The Hear’Say And Liberty X Feud That Changed British Pop

0:00Good energy in. Good energy out.

0:08Storm. Zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine and immunity support. Storm. Energy for life. Welcome to We're Talking. In this episode, I look back at pop stars with Michelle Heaton and Mylene Klaas, the early noughties reality TV show that created Hearsay, led to Liberty X, and changed British pop culture overnight.

0:43so how do you get on to pop stars yeah so the stage newspaper was a bi-weekly paper newspaper that listed all the auditions and what was happening in the industry i remember it said do you want to be the next five or spice girls i think it said we're looking for mixed group um here's the open auditions and i was like right right i wouldn't need to save money for london but actually they came to newcastle ah okay so i went along to the audition i uh i had a song prepared i was gonna sing everything i do i do it for you by brian adams that was like my go-to so in that moment it didn't felt too weird there was a lot of production around more than what i was used to okay but it wasn't anything different okay so the thought of it being a big massive tv show hadn't been on our horizon okay because it was the first one yes we hadn't seen anything like this before that's true because there's no x factor at this time pop stars was the first television uh what do you call it uh show that manufactured band okay yeah okay And so for me, it was another audition.

1:53And then you got through to the next round, and then you got given lyrics to sing. This chose everybody to sing Reach for the Stars from S Club 7. What was different about this was that we were all singing in front of each other. Okay. I was used to closed auditions, whereas this was open. Everybody was there, sat behind you, and people were cheering you along. And there was so much talent in that room. I thought I had absolutely no chance. And I wasn't a professional anything. I was a professional blagger. I still am. Like, I always say, fake it till you make it. I think a lot of people are like that.

2:27They just don't want to admit it. And then there was a weekend in Birmingham where there was the Final 50, and then London, and then that was a week, and then there was the Final 10. Then the Final 10. So now, was the show on air while you were going through? No. So it's pre-recorded? Yes. So it's all pre-recorded. And I had left my dancing gig at the nightclub to do this. And so about a week after they had their final 10, they come to our houses and tell us whether we're in or not. So obviously I didn't get in. And it was six months before they aired the first episode. So we all signed a contract, obviously saying that we wouldn't talk about it.

3:13Okay. So I couldn't say anything to anybody. and back then you know now I signed a d I might tell a few people but well obviously I was like I was scared like I was scared about saying the wrong thing so I didn't say anything to anybody and I had to beg for my job back they didn't want to give me my job back and I was begging because I was like that was it like there was no money you know yeah that that there was six or six five six months of auditioning just ended and then I'm back to square one yes and I had no job you know no career. I was almost 21. And those were like, back in those days, the cut off age at which they wanted people to audition.

3:53So I knew it was kind of like the end. On the show then, on Popstars, you get to the final 10. And I find this very interesting because I've talked to Mylene Klaas. She was in the final 10, right? And I understand what happens with her group but tell me about what happens to you yeah and the forming of Liberty X because I find this to be really interesting I am I'm sure Kel is gonna tell me I've got it wrong so I think I have got it slightly wrong I am I live in a bit of a bubble as well Paul so I kind of imagine things differently okay so how do you remember it so I remember it as we all stayed in touch the other five because the five in hearsay blocked us.

4:40Oh, really? But even before that? But they were probably told that. But at the time, we were sore. But even before that, though, because I wasn't here during that time, so I've only seen clips. So then the five that are then selected and when that group becomes hearsay, I would imagine they had a contract immediately and they become quite popular. yeah yeah i mean huge you know there was about six months between me being told i wasn't in and when the first one was aired and in that six months i believe obviously my lean would have had a better account of it that's when they they went somewhere they got this together yes they learned dance routines they recorded music they they did the whole pr thing um you know changed their four numbers which which i knew that i knew who was in it as well because i tried to ring them straight after.

5:32Nasty and Nigel said I wasn't in. And obviously they weren't picking up because their phones were gone. So this is where you think that they were told to block. Oh, absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. But why? I know that was a different time period, but why? I think it was just all to do with exclusivity and privacy and NDAs flying around and the fact that they, I don't know. I don't want to put words in their mouths. They can answer that. I don't know if they were told to, you know, block everybody, but we were. And so I believe or I like to believe that wasn't from them. It was from, you know, the voices above.

6:09Management, whatever. Because we all got on really well. And I wanted to ring Suzanne and, you know, and see how she got on and say, oh, my God, well done. And we didn't get the opportunity to do that, you know. And so I would imagine that wasn't on them. Okay, fair, fair. So then you are thinking about what your life is now going to be. What's it going to look like? So how does Liberty X come about? You know, we all stayed in touch. And then the time came around where ITV wanted us to come and do a bit of press for the show as the Five Losers. We weren't called the Five Losers by ITV, but we subsequently were called that henceforward.

6:51and I remember us my memory of it is that we got together the night before we were due to do Good Morning Britain on one of those shows Lorraine and we were at Kelly's apartment and Tony had arranged an Irish phone interview for radio and I remember we all started they asked us to sing So we all sang Bridge Under Troubled Water, which was the song in which we sang at the auditions. They were like, you guys should be a band. This is my fluffy memory of it. And so we were like, yeah, why not? And so the next day when we're live on TV and we sang that again, we said we want to be a band. We're going to be a band.

7:40We didn't really know what that looked like. We was like, why not? We weren't signed to ICV or pop stars. They never retained us. Okay. They let us go. That was a like that is that is basically the main reason why all of these participants in these shows henceforward are contracted to an inch of their life going forward because they missed they missed it with us Interesting. They let us go. So you're saying specifically because they missed your group. They missed an opportunity to micromanage and take commission from anybody else from that process or from that specific process. So Liberty X set a precedent now and therefore everyone gets signed.

8:27Yeah, because we were told throughout the whole process until that moment that the losers couldn't do anything. It was just the winners. It was just those five people it was not us we were done and that was it and so when we announced that we wanted to start as a band it was news to them and my fluffy um kind of rainbow covered memory is that when we announced it uh Richard Branson was watching the tv show we were on I believe it was Lorraine but I Kelly said it was another one and he rang Lorraine or got in touch with her somehow and said that he wanted he loved the idea of an underdog and he owned Virgin Records V2 Records and would love to sign us and and and that was that day oh wow and so I never left London We, you know, over the course of the next few weeks, Lorraine also, the lovely Lorraine, who's been with my personal journey throughout my whole time, she put us in contact with a manager, Gary, who subsequently became Liberty X's manager that day as well.

9:44Okay. And we got management in the next few weeks, who then helped financially relocate us to London until we started getting money from our advances. Yes. And we signed a, you know, a major record label. That's incredible. And we sat with Richard Branson, like, over the course of just maybe a few weeks. Yeah, that's incredible. Like, all of this happens. And I'm like, this is mental. Like we all thought this is absolutely insane. We are literally in Richard Branson's house. We are at his record label and we're doing a press conference. And he held me upside down. And Jessica, he poured champagne over her head.

10:28All in this unrealistic, like distorted reality. We are living right then. And it was mega. Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. I don't know about the pouring the champagne over the head, but it all sounds, I mean, what also is surreal. You couldn't make it up. Yeah, you can't make it up. And also, those stories don't happen. It feels like it doesn't happen anymore. It just doesn't happen. Just you're on TV. He sees you. He's like, hey, I'm going to sign you to a deal. OK. Yeah, OK. I want to ask you about this, is that I know that, who was it that called you all the flop stars? Because that seemed like that was a title that stuck.

11:14Yeah. From my memory, I believe it was hearsay. But I think it was fueled by press. Okay. So ultimately, press were the ones who labeled us the names. I see. And almost pinned you two against each other. Absolutely. So there was a war from the get-go. As soon as we released that we were going to be a band and start to release music, we were constantly battled against each other in a world that we were trying to navigate. You know, we didn't have those six months prior, like he used to say, had to adapt to what was coming and a team around them. You know, we were signed to an indie label effectively.

11:56And, you know, we weren't groomed. You know, we didn't have that team. And so we felt like we were almost set out to the lions. You know, we didn't have media training. It was just, I think what, what the attraction was for Liberty, towards Liberty, we were only Liberty at the time, was that we were raw. And that was quite evident because we didn't know when to stop talking or what not to say. And we were on the fact that we were able to, we were able to bring our creative energy to what we put out there, which usually doesn't happen to manufactured bands actually. But the press battled us and HSA off from the get-go, Flopstars, Wannabes, The Five Losers, and it was evident that they wanted us to fail.

12:47Not just HSA as a team, but the people around them. And so that would have then stirred up the pot with the HSA members in order to add fuel to the fire when they did interviews about how they were bigger and better and and and we were not so and that we were running on their cocktails yeah how did you how did you feel because you were these were your friends you know a few months prior when you were filming it felt it felt really harsh we didn't know how to navigate it uh it felt like it wasn't the five people that we met in the audition process um and and and along all of this all i kind of wanted to do was reach out to suzanne yeah because that's like one of the people that i got really close to and and be like how is it like what's it like yes like i bet it's amazing like i really wanted to share that with her and at no point did i see what we were doing is is hanging on their coattails and um i have to say like my skin's not, I say it's thick, just really paper thin.

13:56If it wasn't for the rest of the Liberty X members, I don't think I would have got through it as well as I did. But we had each other and that's what made our strength, I think, as a band. You know, one thing about Liberty X, and I say Liberty X because you were Liberty. Yeah. And then was it some other group had Liberty or I don't know. Some man group got a bit sore as a subject and wanted their name back. So they were Liberty. So I'm sure they've used it well. And so, yeah, they took us to court, you know. And then you become Liberty X. That's right. Now, I think what, and I don't want to even stir up more issues between you and Hearsay.

14:40Oh, no. But I can see Mylene's picture in my eyeline right here. Because we love Hearsay here, right? But one thing I didn't realize was how successful Liberty X was, right? So Liberty X, you have now, so achieved international success. So the album featuring Just a Little, right, that single was the ninth best-selling single in 2002. Yeah. Right? That's major. Yeah. Also, the group, you had 10 consecutive UK top 20 singles. So is it, or should I say, am I correct in saying that Liberty X sold more than Hearsay? Yeah, that would be correct. Yeah. Yeah, we did. We had three albums. And we had a big, massive sellout tour.

15:40We won a Brit Awards. for a song and for two album awards and we we won an Ivan Lavella award and so yes so putting it frankly yeah ultimately Liberty X were more successful than hearsay

16:02this episode is brought to you by Facebook so you were scrolling on marketplace and there it was the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message, and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. Your summer runs just got a boost of energy in Lululemon's Shake It Out shorts. Made in our ultra breezy lightweight swift fabric, the Shake It Out shorts have a flowy, layered hem and a comfy built-in liner.

16:45These shorts keep you locked in for miles with distraction-free storage and a waist fan that doesn't budge. They might just be the shortcut to your summer goals. Shop the Shake It Out shorts now at lululemon.com.

17:07the first question i have is that you're a classically trained artist so at all are you thinking there's any shame doing pop does family place any shame on you for for going in this direction my dad was horrified that i'd given up a year's work as mary magdalene and it's mary magdalene don't forget yes yes for six weeks in a band i was told you'll get six weeks work in a band over christmas and i was like well that sounds fun um i had a culture shock because i was sitting in this room and everyone was crying and everyone was unprepared and no one had learned their lines or their songs and they'd been given parts to learn and you're going to be given different configurations and they're going to see which songs blend with which voices and learn the dance moves.

17:56And I could not get it in my head that nobody was learning it. And that's not even Asian value. That's like Royal Academy and that's being in Miss Saigon and West End Theatre. And it's like just the training is do the job that someone's asked you to do. But in so doing it, I nearly lost out because one day the rehearsal pianist didn't show up. And that's how I got in the band. I was playing. I remember it was a certain member of Liberty X who was like, I don't know what I'm singing. I haven't cut my music. And I was like, I'll cut your music for you. And I cut it down to, I don't know, 20 bars.

18:29And I was playing it. And then Nigel Lithgow, Paul Asim, Nicky Chapman, they all walked in. Nigel said, you can play the piano. Why didn't you say? And I was like, you never asked. That sealed the deal. Yeah. All right. So you're now in the group and your thought is that you're going to be a part of something for just a few weeks and that's it. So help for everyone who had not seen Popstars though. How does the show end and then how does that catapult the group into the zeitgeist of the UK public? it's so weird because i i wrote two years worth of diaries around this entire experience and when i read them back when i look back at all of this and then i match it up to what was going on you know on the outside i suppose looking in i mean it was fame like you could never ever you know encounter it was like parody it was like something like a spinal tap or it was like the Beatles.

19:26People were coming to our shows and there were crushes at the signings and it was overnight fame selling millions of records that we'd only just heard the song ourselves. It was pretty instantaneous and I was so glad to have the rest of the band going through it at the same time. And so as much as we were all together all the time, probably driving each other nuts also we became like family because it was just us but we were at the absolute height it was both the halcyon days of fame yes because i don't know 25 million tuned in to see us become this band get the number one and what happens now it was 25 million yeah it was event viewing it was just the beginning of the internet it's the beginning of camera phones because we were we were right at the very dawn of it i remember it very clearly somebody first put in the phone in my face and Danny from the band going, oh my God, the phones have got cameras now.

20:28We're not safe. It was just, it was all happening at once. Because before that, we had the flip phones. We were like, we were, we were advertising the flip phones. Yeah. I mean, that's practically, at that time, that's practically half the population of the UK. That's incredible. Oh, it was, it's so, you know, I say it to my children now, try to paint the picture for them what it was like. but it was just it was overnight fame and it was just huge so pure and simple first right it debuts at number one in the uk charts it becomes the fastest selling debut single at the time right so sets a record for that so can we speak to what actually happened behind the scenes here's when i once again i was not here so i didn't live through it but i've now experienced You've lived through the culture of it.

21:18I've lived through the culture of it for sure. And I've lived and I've now lived through the research of it. And what I find to be so fascinating is I don't think I've ever seen a group go from obscurity to notoriety and then break up in such a short period of time. Yeah. Because it was in essence, correct me if I'm wrong here, 2000, 2001. Yeah. To 2002. About 18 months. 18 months. I mean, we thought we were going to be bigger than you two. We didn't even get, I don't know, we got out of one territory. I think we got number one in New Zealand as well. Okay. But now I know the nature of the beast and how it worked and how it operated.

22:00You know, it's that be careful what you wish for. We had everything. But we were also broke. We had these number ones, but, you know, we didn't have the advance through yet. We didn't know how the business side of music worked. I knew music. I knew every chord. I knew some of the chords better than the producers working with us. But I didn't know business. Did you have agents assigned to you? Oh, boy, did we have agents. But problem number two, it just is an industry, as we are learning, that can attract any facet of society, any kind of character. There is no graded scheme of entry. You can have a mate who's like, oh, do you know what?

22:37My brother drives cars. And suddenly the next thing you know, he's the driver. Next thing you know, he's the tool manager. Suddenly you can work your way up in a very different manner and you don't know, you know, no one's DBS checked. Nobody's, there's nothing. It's just, it's not like, hi, I'm a brain surgeon. I'll have a go. Right. It's a very different set of rules and operational skills. The music industry is the Wild West. Yes. Now, when did you first recognize it was the Wild West? Because I would imagine that when you enter the show, you're still somewhat guarded. You're very optimistic about what's going to happen.

23:11and you don't know how large you're going to be. And then as the notoriety comes, that's when, should I say, leeches come. Oh, yeah. Right? But what was the first moment where you realized, oh, my God, what am I doing here? What's going on? What is this? I mean, there were so many of those epiphanies. It was just relentless. I think it was what the gloves came off when anyone could say anything they wanted to about your families I found information where they were trying to find out about my family in the Philippines you know really digging deep and you are then answerable to all those people you have a responsibility so you're not now just singing pure and simple all three and a half minutes of it on stage and learning the dance routines you're now trying to look after your family there's people coming out that suddenly they need money i mean i never knew i had so much family it was suddenly like interesting so people coming out the woodwork oh yeah best friends that you hadn't spoken to everybody you know and it's a lot it's a lot for young minds to deal with yes on top of the constant scrutiny the body image scrutiny sexuality who you're with who you're not with what you said what you didn't say so who do you trust at this time only each other only each other i mean my hands are tied because there's so much i would love to say to you but obviously there was other forces at play as well with bone tappings and things but i guess you can move between the lines that the only time we can really be really safe is when we're just talking to each other but then you imagine five of us trauma bonded all going through the same thing all terrified that each other's secrets or family secrets or worries or woes and and sometimes those stories would be fake sometimes those stories would be planted sometimes those stories yeah are are used to cover up something else like you never know what's true well you gotta remember no agent is a lone shark all the agents like you know they might have other bands so all you need to do if you're really if you really want to start getting into it is match up which agent has which bands and match up which person got protected and suddenly it all starts to make sense and then suddenly you start realizing well who is who's playing what who's which role yeah so is it did you feel protected during that time we were not protected we were not protected we were almost bait i would say i've been screwed over by agents managers dodgy accountants can we talk about the the end of of the group before it disbanded yeah because it was one thing that i read is that you know there were moments where you were touring and as you said it's people it's thousands upon thousands showing up cheering you on yeah but then there were moments towards the end where there weren't cheers no no i remember someone throwing chicken chow mein at me that's how the The racism came back in again on stage.

26:26Things like that. Yeah.

26:30Or nobody showing up. No manager. No tour manager. I remember my brother, because he wasn't old enough to drive, getting on his bike to drop off a DAT tape so that we could perform. So the group could perform. I got told by my manager, because I said, the backdrop's really creased. What are we going to do? And he went, you're going to have to iron it. Have you ever seen how big a backdrop is? Literally, you're going to have to iron it. He's like, you're going to have to iron it. I'm like, where are you? Turned out he was where he shouldn't have been. So then I had a phone call from his wife. That's how hearsay ended.

27:03It fizzled. It just was left. It was just left to die. I closed down. I turned the lights out. Literally. I literally turned the lights out. And it was heartbreaking because at the time I didn't want it to end. It was, we took a vote. Everything was about a vote. And I've made peace with it now because I realized that we're all kids. None of us, none of us are in control of it. but I didn't want it to end. But the vote was yes. And I remember walking into a meeting where one guy said, we've got 250 ,000 Easter eggs with your faces on them. What are we going to do? I was like, I don't know. Like it almost, it was almost comical.

27:43What, I haven't got an answer. Yes. As to what you're going to do with 250 ,000. But I can imagine, because if I'm on the receiving end now and I've put all my money into this group and they can't get their act together and I've invested all this money and Easter's on the way. But how does the group go on this demise so quickly? So I understand the pressure being placed. I understand that the agents are not consistent. I understand all of those aspects. But at the same time, it was like it was consistent hits. The debut album reached number one and sold over a million copies. So you were red hot.

28:25The group was red hot. How does it fall off so quickly? I think we just didn't have anyone who was solidifying us as a group. So at the time, it's the same old story, but it was major mismanagement. Because as a mom now, I know that you have to rally the troops. Yes. And if you've got people going off in different directions, as a mom someone's got to bring you all back together and go right this is what we're doing this is when we're doing it what does the group need you're only as strong as the weakest performer person personality whatever's going on there with that person and in that moment you carry them and when I look back at what was going on we wouldn't we were not we were not a solid unit and we were not being encouraged to be either so if there was a cheeky booking here and there was a a shoot here well if i'm the manager and i'm like well let's bring in the money i'd just send everyone out in one of these separate gigs and in so doing you then cause division in the ranks i see everyone had come from humble beginnings not one person in that band had some privileged upbringing and so that was taken advantage of and and rather than seeing the power of the group we were divided.

29:40I see. Can you disclose how much you made during that period? It's not a patch on one I make now because it was split between five, the band, then it was split with the manager, six, then it was split the record company, seven, then it was split with the TV company, eight, then you bring in tax. I mean, all those people that were trying to take advantage of They did it with our time and our image, and they obviously took their cut, but we weren't making the amount of money that people think we were. I mean, we've just talked about a lot of challenging moments, right, in that 18 months, but I would imagine there were some incredible moments.

30:22Oh, dude, we sang with Stevie Wonder. We sang with Lionel Richie. Did you? We sang with Lionel Richie. Oh, my gosh! He walked out on stage, and one of us cried, and one of us... We were just... I was just, it's Lionel Richie. it's like I played the piano for Shaka Khan it's like you know all the things you dream of doing and then you're doing them yes it's just magical and that's what makes it worth it what was the most I mean performing with uh Lionel Richie playing for Shaka Khan I mean those are those are up there was there anything that you think this is like this is what I will tell my grandchildren this moment.

31:00Okay, so the very first concert that I ever went to was my own, and it was at Wembley. So when I said, hello Wembley, I couldn't even get the words out because it was just magic. And if you want to hear the full unfiltered stories from today's guest, you can check them out on the We Need To Talk page. Drop a like, leave a comment, and hit subscribe. See you next week.