The No.1 Communication Expert: Never Argue With a Narcissist! The One Word All Liars Use. This Mistake Leads to Divorce!

25:43Okay. But if you can just give a little bit of repeating back what they said, they're going to feel a lot more acknowledged. Or say, tell me more. What do you have? Let's put this back on. Let's lay it out in some rules. You want to be a better active listener. Number one, ask one question. Ask one question. Real easy. By that, I mean, once they've told you something, don't immediately go to solving it. Don't immediately go to having your two cents, having to have a response. Ask one question. It could be as simple as, what was your favorite part? Or what do you think about it? What's your opinion?

26:21What do you think the answer is? Any little bit of that question, they're going to have an answer for it. They're not going to claim up. They're going to continue to talk. That makes them feel heard and acknowledged. Big check mark. Number two, if you need to be a better active listener, aside from the little nonverbal cues we talked about, repeat the last little bit of their question. That's mirroring. That's going to make them feel like you heard them in some sense. And number three, if you can, and this is the most difficult, Paul, is empty out the idea of you having to spit something out right away.

26:52It takes a lot of discipline, but to actually listen without formulating a thought. And you can do that by your breath and adding some space before you start to respond to it. Because most of the time when you're talking, we're only thinking about how we're going to respond to it. Yes. That's why people interrupt. Yes. Yes. I love it. But now, once again, we've landed on the pause. Yeah. It's powerful. Which the pause is powerful. But I've seen this in television. You know, there was, you know, in TV, what often happens in a lot of the shows that I do is oftentimes people cry. and I'll never forget a producer once told me Paul don't step on their cry I can see that so you know people would start crying and I would feel terrible I'd say oh no yeah yeah you know I'd try to hug them and hold them and immediately start talking and the producer said no don't step on their their cry allow that emotion to sit with them to sit with them right I found even in a therapy context that's very powerful sometimes you need to have a conversation with the moment not with the person.

28:03Meaning that you need to acknowledge, appreciate, connect with the moment. It's just as powerful. There are times when I'm with my kids. I don't have to say anything, but I know I'm connecting in that moment with them just by sitting with them. And I know that they're learning or they're going through something or they're crying or they're upset. And there's times when you're talking to somebody and there's nothing you can physically do. Of course, because you have a wonderful heart, you want to hold their hands, You talk with them, step on that cry, when sometimes it's connecting to the moment, and that doesn't require any type of communication at all.

28:39And that's the beautiful thing about life. I can sit here in the room with you, and we could have nobody here and no cameras, and we could still connect to the moment and still feel like we went through something. So communication is beautiful in the way that it transcends verbal. I mean, I can, silence is the absence of sound. It's not the absence of communication. You can say a lot of things in silence. And so for people who have a hard time with that, it's communicating with the moment. That would be a much more positive shift into using pauses and acknowledging and observing the silence. I see it.

29:24Yeah. I see it. I see. This is so helpful for me. So helpful. You know, as you were telling that story, something hit me. I know another reason why you were so successful. But I'm sure you already know this. But this has hit me right now is your smile. Oh, thank you. So this is something that is a study that's going on in my mind with, and you tell me what your take is on this, especially with regard to communication, is I have, I've had the privilege of interviewing very successful people. Yeah. And what I've noticed is there's this commonality. Now, I'm specifically talking about, let me make sure I want to unveil this piece of the study.

30:12I'm going to say this is everyone, but disproportionately men. Okay. Is a predominant smile. Mm-hmm. Right. So predominantly. So in most, you know, over 50%, say, of our conversation, there's a smile. Right. What's your take on the smile and how important that is in communication? The smile, your smile, is your unique place card in conversation. Nobody can replicate your smile. It's yours. And when you have the conversation to just smile with them, they can hear it in your voice, even on the phone. That just uplifts the conversation. It makes you want to connect with that person more. There's that sense of warmth with them.

31:02It's that they're telling you, you are safe here with me. If you're somebody who doesn't smile or doesn't want to do that, then they tend to not think you're as friendly, you're as nice, you're as warm. And that can all be false, but that's the impression. So a smile is a huge part of how you communicate positive signals with somebody. If you want to attract more in your life, you have to be more of a light as much as you can. Okay. So for someone who maybe doesn't naturally smile, or, you know, I have a friend, for example, who had, you know, very crooked teeth growing up and would hide his smile.

31:45And he reached a point where he's an adult now. And I notice he doesn't smile because of how he conditioned himself throughout childhood. So if you feel like you're not the light or not as lit as you should be, then should you then perform that piece? No, you should always be genuine. I feel you need to be authentic to that. I don't think there should be a performative aspect of that. But if somebody didn't want to show their teeth, that's fine. I mean, you can definitely, there's been plenty of times where we can smile without showing our teeth. It's impossible to not show your teeth while you're talking.

32:23A lot of it is your eyes. So it's not so much in your lips, it's in your eyes. If people can feel happiness in your eyes, that's where they're, a lot of times, that's where they're looking. And I'm not saying you need to have constant eye contact. That's a lot more difficult. Sure. But for people who are having a difficulty with it, for example, with eye contact, one thing that I like to do is you could talk anywhere that you want. I could look all around. But as long as I end my sentence looking at you, you feel like there's been eye contact. You'll never even really notice that I'm not keeping eye contact the whole time.

32:55And if I'm looking at you the whole time, people might be a little freaked out by that. They're going, okay, this is, his eye contact's a little much. Let's not invite him back. You know, it's kind of, that's like that. Yeah, it's a stalker. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, weird, mad eyes. Yeah. And that's for eye contact. But a lot of the time you can even smile, what do they call it, smize, with your eyes. I don't want people to feel like if they're embarrassed of their teeth, they can't also exude warmth and positivity in their communication. They still can. That's powerful. I mean, that especially landing with the eye contact at the end.

33:37I've a number of friends and actually interviewed quite a number of people who are neurodivergent and have a challenge with eye contact. Sure. But being able to land at the end, that's powerful. It's easy. It's much easier. I mean, you've set the bar a whole lot lower. As long as you can just, in the last bit of your sentence, just look up. They'll naturally feel like they're going to say, oh, he's good. Good eye contact. Good eye contact, yeah. Something about the end of a sentence. Yeah. How do you feel about body language in helping with effective communication? Well, let's say you're on a first date.

34:19you want your body language to be as open as you can be. If you're somebody who's just like, oh no, it's really good to meet you, love to meet you. What does it say? It says everything that you're closed. You know this. Everything else says that you're open. I'm open to new things. I'm open to new conversation. I'm open to a new relationship. As long as the nonverbal matches the verbal, that shows more trust. It shows more security. There's not a warning sign. that's going on. So the nonverbal language, your body language is incredibly powerful. And it's the same thing with your tone. You can say the same thing, same words, but it all sounds different depending on your tone.

35:02We can say, okay, eight different ways if we wanted to, to express eight different emotions. Your tone is to me, the biggest driver of communication. Yes. And also, this is going to sound like I'm just, this is the Jefferson Gas Up show. No, no, no. But also something that you do, which is outstanding, I believe, in your communication, is your pace. So remember when Barack Obama was running for president and what stood out to me was his pace. And I started to look at pacing and I saw that in terms of, I think, words per minute. Someone correct me if I'm honest, but I think it was something along the lines of he was, he was at the lowest end of the scale.

35:43It's like 120 words per minute. And I noticed that that pacing, what it did is to me, I interpreted that as he's more confident in what he's saying. And I've noticed that your pacing is on the lower scale. And I believe every word you're saying. Great, because it's all alive. That's great. No. Yeah, that's exactly right. Pace, pace, tone, pace are huge. People don't pay enough attention to that. That all has to do, when you say pace, meaning how fast I spit out words. In Texas, we speak pretty slow. Yeah, that's just the way. In New York, speak very fast. Come on. One of the most nerve-wracking experiences I ever had was like a New York deli.

36:32And oh my gosh, if I didn't know exactly what I wanted, it was, what are you doing? Get out of here. Yes. Yeah. Yes. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. So pacing, incredibly important. Yeah, big time. And it's not that you have to speak slower all the time. That's not what I'm suggesting. It's when you need to have conversations with importance, if you want to sound really intentional, you go, I really want to feel like I'm somebody in this conversation. I have my feet firmly planted. Yes. Speak slower because you can't do anything with it. If we're talking really, really fast, things will get missed.

37:08I think about, and it's the same thing with your nervous system, like you, you've been around people that are always anxious and they talk anxiously. All of a sudden you feel anxious. If you're around people who are slow, like there's a reason why you like being at your grandmother's house. Things move slow. There's not a rush. It's just that sense of comfort. So we look, if there's one thing that the world needs more of, Paul, it's calm energy. Good, clean, calm energy. The kind of energy that just makes you feel like when you walk in, your burdens are lifted. When you can walk in and you feel like you can just be yourself.

37:49The person that when they hear you, they go, I want to follow that person. I want to listen to that person because you're not trying to push. You're not trying to shove. You just are. And that's the kind of person that people are naturally drawn to in communication. Yes. Yes. Now, you just mentioned something that I have to go back to because it's laying on my mind. Okay. Is when we're talking about body language, you mentioned that the issue is being incongruent in essence. Right. So you could say I'm open, but if your arms are crossed, you're signaling that you're not. Yeah. So when people are like, I'm listening.

38:22Right. You think they're listening? No. Where you're not. Yeah. So if my arms are crossed, my legs are like this, I'm like, I'm having a hard time. listening yeah yeah then that's i'm being congruent and that's that's that's fair play right exactly so then my question then is is can you use that in other elements of communication by language or should i say body language and the verbal to detect a lie so in essence yeah how do we spot a liar oh spotting a liar is i i yeah if you want to spot a liar first look at their body positioning that's again it's not 100 science it's communication there nothing is to it a lot of it is they shift so a lot of times in a deposition i might be asking somebody a question first thing they do is they shift meaning they're uncomfortable they haven't moved for the last six questions, but the one question I asked that I know is one that could be, they might try to shift on, is the one that they're going to naturally shift their body because they don't really want to answer the question that I'm asking.

39:31So I see this, let me put the frame by listening. This is in the realm of me as an attorney, trial attorney, asking questions of a witness, typically an adverse witness, meaning they're against me and we're in a lawsuit. I'm asking them questions in a deposition that are under oath. So any answer that they give me, I can use in a court of law. So it's still under oath, even though a jury is not present. How do I spot somebody who's lying? One typically is already have the evidence. Same thing in a relationship. You might already have the text. You might already have the video, the picture, the whatever.

40:04And you're now going to ask them something and you're going to see them shift. They will also begin to ask questions to your question in a, in a very casual way. I might ask them, you were, you were texting when you were driving and they might go, texting? You know, it was a simple question and using a very simple question. They've now tried to use a very simple question back as if like, yeah, texting the word I used, you know, what I'm talking about, is because they're trying to give themselves more time. That's one way you see it. Or one of the best ways I've seen, if you want to catch a liar, is to use silence.

40:50Again, we're going back to the power of the pause, Paul. When somebody says something that is a lie, you know it to be a lie. Liars cannot stand the silence because it tells them you're not taking the bait. Liars like fast talking. They like it. They like to argue a lot. They want to make a big spectacle. Why? Because where there's smoke, there's typically fire. So if they can make enough smoke, if you can argue enough about it and get you emotionally wrapped in, get you crying, get you yelling, well, then it makes it almost more existing in your head that what they said is actually the truth.

41:27In other words, if we're arguing so much about it, it has to be true. so when you can just suck all the the smoke out when you can actually be able to use silence so if you were to ask me something and I I knew it to be a lie so let's say you you told me a lie and I just responded with nothing and I'm just listening to you let's say I don't know did you go to the so-and-so's dinner on Saturday night and you did and you you said and you said no because you don't make me feel bad and you go no i'm just sit with that for a second now all of a sudden you're gonna feel what exposed yes you don't feel very exposed because i give you nothing to grab on to i didn't go to the dinner and i watched yeah yeah uh yeah well because yeah it's it's the same think of walking out on a plank on a pirate ship or something like you there's nothing else for you to grab on to you are fully exposed spotlight on you well because i've giving you nothing to grab onto.

42:30Often you'll hear a liar repeat a question back in the term of, oh, you don't, I mean, what, you don't think I, what, you think I did? Did you think I did? Well, why would you think that I did? Because they're trying to get you to share the narrative. Yes. So let's put it in my legal perspective. And I see this with witnesses a lot. There are a lot of people who lie. Paul, I don't know if you know this. It's just that nobody is going to catch them. and I might say you've been texting the day of the accident and they'll say texting like yeah you were texting the day of the accident like no I mean I don't think I'm I wouldn't text me I don't I never text there's a big cue right there the never or the always anytime somebody says never always it's very telling because they it's hardly ever true anytime you have a never and always and argument.

43:25What you've done is just now have an argument about whether they always or never have done it. Like you insert another argument into the conversation. And so typically what I like to respond with, Paul, for anybody listening is you can say this, say something feels off. So you have that silence, say something, something feels off. Usually the people who are telling the truth will go, okay, what, what, what's going on? Or they don't really mind. Why? Because the truth has nothing to hide. They won't get really upset about it. Liars, on the other hand, have this big emotional reaction, big emotional reaction.

44:04They'll take a level two to a level 11. What do you don't think? Well, you think I'm lying? You think I would lie and just have this big, huge thing? People who tell the truth are much more confident. Oh, okay. Oh, believe what you have for you. Believe whatever you want to think because they know that the truth doesn't need a, the truth doesn't need an excuse. And so that kind of thing is what's going to keep you. So I like to say something feels off or I'm going to have to come back to this conversation later. That one really bothers them because they don't, they're like, oh, I got to do this again.

44:38I already told my lie. Yeah. Yeah. Or you give them an out, you give them a little out. And it sounds like this. If you went to the dinner, let's say it's the Saturday day. I'll say, Like, if you went to the dinner, it's okay. And you go, yeah, I went to the dinner. I do this with my kids. This is my kids, a lot with their brushing their teeth. My daughter is the worst when it comes to admitting to brushing her teeth. She has a bold-faced lie to me all the time. I'll say, do you brush your teeth? She's like, yeah. Yes, sir. I'll say, do you brush your teeth? I didn't hear the faucet up there. I just did it really quietly.

45:10I brush my teeth. I'll say, if you didn't brush your teeth, it's okay. You can still go do it. and she'll go, I need to check my toothbrush. Oh, that's what she just means. She needs to go brush her teeth. Oh, gosh, so give them the out. I love the silent piece. And what I'm taking away, you tell me if I'm correct in this, is that typically if the person has not lied, they'll be okay sitting with that silence. Exactly. Okay. I have no problem with it. I always hear people say that business and pleasure don't mix. But don't you think that hiring is just like dating? Hear me out. You put your best self out there, craft the perfect job listing, and then crickets.

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46:38Head to Indeed.com slash We Need to Talk and use code We Need to Talk. Terms and conditions apply. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Paul, your show sponsor Tinder wants to know, can you remember the very first spark you felt between you and Jill? Absolutely. The first spark was the first time I saw her, which was from behind, to be honest with you. She was walking up ahead with her father. She turned around and I thought, oh, my goodness, she looks like a model, like she's perfect. And then what happened is because we were in a summer program, we went to the class and Jill had the highest test score among our class.

47:24And I knew, wow, at that moment, that was it. You know, she was beautiful. She was smart. That was the spark. That's all I needed. The spark is where it starts. It's like you're opening a new book. It is the beginning, and that's why the spark is so exciting and so beautiful. What's great about Tinder, it's the place that allows you to start the spark, and then you can carry that spark into real life where it matters most. So remember, it starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today. One concept that I saw you further in the book and in your work that I love is temperature checks. so check-ins yeah which i think is incredibly important especially in in our relationships so what are these check-ins and why do you believe it's so important in our communication i love to use distances and temperatures in my communication especially in relationships because it's a great way of saying things without saying it instead of me asking what's wrong with you.

48:23Instead of that, me saying, you feel far. I feel far from you. I feel like we're 10 yards apart. And so that's a lot easier. Or feel like, let's say if I feel like you're really cold right now. I'm saying it without saying it. What's cold? Cold is clammed up. It's distant. It's not wanting to move. It's icy. It's that feeling of that briskness that you get. Hot is the same thing. If somebody is really antsy, they're overwhelmed, they're overstimulated, they're heated right now. So using temperatures and distances is a great way to be able to say things in conversation that's going to bring you closer to connection quicker.

49:14So instead of saying, you know, the what's wrong with you, I love to say, I feel like we're 100 yards, I feel like you're 10 worlds apart from me right now. Use distances, use temperatures. It's a great way of getting to the point without assigning any kind of blame or making somebody feel like something they're doing is wrong. Because if you say, what's wrong with you? There may not be anything wrong, even though they're feeling a certain way or even though they're reacting strongly doesn't mean that it's wrong. And using distances of you feel, I'm noticing that you're feeling really cold right now, or I'm noticing that we're drifting further apart, or I'd like to know what could bring us closer together.

49:58That is the language that is connection rather than forcing that. What's, what's wrong with you? Can you just, can you just not talk to me? Like what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. That kind of stuff. I love it. That seems to be effective with every... Once again, I think these messages, they transcend age. Right. You know, culture. Relationships, work, any of it. Yeah, it works well. It works well. I have to talk about this because this comes up quite a bit on this couch. And that is the emotional availability and emotional connection from men. Do you believe that men struggle with their, our ability to emotionally connect?

50:42And for those of us who do, what words of advice do you have for us? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you look at all of our superheroes, you look at all of the Westerns, look at what is at least modeled for us our whole life. you're talking from movies to rappers to you name it it is this facade of we don't cry we don't talk about emotions we're tough we really don't want to smile and we're fine with the bad ending because it never mattered to us anyway and we're just the batman of the world and we just feel like everything is we're fine, live in the suffering. And we're in a world too where it's, let's say there is probably more at least responsibility or perceived responsibility of the man being the breadwinner.

51:40He's the work. That's what he's, you work, and it's sometimes thankless work. There are those that feel that way, also feel like they have to have this, can never be vulnerable. I would venture to guess that most husbands out there right now never heard their dad apologize. Never heard it. My dad would tell you he would hardly ever, if ever, heard his father apologize. He just didn't apologize for that kind of thing. He didn't regulate your emotions. Crying was for girls. and thankfully we're at a place in our world where we talk about it's in conversation more than it's ever been and how amazing is is that now how can we improve the emotional intelligence of men that's a topic that's a that's a whole that's a whole different episode that's not even that's a series yeah yeah um if you want to increase your emotional intelligence particularly lived with as a man, in my opinion.

52:54One, you need to own the recovery. You need to show the recovery, meaning acknowledge when you've made the mistake. To say, I could have said that better. That wasn't very kind. You know what? I could have done better. Like that phrase right there, Paul, I have received more messages, probably any other messages, any phrase I give for relationships on I could have done better. That little phrase, whoever utters that almost always gets from the other spouse, the other person, I could have done better too. Just that. If you don't even feel comfortable apologizing, the little recovery of I could have done better, your kids need to see you apologize.

53:38Your kids need to hear you apologize to them, like break that chain. They need to hear that. And so I just feel like so many never heard the apology, which is, I feel really, really deep. And then two, if you want to increase your emotional intelligence, give more benefits of the doubt. We're very, very keen to quickly assume, this goes for anybody really, we're going to assume that what somebody did was personally to hurt us. They cut you off in traffic. They did it personally. They didn't respond in five minutes. They did it personally. When you start saying the word maybe, in your mind, better things happen.

54:23Maybe they were stressed. Maybe they're overwhelmed. Maybe they need to get there faster than I do. Maybe they're having a bad day. A lot of that kind of stuff is just a simple little mindset that's going to help give them more benefits of the doubt. Because in my view, how frequently and often you give benefits of the doubt is a direct correlation to how much grace you give other people in life and relationships. And that same goes for men. If you want to be able to show more emotional regulation, you cannot see everything as a threat and a competition, as a fight, that kind of stuff. Like real confidence, these are not the people that feel like they have to strut around.

55:08Everybody knows that they're the big bad guy in town. It's the people that are typically quiet and know they're bad because they know it. The type of people that don't have to feel like they name drop. That has a lot to do with emotional regulation. Probably three, if you want to have a better emotionally regulated man in your life, Get them more to talk about where they want to be in the future. That's not tied to money. It's not tied to money. Not tied to money. Yeah, talk about the values that they want, the values that they want to leave with. Too often, I think men are focused on, I have to be the provider, so I have to have money.

55:48My worth is tied to how much money I bring in. If I don't bring money, I'm useless to a spouse. If I don't have bringing a job that is bringing X amount, if I can't afford this, my value is squat. And they've really, really, truly believed that. Because sometimes that really is actually true. And if they're not providing, they have no other purpose. But if you're able to talk about the wants and needs and desires of their heart, of what really matters to them. Have you ever seen those videos where it's like somebody gives a guy flowers? Oh, my gosh. I immediately thought about the good night videos.

56:25I didn't see the flowers. What's going on with the flowers? Yeah, so it's these videos where somebody will just randomly give, they'll just drop flowers by and they'll give them to a guy. And they're like, and they just totally brighten up and blossom. They've never been given flowers before. Yes. Ever. Yes. And so it feels like a very feminine thing to do. They're flower. They're a plant. You know? You know, so it's just it's funny to see that on perception of people. Yes. The videos where somebody's leaving a note, just, hey, I'm giving you a note and they leave and they're still recording them.

57:00And it's some like powerful statement. It's just as emotional. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I think all of that is applicable to our young boys as well, who I think desperately need it in this day and age. but all of that was that was so eloquent and what's interesting is that that was advice that i don't typically hear talked about yeah you know just the when you said to talk about so you know a man's dreams right without associating it with money yeah i thought wow like i smiled yeah without work or money yeah without work i just smiled thinking about that i love that yeah because i mean if i would what would you talk about you know you to that point is that i think there are many men who would not know what to talk about.

57:47Bingo. Yeah. They go, I don't, what would I talk about if it's not career or profession or work or job? If it's not something that brings an income, what would I, what would I ever have to talk about? Yeah. Isn't that funny? Yeah. And I think it's certainly true with, I think, how I talk to my son. My son's seven and he's just a little mini-me. Me, I feel like he's a direct replica. So anytime when I'm talking to him, I feel so strongly often when I'm talking to little me. Like if I could go back in time and talk to my seven-year-old Jefferson. And that really puts a big emphasis on what kind of safe space am I creating for him to talk?

58:28How is he seeing me apologize when I've messed up? How am I getting him to talk about things? because I can already see certain times that he's changing his words to better make, to make me feel more comfortable. He's, he's twist, he's, he's not twisting. He's changing, he's choosing words so that I don't feel uncomfortable or see that there's a problem or see that there's an issue or he doesn't want me to be disappointed about something. And so he will, he will, he's very empathetic. So he doesn't want anybody's emotions to, he cares about everybody's emotions. My daughter cares about nobody's emotions.

59:05She could care less about your emotions. You don't like it too bad. That's why she's lying to you. Exactly. That's probably exactly right. Well, I love it. I love it. All right. Let's shift gears to this last piece. And this is around how do we deal with these tough, tough, not disagreements, but arguments. Yeah. Perhaps some that are toxic. There are many people that are questioning, should I leave this relationship? or, you know, I'm in a very tumultuous situation with my children. What do I do? How do I manage it? And I thought some interesting framework we could use is, are you familiar with Gottman's The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?

59:49I know they have. I don't remember all of it, but yes. Yeah, please be. I watched some of their episode, too. It was great. Oh, my gosh. I think they're brilliant. Oh, and they are. Yeah. And not metaphorically, they are brilliant. They are brilliant. And this framework I find to be so interesting. So the first is criticism. And the whole idea with criticism is laying blame to a specific characteristic. You know, this happens in virtually every relationship. It happens. My wife will hate me for saying this, but I'm going to say it is that, you know, for example, one of the things that she likes to criticize me on is how I load the dishwasher.

1:00:32Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It is always incorrect how I do it. And actually, I think it is incorrect. And I'm not really spending as much time as I should be. So she's right about this. But, you know, so I'll get the criticism. Paul, look at how you don't even know how to load the dishwasher, you know. So there's the criticism. That's kind of the lowest level of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which, by the way, that framework is, in essence, These are the types of disagreements and arguments that we have in relationships that cause the demise of the relationship. So criticism, the lightest level.

1:01:08But if we have a partner who's criticizing us, how do we respond in an effective, empathetic way? Let's do it two ways. One, let's talk about how to effectively, if you need to criticize. Okay. And then let's talk how to address it if you're the other way around. I like it. So one would be, if you need to be critical, it's easy to do because you really are providing feedback and it's the way you're doing it. You're providing feedback all wrong. Being critical, being real nitpicky, you didn't put in the dishwasher, great. Or if you want to give feedback, the biggest takeaway is turn the word but and flip it to the word and.

1:01:51end, we have a habit of starting with good things, saying, but, and then saying what we really feel. Like a minute ago, um, you, you said something to the tune of like, and she's great, or I could learn to do it better, but I haven't. So we, you delete everything you say in front of it. So if I were to say, yeah, I love my wife. She's, she's great. Uh, but, um, and I said something else. Yeah. You just delete everything that you said. You are deleted. Exactly. This is the end. So instead, when you use the word and, you're building onto it. Instead of, it's the same way, like, let's say you're critiquing your children.

1:02:37Hey, I think that was great, but what I want you to do is you take away everything that's to compliment. But if you say and, I think this is great. and what I think would be even cooler or what I think we should do next. Or let's put it even in a work context. Somebody's presented a presentation. I love the presentation, but it's pretty confusing. Instead of the, this is a great presentation and I think it could benefit from some clarity or what would be even better, make it your, now it's together. So when you're giving criticism, if you find that you're somebody listening right now and you're like, ah, I can be a little critical, try to tweak instead of using but use and so if she's saying something to you about the dishwasher thank you for loading it and what I like and we could try and do X, Y, and Z or and next time will you put it this way and doggone it Paul just learn how to put in this dishwasher it's been 23 years whatever this is it's like come on now Exactly.

1:03:45Now, let's put it in terms of, you know, somebody's being very critical to you, and you need to have this kind of conversation with them. One is, it's best if you can have examples, because they're going to try and pull that from you. It's one of the first things people do in arguments. Well, tell me when. They want evidence. Show me the receipts. Oh, I said that? When's the last time I said that? It's always great to have that in your back pocket. Okay. You told me that last Tuesday when we talked about this. They'll go, okay, when else? It's great. So one, it's great to have some evidence of the criticism if it continues to be a nag on it because you're about to address it.

1:04:22Good to have in your pocket. Two, it's great to begin with the I language, not you language. Instead of you always, you never, you always complain about the dishwasher. You think they're going to say, yes, I do? No, they're going to now argue with you about the always or the never. You is very defensive. If I begin my phrase with you, you're going to naturally put up your guard. If I say I, so instead of me saying, you always complain to me, it's I feel or I've noticed or it seems, that's more objective, that I can't do the dishwasher. like you want me to do the dishwasher. So there's one way.

1:05:09Three is help me. When you're able to use language that's a learning, help me realize this. What am I missing? What can I do better? What can I do with this? So help me. Now, you got to be careful because there's some people that use,

1:05:28they try to say, I'm just not smart enough. I don't know. You're the smart one. and they're trying to just weaponize their incompetence. You know what I mean? Are you calling me? Yeah, no. No, I'm not. No, this is going terribly. That's exactly what I put. This is going so bad. You know what I mean? There's some people who are like, oh, I don't know how to fold the towels. I guess I don't know how. And they just walk off. No, they're just weaponizing their incompetence. They can. They just don't. Got to be careful with that. But that's in nice circumstances. That's in every husband and wife, partner relationship has these kind of little bitty criticisms like we talked about the first age.

1:06:09If it's much more critical than that, when it continues to be a peppering, continues to be a always a fault, that's where it blossomed into something that's a whole lot worse. So that more has to do with the pattern rather than the actual communication of it. Okay. And that's what I found too, in terms of how to determine if it's a toxic issue or not, is I find that toxicity typically it's a pattern. Right. Right. So it's, it's, it's repetition is happening over and over again. Um, so, all right, let's move to the next one. Defensiveness. Yeah. Okay. So defensiveness is, is kind of the next rung on this four horsemen of the apocalypse.

1:06:49And typically the defensive is, is, um, you know, you don't know how to do this dishwasher. I was like, what are you talking about? You never see me do it. Right, exactly. Of course not do it, right? You just don't see me do it. So it's this defensive position. So when you have a defensive partner, how do we handle that? How do you handle defensiveness in an argument, in any conversation when you're at home? Understand that in that moment when you feel defensive, what you're doing is kind of closing your own door and locking yourself in and then expecting them to still be in the room with you.

1:07:23You're expecting them to be able to get in, but you've locked yourself up. Like you, it sounds a lot like, well, they should know. They should understand, but you have no willingness to reciprocate that. You don't want to understand their point. You've put up the drawbridge. You've put out the moat. You don't want to do anything with this other person. Now, what are some phrases that get people defensive? Beginning with you is one of them. Second biggest culprit probably is beginning with why. Beginning with why. Why'd you do it like that? Why'd you do this? Why is very accusatory for anybody.

1:07:59If I were to say, why did you set this up like this? What are you going to think? I'll get defensive. Exactly. Well, because I wanted to. That's why, because this is the best way to do it. And yeah, why is very accusatory. It makes it sound like I don't agree and how you're doing something is wrong. So prove to me why you did it. It's an accusation. Why always gets, if you text somebody, why didn't you do this? I promise you they will get upset. They will get defensive because it sounds like you're on the offensive attack. Three, if you, another way that people get easily defensive is if you try to assume their words for them.

1:08:40You don't care. You don't even care about this. You don't know. Let's see, you don't even care about this or you wouldn't even know about this. and they just assume what you know for them. That kind of language just, it shuts everybody up. They're not going to want to, they're not going to do any of that. No, no. So really paying attention to the language, the language is the key. The language is everything. It's everything. It's everything. Now, tone, pace, just like we talked about, yeah. But the word choice is what's going to make the big difference when it comes to defensiveness because we put up our wall.

1:09:13We don't want to listen. the, whenever you say, why didn't you do this? I'm naturally going to defend myself. Now I'm in a defensive position. Now, how do you release some of this defensiveness? How do you, if you're feeling defensive, how do you release it a little bit? One is to what I say, call it out loud. When you claim it, you control it. So rather than me acting defensive, rather than me saying, what are you talking, I did it because I wanted to. What do you mean? You're the one who didn't do this. Like that's me acting on defensiveness versus you saying something to me and me responding, I can tell it's getting me defensive.

1:09:52Using I can tell. That phrase I can tell is a great way to show self-awareness. Number one way to show self-awareness is to use the phrase I can tell. I can tell, but I can tell I'm upset. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. And I can tell I need to time out. Anytime you say that, I can tell I'm getting defensive. It's like writing it down on a piece of paper and putting it on a desk between us and saying, that's what I'm feeling. Now I'm still Jefferson, and I'm not acting defensive, but I've now told you. And now you have control over it rather than acting out on it. Nice, nice. I'm using all of these.

1:10:28Yeah. I'm using all of these. Yeah. She's about to record this episode and repeat it. This is who you got it from. Yeah, exactly. So then, if language is everything, This makes the third horseman of the apocalypse even more challenging because it's stonewalling. So that's where the partner just shuts down emotionally. They walk away. They don't even want to deal with it. Right. So how do you manage a partner who is stonewalling you? It becomes very weaponized, meaning they use it punitively. They use it as a punishment. That's what they want. When somebody's stonewalling you, they want it as a punishment.

1:11:08There's some that say, oh, I just want to, I need to step away. That's fine. You can do that in a few days when you are really, if I'm really overwhelmed by something you said and I really don't like it and I'm mad at you, the emotionally intelligent response is, I'm upset by this. I need some time. I'll let you know when I'm ready. Or I'm not ignoring you. I need some space with this. Then I know. Then I'm communicating. I'm regulating my emotions and my body rather than just stonewalling up and not responding to anybody for whatever instead of acting out. Because when you're stonewalling, you really want them to keep texting.

1:11:48It's true. That's what you're really wanting. You're wanting that control. You're wanting that sense of, I know I got you. Now I'm the dominant one. Now you have to report to me. Now bow at my feet and grovel because that's what they're really wanting. The flip side, when somebody is in a position of, let's say not full stonewalling, but they need to take a step back. You have some people who will try and lash out and say really mean things in hopes that you re-engage. That's what they really want. They only really care what they're saying. They just want you to come back because stonewalling has such a big effect on people that have abandoned issues because you've left them.

1:12:30They're gone. They're now alone in the conversation, the issue, the problem. Now they're alone in how are we going to raise the kids, how are we going to address this issue, how are we going to address this, whatever that happened. You've left them alone in it, and now you're triggering their abandonment issues. If somebody is stonewalling you, there's nothing you can physically do that make them communicate with you. What they're doing is showing you who they are. And that in itself is data. That's about as good as you can hope for. People that are still wanting you, I prefer to communicate this silence is damaging us.

1:13:15I will be here when you're ready, period. Don't keep talking. The worst thing you could do is to use that as the word vomit where you just go, go, go, go, go, go, and you're sending paragraphs of text. all you're doing is reinforcing their behavior all you're doing is pushing them further away somebody says stop you need to stop they say i need a timeout you give them a timeout like problems happen when you try and force your time frame on theirs wow okay so then the the last one is the worst of them all right okay this is the one that the gottman said predicts divorce at 90 rates right when they see this happening time and time again and that's contempt yeah right so this this idea of I'm going to disrespect you, you know?

1:13:59So, and my wife has not said this, but I'm thinking about the dishwasher context. You know, it could be, you know, do I have to teach you to be an adult? Right. You know, you don't even know how to do this dishwasher. Yeah. You're a child. Something belittling. Something belittling. So when we have a partner belittling us, name calling us, how do we navigate that? If somebody is belittling you, name calling you, Paul, here's what I want you to do. Number one, you give it about five to seven seconds of nothing. I'm talking silence.

1:14:38Number two, what I want you to do. Now you notice how right there, what does it do? It lets their words fall. It tells them I'm not catching their words. Somebody says something. Let's imagine that you said something really ugly to me. I'm saying horrible to me. and I just let it sit. And again, it's exposed. I like to imagine their words just falling to the ground and me pointing at it and going, are you good with what you said there? You sure you want to, is that what you want to go with? I'm saying that all with my silence. Again, I'm getting to choose. I'm not picking it up and throwing it back.

1:15:13It's what most people do. The power isn't letting it go and letting it sit there and refusing to pick it up. Number two, use questions of intent. And these questions go to the purpose of what they're asking you to do or what they're wanting from you. For example, did you mean for that to sound offensive? Did you want that to hurt me? Did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean for that to sound rude? How did you want me to feel when you said that? Did you say that to hurt me, embarrass me, upset me? You name it. Did you mean for that to sound short? Anytime you ask questions of intent, it makes it even worse.

1:15:53You now not only have the silence of not responding to them, you now have made them have to give an essay, respond to you back as to why they said it in the first place. And they don't want to do that. Most people never want to. They don't want to answer in the silence. They don't want to answer the question of intent. Or if you want to take a really difficult approach, one that's probably, that's my favorite, is you ask them to say it again. When you get them to ask them to say it again, they typically don't. They can't. They say something ugly. You say, I need you to say that again. I need you to repeat that.

1:16:35Most of the time they can't do it. They won't. Why? Because you're making them hear their words. The goal here is we're making them hear their words at least two or three times. So you can do that by their silence. They'll hear it. Their words will echo back for them. I promise you, they'll hear them. Remember how you're not stepping on their words? You're letting them sit. So that's the first time they're going to hear it. The second time is you ask them to repeat it. Physically, they're going to have to repeat the belittling phrase that they used. They can't take that kind of stuff. Most people don't like to reveal their villain.

1:17:06They don't like to reveal that. And three is you ask the question of intent. Now, what was your purpose in saying that to me? Did you say that to make me feel small? Anything like that is a great way of just making them sputter because they won't be able to do anything. And three, most likely whatever they said, if they're going to have some type of terrible comeback response to that, you just let it linger because you need to let your silence be your reply because I promise you it'll need more than anything you could possibly say because you're choosing to let them be the ones to carry it. Let them be the ones that have to carry the weight of their consequences and you don't ever have to hold on to it.

1:17:49Yes, yes. I love this. Yeah, this is my favorite stuff. Yeah, yeah. You can tell it's like, yeah, look at this. Because I think the reason why this is so important is we're not taught how to do this anywhere in life. That's a fair point, yeah. Yeah. And what we have is such a default of the clapbacks, right? The you say something, I say something worse. Yes. I say something that gets more likes. I say something that's going to get more reaction out of people. But then time goes on, and then you start to feel worse about it. if you have a bad fight with somebody important to you, and they say something that is an insult, and you say something more of an insult, who has to apologize first?

1:18:40It's going to be you. That's the way life is. That's the way the apologies go. Whoever had the most conflict or said the most egregious thing last is the one that has to apologize. So typically the person that speaks last loses. Yes, yes. Now, there's something that I want to attach to this conversation. I saw this on Instagram, which, once again, I encourage everybody needs to follow you. Thank you. Everyone needs to follow you. You literally give a masterclass on communication in these bite-sized nuggets. And you recently posted about how to deal with a narcissist. Yeah. And so bringing it into this conversation is like we talked about criticism.

1:19:23We talked about defensiveness, stonewalling and contempt. Right. If we handle it the way that you've taught us to handle it, I see how that works easily for someone who cares. Right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what happens when you're dealing with someone like a true narcissist who doesn't care? Right. Yeah. How do you deal with the narcissist? You deal with the narcissist. What I like to say is, number one, understand you're in a game. and it's a game I call praise or provoke. Meaning anytime you're in a narcissist or in a conversation or an argument, you're playing a game and it's a game that's rigged.

1:20:03It looks like, I don't know if you've ever been, I don't know if they have them here, like a carnival game. Carnival? Yeah, okay. It looks like it's beatable. You can toss the ring over the bottle or hit the hoop, shoot the basketball into the rim that's forever away. It looks like it's winnable, like you can beat it, but it's ricked. You can't beat it. That's the way it's built. You can't change it. That's just how it is. It's the same thing when you're talking or arguing with the narcissist. They can't be reasoned with. You want to fix them. You want to think to yourself, if only I can just explain it in a way that's going to make them see how what they're doing is hurting me.

1:20:46If they could see that they're damaging us in some way. They can't do it. The game is rigged. And once you realize, this is a game that I'm in. This isn't real life. This is just, I can't communicate with this person. I can't reason with them. They don't do empathy. They do anything that affects their reputation. I call it praise or provoke because they get the same feeling either way. If you are not lavishing them with praise, then they'll create some type of drama to provoke you and to create an argument to still get those same type of emotions, to get the sense of control over you in some sense.

1:21:32So understanding it's a game of praise and provoke that's not going to get you anywhere. How do you handle that? Two, you want to use phrases that are very neutral. These are phrases like noted. Got it. Understood. That's interesting. Thank you. Things that are flat, things that you can't do anything with. A word like noted, can't do anything with it. But if I were to say, well, okay, if that's your opinion, they can do anything with that. My opinion? Oh, you're going to talk to me like that? And they'll take it and run with it. And then provoke you. And then provoke you. And then now you're in the game again.

1:22:07Using flat statements, neutral statements, those are keys to not be able to, you can't do anything with them. Nobody can, you can't create a fire out of those. They're not, they're not good kindling. They can't do anything. So, and three, if you need to, you need to make sure you limit their time. So limit the time that you're in front of them. Why are you with them? Why are you, why are you in the room with them? Are you, maybe you're married to one. Maybe you're in a relationship with one, maybe you are related to one in some sense. So you have to make sure of how long are you going to be in this kind of dynamic.

1:22:40One other little bonus that I like to talk about is, and this is advanced, Paul, this is some advanced thinking. Hit us. Hit us. So you have to use phrases that make them think about outside the walls of the conversation. So they think they're just talking to you. They don't care about you. They'll say whatever they need to say to control you. But they can't control the masses. And so you have to use words that make them reconsider how they look in that moment. For example, I've used phrases with experts in depositions and trials who absolutely show narcissistic tendencies across the board. I might be arguing with them, and they'll never agree with me.

1:23:26But if I were to say, and you think the jury is going to agree with this, they'll go, well, I mean, maybe. And they start to just totally, like on a dime, switch, change to be a different person. Now, all of a sudden, they're more likable. They're saying things that are a little bit more reasonable and more affable. Why? Because they know what they're saying is a very strong stance because they have to kind of water it down. So anytime you can use language like people, others, if you think, like, for example, you're in a conversation with, let's say you're a narcissist right now. I'm talking with you and you're trying to pull a point to me.

1:23:57And I'd say, well, if you think others will agree with you and you think that's a good look right now. Or, you know, I'm not sure how other people would think about that. Anytime I can make them remember, there's a collective. It's not just me and you. Yes. You know, I don't know. I don't know what other people might think of this conversation right now. They will change on a dime because the world's their stage. Yeah. That is so good. Yeah. That is so good. All right. It works. I can see it working. Yeah. Because you're right, because they care about what's happening outside the walls, as you said.

1:24:34Yeah. And anytime you can break that down. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen it time and time again, anytime I can say it. And you think other people are going to agree with your opinion. Yes. They'll change. And they change. Within having these challenging conversations, gaslighting is a term that I now see all over the place. And it is overused and misused. But it does actually happen in many relationships. So how do you define gaslighting? And then how do we communicate with someone who is gaslighting us? Mm-hmm. Gaslighting, to me, is somebody trying to alter your truth, what you know to be. They're trying to challenge the veracity of statements of what you know, making you feel like you've lost your mind.

1:25:27These are people who will instantly go to, you're insane. You're crazy. How could you ever believe this? Nobody agrees with you. You know, everybody thinks you're a little crazy, right? You know this. I'm the only one that's actually trying to be your friend here in this place and try and triangulate things. It's very tied to toxic behaviors, to lying. There's a lot of the manipulation. They're all very related. Gaslighting in particular is trying to be controlling and say, I'm the only one you can trust to tell you the truth. In the face of all kinds of other lies, I'm the only one that can tell you the truth.

1:25:59Well, how do you deal with somebody who's a gas lighter. What I like to use, what I would recommend is you use the phrase, I see things differently, or I remember things differently. Those two phrases are the key. Somebody says something to you, you go, I remember things differently. So let's put it in terms of bite-sized chunks. Number one, stand your ground, meaning you cannot start to chase whatever lie they're telling you. Liars, gaslighters lie. That's their tactic. They want you to chase wherever they go. It's like a cat in a laser pointer. You ever seen like a laser pointer and cats chase it everywhere?

1:26:39It's that. They're just holding it. They're wanting you to go from place to place to place. They're the ones in control and they're wanting you to do it. Or they dig a hole and they're expecting you to fill it. So they dig a hole. It's like, this is my lie. And you're going, that's not true. And you start filling it. Then they tell another lie and they start filling it. You just need to let them fall in the hole. There is no sense in trying to justify or try to fix their lie because that's what they want. The past is their playground. They like to play with it. You ever had a conversation or an argument with somebody who's gaslighting?

1:27:12You know what they like to do is try and twist the narrative. They'll say, no, no, no. If you remember, you said this, I said this, and they'll start to recount every single who said what, who, when, what happened, and they'll do it in a narrative that fits, yeah, fits them. And you know that's not what's true. That's not what happened. Rather than trying to fix it, put down the shovel and to use the phrase, I remember things differently. You repeat it as many times as you need to. I remember things differently. Again, they can't do anything with that. They can't force you to say anything. They can't create another lie out of that.

1:27:51They can't create a, construct a narrative out of it. There's nothing that they can possibly do. And three, if they continue to gaslight you and continue to force that, again, it should be telling, I guess let's put three as observe the emotional discrepancy, meaning people who, if they don't feel like you're taking in their lie, they get very mad. Why? Because they're very afraid, very exposing, so they're going to lash out. But see the discrepancy of where the conversation is versus where they're trying to take it. They're starting to yell. They're starting to scream. They're starting to go crazy.

1:28:28That in of itself is all the warning sign you need to just stay, get away, I remember things differently, and leave it there. Yes. Yeah. You know, I'm picking up too, it seems like the commonality with these liars is the emotional discrepancy. Yes. That piece. once they're challenged and you stand your ground, that emotional bar just... It's gone. It's gone. Yeah. And what it does is when you hear, when we say emotional discrepancy, let's say normal conversation is at a level two. But all of a sudden I take it up to a number 11 and I'm really loud and I'm really getting after and I speak a whole lot faster and in my body language I'm looking mad.

1:29:08I'm trying to look threatening and look dominating. That is a huge jump if you can go from here to here. that discrepancy is telling you something and it's telling you that they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to and it's and it can be for good or for bad so i can have a really big emotional reaction to somebody who said something that's very triggering to me me personally that let's say somebody let's let's say i said something and it hit somebody's abandonment issues or issues with their mother or father or it's the same thing with like your spouse, you know their button, you know the one thing that will send them through the roof.

1:29:47That doesn't mean it's narcissistic or manipulative or gaslighting. It just means that's their emotional trigger. But that discrepancy is very clear, typically in the liars and manipulators, because they want quickly to get over the wall and control you. They want to control the narrative. They want all sense of you need to buy into their lie or else they They know they're losing. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. All right. I want to go to kind of the ending point of these difficult conversations, very difficult conversations, is around when family members are engaging in these difficult conversations with us.

1:30:29So in particular, those in couples are often asked, well, where are you going to have a child? It's been five years. It's been 10 years. You haven't had a child yet, but where we have perhaps parents, parents-in-law imposing their will on us, maybe in terms of why haven't you had a child? Or I don't agree with how you're raising your child. You know, this is not how we do it in our family. How do we navigate conversations with more authoritative figures in our life? Can we, let's talk real quick about why they feel the need to ask that kind of thing. So I think it's worth exploring with me and you.

1:31:13I mean, why would mothers, I'm not a mother, I'm a father. I know why I might ask something in a way that I don't mean it offensively, but I am curious. And I'm curious of why, why, why do you think parents want to ask that kind of thing? Is it disapproving? Do they feel like they disapprove of the kids? No, no. You think that they wish that they were more like them? You know, I suppose a component of it could be fear. The reason why I go back to fear is because I think this is another challenge that a lot of the audience has, and that is, you know, you should be married already. Right. You're 35.

1:31:59What are you doing? You should already have a child by now. You should be married. And I think a lot of it could be their fear in appropriately assigned. But I think that it could be, I think that they could be reacting out of fear. Right. I think you're right. I think a lot of it has to do, like with most things, has to do with the fear, whether they're, they want their child to have a partner. They don't want them to be alone should they not be there. Now, there's also some other mother-in-laws who just need that control. Because their son is the biggest thing to them, and they need to make sure that they are the ones controlling and thinking what the wife should do and disproving.

1:32:47If it's not anything like what they would do, they need to voice that. Common across, I think, all cultures all over the world. How do you handle that kind of thing? One, you need to see for what it is. That's typically a show of personal selfish concern from them. They're wanting something. It either needs to, the life needs to look more like they want it to be. So one, recognize where it's coming from. Rather than taking it super personally, recognize where it's coming from. I would encourage you to ask questions that are going to open them up a little bit more. Questions like, what makes you ask?

1:33:29Something as easy as that is often to get them. Why? Because we want to find more information. Sure. We want to find, is it really the fear? Rather than getting so worked up and personal enough and getting defensive, just ask one more question, like we talked about, that's going to get you a little bit more information of where is the question coming from? Is it truly curiosity or is it because their friend Janice asked them two weeks ago and they didn't know what to say, so they need to, you know, what do I know? Right. So number one, understand the context. Two, if you can, use words of appreciation but dismissal.

1:34:07This is what I – this is – Appreciation but dismissal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean dismissive in the positive context, not in like a get out of here. Okay. So that would sound like I appreciate the concern or happy. I appreciate the thought we're good. something as simple as that. You're not having to explain. Now, there are people who would probably rather hear me say the hard stuff of, excuse me, that's none of your business. In personal context with family and friends, that's not the best move. With strangers, sure. It's what makes you ask, why should you know? Now, that's a defensive statement, but if it's a stranger, go for it.

1:34:50Okay, I see it. I see it. It's a nice dismiss. It's a nice dismiss. It's a soft dismiss. It is, yes. Okay. So then rounding out this difficult conversation, right, this category is what happens if we need a hard dismiss? If we are letting someone go out of our life or breaking up? Oh. How do we approach and handle that conversation? Those are hard. Those are probably some of the hardest conversations you'll ever have with people who you need to, you know. that you need to let go of? People that they're wonderful people. You just know, you know, they're not, they're not your person. They're not your people.

1:35:35Or they have a great job and they're good, but you know they're not going to be with you. How do you have those kind of conversations? Well, you can use a frame like we talked about, the one, two, three. What I would encourage is you need to eliminate the small talk. If you need to have a really difficult conversation with somebody, you need to end the relationship. Don't begin with the small talk. That begins, it typically sounds like, so look, Paul, I've really enjoyed getting to know you these last few hours and everything, but right there, that's where it is.

1:36:16or a lot of times we like to use this other phrase. We'll say, Paul, it's been great. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. So listen, that right there is we know it's all going downhill. Yes. And the other person is just in immense anxiety because they don't know what's happening. They're going to assume you're automatically, you hate them, everything's going worse. that's why it's not great to start with the positive and then end with the negative. Not going to go well. Instead, this is what I want you to do. Number one, eliminate the small talk. Two, get straight to the point. You're going to label the conversation.

1:36:57Label it before you even get started. You're going to say something to the tune of, this is going to be a difficult conversation. You know, see how easy that is? This is going to be a difficult conversation. Rather than making them assume or guess or figure out it's difficult, I'm telling you at the outset, this is going to be a difficult conversation or this is going to be hard to talk about. You're not going to like what I have to say. This is probably going to come as a surprise to you. I'm not going to enjoy this conversation. Anything like that is going to allow, is going to label exactly what's coming up and then allow them to kind of catch themselves, ready themselves, and then deliver what you need to deliver.

1:37:34Then you need to cut it. So three would be in the relationship, right? Then don't wait to the very end. And I promise you, the quicker you pull off the Band-Aid, the more relief it's going to be and the more connection and conversation you're actually going to have. You see how it's not nearly as kind when you're indirect. You know, what's so fascinating to me about this is this, once again, is more advice that really flies in the face of conventional thought. because I think that the conventional way of dismissing someone, letting someone go, et cetera, is the crap sandwich. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:38:11Right? So the bread on top, say something positive and kind and nice. Then the meat, hit them with the, okay, this is not going to work. And then hit them with another piece of bread. Yeah, exactly. And it's a sandwich. And what you are suggesting that we do is much more effective. Right. It's kinder to the individual. And I think that we, as the person who's delivering it, we can deliver it with more integrity. Yeah, it's more genuine. It's more honest. Yeah. I mean, it's even worse when you can, when you leave a conversation like that and you feel worse about it, like you feel bad. And the other person now doesn't really trust you because you started with all these wonderful things and then you ended it with a curveball for them rather than being truthful at the outset.

1:38:58And so the quicker you can, let's say, even if you need to end a relationship, rather than, as soon as you say this phrase, look, you've been great. You're already talking in past tense. That's true. You know, look, I've really enjoyed getting to know you've been so great. And, you know, it's not you. It's me. Of course it is. Of course it's me. I mean, it's that kind of language does nothing but make them despise you later. Because it doesn't match their experience. You're giving them fake, empty words. This compliment sandwich is hard to chew. You know, it's impossible to swallow. And truly, it's an insult sandwich, I guess, because if you, I mean, it's the insults in the middle.

1:39:45You know what I mean? If it's a ham sandwich, you call it a ham sandwich. If the insult's in the middle, it should really be an insult sandwich. but it's this idea that if I slow roll these soft compliments and then at the end I have to so look it's not really my fault and there's things that you know we're just not really compatible and I just really feel like that kind of language is terrible you can phrase it however you want to but the point is eliminate the small talk label the conversation give them a little breath and then tell them what's going on. That's far, far better and far kinder in your communication.

1:40:27It is. Thank you. Thank you for that. So Jefferson, what do we have here? So this is how I like to illustrate the right way and wrong way to try and change somebody's mind. So in communication, often you come across somebody and you just don't agree with them and you think, why can't they just understand me? Here's the point with this. We have two glasses of water. two are full. One is going to represent your mind and one's going to represent my mind. And let's just say this is just the picture of general knowledge, all right, whatever this is. Here, whenever you want to change somebody's mind, what I teach is you can't pour new thoughts into a glass that's already full.

1:41:03So let's say we have an opinion on how we should run things. Let's say in relationships, an opinion on how we should run finances, opinion on how we should parent the kids or how we should discipline or how we should run the house, whatever it is. in any context. Everybody has their own glass that's full of things. That's generally things of everything from their childhood for how they were raised. Because we come into things, into relationships, everything that we were taught. So how we were taught is the only right way to do things. That's right. That's right. So you can't pour right here new thoughts into a glass that's already full.

1:41:39Now, if I'm going to take this glass and I'm going to say, I want to change your mind on something. And if I start with, hey, you're so wrong. You don't understand. Why are you doing it this way? I don't get it. I don't understand. And it just what? It thumps over. Yeah, because you're already full. If I want to change your mind, I have to start with questions. Questions of getting them to pour all of their thoughts out before I can pour anything else in. So what goes wrong is we start to try and prove and prove and prove. The takeaway, here is rather than having something to prove, I want you to have something to learn.

1:42:18So right here, I know it's going to splice some water, but every time I ask a question, I want you to pour some water out. So let's say you and I are disagreeing about something. Rather than me trying to push and prove my point, I'm going to ask the question, well, what led to that decision for you? I pour out some water. Okay. I'll pour out a good bit. That's my decision. That's perfect right there. That's what led to it. There we go. Now I'm going to say, what else? How did you come to that opinion? How long have you had that? Yeah, my whole life. This is what I was taught. Yeah. Okay. And where did they learn?

1:42:52Is this something that you've grown up with, or do you feel like this is something that you feel like this is the only right way to do it? Yeah, I was taught this was it. This is the only way to do it. And so you're going to pour all your glass out. Now, perfect. Now, once you feel like you've been 100 % heard and acknowledged and something that I have now given you all the space to say what you need to say and tell me why. And I've actually been curious enough to have the patience enough to know why you believe what you know. Yes. Now, you're going to be reciprocating to ask me what. What you know.

1:43:26There we go. And now. So why do you think that? Exactly. And then I'm going to have it and I'm going to have the glass. I see it. Yeah. I see it. So that is the prerequisite. Correct. is that we have to feel as if, not we have to feel, we have to ensure that our partner has been heard. Yes. We have to ensure that our partner has, in essence, emptied themselves of their thoughts. Right. If there's one mindset that anybody can have to have better conversations, it's have, instead of having something to prove, have something to learn. So whenever you are asking questions, instead of prove, prove says, you need to understand what I'm saying.

1:44:02Listen here, buddy. I don't know if you know who you're talking to. That's having something to prove. Having something to learn says, I wonder why they're saying that. I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they said it that way. When you're using those questions to get to the person behind the surface, that's where you're having a real connection and real conversations. So now, Jefferson, we have talked about many things. So many. Is there anything that we have not yet talked about that you would like to discuss? Hmm. If I could give your listeners something that will quickly change how they have conversations, truly whatever life they want to have, they just need to change better words.

1:44:43The power of their next conversation really has the power to control everything because what you say is who you are. truly that's that's all what we will ever know to remember you by is what you said so you can truly change your entire life simply by what you decide to say next yeah and you think about also how that leads to our health yeah our ability to impact the world you know you we talked a lot about uh co-regulation in this conversation and it seems like the key component to that co-regulation is being able to communicate with someone. Right. You know, that's the key. And how co-regulation and that relationship leads to longer life, happier life, healthier life.

1:45:32And that stems from our ability to communicate. And the people who surround you and how they communicate. Yes. Yes. So then, here is the final question. All right. That everyone gets. And there's a lot of pressure now on your question or your answer to this question. Okay. Okay, so the final question that everyone gets is, out of all of the conversations you have had in your lifetime, which stands as the most profound to you? And who was it with? What did you learn? I was about 15. I was in my parents' living room. And my grandfather was over. That's my mom's dad. Call him Papa. and he was, he's still with us.

1:46:22He's in an assisted living home right now, and he was the grandfather that came to every ball game. He would travel three hours to catch a ball game, and when he came on the weekends, I knew he was cooking breakfast. I'd always wake up to the smell of bacon, and he'd always get us donuts. Like, that was his thing. I could just be so excited at the chance when he got to come, and he always bought a paper because he loved crosswords. So I grew up usually sitting in his lap until I couldn't fit then sitting beside him doing crosswords. And I'll never forget the time when I was asking him, what's it like getting old?

1:47:08Because he was telling me, I can't see as well. He was trying to adjust things. He wasn't moving around as much. and he said, you know, what matters the most is that you just want to be around the people that you love. He said, nothing else, you find out that nothing else really matters. Now, you have to hear this in a voice of a guy who worked in a sawmill, in a refinery, and sounds as country as you can possibly think, and for him to say that to me, I've never forgotten it. He said, you just want to keep the people that you love close. And that hit me so hard in that moment because it made everything, it put everything in perspective, Paul.

1:47:57You could travel the world and you could see everything, but you really just want the people you love. And there's nothing like the sound of the voice of the people that you love and the people that you choose. And you find that you when we were in high school, we want all the friends. You realize the older you get, you want your friends really few, and most of all you want them close. And that really helped put things in perspective for me at an early age of what really truly mattered, and all the rest is just talk. You know, I feel exactly the same way. I feel like exactly the same way, you know, and I can see how much the people you love mean to you.

1:48:50I can see it. I can see in how you show up. I can see it in the work that you do, you know, and I think that's why so many of us stand behind you, you know, because you are a force for good. And I hope that you continue, you know, to do good and continue to change the world. we're so appreciative of you and the work you do it's it's incredible it really is and it's important work thank you it means a lot to me yeah thank you man yes brother

1:49:21jefferson fisher you know the the king of communication what stands out to me most is how consistent jefferson is in his answers he talks a lot about frameworks But what's interesting to me is that each answer had a framework. He would repeat the question that was asked. He would then give context around the answer and then end the answer in three, four, five specific action items. And I think that's one of the reasons why the world adores this guy, is he makes content and information digestible for all of us. He's not just telling us, but he's modeling the communication in his communication. I think the biggest takeaway from the audience is not just the pause and the silence, but in essence, to slow everything down.

1:50:21Opposed to speed it up, right? When we speed it up, it shows that we're nervous, that we're anxious, that we're unsure. He showed a lot of parallels between people who are lying and a sped up conversation. Instead, try to slow it down, slowing down your pace, asserting your tone. When Jefferson talked about the challenges that men have with emotional availability, to me, that was one of the favorite parts of this entire conversation for me. And he gave some insight that I've never heard anyone give. And when he said, most of us have never seen our fathers or our grandfathers apologize, I thought, wow.

1:51:07You know, I can't recall my grandfather, either of my grandfathers who I adored and worshipped, I can't recall them ever apologizing. So the importance of modeling that behavior for my boys is something that I'm taking away. You know, this is another person asking me for advice on their relationship, which is exactly why I created the Love Journal. This journal is a tool to better understand yourself and what you need in your relationship, to better understand your partner and what they truly need in the relationship. But more importantly, what you as a couple need in order to grow and strengthen the love you have.

1:51:53It is easy to understand, but more importantly, easier to execute. The more effort and time that you place, the more reward that you'll get. But as a minimum as 10 minutes a week can change your relationship. You can get the Love Journal through the link in the description.

1:52:23Thank you.