The Conversations That Saved Our Lives | We’re Talking Suicide Prevention

0:00Hi, everyone. A quick heads up. In this episode, we'll be talking in depth about mental health and suicide. Following World Suicide Prevention Day, I wanted to pause and reflect on some of the conversations we've had on We Need to Talk around mental health. It feels important to honor those moments by continuing the conversation, raising awareness, and focusing on suicide prevention. Jordan Stevens, Ella Morgan, and Dan TDM share their experiences, the challenges they faced, and how they found help. These aren't just stories about pain. They're stories about survival, hope, and the small conversations that can change everything.

0:38Suicide is the biggest killer of people under 30, and that's why we can't afford to stay silent. If you're struggling, please reach out to a friend, a family member, or one of the support charities we've included in the episode description. It's okay not to be okay. It's okay to have conversations that feel uncomfortable. So let's get into it. Today, we're talking suicide prevention.

1:17At this point, though, you are famous. Yeah. You are popular. Yeah. Right. You have your in and out of relationships at this point. yeah you know a romantic relationships yeah yeah all sorts of chaos right you are abusing drugs yeah about your life where did you feel alone i mean yeah there was there was one point where it's difficult you might have actually you might have actually found the point where at what a boundary but I think because it involves someone else but there was a there was also a point where I was very close to a suicide as well and the suicide implicated people around me just just because of the support network that this person had had I'm trying to find polite ways of publishing it and

2:22I was literally on tour when that happened then I kind of came off tour to deal with the the repercussions of it and um that that I was that everything in and around that led to not only me having to engage with like the the least mature and most confused parts of me but also this suddenly this desperation for me to have have someone you know like I by that point I was probably the making the most money in my family and and was siphoning that out but I don't think I was quite I definitely wasn't emotionally stable enough to be like the anchor of my immediate family and yet I found myself in a space where I was trying to be.

3:11And that felt really alert. Stop me where you want me to. But the topic of suicide is one that's come up in several of the conversations we've had. And we need to talk. And an area that I think has been very helpful for the audience has been when that ideation happens, those thoughts arise of taking your life, how do you move to a space where you don't right how do you stop how how do you prevent yourself how did you how did i yeah so i definitely so that that in that moment i did the last thing i could ever imagined was myself putting my that was also an added pressure you know at that moment of learning this as a because because it was in proximity to that having happened actually to a full extent having lost someone to suicide oh that wasn't it i couldn't even dream about that myself later on when i've gone through this particular heartbreak that has basically torn all the plasters of whatever i was put over this abandonment wound there was a point there was a point in that situation where i was like oh man i just was like this is this pain is unbelievable i just did no one had i didn't know it was possible to feel so alone and so like not alone not necessarily alone actually i had a lot of people around me but just so profoundly damaged you know like i'll go to sleep and not want to wake up i just i did i preferred being in my dreams even if they weren't nice because i'd wake up and just have this crushing feeling of anxiety straight away that i was in this situation i had no control over i felt rejected i felt wrong and i was wasn't quite stable enough to avoid i mean to be fair i went sober and maintained that for a period of time but i was smoking a lot of cigarettes and um and so yeah you know it thought crosses your mind there was one point where i was too scared to go to to get the tube because i just thought you know like who know like we all have that imp of the perverse you know that what if i did just thinking that one moment the moment of madness you know in front of a fucking train it feels so achievable so i you know but i was fortunate enough to have a friend and i expressed that with i said look i know this sounds really mental bro but like i feel like i can't even get the fucking tube home like i just come and stay with you for a few days and he did and i love i love him with my heart and um i was lucky with that but the real wake-up call for me and again i don't speak about of everyone everyone a lot of people have different feelings around suicide but the real woke up call for me was when my mom called me and i was on the way to the studio and i think i even recorded a song that explicitly said that i wanted to kill myself not like again there's not as you know there's different stages i was certainly one too i wasn't anything more i wasn't planning things i wasn't the scary stage where I'm actually happy right because I've made a decision and so my mom rung me and I was like yeah you know I'm just feeling you know sometimes I feel like I just don't want to be here and bro like makes me feel sad now but like hearing my mom's response to that knowing that like I put my mom in a position where she could have to think about losing her son like while she was alive like that that for me that was that that ended it for me in terms of of that being how i was going to deal with the pain i was in one of the most beautiful pieces of and and such like most articulate simple concise ways of explaining how i feel about suicide now is that we're actually expressed by dave another rapper dave yeah he has an album called psychodrama and there's a lyric which is if you're thinking about doing it suicide doesn't stop the pain you're only moving it lives that you're ruining and you know i remember hearing it and it's you wrote only like 21 or something and i was just like fucking that's that's it for me if i'm ever down like i can't do that to people around me and i'm now in a place where i can believe that people love me for a long time i couldn't believe that but i i i believe that people love me and for that reason them i will live for them more than anything that's that's powerful and i appreciate you sharing that you know it's it's it's interesting seeing that you were at a place where financially you were probably you were at your top right yeah you had paid the debts for your mother so in essence you had moved her out and if you go back to brighton all you wanted was to move her out of that situation right so you wanted to move her out but then here you are at a place where you're considering taking your life so you had made her happy but it was that idea of removing yourself how that would have crushed her yeah that would have crushed her happiness and how that that in part saved you but then also talking to your friend you know and I think that's a part that we all need to we all need to I think think about embodying and that is is that when these ideas begin to percolate to talk about it to someone that we love and trust because just that can reduce the ideation of suicide 100 you know and and studies support that 100 but but to be clear actually I think it's an important point I hadn't made my mom happy by helping her their debts or helping her with money i hadn't actually the biggest shift was um eventually after that point of engagement where i was like fuck that was you know hardcore that i said that my next process and most important process in the relationship between me and my mom was i actually kind of broke up with my mom i wanted to get to this yeah i wanted to get to this so let's yeah we're already there yeah we're already there so you broke up with your mother yes this is the this confuses me yeah so help me understand it's complex with with moms and sons i think because there is again a lot of social there are loads of social politics to support the idea that it's a massive green flag for moms and sons to have a good relationship you know to love your mom to be openly outwardly loving of your mom is a is a good thing but i've come to understand of course that that love is a good thing if it if it's not codependent you know and naturally again to no fault of my mum or dad you know i would have i might have inherited some tendencies towards codependency anyway but i'm a single child and a single mother for being there for that being most of the situation avoiding codependency is not impossible unless you have an emotionally secure parent and so you know i was realizing that like my mom's decisions would still upset me you know or i'd be nervous on the account of my mom she would be a nervous on the account of me her her critique of my work would would be really important to me my mom had to like it otherwise i didn't like it you know there was there was this in in mesh but and i had just given her everything i could like anytime i got something money i'd give it to her like it got to the point where i tried to give her a flat i tried to give her like a whole property that i had and which is a dream by the way yeah for many especially boys who don't come from much money boys and girls anyone but unfortunately it came at the expense of me having a house so i i had you know given my mom this place i then had a fucking my life just blew up and then suddenly i didn't have anywhere to go i barely had anywhere to go and that for me was quite a literal representation of me giving so much that I'm actually leaving myself with not even a place to repair what good am I going to be right if I'm like that so I had to stand up and go I can't keep doing this I can't and by the way from my mom and I'm my therapist would be like Jordan you're protecting her but this is a public podcast my my mom isn't encouraging this my mom's not going where's my flat right right where's my money no never in life this is me being like I want to do this for you i want to do this for you i want to do this for you but and in doing so obviously a part of codependency is allowing for your boundaries to have been crossed the person who is crossing your boundaries sometimes it isn't even aware that they're they're doing that yes so so so yeah so we got to the point where you know she had this dominion in my life and so i was like no i need a flat i need my flat i need my place i need my space and i need us to just step away for a moment and this is this is when i was most heartbroken so for her of course it's complex on a few levels yes because she wants to be there to support me um and me my personal experience from that point onwards the relationship to my mum and I has been incredible and there were moments after that where I pushed back on her expectation of me be that like to even to stay at my house unannounced to turn up at my house or something like that which should again to many people this is very usual but specific to me and it hurt doing that because I felt like it came at the cost of my mom's like momentarily the cost of my mom's emotion but since i can't right paul right now me and my mom best ever best ever in life like our relationship same with my dad and it's both come from me sitting down i mean with my mom i wrote her a letter with my dad i sat down in front of him and had it out just and had it out and just was like this is i don't like this this is this isn't good for me i want us to be separate and then we can talk again as adults to some people they're going to receive that and that will be gospel yeah to them that's going to be refreshing to hear um and it's going to be a new idea you know this idea of breaking up because in essence you didn't break up with her what you did is you initiated boundaries yeah on your relationship you know and i think it's very important for us all to include boundaries in any relationship that we have platonic professional definitely romantic and i think also the term boundaries end up getting conflated with other things because boundaries in essence are not what you're putting around yourself boundaries are what you put around your entire relationship and say in order for me to be able to sustain this relationship with you this is what i'm going to need yeah and if this happens, then I can show up as my best self.

13:53Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly what you did.

14:07Set the parameters where you want to on this, but then at 16, roughly 16, things take another turn for you. Just give me a second.

14:28It's really hard to talk about. But sadly, statistically, most trans people do attempt to end their lives, either before transition or during or after. So my story is just one of so many. um i suppressed like being ella like i somehow managed to do day-to-day life as ever so where i used to live there was a big motorway bridge it's called the abermouth bridge and there was a side alley like walk path pathway okay to get to the other side i just felt so low that i was like I keep, you know, every day having to wake up and put on this front and be this person that I'm not and lie to everyone. And when can I be me?

15:18When is my life going to change? And I just that day, I it all just got too much. And I thought I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I was starting to walk up towards this this the bridge. And I got to the middle and I just remember.

15:37that I could see actually my family home where I lived in the distance. And I just kept thinking like I'm a mess, like I'm a freak, like I will never be able to be the person that I am now sat with you. I don't think I've got the courage or the guts to physically sit my parents down and say to them, I'm a girl and I'm going to transition. So for me, the easy way out was to end my life. So I sat there and I just, I sat on the floor and I was just going to and fro of, okay, well, I'm not going to ever be able to be me. I'm going to let my parents down because I'd had their love so unconditionally up until that point that that's all I'd ever known.

16:30Like all I'd ever known was their unconditional love. And I just thought I'd rather end my life now knowing that that's all I've ever had than to tell them about what I was feeling and how I felt. And I just remember thinking like, oh God.

16:58That I didn't want to let them down. and so right this is it I'm gonna end my life and then they can meet their happy family without me and I won't break their hearts and they will never need to know the reason that I was feeling this way or why I did it you know it could be a secret that dies with me

17:23and I must have been sat there for a good hour um and I thought I can't do this to them like it would absolutely break their hearts if I really do this at least they deserve is for me to be open and honest with them and whether they accept me or not I it was like a turning moment I thought I don't want to leave them I miss them too much and I love them and I was like I need to get the strength now to face the music and I was like I I would actually rather be here as Ella than to die as Evan and die as a boy and never have got to have lived the life that I'm living now. So sometimes it's like moments like this where I pinch myself.

18:09And I just remember thinking, no, I need to get up now and go home and tell my family how I'm actually feeling. If they support me, they support me. If they don't, they don't. So, and I'd kept all of this in for years, so I knew it was going to be a bit of a shock to them. Yeah, you're right, because at 11 is where you discovered, so you're 16 now, so for five years you've kept this secret. And it was also not just them, but it was also me. Like, I wanted to be Ella. Like, I wanted to get to live this life and, like, know what it's like to date a boy and be beautiful and look in the mirror and feel happy with how I looked and just be the girl that I've always known I am.

18:47Like, I wanted to experience that. So it was my mum I had the conversation with. and I sat on my bed. This is the same day? No, no, it must have been maybe a few weeks later. Okay. Because I still had it in my head that they were probably going to disown me and so I kept thinking I need to drive, I need to learn. I had this fixation with learning to drive so I could get away and escape. Yes. And I remember the day I was in my bedroom and she came and sat on my bed and as a teenager she'd said to me um privately like are you do you mind me asking after my brother came out as gay do you mind me asking are you uh gay and I was like no no I'm not and it always stayed with me for a while because I was like she knows she's on something she knows something but I was like no she won't know she said do you want to be a girl and I said no mum I am a girl and I said you won't be able to understand this or believe this now and I know I'm sat here in boy form, but I have always been a girl.

19:49Like, I always have felt like I am Ella inside. And now I want to be able to just blossom and be this butterfly, which is why I've got the butterfly on me tattooed. So she took it better than I thought. And I slowly started telling friends. Coverage varies by plan. View contracts and exclusions at endurancewarranty.com. If you're driving a car or truck with an expired warranty and suddenly lost your transmission or needed a full engine repair? Would it leave you stranded? I'm Danica Patrick. Choose the company I trust, Endurance. If your vehicle is less than 20 years old, Endurance offers auto protection on the drivetrain, A.C., and more.

20:27Act now and get one full year of Elite Benefits, a$2 ,000 value, free. For your free quote, go to endurancewarranty.com. That's endurancewarranty.com.

20:46and at what point does it feel like it's a it's a breaking point my breaking point was

20:55samaritans had this this app thing where you could like journal and i wrote down how i felt that day and it wasn't good like i was just like i want out like i don't want to be here anymore to type in the hour you went out of life yeah I was done like I was that low that I was I was done but writing it out is very different to thinking it from my perspective I like seeing myself I almost felt like I was watching myself from a third person typing myself out and I almost saw it from like an outside perspective I was like nah this is what are you doing i went to my gp just they prescribed me antidepressants straight away so i went on those it felt like a quicker less involved fix like i just take these it's done it's fixed yeah easy yeah and it's and it's not it's not it's more of like a just delayed it a bit so from that point i then talked to my wife and then she was like try therapy she found the therapist like she made it so easy for me to then go to go so you didn't so you didn't get to the point where you wrote it out i did yeah i physically wrote it out but then reading it back almost felt like i was reading someone else someone else's um typing like it felt really out of body like it was strange it was because i was thinking it the whole time but then physically reading it back was different for some reason being blunt it felt like i want to do this that would be my ideal like solution to this this brain space i'm in but having my son was way more powerful like that was i could not leave him that's that's yeah you you think your son is what kept you alive yeah

22:57yep yep see yeah father the power of father yeah it changes your chemistry yeah completely it does you just so wow so when you go to the samaritans app yeah they they'd done i wasn't confident enough to ring so i think at the time they only had something to ring but because it was locked down they were having way more like an influx of of people ringing i think and then they set up this this app and i was like oh i'll check it out and it was just like a diary like a like a journaling thing and i was like i don't even know we'll maybe try it i was just like oh i'll just type and see what happens and then even now i feel like if i'm struggling with anything i just write it and then it's on the page it's almost felt like it's left my my body and my brain so it definitely helps journaling is so powerful so powerful but then you make another life-saving decision and you you tell your wife yeah how does that conversation happen i mean we know each other on such a deep level that she knew kind of anyway not to that kind of extent but she knew something was right because my whole demeanor has changed so the conversation felt quite easy because it It was almost like I'd already told her.

24:15And then immediately, what does she do? She, I think it was just like, you need to go to therapy. You need external help for this. I was pretty, I didn't believe in therapy. I was like, how can this work? I don't understand. How can someone that knows zero about you help you with your hardest problems? Like, I didn't quite, I just didn't understand how it would work. You were very pessimistic. Pessimistic, like a non-believer. Like I just was like, no, it's not going to work. There's no way. It doesn't make sense. So being able to talk about it, in particular to your wife, that immediately brought you some relief.

24:54Yeah, yeah, definitely. I would imagine also the process of now engaging with a therapist, messaging them, knowing that there was a potential resolution, even though you're pessimistic. Yeah. Potentially there's something on the horizon. Yeah, that was a drive. I was like, okay, let's get to, it's like something to look forward to almost. Okay. So all of these pieces are just layering on top of each other. Yeah. So you see the therapist. Yeah. You don't want to. I don't want to, no. But you see the therapist. Sounds like the therapist also was life-saving for you. Yeah, she was amazing. Yeah. I feel like she gave me the manual to my brain, like the instruction manual to my brain of how it works.

25:41and how you end up in a certain space. Like even now, I'm not actively having therapy now, but I still use everything I've learned to decipher my own thoughts sometimes. Be like, oh, that's why I feel that way, because of this. Like, I always say it feels, before I started therapy, it felt like I was on a road, and then you have all these, like a spaghetti junction in front of you that's also very foggy. So you choose one at random and hopefully you don't go backwards or downwards. But with therapy, the fog is lifted and all the roads are straight and you can see where the destination is. That's how it feels, I think.

26:22What type of – do you know the type of therapy that you went to? CVT. Okay, yeah. Cognitive behavioral therapy, yeah, which is incredibly helpful. Yeah. Incredibly helpful. you know and almost reprogramming you know yeah you know the the the mind like my whole thing was like the divorce was the main my main catalyst for my most of my mental health issues because i then prepare for the worst at all times right and then that then crept into being a parent as well and then but weighed me down way heavier than it did before so i think therapy you think you know the reason for the way you're feeling but then actually it helps with all aspects with your life of your life rather than what you're just feeling at the moment so it makes you just makes you discover things about yourself you know as it clicks it literally feels like puzzle pieces clicking in your brain you're like i could almost hear the click when i when we were talking and then it just fit like everything just fit and made sense and that's how it does untangle everything which yes you can't really explain unless that feeling unless you've done therapy i think so So that's why I try to get across to people if they're struggling.

27:34But yeah, I think that's an amazing analogy of what it is. It's like it all clicks. Yeah. You know, it's like a puzzle almost. Exactly. Yeah. The pieces are all there, but not in place. Boom. And it's in place. If today's episode has resonated with you, consider checking in on someone. The people around you, ask them, how are you? Really? Even the smallest conversation can make a difference. We've included links to support charities in the episode description, and you can find the full conversations with Dan TDM, Ella Morgan, and Jordan Stevens on the show page. Don't forget to follow the show and give us a rating.

28:13I'll see you next week. Let me ask you something. When was the last time you really thought about how you love? Not who, but how? Most of us don't. We're moving fast, doing life, hoping love just shows up and sticks. But that's not how real connection works. So I've created something different. It's called Love Better, and I'm taking it on tour. A live experience for anyone who wants to build deeper, more meaningful connection. We'll unpack the lessons from the couples you've seen me coach. I'll share stories I've never told on camera. And you'll walk away with tools you could use right away. This isn't a show you just sit back and watch.

28:57It's a night of honesty, insight, music, and connection designed to make you walk away with something real. Come solo, bring a partner, bring your crew everyone's welcome. But seats are limited, and they will go. Tickets are on sale right now at livenation.co.uk. I can't wait to see you there.

29:25Thank you.