Rose McGowan “Hollywood Was Worse Than The Cult I Escaped”

28:47Just like, oh, you know. And yeah, so that. And then my mom dragged me inside. I got dumped out on the lawn. And then I think that was the end. Gotcha. So they witnessed that happen. Yeah. And said, okay, she must be an addict. I mean, that's a real stretch. As the makings. The makings of. The makings of an addict. I was very upset because they said you'll have to be here for like a year. And I was like, oh, my goodness. I was like, what? Like that, no, what? And that's a year of not being released, not being able to go home. They would take us to make us play like some basketball or something, like this tall.

29:27And they had like, you know, bars on the windows of the van, like protect. It was super weird. So then I just leaned into it. I would say, well, you know, due to my massive LSD consumption, I can't tell if there's one or 20 basketballs coming at me. I really can't play. So I just – and then I kind of became the ringleader of all these weirdos at that – the whole thing was just like peak absurdity. And I think luckily I've always like had a – like I've just always seen kind of abstract weird humor in kind of perilous kind of crap situations. Yes. So this is – in essence, this is rehab. Yeah. That they've placed you in.

30:07And also, it's the fact that you don't need it. How long were you away for? I escaped. You escaped? I rolled out, like I climbed over a fence from their basketball area. And just that was... Okay. And I... Then I met two drag queens who legitimately were performing drag and a stripper named Tina. And then I hit the road with them. And then I learned a lot about drugs and decided LSD was the way. Like, yes, please. It was the way to go. Let's step it up. Going to rehab is actually taught you. Oh, yeah. I didn't know anything about any of that before. But now I knew. I was like, all right, let's go.

30:51What I left out of all of this is that my big saving grace and how I related and understood psychology of the big, wide, scary world was books. I started figuring out where all my favorite authors from the U.S. were buried, and I decided to go on this journey, and the police didn't really know what to do with me. I would say, I know where my mom, you know, she changed her phone number, but I know the address. Can you please buy me a bus ticket to, one of them was Memphis, Tennessee. Okay. And one of them was Ketchum, Idaho. Hemingway. Yes. Right, exactly. And one of them, so I would just, whatever I did, they would just buy me a book.

31:29I think I was a lot less paperwork, and it was a totally different time. It was not electronic. Then I would go to my author's graves, and I would read them a passage, and then move along. I just needed a destination, I think. I decided, I was like, okay, I'm cold. I'm tired. I'm hungry. No one's looking for me. I don't know where I am. Okay, how can we make this fun? Right. That's always been kind of how it's been. If we spend a second on the no one's looking for me. That part bummed me out. Yes. And that I actually didn't really realize until kind of not that long ago. I was like, oh, I was able to work that hustle with the police in these different states because there was nobody looking for me, because there was nothing.

32:11There was nobody notified any police. I imagine it was just a relief. I have no idea. It is weird. That is an odd one. So at 13, your parents don't notify anyone, any authority that you're missing.

32:28Okay. But eventually, I got quite tired of being quite tired and cold, cold, cold and hungry. I did call my aunt, and she sent me a ticket and came and met me and got me, and I stayed with her for a while. Okay. And where did your aunt live? Seattle, Washington. Seattle, Washington. And then I became 14 there. There you go. Wow. Exactly. You lived 10 lives by 14. I know. Some people would be like, is Hollywood the weirdest and craziest thing that's happened to you? I'm like, no. No. Just with the, it was a different weird cult language that I didn't really understand. But no, not the weirdest.

33:12And not the most interesting, to be honest. No. And not the most unique and not the most vibrant and not the most fun and not the most artistic. No. But it could have been. Yes. But it wasn't. Yes. Yeah. So I'm curious, at 14. I was tired. You're tired. I needed it now. You're tired, but what's your outlook on life at 14? Because I remember at 14, my son is 15. My oldest is 15. He's beginning to get an inkling of, here's what I would like to do. Here's a path I would like to take. Like, what was your thought on where you wanted to go at 14? Well, from a very young age, before I'd even seen a screen, I knew I would somehow be on it.

33:59But not in a way that was like, it was just like, I know this. Okay. So I should probably study for this. I would watch any time an old film came on and I would study their body language and their posture and how they would, you know, and how almost their faces moved with the light. And I would study, and then I would put like a sheet on myself and make it into a long evening gown. And at times I'm not the only kid that's done this, obviously, but I just knew I was training for destiny. um you uh we could go as deep or light as you want to but i would imagine home was not nice during this time no my dad was went through a like was going through a very bad patch in his life and i didn't um and i at this point was just very uh mad at this all the situations i was pissed off um i thought i kind of found safety living with my aunt but then she's like oh great news is your dad is moving here.

35:02And I was like, I hadn't seen him in a while. But historically, though, things were good with your father. Somewhat, yeah. But then when I went to, I just, I'd seen him, I think, like maybe a year before. And it was like, he was, it was different. He was angry. He, I think he was very good with smaller children. I think also, you know, and I saw this with my sisters, or people that could look at people with this kind of worshipful eyes. And even as a child, I think that's what he meant when he said, why can't you be childlike? And I think I was my father's instant karma. I was the one in the corner of the room, like, couldn't lie.

35:46Some people, a lot of people, need to kind of wear masks and they love people looking at them with adulation. It's certainly nice, but as a requirement to have someone be around you, to be able to give that to somebody, I've never been able to perform that task. Okay. I can't do it. And you believe he needed that. And I, at that point, was hard opposite. I could not give it. And he, like, you know, bad situation with my stepmom that he likely caused. I think at this point he was a bit imbalanced. The month before Christmas every year would be a month of raging in as capitalism and consumerism.

36:28Not wrong, but also very stressful for kids who just want a tree and maybe a present or like something. So I could see both sides, but he couldn't fit back in the regular world. There wasn't a place for him. And I think it just got, you know, a bit. And so I think also when you marry someone younger than you, eventually they grow up and you're not kind of. So they broke up. This is his second wife. And he was in a real, like I had never heard this term. I would get screamed at that I was a feminazi all the time. And I was like, what? Like, what's that? And I think for him, I was his nightmare of living with me.

37:08And he was my nightmare of having to live with him. And it was a bad year. I used to plot his murder in my closet at night. And I had a meat, like a chicken mallet. And I just, I had this, you know, idea that I was going to read this monologue of, like, all these things that he'd done while then bashing him to death with this. I mean, the idea that someone would stay still for that is absurd. But, yeah, it was on, you know. And it was randomly, I think he had no idea how to express anything, and I was there. And that sucked. I translated this later. when I lived with them, he would say, like, you're not worth buying silverware for.

37:49You're not worth buying a bed for. I mean, these stories are also... But I really think, because what he really wanted to say is, I have no money. I, this divorce, everything collapsed. I'm an artist. The art market has crashed. I'm terrified. I'm despondent. I have no way forward in this society. I don't fit in here. I do something that's not valued anymore. My mode of art, airbrush, is not computers are here. There's all these things. But he couldn't. So what you do is you just, you know. And I think this, again, when you, to your thing of backstage, like, relatability, I think that is a common thing with a lot of people, that they're told something or that something is their fault when they're a child or even older.

38:37But really it's the other person. And like, because if they had to probably acknowledge all the things they were afraid of, they might break. Yes. Yes. So with this perspective of grace that you give over your father, right, I'm curious about your opinion of this. Okay. Ready for this? What? When you see this, how would you describe it? And how do you feel looking at this?

39:11He had a couple more years to live after this, maybe like one and a half. I think he loved me very deeply, and I loved him. I think I was on my second year of a show called Charm. That's why I have the air color. He hated Hollywood, but couldn't explain why to me in a way that I could understand and in a way that I could hear. And I think he loved me very deeply. Yes. Yes. I know he did. I don't even have to have met him to know that he did. And I thought what, how you just described the challenges that he had was so eloquent because I think this is, it's, it's one of these where I've learned at the older that I get, I can see, and you, and you loved him.

40:02Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Is the older that I get, the more grace I give to everyone but also my parents. And you realize when they grew up what they had to witness, what they were not, the grace they were not given, what society was like, what limitation of the tools that they had to then go out and raise a child or raise children and how a lot of these expressions were expressions of frustration. Yes. And that's exactly, and the fact that you know this allows you to see that he actually did love you. Yeah. And I think there's beauty in that. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. He was a cool cat, but really, you know, God, just, some people

41:01it's too you know it's too much and I think I was always stronger than him

41:12but he's also taught me a way of seeing the world or maybe taught or just jived with that viewpoint and and you know he would take me in Seattle to do AIDS hospice and just sit with people and hold their hands. Yes, yes. I'll tell you what's going to stay with me forever is your father taking you hunting for colors. Pretty cool, huh? That's pretty cool. That's one of the coolest things I've ever heard, ever, hunting for colors. And that makes, honestly, me more proud of him than anything else, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That's cool. Thank you for that. I acknowledge you. It is. It's very cool. I'm incredibly grateful right now for the One Better Guide by our sponsor, Adobe Express, for helping me to elevate one of the most important moments of the year for me, and that is the Amber Rising campaign at Sutton United.

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43:16Just a heads up, This next section includes discussion of sexual assault. Please watch with care. So how do you go from a 14-year-old in Seattle, living with your father, to Hollywood? I saw a flyer that someone had posted for, like, you could be an extra in a movie for$35 a day. And I was like, all right. So I did that, and I wound up, funny, being cast as a... I've never seen this movie. It does look absurd. But it was some robot cyborg teachers, you see. Oh, really? As they do. And I was in a gang called the Blackhearts. And I had a little drawn black heart on my little cherub face, this little round head.

44:09And it was funny because I have seen clips of it. and I had no dialogue, but they definitely made me a featured extra. And so like being in this classroom scene, you just see my little head just kind of like. I was so dumb. So that was your first film. Yeah, and then I met this kid on it that was like a child star and had been in, to me, one of my favorite vampire movies, Near Dark and a movie called River's Edge. So how is it that you specifically get from or go from Seattle to, is it L.A.? An Amtrak. That's specifically how you did it. You asked. But by yourself. Yeah. I don't remember the leaving.

44:56I do remember feeling very badly. I told my little brother at that point I'd come to live with my dad and I, and I felt very, very bad about having to leave him with my dad at the stage my dad was in. but I also knew that I was either going to kill my dad with a chicken mallet or he would kill me. And I felt really bad leaving my brother, but I couldn't do it anymore. And I also knew this was my shot out. All right. My way out. Did you have anything lined up? No, because you're 14. Right, but I did have the child actor on the set that I made friends with and his mother, Susan Miller, who they were kind of ensconced.

45:35They were like from old Hollywood in a way, like the history of them. And they took me in. So I lived in this big house in an area called Hancock Park. Wow. And they got me an audition. And I auditioned. I got one line in a movie with Brendan Fraser and Pauly Shore called Encino Man. Encino Man, yes. And I remember being very upset that they wouldn't give a – it was a night shoot. It was nighttime and the extras were cold and they wouldn't give them hot coffee. I remember thinking, the producers, and I remember just thinking like, it just felt like there's some, and then I thought, oh, these people are not for me.

46:18These people are not cool. This is not my vibe. I love Brendan and that was cool. But no. And then I, actually my mom moved to Los Angeles. and we had a really beautiful, I think it was like six or seven months together, and I actually did like a semester at Hollywood High, which is where some very famous people went to school. And my one theater experience was there, and I played Antigone, who, you know. Yes. I remember that was really powerful, and that was cool. I really actually did well with those people. They were the first time I was around younger people because I'd also, like, at 14 in Seattle was, like, being photographed and had a boyfriend that was, like, 36 who had dropped me off a block away from my dad.

47:08Boyfriend. Didn't understand. And later I'm like, I didn't, I just didn't, so didn't relate to people my age, I didn't know what. You had a boyfriend who's 36 when you were 14. Yeah, I did not understand. And now I'm like, oh, now I understood, obviously with hindsight, like when he would take me to parties, people would be like, and I just thought maybe they thought I was ugly or freaky because that was how I interpreted when people would look at me weird. Was that, at 14, was that your first boyfriend? That was your first relationship? And he would show me like, you know, French films with like older men and like, you know, the classic grooming crap, but make it art.

47:55Yes. And now I'm like, no wonder my dad would have killed you, and rightfully so. Yeah. So that was, how long was that relationship? I mean, relationship, I don't know. I mean, six months. Six months, okay. And then I left, yeah. And then you left. I tell you, though, I can see that your entire life was, it was not a 14-year-old's life whatsoever. So I didn't know where to, where do I fit, you know? And honestly, like, there were times when I would walk down the street and some of these places I lived, you know, when I was younger, and I would look at families through windows. Not, like, in a creeper way, but in a way almost kind of especially around the holidays.

48:45I would see, like, it just, and I was, like, both confused, comforted, and jealous at the same time. Because it was, like, this really, like, I know I've met some people that have been like, well, I can't compete with your life. And I'm like, no, no. You're, like, a more stable, beautiful, consistent safe. That's exotic and beautiful to me. That to me is highly interesting. And I felt really bad for a lot of these Hollywood kids. Their parents were very wealthy, working very hard, but would kind of slip a check from the accountant under the door and let that be it. That's it. No intimacy. Just here's the money.

49:38These kids were like spoiled, obnoxious, rich, lonely, empty. Your mother, she must have known she was going to leave. Why was she leaving? Where was she leaving to go? She went back to, at that point, I think she went back to Washington State and to my youngest brother who, you know, that was good. Okay. And had fallen for someone and maybe it was job too. I don't know that, but moved, yeah. Okay. But we had actually a great time for that six or eight months. It was really, I had a brilliant time with her. We had this really, really cute 1920s little bungalow right dead in Hollywood now. Like, I know, like, you wouldn't live in that area.

50:21It was like a sketchy area, but it was a real house. It was a really beautiful time, and I got to be with my mom. This is the first time that I can think from knowing your story all the way through to this age. So you are 15. 15. You're 15. This is the first time that you've had what would be considered to be a safe family environment, a safe home. Safe home. Yeah. So this is. So the fact that then your mother wants to leave, that must. That sucked. Yeah. That must be terrible for you. Yeah. That was not ideal. But I also, there was no place for me, like really. because my dad was as he was when I'd left him.

51:13And then with my mom, it would be that with this, there was no, and I couldn't return to that world. I'd already been in this world. You know, I'd already been, you know, so I'd already been around like some quite famous much, now I knew they're like how famous these people were, like from legendary older actors, like from back in the day, that would be at the Hancock Park house that I was staying at with them. So I was exposed to, you know, a different level of kind of unique fabulousness. And again, I'd been raised on these kind of classic films with this idea of classic Hollywood. And that was kind of very much around me.

51:50But by the time I was 15 and a half, I'd gone to court to legally emancipate myself. I don't know what they call that in the UK, but essentially divorcing your parents so you can have autonomy. You can have a bank account. I wasn't old enough to drive, but I did that. And I remember feeling I had gotten very few compliments in my life on my mind. And I remember the judge saying, you would make a fine lawyer. So I go, wow. That's good. Look at that. Nice compliment at 15. But you're emancipated now. So you are responsible for yourself at 15, responsible for where you're going to live. What's the next film for you?

52:30It was a wild movie. It was called The Doom Generation. And honestly, it's super bananas crazy, but I love it. Visually, it's just so cool. So cool. So many artists working on it, like the crew and like every level of department. Really amazing. But there was, it also felt like really kind of sexist too in a lot of ways behind the scenes. Like I was, some stuff was, like they laid me on top of, it's not the actress fault. They laid me on top of his body face to face for the chemistry thing. And he had an erection and that's not his fault. You just laid a girl on top of him and then now say the lines for the camera.

53:10There was no scene in the movie that was that, but I kind of floated out of my body. So I quickly realized, I was like, okay, no one's going to protect you again. And that was, you know, okay, you're on your own in a way. But I also still understood how to deal with – and then before the movie came out, I'm on the cover of Interview Magazine, a very famous magazine. I'm on the cover of all – So life really changes just like that. But even in that process – okay, help me understand this because I think I understand Rosa. Yeah. Rose gets confused. Yes. But I feel like this is Rose almost because to me, correct me if I'm wrong here, Rosa would have walked away the moment that something went slightly awry on that set or didn't feel as if it was in her eyes as right.

54:08She would have said, I'm done. Yeah. I think something to do with the fact that I was homeless again and that when she asked me if I wanted to be, I said, well, how much money does it pay? And it was$10 ,500. And I realized a very small amount of money. But with that, I could get a flat. I could get an apartment. I could live somewhere. All right. That was why. All right. Makes sense. Makes sense. But then all of a sudden, I'm being sent around the world at film festivals. People, when it premiered at Sundance Film Festival, like, you know, like there was like a real, like some people walked out, like one person vomited.

54:46The director was like, yes, which I kind of thought was punk and amazing. And other people really loved it. My father, I told him, don't go see this movie when it played at the Seattle Film Festival. And again, I didn't understand at this point. I knew because I had a topless scene. And I think my character was kind of like sad in a bathtub. And then my dad, I thought he, I told him not to go, but he did. Then he chased the director out and tried to beat him up in the alley, which now I'm like, well, fair play. Did he? Did he? But I didn't, he didn't tell me that. The director I told him. But my dad didn't.

55:24And he did say like, well, congratulations on officially being a whore. That's what you found. And we didn't talk for about five years after that, yeah. I think he saw and understood more about the machine of Hollywood than I did. But at the time, I was like, no, these are cool people. This is good. And so I was like, you know, pass. Right, right. So from that film? Basically, I think it was Scream. Okay, Scream was the next one. Maybe like one or two. I can't remember the order. And very quickly, once you get the agent and the manager, Now I'm like this person with that life before, but now I'm dealing with contracts and lawyers and managers and agents and business managers and percentages.

56:08And the people that I would kind of audition against, the other girls, would be people that usually started at like six months old with like a stage mom who would say like, oh, watch out for that person or this person or like they kind of knew the lay of the land. And I was like – and I maybe – I mean looking back historically, there's very few without nepotism. Like with even – like they might appear like they just were there organically, but their dad might be a famous cinematographer or something like that. So I really had no – I'd only seen these old movies as my preparation for Hollywood.

56:40I was going to ask about the apparatus because what I imagine to your point is you had no – Like you didn't have family giving opinion. No, I couldn't ask anybody anything. No, it's just – it's literally you. So you then, I would imagine after that first film, you definitely have manager, agent, maybe publicist. Yeah. Do you have – what does your social circle look like though? Do you have friends that are besties that you can go – no, no one. Just you. No, it's always really lonely. And also, and I can say this not in any kind of arrogant way, because in some way I was like for a while like a freakishly beautiful young woman.

57:32like to that period there was not filters there was not you know like the plastic surgery not like injections none of that it was like at that point to either be a supermodel or on screen you almost had to be at a freakish like olympian level of um not just of talent but also of looks like it had to be also unique in a way and to kind of break in that way was I also had a really wild story that made for catnip for the press. It was interesting, you know, it was, but it was never, the way it was told was never like kind of real or in depth, but it was, it was, and I always gave good quotes. I didn't know what the hell I was doing.

58:14I just had to pretend, but it was, it was at that point, it was just like, like, no, a lot of times, like I would have an amazing photo shoot, this great kind of artistic experience with incredible makeup and cool hair and a cool outfit, but after it was done, I would just go home and watch an old movie because I didn't have anyone to go out with or do anything with. The perspective, I think, so many of us looking from the outside would think, no, Rose McGowan had a whole crew of people at the house. No. I was also quite shy. I saw someone posted a clip of a behind-the-scenes interview with me when I was doing Scream.

58:57I was like, I was looking down. I was like very shy. And I could act a really good game, right? But intrinsically, I was like, I didn't, I was like, I could handle being like arrested in the cops. And I could give it to them and know what I was doing there. But in this fancy world, it was very destabilizing. And I love the other actors, the co-stars, the director. That movie was very, very special. But everybody would talk about the boss, this loser named Harvey Weinstein. Oh, I didn't realize he was over screen. He owns the producer. They were always kind of scared he would come to set. The only thing I would hear would be this kind of fear when people would mention him.

59:50And I think what people don't understand, one, I, you know, that movie, and then I immediately got cast in a second movie for his company. Okay. Where I was playing a 16-year-old. And in the middle of that film, my heart's racing, I got sent to Sundance again. And the first Sundance was fun. And, like, we got to go to these, like, kind of cool parties that were more, like, organic, like, kind of cool, like, kind of after hours type parties with, like, indie filmmakers. So it was kind of punk DIY thing. This thing was a totally different machine. And at this point, there was, like, a camera crew from MTV following me.

1:00:34It was, like, Rose McCowan, A Day in the Life, 24 hours with her, right? And I had four films. I'd done four films, and they hadn't come out yet. But they gave me four days off from the movie where I was playing a 16-year-old called Phantoms to go do my press obligations at Sundance, blah, blah, blah. And at that point, nobody else had ever had four movies in competition there. It was a really big deal. And I mean, that's what they were all telling me. So I am in the theater for one of the movie screenings. and my manager, this woman, I see she's behind me and I see this kind of big pockmarked kind of shadow behind me that she's talking to and it was Weinstein.

1:01:24And everybody who ever talked about this man, they would like with fear. I think it was like the mafia boss really, honestly. And he was, you know, big and giant and tough. And later I would see like Roman men shake if he walked in the room. Like adult men that were like power players. They would like start physically shaking the terror. It's hard for people to kind of understand the level of control and power. Even though he wasn't maybe making the most money out of anybody, there's something about his situation that had a lock and a hold on people. What do you think it was about the situation?

1:01:58Because I've heard stories. We actually had a guest, Mylene Klass, who had an experience, unfortunately, with him, but would talk about the power that he exuded. What do you think it was about his positioning that gave him that? I think he was a thug. I think it was like almost like not the mafia boss of the cool kind with a suit like you know who like the Marlon Brando you know godfather type but more like a street way like but he you know and I think he he used that whole casting couch thing as his cover for a long time because that wasn't his thing of course there were sad girls or people that would sleep with that to get ahead that wasn't what he liked.

1:02:49He liked finding the special ones. I think it was like a glutton. It was like eating. I think he wanted to suck their soul. But I think in my situation, that camera crew was following me and I'd seen the night before the premiere of one of my movies at Sundance, I'd seen my manager and him, their heads together. And she's very excited afterwards. And she's like, tomorrow morning you have a meeting at 10 a.m. at the Stein Erikson Lodge, which was like the fanciest hotel, you know, kind of there. in the dining room. You'll have breakfast with your boss and discuss your future with the company. At this point, Gwyneth Paltrow, like, you know, maybe already won an Oscar or was, like, on her way to, and it was like, if you're one of the chosen ones, this will be, this is your wonderful life.

1:03:34You gotcha. So he was looked at as the star maker. Right, and I was already a star, like, the movie I'd made was already, like, on its way to making, I don't know how many billions it's made by now, but a lot. Everything in hindsight, every detail leading up to that moment, I could see how orchestrated it was to get me into the position that I was in. From the maitre d' of the restaurant saying, oh no, he's delayed on calls and would like you to go upstairs. To the presidential suite, and it's always put in the press, which he later bought off against me for well over two decades. I'll explain more of that later.

1:04:11But I turned to the MTV cameras and I turned to them and I said, I think my life is finally getting easier.

1:04:21And that was what I kicked myself for. I felt like that was the one thing a lot of people blame themselves for, like, if I hadn't have done this. I kind of, that was the one, the only thing that I could grab onto that I could say I wish I hadn't done because anything else, it was just this. And when people think they present it as if you're opening a door in a hotel and there's the bed. No, dummies, this is a presidential suite. This is where, like, the president stay. It has three offices. It's massive. Also, I was supposed to be in the dining room, but then they're like, he's finishing up calls.

1:04:51So then I go and I knock on the door. These two assistants come out. And I'm like, good morning. And they wouldn't look at me. Really? They would not look at me. And I remember thinking, like, dickheads, if one of you had just said, like, watch out, my street instincts would have kicked in. Right. But I really thought I was safe. I thought I was with fancy people, that I already had the jobs. I wasn't trying to get a job. Right. And did you – had you heard anything about – No. So the four movies I'd done leading up to that point were all filmed at night. I had very little contact with the outside world.

1:05:30I was filming back to back to back. None of them were filmed in Hollywood. I didn't know. I wasn't moving in social circles. I was still pretty unknown because Scream, I think, had just come out. I was just going to, but it wasn't. I wasn't like. I was on magazine covers and stuff like that, But I remember standing next to somebody at a knee stand thinking, oh, surely everyone's going to recognize me. Nobody did. You know, it wasn't like a thing yet. No. And was your manager invited to this meeting? No. And later I learned she got a package deal to work at his company. Okay. You see the orchestration of it all.

1:06:14The camera crew is no longer then filming you. No, they stay outside. And so it's sitting actually quite like this, quite just like this, actually more distance between. There was a big table in between us. You remember every moment of certain things. You replay every angle, every detail over and over and over. And your thought is, my life is about to get easier. Well, I thought he's going to be so charmed by my knowledge of film. I hear he loves cinema. He talks about how he loves cinema. That's what we talked for the first 45 minutes of this hour-long meeting, was just talking about film and cinema and classic films and this and that.

1:06:49And it was actually on my way out. I was almost out. I saw the door. I saw the door. And then it just kind of like got sideways pulled into like a room with like a hot tub. And the next thing, it all happened, you know, as people say they go through this, very fast and very slow. And the next thing I know, I'm like, have no clothes on. And I'm like, just like a statue. And I was like, just like, like just, and then I just froze. And then I like, there's literally no way that anybody could be like, yeah, this person's into this. No way. But what he would do, and I would find this out later, is that he would buy a journalist.

1:07:25They would write an article or a story and he would say, I'm going to option this and turn this into an Oscar winning film. And this was all documented and put out later that he had a hit list. And he would buy the journalist all over the world. I mean, the level of this stuff is wild, right? I'm like, the scale of the full-time job behind the full-time job is crazy to me because I'm lazy and not organized. But then he would say, I'm going to turn this into an Oscar-winning film. Sign on the dotted line. Here's it. And they would. And then he'd say, in exchange, if you ever see this person, this person, and you have like a whole list.

1:08:03And I was number one at the red line through my name at the top. If you ever see them at a premiere, if you see a photograph of them, I want you to write the most disgusting article. They're a whore. They're a drug addict. They're stupid. They're trash. All this stuff. So that was like, well, I didn't know that for years how that had happened. I used to just think I must have killed a journalist in my past life. So immediately I go out to this photo call. I'm like super drunk. And then I started like short circuiting. First I get taken and there's all these cameras. And I tell, you know, the person standing next to me where I just come from.

1:08:35And his response, I was like, he knew. I'm sorry, who asked you this? That was actually the actor that had already done movies with him. And then I was like, what? And that kind of stuck him. I was like, what? But there's all these flashbulbs going on. So the actor assumed that you had been assaulted. Just assumed. God damn it, I told him to stop doing this. That was the direct quote. and believe me, with every fiber of my being, every step of the way, I wish responses and things had been different, you know, really, truly. Can I ask, after an assault like that happens, how it was so orchestrated, the moment that you leave, do you feel as if, you know, Do you feel as if the world has then been – everything is fake.

1:09:36Everything is – nothing is real. That became – over the course of the next days because I actually – I had three more premieres to go to. And that afternoon I got on a flight and I went back to L.A. And I was like – I just was short-circuiting. I couldn't – and I was being yelled at for doing that. But I was like – I was – it's like your life before, your life after. Here's who you were before. This, this, and here's you are. And now, then I immediately went to the management office where he said, I just had an LA Times expose on him killed. God damn it, he owes it to me not to do this. Weirdly, kind of the same pattern of, and then I said, I want to see a criminal attorney.

1:10:26Years later, an assistant of mine much later said, oh, I met this woman. She wants to apologize to you. She was the actress hired to portray the criminal attorney. Wow. So. And so, and she goes, but I also knew that she was like, you'll never win. And so then I thought, oh, I had a couple of thoughts. I thought maybe if I go to therapy for six months, I can be who I was again before this happened. I don't know, just like kind of childlike in a way. And then the other thought was like, I found out very quickly that he was making payments like every week to various people he'd assaulted various like um and but they had assigned something called an NDA a non-disclosure and I'd never heard of this and I asked and I said well if you sign a non-disclosure what um oh you mean you can never tell like your therapist or a friend or you never can I in my mind, I was like, oh, then you can never heal from this.

1:11:31Oh, I can't do that. So then I also thought, well, so I tried, I did something through, and I have the document, I provided that later document to the New York Times, which was, I said, I kind of tricked him. I said, I just, I asked for the smallest number I could think of that would still seem reasonable. I didn't want a million, because then I'd have to sign an NDA. But if I asked for 100 ,000, then I thought two things, I could buy a billboard. I wanted to buy a billboard. I said, like, loser Weinstein is a rapist. But what that$100 ,000 got me was a document saying this is to buy peace. But it was not a nondisclosure.

1:12:13I see. I see. Which allowed you to be able to disclose. That was the trick. I sometimes wonder, like, how did I shut up? And this would be especially Oscar time when I would see all these people thanking him. They calculated that he was thanked more times than God at the Oscars. They counted. Someone counted. And did a supercut of every single person. Because he was their God. And that's when I started really seeing the parallels to and how it operated. But I would go, at that point, I had been on this trajectory that was like, boom. And the next thing, you know, I'm already kind of like, then at that point, fame was hitting, like, outside of Hollywood.

1:12:55And people were coming up to me on the streets. I was causing disruptions wherever I went. And I'm thinking, like, oh, no, what other – I caused kind of chaos at the time, like being very famous. Like everyone's pointing and, like, you know, chasing after you and autographs and all the stuff that you see for experience. And I felt well and good. I felt well entrapped. Well entrapped. Yeah. I'm famous. Now I cause chaos. when I just go to get coffee. That was all happening kind of at the same time in the outer world. These movies were hitting. I see. And I'm now like, I don't, I can't get, what job do I get?

1:13:37I can't go to school. What do I do? Right. Is there a certain point where you realize that you're not being listened to? Very quickly. Very quickly. I was like, what? The responses were so strange that I was like, wait, people knew about this? wait what and then actually um there was a voicemail on my phone it was it was him I still have this tape somewhere in storage and it was uh he named off three three actresses this is my special friend this is my special friend you're my new special friend and I remember sliding down on the floor in the dark and just like like and those people still they're very very famous and they have won oscars or one of them and the other one they talk you know it's just is what it is but i was not raised in that way and i didn't understand and honestly someone said would you trade who you are your soul your spirit your body to get this fuck no i'm not that person so the what was his intention of that voice note Basically, if you shut up, here's the keys to the kingdom.

1:14:52Gotcha. You can have an Oscar like this person or a talk show like this person. And I just thought, I don't value what you value. That's the problem here. Did you respond to that voice note or no? No. No. I did think, like, how did you get my number? Well. Yes, yes. At what moment do you become fearful? Because I would imagine that. I became more despondent and angry. Okay. I would say, I think I just kind of caved in on myself. Okay. And then I was slated to do a movie. I had to go back and finish playing the 16-year-old. That was... Right, because that's for his company. And the attitude on that set, except for the great and wonderful Peter O'Toole that was in Lords of Arabia.

1:15:40Yes, Peter O'Toole. We became friends on that set and stayed friends until he died. Like, he was amazing, but he was certainly above that fray. But the other two kind of men on there, like, it was like no longer would talk to me, look at me. It was immediate punishment. It was just the classic boring story. And really, if you took my story and put it to the 16-year-old cheerleader, you know, of a football team who gets assaulted by the coach, and then the whole town turns against her because he's the famous one. And it's not dissimilar. It just went on and on and on and on. And so what I did, though, was like I just like at that point then I was the movies I was getting were much less savory offers, not as good.

1:16:30But I had to do I was already famous. I didn't know. I did not know what else. Like I felt very trapped behind a screen and I didn't know how to get out. And at that point, I'm Rose McGowan. So over the last year, the amount of guests that we've had, women who have experienced sexual assault, has blown me away to the point where now I'm getting involved in campaigns for violence against girls and women, in particular here in the UK. And I think that a lot of what happens to boys is that there's no dialogue, there's no discussion around this whatsoever. and it's happening in isolation with our most toxic men and when it is, when it's brought up, when it's mentioned, it's brought up as a joke, it's mentioned as a joke and the room takes it as a joke.

1:17:29Oh, yeah, oh. But it's not attacked head on as it should be. And I have so many ideas around what we could be and should be doing as a society. It's pretty staggering. Staggering, the numbers. And I think that's amazing. I would say maybe we talk after, but to include some boys and men in that too. In the? In the not just women and girls. Something that I learned that I. Oh, I'm sorry. You're saying violence against boys and men. Okay. Something that I was not like you, how you didn't like that. I did not know the staggering levels of boys and some men that get.

1:18:18Until, you know, jumping way far ahead, but the the kind of Me Too onslaught, something that was super wild to me was that about I was getting it was a global. like thousands and thousands of messages a day for on all dms on all platforms for probably three or four years straight and i would say about 85 percent were from men and um straight and gay the youngest i remember was 14 that reached out to me The oldest was 85, and I, it like, kind of like, my babysitter, my aunt, this nanny, the male swim instructor, this and that. And I have a theory, and then almost every, without fail, every single, I would just kind of scroll.

1:19:16I couldn't like it was just like the store. I was like it was breaking my brain. It was so intense. I was like I became like this kind of receptacle for people's pain, but very specifically men and boys. And it was very wild was I did not know the scale of this. I still think I'm just touching the scale of that. But then I think they get told, and I suspect, I could be wrong, that I think boys and men might perceive that women or girls talk about their deepest pain or shame together or that they have some outlet for something bad that's happened to them. Right. I can't say this is not so. Nobody wants to deal with this.

1:20:01Nobody. Which, fair. Me neither. Yeah. And if you do, it's in a moment of like maybe you're drunk or maybe it's a sad moment. You let off steam or something pops out, but then you gloss it over and pretend like, you know, change the subject and go on. I perceive things and tell me if I'm wrong. I mean, not that you're the authority of all society, but I think boys and men might have this fake information given to them that we have an outlet for pain as women. and just kind of talk about stuff and work through it and that there might be some jealousy on that side from that perspective. But I can unequivocally say on our side we do not.

1:20:45So I will say, not speaking on behalf of all men. And I can't speak on behalf of all women because I'm a weirdo even there. But say I'm a weirdo on my side too. We're two weirdos having a conversation.

1:20:58But I will say that I think the overwhelming perception is among the men I do know is that, yes, women speak to a deeper degree and have more of an outlet around pain, traumatic experience, perilous situations versus us. I think society continues to create this message, this narrative, that women talk and men don't. And I think that men and women talk. You know, perhaps we talk about different things. But the idea, to your point, is I think the idea is that, yes, you talk more about emotional matters, which involves fear and pain, and we don't. I think that is the perception. I think, I definitely think that, yeah, I've suspected that was a perception because I see how these sides are being sided and played against each other from the higher, the higher up, as someone who was used as a weapon against.

1:22:16And that's why I bounced. I was like, no, I'm not going to be your weapon. Goodbye. And I've had some deep friendships with women, and they might share a story, then I might share a story, maybe? And then we just, that's like, oh, yeah, that happened to me. But no, I think everyone, it's just uncomfortable for everybody. I think this is universal. And I think the weaponization of this fake idea that we get to work through stuff, if I was a boy who was having to mask my pain and told to just put on your suit and get on with it, I would have kind of a resentment and jealousy against that. Because I would think that's not fair.

1:23:05I need help and no one's helping me. Who do I talk to? whereas the girl is like where are these other girls and women that talk to each other I would like that I need some help I don't know how to say it but we're all getting ready to go to this party or this dance or this thing and I don't want to be a downer let's go I'm not going to say it yeah alright if you've made it this far I know you're loving the conversation So please do me one small favor, hit that bell icon, join our community. Thank you. So meeting Marilyn Manson was... I wanted to, you know, I wanted to feel young again. I felt very old at this point.

1:23:53I felt very, I was like, I think many people have gone through either a death or some kind of horrific thing or assault. You know, they just want to be who they were before that happened. And just, Zach, can we just rewind time just a little bit? I'd read somewhere, like, you know, he had a crush on me, and he opened the door of a movie theater. And I said, oh, hey, I hear you have a crush on me. And then... I saw you met. This is, what is this, about 97? 98. 98. 97, 98. Yeah. And I, I just, I ran away with the circus at that point. I had described him in my book as one of the smartest, funniest people I'd known.

1:24:32Very gentle. and there's so many people that were that I kind of recognize like people trying to destroy someone for being a freak and weird and unique that I related to that and I put me on my like high defensive mechanism like I can protect him. Oh yeah. I mean especially given how you described your life he seems like he's your perfect match. Yes. Except for he was from Ohio. Okay. From a very normal place and he would eat like these things called Hot Pockets, extremely American in a way, classic, with his mom and dad named Barb and Hugh and a solid family unit. And, yeah, no, like very kind of pedestrian life in a lot of ways until he went into music, yeah.

1:25:16So in that way, completely different. But physically on the surface, also being around like kind of unique artists and like kind of more extravagant wild people, men that wore makeup. I mean, my first boyfriend wore thin, long black dresses. You know, like this is not unique to me. It's not unique at all. This is just, this is actually feels much more comfortable to me than like a guy in a baseball hat. Like that's weird. That's just like from another planet for me. So, yeah. But now you described him as, at that point, he was one of the most famous musicians in the world. Quite. he was at the VMAs in 98 but I think it was your dress that got more attention than anyone at the VMAs you know it's interesting there's a thing and I've seen it with hindsight of

1:26:15of how women after there or girls after they're assaulted maybe boys too but I don't know how that manifests that they then go on a kind of like they dress differently, like they dress provocatively or they do, you know, they're like, is this what you want? And I'd actually just found out that I was always like, why do the photographers yell over the shoulder, over the shoulder all the time? Why do they scream like that? I didn't understand. Then I asked someone in the line on the press line, and he said, oh, they make three times as much money if they get your face and your backside in the same shot.

1:26:49And I was like, huh. Look at that. Huh. You don't say. Then I also thought, well, this is Marilyn Manson. Where am I going? Like, well, I got to win.

1:27:03Yes. Yeah. So that dress, that was purely your idea. Oh, yeah. Where do you get a dress like that? Well, it was actually someone that was sent close to him. Okay. And, like, I saw, like, their look book, and I said, oh, that would be funny as hell. because I just found out that information about the money and I kind of, but I didn't have the comprehension or scope. One, internet, no, it didn't exist. Two, I think I really just thought of it in this bubble. I didn't think of how the outside, how the blowback, the slut shaming for years. But it was also that thing of like, you know, later seeing the movie Gladiator when he comes out at the end, he's like, are you not entertained?

1:27:42Yes. It was very much that because a lot of people have copied that dress. Yes, a lot of amazing women have copied it, but here's what they all fuck up. And it always disappoints me. They always do it to be sexy. If you see those photos, there's not one where I'm like, later I would do that pose in evening gowns. But for that, it was like, and it was kind of like, is this what you want? Yeah. Take it. You've taken everything. Take it. are you not entertained?

1:28:20That's a whole other perspective. Yeah. And that's actually what was happening. That's what was happening. Yes. Then I changed into a different outfit for the sitting down portion of the evening because, you know, you can't sit in that dress really. It was made of beating and you don't want the marks. But yeah, every girl that, they've worn beautiful copies of it or versions of it, but it's always kind of like that. And mine was very like direct, which I've really found and later plays into things too of how much it destabilizes people when someone does something with power and will not bend and when somebody is willing to be disliked.

1:28:56I would imagine. It makes people upset. Yeah, I would imagine in particular, because you said you were not aware of what the outer kind of sphere. I was also not aware. Spawned. Yeah, sorry for stuffing on your lines. I was also not aware that for years that immediately that was like him, like, you know, like could buy off the press of like, oh, my God, the chaos it caused worldwide. I can't describe. So if you like imagine like a very viral moment, but like almost analog, like TV, every show, every people commenting like you're a whore worldwide now. And I was also like, but I was also my favorite thing was that it was punk as fuck.

1:29:37And that was also who I was. And I hated that kind of Hollywood thing. But I think, you know, then this thing called Columbine, the first kind of big mass school shooting happened. And he was getting death threats. That's right. Marilyn Manson was. Right. We were getting bomb threats. And I went to higher protective mode. And I'm sorry, just to set the context, because I do recall that. Was it because there were some lyrics that people misattributed or no? No. What happened? No, I think it was because those boys that were the shooters were wearing all black. And it was on live television. And it went on all day or however long they were held hostage there, those poor kids.

1:30:18And the news media just saw they were all black. He wears all black. He's on the cover of Rolling Stone. He's the most famous person in the world right now, most controversial. They're wearing all black. They must love him. Ergo, they must love him. In fact, in their diaries, they hated his music and liked a band called KMFDM. So it was just because like they needed something that, you know, to fill the space in the airtime. Yes. So so so he was getting death threats. But you in part, you're with him. You're getting death threats. Yeah. I mean, we'd be like actually like hiding out, funnily enough, at the Trump Towers.

1:30:55That's where you hit out. Look at that. Hide in plain sight. Oh, my gosh. In New York. So hiding out there. But then also you've got the blowback from the dress. So this is 98. This is still 10 years before Weinstein is convicted of anything, right? No, about like 15 years. 15 years. I had to eat a lot of crow for a lot of years. People would come up to me on the street, power agents, like from this agency, that agency, this agency. They would see me on the street and be like, getting into Weinstein scripts lately. Like people, like I would go to an event. And it would be like, there'd be famous, famous actresses.

1:31:35And they'd be sat next to me and they would scoot away. Like they didn't want to catch my head. But to the outside world, you're so lucky. You're so lucky. You're so lucky. Yes. And I tell you what, I was part of the outside world. I was part of the outside world saying, you know, at home watching the VMAs. Like, wow, look at that. She's winning in life. She can wear nothing out here. Like, she's winning. She's at the VMAs. Like, I had no idea any of this was happening. It was a lot. It was a lot. A lot going on. Yeah. And then basically all movies were like I was 1 ,000 % shutout of that world.

1:32:19But then also worldwide famous at that point. Then I'm really in a pickle. At this point, they're really not actors from movies on TV. It was just kind of starting, but it wasn't really a thing. And there was a show called Charmed that I had never heard of. And at that point, if you were doing very well in the movies, which to the outside world perspective, I'm on the ups. Yes. Right? And then I get a call from this super producer that I had heard about even growing up, like, doing, like, famous shows like Dynasty and, like, love all these, like, big hits. Right? Kind of corny, but, like, amazing, you know, glamorous, this and that.

1:32:55and he's calling you with a job offer. Actually, someone told me last year, they said, oh, Aaron Spelling, he knew exactly what he was doing and he hated those guys in Hollywood. Aaron Spelling, yes, yes. Tori Spelling's father. Exactly. Yes. Power, billionaire. Like before, there were a lot of billionaires, you know, super producer, but he hated the Hollywood film crowd and he specifically hated Weinstein. I didn't know this, actually. I didn't know this and I think this was like a chess move against him. And so he offered me a job. to replace, to come into a show that had, they'd fired the lead actress.

1:33:32Yes. And so that was a whole like hullabaloo that I didn't know anything about because I never watched the show. I'd never heard of it. Again, I'd been just in this other kind of wild world. But I feel like the press, I remember at that time, they were still trying to pit you two against each other. They did that for years. For the year before she died, we kind of went out on this kind of tour together. And she was rad. Yes, yes. And she got to tell her truth. She did a podcast called Let Me Be Clear. And she told her story. And it was not... And the person that got her fired, the other co-star that orchestrated the whole thing, really...

1:34:15You know, you understand that in Hollywood, if you are a woman and you get fired from a job, especially twice, then you're done-zo. But here's what people don't get. The way I was treated by the media, and I used to like literally cry. I would get so upset. I didn't understand like, what did I ever do to this journalist? I didn't understand like why. I wouldn't read a ton of it, but you still, even if you don't really actively look, it still comes in or someone randomly tells you. And I'd be like, what the fuck? I just used to think seriously, I must have killed a journalist in my past life. What did I do to be portrayed this way?

1:34:49And it was so opposite of me who was staying at home watching Shirley Temple films and collecting 1930s Shirley Temple dolls. But they would say, and I didn't know that yet, that I was on top of a bar having a strip-off with Christina Aguilera. I was like, what? I'm in Hollywood working 17 hours a day on this show that I didn't understand the dynamics of. And a lot of people were like, why is she on television? But I couldn't say. You know, now there's certainly no shame in it. But there was at that point, and there was shame for that. But I think, you know, it was – I also knew I was dead in movies.

1:35:25I was already very famous. What job? What do you do? But, you know, even in doing the research, I didn't even piece that together. The fact that – and you're right. I remember that time. Film movies – you were a Hollywood movie star. You're right. TV, quite honestly, was probably beneath the Hollywood – It was? Yeah, it was. so just to just to make that jump it was extremely confusing to the public who was like what because nobody did that really and i couldn't explain why but it was it was so i understood also psychologically the way i'd been being portrayed in the press and also after my you know contribution to it with the dress um that i kind of so i gained weight oh i got my face round and i played very soft i changed my voice to me get kind of higher pitched and very sweet and I knew instinctively I had to make America love me.

1:36:21Oh really? To get that to keep on that job because they said no show and it's quite true has ever survived a major cast change. So then I wound up making the ratings double and then it went on and it became at one point the longest running female-led TV show in history. Look at that. Look at that. I mean it's clearly not only did it resonate at that time but still So it's wild. Yeah, to this point. And my take from it is that it was the celebration of our uniqueness. Yes. And that, yeah, everyone wants their uniqueness to be celebrated. Yeah. That was the hardest job in show business at that point, hour-long shows, because you were filming a movie could take two months on average to shoot for a short movie.

1:37:06We were doing half of a movie in eight days. So a full page of a screenplay on a movie, they would give like a high five. We made it through a full page today on a movie. This we're shooting 10 pages a day. And it was just like, you know, exhausting. But it was also like, it was hard for me because I'd never done anything that was really super corporate. The producers once, they came up to me and they said, we had to fire your friend Jake because there was one cool guy in the art department the first season I was on there. And he was cool. And he had like wild dreads. and we found him on the back of the school bus on this set and he was smoking a joint so we had to fire him.

1:37:43It was these five white dodos in their suits, right? And I just look at him and I just said, and I was like, if I smoke a joint, will you fire me? Can I leave? And they were like, if you go work at a pharmacy, we'll sue you. No matter what job you get, we'll take your wages for the rest of your life and then we'll go after your family.

1:38:08I was like, cheers. They would like circle around me to check my weight when I came back, like from season to season. It was just, I think it was just really inspecting their product, you know. Yes. But that was, you know, I say that was a different time, but was it really? I think it was just like, it was like basically it was, there was no, there was no chill with it. It was completely fine to be that way. Yes. Like now they have to kind of pay lip service to being different. But I think, I think it is different. I don't know. people are like, do you think Hollywood's changed? I'm like, I don't know.

1:38:40I don't know. But, I mean, definitely in a lot of ways in the sense that it's not really a major player on the world stage anymore. True, true. Was there welfare on that show? Like a lot of these shows that I do, we have welfare. No. Was there – you're laughing. I guess there was no such thing. So there's no such thing as – no. No, there's someone that would come from the most – you know, this union for actors. I'd be like, everything all right? And you're like, yeah, okay. Okay, and that was it. But it was all right. There was nothing to report there. I mean, there's nothing to me other than a really kind of nasty set environment with a co-star that just, I think, kind of getting Shannon pushed out and then careful what you need to orchestrate because then you wind up with me.

1:39:29I think there's just, but I was also just like, I don't care. I've dealt with such big problems in my life. Right. Like this kind of like we're constantly being watched for drama on the set. And I actually didn't understand what had happened before because nobody talked about it when I got there. Like I had no idea what I was walking into. I did not know that all this like crazy stuff had been happening there, these bad energy, these dark. At the same time creating some what is amazing and super proud of. And I can separate this. the pride I have in my co-stars for creating and crafting a beautiful magical world for a lot of kids and a lot of adults and then once I entered for doing the same thing despite what was happening behind the scenes and the fact that that was not transmitted to the outer public when yes super proud of that yes yes um it was chaos wherever I went anywhere at that point tv fame was unlike anything you're in people's living rooms and that was a different a different level it's a different and people form a deep attachment.

1:40:27And this thing was a massive global hit. So wherever I went in the world, if I had any time off, chaos. Like chased out of the Vatican, people pulling at my hair, like surrounding me. I would just kind of like freeze and just try to like kind of like that. And sometimes I would have fun. But most of the time I was terrified. I saw someone posted a clip the other night of me being interviewed. And at this point, I also had to look so mainstream. I kind of completely forgotten that I was cool. Interesting. I was going here because you specifically said for Charmed, you had to soften your look to be accepted.

1:41:06Because I knew the knives would be out, that the fans would want, they wanted the person, the other character that they loved. So I decided to base my character kind of on I Love Lucy, Lucille Ball. What if she was young and in this situation, just kind of like lovable, like kind of goofy and soft and pitch my voice higher? and be non-threatening because I was scary to people, you know, and did scary weird things. Yes. And there wasn't a lot of that then. There wasn't a lot of, like, acceptance of, you know. Now it's like not cool. Now it's just like, oh, hi. Hi, Ted. Fine. But at that point, like, still was, like, you know, not the done thing.

1:41:47And, you know, during that period, all of a sudden, like, before I would dress myself if I ever had to go to an event or kind of do my own makeup or things like that. And then during that whole period that I was on that show, it all changed. All of a sudden you had to have a stylist. You had to pay$6 ,000 a month to a stylist. And they would get clothes sent for you. And then from those clothes that weren't anything you would ever normally wear, and I would say, oh, I like that. And they'd be like, oh, that's too editorial, meaning too edgy in fashion. This is red carpet. And then they would put globs of makeup and a giant helmet hair.

1:42:21And I would just be – and after they would spend hours doing this, I'd send the cars there, and I would look in the mirror and be like, and, like, you have to go. There's, like, there's no more. I would be like, and I just got, and I started, you know, just not even noticing what I looked like. So there's a period after I did a movie. I met this director. We fell, for a year, we worked on this screen, like, you know, this role, this character, and we fell in love much before the movie. But all of a sudden, doing the movie, not realizing that the spin doctor who controlled the media was putting all the stuff out that we were, like, having sex in the trailer.

1:43:01And I was like, what? And that we met and fallen in love on set. And I was like, no, this is not how this whole thing went down. Interesting. At all. Am I okay to name the director? Yeah, to Robert. This is Robert Rodriguez. Exactly. Who I think is a phenomenal director. most of the stories I read is that you two met not met but you two began your relationship on set so that's it a year before that um him his his uh separated wife and I were all sitting in my living room in my house so no it did not go down like that at all look at that but I still um I I mean you know the oldest line in the book that you know she lives in a house over here and I live over here and she's much older and we live separate lives and we work together but that's it.

1:43:48You know, I didn't realize like the married man, every fucking fake thing in the book. But there was some truth to it but also not. But I also had never, I think sometimes people come to you when you're very lost. And at that point I'd been four and a half years on a show from, I was somebody else far more time than I was myself and obviously had a lifetime of stuff that I had no time to process or deal with. And then it was just survival. and elegant survival, if you will. Yes. With some cool stunts. And there was fun. I definitely had fun moments, for sure. But then I was very proud of that role.

1:44:20But in the middle of filming, he sold it to the only person who distributed his films before. He sold it to Loser Weinstein for distribution in the middle of filming. Wow. And I was like, and then basically what happened is I'm now going down the red carpet with this loser's arm around me. And they used that to put blast the media forever see why if she'd been assaulted so many years before would she be okay with me going down the red carpet with her arm around me because how does that whole how does that moment happen because all right he sells the movie that's one thing he spun it as like uh we can have our revenge on we we can have our revenge on him but he you know he was also very um I've never, like at one point, I actually said to him, like when, like just that the verbal abuse was wild.

1:45:15My father absolutely despised him. Okay. But he bought my sister a car and he bought off of it. Like kind of, it's a thing they do. It follows a very typical pattern with people that like kind of get isolated from your family and friends. So you get isolated from, you know, they tell you they're controlling your career now or your opportunity. and then they do something really diabolical like that and then spin it as a good thing for you and you're like, you're just stuck and then you're going to get sued and never work again if you don't show up for work, what do you do? I started that movie, I don't know Stones very well, but I started like at a healthy weight and I got so thin on that movie just of stress and like it was just like so different than the reality of what was like really happening.

1:46:03And then also I had been, And that was the last time I did. I felt like wildly out of control and love with that person. But by the time, like that, I was like.

1:46:16And I think at that point, I was just after, you know, we broke up, I was like, I never want to be out of control and love with anybody again. Like it was too. I thought I found a safe haven. Wasn't safe. Yeah. Wasn't safe. the doing the red carpet that I can't imagine because that was the first time that you had then seen Weinstein I seen him again about a year after it originally happened I was at the Independent Spirit Awards I see his picture now I'm so young so little round face I had a little flower behind my ear, and I remember seeing him, and I started, like, shaking, and I threw up in a trash can outside, and, like, it was just this panic.

1:47:09And then I didn't, but, like, you know, believe me, not a day, almost a day went by if I was outside, you know, in Hollywood where people weren't saying stuff to me or taunting me or, you know, making me feel it while I was extremely famous. Yeah, that juxtaposition was very strange. And I always was like, I know the quality level of work I am capable of doing and should be doing. And then right after the Planet Terror, apt movie title, I did a movie called Death Proof with Quentin Tarantino. Yes. It was part of this kind of double feature thing. And Quentin, I guess to his credit, is the only one who actually did say, yes, I knew about it.

1:47:51I knew that that had happened to her. You know, it affected, you know, the way people behind the scenes treated me. But also, and I think Shannon Doherty could speak to this or spoke to this, like it affected how when the media runs a narrative about you, it's like how the person at the grocery store treats you, how the random man who thinks he can touch you can treat you because you're portrayed a certain way. How people are like, oh, she must be like this. So like anywhere was like it was very it's like operating in the world with this this whole fake construct of who you are. So I just stopped trying.

1:48:28I just was like I did feel alive. I had friends in Berlin. I had friends in other countries. And when I went there, I could feel like I was like like a real person. Yes. You know what's so incredibly sad, though, is that this is now so this this person that we're talking about here is so foreign to. 13 year old, 12 year old, 10 year old. Rosa. So lost. Yes. So lost. Yes. What the allegations were against children of God are not bad. A lot of these are horrific. But the way that you're describing what's happening to you in Hollywood, you could argue it's just as horrific. You know, it's just as – it's similar to a cult, you know, as we started to describe the characteristics of a cult.

1:49:20And especially when I was looking at it, charismatic manipulation, coercion, et cetera. So I see the parallels. I see it. And you now fall, find yourself in yet again another one. So then I'm on the Tarantino movie, and it was very much that. Okay. That's when it was like I was on that set, and I would just be seeing things, and just like, ugh, the arrogance and the, ugh. I just was like, it was almost like this alarm was going off in my head, and it was like me trying to get back into me, and it was like, wake up. And I would be in the take breaks, you know, be sitting there between camera setups and it'd be like this alarm.

1:50:03And I was just like kind of like so zombied at that point. I was like, wake up, wake up. You hate this. Wake up. You don't like this. Wake up, wake up. And I was like. and then you know I went through a few years after that where I uh I I woke up and when I woke up I woke up I think to years and years suppressed anger and very much put the exactly as you did put it together that this was far worse than the cult I grew up in and the thing is movements don't happen in a vacuum it's like now all of a sudden you wake up one day like what like there has to be events and someone like really shaking the power structure from the ground.

1:50:46My thing, I called it, I even trademarked it, called the cultural reset. The cultural reset. I just thought not like, and I'd always thought my thing was I want to glitch the matrix. I want to disrupt the timeline somehow, some way. But I knew I had to bide my time. And gosh, talk about time. So is that 20 years? Over. Over 20 years. And he's, you know, yeah, over 20 years. So then I played, at that point, the stories with NBC and the New York Times. And for one year, I'm managing, like, helping the New York Times find sources, women to talk, getting them documents, playing. And for quite a while, I knew what I know is, like, top male egos at the top of media empires.

1:51:38So I played these two guys in a war with each other because I knew nobody's going to be like, you know, we need to do the right thing and help out society. No. But I can get them in a pissing contest. And then I can get them too deep into it, invested in it, that they can't back out. And the way I did it was for two years in advance of talking to them, I started making things go viral every three weeks. And how I would do it is I would write an open letter. Dear Hollywood. Dear this company. Dear this. Dear whatever it was. And I would basically do this, and I would publish it on Twitter. And within the night, it would go viral in the U.S., then it would hit Europe, then it would go to Asia and circle back around.

1:52:15And what it really was was me rattling the cage of the power structure. And they were like, what the—and it was really someone from inside the hen house. Yes. It was very, very planned. And at that point, what happened was they were really running with the Trump, grabbing by the pussy all over the media. And I thought, ah, this is a good time. They painted themselves as so upright and all the people in Hollywood were just up in arms about Trump and the audio tape. And I was like, oh, you think that's bad? I didn't know the level of the other stuff there or wherever either. But I was like, oh, you think that's really bad?

1:52:53Guess what? Okay, so I was doing all these things simultaneously, setting up the strategy, setting up the structure, pretending I had a massive army. It was just me, my crazy ass smoking a joint at night being like, oh. Like, oh. And just pushing it through. Next thing I know, I'm the poster girl for a movement that I was like, well, okay. I thought it was a communication tool. I've always been language-based. I was like, oh, that's cool. There's never been a good way to talk about this before. You don't have to get drunk and get sad and say something to somebody. And you could just say, did this happen to you?

1:53:34Me too. Okay, now I know the level of your pain and what you've been through. Now we can just move on with our life. You know, we don't have to go deep into it. I thought as a communication tool, this is genius. There's a big company called E! And they produced the Kardashians show at that time. That was on them. And I thought, oh, counter-programming. I'll get the Kardashian producers to produce a documentary on me. And the way I sold it was, I went there and I was like, in three weeks, I have a book, an album called Planet Nine. This is coming out. I'm giving a major speech here and this and that.

1:54:04I didn't tell them what it was. They never would have agreed. And they're like, oh, my God, amazing. And the next thing they know, they're basically in real time shooting this documentary titled Citizen Rose. It's on Amazon. And in real time, this whole situation unfolding. And I just kind of knew I needed someone as well as possible to document it because there was no way that I could remember. It was just – It was insane. Yeah. That's the best word to describe. Insane. It's insane. It was insane. Cut to months later, I replace – they have me replace Senator Bernie Sanders as the keynote piece.

1:54:41People are like, why is he – bear – opening the women's march convention in Detroit? So they got me. I had to give this giant speech that's televised globally. They've scrubbed a lot of it from the internet as they do. So as I step on stage, I'm like, what are you going to do? I went, and I just like this portal lifted off my head, and I gave a speech. It was so intense, so off the cuff. I had these 20 ,000 or 30 ,000 women standing on their feet with their entire fist raised in the air. And then by the time I was in the car, breaking news, Rose McGowan going to be arrested on drug charges. She had cocaine in her wallet.

1:55:26I was like, I smoked a lot of weed. but uh and i've certainly done that but not on that plane not to there not that day why would i anyway beyond that i was like the fuck and i so it was kind of like this lifted up and cut it down though i saw the kind of orchestration and i'm like gotta be kidding me so he was on trial at same time i was on trial and so it turned out like and what was weird was that i'd already done a movie set like in a courthouse. I'd already been in that seat. I'd already heard it said these lines. But now it's for real. The lawyer that I paid all this money to disappeared the day before I had to appear because he was, you know, all of it.

1:56:11So I hired this small town attorney from across the street. It just felt like this entire, again, like that, a farce, like everybody there, everybody single person in there at the highest level 99.9 paid off to be there and do this so we're all acting they're all acting what were you facing what was the crew 10 years 10 years i'm in this courthouse and i'm just like and i actually at that point it just i had wanted to look like you know i just left my body it was and and it was a small voice inside of me that just said, can someone call cut? Can someone just say cut? Because I was like, this is all theater.

1:56:59Can someone just please say cut? Yeah. Yeah. And this is so profound because this is happening simultaneously. to someone who is as I can 1 ,000 people like did somebody verify it I'm like my body verified it I was there they were there right and nobody would endure it and so many of that narrative she's doing it to get famous like bitch I was famous what the hell are you talking about in the case in your court yeah I got a case what then happens I wear this really sick jacket archival new glare from the 80s these kind of power shoulders just like kind of fuchsia pink and it has these like slashes in it like a panther cut it and the buttons are like kind of like a panther's claws and I was like let's go bitches and they let me they let this bitch go I don't know what it was basically I had to sign something I said yes I'm guilty but I'm not guilty I don't know I don't know what the but the small town lawyer did better for me than the guy that ran off with 200k look at that And so a lot of times I get judged by like she said something like this during this period or she said something like that.

1:58:15I'm like I was obviously imperfect. I don't know who could have navigated all that with no real help. Everybody that I was working with that was taking money from me or making money from anything I was doing was like verified later as being like double agents with him and his group. It was not just him. It was like all the people at the highest levels. The woman that was one of the biggest women's rights lawyers in California, a very famous one, her daughter, whom I've never met, who represented all these women going after CEOs for this or that. These poor women that get ensnared by them. And then she was secretly working with him to destroy me in the media, like the document that she sent him to audition for the job, if you will.

1:59:04Look at this. I know the Rose McGowans of this world. Something like, I'll be only so happy to destroy her type, you know, paraphrasing. Wild. You know what's poetic about this, though, is that in one part of the world, here you are getting off with the small town attorney. Right. Right. On the other side, he doesn't get off with the big time attorneys. Was there a moment where you saw the tide begin to shift, the public opinion tide begin to shift? Or not was there a moment where you saw it because clearly you saw it. But how did you feel when public opinion began to shift on Harvey Weinstein?

1:59:47I don't know. See, that was also, again, for me, like on the ground, on the streets. I went to India during that time. I was here. I would walk down the street. I remember being by the Barbican and this homeless guy like giving me a salute. And I keep going all over the world. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. But from the fancy people at the highest levels or the famous people or culture people, like no. That was crickets or character assassination of me. Was it? But the people on the street worldwide, yes, they saw. They understood. But even at this time? I don't know. I opted out. I stopped.

2:00:28I was just like, peace. And then I just started seeing how many were profiting from kind of, I consider it my pro bono, my free work on behalf of kind of society in a way. All right. And profiting how so? Like, I did a favor and was a guest on a podcast when the verdict came out that he was, that loser Weinstein was guilty. I didn't know there were cameras in there, and that show had already been sold to HBO as a series. Oh, my goodness. That person profited. My brother-in-law was, they were, and my sister were at my house in Los Angeles. He came out of the bathroom at my house at three in the morning, naked, and he's like, there's a woman standing there in all black, and she's holding computer drives in her hand.

2:01:13Wow. There was 125 pages of my book stolen before it was published. And again, the book didn't really have anything to do with him. He was one of the stories, but to illustrate a different point. And she said, oh, I'm her assistant. She needed some drives. And there was like a black car outside, the lights off, an SUV that all blacked out. And she was wearing like some movie, like a full-on cat suit kind of thing while I was writing my book towards the end of it. And while I was working so hard playing this media empire to get the story done, I was also in fake negotiations to buy my silence, to not put out my book.

2:01:54But I was like, my book doesn't really have that much to do with you, and I'm not even naming you in it because your ugly name. And this was negotiations with him. So he was what? Offering you? Through his lawyer. But my lawyer, who I had to pay, I believe it was$985 an hour to, was also secretly working with him. So it was all. I see. I see. And he thought there was a lot of your book that was about him. So the idea was. I mean, they got the drives. So they got that one part. And I guess that freaked him out enough. But I don't know why that was any worse than, like, really the articles or the other women, the other brave women that came forward with.

2:02:31I was like – I didn't want – in fact, HarperCollins had moved my time of the release up. It was supposed to be later. And I was like, no, I wanted breathing room from the trial. But they mashed it together. Right. For the publicity. I guess. Yeah. I have to state this, that Harvey Weinstein is currently serving 16 years in prison for three counts of rape in California. And he's currently 73. Do you believe justice was served?

2:03:07I would love to see a picture of him in prison. I suspect he's been in a mansion in Connecticut. That's my theory. I don't know if he's ever spent a day in prison. Oh, wow. Hollywood, baby. I don't know. Maybe. I mean, you blew my mind on that because, yeah, I haven't seen one. Not that I can recall. I haven't seen one. I really would have loved, I would love to still have some kind of career to be able to do and do something in the arts and something creative again. I've never, for now the majority of my, more of my life than not, have had this warthog from hell on my back. And buying off public's perception of me, maybe not everybody would like me if they met me.

2:03:53That's fine. But I think you might. Yes. I think you might. Yes. What do you think the public's perception is of you? I mean, I would be confused. There are, you know, people that are kind of like deep special interests that really get kind of, they've been with me all along and connected. And there's some really beautiful and amazing humans out there. I think, you know, there's, and this is also totally fine too, the crowd that just loves some of the movies and things that I've done and been in. which like once they lay them out, I'm like, oh, that's actually pretty impressive. They just want to love those characters and that fictional world.

2:04:32I love that too. That's great. Keep that safe space. I think, you know, when I walk in somewhere, like, oh, that's the Me Too woman. I'm like, yo, I thought it was a language tool, not like this. Once I really realized that I was being used to kind of cause chaos between men and women, Like on a media level, like use me as the thing, like the focal point of people's dislike for societal change. That wasn't my thing. And I always said that from the beginning. That was something that by definition happened to me. So what I did was bounce. You said, I'm gone. I was like. And not just gone from Hollywood.

2:05:17I'm gone from the United States. I just thought my father lived for many, many years, over 30 years on the west coast of Mexico. And so I've been going there since, you know, I was like 17. I went to the jungle. I went to the jungle ocean and I kind of thought and then COVID hit. Okay. And I thought I was just in a complete, at that point, I wanted a different reality. I didn't want anything to do with Rose McGowan. For one year, 2020 was actually, I know it was really hard and horrible for a lot of people. That was actually the best year of my life. Was it? Because, as an adult, because I had love, I had friends there, I had my little dog, I was on a beach, and nobody could travel there for quite a while, I was actually safe.

2:06:08Yeah. So then by the end of 2021? I got wildly sick, but I didn't know in what way. And I didn't know what was happening to me. My mind was compromised. I was glitching. I was, like, losing the ability to speak. The beauty that I kind of always had was gone. And I was, like, just that wasn't, I was a different, any sound, the sound of my dog's tag could make me fall to the ground and scream and rock. Everything hurt, like, everything. And I looked kind of, like, honestly, end-stage AIDS patient. And I then got something. I noticed that, like, all of a sudden I had my bank account had been wiped out.

2:06:52My identity from the credit system in the U.S. is gone. They don't exist. Because that's a very typical boring whistleblower revenge tactics, right? It's like that's the thing. They're so boring. Truly. But you're – so no bank account? Nothing. I had$60. I was like after working for years and years and years, they wiped that. But what did really help me, my former co-star, Holly Marie Combs, she said, come and do a Comic-Con. And I looked terrible at this point. I was like gone. I was a lot better than I had been, but I was still not really – my processor was very, very slow. And I was kind of like – I just looked kind of shell-shocked, which I was.

2:07:34And I started doing these even though I couldn't have an – I was signing autographs and meeting people. and that every 45 seconds or a minute a different person, a sweet person with just kind of a smiley face and happy that they're in their place where they feel safe, where they get to be kind of their special interest or dress how they want and it's like a safe zone for them. But also they're just transmitting kind of generally love to me. And these people, sweet loving nerds, held me up. and enough money that I could get some access to some medicine that has helped me somewhat. But really the indigenous stuff helped me the most.

2:08:18You could see how your early life prepared you for the next chapters of your life, if you can be prepared. There were some surprises and curveballs. For what happened. And who really brought me back is this beautiful man from London, from South London. From South London. Kid Bookie. I'd never heard of him. I would start, I had never, I would go on Instagram and I would kind of, they locked me out of my Facebook. They locked me out of X, whatever. And I'm like, okay. But I still had Instagram. So I would kind of watch people and I started, I'd never really done that. I would usually just post and then, but then I kind of stopped.

2:09:00And I, and he messaged me. It was like over about a year ago now. and I didn't know anything about him for something. I don't know why I actually engaged and responded. And it just somehow landed in my broken little brain. And he said, I would like to collaborate with you. And I was like, I knew he wasn't from any of the worlds I'd occupied in spaces before, so that felt safe. And I slowly started communicating with him. And then he sent me the track, but it wasn't until I was, So it was this summer. I was like, okay. I had not done anything. I had written anything. I hadn't even been able to barely kind of write posts.

2:09:42I couldn't, my brain stopped functioning. Nothing creatively. At all. I said, okay, come hell or high water, I'll get there. And I did. And I got, by August, I got to that South London studio. And I got to the studio and I realized I'd been listening to his half of the track that he'd already recorded his part of. and I had no words that came to me and I was so scared. I was so scared. And I said, give me 10 minutes. And I went and I go, I need a piece of paper. And I found an old manual for engineering and I ripped out a page of it. And I just went like, please, like, you know, God of creativity, open the portal, whatever.

2:10:23I was like, help me. And all of a sudden it just like, and like what I want to say and what I wanted to say was how really it's my feelings for the world and people out there because I used to wonder for so long. When I was on TV, I was like, or in the movies, I was like, who's on the other side of the screen? I really would like to meet them. We're just talked about them as fans or blocks or audience members or this box office or that. But these are like, who's there? Because I'm trapped behind here with this, but I always was so curious about all these other lives. And I finally, in these past few years, like being able physically strong enough bit by bit to do these comic cons and to connect with people i've gotten to meet a great bunch of these people and it's been like honestly how you're kind of intertwined with their lives and their families and what they've gone through or just that they like you and they think that's cool all of this fantastic i am so proud of this track yes and it wasn't until i got to the sea that day i actually said oh by the way what is this track called Because I was like, wait, it just said track.

2:11:27And I said, oh, it's called Rose McGowan. And since you agreed, it's Rose McGowan featuring Rose McGowan. I was like. Which I have to say, I have heard. I am like so grateful that you heard it. It is. It is truly, truly. We were just talking to Kid Bookie a second ago off camera. I think it's exceptional. And all of my crew, we thought it was. I mean, that's high bar. We thought it was. It is right. And you know what I think, what I love so much about it is that it is unexpected. To me, it's unexpected. And that's the most pleasant. Those are some of the most pleasant things in life, I think, when it's unexpected and you get that nice treat.

2:12:07That's exactly what it is. There's no machine behind it. There's no, like, setting anything up. It was just, like, through space and time and technology and thought, we connected on some frequency. And I heard his call and I answered. And you delivered. But it sounds like he did more for you than put you on a track. Oh, yeah. He's opened up. Would you say that he's opened up your creativity again? Gave me the space and safety and love for it to even come out. What would you tell – because we talked about 12-year-old. So I can't get that image out now, 12-year-old, all in black. I think she was seeing her future.

2:12:54What would you... She was sitting on a beach in that photo that you showed me. So 12-year-old Rose. What would you... If we can go back, you could sit next to her on that beach, what would you tell her? That, um... Not just remember who you are. Bookie said this to me. Now it's time to embody who you are. and that Rosa, being soft, has value. And to find people that you can be around that you don't have to wear the hard shell for, that if your body starts not liking a situation, listen to it. Don't force it to be in situations. Or that, you know, you might get diagnosed with autism, but you're going to hang up on the guy before he gives you the final diagnosis because you don't like labels.

2:13:48and it explains a lot about how you were and why you didn't understand how regular society operated and why your value system was different and you really actually might be 73 ,312 and that's cool too good on you keep singing it's been a real honor Paul C. Brunson I tell you what this has been a blessing we are not over yet, we're just about over we are not over yet I think the fullness of the story to me is so – it's like what you've done is you've taken all these different pieces of this puzzle and you've put it all together for me now. And I finally get it. And I'll say I think I was like millions of us who were fans, who watched from the outside and had no idea what you were going through.

2:14:46and oh god I wish we did you know I will say that what you have shown through your story is not just resilience not just courage but pure strength and I even think back to I keep going back to 12 year old you I don't know why I keep gravitating to 12 year old you and I keep wanting to call you Rosa at 12? I would love to be able to go by my real name. And I don't know how to make that shift. I said that to someone, and they're like, it's too late for you now. You can't do that. And I thought, but that's my name. But I would imagine in Mexico, what do they call you? Oh, everyone calls me Rosa. They call you Rosa.

2:15:24Yeah. Yes, yes. You are Rosa. Mi nombre es Rosa Ariana. That is it. That is you. I might just have to call you Rosa. I would really greatly appreciate it. The more people call me Rosa, the happier I could be. Look at that. Because then I can figure out how to actually connect, like you said, all the puzzle pieces together. And I'm proud of Rose McGowan, but that's a shell that I can put up and be like, job well done. You did good, kid. But we can be us now, and maybe we can fuse. That'll happen on the stage play. All right. I love it. Final question. Thank you. Everyone gets it. That is, you've had incredible, incredible conversations throughout your life.

2:16:04If you could think about the one that is the most memorable, who was it with and what did you learn?

2:16:17Who was it with and what did I learn? Okay, it was with a tree. Okay. You're the first person to ever say, could be the last person to ever say, it was with the tree, but I hear you though. Well, because it was after a hurricane where I live, and there's these beautiful sacred trees to the Maya called ceibas, C-E-I-B-A. And there's a beautiful story about them like this, but I'd only seen them from the top, and they grow together, these lovers intertwined, right? Massive. And their roots were said to go down to the underworld to absorb the darkness and transmit it to light on top. and after at this hurricane, giant one like the size of the base is like the size of the studio.

2:17:04It's completely out of the earth and as I'd suspected, all the roots talked to each other and I sat there quite sad and like upset that it had been uprooted and I know the sounds but as we've, you know, but it said it was always meant to be this story And the roots down there were all holding on. And you know what? The light's on top. Except for it said it in Spanish. But beautiful in English and very poetic as well. I've greatly appreciated this. I am truly honored that you came. And I'm very, very excited about the next chapters, plural. I think that what you have amassed in terms of lived experience is what most people will never participate in.

2:18:02They'll never realize. But all of that, I have to believe, is for something. And what you've done thus far, you can see the results of it. But I think what is coming, the return is going to be even greater. So I cannot wait. I cannot wait. and from this moment on, you forever will be Rosa. Rosa. I think some of actually what you said might be some of the most important connections, dot connections that I hadn't made. So thinking about, yes, the tree, I think some of what you said put a context for certain things that I've gone through and it was the final dot connection I needed to perceive it and understand it.

2:18:48so I think it might be you Paul C. Brunson and I thank you for that well I thank you you are beyond a superstar beyond a superstar my honor thank you so much Rosa she always can see the beauty in the moment I think that is such an impressive characteristic to embody and it's something we can all learn from and that is it's not just seeing the silver lining but it's actually taking a moment to appreciate what it is that you do have. And I think it's beautiful. I didn't realize that she was living under life-threatening conditions. And that's my ignorance. I should have known if you're going against the machine that there's repercussions.

2:19:37Living under this threat but still continued, still persevered. That's power. We could do a podcast series just on year 13 to 14 of her life. And what she told us, I'm sure we didn't even have the full, full, full, full details on. But you think of the resilience that someone has to, you know, someone must possess in order to be able to live through what she's lived through and then see the beauty and then pull the lessons. You know, you think about when I asked her about what she would tell the 12-year-old. In essence, she's saying, see the beauty in life. She didn't say anything about don't go to Hollywood.

2:20:22Don't, you know, engage with these people. It was more so just open up your eyes to the beauty of the world, especially with, I think, Gen Z, Gen Alpha that my boys are a part of. There's a real celebration against authenticity, speaking truth to power, and that is Rose McGowan.