The Quiet Struggles We Carry Alone

0:01Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Red Bull Summer All Day Play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end DJ, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit redbull.com slash bright summer ahead to learn more. See you this summer. Welcome to We're Talking. This Mental Health Awareness Week, we sit down with Charlie Maxey for a deeply honest conversation about anxiety, grief, and the quiet struggles we often carry alone. Charlie reflects on the moments that shaped him and why connection, not perfection, is what truly matters.

1:00Would you say that the darkest period of your life

1:09was happening while you were creating either this book or the first book? Was that the darkest period? I don't think it was. What was the darkest? If we could tap into... That they stay with me. Yes. I have memories that are there. They're dark moments where, you know, things catch up with you, things you've been running from, and it causes this.

1:40What do I do with this? What have you been running from? Well, I think, you know, there was some, like when I was a boy, at that boarding school, there were some dark things that went on. and then losing friends. And I think we all have periods which are extremely difficult and cause us to go into dark places and we don't know what to do when we're in them. And sometimes, I'm not even sure we actually recognize we're in them. We're just fighting to stick, to stay. and we eat cake or whatever it is that's helping. It's often in retrospect where you go, whoa, that was hard. Or we're talking to a friend and we find ourselves talking fast and we start getting emotional, tears poor, and we didn't even know it was there.

2:40And I think a lot of our lives are spent with things going on that we're not hugely aware of. you know that can be real like cancer or whatever it is we're suffering that's obvious but there's other stuff right that we're processing from long ago that's deep within us deep we all have it and so I suppose I can't put a finger on it that was the darkest time of my life but there have been times when I've I've been aware of it and it's caused me to seek help or caused me to question or need to process something. And so I think I've drawn on those times.

3:27And, you know, and the return to love, you know, the mole says, where did your strength come from? When he reconnects from remembering I am loved. Yes. It's that notion of light, a notion of connection, a notion that in spite of everything, you're held, you're known, you're loved. Has that been the antidote? Has love been the antidote for your mental health? Yeah, it's been a huge thing. I mean, that vulnerability and the act of it is like a window into a whole new world of existence and possibility and freedom. That you can tell, you can say this, and it's the most courageous thing, and it's just letting a door open.

4:22And I used to be terrified of that door because what was going to happen if I dared open it? Like, oh, my God. just keep it down and carry on stoically. And wow, you know, and it's not easy and it's not immediate, but it's this process of discovery that your, your visceral root, your raw humaneness and humanity is incredible and universal. Yes. Universal, like you're not this free, everybody. we're all so just talk about it and connect and connect has that helped with because i know anxiety is something that i've uh had challenges with right uh for for many years yeah uh i understand this is definitely same huge same same for you so how do you manage that how do you manage your anxiety i i so i remember um i think i've had low low level anxiety a lot and i've manage it for a reason.

5:26But then I think that it goes up a level sometimes and presents itself as what I thought I was dying. Like I thought, my heart was going so fast that I was sort of holding onto the wall and like, what is this? And a friend of mine is a doctor and I called him, I said, I think I might be dying. He said, describe to me what you feel. I said, my heart's going a thousand miles, I don't know, I have to cling to it. He said, I think I'm going to talk you down from this." And he said, the first thing you need to do is not be frightened of what you're feeling. Don't be frightened of it, it's okay. And he taught me how to not be fearful of the fear itself.

6:09Don't be anxious of your anxiety, because that just means it builds like a wall. Is there a technique that you could share that was effective for you? He taught me, well, there was the breathing thing. He said, you're a shallow breather okay so he did the four seconds in hold it four seconds out do that for two minutes so i did that and then we discussed a lot about how anxiety can be triggered by nothing at all doesn't need a valid context or circumstance it can just come out of nowhere which it still does And I'm just like, what? What is that? Yes. So I do breathing and I tell myself to not fear it.

6:52And there's a page in the book about that. Sometimes things spin out of control. And remember that you are not a storm. It's not you. So it's okay.

7:06And then obviously in times when it's not going on, practice things that help you. whether it's meditation, nature, running, some pray, some breathe, some meditate, all these things. Drawing. Drawing. Yes. Connecting with what you love, talking, talking. Don't be frightened of what you feel. Don't be ashamed of what you feel. Music, like swimming in cold water. you can encourage the healthy I'm not a neuroscientist and I would never pretend to know that I understood these things but I know what works for me and some of my friends I think for me that the journey has been to get to a place where I'm sitting here with you Paul and if I wasn't being filmed I'd say the same thing which is that that open that door and talk about it I have plenty of friends who didn't and they're not here anymore and it nailed them and I sometimes really it's pointless regret, it's a silly thing but imagine if we'd had the time to really talk about it yes it's not weakness, it's not a failing a lot of men feel like it's such a failing to struggle with this It's perfectly normal in this world.

8:35We live in a crazy world. And if you're sensitive, you feel things, you're going to feel this. It's like with you, you're an extremely connected, brilliant-minded, highly sensitive individual who's bound to feel anxious at times because you care so much. The more you care, I think the more anxious you're going to be about your kids, the world. What's going to happen tomorrow? what's going on here like I think not to feel that it's almost being numb so wow yeah but I think it's how we we respond to that and how we look after ourselves you know that really matters and I know you know sitting here like in saying these words that I have like such a long way to go on the way here I was panicking I was going to miss the train I forgot to lock the door I had to zoom back I had locked it I just thought I had I have that whole thing going on did I didn't I didn't I did I okay I'll go back minutes to spare when I arrive at the station

9:50I'm just a sort of stumbling fumbling semi-introverted person who doesn't still is making is winging it but I think we can all we're learning from each other and the more we can talk about it the more we'll learn you know absolutely absolutely I don't know much Paul but just acknowledging it there you go I think that's the key to everything is connection, communication

10:21putting your hand up going this is me this is me why are we doing this by the way I don't mean to get all heavy like i no i don't mean to poor this this is a heavy conversation and and and and and and what i love most about these conversations is that this is one of those rare opportunities for so many people right this is your opportunity to just reflect yeah with no judgment whatsoever Yeah. You know, and go back to Zimbabwe and sit there picking the tea, you know. That's what this opportunity is about. That moment. Okay, so when I was picking the tea, plucking tea is difficult. Like I earned one cent, literally.

11:13Everyone else is making$2 a day, which is not much. And I remember this guy, John, who was trying to teach me to pluck. And he was laughing at me because, you know, he was, the elegance of his movements was just like a machine. And they were laughing at me. And there was one time at lunchtime when we were all laughing and John, I remember John stopping. Like he was just looking at me. You know, you get to the moment where this strange pause and he was nodding. And I was like, what? He said, you're just the same, aren't you? And I said, yeah, he said, we're just the same. We're all just the same.

12:02And it was just like, oh, wow. Humanity is just, he is a white boy from Battersea, John, sub-Saharan, poverty-stricken, you know, And we had this moment when I went, and it was, that moment lasted and lasted and lasted and lasted. And we were just like, yeah. And I could see his lights going on and mine. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. It's interesting. I feel like we do this, we do it to this day, but we have to be fully connected and emotionally aware in order to fully, fully download. Download. Yes. And willing and open. Yes. There is. All this division, but come on. Yeah. It doesn't need to be.

13:00No. I mean, this is, you can argue that we're more divided today than ever. You can really make that argument. You could, yeah. Yeah. I am also, you know, we haven't talked about, so you were diagnosed with ADHD. Is that correct? Yeah, or various people, the doctor said, I don't know whether you were diagnosed, but yeah i mean people have said you you're on the spectrum which i think fine okay he's like yep i don't mind that this is me and it's evident to me that i i definitely struggle with it because in conversations my brain will drift into eight different areas and people say is charlie here today or not well i see charlie is definitely here today very i feel very present here you are here But sometimes, like, I'm just removed.

13:51I'm thinking about ideas or something isn't holding me in the moment. Okay. Or I'm unaware that I'm not even there. Ah, I see. Which is why it shocked me when my friend said, is Charlie here today or isn't he? I'm like, oh, I wasn't aware that I'm sometimes not. Yeah. You know, people sort of say, or used to say to me, your attention span is terrible, and yet you manage to do all these drawings. You've got to have real attention to do them. And I think I realize that there are things we can do when we struggle with attention issues that hold us, that so absorb us. And it's a place that I, with drawings, I can just disappear into and I can just...

14:40And there's something about, you know, I've got this iPad here where I can scribble on. So I have this, and this, I normally draw with ink, but for the sake of argument I can make marks, and I can similarly do. Sometimes if I'm on the phone, I find myself drawing the boy

15:12you know, on a branch without even realizing what I, without thinking what I'm really doing, you know. It just, the boy just. Just comes out. Or, you know, or I'll be thinking about, talking about what I'm doing in the morning or someone's talking to me and I'll be listening. But, you know, I'll be, you know, this comes out, you know. Oh, yeah, there's the horse. Do you see what I'm saying? So you see it. But the lines keep me focused. The lines are actually... Making the marks. Okay. It's something about making marks that calms me down. So if you're making... It holds my attention. So could you make marks and the two of us have a conversation at the same time?

16:05You could do that. Yeah. Girl, winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope? It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Okay. Could we continue our conversation and you... And I'll just keep drawing?

16:42And you doodle a little bit. Okay. So let's talk about, while doodling, this is probably the best topic is friendship. Oh, yeah. With your friends and your friendship circle, what do you do? What's a Charlie hangout, friend hangout? Are you playing poker? Are you watching reality television? What are you doing? No, we talk, it varies. My friends are quite eclectic and very different. So we all have really, and they bring out different parts of me. Okay. Which is why when someone dies, you sometimes lose that part of you that they brought up. Which really interests me. It is. I've lost quite a few friends and the bits we used to laugh about and the silly noises we made.

17:31and the side. I go on. Unless I can, but they're so unique. And when I lost Barney, lovely Barney, my dog, who was also my friend, there was a language I used with him. And I used to say every morning when I've heard him, I used to say, you're an extremely good little chap. And I would extend the word extremely and he'd go crazy with the word extremely because you're extra, extra, extra special like that. And it was his language. And what's amazing for me with those words is that Colin, my Irish friend's daughter, Amelia, who's four, when we were making the book together, I would sometimes, she would say, how did you speak to Barony?

18:15She's Irish. I'd say, you're extreme. And so she now, he films her running around the garden going, you're extra special. You're extremely good. And so for me, that's something that hasn't died. And I suppose friends to me, going back to the original, we can relish the uniqueness of parts of each other that only are there with each other. And I love that. And they're friends who I can... You know, doing nothing with friends is never doing nothing, is it? And that's a line from a book which I think I like because you don't need to be doing a thing. You don't need to be going to football or watching a football.

18:59but you can just literally do this and chat or go for a walk and talk about anything. Just sitting in silence is doing an awful lot. You don't need to fill it. You know? Yes. Now, you mentioned something that's near and dear to my heart, and that was when you said that when someone passes, when a friend passes away, there's something lost, right? Yeah. So often on We Need to Talk, I've referred to a friend of mine named Andre Smith. He was my best friend. He passed away a few years ago. And you said something that now I'm just reflecting on for the first time, and that is that I notice that there's a part of me that died with him.

19:43Yeah. And so I wonder, you said you mentioned you've had many friends who have passed. Too many. How do you feel like you've properly grieved for them? That's a great question. I would say, in honesty, no.

20:12But I think grief for me is going in installments. And when I was a kid, I had a record by Art Garfunkel, and one of the lines was, reality it's not for me and it makes me laugh and I remember thinking I like that because reality I can only take in small doses otherwise it gets too much I think probably the subconscious is quite good on one level about drip feeding stuff to us because sometimes it's just overwhelming too much Too much. But I think probably what I don't do enough of, which I should probably do, is doing what you and I are doing. Hence the title of your podcast. Yes. Because I think there's something about the act of talking, I think, takes teaspoons of pain out and it never goes back.

21:19i don't think it ever returns i do it's a teaspoon but it it's something yes and so the more you talk and process and let go of and i remember when i was young reading somewhere that so much of life is about letting go and i got really cross at that um i think no it's not it's but it is learning to let go yes but we're learning through as you mentioned through conversation yes we are through connection yes but what we also know unfortunately for men in particular that our social circles shrink yes they do so as we all get i mean for everyone our social circles shrink when we get older but it's disproportionate for men yes it is yes it really is yes i read that really recently as well that the statistics are alarming and since covid they've got worse yes

22:16and a good friend of mine the other day who is so able and capable and bright and you know to anyone looking on the surface he has everything he just called me up and then i said how you doing he said i'm really lonely

22:34do you get lonely and i said yeah i do get lonely he said well let's work at not being lonely then and it it struck me and i thought you know it's something that does take effort yes that these default relationships because you're around someone and therefore you don't have to make the effort. There's a different thing. But so many men, they think someone dies, they move away, this happens, this happens. And people, you know, the ground gets thinner humanly. So you need to choose friends and fight for them. Work at it and have the courage. Ever since he said that, I thought, whoa, that was a courageous thing to say.

23:24And my biggest struggle, you know, is the idea that I can love myself and my neighbor.

23:36I can't do that very well. That's what the journey of this has been all about, is how do you see yourself? How do you hold yourself? How do you value yourself? How do you not throw yourself away in situations? how do you keep believing that you're enough that you're worth it I think if you can somehow be grateful for any situation you're in it's a good thing and not beat ourselves up because I'm a great one for that you know in this second book there's a line where I say you'll have critics make sure you're not one of them because I can be you know like you know here i'm talking to you and i'm trying to give my best side but you know i can get home and go oh charlie why did you say that right what are you doing we think you know and look at you your genes why get some new genes and i don't know it's like like don't yeah don't be that critic don't be that critic don't be that give yourself a break give yourself some grace like this is so poetic because so every morning I do and I've done this now for almost seven years but I try to do it consistently is a gratitude exercise do you so I identify three things from the previous day that I'm thankful for and I'm going to tell you Charlie every morning boom pop up sometimes I have three sometimes I'm five six seven this morning I don't know what it was I was struggling I was struggling I was thinking oh my gosh what am I thankful for yesterday like what was it what was it and I ended on I got through it wow you know I'm here right there you go you know right but it's it's it's the basics yeah it is the I'm breathing there you go exactly I'm alive yes i can move the basics the basics and you know what that exercise has done for me is it's now almost rewired my mind to look for oh wow the moments in the day really so that the next the following morning i can now recall that okay so you you you can they're logged they're lodged in you yes recognized and and that wasn't the intention but that's what's happened which i find to be beautiful so tomorrow morning i'll probably i will most likely say just having that conversation with charlie i'm thankful yeah well right now i'm utterly grateful for what i'm what i'm scared of is going home going why did you talk about that and what really that's the critic and i need to go you just sit down because i'm going to be grateful now for getting there finding Paul's studio having the courage to go in the door find out he's a spectacular human not screwing up too much in what you said you know thank you thank you thank you thank you yes exactly we need to tell the critic to sit down just sit down a second because right now and anyone who's listening, you know, or watching and isn't too bored by this, just be aware that you're amazing and breathe and say thank you for being right here.

27:20And if you want to hear the full unfiltered stories from today's guest, you can check them out on the We Need to Talk page. Drop a like, leave a comment and hit subscribe. See you next week.

27:34Thank you.