Nadiya Hussain & Big Zuu on The Power of Representation

0:00Nadiya Hussain:Welcome to We're Talking. We're joined by Big Zuu and Nadiya Hussain to talk about what it means to live as Muslim in the UK today, in the public eye, in private life, and in a society where misunderstanding can so often shape the narrative.

0:29Nadiya Hussain:I've been in television here in this country for seven years, all seven years that I've been here, but then previously in the U.S., and there's a big difference between the television industry in the U.S. and the U.K., big difference. We're not where we need to be in the U.S., but we're much more diverse than we are. Yeah, naturally.

0:49Big Zuu:I mean, that would make sense. I come from music, which is way more diverse as an industry. Because naturally, music is open to anyone. So, yeah, your label execs might be of the same as telly, but people in positions of power of music are diverse. There's women, there's men, there's people from different races, different genders. telly is completely different. Telly, I've entered the telly game and I'm like, whoa. Big Nasty opened the doors for me, which I never thought would ever be a thing. I never thought Big Nasty, the grime MC, would be the person that opened the doors for people like me to get into television.

1:29Big Zuu:Because Nasty opened the door for me, that means I can go open the door for other people. Yeah, exactly.

1:33Nadiya Hussain:Toni Morrison, one of my favorite writers of all time, she talks about how what freedom is, is helping someone else become free. Yeah. Right. And it seems like that's what's happening. Because I heard you say that you formed a production company.

1:48Big Zuu:Yeah, yeah, I got a production company.

1:49Nadiya Hussain:So what's the focus? What's your goal with the production company?

1:52Big Zuu:The main thing for what we call Big Productions, which is the easiest name of all time, which is hilarious. I could have been a bit more creative. Big Productions, I built it one type ownership. Because I felt like when I was making my show Big Eats, I was coming up with all the ideas. not all the ideas in terms of like I flipping created the show but I came up with a lot of it is based off me it's called Big Zoos Big Eats right a lot of the essence the flow the ideas they stem from who I am as a person but I know ownership over the IP over all these little back end bullshit things that you don't care about when you first get into telly because you just want to present but you start realising whoa whoa I'm not I'm not I'm not the most important person in this room right now the exec is the commissioner is they get all the applauded they get all the enjoyment I as a talent yeah I get I'm lit but they're actually the G's the exec producer and the commissioner they're the ones that are winning how can I be with them and it was big Nasty's team that told my manager you should start a production company because that's what they did so Nasty gave me this advice to go start a production company so I did but then I started realising how do I give people from different backgrounds opportunities in telly which goes back to me being a youth worker, raising aspirations of young people.

3:11Big Zuu:That's been the common theme. Yeah, throughout my career. First season, everyone was white. Only black guy was a runner. Season two, we get a black director. By season four now, completely diverse. Service producers, a black woman. I get a black woman to come be a director. Camera ops, soundies. And then this is the point where I started to realize it's not just about color, it's about class. Right, right. So then it's about hiring people from different classes. So then I get some working class people in the show. And then I started realizing, okay, it's not just about race and class, it's about gender as well.

3:49Big Zuu:So getting women, like getting a female director, getting a female series producer.

3:54Nadiya Hussain:Just the representation is important because I tell you, my son, my youngest son, he saw you. Yeah.

4:01Big Zuu:He was like, oh, wow, I could do this.

4:02Nadiya Hussain:that means I could cook too because he loves he's always in our house cooking up things he makes me coffee we call him the barista we call him the angry barista because he's always mad with it you know he's very Jamaican

4:12Big Zuu:he's very but

4:14Nadiya Hussain:it wasn't until he saw you on TV where he thought

4:19Big Zuu:you know what I can actually do this and there's so much power in that it's bad bro I never realized how much of an impact I have in that way I grew up watching Simon Rimmer Gordon Ramsay like James Martin like classic old school white brothers who I got love for they're my G's like I'm actually friends with them in real life I grew up watching them and I was inspired by them but not everyone is inspired by them not everyone has infinity to them so you're missing out on inspiring all these young people to get into the kitchen and cook because they don't feel represented and that's what TV has the chance to do the power to do is to inspire people to get into things that takes them away from the rubbish they're doing right sometimes this country complains about ethnic people or people of color getting into the wrong lane or doing bad things or going down the wrong path.

5:10Big Zuu:But if they don't have role models and they don't have people to inspire them, what do you expect?

5:16Nadiya Hussain:Vax, how do you, being aware of all of this, and you have a career that's growing, like you've already achieved incredible amount, but it's clear that you're still just like you're just taking off, right? So how do you manage public perception as well as your personal faith?

5:33Big Zuu:It's tough, bro. I'm not the best Muslim in it. I always admit it. Sometimes I do go off track. Sometimes I do drink alcohol. Sometimes I do things that are wrong. And I repent, and I repent in my own way. I always remember, I always tell myself, I'm a human. I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm not going to be perfect. I'm going to get things wrong. But thankfully, I'm just doing a lot of things right, right now. I mean, right now, I saw that 30 % of Brits feel as if Islam is a threat to British culture.

6:05Nadiya Hussain:And most of that sentiment is held by middle to upper class.

6:11Big Zuu:Yeah.

6:12Nadiya Hussain:But then at the same time, you have 90 % of Muslims in this country have felt an increased threat on their lives since 2024, in particular. To me, it feels incredibly sad both ways. So you being a Muslim man on television, right? What's your thought in terms of how do we Do you see a path To us being able to get to a place Where there's a higher level of respect Of your religion

6:47Big Zuu:I mean yeah I think It's so tough to unpack bro The BBC just did a show with me called Big Z goes to Mecca yeah Which aired last year And We got so much love for it So much respect for it You know people People really loved the show. People from all walks of life. And I respect the BBC for giving me a platform to do that. But there was a lot of pushback as well. Like, why is BBC commissioning the show about a Muslim guy going and doing his pilgrimage? Like, do we need to see that? Why are we paying? Why are taxpayers paying for that? What's mad is that throughout of Big Eats, me, Tabs and Hyder were all Muslim.

7:27Big Zuu:All of us are Arab. We say words like, inshallah. We talk about halal. We don't eat pork. We're like, demanding no drink. all these little things like and people loved it because we're still British we don't compromise on our Britishness we're still British we're just Muslims that are British and I think you know I think representation is super important because when you have shows like that subconsciously we're breaking down people who have a certain ideology that Muslims are doing negative things to their country because they watch us on the telly and they go those lads are alright so actually maybe that Muslim guy I know in real life maybe he isn't coming for me maybe he's cool as well so representation is super important because it breaks down the subconscious the best way for me to give an example is I love Rosie Jones Rosie Jones she's a comedian at cerebral palsy she's mad she's mental she's hilarious so funny I've never even had a conversation with someone with cerebral palsy let alone chilled with them so when I did an episode of Big Eats with her it was a big shock for me because it's like how do I talk to you?

8:36Big Zuu:How do I appropriate you? Do I change how I am with you? Do I just treat you the same? Do I do I go slower? Do I my brain was thinking all these things but as soon as I spent two minutes with her I'm like she's a normal chick bruv. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. So it taught me sometimes you have to be around things to understand them. So my episode with Rosie is my favourite episode because I cook her this mad meal and then we but me and her get on like a house on fire so now when people watch the episode they'll see oh that Rosie Jones woman yeah she's a disabled comedian she's actually really funny she's a normal chick she's quite rude and she's she might be a little bit of a prick but like in a good way but then that's breaking down the barrier of what you think of disabled people now you might think disabled people are not able you might think they can't they're not funny or they don't they're not like she loves talking about women like she's a lesbian She loves gyal.

9:33Big Zuu:Like, you maybe not think that they have any sexuality to them. You might not think they even have sex. So then, that's breaking it down. So if that's what Rosie's doing with her, by being representative of people with cerebral palsy, that's what me and Tabzi and Haida are doing, of representing people from Islam. Right. But then you can't just have us. You need a wealth of us, because Muslims come in different shapes and sizes, and come in different forms. Same way, you can't just have Rosie, because Rosie is not the only disability there is in the world. you have to have different forms of different representation across the board you can't just have one black man because that one black man doesn't represent all black people right so even though he's a cool black man he's a nice black man there might be a different type of black man who's a bit more funny or who's a bit more strict or who's these a bit more wacky you need all forms so you can understand all forms of that that race or that gender or that disability or that sex so So I feel like what we have with representation on telly is that because there's not enough, things get put into a box.

10:48Nadiya Hussain:So when you think about your womanhood.

10:50Paul C. Brunson:Yeah.

10:51Nadiya Hussain:What was that identity?

10:54Paul C. Brunson:I hated being a woman. I look at my grandma, married at the age of 12. She had eight pregnancies by the time she was 20, lost four of those. And every single time, you know, she had a girl. Every time she had a girl, she was ostracized because she had to have a boy. And she tells those stories. She still tells her stories. She had twin daughters and she said they died and nobody cared because they were girls. But if they were twin boys, they would have been straight to the doctors. so that's that's the kind of those are the women I'm around she was you know she was she suffered domestic violence she didn't read or write I looked at my mum and my aunties the sort of next generation that that I grew up around they were miserable they were unhappy there was domestic violence.

11:55There was unhappy homes.

11:59Paul C. Brunson:Child after child after child in the hope to bear a boy. It was, that's not the life I wanted. I was like, no thanks. I don't want to be a wife. I don't want to be a mother. I just want to study. I just want a career. I just want to make loads of money. That's it. I don't want to do any of that. I was like, it was the most unappealing thing. there was not one maternal bone in my body I was like don't want to marry don't want to have kids not going to do it I just wanted to go to university that was it and my mum said if you go to university and you leave this house I will change the locks and you will never set foot in this house again and when you're 18 with no financial backing no money no savings that's a really scary thing to hear.

12:47Paul C. Brunson:When I didn't go to university, I rebelled in the best way I know, which is to go quiet. I went completely quiet. Nobody knew what was going on in my head. Not one person could say they knew what was happening in my head. I went quiet. I isolated. Definitely, like I was in the throes of depression at that time, hugely.

13:14and I just threw myself into work so I got three jobs, got a car, saved up to buy a house,

13:25Paul C. Brunson:did all the things that I thought I wanted to do but without the degree.

13:30Nadiya Hussain:And you were permitted, you were allowed to do those things.

13:34Paul C. Brunson:Yes.

13:36Nadiya Hussain:and just to help me understand why were you permitted to do those things but not the university was it because you were still at home?

13:44Paul C. Brunson:Because I was still at home because I was I can still be managed I still didn't socialize didn't go out with friends which is probably why I'm not good at friendships because I just I don't know how much to put in or what to put in so I didn't socialize with friends it was very much work and back work and back I only came home to sleep to the point where I was so angry with my parents I didn't eat at home I was like I do not want to eat your food not gonna eat it and my mom was so sad because her love language is food and she would like if you didn't eat then she was sad so she would come to my work with a plate of food and I'd say I don't want it and that was her trying to reconcile with me and I was like not gonna have it so I take the plate and I throw all the food in the bin or I'd give it to someone.

14:35Paul C. Brunson:Do you want it? Because I don't want it. And then I lived on a diet of Pringles and Coca-Cola for a really long time. I was like, not going to have it. And that was me rebelling. That was the only way I could rebel. I couldn't scream. I couldn't shout. I couldn't fight. But I could stay, go quiet and I could stop eating. And that caused its own problems in my adulthood.