This Is What They Made Me Do! We're Talking Women in the Music Industry

0:00At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Hello and welcome to We're Talking. The music industry can be dazzling, but behind the spotlight, it's often a battle to be seen, heard, and respected. In this episode, Estelle, Mylene Klass, and Cher Lloyd open up about the realities of being women in music. from breaking through the noise to surviving the pressure and reclaiming their voices along the way.

0:52Being a woman in the music industry, it's tough. Especially then, right? And I say especially then because it's tough now. I think, you know, we often hear people say, oh, you know, women are on the rise. Like women, yes, but we still live in a patriarchy. And you think 2010, you know, doing research for this, I went back and I looked at interviews. Some of the questions, not some, many of the questions that you got. It's like you would never have received those questions if you were a man. I wish I had a list of the things they used to ask me because they'd just be insane. Yeah, I mean, what are some of them that you were asked that you know would never be asked today?

1:42Off the top of my head? Oh, I'd have to put myself in that dark place again.

1:51Do you know what? I've gone blank. It's another place that you said... I do that. I do that. Yeah, I don't even want to go back there. I'm like, oh. Yeah. Because they used to ask me the most horrible questions. I never felt like it was about my talent. Yeah. Well, I tell you, from my observation, some of the questions that I saw that you would get, a lot was about you dating. Always. Yes. Always. So it wasn't, you know, what's the next album? What's the next song? Are you touring? It is, well, who are you with? who you with who you seeing yes you know we saw you pictured with this person are you guys hooking up i didn't care about men or boys at that time i did not care about men at all i was there to to be a star to have an opportunity to share my voice um yeah it was always questions like that towards the girls.

2:55The girls, yes. And it felt like there was this emphasis for the girls to be sexualized. Hugely. And I would imagine that there was enormous pressure on you. Yes, absolutely. Even at the tender age of 16 years old. Yeah. I'd be dressed in outfits that I don't feel were appropriate. That wasn't appropriate. I've always dressed a little bit masculine that's just how I always like to dress I like baggy clothes you know I love trainers chunky boots I'm not much of a heel person but some of the outfits that they've put forward for me to wear I'd be like my dad will go crazy if I wear that he will not be happy with that yes that's not appropriate I was a child but you're still being asked to do it and is the thought dress like this sell more albums or dress like this of course but that's been that way forever and it's still around now it's still around now I could tell you the craziest stories of the stuff that's been said to me or the things have been taken away because I refused to go and hook up with people.

4:16Like what? What's been taken away? I remember once while I lived in the US and I was promoting my album in the US. I walked into the record label at the time and they hadn't given me a promotional budget to promote this album. We've spent millions on this album But there's no budget to go get people to hear it. Right. So I walk in and I say, look, I really need some cash to try and push this record. Basically told no. But what I needed to do to make this record take off is hit some of the clubs and they'll find out where Bieber is. And I should go try and get with him. With Justin Bieber? Yes.

5:09Now this is going back years ago. Years ago. I was a teenager, but I was very much with my husband at that time. He was even stood in that office while I was told they weren't going to spend any money on the album, pushing the album, that I was to go hook up with someone mega famous and basically leech off the back of someone else's fame. was I not good enough? Was I not good enough to invest in that you would rather use me in that way? Yeah. You know, so this is not, to me, it's not, like, one is it's super bizarre, crazy, horrendous. Yeah. Doesn't feel far-fetched for the industry. No. But what seems wild is your husband was in the room.

6:03Yeah. They didn't care. In fact, I remember me and Craig were about to get married, and I was told by people on my team, do not let the label know, because they will do anything to stop this marriage. Because the way that they thought about me getting married is that once I'm married, I'm off the market. Okay. I hate that. I hate that because I'm not a singer because I want to sleep around. Right. And I want to be in different celebrity relationships. I met a guy when I was 17 and I'm married to him now, have been for the last 11 years. I had no intention of leeching onto males, male singers, to try and gain a career.

7:02I'm not interested. Yeah, it's, wow, the fact that they, like, I didn't even realize that they would be so direct about it. Yeah. I thought they would just maybe set it up, but they were saying, go do that. Were there other male singers they were saying, try to go after this person? It was whoever was hot at the time. So, for example, they said, go to the club, find Justin Bieber, go talk to him. Is the idea, we just need to get this photo of the two of you, or do you believe that they wanted something else? They wanted you to do something else. Well, it's that typical major label vibe. So not to put words in your mouth, but what I'm reading is you're saying it's easier for you to go have relationships.

7:46Of course. All types of relationships, whatever that may be. Yeah. And then that story seeks so much attention that it helps to boost your brand. Yeah, and that was the sentiment. That was it. That was the theory behind getting me to go and do that. It sounds like you're saying this happens, this is happening, and it happens over and over again. Oh, yeah. Of course. I've gone into labels where they've told me that my skirt's not short enough. As a teenager, literally a teenager, you need to show a little more skin. what do you mean show a bit more skin that's gross I'm not selling I'm selling music and I'm a human being you know like I don't, that feels gross

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9:42It just is an industry, as we are learning, that can attract any facet of society, any kind of character. There is no graded scheme of entry. You can have a mate who's like, oh, do you know what? My brother drives cars. And suddenly the next thing you know, he's the driver. Next thing you know, he's the tool manager. Suddenly you can work your way up in a very different manner. And you don't know, you know, no one's DBS checked. Nobody's, there's nothing. It's just, it's not like, hi, I'm a brain surgeon. I'll have a go. Right. It's a very different set of rules and operational skills. The music industry is the Wild West.

10:19Yes. Now, when did you first recognize it was the Wild West? Because I would imagine that when you enter the show, you're still somewhat guarded. You're very optimistic about what's going to happen. You don't know how large you're going to be. And then as the notoriety comes, that's when, should I say, leeches come. Oh, yeah. Right. But what was the first moment where you realized, oh, my God, what am I doing here? What's going on? What is this? I mean, there were so many of those epiphanies. It was just relentless. I think it was what the gloves came off when anyone could say anything they wanted to about your families.

11:02I found information where they were trying to find out about my family in the Philippines you know really digging deep and you are then answerable to all those people you have a responsibility so you're not now just singing pure and simple all three and a half minutes of it on stage and learning the dance routines you're now trying to look after your family there's people coming out that suddenly they need money I mean I never knew I had so much family It was suddenly like... Interesting. So people coming out the woodwork. Oh, yeah. The best friends that you hadn't spoken to. Everybody, you know.

11:41And it's a lot. It's a lot for young minds to deal with. Yes. On top of the constant scrutiny, the body image scrutiny, sexuality, who you're with, who you're not with, what you said, what you didn't say. So who do you trust at this time? Only each other. only each other I mean my hands are tied because there's so much I would love to say to you but obviously there was other forces at play as well with bone tappings and things but I guess you can read between the lines that the only time we can really be really safe is when we're just talking to each other but then you imagine five of us trauma bonded all going through the same thing all terrified that each other's secrets or family secrets or worries or woes.

12:33And sometimes those stories would be fake. Sometimes those stories would be planted. Sometimes those stories, yeah, are used to cover up something else. Like you never know what's true or what's not. Well, you've got to remember, no agent is a lone shark. All agents, you know, they might have other bands. So all you need to do if you really want to start getting into it is match up which agent has which bands and match up which person got protected. And suddenly it all starts to make sense. And then suddenly you start realizing, well, who is, who's playing what, which role. Yeah. So is it, did you feel protected during that time?

13:10We were not protected. We were not protected. We were almost bait, I would say. I've been screwed over by agents, managers, dodgy accountants. Can we talk about the end of the group before it disbanded? Yeah. Because one thing that I read is that, you know, there were moments where you were touring and, as you said, it's people, it's thousands upon thousands showing up, cheering you on. Yeah. But then there were moments towards the end where there weren't cheers all the time. No. No. I remember someone throwing chicken chow mein at me. That's how the racism came back in again on stage. Things like that.

13:46Yeah.

13:49or nobody showing up, no manager, no tour manager. I remember my brother, because he wasn't old enough to drive, getting on his bike to drop off a DAT tape so that we could perform. So the Greek could perform. I got told by my manager, because I said, the backdrop's really creased. What are we going to do? And he went, you're going to have to iron it. Have you ever seen how big a backdrop is? Literally, you're going to have to iron it. He's like, you're going to have to iron it. I'm like, where are you? Turned out he was where he shouldn't have been. So then I had a phone call from his wife. That's how hearsay ended.

14:22It fizzled. It just was left. It was just left to die. I closed down. I turned the lights out. Literally. I literally turned the lights out. And it was heartbreaking because at the time I didn't want it to end. We took a vote. Everything was about a vote. And I've made peace with it now because I realized that we're all kids. None of us were in control of it. But I didn't want it to end. but the vote was yes. And I remember walking into a meeting where one guy said, we've got 250 ,000 Easter eggs with your faces on them. What are we going to do? I was like, I don't know. Like, it was almost comical.

15:02I haven't got an answer as to what you're going to do with 250 ,000. But I can imagine, because if I'm on the receiving end now and I've put all my money into this group and they can't get their act together and I've invested all this money and Easter's on the way. But how does the group go on this demise so quickly? So I understand the pressure being placed. I understand that the agents are not consistent. I understand all of those aspects. But at the same time, it was like it was consistent hits. The debut album reached number one and sold over a million copies. So you were red hot. The group was red hot.

15:46How does it fall off so quickly? I think we just didn't have anyone who was solidifying us as a group. So at the time, it's the same old story, but it was major mismanagement. Because as a mom now, I know that you have to rally the troops. Yes. and if you've got people going off in different directions as a mom someone's got to bring you all back together and go right this is what we're doing this is when we're doing it what does the group need you're only as strong as the weakest performer person personality whatever's going on there with that person and in that moment you carry them and when I look back at what was going on we wouldn't we were not we were not a solid unit and we were not being encouraged to be either so if there was a cheeky booking here and there was a shoot here well if i'm the manager and i'm like well let's bring in the money i'd just send everyone out in one of these separate gigs and in so doing you then cause division in the ranks i see everyone had come from humble beginnings not one person in that band had some privileged upbringing and so that was taken advantage of And rather than seeing the power of the group, we were divided.

16:59I see. Can you disclose how much you made during that period? It's not a patch on one I make now because it was split between five, the band. Then it was split with the manager, six. Then it was split with the record company, seven. Then it was split with the TV company, eight. Then you bring in tax. I mean, all those people that were trying to take advantage of us. They did it with our time and our image, and they obviously took their cut. But we weren't making the amount of money that people think we were. I mean, we've just talked about a lot of challenging moments, right, in that 18 months.

17:38But I would imagine there were some incredible moments. Oh, Steve, we sang with Steve Wanda. Steve Wanda. We sang with Lionel Richie. Did you? We sang with Lionel Richie. Oh, my gosh. He walked out on stage and one of us cried and one of us, we were just, I was just, it's Lionel Richie. It's like, I played the piano for Shaka Khan. It's like, you know, all the things you dream of doing and then you're doing them. Yes. It's just magical. And that's what makes it worth it. What was the most, I mean, performing with Lionel Richie, playing for Shaka Khan. I mean, those are, those are up there. Was there anything that you think, this is like, this is what I will tell my grandchildren this moment?

18:20Okay, so the very first concert that I ever went to was my own, and it was at Wembley. So when I said, hello, Wembley, I couldn't even get the words out because it was just magic. And then this piano rises up from the floor, and I play the piano. Because I'm not, you know, I'm not naturally the best at anything. I know that. I get that about myself. It's fine. I'm very, very lucky. And with the luck and those opportunities that I've been able to line up, I've just carried on working through it, through the pain, through the hours. I'm a cart horse. I make up for those failings in being a cart horse.

19:02Interesting. So even in hearsay, you didn't find yourself to be particularly great. No. You just thought you were what? Really lucky. Really? Yeah. Yes. You didn't consider yourself talented? I think I have a talent for sure, but I'm very aware that there are incredible talents out there. But you didn't consider yourself talented? I think I have talent for sure, but all the things that I've done, when you put them all together, You know, I get to do so many jobs. You know, in one day I look at all the mixture of jobs. I never wanted an office job. I have friends who want the stability of it. And that to me is the thing that would suffocate me.

19:51I love difference. I get bored very quickly. I find it hard to be satisfied. And I get to do all of those things. And I still, maybe it's imposter syndrome, but I do still feel like, oh my God, this is incredible. I'm so lucky. That you're so lucky. this is interesting because uh i've asked a few times it sounds like you can't say the words that you felt as if you were talented you were lucky you were at the right place at the right time that's true all those things there's always an asian that can do better there is it's just it's true it is true but it's funny because when i meet other people who come along and they're often my producers who yeah i've written this song and but you did not find yourself you didn't you didn't believe that you were talented at that time in that group i didn't feel that i had the more popular attributes that the band had yeah like you know they were funnier than me they just had that sort of swagger that's not sort of it wasn't my background it wasn't no Did you at all feel like you were going through imposter syndrome?

21:03Yeah. I've got it every day. Every day? Yeah. On stage? God, I remember finding out what a tax write-off was, and I remember thinking most of hearsay was a tax write-off. I'm like, God, any minute they're going to just go, oops. They made a mistake? Yeah. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Mylene, really? Yes. When you reflect back and look at it, do you feel like you were did you deserve to be there looking back now I'm like I do think like god I was I was there yeah I definitely earned my stripes and I definitely did the time but at the time I remember thinking it was just it was so magical and so everything that I never dared to dream of I couldn't believe it wow okay uh just a few more in here say we'll move on yeah are you in touch with any of the band members today we do go through peaks and troughs and flurries for sure I mean it's 25 years ago so some more than others for sure I think it's almost a bit like an office it was like an office job from 25 years ago which is sad really because we went through so much so yeah of course we you know when big things happen we all chuckle in on each other okay will we ever have a hearsay reunion funny because i've learned now i keep on saying never say never but it's you never know now you never know well if i say no then this will be the this will be played out across the arena see i like already you said arena well i've got to think big i've got to i've got to put us there i've got to give us a running jump yes i like it so never say never there could be you never know i i before i would have been a definitive it's never going to happen i'm sure they would have been the same but i think as you get older you just realize you know you'll grow up and you just think who knows who knows what will be why we'll be in the same room again together or or for what reason but again i don't know i actually don't know yes yes so so i see 25 years coming up exactly and i mean nothing's planned but people are interested in the diaries people are interested in very interested in the diaries i think there must be some people very scared as well yeah i managed rightly so can you give us any taste of what you have in the diaries because I think that there will, to your point, there are people who will be scared.

23:45But in guarding those names, what's in the diaries? Everything. Everything. I mean, the lawyers saw the diaries and then they sort of redacted everything and then it was like just being given a black piece of paper with just three, four words sometimes. just they were like this is just libelous I'm not sitting here gatekeeping I just don't need to get sued by every 80s pop star that made a move on us or every manager that thinks they might be in there but you know the people that are being even now outed for their their behaviour yes nobody is shocked ever are they

24:49the uk then and even now is such a huge music market like in the research i was seeing it blew me away the u.s is the biggest market japan is the second biggest and then the uk is the third in terms of domestic markets around music. So the UK, huge market. Lots of genres popping off in the UK. Incredible artists popping off in the UK. But when I look back and when I read and research, it feels like black women in music, there has been the lowest of low ceilings placed. And we've had Jamelia on. When I look at careers like Miss Dynamite's career, And I think, well, one is, is this just me saying this?

25:37Or do you believe that there was a very low ceiling placed on black women in music in the UK? They just didn't expect us to do shit. And that's the frustration of it all, because we have very high expectations. And why not? The worthiness of my dreams is not based on anybody else's version of events. So when I'm shooting for the stars, I'm going to go get that. you know get out of the way it was always my thought if you if you're not the one get out of my way let me go find the person you know let me go find the thing or let me go get to the thing myself um but there was a lot of very much in your face like why are you even bothering i have people who and black people who thought who would actively say she's a waste of money and then be at the shows clapping for me at the mobos you know to my face two people around me And I was just like, you go away.

26:30Go sit down somewhere, but you're a waste of time. So it was a lot of like, don't even, you're not as good as, you're never gonna be as good as. And I saw it being leveled at the black women who were trying things. And I think I came in via hip hop. So I managed to dodge some of it. Interesting. But even when I got there, it was still a good amount of people like, why are you bothering? What's your plan here? You've done it with the 18th day. Now go sit down and go find something to do. And I was just like, well, I didn't start with you, so I'm for sure not listening to a thing you have to say.

27:05Yeah. Why was it so? I mean, I could come up with probably 50 different reasons, but you were in it. Like, why was it so? Why were people saying you're a waste of money? Why? I can't call it. I feel like it's self-hate to a degree. And I just, I don't know what anybody else has been through. And I don't like to call people's experiences shit, but I don't know. I just feel like it's very weird to discourage somebody from dreaming. It's very weird to do everything you can do to try and knock down their version of greatness. It's a very weird approach to have in life. But there are a lot of people who do it, I think.

27:46And also I think they do it to be seen as like cool and in the boys club or in the crew of people who are... you know, wherever they want to be in whatever department that they rep or whatever label they rep or whatever company they rep. And it's just wildly just, it's hate. It's just being a hater, essentially. I can't call why. I think there's just like a ceiling of like you've done enough, right, energy of like, that's okay, but don't go too much. Yes. You know that? Yes. I remember her name. She did that poem on the Beyonce album. She was like, They teach you to just do enough. Like, don't be too much.

28:26It's okay. Like, it's okay. Yeah, just stay at that level. Just stay at that level. Yeah. And I believed and lived the exact poem my whole life. Like, why? Like, why do I have to stay at your level? Who dictated that? Like, what's that got to do with me? Right. That's your business. Is this one of the reasons why, or should I say a main reason why you left? For sure. I saw well the main fundamental reason was I was signed to the US I was signed in the US okay after I asked the UK company to let me go because I believe in myself I signed to Atlantic US and I didn't think anything of it more than I was like well I guess I'm gonna have to be out there now you know when I was with my label in the UK it was a lot of support and equally a lot of like, okay, well, she's done it.

29:23You know, we gave it the shot. I think part of why they signed me was like staying cool and on the cusp. It's a business, I get it. You want to sign the hottest thing on the street. And at the time it was like, yeah, she's the name. And even as much as I was the name, it was like, I would go to the labels and they were like, we don't get it. And then I'd see demo for any other British female or anything. And I'd be like, that sound like my record. And they pop, they blow, and they big in the charts. So I'm like, I know I have something. I know I have something. So the opportunity came for me to learn the business.

29:57And I realized the route I took was so that I could have a clear blueprint for my own career. Okay. Being independent, knowing how to do it by myself. Knowing how to do everything from press up vinyl to organize an interview. Knowing how to go and get it played at radio. watching and seeing all of the things couldn't have happened if I had just signed straight to a label. Okay. And just, I had to go through all of that because I'm doing it now. You know, in my new album, I've been doing it for the past 12 years by myself. By myself. With my team. Yeah. But you're leading it. I'm leading it, yeah.

30:38But I could never have the confidence to do that if I hadn't did it back then because they kept saying no. And then when they finally said yes, and we had success, they still said no. I was just like, I'm sick of the nose.

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