Shirley Ballas on "Disastrous Relationships" And The Dark Side Of Strictly!

30:54Anyway, he came to Sammy and he said, I'd like to employ you and bring you to Texas to teach my partner and I and meet my family. Little did I know at the time, his father invented the weed eater, the strimmer that cuts the weeds from around the trees. Oh, really? And the blowers, you know, the blowers that you use. That was father, George Charles Ballasenia. He was one who invented that from a popcorn can. multi multi-millionaire family anyway we made the trip Corky came from this family of five brothers and sisters and a mum and a dad and it was a very warm family and Sammy didn't want to go out for dinner with him he just wanted to do his job go home at night watch his videos but he said oh take my wife you see and Corky took me everywhere and we laughed and we danced and And there seemed to be like an attraction to him and I.

31:50And then I thought I'd fallen in love with the man of my dreams. And so Sammy never came out at all, not one evening. So for seven days and nights after work, I'd get dressed, go out, meet his family, go here, go there. Saw this lifestyle that I thought. In another country. In another country. Yeah, that you'd never been to, never visited. And you could say my head was turned. And I came home and Corky and I stayed in touch long distance. Sometimes he flew over to England and I was sneaking about and it was just all so wrong. But as a young person back then, I was searching for this feeling, this love that I probably never got from my own father.

32:32And Sammy was a bit like a dad feeling. It felt a bit like that, you know, like I say, we didn't have this nurtured love relationship. and then I got this attraction and then I ran away, if you like, when I was 23. I left everything, Great Britain, the lot. It lasted one year with this dating to and from and the following year I left. I told Sammy I was in love with somebody else and it was all drama and lots of heartbreak and my mother who just was advising me not to go, that, you know, was stable, had a nice home. We were on a great path. We were doing so well. We were at the top of the industry.

33:11Yes. And then I suddenly left. I thought I didn't want to dance anymore. I wanted this lifestyle with this man. Okay. Now, did you feel any shame in that period of time, you know, when you and Corky began your relationship? Because you were still married to Sammy. Corky, he doesn't have a – he was not in a relationship. He was in a relationship with his partner. Oh, he was? Yeah, Petria Lockie. But she was about 10 years older than him. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, he was in a relationship as well. So he was cheating as well. Yeah. Okay, so I would imagine there was a sense of excitement. It was. It would be hard to explain to you.

33:56It was just like this warm, fuzzy feeling. But at the same time, there was deceit that was going on. And that was just didn't sit well with me. and that's why I decided to tell Sammy. I told him face-to-face, we were in Germany at a dance camp and I told him I've met somebody, I'm in love with this man. Now, I told Sammy about six weeks before our first world championship. So we won the British championship. We were destined to become the world championship winners and Sammy said, well, if you give up the boyfriend, the lover, we can move on, forget everything and win our world championship. Really?

34:35And Corky said, if you stay, I won't be here when you do that world championship. So here we go, another pivotal moment. Yes. Which decision should I take? Should I give up Corky and get my world championship? Or shall I leave and go, you know, or should I stay? Should I go? Should I stay? And also, if you give up Corky, not only do you get your world championship, but you get what your mother wants. You get what society is telling you to keep. what society is telling you is best for you. Yes. Yeah, and I decided to go. So I became every champion except the world champion. And I could have finangled that and got that world championship, but even I had better morals than that and I didn't.

35:24I left with a big long fur coat on and off I went to America thinking to myself, I'm in love. this is what I want. Now when I look back, I think to myself, Sammy and I never had any holidays. We never had any love time. You know, it was never just about him and I. There was always an entourage of people. You know, Bob Dale was a big influence in our life and other people. It didn't stand a chance. That love relationship didn't stand a chance. And then when this other opportunity came along I took it and three months after being with Corky I knew I'd made a mistake right but even before that Shirley is that one thing that I definitely now know about you is that you are focused I'm the most focused person you'll ever come across so I can imagine it was very you contemplated that world championship quite a bit do you have any regrets not staying with Sammy, not just to maintain the relationship, but to get that world championship?

36:29You know, I have a son with Corky and Sammy has a beautiful boy with his wife, Barbara, called Samuel. If I hadn't have taken that road, he wouldn't have that beautiful boy who's a fantastic opera singer and is destined to go to the top of the opera. He wouldn't have that, Sammy. And I wouldn't have my son, Mark. But if you were to remove the children out of it, really I had regrets about leaving Sammy I tried to go back to Sammy and he'd already met Barbara and he didn't want to take that chance and he said no you were a wallflower when I met you and you'll always be a wallflower so and that's where that wallflower stuck with me that one line that he said you know because he then went on in a short space of time with Barbara to go back into his position he was second in the world somebody else had taken first now because we left but he was second and then he was winning major championships with her and I had to start from scratch so I didn't know what to do Corky had an eye for the ladies shall we put it like that super rich family bit of the bratty behavior if you like you know driving a Mercedes Benz and we were going to parties all the time with hat pins and I thought this is not for me I need to go back to teaching i need to get some reality in my life that lifestyle that rich lifestyle was not who i was and also from what i understand they lived in texas texas and and the wealthy texas lifestyle is different oh it was big brash and bold yes they lived on 10 acres in the most fun their own uh helicopter pad you know their own hotel the west chase hilton they owned the Westchase Hilton Hotel and everything, you know, it was like I say, it was mega.

38:19But in a short space of time, I knew I'd made a mistake. It wasn't for me. But then Sammy didn't want me back. And when I called my mother, she said, you made your bed, you have to lie in it. You have to figure this one out. I cannot tell you at, you know, 22, 23 years of age, what your next step is. I don't know. So there was tears and with myself and fighting with my inside at this now still young age, young adult now, past those teenage years that I never had, that most people would be learning about love relationships. You know, I'm engaged, I'm married, and now I'm in this relationship with this other man.

38:57And I decided I... And then I'm sorry, Shirley, because you said three months after you moved, you realized it was a mistake. How did you know it was a mistake? What was the... Because he had an eye for the ladies. Okay. I'll say it politely. Okay. And he was young, and why not? Why not? But I think, and this is just my assumption, so if he's listening, Corky, I hope he didn't take this the wrong way. I think in the end his dad said to him, Mr. Ballas, whom I adore and loved, and he was a great mentor for me, you've brought this girl from England. She's given up her marriage for you. She's given up her career for you.

39:39The best thing you could do is honour this relationship. That's what I think happened. It was never said, but it was the feeling I got. And then we got married, you know, barely 23. Wow. So even after you knew it was a mistake, you still got married? Yeah. Started to teach him to dance. He was a food and beverage director for his father, the Westchase Hilton. Plus he had all the Pac-Man machines all around Houston, drove a nice car. He was flashy. He was good looking. He dressed well in Zinelli slacks and monogram shirts. Even his sheets were monogrammed and the pillowcases were monogrammed. Everything was monogrammed.

40:17That's what I remember. And I thought I'm going to have to teach him from scratch how to be a professional dancer. He was an amateur pro-am dancer. Hardest job I ever did. But the bottom line to that is we did get married. We started that journey. Sammy now is second in the world as a professional. And I'm at the very, very, very beginning. and I have to climb that tree again. And in 1995, Corky and I won that British Professional Latin American Championship and Sammy was second. Look at that. Look at that. I won in 83, came back in 95 and 96 to win with a boy that nobody believed in. And I think even though Corky and I have had a lot of ups and downs throughout the years, he said I was the best teacher that he ever had.

41:07and you know he owes a lot to me we moved to England we left Texas again another pivoting moment I knew that we couldn't make it as dancers if we did not live in Great Britain representing Great Britain and why is that just the way the politics were just the way that you know that what I'd learned from Sammy is you need to be in with the swim if you ever really want a chance of winning the world has changed now but back then we were the capital we had all the best dancers in the world so you know doing this journey again like this and now I've got married just barely and then I get pregnant um was using contraception and found out I was pregnant I remember calling my mother and she went oh my god you're not they were her first words out of her mouth I laugh at that now because that's my mom so now I'm navigating a new lifestyle with a new husband pregnant wanting to be back in the final or the semi-final in a world that I realized I loved and now so I then to cut the long story short we became the United States champion I think we won that 10 times and then when Mark was four and in 1990 I said to Corky if you really want a shot at the big time we'll have to move back to Great Britain but a beautiful home in Katy we both drove nice cars I was working teaching he was doing his thing and that's what we did we gave it all up but I got Corky into teaching and we moved back to England we started from scratch in a little two up and two down in Mitchum which for Corky if you could imagine 10 acres helicopter pad all the money in the world to a two up and two down you know we barely had enough money we had to really stop with a four-year-old and my mother in tow because she was taking care and my son.

42:58Yeah. And also too is with that substantial, I didn't realize there was a substantial loss of wealth. So I would imagine psychologically that has to weigh on him as well. But Corky it did. For me it didn't, but for him it did. Yes. And his other brother and sisters, I would say, you know, it took a minute to come to grips with that. Fortunately, they all had to get jobs, you know, because they all used to work for Ballas Enterprises, but then when that went, you know, away, They all had to get jobs. I just went back to my teaching. How much of that climb was about you wanting to beat Sammy versus you just wanting to win?

43:38I think I wanted to prove to myself and take the tools I'd learned with Sammy. It's much easier for a man to dance with a woman and go to the top than it is for a top class woman who'd won to take a beginner man back in. It was all sorts of things that go on in that scenario. Nobody believed in us. Everyone thought Corky was a joke. They treated him terribly. I write about that in my first autobiography. But he was resilient, Corky. I learned resilience from Corky. He was bulletproof. People were mean, said horrible things to him. But he used to have this bulletproof vest on. And he said, I can take this, Shirley.

44:17We can do it. You stick with me, Shirley. I'll take you places. That's what he used to say to me when he could barely put one foot in front of the other. So I admired that resilience in Corky. And I thought, well, if he thinks he can do this, maybe I can do that. And what I learned about, because it was more men than women, male ego, how do I get back into that system in Great Britain and navigate this career with this boy that can barely dance as a professional? He had experience. He could do flamenco dancing. His mother was a fantastic flamenco dancer. And his dad had a big studio with Fred Astaire.

44:52So he was familiar with dancing, but not at the level that I danced. And he stuck with it. He worked hard and he stuck with it. It was like climbing Kilimanjaro with no shoes on. Yes, yes. It's such an inspiring story because I see how resilient you are. But when we go back to even that period where you had just won the championship, you know, you mentioned that Corky had an eye. From what I understand, that was what was the demise of that relationship in particular. So were you aware of this throughout your marriage and still stayed? I was somewhat aware of it. Okay. And there was moments when I wanted to come back, but that wasn't possible.

45:43And then, of course, I got married and then I got pregnant very quickly after that. And I didn't want that child to be without a father. So I stayed in that marriage till my son was 15. And it was turbulent, if I put it like that. It was turbulent. Even now, Corky said he looks back and some of the mistakes that he made as a young man, he wishes that he could turn back the time. But you can't turn back time. and I think that I left Nigel and I left Sammy and basically I probably got what I deserved, do you know what I mean? So I don't think I'm put on planet Earth to have a relationship. Every relationship, even after that, was a disaster for me, ended up being a disaster.

46:27Even with my last boyfriend, I thought I'd found the one forever and, you know, that turned out also not to work. so I'm just going to focus on my grandson and my family and I'm going to try to start blocking out noise and start to find a little bit more insular for myself and just with a very small team around me but I think it's been a rocky life. Yes. Like I say, even at 65 I was going to have a big party and in the end I just decided that I would have it with my driver, George, my PA, Harry, and my mum. We'd have just this quiet, no-noise lunch at Selfridges with a little shop around Marks and Spencers.

47:17Yes. Then, you know, I just feel judged all the time, you know, even at this age, you know, so self-inflicted, I know. Well, I don't know about the self-inflicted part. Talking anything about me or, you know, my feelings, I tend to bottle them all, you know, until like somebody like yourself starts to talk about them. It feels more like a therapy session. And then it all comes to the surface. And then all I see is, like I say, is I'm up here and I look down at the mess I made. But then again, Sammy's partner, Barbara, who I chose that girl for him, believe it or not. She was my student. She went on to be, you know, multiple times open to the world.

48:05And then I look at these people who also got to experience the great heights that I'd experienced with Sammy, and I know it's strange, and I look and I think, well, you know, you had a part in that destiny, which I think sometimes people don't look at. They don't look at a decision or a choice you can make, even though you were the one that was cheating in a marriage, would have a profound effect on other people, went on to be mega superstars. So I quietly think about that to myself, even when these people criticize me or still remind me of the past. I think, you know, well, if I hadn't have done that, this, this, this, this wouldn't happen.

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50:43Like this presentation.

50:48Hey there, real quick, if you're enjoying this conversation, take a second to hit subscribe and tap the bell icon. It's a small click that makes a big difference. Thank you. All right, I'm going to get back into it. So then Mark played a role in you getting the job on Strictly. I would say it's solely down to the fact that he pushed me out of a comfort zone. Mark said to me at lunch one day, I hear Uncle Len, because we've known Len all our life. he was also one of my teachers, is leaving Strictly Come Dancing. I said, and where did you hear that? He said, on the grapevine, mum. Why don't you inquire and see?

51:27I said, no one's going to want a 57-year-old lady to go into TV who's never sat behind camera lights. He said, but how do you know if you don't try? Anyway, I was due to sit with Strictly Come Dancing over another student. It was actually AJ at the time talking about different talent because I find talent for all the shows around the world. to do with Strictly Dancing with the Stars around the world. And Leng's name came up and I said, well, I've heard that they might be leaving and they were a little bit coy. And I said, you know, it would be nice to think that one day perhaps you could have a woman in that role.

52:03And eventually they asked me, would I like to have an audition for that? And I said to Mark, should I, shouldn't I said, absolutely. I paid my own way over. Had the audition, which went horribly wrong. And what, because I've heard you say that this was a horrible audition. Horrible experience. What was the audition? Well, I flew in from LA. I had sciatic. I've had a bad back for 25 years. Had sciatic. I could barely walk one foot in front of the other. They made me all up. It was early in the morning, all the eyelashes and the hair and a long dress they sat me behind all these cameras green lights red lights I've never done that and then they sat next to me this huge human being which turned out to be Craig Revel Horwood and um I didn't know him either at all and then he just sat there you know and he you know how he does that's like this just Craig I'm more friendly and chitty chatty but I would sat there frozen it was freezing in the studio and up come the cameras and the lady said now we're going to throw a couple upon the screen you're 15 seconds to critique it you know what would you say in 15 seconds now I'm used to a 45 minute lesson where I can go from your feet to the top of your head I thought to myself I can do this I can do this and up there she comes Anne Whitacombe spinning in that yellow dress like a bird on the floor and this gentleman turned around to me goes we haven't got all week darling 15 seconds so I missed that one so I said well I'm so sorry I'm looking at the red and the green all the wrong cameras could we try somebody else and then it was gangnam style and uh I just failed miserably it was it was just a mess anyway they She called me graciously.

53:50She called me. Listen, how do you think you did? I said, to be honest, shit. Awful. Sorry for the language. But it was bad. Very bad. She said, could you change your airline tickets and come in for another audition? Tomorrow. In a pair of jeans and a blouse. One cameraman and me. And then they showed me something else and I sat up all night. Mark, of course, is in L.A., going through things and I nailed that one. Look at that. and the rest is history. And then I went back to LA. I'd done the best that I could do and I got the call when I was teaching in work and they said, we'd like to offer you the job.

54:27Couldn't believe it. My son was the first person I called and he could tell by my face, he goes, you got that job, didn't you, mum? And he's been, he dressed me. He gave me advice on how he thought I should dress and the devil wears Prada. I remember him saying to me those tailored suits and chic look, you know. Yes. So, and that's how that journey began because of him. Always been there for me in everything. I didn't realize how integral he was in you getting that role. Not just getting the role, but styling for the role, everything. Everything. And even after the first series, he said to me, now listen to me, mum.

55:05These dancers don't want to be British champions. He said, I switched my TV on to watch you. And even I was scared. He said, you've got those glasses, your face is too firm. the general public will never warm to you. And I'd signed a two-year contract, and he said, you're going to have to soften the edges. It was an ongoing process, because it was years and years of me trying to protect myself as that little vulnerable child. And I think gradually now I've gotten there. I've learnt to talk about your critique with a smile on my face, rather than saying, now, dear Paul, what on earth was that footwork?

55:43Paul, what are you doing with your feet? let's see what we can do so I think I've generally learned you know that they and I do give good firm feedback you know for the first six or seven weeks I'm quite quite firm but fair and kind and always as Mark says give them hope yes keep hope alive yeah keep hope alive so so now that was your career was blossoming but the media from what I understand was giving you a hard time especially in that 2017 year? I wouldn't say it was the media. I think now when I look back, it was the people that were selling their stories. My ex-husband sold his story for thousands and thousands and thousands and made me out to be this awful person.

56:29But back then, nobody knew who this person was, so nobody could really relate. Yes. So it didn't really have the effect that it would have like today, if you know what I mean. But now with Strictly being so big, I mean, you probably know the numbers better than me, but when I was looking at that, like, I'm still blown away at the size of Strictly. We're 54 % share of the TV. Look at that. Everybody who is watching live TV last year, we were 53 % to 54 % of all live TV. The nation loves this show. Absolutely. From the grandchildren to the grandparents to everybody in between. I'll get in a taxi and the man will say, don't tell anybody, Mrs.

57:11Ballast. I recognize you from the TV. You know, I watch, I watch, you know. So it's the nation's one of the last shows, live shows, to still be going on. Baubles, bangles and beads on a Saturday evening when the cold weather's coming. As soon as Strictly starts, we know we are the run up to Christmas. To Christmas. Yes, it is that season. It's that season, the cold season. We all come in the house. They can get a takeaway or cook their little things and have a glass of wine and get together. and talk about or criticise the armchair people that have watched it, you know, much longer than me, let's say.

57:47Yes. But do you feel like, okay, when that season comes, you're excited, but yet you know here comes the criticism as well? Does that wait on you? And I'll give you my take because this is actually my season too, Shirley. Okay. This is when Married at First Sight hits the air, right? And what I always feel is I feel excited. Married at First Sight is on air. We've worked all year for this. This is going to be incredible. But at the same time, I know, OK, here come the critics. Get this guy off TV. He shouldn't be on. Right. So I know it's coming, not just for me, but for everyone. Do you feel that same way with Strictly?

58:25I used to feel that way you know 2017 18 and 19 were some of the worst years of people doing stick figures with my face on and coffins and die you bitch and some of the worst trolling that I was just learning about I was not on social media so 2017 and 18 I'm just learning about this thing and about trolls I had no idea that was hard to navigate and for the thousands and thousands of wonderful compliments that I got. I'd focus on the negative ones. You've got bingo wings, you're wrinkled, you look too heavy, you've got no business. What do you know? I think that Louise did a very good move when she made me dance the samba on season 2017 to open the show and people could see that I could dance.

59:14And again, they've had the judges dance now on this opening number and quite a long number. I think over a minute I get to dance the samba and Motsy gets to do the rumba and Anton's doing his foxtrot and Craig's the host and we're going through the 70s, 80s and 90s era with all the boys. It's a fantastic opening, two new professionals and we're all going to be clamoured back on. We're not in those pods anymore. We're going to be sitting shoulder to shoulder at the judges. So I'll be able to touch Craig and Anton and Motsy. We'll be really, really close. So I think this year is going to prove to be iconic And of course, who wouldn't get excited about that?

59:52But I still have my own job. I'm running up to the international championships at the Royal Albert Hall in October. So I have all the competitive couples and then I'm working hard to get them where they need to go. And then I have the Strictly job. I literally have to switch a button, press a red button to light, camera, action. And then back to teaching the kids to get into the international, light, camera, action. So clearly you love doing Strictly. I love dance. I love music. I love watching people come on this show, getting all excited. You know, people need to remember I danced with a pro amateur.

1:00:30Yes. I danced with Corky. I know what it's like to be a professional and have a beginner amateur. Yes. I know what it's like. So when those people walk down the stairs, I go back to my memories when I started with Corky. Yes. So I've been there, I've done that, I've got the T-shirts. And, of course, I've watched my own son for over 20 years on his show. So, yeah, I get excited about that. I'm going in on a Saturday and we don't finish till the week before Christmas this year. So it's a full run and it's going to be an iconic show. When are you going to do it, by the way? I tell you what. You're next.

1:01:09I tell you what, Shirley. I am, you know, I love to dance. Wow. I love to dance, but I haven't danced in so long. You know, it's one of those where I think I let life just take me, you know. It runs away with you. Before you know it, you'll be my age. You have a beautiful ballroom neck. You've got turned out feet. So if you ever want to do it, just let us know, okay? I've turned out feet? Yes, I've got your little, see this foot? Certainly. It's not like this. That's a good thing. It's a good thing. A Latin. Yeah, maybe one day. Maybe one day. Maybe one day. Now, with Strictly being on air, clearly there's so many incredible celebrities that are on.

1:01:51But do you have that one celebrity you've always wanted to come on? I want Tom Jones to come on. Where is he? The love of my life. Or a person from the royal family. I haven't quite got there yet. Yes. But I think sometimes the celebrity comes on and I actually don't know them because, like, people didn't know me. I was at the top of my industry. Nobody knew who I was. So sometimes we all live in bubbles. You live in your bubble world. I live in my bubble world. Danny, Dyer and all these other ones, they all live in their own little bubbles. And then we get the opportunity to go into their different bubbles.

1:02:27And by the first few weeks, you're falling in love with people. Yes. You know, I'm already in love with little Ellie. You know, I'm following her all the time. That little girl is a ray of sunshine. Yes. You know, she's just, she's going to bring just such a beauty to that show. So many of them. I mean, we've got such an array this year. It is. It's going to be fantastic. It is a strong, this lineup is incredibly strong. And I can't even ask you to compare the lineups. Because it's one of those where each year just must be just rewarding to you. Well, who would have thought Bill Bailey would have won?

1:03:03He came down in his gold trousers week one and I looked at Motzi and I went, he did his chop, chop, chop and I turned to Motzi and said, oh, I'm not sure. He went on to win. You know why? He worked harder than everybody else. He studied his craft. He knew everything about my career. He knew everything about every dance he was doing. He was a musician and he just did the right amount of everything and the audience fell in love with him. So I was going to ask you, who was your biggest surprise over the years? Was he your biggest surprise? Bill Bailey was for sure. And then Kelvin Fletcher stepping in at the last minute for Jamie Lang.

1:03:38He wasn't even supposed to be on the show. He went on to win. And, of course, Giovanni with Rose and Chris McCausland last year, who would have thought, even Chris himself, and I'd done work with Chris before, and he thought he was going to last one or two weeks. He went on not only to finish the course but to win because the nation at the end of the day, this show doesn't belong to me or anybody else. It belongs to the nation and they get to vote and in the final they get to pick the winner. And I think that's how it should be. Yes, fair enough. Now, in your new book, what I've noticed is that you have talked about your mental health.

1:04:19I think you can tell from today that it's not always been great. If we can talk about your brother. Shirley, what happened with your brother? My brother was either very up or very down. It was not often on the line, you know, that stable line that we can say it was either below it. I've heard when we started off life before we moved on the housing estate, my brother was a very gentle soul. And I was the one always screaming and crying and wanting this and dancing around. My mother used to put me in the pram, strap me in and put me at the bottom of the yard. Because she said it was upside down doing somersaults in the pram.

1:04:56And my brother was really quite a gentle soul. Then we moved on the housing estate. I can't speak for him because he's since passed, but certain things went on in his life, you know, that were not great, which were communicated many, many years later. And I think it just, he had to toughen up, you know, became the tough guy. And they knew him as Kola, K-O-L-A, on the housing estate. He kept the drugs off. He kept other people safe. He was, he had a difficult life, I believe, as a child, different things that happened to him. And because of that, he grew up really quite tough. And he was quite tough on me.

1:05:36He was more like the dad in the household, even though there was only 18 months between us. But I really think if he hadn't been the way he was, I wouldn't be sitting here. Really? Yeah. Yeah. so I don't think he could control a lot of things that went on in his own life but he certainly controlled a lot that went on in my life and he didn't take like if I saw him across the field and he saw me and I'd be hanging with a few of the girls I'd see him legging in his big bovver boots and he'd be legging and I'd run home and lock myself in the bathroom and he goes and that's where you'll stay you will not hang out on street corners you will make something of yourself that's what rings in my ears Would you say your brother saved you?

1:06:23Yeah, I do Yeah, oh, oh, there they go Yeah, he did He was a great brother He was Little Mary And somehow when he was 43, 44 He got poorly, lived in the north of England I lived in the south And I remember my mum going to stay with him She was with him about six weeks because he seemed very low, he lost a lot of weight. We never really got to the root cause of... I think maybe, if I could just say, his past was catching up with him, maybe. And I just think he just somehow went into a dark hole. The thing is, with depression and mental health, I knew nothing about that. I was busy, I had my son, I had my husband, my mother lived with me, and somebody else's two children that I raised.

1:07:19So life was busy and I didn't stop to go up there. My mother did. Again, she wasn't the great communicator. So she didn't say you need to stop everything, you need to come up here, you know. Yes, yes. Yeah, he faded fast and then there was just one time where my son was singing at St Paul's Church and I said to my mum, brother, why don't you come up for the weekend? He goes, no, I'm feeling much better. Let mum go. And she went and he took his own life that weekend. And so it was just, it was tragic. It was sudden. It was, you can't even explain it unless you lose somebody that's, you're just like the three musketeers, you know.

1:08:01So you mentioned that your brother was 44 when he took his life. So a 2023 study found that males aged 45 to 49 were found to have the highest suicide rate. So in the UK, suicide remains the leading cause of death for men under 45. And this is a statistic that until we had started this podcast, I had no idea about. I think that's why I took on the charity Calm campaign against living miserably. Because even I now later on in life, I've learned so much about mental health. Back then with David, they gave him this vial of tablets. I would just take the tablets. Nobody was there for him. And afterwards when he passed and I read on the label, it said could excel the feelings of suicide in small print.

1:08:57But nobody said that when they handed them out like sweets. And I know that my mother tried to get him sectioned and she took him to the hospital. and then as they were trying to go in he recognised somebody but he was that cola from the housing estate. You know, he was so sort of like strong and didn't want anyone to think he was weak and didn't talk about how he was feeling, you know, so. And we didn't know anything about mental health back then. He's certainly not educated on that. But yes, it is the leading cause and I think now with social media and everything it's more than ever in young people and whether it's women, men or children.

1:09:36Yes, yes, yes. And a question that I have, and this connects to a friend of mine, is my best friend a few years ago passed away. And one thing that has stayed with me, and I've noticed this is a recurring theme among all of my friends who have loved ones, not all, but many who have loved ones who have passed away, is this feeling of blame. And when I look at the incident that happened around my best friend, there were decisions that he made, but yet I have remained in the state of blame of myself. And I wonder for you, someone who you had your brother, your brother was your protector, right? Do you carry any blame whatsoever around the passing of your brother?

1:10:34I think my mother and I both, I think the body takes on a role. And I think I can compartmentalize, but it's stuck. I feel it's still stuck. and every time I do work for Calm. And I have spoken to somebody actually in suicide who's talked to me endlessly about not blaming myself. Yes. But if I hadn't have brought my mother down to see my son, if she hadn't have left, we've had counselling on it, but it never goes away. Yeah. And people are so, you know, oh, we understand how you feel. Well, you know what? You don't know how I feel because you've never lost somebody in your family that's, you know, was close to you.

1:11:17It's only years later now that we continually talk about him all the time, you know, with this work that I'm doing. But even my mom bottled it, you know, inside. Yes, yeah. And so this is why I asked that is because I thought you must because I do. Yeah. And I think that for, I think there's a lot of similarity probably in our personalities. and I felt like I'm the one in my family and in my friendship circle that I'm in control. I'm the organizer of this. I'm in control of this. And so my best friend is his past. I'm responsible for this. I shouldn't have allowed that to happen. I should have been able to control this.

1:12:04And I still battle with this, to be honest with you. But the one thing that I always tell myself is, or I ask myself, did I do the best I could with what I knew at the time? Did I do the best I could with the information I had? I feel like I did. And that gives me a little bit of compassion. I try to not get too emotional. I've noticed this too, Shirley, is that you hold it back. I do. I hold everything in. But what I'm realizing now is it just makes you sick. So just for us to properly wrap up this moment, there are many people who have a loved one who has passed and we relive that tape. What are some of the more effective things that you believe you've done over the years to help you to accept it?

1:13:06because they'll always be with us. But has there been anything that you've done that's helped you to accept it? I think obviously when he was 44, I was 42. When I turned 50, and of course, we were bottling it all in, my mother and I didn't talk about it. And I turned 50 and I had a big party at the Biltmore Hotel in the United States for all my friends. And my son said to me, let's do something for the Suicide Foundation. He said, let's collect money and not take gifts for your birthday. And that was the first time that I got into the charity work when I turned 50. David would have been 52. And we collected about 60 ,000, I think.

1:13:47That was our first charity do was it started at my birthday. And I think my son felt if I opened up a little bit more, did more for charity work, that perhaps I could get rid of these some of these stock feelings. So I'd say he was the person that was the first one that said, OK, it's OK to talk about Uncle David. But what I appreciate is that you're talking about it. First time. I didn't have the confidence in the first. I wrote Behind the Sequence, which was my first autobiography in 2018. And then, oh, should I say that? Shouldn't I say that? Oh, no. What will people think of me? I'm not really on Strictly at the moment.

1:14:25So there was a lot of things that I left out. But then as I've gained more momentum and more confidence, shall we say, in a certain area in my life, I decided to write this one best foot forward after writing two fiction novels. And I'm able to open up a lot more in this one. Yeah, which we love. We love because when you open up, we feel like we can connect with you. My mother just can't believe some of the things I write about in there. But for every story I write, you know, when I'm long gone, perhaps somebody can identify with something I've been through or has happened to me. They can identify and take something from it.

1:15:07Yes. Strength, maybe. And an area that you write about in the book and you've alluded to in a few moments in this conversation is around body image. Oh, Lord, yeah. Can we speak about that? Still to this day, you know, I go juicing and I just don't want to sit behind a desk where I look at myself and I think that I'm too heavy or I, you know, I'm always trying to cover up the top of my arms because people have said that I have loose skin and I've got bingo wing arms. So I like dresses that are cut across the top and I like to be able to see the bones here. and all through my life I had weight issues.

1:15:50Weight, being slim never came easy for me, and particularly because I had two very small partners, beautifully shaped partners, and I always felt that I looked bigger than them. Sammy and Corky. Sammy and Corky, both. I didn't have the super six-foot-tall fella. I had boys that were 5 '8", shall we say, and slim built. and I did it to myself and a lot of comments that Nina better watch what you're eating you know need to get on a diet so somebody would say your bum looks bigger than his bum or um my mother in her era they weight is a big issue she weighs 112 pounds to this day if she gains one pound she takes it off she doesn't overeat she eats just what she needs to eat and um she's watches She watches everything.

1:16:39Yeah. So with you watching everything, over the years, what have you done? Because I've ran the research. You literally had fat sucked out of arms and legs. I did. I did that lipolite, which I'm so sorry I did now. Because now I can see where they sucked out the muscle and the skin is like crepe paper. Like crepe. So in certain angles. Not on the outside because I have strong legs. but if I'm bending over to put moisturizer on I can see still where they took out I had fat sucked out my arms I had fat sucked out my tummy and my bottom and then I had fat sucked out of here and stuck in my face because somebody said I had a face like Skeletor or like one of them dogs that has a really pointed face so I think oh I've got to make my cheeks a bit bigger or things like that so I've done vampire facelifts I've had things sucked out, put in you name it I've done it from yo-yo dieting to starving to only eating porridge for six weeks to each lady who's listening to their own whatever makes you feel good about yourself because the thing is that mostly women will come on and criticize me but you don't know me you don't know anything about my life which has been absolute turbulence you don't know what I go home to at night.

1:17:59I don't look at, I don't like looking in mirrors. Even when I'm teaching every student that you will ever come across, I say to them, do not look in mirrors. Don't force me to look in a mirror. You must concentrate with your partner. I don't like mirrors. They tell the truth. I don't like them. And I just say to each woman, whatever makes you feel comfortable. I was a curvy girl. If you're comfortable curvy, if you're comfortable within yourself, good for you but I have to be still searching for me what's comfortable for me and I feel better when I'm you know a lot thinner than I am now even let's say yeah so so even to this day this is a battle that you're in self-images I've been six weeks getting ready for strictly so far you know and juicing and eating small meals and taking care of myself drinking lots of water trying to be all that I can be and I sometimes look at something and my friends say to me oh have it you know don't you think you've deserved it and then I think well what will I look like behind that desk I sit next to Anton Debeck who's very slender I sit next to Motsi who's a beautiful figure and then Craig on the end you know I don't want to look like the old age pensioner with bingo wings.

1:19:16I'm a pensioner. I have a train pass, a bus pass. I get free medication. I'm a pensioner, typically. Yeah. Shirley, do you truly, do you believe you're beautiful? I think beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but I wouldn't say I was, I never had the boyfriends when I was at school. I was never the kid that they flocked around. There was always the pretty ones. I was not that person. I had thin hair and it was often greasy, I had to wash it all the time I had pimples, I you know, I always had nice ankles I've got nice ankles and nice feet I see you they paved the way so I was grateful for my thin leg from here to here as a dancer, it served me well but I wouldn't look at myself and think, oh my gosh, you know, you're stunning I think I have very thin hair and a crinkly neck and I have a mole on my chin I was once told I'll give you a dollar go get a rat to chew it off and somebody else last year on Strictly said you you should get that mole on your chin removed which then opens that box of the person who told me to go get it gnawed off by the rat so people don't realize when they comment to you might be already suffering with things like that you know in your head yes yes and it exacerbates that it just opens it up again you start thinking should I yeah what else can I do but I haven't I haven't had a facelift yet.

1:20:44I do have neogen treatments, which is like a treatment that lifts and gives me collagen. So I do do that. And, you know, I have great moisturizer. I moisturize a lot. I drink a lot of water. I do take care of myself. I try the best that I can. Okay. Okay. For the record, you are stunning. Oh. For the record. Just putting a period at the end of that. Just for the record. I don't see myself as that, but thank you. So we have to talk about dating before we get out of here. Dating. Look at the smile. Look at the smile. Dating for me, I don't think I was put on planet Earth to have somebody to love me, to nurture me, to cherish me.

1:21:26I think I'm on planet Earth to get the dancers to where they need to be, to take care of my mom, to be there for my son for the years that I missed and my grandson. And it's not I'm playing the violin or feeling sorry for myself. It's just moments when I sit and I think, sometimes you're put on this earth for other things, to help other people's children achieve their goals, to the couples that come in that are upset or need help or a bit of that person I feel I am. In the book, in your new book, there's some advice that you give that is along these lines of you're here to help others, right? Shirley Shimmers, it's called.

1:22:09I have it at the end. I give all sorts of little advice at the end. My mother gives the first quote before the chapter, and I give the Shirley Shimmers at the end. But this is the letter. Oh, in the letter. This is the letter. The one I write to myself or the one my mother writes to me. The one that you write to yourself. Okay. At the very end. That's profound. I wonder if you could read that, because this is a letter that you've written to yourself. and would you is this uh what is it is this a letter to you at 17 yes yes if i could go back and read that but i want a bit of it if we can have a bit of it please please dear shirley i've been thinking about you a lot lately i might have a few more wrinkles these days and a heart that's been crushed more times than i care to tell but i've also got a truckload of perspective and there's some things I'd like to share with you.

1:23:04Before we go any further, I want to let you know that you're an incredibly brave young lady. I know for a fact you'll be rolling your eyes at that moment and wafting me away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll say whatever, whatever. But it's the absolute truth. You just won't realise or appreciate it until decades later. Upping sticks and moving down to London Without any money Or prospect of a job In order to pursue a dream And make something of yourself Takes guts And if you'd be my daughter

1:23:46I would have almost certainly Tried to talk you out of such A plan It's hard to read It's beautiful It's beautiful there Yeah because if I look back now and I think I would have devised this and I would have told her it's going to be okay, you know, who would know all that pain you're going through? One day you'd have this beautiful son and you'd have a grandson and still got your mum alive at 88, you know, and some good friends around you really care not about your celebrity status but about you, the human being that you are. you know what Shirley the last if you could I think it's the last paragraph almost the last paragraph is right where it ends is so is is so beautiful could you read that I'll go from I don't want to spoil the story but I what I will say is that it might not work out in quite the way you envisage right now and you're in for a few surprises it will be magical and messy and and my God, you will make mistakes.

1:24:56You're human, so don't beat yourself up about decisions you made with your heart, and which you believed were right at that time. But whatever happens, something beautiful emerges from the chaos, and you will give birth to a son, who will be the light of your life, and grow up to be the very best of men. He will make you prouder than you ever thought possible. There will be a beautiful daughter-in-law too, and a grandson who will complete your family. I'll not keep you any longer. No doubt there'll be a dance lesson you've got to dash off to. You'll still be dashing about in your sixties, mind, so I'll leave you to get on with that.

1:25:40But before I sign off, remember this. You will be underestimated, overlooked, and sometimes betrayed, but you will never be broke. Keep swimming, darling. You'll be okay.

1:25:58Swimming upstream. Yeah. Swimming upstream. Look at that. And that gives me chills to think. Your son, your grandchild, right? that would not be here if it weren't for you. Yeah. And that's when. Right. Beautiful. So let me ask you this. This is the last question that everyone gets, and then we'll close it out. And that is, if you think back throughout your incredible life, who did you have the most memorable conversation with? So who was it with, and what did you learn from that conversation? I would have to say it's my mother again when she sat me down when I was first moving away and she goes nothing in life is for free Shirley everything comes at a price work ethic will be key to you getting where you need to go not your talent because I think I was talented but I wasn't the most gifted but I certainly worked the hardest from a young child always striving to be the best as she says in her letter.

1:27:11All the advice that I have that I'll carry forward to my grandson and have given that knowledge to my own son are little lines that she writes in the book at the beginning of each chapter. You know, try to keep your gob shut, Shirley. You know, just be quiet a little bit and listen. Don't be the one always yapping. Listen to what other people have to say. And another big one was always read the room because life is not always about you. There could be somebody in the room that's been quite cheery one minute and then has gone super quiet, it would be your job to walk over and say, is everything fine?

1:27:45So reading a room, I got that from my mother. What do you believe is most misunderstood about you? I think that there are certain people, like one friend wrote to me recently and said that they, you know you're manipulative I know you you're this you're that you're this which was heartbreaking for me it was heartbreaking to read but manipulation doesn't always come in a bad form you know sometimes you have to do things in order to get where you need to go and as long as you don't hurt anybody on that track it's fine because I certainly wouldn't I've got where I am if I didn't understand about human nature, male ego, navigation, when things were, when I've gone broke, when I was super well off to where I had nothing to starting again, you know, I've never been fearful of anything.

1:28:47I think people just misunderstand me and see me as this pushy person, you know, they, can I be pushy? Yes. if I want something, but then things don't land in your lap. Don't sit around waiting for things to land in your lap. If you want to win with Corky Ballas, my mom said, you better get your buck back to England. You better do this. You better do that. You better do this. Don't wait for somebody to give it you because in this world, no one gives you anything. And if they do, it's always at a price. Nothing comes for free. Yes. Yes. When I was in high school in the states you know we call it high school uh my last year my senior year i will never forget a teacher taught me the word that will stay with me forever and that is a word called stick to a tibness wow i haven't heard that word you personify this oh and that is identifying goal and never giving up on it and never giving up on it and you have done that throughout your entire life your entire life little girl seven years old you know 11 hopping on the bus going here there there there you identified a goal you never gave up on it and never wavered on it just that short spell of time when i moved in with corky and thought no i'm were dancing for me six weeks later I realized but even even now when I look back climbing Kilimanjaro mountain going in the jungle with bear grills you know surviving that and jumping out of airplanes for charity and even things that come my way now my mother says oh don't do that I don't want to lose another child you know and I think to myself with one life to live you know if you've got a goal, at least try to do those things.

1:30:44I'll be striving forward now. I've been blessed to get to 65 and some people are not that lucky. And I shall be taking every opportunity that comes along for my charities, whether that's jumping out of here or hanging off there or I'm not just going to sit and, you know, not do things. Maybe take a few more holidays, maybe. But I think that's that's the inspiration. I think you're incredibly inspirational because of that stick-to-itiveness. But the one thing that I hope for you more than anything is that you're able to find true happiness. And what is true happiness? Somebody asked me that in an interview.

1:31:25Oh, interesting. Yeah. I think true happiness for me is being around my son and my grandson and getting to share with my mother. But I don't think that personal happiness of where people are ecstatic about, you know, being in love. I don't think I'll ever experience that again in my lifetime. I do have some matchmaking advice. Do you? Oh, yeah. Oh, maybe you could matchmake me. Maybe I should go on Celebrities Go Dating. Oh, my gosh, you should come on Celebrities Go Dating. Excuse me. You should have men my age. Surely. I'm telling you. You should come on Celebrities Go Dating. You know, we're casting for next year.

1:31:57Are you? Yes. Maybe I'm that person. Done. Done. But, okay. Okay, so then two last things for me, right? I want to talk about happiness, but I want to talk about the matchmaking. What do you want to hear about first? Matchmaking.

1:32:14Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match. Forget about the happiness, I want the matchmaking. You know what I think could be effective for you is that there are many, many, many, I would argue millions of people who love and adore you, okay? I'd argue that. you, I think, should give us the responsibility of helping you by being clear, succinct, like clear about your desire to be in a relationship. So what does that look like in practice? What it looks like in practice is, Paul, I would like for you to introduce me to at least one person. But give metrics. Give a date. So give the goal, the metric goal.

1:33:04You're the goals, right? The goal and then a date. So Paul, by December 15th, I would like for you to match me with one person or introduce me to one person by December 15th. I could at least go to lunch with and they could afford their own lunch. That would be nice. That would be a first. I'm just serious. But being very, I think, being very clear about what it is that you are seeking, I think is important. That's one. So that's one little matchmaking tip, I think. And that's for everyone, right, to be very clear. Secondly, on happiness. So I've read a lot about happiness, a lot. And what's interesting is a lot of us don't realize that half of our happiness comes from our genetics.

1:33:51Literally. our genetic makeup is what allows is roughly 50 of what our happiness is the other 50 is for the most part circumstantial i have a grandchild right brings us the happiness the other piece to happiness is there's the feeling and this is what people often talk about the feeling do i feel joy in the moment. And I'm sure every day there's joy. You walk home, you see your mother, there's joy, right? Talk to your son who calls you every day. There's joy. There's that. That is my joy, you know? So when I don't get that little phone call from him or he's busy or something, I feel it. And I take it a bit personally, you know, because I want him to call every day, seven days a week, Saturdays, Sundays and holidays.

1:34:41So he does his best to do It's a need I feel I need. Not codependent, but he's there, I'm here. It's something that I need a bit for me. Which is healthy. And when he does, you get that hit of joy, right? That's one part of happiness. That's the feeling. But the other part, so that's the emotion. The other part of happiness is the cognitive piece. The cognitive piece says, you know what? I am deserving of this.

1:35:13And I think that's the piece that you struggle with. Yeah, because I think everything, because of things I've done in the past, I deserve where I am now. You deserve less. And no, I hope that you at least walk from this conversation saying, you know what, I deserve this joy. So when my son calls me and I am joyful that he's calling me, I deserve this because of the good that I've placed in this world. when you move to that stage that's happiness and that's what I hope for you thank you that sounds fabulous you're going to find me somebody there shall I forget the espy name shall I just leave that to you now you press your buttons I'm going to ask for you to be on Celebs Go Dating I'm serious about that it's had a nice show I can't really say I've watched it because I was in a relationship well let me tell you This year, we've had multiple celebs who found someone.

1:36:18Really? Yeah, they're still with their partner. It is. So do you put somebody like me on and then you search for somebody you think will be compatible for me? Exactly. What we do is you come, you join our matchmaking agency. It's an agency. You shouldn't call it matchmaking agency. It's an agency. And we search throughout the UK to find you matches. and you then date those people, lots of people. Could be 20 people, could be 15 people, but you'll date them. And then eventually you get to a point where you decide if you want to then continue dating one of those people outside of the show. Wow. Yes.

1:36:58You'd be perfect for sure. More day. You'd be perfect. You don't have to do all that snogging and stuff, do you? Some people do. Oh, dear. Thank you. Oh, dear. Not everyone. Not everyone, though. Not everyone. But some people do. Wow. Well, I'll have to watch an episode of that. But I'm relying on you with your agency, even if I don't get on the show, that you'll be looking to go, that one would be perfect for Shirley. I'll give you the number. Yeah, I think you would make for a phenomenal partner and an even better partner once you move to a place where you realize that you deserve all of this goodness that does come to you.

1:37:41You know, you have to realize that you deserve it because you do. That's fundamental. It's very important. Well, I'll take those words on board. All right. All right, done. Done. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. That was one memorable conversation.

1:38:08Shirley Ballas. She's had an incredible life. And I think that it is probably to the contrary of the life that many people think she had. You know, to think that she has already given up or, you know, she hasn't given up. She says it. And I think it's she says it to protect herself. She says, you know what? I'm not built for love. You know, I'm not here. No one can love me. That is a defense mechanism. She wants to be loved. And I believe she will be loved. I think Shirley needs to give herself grace. She needs to give herself grace. She has achieved some incredible things. She's achieved things that most people will not achieve.

1:39:00She's so real. You know, she's unhappy about certain things in her life, but also at the same time you can see how she feels incredibly blessed with other things in her life. You can see how she's been ridiculed and judged and bullied throughout her life, But yet she has, you know, seen some incredible things, lived a lavish lifestyle, etc. So she's a great example of a life well lived.