The Gottmans: “Contempt DESTROYS Your Immune System” - Are You REALLY Listening to Your Partner??

30:46We do it. You do? We do it very consciously. All the time. Okay. Six-second kiss. You're trying to do that daily. I mean, John looks like he wants to kiss you right now. I know. That's why I was disappointed we're so far apart. My wife and I do the same thing. We're always trying to experiment. And I've noticed that also couples who have an unwillingness, especially when you have one partner who's unwilling to try and experiment, that typically tells us something about the state of the relationship. Yeah, it's a bad sign. Yeah. In therapy, I think one of the really big red flags is if people aren't willing to take any responsibility for their part of a problem, therapy is not going to be successful with that couple.

31:34Well, it can be, but you have to work on that individual overcoming their own shame, typically. You're better at that than I am, I think. Which blocks them from saying, yep, I was at fault. Because they don't want to show that they have faults, that they do make mistakes. A lot of people are so insecure and they feel like if they admit that they made a mistake, that means they're a bad person. There's the shame, right? And oftentimes that didn't start in this relationship. It started, you know, when kids were just high in the family they grew up in. So when one can, as a therapist, can track, where's that shame coming from?

32:28What's that about? You know, it's oftentimes an internal voice they've taken in from those early years. I like to think that those early years create deep tracks. It's almost like deep tracks in wet cement in the mind. And then that deep cement hardens. And it's so easy to fall into that track when somebody says, you know, you did this. No, I didn't. You know, and they immediately go defensive. The key is to start with self-compassion. When someone reacts defensively, it's often because their inner critic is in overdrive, telling them they're not good enough. The first step is to recognize that voice and where it comes from.

33:18For example, if a partner shuts down over small criticisms, it might trace back to growing up in a strict household where mistakes meant harsh punishment. Journaling or therapy can help unearth those roots. And then once identified, the goal is to separate who you are from what you do. This makes it easier to embrace vulnerability, take responsibility, and show up more authentically in the relationship. Moving into my favorite category, sex. So what did the Love Lab teach us about the importance of sex, how frequent we should be having sex, and how to have better sex? Well, first of all, the Love Lab didn't teach us all that much about sex.

34:08Because we're not studying them having sexual activity. That's right. It was also when I knew people about their sex lives. But we did. Yeah. And, you know, there's a couple of things to understand that a lot of people, you know, are under an illusion about. And that is that there's no proper frequency to have sex. There's a huge range. People have a huge range of how often they want to have sex. And one of the things about people in the United States, I don't know if that's true here in the UK, but one out of four women report being sexually molested by the age of 18. One out of four. And that's reporting.

34:55So it's probably bigger. It's probably one out of three. So you put that together with wanting to have sex frequently. They have to have a sense of safety. Yes. and emotional connection in order to feel safe enough to be intimate with their partners physically. So the emotional connection comes in. And I think there is a gender difference here for sure in that which we've talked about many times in which women are so much less safe in society than men. I mean, there's thousands of years of being raped, right, that continue to this day, and then being blamed for that. Though there's more men coming out now saying they've been raped too, as kids.

35:55But women really need to have that safety in order to feel sexually free. Men don't. Not in the same way. The first study done on marriage was done in 1938 by Lewis Terman. And they were very surprised that there was no relationship between the frequency of couples had sex and how happily married they were. They were really shocked by that. And, you know, a huge variability in how often people had sex. and the quality of sex across all these marriages. So it's been kind of a mystery. What's the role of sex? What's ideal? What's the normal bar there? And it's only recently that we've really started to understand what makes the difference between people who have a great sex life and people who say they have an awful sex life.

36:53in 24 countries and 70 ,000 people that were studied, they found that across the whole planet it's the same thing. The same things discriminate people who have a great sex life from people who have a bad sex life. Please tell us. It has nothing to do with what happens in the bedroom. It's about people who have a great sex life say, I love you every day and mean it. They kiss each other passionately for no reason at all. They give compliments, surprise romantic gifts. They cuddle a lot. They're affectionate even in public. They have romantic dates and romantic vacations. They make sex a priority, not the last item on a long to-do list.

37:41Nothing to do with what happens in the bedroom. And that shocked me. You know, it shocks me, but then it goes back to, actually, Julie, you're talking about it goes back to the emotional connection. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, this is really interesting because a lot of psychologists say, well, if you're if you have a lot of affection and a lot of friendship in the relationship and safety and familiarity, that's antithetical to a really erotic life, you know, where you need mystery, you know, and romance. And it's only good if you don't know each other, you know, completely wrong. Yeah.

38:15Yeah. You know what's so interesting about that, too, is that, you know, there's a lot of people, a lot of guys do this, too, very braggadocious. I'm the best in the bedroom. I'm the best lover. That's what I do. You think about that and you think, OK, if you have no abilities or interest to create an emotional connection with your partner. That's right. How good are you really? Good point. Good point. It's really true. And I want to definitely make sure we talk about date night because this is also something that I've read from your work and my wife and I try to incorporate it into our life. How important truly is date night?

38:54Is it a make or break in your relationship? It depends on the rest of the relationship. There was a study, for example, at UCLA at the Sloan Center that took a whole bunch of marriages. And the average amount of time that men and women in heterosexual relationships talk to each other a week was 35 minutes. A week. A week. And most of it was about who's going to do what, when. That's right. 35 minutes for the week. That's right. That's right. They spent less than 10 % of an evening in the same room in the house. Yep. So, you know, these were dual career couples. Right. You know, at UCLA, Sloan Center study.

39:43Really important study that showed that most of these American couples with two careers were essentially living parallel lives. You know, they had a managerial relationship. They were taking care of the kids in the house and, you know, all the bills and everything else and going to work and being successful. But they were drifting apart emotionally. So let's come back to date night. Your question about date night then is really relevant to that. Because for couples who are a dual career couple or they have a lot of kids, you know, whatever, they don't have time to talk to each other. Date night gives priority to their connection and nothing else.

40:28And when you don't have any room in the rest of your life to really connect with one another, it's incredibly important. But then there are couples who basically work nine to five, you know, five days a week. They've got time. it's probably not quite as important because, especially if they're prioritizing talking to each other on a daily basis. Okay. Right? Okay. Does that make sense? That does. And I appreciate that clarification. So for the couples who need the date night, whether you're in a relationship like in a long-term marriage or maybe you've just met and you're going on a date, tell us, what are the pieces to the perfect date?

41:13And I bring this up because oftentimes people will say, oh, we're going to go see a film. And you sit next to each other. You have no conversation other than pass the popcorn. You know, get your hands out of my popcorn. That's right. That's what I would say. Get your hands out of it. So what makes up the perfect date? I love it. So we wrote a book on this, right? Which is called Eight Dates, Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love. Okay. And what that book was composed of, and I think it answers your question as well, is that, first of all, you really need to address the question honestly and transparently of how are you?

41:58How are you doing? You know, what have been your highs and your lows this week? How is your relationship going with your boss? What do you think about, you know, our kids' behavior? So they're having intimate conversation that's honest, that's open, that's vulnerable, that goes deeper, and that's transparent, right? Okay. If you keep it superficial, as John was describing in the Sloan study, you know, where, okay, who's going to pick up the kids on Friday? Are you going to go to the baseball game? You know, et cetera. That's not a good date. Okay. So it has to, and of course, you know, maybe because we're Jewish, there has to be food.

42:44And for us women, again, I'm stereotyping, there needs to be chocolate. There has to be some kind of chocolate involved in the day. Deep conversation in chocolate. You know, it doesn't have to cost a lot. I mean, we used to go to this beautiful hotel, the Sorrento Hotel in Seattle has this gorgeous lobby. and we pretend to be guests. And we'd sit there in the lobby and there's a fireplace, you know, and we'd order a glass of wine and we'd just sit there and talk about, you know, how are you? What's it like to be you right now? But it was really scary for me. I'll tell you why. Because we kept asking each other these open-ended questions, you know, open-ended questions meaning ones that have big stories, you know, for their answer.

43:33And when John asked me the questions for me, he would take notes. And I always worried that, oh, my God, what I say is going to wind up in a book. In a book, yes. So be careful what you say. But it was fabulous. Yes. We commandeered those couches for four hours at a time. On that note for the four hours, so my wife and I, we started a matchmaking agency many, many years ago. and we would run a test on our clients. We would give them a 30-minute cutoff on their dates. We would say, go on this date. This is the first date. You're being matched first date. All you have is 30 minutes. And what would happen 100 % of the time is that if they broke the rule and that date was an hour, two hours, three hours of conversation, that's when we knew it was a match.

44:25And when I think back to my first date with my wife, It was an eight-hour conversation. That's what we are. That's what happened to us. That's what happened to us, too. Our first phone call was four hours long from, you know, sunlight to darkness. And it's like, where'd the sun go? Yes. And our ears hurt, you know, because those were the days when the phone was here. Yes. So that was a good sign. But I think this is a really important point, Paul, is that you can't overestimate the importance of doing these overnights, these romantic getaways in a relationship. You know, it's so easy to slip into a managerial marriage, you know, where the relationship comes last.

45:14and if you just open up your calendar and pick three times a year where you just go to a motel for an overnight it's magic it really makes a big difference if it's a good relationship because we don't know their satisfaction in the marriage so if they were only talking 35 minutes a week if you're doing an overnight with somebody you don't like don't interrupt me you would guess that they probably weren't particularly happy in the relationship, right? Right. So you think if you're doing an overnight with somebody you're married to and it's not going well, it's going to make it worse? Can't. Sure.

45:59Well, well. What are the, I mean, you wrote a whole book on this too. What are the seven principles of a successful marriage? Because ultimately, because it's not just a successful marriage, right? successful relationship, these principles still apply. So what are those seven? Well, the first one is to really actively build a map of your partner's internal world, asking these open-ended questions. And by the way, you can get those for free on the App Store. Go to the App Store and type Gottman Card Decks, and you'll download 14 card decks that allow you to ask these questions and even have 100 questions you can ask a woman, 100 questions you can ask a man about their erotic world as well.

46:48Okay. Okay, so love maps are really important, just really to keep knowing your partner. Yeah, honest and admiration is really important. And it can't be something you just think but never say and never express. It needs to be something that you say all the time, what you love about your partner, what you respect about your partner. That's super important. And taking it in when your partner says it about you instead of just, nah, you're making that up. So that's important. Yeah. I mean, on that point, I remember this one couple I worked with in therapy, and the wife said, you know, it would mean so much to me if you told me I was doing a good job raising our boys.

47:38And he said, compliments. Don't give them, don't want them. That was it. Wow. You know, so he wasn't going to express that fondness and admiration in that relationship. Big mistake. Right. Right. Third is that principle of turning towards. Yes. Right? So we explained that one. That is super important. Fourth is not something you actually can actively work on, but it's very, very important. And we call it either the positive perspective or the negative perspective about your partner. And that means what's your general attitude towards your partner? Do you give them the benefit of the doubt if they're not at their best?

48:29Or do you see everything they're doing wrong no matter what they're doing? Negative perspective. Okay. Then there's managing conflict. That's number five. Okay. Talked about. Number six is honoring their dreams, honoring each other's dreams, you know, those individual dreams like the one I described about Everest. Yes. And then seven is creating shared meaning, meaning talking about what makes your life meaningful. Okay. And what your values are. Trust and commitment are really the foundations of all this. You know, there's got to be. But by trust, we really mean that both people are thinking for two.

49:14They're really thinking of what, you know, what's going to benefit both of us. So, you know, even when Julie isn't with me, she's with me. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, you know, I'm thinking about her and, you know, and decisions I make and things I do. And I know she's got my back as well. Yes. Yes. And commitment is really communicating that you're one lucky person to be with this part. And this is your life's journey. This is your life's journey. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. I tell you what, even now pivoting, I hate because this is such a warm, fuzzy space, now pivoting to conflict. The horrible stuff.

49:55What is the number one reason for fights in a relationship? Nothing. It's nothing. is nothing. Most couples fight about absolutely nothing. Okay. So, you know, he's got the remote and he's switching channels and she says, leave it on that one. He says, just a minute, let me see what else is on. She says, no, leave it on that channel. No, let me see what else is on. And she says, I said leave it. And he says, you know, have it your way, damn it. And he walks out of the room. Okay. I don't want to watch television with you. You're such a jerk. What do they fight about? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

50:41That's right. No, you need to put the dishes in the dishwasher this way. Not that way. That's going to waste space. But isn't it something to someone? That's right. It is. Yeah, sure. Yes. Sure, sure. You know, so most of it really are these failed bids for connection, you know, that they just don't go right. And it seems like the conflict emerged out of nothing, out of thin air, out of the blue, right? And you can put it in categories and say, well, you know, it's about money or it's about sex or it's about in-laws or, you know. Kids. Kids. But most fighting really isn't about topics like that.

51:24So is it more so about how we manage the fight, right? Because you mentioned 69 % of conflict won't be resolved. That's right. It won't be. That's right. And I think if you even approach your relationship that way, you become empowered. Absolutely. But it's how you go about that. So what are the different conflict styles to manage the conflict? Well, you know, there are basically three different styles of managing conflict that we've seen in couples in the research. church, and they all work. They're all okay. So there's avoidant conflict, so they avoid conflicts. They may agree to disagree, or they'll just, nah, let's not talk about that.

52:11That's not a big deal. You know, they'll minimize it. They're not bringing out the conflict and really hashing it over. So they agree to disagree. That's conflict avoiders. The The second are people that we call validators. And they will express some of their emotion, but not super passionately and intensely. You know, they'll just be very calm, kind of rational, and they'll move very quickly into problem solving. But you know, there's a little bit of emotion that's expressed on each side. And finally, there are couples that we call volatiles, here I am, that are passionate and intense and express their emotion like right off the bat and really, really intensely and it's very heated and so on.

53:02And they do just fine too. Mixed couples. One's a validator and one's a volatile. Right. Like this? I'm the avoider. I'm an avoider and she's a volatile. Oi, what are you going to do? But as long as there is a five to one ratio of positive to negative or in conflict, all styles work. Is that the golden conflict? That's the golden conflict. Conflict ratio. That's right. Okay. So as long as it's five to one, but in a positive relationship. Five times more positive than negative. Than negative. Well, it's just so the 5 to 1 ratio is just describing the 15-minute conflict conversation you're having and how many positive exchanges are there or expressions of emotion compared to expressions of negativity.

53:52Within the 15 minutes. Within that 15 minutes, you see. So positivity can be just, you know, like that. It can just be a nod of the head. That's positive. Yeah, good point. Yeah, right. Or, oh, that's great. You know, that kind of stuff. That's all the positive stuff. It's just making eye contact and smiling if the other person makes a joke. That's positive. But it feels really different, sir. It's kind of like if you had a salt shaker, and the salt shaker contained all the ways you could be agreeable. You could say, hmm, good point, interesting, and you sprinkle that through the whole interaction.

54:31That's what a good relationship looks like. Whereas if you had a soul shaker that had all the ways you can disagree and say, no, that's wrong, ridiculous, sprinkle that through in the interaction, that's an unhappy marriage. Interesting. So we should be very conscious. Now I'm going to be even ultra conscious now. Yeah. Just to be as positive. And positive doesn't mean you agree with your partner. It means you're kind of saying, oh, no, tell me more about that. That's interesting. That's interesting. Oh, good point. Wow. Really? You think that? You know, those little things. Help me understand that.

55:07Help me understand that. And those things sprinkle through. Now it seems like you're both working on the same problem together. It's like you're pushing in the same direction. Yes. Whereas you sprinkle a disagreement. Nah, ridiculous. No. What? You know, and now it feels like you're pushing against each other. Okay, let's break this down a bit. It's all about embracing a mindset of curiosity instead of criticism. Now, differences don't have to be deal breakers if both partners approach them as opportunities to grow. Start by asking, what can I learn from my partner's perspective? And how can our differences complement us rather than divide us?

55:51This means trading judgment for empathy. Really listening without trying to change the other person. Now, couples who thrive see conflict as a chance to understand each other more deeply. By staying curious, appreciating strengths, and finding shared goals, they transform friction into connection. It's not about being the same. It's about growing stronger together. We often hear that if you're a couple and you have no conflict, that's a great relationship. Uh-oh. I would imagine you don't. That's the myth. That's the myth. That's the myth, yeah. Your purpose vis-a-vis conflict is to eliminate them, you know, to solve all your problems so you don't have conflict anymore.

56:36That's the myth, that that automatically means you have a great relationship. So, you know, the reality is that most people have conflicts. And as you pointed out, you know, from our research, 69 % of those conflicts are perpetual. They never go away. And that's because they're based on differences in lifestyle preferences or personality, right? So that's part of, you know, one of the myths. And another myth that plays into this is that you have to be totally compatible in order to have a good marriage. Long. In fact, the opposite is true. Okay. In that if you have lots of differences, first of all, those differences, if you talk about them, are actually enriching to the relationship.

57:32You're sharing experiences you've had that the other person probably won't have. And so that enriches everything that exists between the two of you. So, you know, compatibility isn't important really at all. Wow. That's big. I know. I know. That's the backdrop. I know. Neurotics can have a happy relationship. Yay. You don't have to be mature and, you know, really sophisticated and wise to have a great relationship. I was so thrilled to hear that. When that research came out, it's like, oh, my God. You can have a positive relationship. This is blowing my mind right now. It is because, you know, what I've often heard is that there needs to be some level of compatibility, you know, namely.

58:23And maturity. And maturity in particular, right? You need to be. But no. No. You're saying no. Not even in values. That's right. You can stumble through the world together. As long as you keep laughing. So opposites actually can attract and stay together. Sure. Well, quite often, you know, the source of perpetual conflicts are the same things that attracted to this person. You know, he's attracted to how extroverted she is. He wouldn't have a social life if she wasn't such a cheerful, you know, loving person. But then he goes, does she have to invite the whole church over every Sunday? There's no quietness in these people.

59:04Some of them are real loud, you know, and it's really obnoxious. So, you know, she loves the fact that he's so spontaneous, but then he can't stick to a plan, you know. So very often, you know, the things that attracted us to the person, there's a flip side, a dark side, that become a source of the perpetual problem. But it seems like what makes it work, though, is that willingness to want to work at it. That's right. For sure. You know. Have a dialogue with it. Yes. At bare minimum, what do you need? And I feel like from my experience, you need to have the partner that says, I don't know it all, but I'm willing to work towards it.

59:45There's a willingness. Absolutely. Is there anything else needed? Yeah, there's something else, which is really, there are some conflicts that are deal breakers. Okay. Okay. And those are the gridlock conflicts where they're gridlocked on a perpetual issue. And what needs to happen there is understanding has to precede problem solving. And we have these six questions we designed for those kinds of conflicts. And we use them on all conflicts, really, where people ask these questions to deepen their understanding of their partner's position on an issue. Could you give an example? Yeah. So Julie and I had a conflict about buying a vacation home.

1:00:33I was opposed to it because we were renting the vacation home, and it was a lot less expensive to rent than to actually buy one. She wanted to buy a small cabin, not a real expensive place, but I was opposed to it. We already had a house. We didn't need that. And I really was opposed to it. She really was much more involved in nature, and she wanted to be the steward of a part of nature on Orcus Island. And I would say, we could always rent. We don't need to do that. So we went to a therapist. You two went to a therapist? Yeah, we went to a therapist. This is before we created all of our methods.

1:01:13This is before we started working together. Oh, my goodness. And this therapist believed that what made relationships work was clear boundaries. So she said to me, John, you can say no to Julie about that cabin, and she has to live with it. You can create that boundary, and you're entitled to creating the boundary. And I said to Julie, do I sound like her? After the session. Yeah. And she said, yeah, you do. And I said, I don't want a relationship with boundaries. I don't understand why you want to have this thing. And she said, I don't understand why you don't. So we started talking. And the questions, these six questions, came out of that conversation one night.

1:02:04I'll never forget it, you know, in the living room. And here are the questions that are so important that really deepen understanding of your partner's position on an issue. The first one is, are there any ethics, values, beliefs that are part of your position on the issue? Secondly, is there some background or childhood history that is part of your position on the issue? Positive or negative? Yes. Oh, yeah, sure. The third is why is your position so important to you? What makes it so important to you, right? The fourth is what do you feel about it? Of course, what are your emotions regarding your position on the issue?

1:02:54The fifth is do you have an ideal dream here beneath your position on the issue? and oftentimes the dream has nothing to do with what they're fighting about. But it's deeply connected once you talk about it. And then the last question is, is there some underlying purpose or life meaning that is part of your position on the issue? So you see how deep those go and how those really unfold the internal world, the subterranean levels of what somebody is talking about. about in terms of should we get a cabin or not? Absolutely. Yeah. So I was opposed to it, it turned out, because my parents were Holocaust survivors and they had to flee Vienna with nothing but, you know, the shirts on their backs.

1:03:50And my dad communicated to me, you may have to leave someday. Anti-Semitism may arise in America and you may have to flee as well. So don't invest in land and property because you can't rely on it. And that set me against buying this property. And mine was this, that the home I grew up in was extremely unhappy and there was some mental illness in the family. And so beginning around age eight, I would leave the house in the middle of the night or at bedtime after everybody was asleep, go to a forest that was two blocks away, sleep in the forest overnight, turn around and come back before people woke up in the morning.

1:04:43And that was my sanity. So, and I always, I had a particular tree I slept in that was kind of like my mother tree. So... And having roots in wilderness was my saving grace, you see, having access to it. and she understood my reluctance we could arrive you know easy compromise you know and it worked out just beautifully that's an amazing unpacking it really is i think not only is it beneficial for your partner it's beneficial for yourself right oh totally understand your own position then we went to the lab and looked at 950 gridlock conflicts and in all of them we could identify these underlying dreams that they weren't talking about.

1:05:40And the master couples would do the same thing that Julie and I were doing, asking each other these questions. It's amazing. But just out of curiosity, what was the compromise? The compromise was that we would try buying a cabin. We'd buy a little cabin. We would try it out for what two years two years and if he really felt uncomfortable with it we would sell it yeah and you know after after a summer thing in our own place i'm sold it's quiet i could write you could write and read and read the phone didn't ring it was wonderful probably love it more than julie loved it yeah i did yeah often conflicts aren't just about the issues at hand they're rooted in deeper values or past experiences, like wanting to feel respected or secure.

1:06:34We must begin by exploring what truly matters and considering how your past might be shaping your reactions. Then share with your partner using I statements like, I get upset about this because it reminds me of feeling unheard as a child. This approach shifts the focus from blame to understanding. When both partners are transparent about their underlying emotions and dreams, it becomes easier to see the real needs behind the disagreement and find compromises that honor each other's deeper selves. On the edge of conflict is, what are the key techniques to repair this conflict that's happening? How do we go about most effectively repairing the conflict?

1:07:22Well, let's define some things. First of all, when we talk about repair, especially big conflicts, what we mean by that is when you have had a conflict, a conversation that was conflictual in the past, and it went really badly, and maybe it caused some emotional injury. somebody said something really insulting to the other person, it really hurt them, it still lives inside them like five years later sometimes, even longer. How do you repair that? So here's the answer to that. One, you're talking about how the communication went wrong. You're not trying to solve the problem you discussed. You don't even want to get back into that discussion, but rather how the communication went wrong.

1:08:17So first of all, you each talk about the feelings that came up for you during that conversation. Okay. And we have a whole process for that. Secondly, each one of you gets a turn to be a speaker while the other listens. And the speaker's job is to basically tell the story of what they experienced during that fight without blame, without criticism. I heard you say this. I imagined that it meant this. I thought that. I then said this. and inevitably both stories are going to be totally different, totally different. It's as if I asked you to draw a picture of that plant right there. Right. And I drew the plant, same plant, totally different pictures, right?

1:09:17That's the norm. Okay. So one speaks their story, the other takes notes, summarizes back what they heard, and gives a little validation, meaning if I were in your shoes, I could see how you would feel that way. It doesn't mean you agree. It just means, if I were you, I get it. But you know what, Julie, I would imagine there are many people listening, watching, saying, my partner's never going to spend the time to do that. Take notes. What are you talking about? They'll never do that. If you have a partner that's unwilling to even do that, is that a partner that you should stay with? Okay. So first of all, you don't make big decisions based on kind of a particular pattern even.

1:10:11Unless you've tried to get help and the help failed. Nobody takes relationships one-on-one in high school. People don't know how to have conflicts. They have no idea of how to speak to one another. So oftentimes they will mimic what they saw their families do. Or they may do the opposite, but that doesn't work either, right? So you have to really learn what are the alternative ways of talking to one another that work. You know, that's been a lot of the stuff that we've done. Third, you have to talk about did you get anything triggered within that exchange in that conflict. And triggers are usually traumatic memories or something really awful that happened to you that still lives inside of you.

1:11:04And it happened before this relationship ever started. Feelings like being rejected, being abandoned, being judged, you know, being bullied, etc. So you bring those up and out and share those with your partner. And notice you're not saying I'm sorry yet. Because if you say I'm sorry really quickly, you don't really know what you're apologizing for until you've unpacked all of this. So finally, with step four, you start to take responsibility. And you say, you know, what your general state of mind was during the incident. And what do you specifically regret saying or doing or not doing during the incident?

1:11:51And apologize for it. Hopefully your partner accepts your apology. And finally, look to the future. What's one thing you can do? What's one thing I can do to avoid this from happening again? Okay. That's what it takes. Okay, fair. I've got a very exciting announcement. But first, I want to ask you if you know which part of dating most of us worry about. If you guessed creating lasting relationships, you are right. But we all want to find a partner to grow old with and to share in life's experiences. That's why I'm delighted to announce today an exciting new podcast partnership with Tinder, where a relationship starts every three seconds.

1:12:35Now, I've worked as Tinder's global relationship insights expert for a few years. And during that time, I've seen firsthand that lasting relationships form using their app. Each week, I'll share everything I've learned about what makes the foundations for a great relationship and how to make it last. Tinder is for all types of relationships, and I truly believe it has the best tools to help you find love. It starts with a swipe. So download Tinder today, and let's find you a great relationship. At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time.

1:13:16Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back, and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. I'm not kidding when I say NFL by Abercrombie broke the internet last year, and I think this season's lineup is even cooler. And so does my wife, who keeps stealing all my hoodies. Stay fit for the season and Abercrombie's newest arrivals. Shop NFL by Abercrombie in the app, online, and in store.

1:13:51Julie, you mentioned contempt. And I know that's part of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Right. And that often predicts the demise of relationship. Yes. So what are the four horsemen in particular? Why is contempt so alarming, so disturbing? Well, let's start with the first one, which is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem between you on a personality flaw of your partner. So that's, you're so lazy, you're so selfish, you're so thoughtless, what's the matter with you? You always or you never. Those are also criticisms because they imply a personality flaw. So that's criticism. Contempt, as you bring up is the worst.

1:14:41It's sulfuric acid for a relationship. And what it really does, it's, first of all, it combines criticism with a little bit of disgust. Okay. You know, which is so shaming. And so the individual who is hearing the contempt feels themselves shrinking. You know, it's that feeling of shame. They're being shamed. They're wanting to sink through the floor and disappear. That's a sign of hearing contempt. Incidentally, it also destroys the immune system. So the number of times, for example, in one of these conflict conversations in the lab, that a person hears contempt, predicts how many infectious illnesses they're going to have in the next four years.

1:15:35Goodness. Yep. destroys the immune system. Isn't that incredible? That's incredible. And we know the mechanism because Ron Glazer and Jan Kukow Glazer actually took small bits of blood from newlywed couples who were arguing. And they're secreting cortisol and adrenaline, and that predicted divorce over a 10-year period. And Ron Glazer was an immunologist who studied the immune system in those drops of blood. And even in the half an hour with the four horsemen there, the immune system plummeted even in that half an hour. Isn't that incredible? So if you're in a relationship with a partner who is contemptuous, literally your physical health is being sapped.

1:16:27Isn't that incredible? That is incredible. So when that presents itself, does that mean it is time to go? No. No? Remember, relationships can change. We wouldn't be doing this work if they couldn't, right? That's true. That's the whole point of what you did. That's the point. That's the point. You know, however, if you have a partner who's absolutely unwilling to work on the relationship or to change, this is all your problem. I'm not doing anything wrong. You are. and they stay with that, then yes, that's a sign to get out. Because it's basically, it's emotional abuse. It's psychological abuse.

1:17:12It's the same as getting slapped across the face over and over again. Yeah. So, you don't want to stay with that. The third horseman is defensiveness. That's the hardest to eliminate because every single one of us is defensive. Sure. Except maybe the Dalai Lama. But even then, he was never married, right? That's right.

1:17:39And then the fourth one is what we call stonewalling. And that relates to all the physiological research that John and his colleagues did, where they saw that, you know, we could be talking just like this, you know, just looking just fine and relaxed. Yes. But in conflict. A heart rate is going up over 100 beats a minute. Okay. Is this flooding? Yes. This is flooding? This is flooding. And, you know, another phrase for that is fight or flight. People are going into fight or flight. And when you're in that state, you receive less blood to the prefrontal cortex. And that area of the brain is what controls good decision making, creative thinking, being able to problem solve, being able to listen accurately and really take in what the other person is saying.

1:18:36Instead, your partner could be saying, honey, I really love you. And you're hearing, you are ugly, you know. That's what's happening when you're flooded. And do men and women respond differently in those situations? We flood differently. Yes. I think they do. Yeah, let me describe it. You know, men, because autonomy is such a high value for men in our culture, and men have absorbed that, they give themselves permission to turn away and just be silent. but turn away. Women are basically raised to take care of relationships, to be eventually mothers, et cetera. They have to be good at relating. So women will look like this.

1:19:29Yes. Right? You're gone. They're looking at you, but nobody's home. Nobody's home. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how the flooding looks different. Well, it's also, I think this is controversial, Not everybody agrees with me, but I think men have more trouble self-soothing than women do. If they take a break from the conflict, they're really thinking about it and thinking about what they should say, and they stay aroused as a result of it. Okay. And I think it comes from evolutionary history as, you know, protectors of the tribe and cooperative hunters were good at maintaining vigilance and high arousal.

1:20:11Whereas women really needed to have the milk letdown response to feed infants. And that requires being able to self-soothe. And relax. And relax. So that's my take on the gender differences. So if we are flooded, how do we self-soothe? Okay, so here's what you do. Okay. So first of all, the minute you sense that you're getting flooded or maybe there's flooding going on with the other person, you ask to take a break. And you say when you'll come back to discuss it again. Because if you don't do that, your partner may feel rejected, abandoned. Maybe they'll never get back to it and so on. So that doesn't work.

1:20:58You've got to say when you'll come back. I'll be back in an hour. Also, don't think about the fight. That is the secret. As John pointed out, as long as you keep thinking about it, you stay physiologically aroused. But the minute you pick up a magazine and read it, or you go to the gym and work out, or you meditate or you read a book or you listen to music, you play music, anything that really takes your mind off the fight. Play with the dog. Play with the dog, play with the kids. That's what you need to do. And then you come back at the designated time and continue the conversation. Now, if you're not calm enough, ask for more time.

1:21:53I need another hour. Right. And the minimum amount of time a break should last is 20 to 30 minutes. Minimum. Minimum. Takes that long for the body to start metabolizing the stress hormones that have, you know, flooded your blood system. The maximum is 24 hours. Okay. And what's the best way to tell that you're flooded? You're repeating yourself. Louder. you think you're more persuasive. You say the same thing over again, louder. I said no. I said no. That's right. That's right. You know what I love about this too is it destroys what I believe is one of the greatest myths that exists in arguing and that is never go to bed angry.

1:22:43That's right. Isn't that rubbish? That's so dumb. Yeah, especially being in the UK. That's impossible. This is, we always hear it. And I say, but it doesn't make sense. Go to bed and get a good night's sleep. Yes. And then approach it in the morning. Yes. And don't try and resolve it late at night. Yeah. Because you're too tired. You can't do it. You don't have the brain power to do it. Yeah. Fair. What about, and we're coming to the end here, but we have to talk about betrayal. Mm-hmm. All right. Now, a question that I'm often asked, and I'd love to get your opinion on this, is, Paul, infidelity there's been infidelity in the relationship but namely i feel betrayed by my partner can we heal can we repair this yes yes you can okay yes you can um so we've developed a method for recovering from betrayal from affairs and we're doing a research study on a controlled research study and the first study that's ever been done on treating affairs.

1:23:52First control study. Ever. And so far what we're seeing is about a 75 % success rate, which is like Yahoo. We still need to do follow-ups and research, you know, after the therapy is long past. But, you know, we'll see. We're quite hopeful about it. And the method is called atone, attune, attach. So there's three stages. And the first stage, you have to do it in therapy. You can't do it by yourself. There's just too much inflammation in the relationship. Sure. So the first step is not to analyze what was wrong with the marriage. but rather for the person who did the betrayal to listen to the hurt partner's feelings and to also give the hurt person a chance to ask any question they want.

1:24:58Okay. And those questions have to be answered transparently and honestly. You've got to rebuild the beginning of trust. It's also really important to realize that typically, you know, I've never seen an exception to this, affairs cause PTSD in the hurt partner. Serious trauma because their world has exploded. Yes. The whole foundation of their life in that relationship and who this partner is has blown up. They don't know who that person is anymore. Okay. And so, you know, it's horrible, Will. have flashbacks, they'll have memories, not memories really, but fantasies. Fantasies, right. Right? Okay.

1:25:47So, the big emotional swings that her partner may be showing at home are part of PTSD, right? And the betraying partner has got to deeply express remorse and apology for what they've done, and they have to do it a million times. Especially because, contrary to what a lot of people think, PTSD doesn't disappear. It goes on forever. It's permanent. It is. And you may not get triggered as frequently or as intensely. But after an affair and you've done some work and you're doing better, the partner doesn't call you when they come home late from work. What's that her partner going to do? Exactly, triggers.

1:26:40Exactly right. So that's what we call the atone stage. Let me describe that. So by attune, we mean growing closer to one another, learning how to really attune to your partner's emotions, who is your partner, rebuilding the marriage with much healthier dynamics in place. Not avoiding conflict. And not avoiding conflict, right. Eliminating as much as you can any contempt, any criticism that was going on, and so on. So you're really learning. And we found that in the couples where there are affairs, a lot of times they've been avoiding conflict for years. The conflicts may have started off with a lot of criticism.

1:27:33And then the person receiving the criticism shut down, didn't want to hear anymore, so they withdrew. That's a problem. That's a problem. Then they get lonely. So you rebuild the marriage. And in attachment, what happens there is you're really recommitting to the relationship. You're recommitting your loyalty to this partner. Okay, fair enough. But what was most alarming there is that this can only be done through therapy. so what is the success rate of couples reconciling when infidelities happen or severe betrayal has happened without therapy what is that so you know over 80 percent um go for therapy but about half of the therapists never mention the affair never bring it up never bring it up never bring it up and let's just put that behind us And a lot of the therapy lasts one session, and then they quit, and they give up on the relationship.

1:28:41And only about 30 % of the therapists actually used any structured approach to dealing with the affair. And most of the structured approaches to dealing with the affair are highly flawed because what they try to do is they try to get the hurt partner to not be emotional. they're worried that the hurt partner will be so emotional it'll drive the other person away right so they try to shut down the person who's been betrayed and you're gonna lose that person right if you tell them you know not not to express their emotions which is why the atonement phase is so important you know but but but if properly gone through right these these phases not only So you're seeing, did you say a 75 %?

1:29:3075 % success rate. Yeah, and we're not just measuring their self-report about the relationship. We're actually observing their interactions, and they really are changing. They're coded double-blind by observers, so we know the foursmen are going away, and the relationship is really changing. Which is incredible. And I would imagine in most of those relationships, they're even stronger than they were to begin with. That's right. That's right. And they're back to having sex and enjoying sex with each other, too. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. It's a pretty effective therapy. So far, so good. Only two more questions for you.

1:30:13I really have 50, but because of you, I really have two more. At what point do you know your relationship is failing? You know, this sense of hollowness while you're sitting at dinner with this person, even on a date, and you feel hollow. And the relationship is gray. It's just gray, right? There's no life to it. It feels like ashes. Okay. Okay. And that's when you know it's failing. And we need to do something about it. Right. And therapy is number one. If people can afford it. Exactly. Right. So we've created, actually, we've wanted to democratize our methods. So we created with fabulous computer scientists and mathematicians who are close friends now a platform, a software platform that people can access on their phones where they can evaluate their relationship using valid methods that we've created to get a sense of what are the strengths and what are the challenges.

1:31:31And then we created 37 modules, 87 little films, videos that included all of our interventions that you would get in therapy that you can do in the privacy of your apartment without having to pay for therapy. All on your phone. All on your phone. And, you know, they include how not to do something and how to do something. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. It's really fun. It's cool. It's so important because it does feel like therapy is inaccessible to many. Yeah, right. Oh, totally. Something like what we've figured maybe 10 % of couples who are in trouble actually go to therapy. Only 10 %? Yeah.

1:32:2190 % don't, right? For the price of what a date would cost. A year of therapy. Inexpensively available right on your phone. Incredibly important. It's called Gottman Connect. Gottman Connect. You know, I joked with my wife about this. I said that the U.S., we should have relationship czars. Not drug czars. No, no, no. Relationship czars. And I nominate you, too. for the relationship czars of the United States. Absolutely. We'll be in the cabinet. Yes, you'll be in the cabinet. New cabinet position. Final question. All the guests get this. Final question. I would love to know, you know, you've had incredible conversations throughout your life.

1:33:10And I know you've had a lot of incredible conversations between the two of you. What was the most memorable conversation you've had in your life, not between the two of you, with someone else? Who was it with? Poof. and what did you talk about? You know, I think for me, it was when I was in therapy, you know, trying to recover from all the trauma and stuff I'd gone through.

1:33:40And I had a conversation with the therapist I was seeing at the time who used the word need. and I had never before that thought I had any. You know, I was such an introvert that, you know, I stayed away from people. And need? I have need? What do you mean I have needs? Yeah, of course, you have needs. You have needs. You deserve to have those needs met. What are needs? I don't even know what needs are because needs were not met in our family, except my mother's, in our family. So what are needs? So it was the introduction of the concept that I, I mean, believe it or not, that I had never really acknowledged, let alone recognized in myself.

1:34:40And I think I had that conversation at maybe 30, something like that. Wow. At 30? Yeah. first recognized that you had needs. Yeah, fair. And now he can't shut me up. I think for me it was a therapy I went into, individual therapy I went into, where my therapist really confronted me about commitment. And, you know, and I, you know, commitment, you put all your eggs in one basket, right? And everybody says don't put your eggs in one basket you know you're you're an idiot you know and i realized i was terrified of really committing you know i was married to julie and i realized without that commitment you know i really could not be a father i could not be a good husband and the therapist confronted me about that and it really opened my eyes i think that was probably the most important conversation I've ever had.

1:35:49What do you think about that conversation allowed you then to commit? He called me an asshole. Did he do it? Yeah. He said, you know, you're an asshole. You know, you're just in it for yourself. And I went, what are you talking about? You know, and he showed me that I was really, you know, I didn't have the courage to really be in this relationship fully and it really had a big impact on me and you know and I realized that I was I was being a coward you know about really being fully in this relationship I was scared because I'd been I'd been cheated on in other relationships you know quite a few times and I I wasn't trusting and I I was, you know, but I learned, you know, how right he was about it.

1:36:47And everything changed after that. Look at that. I tell you what, Julie and John Gottman, thank you. Paul, thank you. Thank you. This was a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. There's so much warmth coming from you. Every episode, I'm going to give you my top key takeaways from the conversation in an effort to make your life more fulfilling and your relationships stronger. Here's what stood out to me from today's episode. Number one, as John and Julie say, most couples argue about practically nothing. These small everyday frustrations can easily snowball into larger conflicts if we let them.

1:37:32The key is to focus on what truly matters. It's rarely worth the strain it can cause on your relationship. And number two, and can I say, this truly blew my mind, the Gottmans say that they are able to predict the number of infectious illnesses that a couple are going to have over the next four years based on how they speak to one another. Can you imagine that? How they speak to one another. A couple who speak with contempt towards each other tend to have a higher number of infectious illnesses than a couple who communicate positively with one another. So be respectful, not only for your relationship's sanity, but also for your partner's health.

1:38:15And number three, you don't need to be completely compatible to have a good marriage. In fact, the Gottman suggests that the opposite is true. Differences between partners can actually strengthen the relationship by providing opportunities to share unique perspectives and insights that the other person may not have. By openly discussing and embracing these differences, couples can create a richer, more dynamic connection that enhances their bond and understanding of each other. Compatibility, therefore, isn't as important as many people think it is. It's the willingness to explore and appreciate those differences that truly matters.

1:38:57I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. please don't forget to hit the subscribe button like comment and share the show and i'll see you on the next episode much love

1:39:24your sausage mcmuffin with egg didn't change your receipt did the sausage mcmuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just five dollars only at McDonald's for a limited time prices and participation may vary