So they're asking you to ditch the text and make it a call instead. I'm going to admit something to you. I'm a chronic texter. I'm the worst person in the world to front this. You're not going to listen to me. Why would you? But you might listen to someone you know. So, I had an idea. Flow with me on this. For the next few weeks, instead of ads with me in them, I'm giving up this seat right here to those people who've been waiting for you to phone them.

39:15And for the next few episodes, you'll be hearing from them instead of me. So these folks will have just one ask. Ditch the text and make it a call.

39:29Hello? I've got to take this.

39:37I know that you have had a, should I say, tumultuous relationship with the press over the course of your career. If you could just almost give us the highlight reel of your up and down relationship with the press, because there are moments that I've read where it was just it was hideous. Yeah. What was done to you in the press? Yeah. There's always a member of a band that the press horn in on. You know, you had I suppose you had Jerry with the Spice Girls and you had Rachel from S Club. and you had Kerry from Atomic Hitten. Yes. And you had Lee from Blue. Yes. And you had me from Liberty X. And we were in the category of the fun one or the pissed one.

40:30And so that would be, you know, in my situation, the lack of confidence I have in my ability and my talent. and it wasn't necessarily the bandmates making me feel like that but I felt like that okay and it was evident with producers and and people who we were writing with and recording with that I was ultimately the bottom of the pile when it came to singing and that I'm not good for that so I had to find a place so finding an area of which i was good at which was going out and getting drunk or getting boyfriends um was a place i felt comfortable in because i felt uncomfortable with my talent this is interesting so are you saying that you were aware that this was the brand yeah that you were known for and you played it up yeah yeah well i mean and and willingly so because I loved doing, you know, acting the way I was.

41:36Like, I was young. I was single at the time. I had relationships with boys, famous men, boys, that were on my wall growing up. Wow.

41:51Like, I mean, I say this a lot, and I hate saying it all the time, but, like, Gary Lucy, for example. Gary Lucy. Gary Lucy. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I know Gary. I know. Did you date Gary? Yeah, well, so Gary picked me up in a nightclub, Gary did. Oh, my goodness. And we were in a nightclub, and I was like, oh, my God, it's Gary Lucy. And it was Gary Lucy. And I said to Kelly and Jess, oh, God, it's Gary Lucy. And I was like freaking out. Like, he's like my top three at that moment in time. Yeah, yeah. Because he was in, it was a show that he was doing, like the footballer. Yeah, Football's Wives and Hollyoaks.

42:25And it was just like, oh, my God. Anyway, he made a beeline for me. so I'm like yeah okay and we we had a few dates okay and it it didn't get too serious but we had fun and it just didn't work out can we talk about Andy yeah as much as you want to talk about Andy but here's I'm sure Andy watching this saying no don't talk about Andy yeah right now he's saying say no yeah I haven't spoke to Andy since we divorced apart from maybe one once Because from here's what from what I know about your relationship with Andy is that it was quick. Yeah. Quick marriage. A year and a half almost. 19 months. Yeah.

43:12So very quick marriage. Yeah. Tumultuous. Mm-hmm. Accusations. Yeah. He said, she said. Yeah. A lot. And then a cheating allegation. Yeah. So on the cheating allegation. Yeah. Can you clarify from your position what happened? Okay. Wow, no one's asked me that direct Oh God That's why we need to talk Michelle, we need to talk You're right in saying that the relationship was tumultuous It was always There had been cheating allegations Throughout On both parts Some true, some not true And That was kind of We both knew didn't know we just also wanted to be together it wasn't real love in that aspect but we thought it was you know well i did anyway i thought it was real love but the cheating happened when i was on holiday in marbella okay my cheating not the cheating my cheating happened when i was in marbella and i was out there on holiday with bianca gascoigne Nikki Graham um Daniel Lloyd you know the crew that you remember back then in like the early noughties that all went out you know there was the big brother lots and Callum Best and there was we were all there for an opening of um of I think it was the Ocean Club oh my gosh Wayne Littacris well yeah yeah so so yeah yeah yeah yeah So I was obviously drunk and I snogged somebody on the dance floor in front of the world press.

45:02Like, I mean, I couldn't have made it any more obvious. And we left together. We didn't go home together. We left together. And so I freaked out. Did you? I had a freak out. like um like a rule come down I think that's the easiest way of describing it I was absolutely freaking out and of course um you know by the time I got home Andy um knew something somebody from that party told him that I was seen on dental or snogging this particular person and um and then I told him we tried to work through it but didn't try and then I think there was maybe about a couple of months I can't remember a few months where we just weren't there you know And then when we broke up, I broke up with Andy.

46:11And I left and I moved in with a friend that I had made in Ireland. And Andy's a great guy. I don't want to say anything bad about him because I loved him. Can I ask a question on this? Yeah. So cheating, infidelity comes up quite a bit in the conversations that we have here on the podcast. And I think that there's a debate around whether or not you can love your partner and cheat on them. Right. How do you answer that? Wow. Well, I would – it's a tough one. Like my husband now would say, absolutely not. That's it. And I would now say, absolutely not. That's it. Right. But I did do that. Because I honestly, like, I don't know how I know how I've heard how Andy describes our marriage.

47:11And that's not what I thought it was. And I thought it was real. the love the love yeah and so that thing that happened in marbella was by no means a reflection of me wanting that particular person um i acted out okay and it was situational it was situational i acted out i shouldn't have done it i was drunk i was you know god it's funny what alcohol puts you in all these positions that that you wouldn't do if you weren't drunk oh it was just messy and I don't really want to go into too much because it implicates his family as well. And consequently, since then, like, I really have a lot of respect for his sister, Lisa.

47:59We've remained in contact. Yeah. So how about this? Let's not go into the messy piece. But how about having had that relationship, what did you learn about yourself that you then took into this next relationship, which is your marriage now?

48:18I suppose what real love is. You know, I thought I was in love maybe four times before Andy. Okay. Like I had real love at school. And then I met somebody towards the end of that relationship. I'd be quite needy. And that never serves anybody well in this industry when there's a load of people who just want to have fun and move on. Yes.

48:48Hello, my name is Daniel and I have taken this lovely seat, bequeathed by Paul, to tell my wife, Lydia, love of my life, fire in my veins, to call me. Welcome to ID Mobile. Please leave your message after the tone. I don't care if it's you at home asking me where the remote is. I don't care whether you're on your way back from work and you're literally calling to tell me that. I just prefer a call. It lets me know that you love me. Listen, Paul himself, relationship guru, they call him Oogway of relationships. He just said that phone calls will boost all the chemicals we need for extra loving.

49:28OK, if you remember, basically our whole relationship was built on phone calls. We started dating when you went to uni. And so we long distance for three years. We probably fell asleep on the phone together four nights out of a week, which was incredible. and really formed our relationship. So I'm just trying to bring a little bit of that love and spontaneity back. Let me paint you a picture of the kind of call that I'm hoping that I get. Hey, boo. How are you? Just a quick one. Do we have cheese? We've got cheese? Great. Thank you. I'll be home in two minutes. Even that, ooh, that would get me.

50:06It would just be nice. That would just be amazing. And it's 10 seconds. What do you think?

50:15Tell me if I'm wrong, but you were not necessarily saying that they're words that you want to hear, but it's how you want to hear them. 100%. You know what's so interesting, though, is I think you're married to me.

50:32Because I'm like, Jill, where's the remote? Yeah. You know, yeah, I'm super, super, super texter. And, you know, all the research supports what you're saying. You know, I'm just, I have a thick head. And so I was like, Lydia does too. So Lydia, she should just call you. I'd love that. And you know, you've inspired me. I'm going to call Jill at least once today. Come on. Listen, we'll shake him now. I'm going to call her. Yeah, I'm going to call her. You know what? I should call her right now. And of course, we're in partnership with ID Mobile and Mental Health UK. We want you to ditch the text and make it a call.

51:17Hey there. I just want to share a content warning. This episode includes discussion of addiction and eating disorders. If you or someone you know needs support, we've included resources in the show notes. Please take care while watching. Michelle, could you, as much as you'd like to walk us through your addiction, in college is when you try, do you try drugs for the first time in college? Their speed, yeah. Could you talk about your first time trying speed? I remember we were, I think we were watching a play from the older year and drum and bass was really big back then. Yes. And my friends had some and so I tried it.

52:05And wow, like that when when people say I've arrived, right, people use that term a lot. I don't really like that term because like like later on in life with with, you know, drugs and alcohol, like I didn't feel like I arrived anywhere. Yes. But that moment, that's the closest place I can be to to tell you I felt like I arrived. I you know my heart was pounding I felt awake I could do like study and have fun at the same time and and that was kind of course throughout the lot my life at college um along with a big battle with binge eating okay which I continued throughout my whole life okay and but speed was the first thing that I kind of noted didn't make me hungry interesting just to clarify for everyone knows is It's a street term, right?

52:56But it's an amphetamine, as you said, that accelerates the central nervous system to increase energy, focus, and alertness while also suppressing not just appetite, but it also suppresses your sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Of course it does. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. When did – do you feel like you moved very quickly from casual use to regular use of speed? I would substitute one for another. So I suppose after college, speed wasn't something that I went and picked up. I didn't call it in or, you know, it was there from friends. Was then ephedrine. Ephedrine? Yeah. Tell me about the ephedrine. So ephedrine is a, it's kind of like a speed, it's an amphetamine.

53:44Okay. And it was in a pill called exandrine. And exandrine is a weight loss drug. now I'm pretty certain it's banned now because it contained ephedrine so from speed I I wanted to keep the weight off and so I went a bit had a bit of research and then at like a local gym um one of those that had you know the the back the back door said what about these you could only get them from America and I tried them and it gave me the same effect that speed did but because it was legal I was like okay great it's giving me this this buzz this feeling it's not making me want to eat and um and so that was my next thing and then they got banned oh interesting what what year or how old oh maybe maybe 1920 maybe about then okay um pre-pop stars Okay.

54:40So I was 20, 21 pop stars. And then they got banned. But then on this back corner of the gym, they sold pure Effergen tablets. And so I then switched to Effergen, which was a pure form of what was in the Exanderin. Wow. And I abused them for many years. Wow. Yeah, yeah, for a long time, maybe about five years. And I remember I stopped because I got rushed to hospital one day and my heart had stopped. I felt my heart stop and it was going erratic and there was loads of palpitations and this was a couple of years after Liberty X started and I was with my ex-husband Andy at the time and I got rushed to hospital and they found copious amounts of caffeine in my blood and traces of, well, they told me it was traces of cocaine.

55:51But I had never done cocaine actually at this point in life. Okay. But that's what's down on my doctor's report. And so I was like, I don't get it. And obviously they were asking, have I done anything? And I was like, no, I haven't done anything. because I didn't do coke. Sure. I haven't done anything not thinking about these pills that I was taking. Right. So they were obviously laced with that and I know it sounds like a cop out but I'll tell you all like I did cocaine later on in life that's why I went to rehab like this wasn't that time. This was a moment where I was taking these pills that I was buying from a gym and that happened and I stopped.

56:30Interesting. But those pills were laced with cocaine. That's all I've took. Yeah. That's what I was taking to stop me from eating. And that was, Michelle, so that was five years. Yeah. So that means I didn't realize. So you were then taking pills through pop stars. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that. But you were not drinking. I mean, I was drinking, but I wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't at all my crux. It wasn't your crux. No. So how did you move to alcohol? alcohol was always present definitely and I loved going out and I always it's really weird like I love to hang over oh my god because I knew that it was a day of binge so my my addictions and my obsessiveness with food okay became so intertwined that I had like this this this thing going on whereby I would start a new diet every Monday um or a new diet pills or whatever it might be the cabbage soup diet you know the was a one-to-one diet or whatever it was whatever it was every single week and by Wednesday I'd failed I would binge eat and then I would go and get drunk and I'd go out and And then I'd binge eat on my, and then I'd start again and my weight was creeping up instead of getting, getting less than.

58:00Okay. And, um, and this was early in Liberty X as well, where I was starting to have that pattern of binge eating. And it gave me comfort. And I was outed by my manager at the Liberty X video shoot for Just a Little Biggest Video. Yes. And he said, you've put on a bit of weight. And I had, granted. And I knew I felt uncomfortable. And I was the only one of the three girls in that shoot to wear a dress. because I couldn't fit into the catsuit. And so I knew my worth. I knew I just needed to be hidden. I felt like that's what they were trying to do, to hide me. I'm sure they weren't, but I felt that.

58:56You know, I felt like they just wanted to hide me in this big oversized dress. But in reality, you know, that was the only thing I fit in at that time. And he said that to me. My manager said that to me. the first night of the first day that you put on weight, people are starting to talk. Maybe you want to think about getting healthy or lose weight. And what that does for any addict is you do more of. So I went back home and I ordered three pizzas and I binge ate. Did you that day? Yeah. So the day of the video shoot. Yeah. And I had another day the next day and I knew I would feel swollen. I just couldn't stop.

59:37I could not stop eating. Wow. And I have absolutely no filter when it comes to food. I still have that today. So the binge eating and the treat day, I will go physically all in. And it's hard to talk about it because when people look at myself, I know I'm not fat. And I've worked really hard on myself to be really happy and comfortable with my body. I love going to the gym. I love eating healthy. We don't drink anymore, obviously. But I still have that on and off switch. So that obsession over something that makes me feel good for that split second is still there. You know, I haven't got it with alcohol and drugs anymore, but I have it with food.

1:00:27And with food, it's very difficult to switch off because it's something you have to eat. You have to eat to live. Yes. and so working through that is ever so difficult because I have triggers and the triggers could be a piece of cake one piece of chocolate bar it could be another excuse like like my addictions with alcohol and drugs a party an event the cinema you know all of these things were triggers for me to either call it in or get more alcohol. And so now I have the same application to food. Okay. But then at that point, especially during that video shoot, you then binged on three pizzas.

1:01:10Yeah. Then do you consume alcohol or no? Not at that point, no. Okay. No. So it's the binging of the food. It's the binging of the food. And then you show up the next day. And I actually go back on ephedrine after that. Interesting. So you're back on the pills? Yeah, back on the pills. Okay. And they're harder to source, and obviously, because they're banned. But I didn't feel like I was doing anything illegal because it's found in diet pills. Right. Where you can still pick up in America. Yeah, but it's illegal here. But it's legal here. And you're a celebrity now. Yes. So I'm curious, as a celebrity, when you are acquiring illegal drugs, where do you get them from?

1:02:04Because... I mean, the ephedrine was quite easy to find from gyms. So still, but you're known, and then there's paparazzi. Oh, I wouldn't get it myself, yeah. Okay. I know, I know. like friends of friends and whatever. But I was so unhappy with how I had stopped. This is the insanity of it, right? I stopped because I have a heart problem, which I have today. I actually just had a small operation last week. I see scoring. Yeah, and this is fresh. So this is something that I had last week, which I don't make a big song and dance about, but I've just showed you the scars. I don't know where my thinking is in that.

1:02:45And then I put on all this weight and it freaks me the fuck out. And I'm being told to lose weight. I don't know how to lose weight properly. I need to lose it fast. And the only way I know how to use it is with drugs. Okay. Okay. Is this when you start using cocaine as well? Cocaine was part of my story later on in life, Paul. it was um it was around back then it had been offered I think I might have took it a few times but it wasn't something I was petrified of you know after all of this I'm petrified of drugs I'm worried that if I took that so I've never done a pill right I always worry that I'm that one person that gets that pill and I die from one pill so hand me a pill absolutely not but I would take effergen and it was it's just that's the insanity of addictions yes how you can validate and have acceptance over one drug or alcohol which is a drug and oh my god i'd never touch that and then a lot of the time those nevers creep up on you because you're not getting the same high you are from alcohol okay and then that's when cocaine became involved so so it went from efferogen to then alcohol and the alcohol you were using to basically numb yourself to go on stage was it it was um it wasn't so much numb myself to go on stage I just didn't know myself without alcohol so I you know like I was I was fun and I was energetic and and and at this point I looked good and I'm getting some good press and like it's in a good place.

1:04:34And so when I'm in that place, I'm like, well, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And at this point, I had no issues with putting down alcohol. I wasn't dependent on alcohol. There was no addiction with alcohol. Okay. And I say that because I know the difference now. I was a big drinker you know I couldn't perform without a drink other than obviously five years ago up to five years ago I don't remember ever doing a gig sober a big social drinker but I never went home and drank by myself and I didn't hide it manipulate for it and do all these things that I then went on to in later life

1:05:22cooking came around And when I had my children and became friendly with a community of wealthier housewives in my area. And so it wasn't to do with the music industry. And at that moment in time, I had a total hysterectomy at a very young age. and I lost whatever I had built up for myself throughout the years. With the hip? I lost all my identity, everything I thought I knew by myself. I had no idea who I was. How old were you as well? You were mid-30s, weren't you? 33. 33, early 30s. Yeah. You're 33. Yeah. You have a hysterectomy, and then you immediately go into menopause. Immediately. what is that like?

1:06:27What were the, almost when you reflect back, what was happening for you and how did it feel? You know, when I woke up, it's not like you have this severe reaction to not having hormones in your body. Like I wasn't instantly different. It was over a period of time that I think my husband would have recognized way sooner than myself, where I wasn't myself. I lost my essence, my craziness, my get up and go, my libido. I couldn't talk to my friends about it. Not because they didn't want me to, but because I told myself they wouldn't want to. I didn't want to talk to my husband about it because I didn't want to feel like I was unsexy.

1:07:17And I think the easiest way of saying it that I was just, I was numb for quite a while. And I just didn't want to get out of bed. I just didn't want to do anything. So whilst I wasn't clinically diagnosed with depression, that's the easiest way I can describe it, is that before I had testosterone, I felt in a mode of depression. Yes. And I couldn't get out of it. And so that definitely had an impact and still does to this day. I was really scared. And I was really sad. And I didn't like myself anymore. What were you scared of, Michelle? God.

1:08:06Just how I felt about myself, how other people saw me, how unrelatable I was now. You know, especially to my peers and my friends. the unrelatability stems down to the fact that all I had on my mind was menopause and how I felt and so when you're bringing that to a night out with your girlfriends it's not exactly a hot topic and I got my kick from drinking alcohol and I got it I really got it like I was licked I was it was pre-covid so i was definitely gone before then although covid definitely exacerbated the situation and my relationship with with alcohol and drugs and um and then i found that alcohol wasn't really doing for me what i wanted it to do anymore because i was drinking more of it and how much alcohol were you consuming um it wasn't yet at the point where i woke up and had to drink but i'd say a good couple of bottles a day of wine a few a few bottles of a couple of bottles of wine per day well yeah okay if you wanted to kind of like roughly estimate it um you know sometimes it would just be spirits and um but it wasn't colored with with cocaine at that point and I say coloured um it was it started to colour it because it was around in the area where I lives and there were other women doing what I was doing not working um husband was out all day um you know you either got drunk and took coke or you had a fair with a tennis coach at the gym you know who you are and um and that was life living in the area at that point or what i thought was life i thought there was no other option and and i and i like drinking and i didn't want to give it up and and i liked the way that cocaine made me feel um it gave me that i've arrived at moment that I had right back in my late teens that I got from speed from speed yes yeah yes yeah that alcohol wasn't giving me and and and so you were uh addicted to alcohol and cocaine at the same time it was it was it was yeah fundamentally it was and I think like the last two years two to three years of my drinking was my drinking and using combined.

1:10:57Okay. But I never saw it. Towards the end I could see I have a problem with alcohol. I knew I couldn't stop when I tried. I knew I was dying. I was in hospital. I knew what the doctors were telling me. People were saying it. Hugh tried to get me to rehab two years previous. I didn't understand fully what an alcoholic was. I didn't have any idea. I thought I was the only person that behaved like this. Nobody would understand. That's why I hid it. Alcohol was fundamentally killing me, but not Coke because nobody knew. So no one knew about the Coke. It was only your friends. Yeah. And they didn't know really the extent.

1:11:41Nobody knew the extent of my drinking. and, you know, and the pockets where I could get my cocaine from. Yes. And this part intrigues me because you are at this time, you are, I mean, you're happily married. Yeah. You have two children. Yeah. That you're raising. Yeah. You have a career now. Yeah. And you're, because you're working, you're gigging. Yeah. We're gigging off the back of the big reunion. Three girls go out. We do a tour in Australia. And yeah, we're gigging. We're working. You're gigging. Life's good. Life's good. You are a public figure. Yeah. Looking from the outside in, you have it all.

1:12:29Yeah. Yeah, looking from the outside in, yeah. And that's how I look at other people's lives, right? It's easy to look at other people's lives like that when yours is crumbling down. And nobody can see that. No. You know? No. But what was actually happening is it was all crumbling for you. Yeah. And I didn't realize how low it actually got for you. Yeah. And so you were – so how do you manage that all? Like, how do you consume that much alcohol, acquire the drugs, do the gigs, be the mom, be the wife, like, be the friend? How do you do it all? I was doing it all. I don't know. I was doing it all, you know, with the cocaine thing.

1:13:22It's like I only did coke when somebody else was doing it too. And so that's why I thought I didn't have a problem. So in my head, because I wasn't using it secretly, I was drinking secretly and manipulating secretly. But because I wasn't so much hiding it, like it was certain people knew I was doing cocaine. It wasn't an addiction in my head. I didn't see it like that because I could almost handle being an alcoholic, even though I couldn't say the word. I certainly wasn't a drug addict, you know. You know, you have this visual of what a drug addict looks like. And these women, you know, a couple of women that were not like that, was doing it recreationally, kind of meant that, oh, it's okay then.

1:14:24Because they're not like that. So we're not addicts. So we don't have a problem. And society accepts that. Did Hugh, your husband, know about the cocaine? No. No, but yes, no.

1:14:44He didn't, but he did.

1:14:50I don't think he wanted to admit it to himself. You know, I am... It must have been so awful for him. Because he could see myself. He could see that I was killing myself with alcohol. And I just couldn't see it. And there were moments where, you know, I got caught not doing drugs, but there was a rap or there was a note with some residue and I was becoming sloppy. And it was always because I had people over and there was a barbecue and so I would blame them. But he knew. He knew it wasn't them. He knew it was mine. And of course I wasn't going to admit it. That meant facing up to everything else.

1:15:47You know, admitting that that That meant that I had to look at my alcohol abuse. And I wasn't ready to give that up. I didn't want to let go with my alcohol. From what I understand, Hugh also, he didn't drink. No, nothing. He's never tasted alcohol before. Hasn't tasted alcohol. No. So how... Which is mad, right? I was going to say, how did the relationship, especially during that time, how did it play out? because he, as you said, he's aware that you are literally killing yourself from the alcohol. He's beginning to catch you out a little bit on the drugs. Yeah, I'm getting sloppy and I am, it's like I want to be caught.

1:16:33It's the easiest way of saying it. It's like I'm becoming sloppy, but I'm kind of subconsciously aware of it. I'm aware I'm sloppy. because if I was just like if if my husband or somebody just literally broke in on me and found me in this compromising position I couldn't hide but I couldn't say the words I couldn't ask for help and now we know about addiction and and since then it's very difficult extremely impossible to help somebody who doesn't want to be helped and so whilst I kind of wanted to be caught I certainly didn't want to be caught and I couldn't I couldn't say it out loud and I was so shameful of what I was doing that like my relationship with food where I get comfort when I'm punishing myself it was like that towards the end with drink and drugs I would feel so so negatively towards myself that I was in this situation and that I couldn't stop drinking and I was being sick and it was blood and I couldn't wake up until I couldn't get out of bed until I had a drink that's if I woke up I would often not go to sleep I was spending money I was manipulating people in situations to get what I needed.

1:18:06I was lying all the time. And so my punishment would be to drink more. And our marriage only worked because he was able to part-mentalise what was happening to me and focus on the kids and himself. So he was able to shut that off. And that was the only way he coped. And it sounds harsh. And I hated him for it. Because in my mind, I'm thinking he doesn't love me. He's not there for me. And so I'd push him further and further away. But the more I pushed him, the more I hurt him. Yes. And so he had no choice but to wait until I was ready. Yeah. What made him wait? Because I find the relationship between you and Hugh so interesting.

1:19:01because in many occasions, or should I say many times, when you have one partner with addiction, another partner not, is the partner leaves. Yeah, I know. You know, because addiction also lends itself to other pieces, and you talked about it, manipulation, you're lying to people, there's money involved now, right? And so many partners see all that, they say, I'm out, I'm taking the kids, I'm gone. Yeah. Why do you believe he stayed? he's a good man he loved me he saw that I was there when I didn't you know at the time I didn't say any of that you know I thought he hated me and and and we do this a lot you push when I say we I mean addicts we push away what's good for us because we feel like we don't deserve it and he was too good for me and I don't know I know now that there were conversations he had with with friends that I've asked not I don't want to know about them now and so there were conversations that he had with other people and my friends at that time while I was in the midst of it and I know that certain friends because they've told me that they told him to walk away.

1:20:24Really? Really? Because they saw what you were doing. Yeah. You know, and when you, we can talk about things like manipulation, right? What were you doing? Girl, winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cut-offs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang-on-the-patio sundress. those sandals you can wear all day and all night and you've had enough of shopping from your couch done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope it's time for a little in-person spring treat it's time for a trip to ross work your magic focus features in blumhouse present obsession when i have a crush on a guy no one knows be careful i wish nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world who you wish for Obsession is 96 % fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.

1:21:21I love you so, so, so, so much. It's blood-soaked nightmare fuel. What kind of blood you put on her? You have been warned. Obsession, rated R, under 17 on a minute without parent. Only in theaters May 15th, with special engagements in Dolby. If there was, like, you know how we had bubbles in COVID? Yes. I cleverly manipulated my bubbles to be people that I could drink and use with. Not all of the bubbles, but I cleverly manipulated why it should be those. Okay. And there was always a reason.

1:22:05if there wasn't a party in the garden a barbecue a pub visit or something like that every day that would be absolutely um extraordinary because I would manipulate things happening to aid what I was doing so that people wouldn't look at me as if it was different. So, um, you know, if there was a kid's party, say my kid's parties, I was have alcohol for the adults. So then it allowed me to drink. That's a great example of my manipulation, something good into using what I needed and and manipulating other people around there just to literally do what I want to do. I see it. That's a great example there.

1:22:56I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, I see it. Yeah. I see it. So at that point, it was all about you? Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, it was all about my needs. But how dare you say that to me at that time? Right. Right. Because at that time. Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, you say that to me. I'm fighting back. Yes. I'm full of rage I'm I am how dare you make me look at myself kind of attitude and what do you know Hugh like you've never drank before you know what do you know you haven't gone through the menopause or you know whatever I could blame I would blame so many things I would blame them I would push Hugh away I would push my friends away you know when they stopped inviting me out to places.

1:23:42I got so angry. And it was now I know, obviously, you know, looking back, it's because they couldn't, they didn't want to be with me while I was killing myself. Right. But they had to do something, which is why they're talking. Yeah. And so. But I just saw that as them going behind my back. Okay. Now, did they eventually try to stage an intervention? They did. Did it work or no? No. It didn't work? No. Why not? I took my way out of it. there was a guy from rehab there was my husband there was my manager and who is a very close family friend and there's three of them were there when I got home one day and there were videos on Hugh's form from my best mates which I refused to watch and they wanted me to go with this guy who I'd never met and go to rehab.

1:24:44Right there. Right there and there. That moment. And I remember I didn't like him anyway. And I had a sixth sense. And Hugh didn't really like him either. And I'm glad it didn't actually work out. But the reason it didn't work out is because I taught my way out of it. I promised. And at that point, I really meant it. because I hadn't tried to stop at that point. I hadn't tried to stop drinking. I loved it so much that I didn't want to stop or try. And so when I was caught out and this was a real thing and I didn't want the public to know, I didn't want anybody to know.

1:25:38So, the thought of the public knowing that I was an alcoholic or a drug addict was just too much. And I thought I'd never work again. But, you know, that wasn't so much my thinking then. Maybe that was when I went to rehab. but it was just fuck i need to do something now i i need i need to watch it i am dying like the doctor told me my liver's in a bad shape but at that point they hadn't told it i hadn't been told it was failing yet okay so i got told that i needed to reduce my alcohol intake not stop so i was given all of these little lights and and so i was able to well actually okay if i do what the doctor said let's do that I promise I'll work on it I want to be better and we kind of worked it out I said no you don't need to show me those sad videos I get it it's fine and just what I do with everything let's just crack on and I tried I tried that half bottle for about a day and the obsession was so on me that I just, that I think that was the first time that I bought a bottle of vodka and a nectar.

1:27:03Up to that point, I was, here's my stomach going, up to that point, I drank vodka, neat, yeah, sure, but like shots, so then I could excuse it. You know, it's done in a mixer. I take trebles. Yes. What's the point in having a double when you can have a treble? and so I could disregard the amount of vodka I was drinking at that point because it was always mixed but I think that that that week definitely after I started to try to get better and I couldn't I was craving alcohol and the strongest thing I could think of was was vodka and I bought a cheap flask of vodka and I downed it and it hit the spot.

1:27:52You know cocaine was around but it wasn't every day it was there sociably if I wanted it I knew where to get it if I needed it but that vodka yes in that moment became that next two-year relationship with the vodka bar oh well because I got that hit that I had been looking for and I was chasing that hit that I had that day. Every time I tried to stop, I couldn't. And every time I tried to stop, I was sick. I felt better when I drank alcohol. Like the absences of not drinking, whether it be an hour or a couple of hours, because it was never a day, I would feel physically sick. And when I drank, it steadied me and I felt better.

1:28:38Now that's a drunk. That is old school in the AA literature. All those old stories from Bill Wilson back in like 1944. That was a real drunk. And I'm that person. But of course I couldn't see it. But I'm now emulating the exact same behaviours as what my visual of an alcoholic looks like without being the visual. Yes. You know? Yes. And I remember there were many points in that where I just didn't want to wake up.

1:29:17I just didn't want to be here anymore. I couldn't see a way out of it. I couldn't stop.

1:29:31I couldn't stop and I couldn't ask for help. and I couldn't and I couldn't and I couldn't, all these couldn'ts and I knew I was kidding myself and so I thought one day I'm just going to die and I had no fight left

1:29:51like it's all well and good looking back and oh my god I've got my beautiful husband and my beautiful children but alcohol stripped me away of all of that it stripped me the ability to care and that sounds really harsh but that's the reality of what alcohol did yeah that that that's so uh i mean you can see how insidious absolutely alcohol and drugs are because here you are someone who you love your partner you love your children but dare I say in that moment you you love the alcohol they were not absolutely yet in that moment I loved alcohol that's it that's the best way of putting it yeah I kind of needed it and I got down on my knees and um I was praying to God and I was just I was just crying out about What then becomes the turning point for you?

1:30:55Yeah. It was a really rough week, this particular week. And I had a really bad night out in London with some friends and it became hostile between us. And it was just, I don't really remember much. Okay. You know, like towards the end, I was this drunk one day's the next. and it was all a big blur and whether I was going out or not, I would have drank corpious notes beforehand. And I remember arranging a couple of day stay at a friend's house and Katie Price, being one of my good friends, was meeting me there and we were going to hang out for a couple of days. And Kate's not great at keeping up with promises when it comes to showing up to things.

1:31:45she's either late or she she she just doesn't come and so I was like she's never gonna come I was like something else is gonna come along and I'll I'll just have a phone call with her instead I was like oh she's gonna be late and I remember showing up to my friend's house and I was I was in a rough way and um and I continued to drink that day and the host wasn't even drinking and and I was drinking everything that she had she had an array of things and I was like okay it's going to come soon. We're going to have a great night, you know, and, and she shows up. And on time. And, I'm like, great.

1:32:24We've got more drinking time. And, and, and no, no, no, that wasn't, that wasn't what I got from Kate. I don't know whether she had spoke to Hugh or whether she had a sick sense, but she had a feeling I needed help. Okay. And she said that it was a gut feeling. And she brought her book that she had written in the priory. She had just came out of rehab. That's right. That's right. Remember, she was on. We talked about it. And I was a mess. And I said, are you not drinking? She says, no, I'm not drinking anymore. And it was like the old Kate was there in front of me. But I was then this person that I don't even recognize.

1:33:09I see. And I recognize her. I recognize it's Katie. That's who I was friends with at the beginning in life and that's who I've known for all these years and this is the Kate when she's not drinking and I was like, how the fuck have you done that? And she's like, she read out all these questions that she got told in the priory and I answered yes, yes, yes to every single one of them while crying and drinking. And drinking. And she got the ball rolling in what would be then my last drink. So she took my phone off me and Kate rang Hugh and told him that she was going to get me an appointment to go to rehab.

1:34:02And I'm freaking out. Yes. And Hughes kind of met in one hand going, I asked her to do that two years ago. Yes. Why now? Why with Kate?

1:34:21And the clearest way I can put it now is that Kate had something I didn't in that moment in time, which was sobriety. Okay. And I wanted to know how she did it. And so that made me intrigued because she drank like me. Right? Right. And so if she could do it, maybe I could do it. It was the support I had around me and my husband and my friends was always there. Yes. But they weren't like me. so in order to kind of wake up and listen and see what you're doing you have to be confronted with the same somebody who's like you who's now living a better way of life and that is it could have been kate it could be anybody but i was never in a position where I was with somebody who was an ex-alcoholic or an alcoholic or drug addicts.

1:35:28Right. I was never with those people because the people that I drank and maybe used with put it down. Like, that's crazy for me. And from there, I had, it was a whirlwind of 48 hours. I had three guardian angels over that 48 hours. And I don't speak about the other two much. but Kate got the ball rolling yes my friend Jackie kept the ball rolling for me she helped me financially and supported me and my family through a lot of times and she's still one of my best friends today and I've been able to repay her in other ways and then I had Rochelle who's my bestie who took me into a home knowing the state that I was in, knowing I couldn't go back to my house for that night before I went to rehab because I would have talked my way out of it.

1:36:32Okay, that's why. Whereas at the time, Hugh saw it as me not wanting to go back, I think. But my friend saw it as you're going to convince Hugh you're all right if you go back home. Oh, wow. So you thought you just didn't want to be back home? Yeah. Okay. And I thought he didn't want me there anyway. Yeah. But actually it was my friend who saw that if I went home, she knew I would talk myself out of it, talk him out of it. And she took me to the Priory. She delivered me on the doors with her child in the back seat because she was, yeah, she was just amazing. And I took my last drink at her house.

1:37:16And it was so sad. because I stopped the night before. So when I knew I was going into rehab, I actually stopped. Okay. And I didn't drink that night. That was the first time in years. But I just thought, I've got a chance. And I stopped. And I remember I was so ill that night. And then the next morning, as I'm getting ready to go in the car to leave, I pick up a pink gin pink gin, I hated gin I didn't even drink gin when I was desperate but for some reason this shiny bottle of pink gin just and I saw it and I felt like I was going to die and so I downed it and her son walked in and said Auntie Michelle

1:38:09you're not meant to be doing that are you yeah and that was low

1:38:20and and then I got in the car and you know when I arrived at rehab when I arrived at the private it was difficult because I never got to say goodbye to the kids or Hugh and he was starting a new job at the time and it was just It was just the most unideal time in married life that it could be for me to have took four weeks out. Four weeks. Oh, four weeks. Yeah. Wow. But I was very lucky that he didn't open up to me the chaos that was happening, you know, with having to get my mum down from gear, it said to come look after the kids so we could go to work. And that call that he had to make to my mom, my mom had no idea of anything.

1:39:13That's right. She had no idea that I was this bad. So if someone believes they are facing addiction right now, they're battling, they're not sure, what would you like to say to them? Do you know what? I think one of the most helpful things that I had, and I did this after Kimari Rehab, was I think it was on the AA website or one of the affiliations for the 12-step program, because I follow 12-step program. Okay. Is there was like this really long questionnaire, quite a simple questionnaire. And, you know, the questions are things like, have you ever lied about how much you've drank? I mean I'm sure almost 99 % of us could take that box right yes and then there's like have you ever manipulated a situation to get what you want I think if we're all honest 99 % of us have done that and so and then and the questions went on and the question went have you ever hidden alcohol so that you can drink it have you ever drank it alone have you ever shut yourself off so they can continue the party and then and then these questions become more relevant to people who are maybe on the brink of alcoholism and before you know it you kind of tick them all that was what happened to me have you had bad consequences and the consequences for me were getting bigger and bigger daily can i show you something yeah that i think you'll love okay you ready for this oh gosh I think you're gonna love this.

1:40:50What's happening in that photo right there? Tell me about that photo.

1:41:01I think this was five days before I got released from rehab.

1:41:08And I was doing really well. And you brought the kids. because he had brought them a couple of weeks before that and it wasn't pleasant for them. And I understood that. Okay. You know, mummy's in this big hospital and... But I was doing really well and I looked so much healthier and these are on the steps of the Priory. For me, this picture just gets everything in my life that's important to me. And the reason why I went to rehab and just it screams just love, babe, just love. I think I just see a lot of love. Just a heads up, this next part includes discussion of suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we've included resources in the show notes.

1:42:07Please take care while watching. With the hysterectomy, there's someone very close to me who is going through trying to figure out if a hysterectomy is the right thing for her. Okay. And I'm involved in this process. So from what I know now is that when you have that removed, you're talking about overnight testosterone, progesterone, estrogen stops. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And while that was articulated to me, I didn't understand it. Sure, sure. I didn't think about it. I had just... So timeline-wise, I knew I was BRCA2 positive, which carries an 80-85 % risk of breast cancer and 30-40 % risk of ovarian cancer.

1:42:59I was pregnant with Faith when I found out I could have it. And then as soon as she was born, the midwife in the hospital said, do you have any, you know, have you inherited any genetic disorders? And I remember my dad saying, oh, I might have this from him and put the letter away, didn't even think about it. And she looked at me stony and just was like, you could have passed that on to your daughter. You really should think about getting tested. This is the BRCA2 variant. Sorry? This is the BRCA2 variant. Yes. Okay. Because also, before you coming in, and I was doing my research, I had no idea about the BRCA1, BRCA2.

1:43:44Okay. Yeah, and I find this to be fascinating. So, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but we all have BRCA1, BRCA2. Yes. But there's a variant. Uh-huh. And that variant, if passed on, then it dramatically increases. That's correct. The likelihood that to a woman. Mm-hmm. That these cancers are more likely. Yes. And they also take into consideration at what age the other women in my family had these cancers. So you're not just tested randomly. You know, I was offered the test because my dad had the test after his mum died of herbarian and breast cancer. And her mum also had them. I see. So there's a direct link.

1:44:31I see. And that's how I got offered the test because my dad was positive. and so I decided to go for the test. Faith was a couple of weeks old and I remember me and my husband, Faith was just a baby and we went to get the results and it was positive. And before she even finished her words, I had already decided what I was going to do if it was positive. I already knew it was going to be positive. Of course it was. I was like, yeah, of course I've got it. Not like a poor me attitude, but like, of course I've got it, you know. Yes. And this is just, this is another thing. And so I was like, right, when can I have my double mastectomy?

1:45:29And so literally put the emotion in track with that. Like, obviously, I discussed it with Hugh, but the risks were really great, especially at my age. They can't tell you what to do. They can recommend what you should be looking at. But the risks, if I can just underscore, because this is also, I think this is such important information for everyone, is that so a person who inherits BRCA1 or BRCA2 variant has a 50 % chance of passing that variant on to a child. That's correct. Right. And then the BRCA variant gene, it increases your risk of breast cancer between, of getting breast cancer between 50 and 90%.

1:46:13So 50 % to 9 % higher than people without it. Yeah, and we're already living in a world where, you know, so many people are affected by cancer. Yes. And then on top of this, one in 400 people have the faulty BRCA1 or BRCA2 genes. So I can now understand the position that you're in. Immediately you find out, you think, I'm going to have a mastectomy, which is the removal of both breasts. Yep. But now, did you consult with anyone? No. No, didn't talk to anyone? No, I mean, obviously, like there was pamphlets and when they told me about it, they talked through my options. But I was very, you know, I was visually prepared for just this.

1:47:11Let's just get it done. This was before I had AJ, my second child. And let's just get rid of the risk. Like, I'm in that emotional just-given-birth moment where I'm looking at Faith and I'm thinking, first of all, I could have passed it on to her now. And also, I don't want her as a young child to go through watching her mum, what my dad did with his mum and so forth. What I looked like after it was in no way a talking point of the procedure. It was in no way. I mean, can we spend a moment on that? Because I understand the risk that you're calculating, and I'm not a woman, so I can't fully put myself in your shoes.

1:48:01But for someone who had placed so much value in external validation and how her body looked, to have a mastectomy seems to be a major decision. at the time I think I was you know there wasn't a career anyway you know at that point I was being a mom and I wasn't gigging there wasn't any Liberty X girls or anything like that at that moment in time and I think I was just in a content happy place but overruled by emotion because I've just given birth that I just made it on an emotional decision. Okay. And didn't think about the consequences. And I know I definitely made the hysterectomy on an emotional choice and I definitely didn't think about the consequences in that decision.

1:49:00I knew that going in with the double mastectomy that there was a risk that I would wake up without anything. Had they found anything in their, like, you know, cancerous cells or anything at all that they thought that they needed to, you know, further investigate. So I knew that there was a big risk there. Okay. But what they did was they were able to reconstruct my breasts. What they used was a small implant and they used something called Stratus, which is kind of like, what's the best way of doing it? Like made up flesh is probably the best way that I could describe it. so it's they make flesh like substance because after the mastectomy double mastectomy there's nothing there it's just the skin right so they have to build up around this implant you can't just put an implant in without having any flesh around it and so they were reconstructed and so I woke up with what looked like breasts and yeah so I mean you know that was that was done and I was like okay I didn't talk to anybody Faith was young cracked on you know had the had the scars there and um I had no feeling in my breasts I didn't even think about the consequences of breastfeeding if I had another child um I had it done and then And within a matter of months, the opportunity for Liberty X to be reunited for the big reunion came along.

1:50:41And then I was back out and tour. Yeah. Wow. So when you had your hysterectomy, did you talk to anyone? And were you aware of the consequences of it? I was me and my husband were looking at having it done and what options that we had one of the options was keyhole surgery to get rid of just the ovaries which was what was going to happen and I remember we were we were deciding whether to try for any more children or go ahead and I think like I had you know just I was just so fearful I didn't know which way to turn anyway we were we had a moment on our couch at home me and Hugh one moment and we actively were trying not to get pregnant because I was on tour things were going great I had a Christmas tour going um we we we made every precaution necessary to not get pregnant and I found out I was pregnant two weeks later where with AJ and completely unexpected very blessed to have got pregnant so quickly both were, Faith was the first day trying so very blessed and we saw it as a sign just to calm things down for a bit and have this next child and then maybe look at getting it done and so then I went into plan mode which is what I do and just plan things out.

1:52:26I knew when AJ was coming, you know, I had to have a C-section because I had an emergency C-section with Faith because of my heart. Okay. And so we didn't want to run the risks. So Faith became a C-section because of the risks involved. And so then that was told that's what I have to do for AJ so that I knew when I was having him, I knew what date. And then six months to that date, I had booked in my hysterectomy. And so I knew even before AJ was born that that was our plan, that was my plan. Getting this done, getting that done. And that's kind of how I dealt with things. And I had a really rough time with AJ.

1:53:11They put him on my chest to nuzzle and I couldn't give him any milk.

1:53:18and you know what the most natural thing in the world and I hated breastfeeding faith anyway so I was like it's not a big deal but in that moment I totally forgot that I couldn't breastfeed then he starts crying and I'm like oh fuck I can't give him anything and then he you know he was refusing the bottle and it was different and it was really hard. And he gets sick, he gets meningitis. And he was only six weeks, I think. And I don't want to say, oh my God, I blame myself, but I can fundamentally blame myself. I can't fundamentally blame myself. So with meningitis, it's an infection of the protective membranes around the brain and the spinal cord.

1:54:18And if not treated, it can cause sepsis or permanent damage to the brain and nerves. And now I can connect it with your health history, thinking that you are in part, which you know you're not. you know you're not do you still feel this way today

1:54:51Michelle do you do you still feel this way today

1:54:59I mean we'll never know right that's the thing like you can't tell me I wasn't okay right Well, can we unpack something then? What I feel like you are saying here is that you feel as if you were a cause to this, you know, to the meningitis that AJ had, right? but do you also realize you are the cause of the life that AJ had do you know that do you realize that no I think

1:55:53you know when you become a parent you question every day right yes like I constantly question myself and aj's now like he's coming to himself like he's flying um but he has he has dyslexia as well and he's got uh he wears glasses although he does wear contacts now and so all of these little things that has occurred in little aj's life yes um um okay I understand it doesn't doesn't bear down to oh I couldn't give him my breast milk I I get that I do understand the difference however the meningitis was more likely to be a cause of these other things and he got meningitis because he had a weak immune system at which I could not give him ultimately the right vitamins and minerals from my breast milk because I had chosen to have my breasts taken away.

1:57:00And that's where it stems from. And you chose to have your breasts taken away so that you could be alive for your loved ones. And I get that. Yeah. But it's easier to blame myself than feel pity. Yes. And I see a pattern of blame throughout your life. But I think grace is such a powerful, misunderstood word. Right. And it's one of the most compelling, important things that we can give ourselves. And I think the question, the big question that you have to answer, and let me ask you this, is when you decided to have the mastectomy, let's go back to that moment. What strikes me is you said you didn't consult with anyone, right?

1:57:56Did you do the best you could at the time with the information you had? yes yes then you give yourself grace that's it you did and I know you did do you know more now absolutely are you more aware of consequences are you more aware of what you could and couldn't do absolutely today But at that moment, you did the best you could with the information you had. And for that, you give yourself grace. Thank you. And AJ and Faith right now, how old are they? AJ's 12 and Faith is 14. Right. They are 12 and 14 thriving. Yeah. Can I give you another surprise? Oh God, I don't know if I can take any more.

1:59:03I want you to take a look at this. Okay. Hi mum, we're so proud of you and everything we've achieved over the past five years. You're the best mum I've been. Love hanging out with you. And even though you're crazy, she's just gawd in you. We love you all. Love you. Bye. Oh, my God. Oh, they are so cute. I love it. They're like auditioning for a role on a soap opera. They've taken that request very literally. I can see that. You know, I'm looking at this and I'm saying, you know what, they are actors. Yeah, they are actors. That's what they do. They are actors. I mean, AJ, he's come on so much.

1:59:45Look how life can change. Yeah. You know, look how beautiful life can be. This is a big week for you. It is. Yeah. Yeah, I turned five years clean and sober. There you go. This week. Thank you very much. Yeah. And five years ago, I understand, Hugh wrote you a letter. Yes. And this is you entering the Priory. Yes. From what I understand. Yes. And that had a profound impact on you. Yeah. Yeah. and Hugh has written you another letter. This is it. And I'd love to read it to you if I could. Yeah. Because I remember that letter he did in the Priory. And it's heartbreaking that I become that woman. So this is what he has just written to you.

2:00:40Okay. Okay. Michelle, five years ago, I wrote you a letter from a place of fear and pain, hoping you would find your way back. Today, I write from a place of pure pride and love. You faced every demon and every challenge, rebuilt trust, and given our family back the warmth we'd almost lost. I've watched you come back to the woman I always knew was there. resilient, kind, a little crazy, and an incredible mother. Our kids look at you now with admiration, knowing their mother is the strongest person in the room. You didn't just overcome addiction, you reclaimed your life, and you've made our life full of love and happiness again.

2:01:36Every day, I'm grateful for the laughter we share, the life we live, and most of all, for the woman you've never stopped being, my soulmate. We love you endlessly, and we're so proud of you. Love. I love how he ended it. Is it your twat? What's it say? Look at this. Your twat. Oh, my God, he did that. I call him a twat every day. Oh, my God. Oh, you do. that's the kind of relief here that we have he's a right twat he never puts a seat down he's a twat that is your love name for him? yeah that is so true I didn't even think about it but my love language for Hughie you're a twat oh my god how beautiful is he?

2:02:33I love that either that was a big typo so either I find him funny He's going to be devastated. I'm going to give this to you when you leave. Oh, amazing. Thank you so much. How you like these gifts? Not bad, right? Yeah, the gifts that keep on coming. And I mean, right now, I can't see straight. So all of the emotion and the tears have swollen me right up. I tell you, it's been a lot. Yeah, it has. So we have gone on a ride, haven't we? Wow. Are you ready for the final question then? Oh, gosh. Go on, then. Go on, go on. There's one more question. He's there. Do you want one more question? What do I want to eat?

2:03:11Oh, and that does me. I'm starving. Yeah, I know. Are you hungry? That's the question, though. Yes. I'm always hungry. All right. The question is this. Everyone gets it. You've had, you definitely, Michelle, have had incredible conversations throughout your entire life. Which one stands out as the most memorable? Who was it with? And what did you learn? Oh, my God. the question is you know who's what's the most important conversation that you've had you know other than like the obvious like with my kids right about my my alcoholism and my husband about what went on other than that kind of stuff what's been the most impactful and what have I learned from it then I would wholeheartedly say this today like I've done podcasts before I've spoke openly about things and um But there's been moments in here that I didn't even think, hadn't even acknowledged or spoke about or felt comfortable to.

2:04:17So being in the presence of someone who's made me feel comfortable has allowed me to open up. And that's not often. You know, I'm comfortable with my husband. But I wouldn't just, you don't just sit there with your partner and have really deep, meaningful conversations all the time. You very rarely do. There's not enough time in the day anyway.

2:04:40And I think what I've took away from this and what I've learned is that it has been a colourful life.

2:04:50And there's a lot that I hadn't realised that I hadn't dealt with. And what that might look like in the future, I need to look at myself. and um and also just how blessed I am like it you know all these things that we've listed and all the things that's going on with my heart and whatever you know like I am I ultimately have come away from this not feeling poor me like yeah I've had a shit show but like just how lucky I am I I got to date Gary Lucy and I got to be a pop star and I got to marry the man of my dreams and I have 2.2 children and I've got two dogs, I've got two Labradors I've got a beautiful home, we've got a gym in our garden and I'm in a relationship who fully supports me and who still looks like Paul Walker and he's gorgeous and I get to do this amazing thing like I'm so lucky like I know I am I'm so lucky and all these things in life and I say it to people who have gone through tough times you know they're all meant to teach you something and it's hard to take you on advice isn't it so like I can say that to someone and make them believe it and then I'm like what's the meaning of that yes however I do believe everything happened for a reason that's one thing I do believe in I believe in those God moments I do believe in a higher power whatever that might look like um not a religious god per se but as a mother nature as a fate everything happens for a reason in that order to make you the person that you are today and um i believe that i was able to unearth some of those things today um because of what's happened in my past yes definitely and i thank you for that i tell you i am honored by what you just said and I will just add one thing you talked about how rich your life is because I was I was telling you how how I consider your life to be a rich life and all these incredible relationships that you have but you are also loved by us thank you you know what I mean you you are loved and adored by us and we all want you to continue to shine your light thank you so much yeah thank you yeah it's been incredible conversation i yeah it's it's been a lot it's been amazing it's been emotional and um i want to thank you for getting some things out of me that i didn't think i needed um but also you show me those little things right the surprises like it whilst i've seen that have thought of before and I've seen that photo before, you know, the words that they express in the letters, especially you know, Kelly and Jess and Hugh.

2:07:55Yes. You don't, even if they say that every day you don't hear it. Yes. Well, guess what? You get all of these. Yay! You get all of them! Ah! I can't wait to ring, oh by the way, Jessica from Liberty X adores you. Oh my goodness. I'm sort of Kelly. Oh my gosh. But she wanted me to specifically say she loves you. Oh my goodness. And everything that you do. So I promised her I would say that. Well, I greatly appreciate it. I absolutely adore Michelle. I knew I would. I may not have had the exact struggle. I've had the exact dilemma or friends and family have. And so to me, she's such a rock star.

2:08:39And what I mean by rock star is, is that she was a rock star. You know, she was, she was a pop icon and continues to be a pop icon, but she's gone through so much turmoil but become better as a result. That, to me, it's beautiful. Now hearing about her life, you know she's had some of the most challenging, therefore profound, conversations. And for her to say this is one of those among those many is...

2:09:20I can only feel honored, you know. And I think it speaks to everything that we do here and we try to do with the podcast. And hopefully people who watch will take this into their lives, especially with it being Mental Health Awareness Week. It's so important that we have these conversations. It's so important that we learn to hold space for our loved ones so that they can feel heard and they can feel seen and that's what eventually helps us to feel whole. I walked in on my ex with a famous person on my birthday. My life literally just broke apart very very publicly. Who was it with? That'll definitely get your lawyers in a I'm gonna leave the world, I'm gonna leave the world And it was overnight fame, selling millions of records Music industry is the wild west I've been screwed over by agents, managers, stole the money So who do you trust at this time?

2:10:19Own each other, and it was heartbreaking because I didn't want it to end Can we talk about relationships? Okay, let's go there I asked him why he wouldn't sign the prenup I was just crying my eyes out the entire wedding Why was the divorce so contentious? I was like, just please don't take my money. He just pushed this little post-it note across the table with the figure he wanted. Let's talk about Simon, your new man. I had a new lease of life. At what point did you feel as if this could be my partner? The image of my baby floating down into the dark will haunt me till I die. Every year, it felt I was pregnant, and every year I lost a baby.

2:10:55It's just torture. So many women don't get to hold their babies In order to make change, it doesn't happen in clinics. It happens in Westminster. Your advocacy has resulted in you having an MBE. Mylene, you are a national treasure.