The Man Behind Attachment Styles Explains Secure Love

0:02The 2026 Chevy Equinox is more than an SUV. It's your Sunday tailgate and your parking lot snack bar. Your lucky jersey, your chairs, and your big cooler fit perfectly in your even bigger cargo space. And when it's go time, your 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen's got the playbook, the playlist, and the tech to stay a step ahead. It's more than an SUV. It's your Equinox. Chevrolet. Together, let's drive. Dr. Amir Levine, your book, Secure, you have said something that is going to drive relationship experts mad. I can think about a couple of things. Oh, yeah. That relationships don't need. Oh, that one.

0:44Yes, I love that one. That's big. From an attachment perspective, I find that.

0:56Hey there, before we begin the episode, I just want to say thank you for choosing We Need to Talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life, and I want to continue to share it with you. So hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second, and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast.

1:28So now you said a secure love is an open love, right? And I think this does lead to, I think, one of the hottest takes in the book. You have said something that is going to drive relationship experts mad in this book, right? And you know what this is? What is it? This is... I can think about a couple of things. Oh, yeah. Well, actually, which, well, let me, I'll go to mine. Okay, okay. That relationships don't need boundaries. Oh, that one. Yes, I love that one. That's big. Okay, okay, yeah, no. And I even write in the book that I'm sort of like, that sometimes I like to rattle people. So I will say because that's how we learn and it makes us think.

2:14And as a scientist, I've always learned to challenge my thinking. And by all means, I'm always I'm open to change my mind and to give me sort of information that will. So I'm really open. But the way that I see things now is that as an attachment person coming from an attachment perspective, I find that it's like a couple's dance, you know, the walls or the tango where you take a step forward, they take a step back. there's like this, it sort of moves seamlessly. And yeah, you may step on one another and then you correct and you sort of correct your steps and you learn how to do it better. But it's different than saying, no, I'm drawing a line in the sand here and you can cross it.

3:00It creates a disconnect in the relationship. I mean, you could say, hey, this is really important for me. Like, how can you make it work? But it's not like usually boundaries like, okay, this is what I need. And if you can meet that need, then too bad. But that leaves the other person on the outside. Right. Because the way that you phrased it to me sounded like an ultimatum. If you can't meet this need, I'm done, or there's this consequence. Versus, this is my standard. This is what I require. So for example, let's say we're in a marriage. we need to have date night every week in order for me to feel connected to you.

3:43Why is that a boundary? I don't see that as a boundary. That's like an ask. It's an ask. It's a beautiful ask. Okay. I mean, I guess it depends. From a secure point of view, it's a beautiful ask. If you avoid it, it's like, what? What do you have to me? That's true. And anxious, that could be a boundary. But let me give you an example. So here's a good example of what he's like, oh, we need to have a date night. But someone of one is like, I don't know. But then if you're like from a secure environment, you know, you know, like she doesn't really like to sit across from me and it feels too intense.

4:20Maybe we can go maybe. And that's actually been shown that maybe we can go on on a hike together. Who says a date has to be in a restaurant like in a noisy environment? Right. Maybe that's how they can feel closer. And it's like, oh, yeah, I'd love to go on a walk like every like like even more often. Yes. So that's the difference. It's like you said, no, I need to have this where the solution comes from trying to work with both of your biology to find what actually is the most effective rather than this is what I need. I need to sort of come to this restaurant and sit across from me and talk to me.

4:57Okay. I like it. I like it. So just to be clear, are you saying that if you are secure as an adult, but you are in a close relationship with someone who's anxious, someone who's not secure, and your environment perhaps is not secure, that you can actually shift from being secure to… Oh, 100%. Okay. Yes, of course. And you can also shift to being not secure. But secures are amazing. It's like in helping people shift their even in little things, even if you're they even will help you become more secure. I'll give you an example. It was just something that happened a few weeks ago. We were going to cross the street.

5:39And then the woman who was driving, instead of stopping, she sped up. And I was like, you see what she did? She's like, I mean, like, she's like, she's so impolite. She didn't stop. And my partner said, well, actually, I was thinking about it. Like, she sped up so we can cross the street faster. So all of a sudden, he gave me like a different sort of way of looking at it. Yes. And you know, since then, and he actually said something, oh, wow, you really shifted your way. I said, I decided, okay, you know what, I'm going to adopt this. And then whenever, like, I don't drive much, but whenever I see people do something like butting in or in traffic, I say, well, they made a mistake.

6:20Or they just like, yeah, they didn't really see who was coming. And sort of like, actually, I found that I give them more the benefit of the doubt. And he said, oh, wow, it's been a real shift. So I really try, whatever I write there, I also use myself to help myself. Because it's really more about, again, it's about the exploratory drive. Why would I spend my energy getting upset about someone else if I can see it in a little bit different way? Yes. And it frees up more energy for me to think, to write, to do all the things that I want to do. Yes. Instead of create those better sinis. Yes, yes.

6:55Now, talking about yourself, can we talk about yourself? Yes, of course. And your upbringing and how you were able to, I think, kind of become this phenomenal person that sits in front of me today. I find the research that I've done on you as a little boy and that environment to be just fascinating. So could you describe how you grew up and how you believe that has impacted who you are today? So I had a very, it's like, I feel, again, it was like, I feel very fortunate that I had a very unusual upbringing in the sense that my mom had a very progressive ideas about education. and so I basically she also grew up in that same kind of educational the school that she went to they never actually believed in grades and they really put more emphasis on creativity and sort of thinking original thoughts they wouldn't even give them and they said they didn't want to get an A plus or they always wanted to get this is original this is really thought provoking that was the grades that they were like, like, like really looking for.

8:14And so my mom, she didn't believe in grades. And also when I didn't have to go to school, I could always stay at home and not go to school if I didn't want to, especially on days that we had exams, I didn't have to go because she didn't believe in grades. So I did stay home a lot. And I read a lot. We had a like a big library. And like, I read all sorts of stuff from a very, very young age, things that are probably maybe it was completely uncensored things that maybe I shouldn't have read I didn't even understand what I was reading like a sort of a book about the Kama Sutra like what is this seven-year-old yes but there was such an openness to explore and and she was also and I guess that's where my love for science and also for popular science came from.

9:05She was an editor for something similar to Scientific American. And we had a lot of really living with her. It was like living in a book club. There was really a lot of pursuit about intellectual ideas. That's the environment I grew up in. And I'm very, very thankful to that. I feel very fortunate. Oh my gosh. Didn't have to go to school on exam days. Yes. I mean, who wants to go to school on exam days? And I took advantage of it. And I ended up getting good grades, because I ended up going to medical school. And somehow it all worked. Maybe it wouldn't have worked for other people. It did really work in my case.

9:44Yes.

9:47Can anyone tell me why roaming fees are always so expensive? I feel like every time I get back from traveling overseas, I'm hit with a jaw-dropping phone bill. It's actually why I'm excited to try our new partner, Saley, an eSIM app that gives you a safe and secure data connection anytime you travel and, most importantly, without any expensive roaming charges. Now, quite a few of my team used Saley during our last trip to LA, and all accounts were that it was reliable and easy to set up. Saley is available in over 200 destinations, and it comes with built-in security features like web protection and ad blockers, the stuff you don't typically think about.

10:24But actually, when you're traveling is really important to keep your data protected. But the part that really pulls me in is that I can change my online location to the UK. So even if I'm somewhere else, any location blocked content is still accessible. To give it a try, download Saley from the App Store or scan the QR code on the screen. And if you want 15 % off your first purchase, make sure you use my code WNTT at checkout. Details are in the episode description. Experience a membership that backs what you're building with American Express Business Platinum. Get two times membership rewards points per dollar on eligible purchases and key business categories, as well as on each eligible purchase of$5 ,000 or more on up to$2 million in eligible purchases per calendar year.

11:13American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com slash business dash platinum.

11:26And so how do you think that that informs who you are today? I think I still, and you know, I have a, it's both my sister and I grew up in that, and we still are that way. And a lot of these books are really a result of conversation. This particular secure is a result of conversations that we have together. We walk together and talk about ideas. That's what we did when I came home from school. We would sit around. She really spent a lot of time with us. And she was really interested in what we had to say and how to think about things and to see the original as a different way of to challenge things, not to be afraid, to try to see things differently.

12:08So it's just a direct continuation. I'm just continuing along the same path of what I find really fascinating and interesting. Yes, yes. Now, this is one that I couldn't wait to ask you, but I wanted to wait until the end. Okay. what is your attachment style? I think when I look at my attachment topography, I think some of it is similar to yours, actually. In some ways, I'm like with my partner and my sister. My sister is like, you won't even see the dot. It's all the way down at the very corner. I believe that. Yes, she's like, wow, she's an amazing presence in my life. And she really, a lot of it, I have to thank her for this book.

12:48I don't think, I'm an attachment person. It's hard for me to create something. I don't think none of us create something all alone, really. We're not. We just don't. Very, very, like very rare. But with my partner, definitely secure. With my friends, I think I'm a little bit more avoidant like you. But I try to really respond right away. I've sort of become better at that. Like to the ones who need it. Not everybody needs it. So just like to be, to choose the right. And then I definitely, in some of my relationships earlier on, I was more like anxious. And that's why I wrote this. I started off as writing something like a class for college and high school students.

13:29Because a while ago I saw it. Every once in a while they revive it on Broadway. There is like, it's called Spring Awakening. And it's that show where they all go through terrible heartaches. And it's a really tragic thing that happens with many of them. And I witnessed it as a child psychiatrist when that whole romantic relationship comes online. But not only, also with friendships. In adolescence, there's so much pain. And then I discovered also in middle school with friends. But in adolescence, around romantic relationships, there's so much pain that comes on. And people don't have a roadmap to learn about security.

14:07No one teaches that. So I started it off as like thinking about something to prepare for college and high school. so kids will learn, so they'll have a better framework to how to sort of work on all those relationships. Like I have this woman who, when she was 87, she actually, like, when she started a relationship, and she still is like, oh, my God, he hasn't called me. When is he going to text me? What's going to happen? It's like back like you're 16 again. Yes. So we can all benefit from it, and that's why I decided to write Secure. So everybody, no matter what age you are, you can sort of still create a more secure life for yourself.

14:48Yes. And the last topic I have, but I think it speaks to this exactly what you're saying, is how secure speaks to everyone is as a parent. Oh, yes. That's a big one. Yeah, to raise. What do you think are, you know, what's the most effective strategy to raise a secure child? First of all, the one first thing that I think people need to think about, if you understand that who you are as a child doesn't really like there's a lot more that contributes to your attachment style in adulthood than what happened to you as a child. So I think that takes a lot of the blame of the parents. And again, I told you, don't blame the parents for avoidance.

15:25So as a parent yourself, not to think, oh, my God, I did this. I'm going to forever like damage my child. It doesn't work that way. It really doesn't work that way. So if you can take out that sort of sting of blame, then you can give them more ease to sort of help parents sort of be more at ease with things. I think that's helpful. But I also think as a parent, you see these things, how they struggle in relationships, with friendships, how painful it can be. So I really think teaching that idea of the consistent, available, responsive. Actually, I teach psychology, psychologists at Columbia. We have a clinical seminar and I teach how to do therapy.

16:07and I bring in a little excerpt when there's a girl that talks about how her best friend kind of like dissed her and her mother shows, you know what, we'll show her we'll create this party, we're not going to invite her and she's going to come grovel only when she cries and grovel only then will you accept her and they do that and she comes crying and groveling and she accepts her but what the mother doesn't know and doesn't understand because she doesn't have that whole carpsimis understanding is that she's only, okay, now the friend is back, but she's perpetuated sort of like an insecure relationship for her daughter.

16:43Yes. And by actually saying, you know what, so maybe this friend who is not carp, maybe you should look for more carp friends. And really teaching. So once you have the lingo, you can teach kids also for them how to create a secure environment for them. But if you don't know it, then sometimes parents do the opposite. it. Yes. It seems like carp simi is the... For me, at least, that's kind of... I look for something simple that people can use to create a more secure life. Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. The final question, and everyone gets this, is out of all of the conversations you've had throughout your entire life, which one stands as the most memorable?

17:26Who was it with and what did you learn? I'm going to make you start crying because I really think about, I love talking to my mom. And, you know, we used to walk. We used to live close to one another. I'm so sorry. And we would walk. And so I would walk her home. But then we'd realize, oh, the conversation is not over yet. So we'd walk back. And then we'd walk again. And that's when you asked me. That's what I was thinking about. Yes. Thank you. See, once again, beautiful. Thank you. Yes. You know, I think that this last question that I asked, you know, it's interesting. It always evokes something.

18:06It does. Yeah. There's some pull on emotion. Yeah. When we go back and we think because we think about our loved ones. Right, exactly. I believe. And that's like secure priming also. It's like with such a like a meaningful. Yeah, I agree with you. Yes. Who we felt most secure with. Yeah. Yes. So it is, you know, and it's my favorite question. It's a great question. Look what you did to me. Well, thank you. And thank, just real, going back to everything I've been saying is thank you. You know, I always say that I try and I tell my boys, I say, you know, we have limited time here on this earth. Make it meaningful.

18:47Oh, I totally agree. Impact someone's life. Make it better. Your work has made millions. Thank you. of us better. Thank you. So thank you so much. Thank you. And I hope that with this one, I even gave like a clearer roadmap to sort of how to do it just beyond the romantic relationships. That was really important to me. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

19:13Dr. Amir Levine, you know, this could be one of my favorite things about the pod, I think. You know, it's so wild. Like we have so many incredible guests. but to talk to the people that I base my work on is just mind-blowing to me, and it's such a privilege and a blessing. And he is one. You know, when Attached came out, which is, what, 2010, when that book came out, I remember reading it, thinking, this is really good, but I didn't realize how impactful the book was going to be to an entire industry. I mean, you think, how many people talk about their attachment style? Like, everyone, to the point where, you know, he was very humble.

20:06He said, you know, attachment style came from Ainsworth, right? John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth work, absolutely. But he was the first to translate that work to adults and romantic partners. Like, he's an icon. And his new book, Secure, is just as great. It's just as great because it removes just the self-identification piece. And it pulls out to, okay, how do you apply this theory to your life? From the conversation, I mean, and this shows you how an ego stroke is always good, is, well, I learned that we have basically the same attachment styles to our partners and friends and coworkers. So when I was like, all right, if we have this same attachment style, my attachment style can't be that all bad.

21:05It can't be bad. He destroyed the myth of your attachment style as a child translating to your attachment style as an adult. We always hear it. That's completely mislabeled. That is a myth. And quite honestly, I have participated in perpetuating that myth myself. And when I say I've participated is I've said countless times, oh, wow, your parents showed you love in this way. Therefore, this is most likely your attachment style today. Those two things don't necessarily go hand in hand. So I like that he destroyed that myth. And then secondly to his point is it's inspirational. It shows that you could have been non-secure as a child and become secure as an adult.

22:00I am exactly what this data shows. I'm exactly who he described. I am avoidant with my friends. But it's not because I don't care about them. I don't love them. But I think about even my best friends. I will go weeks without a message. And, you know, they all react differently. And now I understand that their reaction could also be based on their attachment. Some are just like, all right, cool, that's the way Paul rolls. Some just don't say anything back to me, right? Others are like checking in, like, what's going on? What's going on? You know, so just that, it's interesting how a label can help to ease your mind about something.

23:00And so I did, I am walking away distinctly with that. But then also maybe number three is now how to manage that with the carp simies that he was talking about. these interactions, but making sure that they're consistent and reliable, predictable. Now I understand how I can use that one tool just to help to manage those relationships. Because ultimately, this is also something that I learned with Dr. Levine, is by not doing that, I am causing severe pain. the highest level of brain, well, he didn't use the word trauma, but the highest level of pain that I can give to someone I love by not interacting with them.

23:51I felt guilty and I would always question, why am I doing this? Why am I acting this way to my best friends? Why am I doing that? And I was thinking, okay, something's wrong with me. Like, or maybe does it mean that I don't really like them? Like, what is it? You know, and I would feel guilty and shame, but now I understand this is the way I'm programmed, you know? And that just understanding that I'm programmed that way reduces the guilt and the shame. And then having the tool further reduces any anxiety that I have around it. The too quick, like perhaps even today, is I'm going to share this and say I just learned I'm avoidant when it comes to my friendships.

24:48I think that's major. And also in my topography that I did, it shows I don't have a problem sharing that with him because I'm still in that secure box, I guess, suggests that I don't have an issue going to them, but I just don't go to them. Isn't it interesting that the guy who didn't have to take exams becomes, you know, he's a professor, intellectual. Isn't that interesting? I'll also take away what he shared, the most memorable moment with his mother. I mean, that really got me. And yeah, you think about how just wanting to continue to engage with his mother, how they would just continue that walk.

25:41But understanding how she raised him, understanding the premium that he places on idea exchange, you could see how that's love. You may not know his name, but you know his work. And I guarantee not only do you know his work, but you have implemented his work in your life. So now it's time to know his name, Dr. Amir Levine. What is the number one reason for fights in a relationship? Nothing. Most couples fight about absolutely nothing. Oh, really? However, we found that the number of times that a person hears contempt predicts how many infectious illnesses they're gonna have in the next four years.

26:27Goodness. Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman, leading experts in relationship research with over 50 years of experience. John is renowned for his groundbreaking work on marital stability while Julie is an acclaimed clinical psychologist. Men who kiss their wives goodbye live an average of five years longer than men who don't. We've really started to understand what makes the difference between people People have a great sex life, and people say they have an awful sex life. Please tell us. Pick three times a year where you just go to a motel for an overnight. You know, it's magic. If it's a good relationship.

27:03Yeah, but that was something. Don't interrupt you. We went to a therapist. You too went to a therapist. Yeah, this therapist believed that what made relationships work was clear boundaries. She said to me, John, you can say no to Julie. And I said to Julie, do I sound like her? And she said, yeah, you do. But when you consider the divorce rate has been at 50 % for decades, you realize their faith in marriage has been broken. So I ask you, is marriage outdated?