“The Next Morning I Was Full Of Anxiety” Calum Scott Reveals What REALLY Happened on Britain’s Got Talent & Battle With Body Dysmorphia “I Told Myself ‘You’re Disgusting’”

36:13I can't see how this would get any better. and I'm just like, what is going on? Like, couldn't believe it. What is the first thing that you say to your sister? Sorry was the first thing I said to her. Because I was just so aware that my life had been changed and feeling like I'm just pulling that rug from under her and taking the limelight and taking the spotlight off of her. So sorry was the first thing I said. She was like, they'll be daft. and we had a hurrican and then, you know, we had to let the dust settle a bit. I mean, my mum, bless her, I don't know how she coped in the audience watching her daughter, you know, not get through and get four nerves and then, you know, watching me and getting a golden buzzer and God knows how she must have felt.

37:00She must have just been so, like, pulled apart in terms of how she could be because she wants to be there for her daughter but wants to celebrate with her son. It's like... Yeah, the emotional balance is, yeah, is unreal. Yeah. And now I'm going to go back and watch. Yeah, yeah, and you'll see it within a different light now. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it is 10 years. Yeah. Almost to the week of that audition. Yeah, yeah. So a decade ago. Yeah. Right. When you reflect back now, not just the audition, but the entire experience of Britain's Got Talent. Yeah. What did it mean to you in your career?

37:42when I look back now, I mean, it was like the magic beans, you know, Jack and the Beanstalk kind of situation. It was the moment that changed everything for me. I think had I not had that audition, I'd have probably gone back to Hull, you know, Maroon 4, toured that around. I'm sure it would have been a success as well. I'm sure we would have done a great job. But I'm not sure I'd be where I'm at. I was actually literally just over in Montreal on a TV show called Star Academy, which is like their X Factor, the voice kind of vibe. And I pulled the contestants aside and I just said to them, like, look, this show is very important, but I am here as evidence that there is a career outside of this and there is a future for all of you.

38:24And it feels quite life-affirming to sit here and to be reflecting with you on my audition. And I'm very grateful for it, you know. I wouldn't change a thing. I feel like, for better or for worse, this audition, it was the start of my career. And I've done a lot of work since to not distance myself from it, but to show people that there is so much more to me than that one moment. Than that one moment. Now, did you have this mindset at the end of the series? Because I understand you came in sixth. Sixth. I lost to a dog, Paul. But the dog's dead now. Oh, wow. Okay. All right. That's a touchy topic.

39:04It's a little bit sensitive. Touchy topic. But even, you know, place two, three, four, five, not to compare because we know we despair when we compare. But you came in six. Yeah. So where were you in terms of your thought with regard to how big and bright your career would be at the end of the series? Well, so what's funny is we had the semifinal and I sang We Had to Take Our Clothes Off by Drain Stewart. I did a sort of a acoustic version, ballad version, as I would later discover is my super talent of taking a fun song and making it depressing. I did a version of that and I won my semi-final.

39:46So in some ways I was given a false sense of security, I guess, into thinking that maybe I could win this. You know, Simon's there, he's saying, you know, I think you've got this in the bag. I had people saying to me that they'd been to the bookies and put money on me winning. Wow. I was the favourite to win in the newspapers and in the media. And I'd started to believe it a little bit. And it came to the final. There was a lot of pressure. I was backstage. And I think, again, it was the same feeling as the audition. It was the reality of the fact that this was a final where there was a lot of expectation on me.

40:30different from the audition in that sense, but the fear and the panic and the worry was all exactly the same. And I remember going up to my position and I was thinking, I don't know if I remember the lyrics in the right order and I was starting to panic and then there's a scream behind me and my mum's in the background saying, you know, I know he's going to move away and I'm going to miss him. And she starts crying and I'm like, oh, I just can't do this. See all my family in the front row wearing vote for Callum t-shirts. It was a lot. It was a lot. And I came in, I sang Diamonds by Rihanna and I just came in wrong.

41:10I knew as soon as I started singing that there was something off. And I got to a certain part in the verse and I'd mess my words and, you know, now I'd consider myself a professional. okay i tried to okay so now i would if i messed up you wouldn't know but back then i didn't know anything okay and so i the instant disappointment of just being like i put my head down and i coughed and there was a gap and it's so when i watch it back it's it hurts me because it's so obvious that there's a mistake and i think from that second you know within it within a half a second it was like give it all you've got now that's all that's all you can do give it everything because i thought i can't stop i can't ask to start again yes give it everything and i sang that last half of the song like my life depended on it and i remember finishing and i was so disappointed and i looked to simon and he was the only judge not stood up and i was broken i was absolutely shattered i just thought the guy who's backed me is disappointed yeah and that killed me paul i came off stage out and deck came over i was so disappointed and the judges were so lovely they were like you're a human and this is what everybody at home is going to see you made a mistake you carried on you picked yourself up you know you're not autonomous you're not a robot you know and all the judges had given me a really good critique and then sam was like it was you know you messed up I just heard people see the back half of that performance rather than the front.

42:49And I knew I'd lost it. I knew people at home would be like, oh, that's a shame. And they were right. It was a shame. It had been so much hype, so much riding on that performance, and I messed it up. You messed it up. Do you feel like that impacted the beginning piece of your career? Yeah. It did? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Obviously, they announced that I was sixth. I came off stage and I tried to see Simon and he'd gone to his dressing room. And I think, if I'm honest to myself, I think Simon was disappointed. I think he, you know, he'd backed me and he'd believed in me. And I think he potentially felt like I'd maybe showed him up a little bit, is how I felt about it.

43:36And so he went upstairs. Rumour has it that there was a contract on the table waiting for me that got ripped up. Wow. I don't know if that's true or not, but that was the rumour. And I brought it down. And luckily, the show had an on-hand psychiatrist because you get put in this bubble of the TV show and feeling really important and media and all this kind of stuff. And then it's done. And it's done. And so they had to have somebody on hand to be able to deal with that. When you say you broke down, how did you break down? Oh, my. I was in tears, Paul. I was just so disappointed in myself. And I felt like I'd let myself down.

44:20I felt like I'd let Simon down, my family. Wow. And so I broke down and the psychiatrist took me in a room. And she was like, please, have a cry. Like, let it out. Because there's a lot of emotions. There's a lot going on. There was a lot of pressure. she was like but please know that you did a phenomenal job and please be proud of yourself and so i came around um and we had the wrap party and i got to spend some time with my mom and that was really important for me okay um i did a little video to to my fan base saying you know i'm sorry i messed it up and you didn't deserve that and um and then and then you know we we had a drink and we sort of put that to bed and it was the next morning that I was just full of anxiety, full of anxiety.

45:05All the researchers disappeared, you know, I was texting the researchers, oh, is there any press that I could do? You know, I'd love to be able to explain what happened, no replies, you know, didn't have any links to Simon and this contract that had been ripped up supposedly, so I thought was the end. So I was on my way up from London back up to Hull, just sobbing my heart out, thinking I'm going to go back to human resources. I'm going to have to ask Broome Forth to let me back. Very, very realistically thought that that was the end. Goodness. And it was awful. It's the worst three and a half hour journey I've ever done.

45:43It does. How do you then go from that place of now the lowest point in your career, right? How do you go from there to then a record deal? so i went back up north and the only person who i still had links with was the music lawyer you know as as contestants we uh were pitched by two law firms to represent us uh to represent our own interests as well as the show okay so we um elected a lady called talia shelson okay who's been my lawyer since i absolutely love her um and she she she stood by me she was like i'm i believe in you i'm gonna stick by your side i'm gonna help you she brought me to london i'd gone up to hall sort of i'd i thought about maybe going back into work and i just thought i just don't know if i can face it and luckily talia had gotten me a agent who'd started getting me some live work from the from the show.

46:46And so my very first performance was for British Airways. Really? And I'd done a little tiny, they had like a little, they were unveiling a new plane or something and they had me in the hangar to sing a couple of songs. And they paid me two and a half grand. Okay. And I was making that a month, maybe less than that. Oh, well, okay. Human Resources. So as soon as I got that, I was like, I'm gone, I'm gone. Even if this is the only gig I get, that's a month off of work so I just said to work I again sensible I said could I have a career break could I pause my position at HR and they allowed things like that for you know going traveling or university and I think this was such a unique situation that they said yeah well we're going to put your position on hold come back in 12 months if you need to and I realistically had that in mind and what's funny is fast forward 12 months later i had a record deal dan someren was number one in 24 countries around the world and they wrote to me saying so we're expecting you back from work on monday morning honestly paul that was one of the i've still got that letter today um but yeah it was yeah it's yeah it's it's surreal thinking back to that but i started to receive a couple more offers and i'd done a festival and and so i started thinking okay maybe all is not lost all right and i'd found uh an email from my now manager luke williams who had said hi scott i love i love your uh i love your uh rendition of dance on my own i've seen it on youtube i'd love to work with you uh is this are you currently managed and that i'd had that email before the show oh really but i didn't see it and then i went on the show and then i couldn't accept it so interesting so dance with my own you had released that on youtube prior to yeah so i'd i'd yeah okay so i'd sang this in the star search competition i'd started using that as almost like my little secret secret weapon okay and then i'd released my own sort of little music video on on on youtube all had to come down obviously when the audition went on and you know whatever else but i remember i it's funny the other day somebody was talking to me about uh Dan So My Own being a billion stream song on Spotify.

49:01And I'd said, I remember very vividly when I put my YouTube video up of Dan So My Own and I got my first thousand views. Paul, when I say I was popping champagne, I was celebrating hard. I can imagine. And it was like, my God, a thousand people have seen my... And now I'm starting with a billion streams. It's hard to comprehend. Oh my gosh. I mean, yeah, the streams that you have, the views it's just it's it's it's almost unreal it's it's hard to comprehend it I'm I'm extremely proud I mean I'm the numbers are ridiculous the numbers are ridiculous I mean like multi-platinum stuff it's just like oh it's and also all over the world like I was talking about this with the researchers is I see that all over the world you know people know you they know your music but if If you're thinking about just with the first couple of albums, obviously you have an album coming up.

49:57Yes. Right? Very excited about that. Right, which is big. But when you think of the career thus far, what are the highs and what are the lows? Ooh. One of the biggest highs for me was when I signed my first record deal. And I think the reason why it was really special was I flew mum over with me and I flew my dad in. And so they were there to witness me putting ink to paper in Capitol Records in LA, iconic building. It was one of the most amazing feelings. Although there was a lot of emotion and there was a lot of like, does he even deserve to be here? The right thing to do was for me to have my mom and dad there.

50:38And so I saw my record deal and it was amazing. I stood there arm and arm with my mom and my dad first time in, well, in fact, my entire life, having them both there. You know, the Beatles, the Beach Boys, katie perry sam smith you know incredible artists um that i was i had the opportunity to to sit alongside yes um huge moment for me signing that deal you know you talk about how iconic the the building itself oh i'm real everyone knows like this is there this is capital restaurant i mean there's nat king call's piano in there i got i got the opportunity to sing into frank snatcher's microphone for god's sake like it's just it was it i knew as soon as capital were interested in signing me that that was what I wanted to do.

51:22I'd been asked by Interscope, Warner. I'd been asked by almost everybody, Disney Records. I think the hype was so unreal on my version of Dan Samarion. It was charting across the world that I think, obviously, everybody wanted to be a part of that. But with Capital, I did feel a genuine artist relationship. I genuinely felt like they wanted to build a career with me. Yes. And they have. I'm still with Capital Records now. So it was, it was a huge high moment. I think a low moment was probably releasing the next single. We released a single called Rhythm Inside. Okay. It's a bit of a bizarre song.

52:04I love it, but it's not something that I ever thought I would release as a single. I think at the time we were chasing a tempo record. Okay. We wanted to sort of step into that territory. It was important for radio and all those things. And we put rhythm inside down as a single and it just didn't go. Just didn't go. And I was devastated. I'd gone from all of that upward success to the first part of rejection that I felt in the industry. And that was hard. That was hard. Because I think I'd set myself up for expecting success. Sort of a bit of a shortcomings on my behalf, But I think I'd gone from no confidence and that lack of worth, like I explained in my personal life, to suddenly having this purpose and having admiration from people across the world.

53:00I couldn't help but believe in myself. Sure. Do you think you reached a point where you were overly confident? Probably. Probably, not necessarily myself, but from the label and from management, I'd been sold that I was going to be a big hit. And that was a crushing reality. And I look back now on my 10-year career and I wouldn't change anything. I feel like we're products of who were made by the things that we've been through, good and bad. And I think having that rejection and that failure has set me up to be able to deal with that. And in this industry, it's relentlessly up and down. I guess in all industries, there is that up and down.

53:46But in the music industry particularly, those ups and downs are drastic. Are drastic. And also, you know, we recently had Estelle. Oh my God, amazing. Yeah, amazing, amazing voice. And she described the music industry in particular as a death by a thousand cuts. Oh my God, yeah. that's a beautiful way to put it you'll write something that you've cried your eyes out to and the label will go it's just not your best work and that rejection is awful and you know you give it to radio and they go this isn't what we want to play it's rejection time and time and time and time again you play a new song to your fans and it doesn't get the reaction that you were hoping for it's constant feelings of rejection and failures but you don't I always think Ed Sheeran actually said this to me last year you learn nothing from success everything you learn is in failure and he's a hundred percent right it's so easy to get caught up in the rejection of it it's easy to to look at things and go oh my god i'm not i'm never gonna have another moment like that you know for me dance on my own as as proud of i as i was of it it was important for me to be able to to to equal that with my own music yes and so you know rhythm inside was a single we put out and then i think another single called what i miss most that we'd done with the max martin crew and that everybody believed you know because it was max martin sort of approved that it would do so well and i just think that people around the world wasn't expecting me to do tempo they're expecting me to make them cry yeah because you know that's the most prevalent comment that i see on your video is how the song made the person feel emotionally yeah but in particular it's uh introspective or sad or you or love, but you know, it's tears.

55:29Yeah, yeah, yeah. You make them cry. I make them cry, and I'm darn good at it. You are damn good at making people cry. Getting people depressed. I used to cover songs by Bublé and Sinatra and Robbie Williams, and maybe I thought I could be a bit of a crooner. You know, then Ed Sheeran and Paolo Nottini and James Bay and all of these sort of contemporary guitar-playing artists that were in the charts. but my musical influences come from my mum and that was, you know, we'd sit in the car listening to Whitney Houston and Celine Dion and Tina Turner, you know, those big, powerful female voices that just soared, you know, the vocals would just take you on a journey and I knew that deep down in my heart, even though I tried to, you know, squash my mum's music taste down because I didn't think it was cool and I used to listen to Backstreet Boys and, you know, Britney Spears and NSYNC And, you know, I think in my mind I wanted to be a pop artist.

56:29It was the ballast stuff that I just yearned for. The ballast, yeah. You talked about how you would stand behind the mic stand, right? And you were able to break free. Is that how you were able to break free? Yeah. I think tapping into what I knew was the biggest thing for me. I guess when you get signed, you know, there's a lot of expectation and, you know, you're wanting to be a pop star and the label kind of put you on these TV shows where you're wearing amazing costumes and you're performing your songs. And I think there's a need to want to make you, to market you, right? As any business would with product.

57:06You want to make it shiny and beautiful and you want people to see it far and wide and it'd be popular. And I think that's harder to do with sad songs. Singing something that felt true to me was what gave me the confidence. and I think we'd recorded You Were The Reason. You Were The Reason was kind of one that me and my manager really believed in, but the label were like, we need tempo, we need to break you out as a pop artist. And so that was the first time I ever felt confident enough to challenge. I'd been signed by this label, how could I dare stand up to them and say what I think I should be doing?

57:43But that was the first time I thought, I do really believe in this song. and I really want you to believe in it with me. And they were like, okay. Okay, they allowed you. Okay, if you really believe in it that much, we'll put it out. What was it specifically about You Were the Reason that gave you the confidence to push back for the first time? I think I felt about You Were the Reason the same way that I felt about my version of Dancing On My Own. I'd heard this sort of piano rendition that somebody played just like a piano accompaniment by this gent on YouTube. And I sang on top of that. Okay.

58:22And when I sang that version, a huge fan of Robin, huge fan of the original, I had the opportunity with a piano version of it to give the song a new soundscape and for me to be creative rather than, you know, when I was singing, fly me to the moon when it's all swing and you've got the kind of, you have to sing it in a certain style and I would end up sounding like Sinatra. And so I remember recording it and just thinking, there's something really special in this. And I played it to my mom and she'd cry and I played it to my sister and she'd cry. And then I started using that as my superpower.

58:58When we recorded You Were The Reason, I felt exactly the same way. I love all of those influences. You were talking about Celine Dion to NSYNC. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's a range. It's very, yeah, it's very diverse. Oh my gosh. This is a full range. I hope you won't mind that we're taking a quick break from this conversation to talk about my show sponsor, Shopify. So many of you who listen to this show every week also run your own small businesses or side hustles. And we all know that these days, having a business without a website is almost impossible. But getting an online store up and running isn't always an easy or quick task.

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1:01:10So forget about planning the perfect date and just pick the right person to go on it with. It starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today. Now, you're the reason also, because I feel like now I'm a proficient Callum Scott. Like I've got all everything right with you or the reason to is the lyrics. Yeah. Did you write You Were The Reason? Helped. You helped, right. Yeah, there's an amazing producer I have now brought in as an exec on my upcoming album. He's called John Maguire. Okay. Incredible. He's the Bernie Taupin to my Elton John and another amazing songwriter that I've worked with called Corey Sanders.

1:01:56Okay. And so it was the three of us. You Were the Reason was more or less there when I got involved, but they needed something to finish it. And so that was where I was able to step in and sort of have a hand in that. And it also changed from it being about anxiety to it being about love. I mean, shocker. I stepped upon it and said about love. Of course. Of course it was. But it was special to me for a couple of different reasons. You know, again, it brought me back to what I love but having a hand in writing of that and knowing that it was special sort of give me a new confidence yes because it was even for me even if i put it out and it didn't do well it was me sort of creating a statement of this is the kind of music that i want to put out yeah this is what i want to be known for yes and even you know the even i say beyond the style right you think about you are the reason it's about love yeah okay it's about romantic love yes it is all right about romantic love with whom well at the at the time i was desperately single so for me it was almost like uh trying to bring it into reality almost a manifestation of just being like i want to sing this song to somebody and for them to feel the same way about me as well and i have i've had a rough time with relationships i've had a rough time with romance considering I write romantic music.

1:03:26Yeah, I've had a bit of a rough time. I suppose, you know, it points to a lot of stuff that, you know, growing up, I had a lot of internalized homophobia because I sort of was abandoned by my friends when I came out as being gay. Can we even jump into that? Yeah. Because, so we're back in the hull. Yeah. Okay. and I picture the way that you've described it is is it is I mean um you know the boys are boys the lads yes they're not boys they're lads yeah yeah right uh and you were you were a lad I was yeah I mean yeah I I I was a skateboarder I wasn't afraid to fall and injure myself and you know I was I was one of the boys it was all of us was you know there was no girls in our in our group at all So it was all just lads that used to build tree swings and, you know, and go out into the field and build dens and skateboard and BMX and stuff.

1:04:28It was all very sort of laddy in that way. You know, back then, I mean, I was 13, 14 years old. I wasn't even looking in that direction. I wasn't even thinking about girls or sex or anything like that. It was very much like I'm with my boys. Innocently, I guess. and it was only when my mates started getting girls in our group and part of our group that was a bit like you know like oh girls suck like i just want to skate and they're taking attention away from us and and and then you know then it would be like oh well surfy's got a friend that thinks that you're good looking and why don't you get with her and then then it was questions and it was like why do you not want to have a girlfriend and i was like i'm a skateboarder i'm fine there's like yeah but like you're just going to be the only one that done and it's weird and and i think that sort of questioning had gone deeper than i had thought it would okay and you know i'd go home and i'd i'd think about all the time and it come to a point where i wasn't eating properly i wasn't sleeping properly and i was getting ill with it you know i was questioning myself at a young age about why I was different, you know?

1:05:40So you felt different. How? I just felt like I, all of a sudden, didn't fit in. Didn't feel like I belonged all of a sudden. All I wanted to do was feel part of something. So then as soon as there was the questions about, you know, why I didn't want this, why I didn't want that, I felt segregated. And immediately all that fear and all that anxiety and worry about self-worth all came back. There had come a point where I was with one of my friends sat up on this half pipe and was just talking. And it came up again. And I was just so down and fed up of the questioning. When he asked me, I was like, I don't know if I'm interested in girls.

1:06:20And he was like, what, are you trying to tell me you're gay? And in that split second, I felt like my world was either going to change drastically or I would hide it and I would take that darkness and I would live it alone. So I made the decision to say, maybe. And he was like, all right. And then he skated away and he told all the other boys and then we all went home. And then the next day, nobody came to call for me. Nobody came to walk me to school. And I went up to school and none of them wanted to talk to me at lunch. and you know it that was my whole my whole life was my friendship group at that point so for me that my life was ruined from something i didn't even really understand um and that that was that was horrible that was probably one of the lowest probably one of the lowest times in my life i'd say personally um just feeling like all that rejection all of those doubts about self-worth just came straight back to say if there was almost proof that i don't deserve love that i'm not enough that you know all the things that i was trying to tell myself i wasn't you know was that was for me was clear proof that you know i wasn't worth it um who do you or who did you go to in in that time so to have gone from a fun loving you know big energy with the guys to then, you know, be the polar opposite of that.

1:08:03A couple of people had started to notice and one particular guy had come up to me and he'd said like, I've just noticed that you're like on your own a lot more and stuff like that. He's like, everything cool? And I was like, yeah, obviously didn't want to say anything to anybody else for fear that that might happen again. And he was like, do you mind me asking you a personal question? I was like, yeah. He was like, are you gay? So I was like, no, no, no. I might buy probably or something. He's like, I'm gay. and I was like oh and for a second I was like oh I okay I can relate now I feel like I'm part of something again right and he I mean we we were best friends for a long time and after Britain's Got Talent we we drifted which was sad but uh he saved me I I'd say he saved me from myself he saved me from the darkness that I was feeling because I had somebody who I could relate to he was unforgivingly himself he was unapologetically himself and and people knew that he was gay and he was like I don't care and that confidence I was like it was like looking at my sister again it's like somebody who is just confident enough to be able to show their heart and soul to people and to just be like I don't give a fuck right right but you were at that time though you had still not publicly stating and I think that internally you were questioning yourself yeah yeah so you thought maybe I'm bisexual yeah I'm not sure yeah right so how do you begin to then truly identify sexuality you know you as kids like you'd see FHM magazine or you'd see you know the magazines that you know my mate's dad would have right and you'd look through and you'd see stuff and it'd be like I wouldn't feel any way about it.

1:09:55And so then you start thinking, okay, well, maybe I am gay then. And then, you know, I'd start to explore that. And I found quickly that I was more attracted to men than women. Still, I'm attracted to women, but just not as much. And I think, you know, I still wasn't confident in my sexuality. And in fact, because of the loss I'd had with my friends, I resented that part of myself. and had done for a long, long time. I think I would say in the last, I'd say five years, have just gone full 180 on it. And I'm like, I love who I am. But that's only in the last five years. Oh, yeah. So in your teens, in your 20s, so I would imagine that friendship group that you had, they never came back.

1:10:43No, no. And I look on it now and I go, I don't blame them. when we're young sometimes what you don't understand can scare you and I don't I don't you know I don't feel anything towards that I don't hate them I'm not sort of like I said earlier I wouldn't change it because I am who I am because of that experience and I have the compassion and the love and the the need to want to help other people through their situations because of what I've experienced so I wouldn't change it and so in that way I don't resent them and you know there's we've seen each other out since and it's fine it's fine um but there was a lot of hate a lot of internalized hate for a long long time and she i always used to tell people if i could almost like a matrix red and a blue pill if i could take a pill and get rid of being gay i'd do it instantly now i'd back them out of your hand right even human resources you were you were still still sort of in the closet war i still felt uneasy about and i still used being bi as a cushion because it made me feel like oh i like women as well yeah i definitely like women as well it gave me almost like a a norm at the time i felt like um so that for me felt like an easier to digest statement of being like i'm bi and personally speaking and you know so i i got a girlfriend Did you?

1:12:13I was with her for a long time, up until prom. And then, understandably, on prom, she wanted to lose her virginity to me. And I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do that to her. I couldn't even entertain the idea of it because I loved the girl. And we were a child. We grew up together and went through school together. And I'd centered my friendship around her. and, you know, me, Dan and her and, you know, other people created a friendship group. So it was very much an integral thing for me to have her and to have that friendship group. But I couldn't lie to her like that. I'd been lying to her for a while anyway.

1:12:58So what did you tell her? We had a conversation and I told her the situation and she was so upset. And I get it. Like she immediately felt like she was not worth it and that I didn't, you know, love her. And she took it personally. And I totally understand. And it was wrong of me to lie to her, you know, and to pretend that I was straight when I obviously wasn't. So she took it hard. But, you know, we were great friends. So we were able to get through it. um and it meant a lot to me to get through with her um and she was she was beautifully sort of graceful in the way that she she sort of she didn't make a big deal out of it she didn't tell everybody you know she was just like we're broken up and i've got so much respect for her yeah because i can imagine it's a it's a small town yeah you know it's like 250 000 people it's not yeah yeah it's not a big it's not a big city you know but but you but you still kept that to yourself you still went under the quote-unquote cushion of of i'm bi yeah yeah so how does this then impact you on britain's got talent good question when you're gay if you're not comfortable with it you you feel that you have to come out again and again and again for somebody like myself um you know people would make assumptions that i was straight um and i would have to say like our actually no i'm bi and whatever and i use that excuse a lot or i would i would do this thing where my media trainer thinks that it's perfect that i did this but i would answer a question without answering it so you would say to me oh have you got a bed and i'd be like oh you know i'm far too busy i've got all this stuff going on and the question about the girlfriend is over there and we're talking about like work and other things exactly so i used to be able to dodge quite a lot of questions.

1:15:02When it came to Britain's Got Talent, oh my God, I remember this so vividly. I haven't thought about this in a long time, Paul. There was a Britain's Got More Talent segment that I did with Stephen Mulhern. And he came over and he said, right, we've got Callum's Got Golden Buzzer here, Sam's Golden Buzzer, we're going to play a quick game. I was like, all right, yeah, okay. He's like, you're going to describe your perfect girlfriend to me and I'm going to draw her. Wow. On cameras. Oh my goodness. So I was like, fuck, I'm going to have to just go with it. Because by then, the nation's watching me.

1:15:36I'm already in the closet. I was like, I can't, I can't, on TV, that are actually, are like guys. So we, it was so painful because he was like, I think there was a video of it somewhere. He's like, oh, tall or short? And I'm like, tall, no. It's like blonde or brunette? I'm like, brunette? and it's like you know we started going through these traits and i and i thought i i felt like a fraud and he showed me the thing and he said does this look like your girlfriend and i was like uh i said you know a little bit and he's like what's her name and i was like oh i'm not saying it out loud and he was like whisper it to me and i was like oh it's cassandra and he goes cassandra to the cameras she was devastated when she saw that because she's by that time we'd broken up and I felt like I'd used her as a way of me disguising myself yes and I had a lot of making up to do with her she she'd lost a lot of confidence in me and rightly so that wasn't nice to do that even though nobody else knew she and I knew and that was that was enough so that that it was it was awful and then news publications would run stories and the media was asking a lot about my you know it's a lot of tabloid press it was like you know asking about relationships and stuff like that and uh i remember going into virgin who look after me in the uk and broke down i was like i just don't know if i want to talk about my sexuality you know and yeah everybody's asking right and i sat down and uh her name is Janet she was lovely she sat with me and we had a little cry and she just gave me the confidence she was like we will do whatever you want to do however you feel comfortable we could go to a gay publication and we could give them an exclusive but we make it very much about the music and we talk about how amazing your career is and we kind of weave into there about the sexuality or we don't talk about it at all it's up to you So we chose to do a piece with Attitude magazine.

1:17:53Okay. And the piece was so well written that it kind of went under the radar. Interesting. Interesting. So you're still not out? By then, I'm like, fuck, I'm going to have to do it again. Yeah. It was not until I'd written a song with Toby Gad called No Matter What. And the session itself, it was in LA. so he's worked with i mean he's all of me with john legend and you know big big big big writer so i was obviously cacking my pants i'm like this is a big like writer like what am i gonna do so he uh he sat with me and and he played some chords and he was like are you feeling anything and i was like a little bit and he was like i'm just gonna leave these chords playing i'm gonna go off and do something and i'll come back and in that time i felt so like magnified the the the responsibility on me to write in that moment was horrendous i usually write with two people three people so to do it alone was was traumatizing i mean i text my air and i was like i need to go this is awful i'm in the room by myself toby's left i was like what do i do he's like keep just try it's like give me 15 minutes 15 20 minutes and if in 20 minutes you still feel comfortable we'll pull you out so you've got to do something so i sat there and i sat noodling around the idea of of my coming out story about how you know i'd come out to my friends and it wasn't the best but i'd come out to my mom and she said she loved me no matter what um and so i'd started right into that and it was very honest and it was the first time i'd ever written that that level of uh of of complete honesty and transparency um but it felt good to think about it and to start writing about it and toby came in and we started to finesse the idea and and i wrote the song called no matter what and it was as soon as i wrote that although there was some fear about releasing it and some worry about what it would do, I feel like that gave me a complete suit of armour.

1:20:00It was like the Holy Grail for me because it enabled me to be truly myself without any judgment on myself, without any hatred on myself. And I knew more than that, that it wasn't just my story. It would be millions of people around the world. And honestly, Paul, the messages I still get of just people being like, this saved my life this is the song that i sent to my mom and helped me come out this is the song i sent to my daughter and now we have an amazing relationship i get messages every day about no matter what and by far today is is is the song i'm most proud of wow wow you know thank thank you for that um you you mentioned in that that uh you came out to your mother and she said of course yeah i knew moms would say she she you know she goes i had an inkling of course i did you know it was it was it was lovely i mean she had a little bit of a she had a little bit of a moment because she at that point she was like i really want to be a grandma i was like that can still happen yes uh she was worried that she wouldn't be able to be the grandma from for my kids in the way that my grandma was for me in every other sense of the way she was she's like i couldn't care less yeah she was like i love you no matter what like for the rest of time so she was like you know nothing you could say i'd do would ever stop me loving you so that was a big deal for me just a quick one before we get into the next section callum speaks about his mental health and having suicidal ideations if this is a tough topic for you please take care while watching we've also added links to support charities in the episode description you know one thing that i did not know until we had uh jojo siwa as a as a guest 75 percent of lgbtq plus community felt the need to hide their identity 75 yeah that's It really hit me, you know, thinking about that.

1:22:08And as a result of hiding identity, there becomes just this avalanche of other issues. And it seems like you've experienced many other issues, not just as a result of hiding identity, but just as a result of the abandonment that you talked about earlier, the stress, et cetera. So what are some of those other challenges that you've had in your life it was compounding issues of abandonment self-worth low self-worth low self-esteem no confidence and i'd gotten so far into my 20s and i started drinking a lot and and and it and it come to a point where i just it was getting quite dark for these compounding issues were starting to really take control and i'd started to develop a uh what i later found out was body dysmorphia so i would i found myself inspecting my body got into a point where i would get my bedside lamp and i would i would shine it on my skin and on my body and if i you know i found something i didn't like an artifact or a freckle or a mole or whatever it was I would write it down in this notepad that I kept by my bed so I came to a point where I would go to bed and I would like torture myself with this ritual of reading all these things that I hated about myself and I wasn't fair I didn't write anything I liked everything was just I couldn't stand myself yeah I'd get to a point where I would be stood in the mirror and I would be going you ugly disgusting nobody loves you you know you're gay you've lost all your friends you'll never have a relationship and I I was so unkind to myself and I'd gotten to a point where because I was drinking and because I'd not dealt with other emotions that was going on and I'm a sensitive boy as it is anyway it just gotten very very dark and there came a point where I would I would just think to myself I can't I cannot see this getting any better and so there there was a couple of times I would I would just leave the house and I would go off and I would almost not know where I'd be going I would just go and there was one time that I left and I had found myself on a bridge and I remember kind of looking over the other edge and just contemplating everything and being like what's the point what's the point I hate myself I hate who I am I hate that I'm gay I hate that I've lost all my friends I hate that my dad isn't here and I was hating on myself so much that I looked over the other edge and had almost made a promise that I was going to jump and having sort of in that moment having looking over the other the first person that came into my mind was my mum and I just thought if I throw myself over this bridge now what will that do to her she would she'd never forgive herself and she'd be she'd be she'd she'd lose her son you know so for me it was a non-negotiable I was like I can't do that can't do that to her she's everything to me and and so I sort of came back and I went home and I didn't tell her and the next day I got up to go to work and I was sat in my car and I just broke down into tears and I just thought I can't deal with this can't deal with it on my own and so I called my doctor's surgery and I said um I'm so scared that if I don't see somebody I'm gonna do something stupid and uh and they got me in that week and I went to go and see a an NHS counsellor and I told my mum I had to tell my mum um and she came with me and she held my hand through the first session and it was lovely that she was there for me and she was devastated you know because she'd just she just said her son was gonna try and kill himself so it was it was it was a lot um but you know we we sat and we talked through the whole thing and you know we we came away from it a little bit lighter and then we went again and you know i would start to explain about my body dysmorphia and stuff like that and mama would be like don't be so stupid you look beautiful like and the counselor would be saying like i know that you're doing a lovely thing but by saying don't be stupid you're kind of making him feel worse in some ways so then we made the decision for mum to not be part of the sessions and from that point onwards I grew a lot I was able to talk about my dad I was able to talk about my sexuality um and I think when I'd started to talk about that stuff I'd just noticed that when I was going home I wasn't reaching for that notepad as much and when I was writing things down I wasn't writing as much and it became less and less of a tool and I just started to love myself a little bit more you know and not give myself so much of a hard time you know so it was it was a real turning point therapy has completely changed my life you know I've gone from wanting to kill myself to wanting to you know be a beacon of hope for people and you know wanting to be a light and actually whilst I was at human resources I started looking into um university courses of how to be a counselor oh well because i was so inspired and so so moved by what he was able to do for me i was like that's what i want to do for somebody else yes um and that that in some ways i found myself in that sort of a role yeah i was gonna say kel you you do this through your music yeah so with regard to suicidal thoughts i'll call it ideation because there's different levels and and And that's something that I didn't quite understand, is that there is the idea of suicide.

1:28:20There's then the plan of suicide. And then the greatest level is you have the idea, you have the plan, and then you have the intent. Right. So there's various stages. But what I didn't know was the disproportionate allocation, should I say, of reported suicidal thoughts within the LGBTQ plus community. Right. So in the UK, 44 % of LGBTQ people reported suicidal thoughts. Wow. 44%. That's compared to 26 % of heterosexual non-trans respondents. Wow. 13 % of LGBT plus aged 18 to 24 have attempted to take their own life in the past year. 13%. Jesus Christ. I mean, it's just the numbers are shocking.

1:29:18LGBTQ plus young people are more than four times as likely to attempt to take their life than their peers. Which is heartbreaking. You concern yourself so much with other people's opinions that you forget about sort of loving yourself. And so the statistics, as disgustingly shocking as they are, I can understand. Yeah. But I tell you what, you know, in terms of one thing that's also important to me is allyship. Yes. Right. And I constantly ask, like, what could be done? What could be done? What could be done? But it goes back to something that I have begun to have conversations with my boys about.

1:29:57because as I begin to understand if they're leaning into a particular sexuality, right, is at the end of the day, don't be the one in the group who walks away. Don't be that one. Right. You know, that's where it all begins. Yeah, yeah. And quite honestly, that's where it ends. Yeah. But also, it shows you the importance of having a group of peers that you love. A hundred percent. You know, and that who love you. Yeah. And on that note, on that note, I have another surprise for you. Oh, God. Are you ready for this? Yes. Are you sure? Are you ready? I mean. Callum, are you sure? I feel like this is your life.

1:30:39Please welcome. All right. Here we go. This is, you ready for this? Maybe. Okay, here it goes.

1:30:52Hello, my little spring chicken. It's your best here. and the special guest jacks i don't think anyone quite has a friendship like ours it has so many different levels to it um and you truly you truly truly inspire me every single day because of that you deserve all of your success and more we have made the most incredible memories together when i am with you i smile from ear to ear i form abs in my cheeks and it truly is the most fun but above of all else and the thing that I think is rare in a friendship that me and you most definitely have is that raw, authentic, honest, emotional connection.

1:31:37And I love you so much. Oh, my God. Thank you so much for that. I broke. Oh, God, I love that woman so much. she um she's she's incredible that's my best friend jess thank you for that that was lovely um she throughout my uh throughout throughout my sexuality issues throughout the issues with my dad throughout my career she's just been such a rock i think that this is almost a lesson that you could teach us all is that when you have a a friend a loved one who is is going through a storm going through a tough time.

1:32:19How do we support that friend? How do we do it? I think in a lot of these storms, what somebody wants is just that company, you know, just that reassurance. I think some people sometimes don't want to go through what they're going through. You talk about what they're going through. Some people don't want to sit down and explain how they're feeling. They just want that presence of somebody, that warmth of somebody. And I think with Jess, she has very openly talked about her diagnosis of FTD, frontal temporal dementia. She's been very public with it. She's got a blog. It was FTD and me because it was the story of her mum and the journey that she'd gone through with her mum.

1:33:03And then heartbreakingly, she got diagnosed with the same illness. And so now it's become her journey. and then she's just done an incredible thing with Greg, my other best friend, her husband of IVF and the chances of baby Jacks being born was so slim but they've removed that bad gene from that bloodline and now Jess's family forever going forward has that gene removed which is incredible, speaks volumes about Jess and Greg. But I think with me and Jess, the big thing for about about that is is just being there is enough sometimes yes yes riding that storm with them is is enough yes i'm i'm with you it's one of those where when we hold space for someone we don't have to attempt to resolve their issue or come up with a fix yeah it's just being present yeah you know with with them yeah talking about it you know sometimes helps you know sort of maybe trying to distract sometimes helps but i think that presence of being like, I am here for whatever you need me for.

1:34:10If you want to sit and you want to cry my shoulder for an hour and a half and talk about it. If you want to go to those break rooms where you can smash stuff. Yeah, whatever it is you want to do to help you get through it. I think we should give some spotlight to FTD. Yeah. Because I was not aware of it. Yeah. Although now through the research, I understand this is exactly what happened to Bruce Willis. Yeah, yeah. It was the same. So what, if you could describe, what is FTD? Jess will kill me if I don't get this right, but as I know it, and I'm not a specialist by any stretches, but it's called frontotemporal dementia.

1:34:47And it is a condition that it's almost an inevitability, which is in itself very cruel. Jess's mum had been diagnosed after multiple misdiagnoses of forgetfulness or age or you know there's certain behavioral things that she was displaying that the doctors were saying it's you know it's nothing turned out to be ftd and it's a it's a form of dementia um that's quite aggressive uh if i'm right it affects your um your behavior first and so jesse's mum had started to really change in the way that she'd gone from being a very chatty happy-go-lucky thriving member of the community to actually quite catty and and a little bit nasty and very reserved wouldn't go out and jess was like there's just more to this and she sort of forced her mum to to go to the doctors and they did some tests and they found that she had this this gene and so jess had started a a blog called ftd and me and she just detailed um sort of the the journey she'd been on with her mum and uh yeah it's it's rough i mean she goes through that blog and it's an incredible reading you just see the compassion of jess and you also see the real effects of what happens to somebody who's been diagnosed with ftd and who eventually will pass away with it.

1:36:21Jess then sort of got tested and she has the gene. Her brothers have been tested and they have the gene. So she's in a position now where FTD and me has become her journey. And it's cruel. And, you know, she's an absolute superstar. You know, she lives life to its fullest because she knows there's going to be a time when she forgets who we are and she starts to lose her memory and that's heartbreaking. And so, yeah, until it has to become real for us at the minute, it's off in the distance. It's off in the distance, yeah. But it's hard. It's really hard. Yeah, you know, I can't imagine. But out of respect for Jess and you, I'm going to read the blog.

1:37:06We definitely will. Here's some research on FTD. FTD is a less common type of dementia, around one in 30 cases of dementia in the UK. So that equates to roughly 31 ,000 people in the UK today living with FTD. Wow. Right. Significant number. Really significant. And we will. We'll definitely, and also in the description, we'll make sure that we add a link for that. Thank you very much. And thank you for sharing that because it's, you know, discussing mortality, you know, is such a challenging topic. Oh, my God, yeah. And as I get older, as my parents get older, as I see those loved ones in our family passing away, all of my grandparents have passed away at this point.

1:37:57And it's one of those where what I've realized is that we, at least I'm speaking for my families, we need to talk about this more. Yeah. We need to have these conversations more. There is a song on this new album, and it speaks to that fragility of life in quite literal terms. And it came from a conversation I had with my producer, John, and he has two little girls. And I said to him, I was thinking this the other day, I was like, isn't it so wacky that one day you're going to pick up Millie, and you're going to give her a kiss and a couple of things, and you're going to put her back down, and you'll never pick her up again?

1:38:39not through choice or anything, just the fact that that'll be the last time, you know? So I think, you know, when I wrote that with John, it was like a kind of, there's a real sentiment of, you know, really feeling fulfilled. Yes. You know, whether that's through love or through family or through career or opportunity. I just think, you know, that song speaks to that. So, yeah, I totally agree. Yes. And also, I think it allows us to have one more chance at it. I'll tell you what I mean is this happened to me, Callum, yesterday. Okay. All right. Yesterday, I'm in the park with both of my boys. Okay.

1:39:17Okay. I have an 11-year-old and I have a 14-year-old. Right. Now, my 14-year-old is almost my height. What? Right. He's a tall one. So he comes over and he says, Dad, can I get on your back, do a back ride? I was like, you're too big, man. What are you talking about? I should be riding on you. What are you talking about? This is absurd. This is crazy. And then I walk away and I say, no, no, we're not doing it. Get back home. I say, you know what? I should have put that boy on my back. Yeah. You know? And it was one of those where, and I still haven't done it. Actually, I think I'm going to do it tonight now.

1:39:53Just worry about your knees. Just going to show you Bryce. But the reason why I thought about it in the evening is I thought, you know what? I wonder if this is the last back ride. Yeah. because I can't remember the last time I did pick him up. So I want that experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're so right. The new album actually is kind of a reflection of that. It's called Avanois. And it sort of speaks to, I was reading a book by an author called John Koenig who's written this book called The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. Oh, wow. And it's this thing where he's been able to describe something or a feeling with a word that we haven't yet created.

1:40:35and it was when I was like having a bit of a doom scroll through Instagram I was probably sat on the toilet at the time Paul uh and I was having a look through and I saw it and I was like oh that's a word I've never seen before and I started reading into it and and he says about how we move through life as a rower moves uh moving forward but facing backwards and it's a younger version of us that steers the boat but we don't know what's coming and I instantly had in my mind you know how that looks and how that looks to me and and he sort of talks about avanoir being the desire to be able to to be able to look around and see your memories coming so this is the inspiration so this is the inspiration for the genius i know i know and it's like what what's what i think is so crazy about it is it when i was thinking of that concept i thought if i could turn around and see what was coming yes would i and i think you know there's a lot of reflection on the album and there's a lot of I've written about sorrow and I've written about regret and I've also written a song to my future baby, a song on the album.

1:41:43And there's a lot of looking at the polar opposites and not a lot of living in the now. And I think to myself, if I could see what was coming, I wouldn't be hopeful, I wouldn't be ambitious, I wouldn't ever have any surprise. And I think the twists and turns of life, for better or for worse, is what makes life... so fragile it makes it worth living it is it magical and it does sort of remind us to to live every moment absolutely absolutely i am going to give my son that back right yes please today yeah today that's the first thing that i'm gonna be like what you what are you doing okay yeah you know what i love there too is that you said you were doom scrolling on the toilet yeah because in my research i see that you you uh you've said this if you can maybe clarify this is that you have a pre you know where i'm going a pre-show ritual oh god how did we end up here i mean and now i'm talking about pre-stage poops um yes is this your ritual very real ritual are you and i i vowed that i would anytime i was asked if if i had any pre-stage rituals i would always be honest so in my transparency i'm for the benefit of anybody watching and listening yes i have this pre-stage poop that i have to have it's almost like habitual i don't even think about it anymore it just happens i just have to go there i think there's probably more to it than just needing to take a shit yeah for one of a better way it's definitely psychological yeah i think it's psychological i think it's alone time as well i think it's having some space away from the energy in the dressing room.

1:43:29It's a moment for me to just be alone and have my own thoughts. And the obvious as well. There was a moment when we were in Portugal and I was doing a festival and obviously the only on-site facilities was a port-a-loo. Okay. The port-a-loo was sort of sat backstage by the stage. And so I'm sat on the toilet having my pre-stage poo and the crowd had started to become a little bit impatient, so I started chanting my name. I'm sat there taking a dump with people going, I've never felt more encouraged in all of my life. My gosh. It took me back to when I was a little boy. That would probably make me nervous.

1:44:15Like, I can't go. I can't go. I've got shyness, but yeah. So you really do have this. It's interesting. It's a real thing. Yeah, I'd like to say that I have some sort of like, you know, I go around with some burning incense or I have that gargle, some honey and manuka and those things as well. But the pre-stage poo. Pre-stage poo. That's the pinnacle. I love it. I love it. All right. So I have two quick categories. Okay. All right. This one is super quick. This is just you are now booed up. Okay. And you are in love. Okay. Okay. Right. Yep. Okay. Okay. The second is you mentioned you want to be a father.

1:44:56Yeah. All right. Where's the desire to be a father? Where does that come from? Because we're living in a day and age where there is a decline in the percentage of people who are interested in having children. Oh, really? Yes. Yes. So you're in a space where you actually want to have a child. Yeah. Yeah. Why? I've always had a nature of wanting to look after and I think being a dad for me is is is sort of I think an extension of the safety that I want to create that I've had all my life through my mom my grandparents my sister I want to carry that on and become that safety for for somebody else and I think because I never had my dad present in my life you know I kind of want to fill that void in a way by becoming the dad that I would have wanted to have in my life you know so I think it's that I think it's it's it's that but there's never going to be the right time I think for me it's it's a tough one I feel like I could do it you know Pink you know famously brings her kids on tour and you know Adele and and and other people in the industry have been able to have kids and have that career as well so I think it's achievable but i just know that i would be head over heels if i had a little kid yeah i i know you would yeah i know you would all right so now final question for you okay you ready for this i might be okay so the final question is yeah you have had calum you've had some amazing conversations throughout your life when you think back to and i'm i mean my god i mean the amazing places that you perform for the king with ed sharon right i mean it's just it's it's it's it's It's mad.

1:46:46But when you think about the most memorable conversation, who was it with? What did you learn? Oh, my God. That is a great question. What I will say is that I had a conversation with myself. I'll explain what I mean. um when i had uh taken my dad for family counseling and we sat in a room it'd been the first time that i'd heard my dad say that he should have been there when i was younger there was a therapist there that when my dad had left the room she said look i want you to think about this your dad in this session has taken responsibility and taken accountability that he should have been there when you was two and throughout your life.

1:47:39And she said, there's going to be a moment when you get home. And she said, it will happen where two-year-old Callum will pop up and he will cry his eyes out because he's been heard, he's been listened to, he's been valued and it's what he needs. And when he comes up to have his moment, you tell him it was never your fault. and I went home and I was I'd been I'd been home for a couple of days and I was just on a doom scrolling again and I saw this video and it was this beautiful video of this little boy whose granddad had passed away and for Christmas he got this little teddy bear that was wearing one of his granddad's pocket chiefs or something and he pressed the hand and the teddy bear spoke to him and he said uh I love you son you know that and and the little boy starts crying and he's like oh i just miss you granddad so much and i was like what here it comes and i had this wave of emotion and when i told you i was sobbing it was you know your stomach is wrenching it's so hard because you're sobbing so hard and so i'm sat in my living room crying my eyes are going it was never your fault it was never your fault talking to two-year-old callum and i was sobbing my heart for about 45 minutes a good 45 minutes but I can't tell you the world of good that did to me it soothed the two-year-old in me that has been so desperate for that self-worth for that moment to just be told that it wasn't his fault you know I've carried that weight for such a long time and so I think that kind of reinforcement to yourself and you know talking to yourself I know it sounds a bit bizarre but positive reaffirmation is so powerful yes well said so as much as it's not with anybody it's with me um that's probably one of the most liberating feelings to date that i've ever had is just knowing that i am enough perfectly said calum scott i tell you what i've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation thank you so much it's been an emotional roller coaster for me I, I, I, you know what, what I find so should I say warm about you is that how you described Hull at the very beginning of our conversation is you use the term hidden gem.

1:50:04Yeah. You are a hidden gem. You were, you were, but you have chosen yourself and you are no longer hidden. and the world now sees this and the world now is to really it's to our benefit right that you are your full self but more than all of that you know what you've done is you've kept the promise to your grandmother focused on the music taking care of your sister and that is what i believe you should be most proud of oh man i am i'm proud of myself and i'm proud that i've done hair proud yeah yeah you should what are you doing to me it's the end of the conversation i'm crying ah i will guarantee you right now this conversation has changed lives i hope so guaranteed thank you very much yeah thank you thank you one absolute pleasure yeah that was It was beautiful.

1:51:06Thank you. That was beautiful. Okay. Now, I've been debating if I should say this or not, but I'm going to say it. One of my favorite conversations that we've had so far on We Need to Talk, it felt as if I was just lost in the story. And just for me, just even from an interviewer's perspective, I think that's the place where you want to be. Callum wasn't scripted. There must be some crazy truth serum that you've dropped in this. What is this, vodka? He has not done an interview like this ever, ever. He's 10 years into his professional music career. It wasn't until the JoJo Siwa interview that the stat around LGBTQ +, hiding identity at such high rates, I was not aware of that.

1:52:05What Callum has done is he has struggled with that exact point throughout the majority of his life. He said it wasn't until a few years ago where he's fully embraced himself in full detail. That stays with me. The reason why I think that particular point kind of hangs with me is because I was in that zone for a moment in my childhood. We lived in the city, in New York City. We moved to Long Island. And for us, for me, it was being the first black family in this neighborhood. And I felt completely ostracized by all of these kids. Right now, I was a bit more gangster than our guests. So I changed the situation later on in life.

1:52:55but I have felt that I have felt because of a characteristic I have been ostracized right uh as a child and it is just it's the worst it's the worst feeling ever uh and I think that I think allows me to almost increase my allyship and I think it's important for everyone to also consider that, you know, in their ally show.