The Shame That Silenced Me For 30 Years: Strictly’s Ore Oduba “I’m Sharing This To Save My Children”

31:33And I had designs of trying to conquer that place. You know, you talk about building that network. It had been something that I had been cultivating for a really long time as a young person. And I now see this big corporation. And I wanted to go, I want to bring that department into here. I want to work over there. I saw the opportunity. I always saw a way of kind of navigating to try to get somewhere because again, achievement was always the thing that was celebrated. I saw a way of appeasing what I needed from that. And also that excellence I knew was always going to be something that would filter back to, um, to my parents as, as, so I, I kind of craved it.

32:20I became a workaholic. You did. I believe this. I believe this. How did you navigate this specifically? Because this is what? This is the, what is it? We're talking about 2000s? I was a children's presenter from 2008 till 2013. Okay. So in this period, from what I hear specifically from so many guests who have been on We Need to Talk, is that the press was just in everyone's business. I mean, if you were on television, the press was in your business. You know, where I'm going with this is, did you feel an extra level of pressure to keep, should I say, to stay out of trouble, right? To not be noisy in order to maintain your job.

33:16It's a really interesting observation because, yes, 100%. And I think, you know, that was a part of our training. We knew what the responsibilities were. And I guess for someone like me, who was very disciplined, or certainly knew how to look disciplined, certainly knew how to create that straight down the line persona, you know, that wasn't hard for me to do. But of course, yeah, you are, you're a young person, then you want to have fun, you want to drink, you want to go out and, and, and I think absolutely. And it should be, you, you know, you, you are a role model to a lot of these children that you need to be, there's a level of responsibility that you have to uphold.

34:15Yes. But that, that idea of your life's our business, is something that I only really felt after Strictly come dancing. That's when that became real. Throughout that series and then in the years immediately after. That's something I wasn't prepared for. Wow. I had no clue how large the viewership was, how committed the audience was to Strictly. I had no clue until We Need to Talk. We've had various people who've been on Strictly on We Need to Talk. So I believe that when you were on Strictly, we're talking about over 13 million people watching. I think the peak audience that watched that final was over 13, maybe 14 million people.

35:06It's way over 50 % of the viewership. And you think that moment is crazy, because that will be 10 years ago next year. Look at that. That'll be 10 years ago. Look at that. And when I say your name, what people tell me is that they associate you with Newsround and Strictly. They're like, wasn't that the guy that went Strictly? Yeah, I know exactly who he is, right? So it's one of those where it was this moment in history, from what I understand, you always wanted to be a part of Strictly. Yeah. This was a dream of yours. This was. Which is interesting. That was a dream of yours. But now understanding how you came alive on stage, it makes sense to me.

35:53Yeah. And do you know what was so crazy? Because I had forgotten about that person, that Spice Girls performing kid. And it was only about halfway through that series that a light went off. And I went, oh my, oh my God. this is everything that used to bring me to life and it was visceral it was visceral because i approached that series going i really want to put in all of this industry and all of this work that i've ever loved and learned and and all of that you know trying to excel that i've been taught along with this show that i've adores you know You all know Bruce Forsyth. Yes, absolutely.

36:39Was anything that Bruce touched turned to gold. It was a huge hit. And from 18 years old, I wasn't bothered about Saturday nights going out and chasing girls. I wanted to watch that show that Bruce was hosting. And while I start working at the BBC, you know, on a Saturday, the whole building comes to life. You know, there's a buzz around, I always compare it to Wonka's factory. There's a buzz around, you know, the chimneys are smoking because there's life in that building now. And the audience is queuing around the corner. And I feel like a kid with my nose pressed up against the window. I want to be, I want to be in there.

37:23I don't know what happens in there, but I'd love to be in there. And everybody wants to be on Strictly. And I remember them giving me a call just to meet. And I thought, they know who I am. I'm nobody. This is wild. I might, in five years' time, I might have a chance to be on that show. And I remember going to that meeting and going, I mean, I'm going to tell them how obsessed I am with this show. I've been watching it at this point now for over 10 years. and every single winner, I remember that dance, I remember that score, I remember that moment when it went wrong on television. You were strictly super fan.

38:08I was a super fan and I did not hide it. And I thought, well, you know, maybe they'll pick up the phone in a couple of years' time, but I think I'd put my best foot forward and I didn't hide it. And two months later, I got the call. And I wasn't ready for what was going to happen. Of course, this wasn't planned, let alone being on the show. We had conversations, but being on the show was one thing. Going through that course for four months, like you said, in people's homes, in people's families, the affection and the connection they have to the show, how much it brings people's hearts alive. And I'm having this self discovery in the middle of going, oh, okay, hold on.

39:02This isn't just the show that I was a fan of. This is the person that had been dimmed for decades that is now starting to say, hello, I'm still here by the way. And so, you know, that series for me was an awakening. Because we just didn't want to go home, Paul. We knew we weren't the best pair, but we just weren't. We both, I was dancing with a world champion who had themselves from childhood had been working every second of their day to be at the very, very top. And that for me was like being given the Cristiano Ronaldo of the dance world. You've got the opportunity to get everything you need to be the very best that you can be.

39:53But this is Joanne. This is my beautiful Joanne. Yes. So Joanne was a world champion, right? You have to admit, you walked in not too bad. Well... Not too bad. After a couple of tequilas, Paul, everyone's not too bad. Not too bad. Okay, so not too bad. So what I want to know is, what made you feel like you and Joanne were the outsiders? I guess I was a nobody, Paul. I was achieving and I was enjoying my career at that point. But, you know, we're in a room full of people who've sold out arenas in the music industry. People who have prime time household name status on television. Who've come back from the Olympic Games with gold medals.

40:49and I'm going, I don't know why I'm here. I am so thrilled that I've been invited to be here. But I think, and I was told this actually, there was a moment in the first couple of weeks where we might have been dumped out. And I think about that and think, I wouldn't be sat here with you had a number of votes gone a different way. And my whole life might have hinged on that. Because it was only through winning that show that gave me the confidence to do some crazy stuff. And I guess what the audience saw is a transformation. because I did go from somebody that not many people knew who put heart, soul, tears into every step.

41:49And I look back at that series now and I think of the person that was, I still have people to this day come up to me and go, you cried a lot on telly, didn't you? And it's so fascinating, Paul, because this is only 2016. Now we are so desperate to find men, especially, comfortable with emotion. Yes. Visibly. If you rewind that person who always wanted to be that, always wanted to be validated for expressing themselves in a way that felt authentic to themselves, but never was. And you're getting the judges only heaping praise. That's kind of their job. They've got to be enthusiastic. They've got to try and help you along.

42:42But really seeing that here is someone who is falling in love with this incredible art form, really committing themselves and actually kind of turning into, maybe as far as I know, the person that they were always meant to be right before their very eyes. Yes. So for me to hear that from the people that I looked up to, having not had it, that was the inner child going, I'm getting the thing that I've always wanted. Yes, I could see it. Such an inflection point for you. Huge. Yeah. Huge. And again, it wasn't about winning. It really wasn't. I just thought, what an amazing opportunity. What an incredible opportunity to learn, to find out something about yourself.

43:33And this was a decade before my therapy journey. What an amazing opportunity to find something about yourself in an environment that is safe, that is uplifting, that is about learning, that it's about expression. Yes, you have got to put on show for 12 million people. But for six days of that week, you are going into a place that you never knew existed. And that, for anybody, is really the only moment that you start discovering who you really are. And that was happening right in front of people's eyes. And it was happening for me for the first time in my adult life. When you found out that you weren't, I saw the clip.

44:26But now that you can reflect back upon that moment, truly, how did you feel at that moment?

44:37Utter disbelief. Because you kind of, if you have had those moments where you know, and I know you're a very present person, but sometimes things happen to you that you're, something lives. and you're able to have this kind of bird's eye view of what's actually happening. Yes. You leave yourself. That happened. I remember just trying, seeing Confetti and all of these amazing people that we'd been on this path and this journey with and kind of going, I think my life is changing and I don't know how it looks tomorrow. This is everything that I've ever dreamt of. I have to make it count. And I think had we not won it, I wouldn't have been brave enough to make a pivot.

45:39So what was the pivot and why? I remembered the kid that I was and I remembered that being on stage is somewhere where I came alive. And I thought, I don't know how, but I need to make that matter now. I need to go down that route. And as a winner of Strictly, those doors are open. It's up to you to keep them open. And so I started working. Okay. I started working. Okay. What were you doing? I went to the vocal coach. I went to a place called Pineapple Dance Studios. Pineapple Dance? You know it? Oh my gosh, I know pineapple. Is it? Louis? Louis. Louis Spence. Louis Spence. That's his place. There was a documentary about pineapple dance studios in the North Seas.

46:33A huge historical place of dance in the center of London. Yes. And bear in mind, I've just won the biggest dance show on the television. And now here you are in dance class. Yep. I went, I need to start from the bottom. And it was a really humbling experience, but one I knew I needed to take, of entering a dance class and being the worst one. But having been just told you're the best one. And I remember going into a theatre jazz class and there were 80-year-olds and eight-year-olds, mostly women, and going, I'm the worst here. I couldn't keep up, I couldn't dance a step. And it was terrifying.

47:20But I was, I was hell bent on putting myself in a position that allowed me to start from the beginning, to work up to a point of being capable again. Because it's very easy for someone like myself, a Strictly Winner to walk into and get an offer. And then to fall flat because you're not capable. Yes. And I knew as somebody wanted to build a career, that was something that I didn't want to happen. So at that point, your objective was, I'm going to now create a new career for myself. I've looked at this resume of yours on stage and it is extensive. And I had no idea, you know, how extensive of a stage career you have created.

48:11So would you say that this is your passion? And this is it. I think this is what I was always supposed to do. There's this wonderful quote that I always love returning back to that says, can you remember who you were before the world told you who you should be? And I finally remembered that person. And for a couple of decades, I was creating a version of the person that I thought I should be. But this creation of a perfect life, a hashtag couples goals, was what was winning. So you need to perpetuate that. So you felt as if you were perpetuating this facade. Oh, you have to. In order to stay relevant, it's what people are buying into, whether it's from a magazine or from a career point of view, as far as I understood, this was something that was, that was the thing that was getting celebrated.

49:22So that's what you need to pour into. Okay. But it was, it was, there were cracks. At what period in your life did you feel as if there was the most incongruence? so between the facade and what actually was happening where was the the the deepest divide what what what year roughly

49:55do you know i think there was a point and we all had to have a moment of reflection in lockdown We all did. We all did. Because everything stopped. Everything was kind of before lockdown and after lockdown. And you had to reflect on what was going on. And that was a point for me. And I had never knowingly suffered from an anxiety. But things started to get very loud. Internally. Now, at this time, at lockdown, you're married, two children. Yeah. Yeah. You have what the public perceives as not just a good life, but quite possibly a perfect life, right? Not too long from being on Winning Strictly, you have a staged career that's really starting to blossom.

50:56So the public, I can see that there is this feeling, this facade, right? And then there was what was actually happening. So when you look at what was actually happening, what was it? You're talking about this anxiety. Yeah. But what was happening to you in particular? I think a lot of the decisions that I made in my life, Paul,

51:23Were

51:26To please my father And I've had some people Some very wonderful close people to me Friends, family Who said I wonder if people are going to ask you Ori If you're okay Considering what you and your family have been through In the last couple of years

51:48nobody asked if i was okay

51:58and it all looked great did you have anyone that you felt as if you can talk to because this is this period where your marriage is is is breaking apart um but did you have anyone that that you could talk to no one. No. So you talked to no one? I talked to no one. I didn't feel capable of it. I didn't feel safe to do it. And I also thought that that voice needed to be silenced. I thought that it needed to be quietened down.

52:45You know, here's a version of me that had been kind of told to be put to the side. And it certainly built my life off of a projection. Yes. Paul's about to show you a presentation he made in Adobe Express. So you better be nice. You might not know this, but I am the proud co-owner of the mighty Sutton United Football Club. And this year, I had the honour of designing our Away Kit. First things first, Sutton Amber. Black, the crest, the fonts locked in with our sponsor, Adobe Express's brand kit. I was presenting to the board and the story I wanted to tell was that we're modern. We're sleek. Yes, we were founded in 1898, but we're still a club that belongs in 2025.

53:30I wanted everyone from a 10-year-old to a 90-year-old in the stands to say, I want that. All over Sutton United's script pattern. Mono crest, amber trim. I obsessed over the collar. Okay, Paul, are you ready? Yes! Yes! Yes! Look at that! Look at that! That is it! That is it! Yes. Got a pitch to make? Adobe Express is the quick, easy, and free app to create anything, like this presentation. All right, if you've made it this far, I know you're loving the conversation, so please do me one small favor, hit that bell icon, join our community. Thank you. What one thing, Orey, that we haven't touched upon yet, but because you've gone back, I'd love to address is the relationship with your siblings, if we could.

54:21Because that's clearly a massive part of who you are and your identity. And as a young boy growing up in a place where you felt like an outsider, I would assume that your siblings, your brother, your two sisters, that they were a place of refuge for you. That's such a nice way to put it. That's such a nice way to put it. Yeah. Four kids split right down the middle. Mom, dad, two boys, two girls. Six of us. But us four.

55:06There's only two of us left.

55:12And they were my best friends. You know, there's this idea that obviously all kids have the same parents and so in theory have the same upbringing, but not the same childhood. And we all experience the same thing.

55:35I lost my sister six months ago. And I have a brother I haven't seen for 20 years. We don't know if he's alive or dead.

55:51And I don't think it's a coincidence

55:56that most of us have pushed some big red buttons in our lives.

56:07Because that refuge that you spoke about, that safety that we felt amongst each other was the only place that we had. What can you tell us about the childhood in particular with your brother? Because from what I understand, your brother was your best friend when you were a little boy.

56:31I've never spoken about this, Paul. I think it's the one thing I haven't confronted. I've done a lot of confronting in my, in the last two years. I think when you lose your dad and your sister within 18 months, and go through a divorce in the middle of that, that's going to change your life. It has to. You could go one of two ways. You can fall away. or you can tool up and really start digging into why you feel like you do. And I feel like I had to do the latter. I had to find a way out. But the one thing that I haven't confronted is losing my brother. He had a psychotic episode and he had been a real achiever.

57:39I looked up to him so much. He was in all the stage productions. He was a really sporty guy and excelled at school.

57:54Seemingly out of nowhere He just fell off the track And I feel for my parents Because they had no idea what was going on How old were you? 16, 17 Good You know there were signs At school that he wasn't being friends with his friends And he was falling into a difficult crowd and some of the behaviour was changing.

58:25And as far as my poor parents, do you think just generationally and culturally?

58:34They don't have an understanding about what's going on. As far as what we were told as children, he started smoking cannabis. Well, that'll be it then. and after that he became psychotic i don't think that was what was really going on paul and when that behavior became violent and intimidating we had to put locks on the doors in our bedrooms because we didn't know what we were gonna, we didn't know what was gonna happen.

59:23But it was when we were under a threat when a knife was brought out into the living room and we were told he wasn't afraid to use it.

59:43That's when we had to leave. So me and my younger sister,

59:51we went to live with our closest friends. I'd just feel for that boy,

1:00:00because he needed help, but was a villain in our eyes and in the eyes of the family that were going to cause us harm. And so after that, I don't know what happened. But he was removed. And we don't know where he is.

1:00:25So the last time you saw your brother was, how old were you? Do you know what? There was one episode my dad tried to bring us all together. A few years later. and that didn't go very well. Okay. That was the last time, but maybe that one time since 2004. Okay. Once in 20-odd years. So you saw him once the last time in your teens and then a few years later you saw him. I just have to ask, so were there quite, I mean, do you know how he was removed? Who removed him? Where did he go? Do you have any of those answers? I was told he was in Manchester at one point.

1:01:18But other than that, no. Did he leave on his own? So many questions. I mean, it's crazy, Paul, because, you know, my dad died and there was a conversation we had to have with the family. We don't know where he is. He's got a right to know. We don't know how to contact him. And it's funny because I had lived this life in the public eye now for 15 years. Yes. We knew he'd know about me that if he wanted to. And at one point, it was the thing that I was most fearful of, that I was trying to create this life that would build walls so high that whenever he walked into it, I had the defense that he couldn't ruin this life.

1:02:13The one that I was hell-bent on creating, the one that was going to help me escape from that childhood, and I didn't want him to ruin it because it was everything that I needed to escape. That was my escape. It's funny because if he walked in today, I'd be ready to meet him. Come on, miss.

1:02:34Thank you.

1:02:39I don't think it's a coincidence that I find it quite hard to make male friendships.

1:02:51Because the ones that I looked up to left.

1:02:59And I don't think it's so coincidence that I feel quite intimidated in male company. Do you? Yeah.

1:03:11Yeah, the women in my life have always been the ones that I have looked to, the ones I felt safest with.

1:03:24The ones that have felt, made me feel most myself, the ones that made me feel safe. that's how it's magical this is this is the conflict these are the things that are going on in your in within you that you need to address yes because left on their own they're going to rip you apart and they had begun to rip me apart yes and i needed to start looking because Because my younger sister and I started to connect in their last few years. When they died, they left a goodbye letter for us before they took their life and told us all that they'd been living for the last year as non-binary. So respectfully, as far as I'm concerned, my sister Lola is they them.

1:04:26And that was a discovery for you for the last year. You were not under that impression. My sister had been struggling...

1:04:40pretty much their whole life. Oh, wow. Struggling to understand who they were, struggling to fit in, struggling to understand why they had such a conflict with the person they wanted to be, but the person they felt oppressed as. And this went all the way into their adulthood. And we began to connect again after lockdown, interestingly enough. Okay.

1:05:15And we both spoke about how low we were feeling. I reached the point where I believed that everybody would be better off if I wasn't here. Because I was doing, or I thought I was doing everything I could to be what everybody needed me to be. But it still wasn't enough. I couldn't be anymore. And so I thought in that mind that I must be the problem. And my sister felt, through different means, but felt the same way. So when I think about us having that conversation, and I think about the way they went, and how I found a way out. You know what is striking me is how your sister was fighting fighting against...

1:06:22It's that incongruence again. Right. Your sister has an identity of themself, which is different from how society and others have an expectation of them showing up. Yeah. It feels as if this has been your struggle. This has been your fight throughout your life. Yeah. So when you think about you freeing yourself and truly living out your identity, opposed to what society has been telling you it should be, what is it exactly? I saw this wonderful quote from Lena Waithe recently, who talked about a lot of people see queerness as a sexual orientation, but that actually it's a non-conformity. A non-conformity to society's rules.

1:07:24By the way, you're quoting all the greats. These are exceptional people to quote from. They just, but it's such a learning because rules to be yourself, what rules? You've only got one life. Yes. And for some people, my sister's case, they died because they couldn't live that life. because they couldn't put these conflicts of trying to be who they were and it being squashed and being trodden on and being down degraded. I remember going to therapy for the first time a few years ago. It was January 2023.

1:08:14I'd started to get anxiety attacks. To go along with all of this internal stuff. Yes, it was starting to become external. There were patterns of behavior that looked very generational, that were everything that I did not want to be like. I'm talking about my dad. That I started seeing playing out with me and my own children. I was like, that's always the thing I said I'm never going to do.

1:08:49So I remember speaking to my therapist for the first time and saying, and them asking me, what do you want out of these sessions? And I said, I just want to find peace. I want to know why I feel so torn. And it was, again, no coincidence that much of what we discussed was my childhood and my father. Yes. And so it's only when my dad died that I realized, and I remember going back to, I always said I don't think I'll ever go back to Nigeria until he's gone. That was at 15. That was the last trip we made. At 50? I'm now 37. And I remember going back, feeling those same feelings on the plane, feeling seen amongst people that look like me, but getting off that plane and going, I feel like a 15 year old.

1:10:01What was so unbelievable was now as a 37 year old parent of my own, two children. I remember walking back into that house where there had been so much pain

1:10:23and it felt viscerally poor like I was holding the hand of the 15 year old me and now with different eyes and going you don't have to be afraid anymore

1:10:42And it was like, well, I felt the lift. Because I could walk through those corridors and those rooms of that kid who felt so oppressed. And I could exercise those demons. Finally. Yes. I loved my dad. He did so much for us. But I didn't shed a single tear.

1:11:19It was like I felt free.

1:11:26For the first time,

1:11:32he didn't have a hold on me anymore. And it's crazy, because if you don't mind me quoting another great Oprah, your friend. Yes, yes. You know, it's very hard for a lot of people who are grieving to think that they won't have those people in their lives materially in physical form anymore. That they feel rudderless. They feel the sense of loss and being lost. that sometimes you can actually create a better relationship with them when they're gone and it seems as if you're you're still navigating what that relationship feels like to you with your father who has passed but you're navigating that to this to this moment yeah yeah i realized i I realized after that I had been in fear of him my entire life, even nearly 40.

1:12:33I remember one of the last times I saw him, I tried to have a confrontation with him about wearing shoes in the house, in my house. I thought, I'm gonna put my foot down, this is my house now. Man, I reverted to being 12 years old all over again. This man was in his late 80s. But I remember getting the news five minutes before going on stage.

1:13:04We had been told maybe a week before that he wasn't very well. At the time, we didn't have the greatest relationship, me and my mum. But I knew something needed to be said, because she wouldn't call me on a Saturday night.

1:13:23And I love my mum, but this is so her. She had some news to share with us, but she couldn't get through to me. So naturally, she's very close to her family as well. So she told some of her sisters that my father had died.

1:13:40Out of love, care and consideration, I received a text message. Oh, wow.

1:13:49I'm so sorry to hear about your dad

1:13:54I put the phone down And I had to go on stage to sing

1:14:05It's crazy because the character that I was playing was called Happy Man

1:14:20And I knew that day that the world that I had understood before was over. And I had to do what I had to do. It was on my mind the whole time. This has been your story of having to do what you have to do, even though there's so many, not necessarily conflicting thoughts, but thoughts happening that are contrary to how you're expected to show up in the environment. Please help me, Paul. Is it kintsugi? What's that Japanese art form of bringing broken pottery together? Oh, wow. I wish I knew. I should call it a mosaic. and lining it with gold. There's that Japanese art form. I'm like, I am a sum of so many broken parts.

1:15:18And I am in a period personally of re-addressing and re-parenting all of those moments that I, now with the awareness that I have, with the self-awareness that I have of who I am, in being able to go, that was you. validate that experience that was your childhood. Yes. So when you think about the traumatic experiences that you have run away from, we've talked about obviously what was happening in the household among your family. Are there any other traumatic experiences that you were running from? It's something that I was really keen to bring to this conversation to talk to you about Because it was only as a result of all of these awakenings

1:16:19That a year and a half ago I was able to escape An addiction That had dogged me for nearly 30 years So going back to your, what, less than, what is it, eight, seven, seven, eight, nine, nine, okay. That's when my addiction started, Paul. When I was introduced for the first time to pornography. At nine? Yeah. And I think, after everything that's happened, only understanding how much of a thread that had been throughout my life, was I was finally able to escape it. because I know it had been dogging me. It had been destroying my life from the inside out. But it was the thing that from a very early age was what I was running to as a response to a lot of the trauma.

1:17:42Okay. So at nine years old, You're introduced to adult content. Yeah. By whom? And what do you remember as your reaction to it?

1:18:03It's very innocuous. A friend's older brother. And this was 30 years ago at a time when we didn't have the accessibility that we do now. I was just shown some adult images on the computer and I remember being very intrigued

1:18:28and a feeling of eyes being opened.

1:18:35And whilst I wouldn't say addiction set in immediately, the intrigue started immediately. And it didn't take long, relatively speaking, for that intrigue to start running my mind over. Because at nine, at that age, you haven't necessarily got full access. You know, this is dial up at the time. This is the nineties. And, um, and

1:19:08wanting to find a way to address that intrigue, wanting to find ways of that awakening, wanting to replicate it or find it, whether it is on television or in magazines. Okay. And so

1:19:30There was a period, there was a point at, I think I was 10 years old,

1:19:42when one of my siblings was reprimanded for smoking at school. That punishment found its way back to my father, who told us, he didn't tell us immediately actually, He waited until we got back to Nigeria for him to then deliver his understanding of what had happened. And there was a shame on the family now. And we were told in no uncertain terms that should something like this happen again, we will be removed from the UK. We'll be removed from school. We won't see our friends. And we'll be educated and raised in Nigeria under his rule and under his roof. For a nine, ten-year-old, that is life over as you know it, yes.

1:20:46And so you have a choice.

1:20:54Or certainly The only way you can defend against that Is doing absolutely everything that you need to do to be safe To not let that happen But I had already started this

1:21:13Feeling These behaviours And I knew that I can't let that out that can't be shared because we know what happens and so I became a master masker I had to keep it quiet this is the problem with this form of addiction that even I could understand at 10 shameful it's so shameful we can't talk about it because there is a perceived nature to it that is everything that we hate everything that we despise as a kid and while you were a child the majority of people are introduced to adult content between the ages of what 12, 13, 14. So you were in close to the age, but still younger than the average. But what I find so interesting about what you're saying is that at 10, you already felt the shame come over you.

1:22:35Whenever I think about addiction, I always think about different pieces that make up an addiction. Shame being one, loss of connection with people as a result of it yeah compulsion yeah having the need to to do it right you almost can't stop yourself yeah did you feel all three of those yeah you did at 10 eventually okay eventually eventually okay eventually i think i think

1:23:08i think having been introduced at that age and you know what the reason why i come to talk to about this now, Paul, is that this has now been brought to an attention for all of us. There was a report in July in the Children's Commissioner that told us that children as young as six now are being exposed to explicit adult content. That actually there's research that 13, but as young as 11 could be the average age that children are being introduced to it. Look at that. most of it is on social media.

1:23:48And 60%, this is all in the report, is by accident. And I think of the world that we have now at our fingertips versus the one where, you know, we grew up at a time, we might have been the last generation, where there was a little bit of a separation. This stuff was at a top shelf. You did have to find a way online. But we have this in our hands and in our pockets now And when I escaped the addiction myself I was prepared to tool myself up in a way that I could guide my own children Around a topic that I knew had given me so much

1:24:37Conflict Because at that age I didn't want to find those images But as a way, like you say, of addiction And I'm looking at the picture of Gabor Mati over there Who we talked about before this conversation And learning about his work has changed my life And when I understand what he defines as addiction any behavior repeated that gives that temporary relief or pleasure from something that we are escaping in a way to emotionally regulate ourselves often because of a trauma that is going to give us long-term negative consequences like that wasn't something I chose And it took me 30 years to understand that I was returning to a behavior that I was so conflicted with.

1:25:46What happens is this kind of conflict between real and the virtual, where as a young person, you are watching content in this. So much research that is rewiring your natural neurological pathway. that as a young person that is making you question what you know to be acceptable

1:26:30and left to its own devices left unguided left undiagnosed and neglected

1:26:43I can talk for myself as a young person, having been exposed to those images at nine years old, before the age of consent, seven years of exposure to this kind of explicit imagery. Having had those dopamine hits, those surges in synapses and creating a socio-sexual mapping in your brain that you understand to be, to have some truth. I know if we leave that the way things are going, it's going to cause

1:27:29an epidemic of problems for our young people because we're already seeing it happen now yes or how did so so i'm very curious now is how did that seven years if you will of rewiring of your brain how did that begin to manifest itself and show up when you were in your mid-teens and then in your 20s and then in your 30s?

1:28:00Well, like any addiction, it's something that is, you have to live two lives. You have the one that you're happy to show up in and the one that you return to in many ways to feel anything

1:28:25whether it's sadness or depression or loneliness or rejection or happiness it becomes a friend I already said the people that I loved most in my life were the women in my life the ones that stayed but what you're seeing is so conflicting to that. The battle that I was facing didn't become so overwhelming that it took over for what I need to be true. I had two sisters, a mother that I loved. I knew I couldn't share this with them because I knew it was so conflicting to the people that were most important to me. And so I have to, without knowing that I'm falling into find a way to hide it. And it's very isolating.

1:29:21Again, it was something that I was just knew to be me. Just a part of you. Just a part of me. Something that I would always go to, to feel. If you ever felt worthless, if you ever felt rejected, it was always a thing. and it's mad talking to you about this. Now I never imagined I would ever share this with anyone. But in the last year, as I've spoken to friends and family and so many amazing supportive people in my working world who have all shown so much love and

1:30:09pride in me talking about something that is a problem for so many of us. You know, I've been speaking to a number of people.

1:30:22And whilst the reason that I felt like I needed to speak about this is because I wanted to be able to guide my own children when it comes to it. When it comes to them seeing stuff that is going to be there, they're going to, they're going to come across it. And like so many of life's pitfalls, but it's drugs, money. So many of life's pitfalls. It's something that I knew I needed to address. But when I saw what was happening from a societal level and this report came out about other children, I thought I can't, you know, when I said about in 10 years time, yes, I can't keep quiet about what I suffered, went through and escaped only to save my children and see what is happening from the prevalence level societally, I keep it to myself and 10 years later, see something that another 12 year old might have fallen into and is now 22 and has been their life and not speak up about it.

1:31:25And in many ways, I was so scared about bringing this to the table today because I know it's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable. Talks about not living life by society's rules. And that's exactly where I was going to go is, why do you believe you telling your truth will make so many people uncomfortable?

1:31:46This is, I believe, one of the biggest problems we have societally. There is such a prevalence. and I know that nobody certainly nobody in my position would ever think it wild enough to bring it to the table because of the perception because of the risk of reputation because of the risk of

1:32:20life as they know it being over but I knew I had to do this today because Paul, this is me putting my life as it is on the line to save my children and to guide anybody else's children going into a world where at their fingertips they can fall into something that they never asked to. When we hear that 60 % of children are finding it accidentally, that it's cropping up on iPads, that societally, it's just so normal. It is. You know, my youngest, who's 11, but when he was 10, was sent a message in a group chat. Another friend of his just sent a message. Yeah. 10. Yeah. Exposed. That's it. Yes. And if we leave it, what's going to happen is these children start self-educating.

1:33:30Because it's too sensitive to touch. We know they're kind of doing it, but we don't want to discuss it. So what happens is these children are going to start sharing it between themselves. You're right. Most of it happens on social media. On social media. 80%. You know, and to your point of we don't want to discuss, this is what blows my mind. But also I can understand. When I say understand, because talking to people, a UK study found that 20 % of parents thought that children should never be taught about adult content. Right. So they're saying, don't even talk about it. Just shh. Let's pretend it's not happening.

1:34:16Wow. Isn't that something? I think when you understand, you know, I was that kid, there is an aptitude for children to want to do the thing that they're told not to do, to find a way around. And there was an online safety bill passed earlier this year that set in these age restrictions for online content on internet browsers that you have to be 18 and you've got to age verify or it might be ai or you might have to put a mobile right um check-in at the same time the vpn rates went through the roof absolutely to avoid to avoid yeah and by the way you search how to get around online restrictions and the internet will tell you how and i felt so sad because I knew that most people would think that was the issue solved.

1:35:21That there was almost, I don't have to talk about it now. We don't have to discuss because it's been sorted out for us.

1:35:32But there is such a prevalence in about it within an adult world. But you mentioned about sharing on WhatsApp. Yes. I watched adolescence recently. And that film changed the conversation about what it means to be a young boy, to be an angry or lost or broken young boy. I spoke with Ashley Walters before, earlier this year, and asked him about how much of an issue, and that Ashley was such a kind friend to allow me to bring this up, that he and the team understand this to be one of the catalysts to a lack of meaning that a lot of boys have in their life because it's expected of them. And so they're going to discover this stuff.

1:36:29All children are going to discover this stuff because it just exists. And the longer we leave it untouched, the more we're allowing these children to discover it themselves and educate themselves from a reference point that we know isn't going to serve them or serve anybody else going forward. I've just read and learned so much from so many amazing people. Jason Wilson. Yes, yes. He wrote this book, The Man the Moment Demands, and he does such amazing work for young boys. He said this thing that really struck me, that...

1:37:09We can't let children just be. It's too dangerous. We can't let them.

1:37:25Figure it out themselves.

1:37:31Because left to their own devices. You know the book Lord of the Flies. When all the children land on the island. Absolutely. Absolutely. And chaos ensues because in that world of unrestricted adult content, Jason says this, what are we prepared to live with? Are we prepared to receive a call?

1:37:59That our children have been struggling with something so much that it did something to harm themselves or someone else. Yes. And that's what I wanted to ask you, the stakes, so that everyone understands fully what we are contending with. So when you even think about your experience, how did this addiction impact you emotionally, but then also your relationships? In many ways, Paul, it was the first relationship I ever had.

1:38:31It was a thread. it was always a thing that I returned to. It was always the thing that I felt. You can't be rejected. You can't be rejected. And as I think about myself as a young person, like I said, I had these places to feel alive. I had my sport and I had my stage and thank goodness, because if I didn't, where's the hope? In those moments, I felt hopeless. I felt so worthless. I felt like I was disgusting. I felt like there was a shame that no one could ever know about me, about something that I fell into. And now is a crutch that I'm hanging on throughout my life. And And I'm so grateful for my upbringing, for the women who have shaped me, brought me up.

1:39:44Because I see this conflict left to its own devices. you start seeing that virtual world as your reality. It becomes an adaptation that you see as your own truth, as your own personality. And let me tell you this as well, Paul, there was something that I have watched change in this 30 years about this content. The commissioner's report told us that it is normal for this content to be violent. It's normal for children to see violent adult content Everybody I've spoken to wants that to be different But what I have watched over 30 years Let alone going from analogue in magazines to VHS to DVD To online into smartphones And I am not the person to want to speak for or against the industry this is just the experience of what I've watched.

1:40:51There has been a shift in what is acceptable. And it's so important to know that what we might think about these images, it's worse. What is out there? It used to be hidden behind a search engine or something. Now it's there. it's on social media 45 of it is found on twitter by the way really yeah oh my goodness okay there are so many there's so much information about how more people watch adult images than netflix and amazon combined this is something that is something so normalized amongst us but we don't want to deal with we don't want to talk about the connotations about what it means for us Right.

1:41:41What it means for the diet that our children are living through. So what should parents be telling their children? And then for anyone who is an adult struggling with this addiction, what would you suggest to them? For the adult with the addiction, and I think this from that individual, but also societally, that we cannot change the behavior until we admit what's happening.

1:42:19And this has happened in so many other of life's pitfalls, whether it is drink or drugs or food disorders. We brought these things that used to be incredibly taboo to the table and it's allowed people to understand that there is a problem. and for that individual the only way you can start healing is admitting and understanding that there is a problem and for me finally it took me 30 years two deaths and a divorce to finally go here's what's happening it doesn't have to be like that for everybody And when I started sharing this burden with my friends The people that I thought, my family Before I spoke to you Paul My mum, who at 40 Was finally able to have the conversation I wanted to have when I was 14 The people that love you Will support you And that there is nothing to be ashamed of That you're not alone Yes that there are so many people going through the same thing.

1:43:32And when my therapist told me that, everything changed. I was finally able to find the strength to create lasting change. Because there is this gap in addiction where you think that there's no purpose. you have to find a reason to not. And left on its own, there's no reason because it's the thing that gives you the escape, it gives you the pleasure, it gives you the relief, which makes sense. I think for parents, I think for parents, I just want to change the conversation around it, Paul. I really want to give other caregivers and parents the opportunity to lean into the difficult conversation.

1:44:28Because I think about that traditional idea of sex education, that right now kids are being educated at 14 at school. In my case, I've had five years of exposure to a world that nobody is discussing. It's outdated. Well said. It's this common theme I've seen among having stronger relationships, whether it's romantic, whether it's family, whether it's social, whether it's professional, it's always about the willingness to have the hard conversations, the willingness to be inconvenient. And to your point about Jason, is to inconvenience yourself. But also what you just said was beautiful is that is, that if you are struggling with this addiction, there are people who love you, who will always love you.

1:45:20They'll love you through the battle and they will battle with you. Ori, I have a surprise for you. You do? So I'm going to play this and hopefully you can hear it. Where do I even start? You probably don't even know because you're always so nice and you say that, you know, I taught you to dance. But it's the other way around. You've changed my life and I'm now doing the things that I'm doing because I danced with you. And the things that you taught me, how to be grateful for the situations that you're in and that you find yourself. Because maybe at that point in my dance career, you know, I'd done the competition world.

1:46:01But you were so grateful to be on the show. And that was why you put your heart and soul into every step and into every rehearsal that we did. and I'm telling you now, your wonderful sister and your father are looking down and are being so flipping proud of you. Like, I remember your dad used to cut out every single little clipping of anything that you did and I'm telling you now, he's still doing it. He's still doing it up there. Every little newspaper clipping, every little interview or anything that you do, he's still making a little mood board, a little thing all about your little scrapbook all up there.

1:46:45I'm so proud of you and what you're doing for yourself and for others. And I'll just leave you with this. Wanna change the world? There's nothing to me. I love you.

1:47:06That woman changed my life and she changed the course of it. And you know what? I love you, Joanne. Thank you. One, let me say, this is Joanne Clifton, your Strictly partner. That was one of the most beautiful messages I've ever heard. And how she so perfectly articulated your life and what you stand for. And she ended exactly with what you've said with so many people who are struggling. And that is, the people who love you will love you regardless. They will love you regardless. I have another surprise for you. Quick one. Go on. Good one. You're full of them today. Full of them have to. You're here.

1:47:49You're here. Lovely for that, man. So this is a photo. I would love for you to look at this photo and just tell me, how do you feel looking at the photo? What feeling comes over you? Okay? Okay.

1:48:17That's my mom. That's your mom? And who's that with your mom? That is one-year-old me. That's one-year-old Ori. I was with her yesterday.

1:48:32She is the most incredible, strong, guiding force of nature. I think for me to believe that the kid that I was was so worthless Was so, would be so dismissed by the person that loved me the most To finally understand after swimming through a river of pain That they accept me For who I am

1:49:13and all my broken bits.

1:49:18That's the biggest blessing. And so I cherish every moment I have. I don't know how long I've got. We don't know how long we've got with these people. But we have to show up as ourselves. And only when we accept ourselves can we allow other people to accept who we are. Yes. And that's when you start living the best life. Yes, yes. I can see the unconditional love that you have for your mother. I can see what she means to you. I can see that you have a totally different understanding and perspective of the life that she lived. It's almost like you've extended grace. I mean. Because you didn't. Yeah, you had no idea of the circumstances that she was going through.

1:50:05No idea. Yeah. And we've had, you know, we, we talked about the fact that we will never understand each other's lives. We will never, I cannot understand how this woman lived through what she lived through from what I saw, let alone what happened before it. And it was only because of what we lost that I want. I want to change that. Yes. It's not the person. We can change the behavior. and in changing that behavior and coming to my mom and saying, this is who I am. Yes. I want you to love me as I am. You're my mom.

1:50:50And everything started to change. And we have the, I could tell her everything. I've told her, I've told her everything. Everything. Stuff I want to talk about at 16, 17 years old. See, I think that is so beautiful. You think about this woman culturally as an age, from a religious perspective, this is not someone that you can, I can finally come to stuff with my mum and go, and do you know what she does, Paul? She doesn't understand everything that I'm saying, but she listens. There you go. She hears me. There you go. So to me, that is the most profound way to show love, is to hold space for someone's truth.

1:51:35And you don't have to fully understand it all, but you have to ensure that that person knows you're not going anywhere. Yeah. And your mom is not going anywhere. I hope so. She's not going anywhere, right? She's got you. She's got you. So everyone gets the last question. The question is, out of all of the conversations that you've had throughout your life, which one is the most memorable and who was it with and what did you learn? I've had so many. I know. I've had so many. but I've got to say having the chance to speak to my sister

1:52:25about who they were about the struggles that they had lived through but through all of that pain and suffering that they were able to find so much life in themselves and in other people and in so many ways Paul

1:52:51I wish my sister could meet this guy because I would not be here if it wasn't for them and whilst it's too late for that it's not too late for the rest of us and And I just know that none of this matters because it could all be over tomorrow. And so what are we going to do?

1:53:26We have to step into ourselves. Your story reminds me of what I believe is perhaps one of the biggest issues that we have as a society. And that is oftentimes people talk about cognitive dissonance, this whole notion of we believe that we value a certain thing, believe a certain thing, but we show up differently. There's an incongruence of who we actually are and what we do and how we show up in the world. And this is what most of us face. But there was a psychologist, Carl Rogers, who talked about the way to get to the highest level of happiness and wellness. And you know what way that is? You know what path that is?

1:54:21Congruence. Right. Which is knowing exactly what you believe and what you value and showing up in that exact way. Yeah. And what I feel for you, especially in this moment, is now after this conversation, what you've shared, you are living lockstep in congruence. So let me tell you, life can only get better. I hope so. It can only get better for you because you were fully living in your truth. And that is all we can, any of us can ask for. And so I want to say for me, not only am I incredibly proud of you, not only do I believe what you've just said will change lives, but I believe your sister, Lola, I believe your father watching down on you.

1:55:21I believe that he's proud as well. And I believe they are proud as well. And I think you need to take that. Because what Joanne said about how he was clipping the articles, I said, no, that man loved his son. Yeah, I know. That man loved his son. I appreciate that, man. I appreciate it. I am. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Here we go. More Aduba. Ore and his sister Lola both were struggling with living their true self and their truth. And Ore, I think, did a great job of pointing back to their childhood as one of the reasons for that struggle. And he really painted this picture on how he learned very early to mask and become someone who he wasn't, but who would be easily accepted in society.

1:56:28And that duality is something that I believe many of us struggle with. When I think about love, love begins with curiosity and not judgment. And I would hope that everyone views what Ore just said with curiosity and not judgment. And curiosity requires us to look beneath the surface. It's important to understand that addictions are mental health challenges. And categorically, we should look at them this way, which means that no addiction deserves to be prioritized. It's ultimately about what the addiction is doing to you. I can't imagine how you negotiate that. Here's the public-facing self that you know is a fabrication, and then you have your private self that you are ashamed of.

1:57:36it's no it's no way to live 30 years it's no way to live your life and at the very end of our conversation he did mention how he felt lighter he is unsure of what the world holds for him but he's more sure of how he is going to show up in the world and that's the position that he's been fighting for his entire life. So I'm so proud that he's arrived at this place today.

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