This is Why Modern Dating Is Failing | Scott Galloway

27:03I think that there are seniors who have either through death or poor relationships have lost most human contact. And the idea of having an AI friend I think could be great for an 80-year-old living in an assisted living facility. I do think there's times when you're so upset. You think you have an STD. You don't want to talk to anybody. You don't want to go to the doctor. I think AI can help. These are my symptoms. And generally speaking, I do think AI presents enormous opportunities. I think it's a net good. The problem is with the word net. And that is we say, well, it's a net good, so there should be no regulation on it.

27:47There should be no synthetic relationships under the age of 18. Mostly the number one use of AI at work is therapy. Really? Yeah, people asking questions about their relationships and their insecurities. And I think there's a decent pushback that if you don't have a licensed therapist, these people aren't liable. So they're not being that careful about what they're telling them. I get that. I think there's a lot of benefits that could come out of AI. But pesticides and fossil fuels are a net good for the world. But we still have emission standards and an EPA. The problem with big tech is that people make a binary decision.

28:25It makes a lot of money. I love tracking my car on Uber. I want autonomous cars. I think it's great that we're putting rockets in space. I own their stocks. My 401k is up. Fine. There should still be a baseline level of regulation. There's more regulation in this chair than there is in big tech. They have been so good at overrunning and weaponizing D.C. There are more full-time lobbyists working for Washington, living in your hometown of D.C., than there are sitting U.S. senators. So more people trying to advocate for Amazon's interests and make sure there's no regulation than there are sitting U.S.

29:02senators. Basically, Washington has been overrun by big tech. They are very good at ensuring delaying and obfuscating any regulation. Meta has been the worst. It just came out that Meta has known for a long time about the psychological impacts of their platforms on teenagers, and they withheld that information. So there are, yeah, absolutely, there are a ton of opportunities for net positives. But again, that doesn't mean we shouldn't regulate it, especially for kids. Okay. Fair. Fair enough. Can we talk about friendship? Sure. This is an area that I have found, quite honestly, that I've struggled with.

29:38So I had a best friend who passed away about 2017. And since his passing, what I've noticed is that my social circle has shrunk, whereas my wife's social circle has actually increased. And I know that this is something that you write about and you advocate for, but they're male friendship. So what is the message that you believe we should be telling young boys about friendship and the importance of it? I think with boys, it's hard to tell them anything. I think you have to show them and you have to set them up for success. So get them out of the house. get them involved in group activities basically get them off screens so one in seven men can't name a single friend one in four men doesn't have a best friend oftentimes after friendship gets really hard in your 20s because before that and i'm parroting mel robbins before that you're in these community settings that sort of are conducive to friendships you're in school you're playing sports you're in college maybe and you're just around a lot of people and it's sort of it's not it's easy to make friends you sort of i joined a fraternity at the age of 17 i was living with three other guys you know you just kind of make friends your first job if you're in a city you have roommates then it gets harder because then all of a sudden you have to make an effort right you have to express platonic interest uh so it gets a little bit it just gets more difficult.

31:06Oftentimes, also, the reason why a romantic relationship is really beneficial for a man is as adult men, we tend to make friends or maintain our friendships through our romantic partnership. And then, I don't know about you, all my new friends now are the parents of my kids' friends. Exactly. Exactly. And as I get older, I'm just kind of more ready to, after a long day, watch Netflix, take an edible and hang out with my dogs. And the idea of trying to make friends with a man of my age just feels awkward. Yeah. But I try. But I put the question back to you. Why do you think you had trouble maintaining or making new friends?

31:48You know what I think it is? And this is the first time I'm actually thinking about this is that I feel as if this sounds so cold, but it is what it is, is that I feel like I don't want to invest my time. Don't want to invest my time because I invested all this time in this guy that's no longer here, you know, and I'm still hurt by it. You know, so I think, you know what I'll do? I'll go home. I'll watch Netflix. Right. Right. Instead of an edible for me, it's, it's a couple of beers. Yeah. Right. I will spend time with my wife's friends. I'll spend time with my colleagues. But for the most part, it's just me.

32:32And I think it's more so of that, almost that reluctance to invest because I don't know what the return will be. Yeah, I'll put forward a thesis. Just hearing you talk about it, it's sort of something bubbled up for me, if I'm really honest about why I said one, I have a big ego and I only want to hang out with people I find impressive. I'm embarrassed to say that, but I want someone who I feel is at my level. Also, I'm a bit insecure about revealing myself to new people because I feel like there's this image of me that I'm interesting and a great dad and a baller. And I worry that if I get to know people, they're going to figure out I'm a bit of an imposter.

33:19You know, I resonate with that. And it's like, I don't want to. They do these things in my school where they bid on dinner with somebody. Pick five or six people. And, you know, Arteta, the general manager of Arsenal, goes for like this crazy amount of money.

33:38Someone spent$27 ,000 to have dinner with me and four other couples. And it made me so freaked out because I'm like, I'm not that interesting. Their perception of me is that I'm worth$27 ,000 over dinner. I'm not. Maybe pick up the check if I can give you some good financial advice. But I'm not. It's just like I have this incredible imposter syndrome. It's like I don't fraternize with people in my work. They're mostly young people who I pay really well, who have a good living. and they're very impressed by me. Right. And I worry that if they were to see me, you know, drinking margaritas and out at night and like, I don't know, just who I am, their opinion of me is going to lower.

34:27You think so? So can we go there? Sure. Because I noticed this was, to me, this was a recurring theme in your book where you were very self-deprecating. This notion of, you know, I'm not the smartest guy. I'm not this. And I understand the grades didn't show that you were at the top. But the one thing that got me was when weren't you the equivalent of basically the valedictorian of your business school? No. The speaker, the commencement speaker. They chose me to be the commencement speaker. They chose you to be the commencement speaker. I'm not a humble person. But I think I'm self-aware. And that is, I mean, I'll give you an example.

35:06I think I'm a monster professionally. I'm talented. I'm hardworking. but my same talents, had I not been born in America, would have made me the second best Subaru salesman at Edinburgh, Subaru of Edinburgh, if I'd been born in Glasgow. I think in China I'd probably be in jail now because I have a difficult time holding my tongue, and I sometimes say provocative, stupid things. And in China that doesn't go down well. And I have a tendency to want to challenge authority. I think in Europe I would still be successful, but I wouldn't be nearly as successful because the economic growth just isn't here.

35:41So it's a mix of I'd have confidence in some areas. I have real insecurity in others like anybody else. But that was really meaningful for me when the students picked me to be the commencement speaker. It was really meaningful because my mom was in the audience. She was very sick at the time. I knew it would mean a lot to her. But a lot of that is not my fault. My dad could hold a room like no one's business. My dad walks into a room and a semicircle gathers around him. He's got the Scottish accent, the turn of phrase. He tells a joke and no one understands what he's saying because of this thick glass Swedish accent.

36:15But then he laughs uproariously and everyone just starts laughing. He has this gift. I inherited the ability. My superpower or my core competence is communication as is yours probably. Storytelling. Now, because I had a great education, I was able to develop those skills. I can write well. I've gotten huge opportunities. I speak in front of 180 kids twice a week when I'm teaching. so I get to refine those skills, where I credited my grit and my character for my success and the marketplace for my failures. And now I realize the smartest thing I ever did was to be born in America. You know, and not only that, it wasn't smart, but it was lucky.

36:54Being born in the 60s, a white heterosexual male, Jesus Christ, scale force five wins in my sales. It never even dawned on me in the 90s when I was raising, I literally raised, $120 or$150 million from my companies through the 90s, it never dawned on me to ask, why aren't women raising money? Why aren't non-whites, why aren't gay people down on Sand Hill Road raising money for their startups? It never even dawned on me to ask these questions. And I realize now just how much unfair advantage I have. So it sort of flipped from, wow, check my shit out. son of a single-migrant mother who'd lived and died as secretary, and I'm such a baller.

37:36I overcame all these obstacles. And what I realized is even though I may not have had some of the advantages of my wealthier friends, I was pretty much born on third base. I came a professional age during the internet when a guy with a good rap and a shaved head could raise tens of millions of dollars for his crazy ideas. By the way, most of my businesses have not worked. Most of them have not worked. All I needed, though, and the great thing about America, they say only one out of seven businesses works. So I started nine. And two of my businesses have worked, and all I needed was one. Being born with my identity, I came of age when you could get into UCLA.

38:14UCLA had a 74 % admissions rate. It's 9 % now. My total tuition for undergrad and grad school was$7 ,000. I can't even imagine what it is now. And that, by the way, is something I hear more and more. That is, is there's no need for university. There's no need to go. So you are not a believer of that. Look, it used to be a no-brainer when I went to school. I would argue that college is still immensely value-add. The problem is the corruption in higher ed has made it less of a value. You're fair. This is fair. I have something really exciting to share with you today. Paul? Yes. Okay, camera's over here.

39:03I know, but this is just, this is the gift that you gave me, right? You and the team. This is my Carver Matt aura frame from our sponsor, and I love it. I can't help but look at it. I mean, it has thousands of photos, thousands of videos of all of my most fond memories. I've actually been loving it, maybe a little too much. And I think our audience would love it too. That's so true. And there's a special deal that we have on right now. You can get 35 pounds off your Carver Matte Aura Frames simply by going to AuraFrames.co.uk and you use the code PAUL at checkout. That is a-u-r-a-frames.co.uk.

39:50Terms and conditions apply. Can we go to fatherhood? Yeah. This is a topic that's near and dear to my heart. Yeah. And what I've noticed even in this conversation that you've mentioned your father quite a bit. Yep. What do you believe, and I understand at least the circumstances that you write about your father in the book. But what do you believe you learned about love from your father? That's a generous question. Are you close with your dad? Yes. And were you raised in a two-parent household? I was blessed to be raised in a two-parent household. And how long have your parents been married? Oh, my gosh, 50 years.

40:33So I just think that's wonderful. That's a victory because that meant at some point both of them really invested. it's impossible for one of them not to go into deficit in terms of what they're contributing and the one but one or both people just invest yeah and it's good for you and i think that's one of the reasons you just have a nice confidence of value i i and i appreciate that truly and one thing that i do want to underscore about my father in particular is that he really broke a cycle because he didn't grow up with his father yeah uh and uh and i don't believe his father grew up with his father.

41:06So it was one of these where he literally broke a cycle and he had a certain part in his life. He had a stepfather, but he really acquired these parenting skills himself. How often do you speak to your parents? Every week, at minimum every week. And it's one of these where I, the longer I live, the more I understand how privileged I am to have him in my life and have him support me the way that he does. I feel like it's unconditional. But even to have that has just been such a blessing. And do you have siblings? I have a younger brother, and he feels that same level of support. And then I feel as if I've had a guide for what I do with my kids.

41:55And then also just one other note from my father, something that I've noticed you've written about, and I know that you do with your boys, is we're very physical in terms of, you know, we hold hands and kiss. My 15-year-old, and a lot of people will even maybe joke this, but it's, to me, it's the most raw form of love, is he will still hold my hand in public. And it's - I can't tell you how jealous of that I am. I would kill for that. My 15-year-old stopped about two years ago. That's really nice. So what did I learn about love? I learned what, I mean, from my father, quite frankly, I learned what it isn't.

42:39So my dad, to his credit, he checked the key instinctual box as a father. He was a better father to me than his father was to him. His father was a drunk and physically abusive. You know, I can't even imagine. I didn't know this. My father never talked about it, but his sister later in life told me that his father used to come home so drunk, he would wake my dad up as a child and beat him. I mean, just the shit you think. I mean, I really did when I heard that. I thought, you know, I don't give my father enough credit. it. Look, my dad, I snarkily say my father was this handsome Scottish man with a strong jawline and a Glaswegian accent, a Sean Connery-like accent, which meant in 70s California, he could not only think with his dick, he could use it.

43:34My dad was out of control and started his third marriage while he was married to my mom, a second marriage. So incredibly cheap. It was like scarred me. I remember him taking me and my best buddy Adam to see the movie Grease in 1977. And then after the movie, him cornering my best friend and collecting the$2 for the ticket. Didn't talk to me for two days once because I made the mistake when we went to Baskin Robbins of ordering a shake that cost$2. Like didn't talk to me for two days. You're like, your dad doesn't talk to me. Yeah. It was just, I didn't ask him and I ordered a shake and he had to pay the two.

44:12So it was, and the bottom line is, and this was different, the expectations were different back in the 70s. But when my mom and dad got divorced, he took off. He pursued a professional opportunity in Ohio. And so I saw him on Christmas in the summers. But here's what he did. He tried. He tried. He made an effort. So as I got older, and this goes back to the scorecard thing, I used to get resentful of my father. I would remember he wasn't a very good dad to me. I'd be 30 years old. Why am I being such a good son? And I would stop talking to him for six months. And then the unlock one goes back to the scorecard.

44:53I said, you know, what kind of son do I want to be? I want to be a loving, generous son. And I decided that's what I'm going to be. I'm going to put away the scorecard. And then as a lot of men do, he'd mellowed, became much softer as he got older. and we had a wonderful relationship kind of the last, call it the last 25 years of his life. And it was a huge unlock for me. And then I realized that's how I should approach all my relationships. Stop keeping score. So what did he do? He did better than his dad did. He was pulled out of school when he was 13. He was physically abused. He joined the Royal Navy when he was 18.

45:26Sent money home thinking he was going to come to America. Got home, found out his mother had spent all the money he sent home on whiskey and cigarettes because she was mad at him. So what do you expect me to do? I was bored. So he didn't have great role models. And as he got older, he started saying, he couldn't get off the phone without saying, I love you when we got older. And for the first few years that he said that, I didn't say it back. And finally I said, dad, I needed to hear that when I was eight. I'm 38. I got so many people in my life now that love me. I needed to hear it when I was eight.

45:55I never heard it from you, right? And now you're telling me that. And then I decided, okay, put that bullshit away and just say I love you back because it feels really good. And then the thing, he did try, and I love what you're talking about with your kids. He did mess up my hair. I could tell he wanted to be affectionate with me, and sometimes he'd like what I was doing. He would mess up my hair. That was his way of being affectionate. And one thing I would say to every father, affection is just this gift. I can't tell you how jealous I am that you're a 15-year-old still. I put my arm around both my sons when we were coming out of Granger & Co.

46:31in Marlborough. I remember it was exactly two years ago. And I put my arms around both of them, and my then 16-year-old literally, like, it was as if he'd been hit by, he'd been electric shock. He's like, stop it, I'm 16. No, he, like, squirmed away from me. And it was, like, so upsetting. Like, oh, he's gone. That's it. I used to kiss my boys. I remember my closest friend, Lee Lotus. his father was like this Burt Reynolds looking like man of men. And they used to come in, they're Italian. And like it was nothing, at least like 24, like it was nothing. They'd walk in and this Burt Reynolds figure would kiss his son on the lips.

47:11Like it was nothing. Like they do in the Sopranos. I remember thinking, Jesus, what just happened there? And so I started doing that with my kids when they were little. I kissed them on the cheeks, sometimes on the lips. One of my biggest regrets is when my firstborn was really little, he'd want to sleep with us. He wouldn't be able to sleep. He'd come into our room, and he'd come in holding a basket of cars like a peace offering. If you let me sleep with you guys, you can play with these cars too. We'd read some fucked up things somewhere in some book saying, you're not supposed to let your kid sleep with you.

47:43The first two years, we didn't do it. After that, we gave in. We let our youngest sleep with us. I think co-sleeping is a gift from God. You put them in their bed on their own. But if they wander in, let them come in. And it's not only good for them, it's good for you. There's nothing like waking up. It'll happen a bunch of times. You'll wake up and your son will wake up and he'll just look at you and smile and then go back to sleep. And you're like, okay, this is what it's about. So I think co-sleeping and it's big in the Indian and Japanese cultures, I think it's something we miss in Western culture.

48:15I think it's a great idea. I try to be very affectionate with my boys. I try to tell them every day that I love them and I'm proud of them. You know, these are just like basics, right? And my dad had trouble with that, but he was so emotive compared to his father. So what I learned from him is that you can evolve and that your responsibility at a minimum is to check that box. And he did that. He was better to me than his father was to him. Thank you for sharing that. If I could ask about your mother. Sure. Because that moment in the book where you talked about how, I think you mentioned this was really the first moment that you felt like a man when you were able to care for your mother.

49:03Was that the case? Well, you're being generous. So my mother lied to my life, single immigrant, you know, lived and died as secretary. We didn't have a lot of money, but it wasn't a sob story. We had okay lives, took vacations, and every day communicated to me that I was, you know, I think I told you I was tall, skinny, with acne. My mom used to come home and just randomly would be watching TV, and she's like, you are so handsome. I've just been staring at you. You are so handsome. And you're like, oh, shit, Mom. But I think you start to believe you have value when people tell you every day you have value.

49:40And I got that from my mom. And she was a good person, a really good role model, worked hard. So a lot of my life took care of me. I still think I have a base of confidence, and I'd like to think kindness because of my mom. And I think that, I just don't think there's anything that matches kind of the unconditional love of a parent. I don't think there's anything that builds a base like that. And she was a good person, and I'm in graduate school at Berkeley, and I get a call saying, I'm not doing well. You need to come home. My mom was not dramatic. I'm like, oh, God, this is serious. So I came home, and I walked into a situation that was really I didn't know how to deal with.

50:19She'd been discharged from the hospital after a mastectomy, and they discharged her early. We were uninsured, and she was so violently ill. And I walked into a situation I just did not know how to handle. And there's just certain things the son can't do for his mother. So I thought, oh, I'll call. I'll get a nurse. Nurses were$35 an hour. I think I had$700 to my name. So I'm like, okay, I got 20 hours of nursing. I remember at that moment being 25 and been given so many advantages in life, worked at Morgan Stanley in business school, and I couldn't take care of my mom. And so my first real feeling of manhood wasn't a feeling of manhood.

51:00It was a feeling of the lack thereof. Okay. Like, I can't take care of my mom. Like, if there's any person I should have the resources and the skills to take care of, it should be the person who's taking care of me. And I felt like I felt a sense of failure and shame. And to a certain extent, that was very motivating. I think that's when I got my act together. I think that's when I said, look, you can't decide to be economically secure, but you can decide to try really hard. And by the way, I'm not saying my way is the right way. But for the next 20 years, I did pretty much nothing but work. And it paid off for me.

51:35And I'm not saying I get a lot of pushback that, Scott, some people don't want to live to work. They want to work to live. I get it. But have a sober conversation with yourself around what the tradeoffs required based on the expectations you have for yourself. But that was when I think I really got my act together was this recognition that like, okay, I'm supposed to be at a very, like the kind of test number one of being a good human, a good son, a good man is taking care of this person who has unconditionally loved you. And I wasn't able to do that. That was really, like, shocking, upsetting, but also very motivating.

52:14I still, like, I talk about it, and I go right back to the situation and just the shame and upset I felt at that moment. But the flip side of that is I think it was very motivating. I was kind of sleepwalking through life. I'm curious. At that moment, at 25, did you have anyone that you could talk to or that you could share this feeling with? No. Now, this was back when you didn't even really, I mean. I guess where I'm going to with this question is that, so when my best friend passed away, which is not that long ago, 2017, other than my wife, there was no one I could talk to. Yeah. There was no one I felt, and maybe this is on me, but I felt as if there was no one I can share how sad I was.

53:08And what's interesting to me is that it has been this podcast that's been helpful for me. It's been therapy because it's interesting. He pops up almost in every conversation. And then I just did this tour around the UK where I wrote a letter to him and just reciting that letter. It's a letter that you wrote. Just writing that was therapeutic. so I felt like I had no one I could talk to. Did you feel like you had anyone that you could talk to? The answer is I didn't, and maybe it was because I just lacked the confidence and people would have been fine talking about it. Did you grow up with money or middle class?

53:46I would say, you know what, my story is literally from, it's like a rags to middle class. Yeah. So Jamaica, Queens, nothing. Right. And then my father started to do better. And so it's interesting because I grew up going to public schools. And I grew up in that lane. My brother went to private schools. So it's almost two different worlds that we grew up in. So I still remember the times. Yeah. Where I was headed was people who grew up with money, they can be sympathetic to people without it, but it's very hard to be empathetic. The way I describe it is we had all these conversations, my mom and I.

54:35I'm like, oh, I could feel a conversation coming. Driving school. All my friends were using this driving school. Another conversation. I had to use the driving school with this old guy showed up in a bad Pontiac, the cheaper driving school. Being so anxious when I lost my jacket the second time in the same week because jackets cost$30. I knew my mom was just going to lose it, just lose it. It's as if you have a ghost following you around saying you're not worthy. It's as if in a capitalist society when you grow up without money, it's as if we had this ghost following us around, just reminding us every once in a while, you guys screwed up.

55:11You and your mom are not worthy. And this is why I think it's so important that we have elected officials who grew up without money. I'm not saying the Kennedys can't be wonderful. I'm not saying Governor Pritzker can't understand people without money or be sympathetic for him, but you really don't know what it's like. You really can never really understand. And you trace that back to your time with your mother. Well, not only economic, quote-unquote, trauma when I was younger, not having enough, but also as I got older, money did solve a lot of problems. And I hate to say that, but in a capitalist society, it made me, I got to do things I could never do.

55:54It made me more interesting to other men. It made me more attractive to strange women. I mean, that's the bottom line in a capitalist society. It solved a lot of problems. My mom got sick again with cancer. By that time, I was making good money. Quit, mom. Quit. I can take care of you. I can buy you a nice home. I can decorate it with pottery. Pottery Barn's my client, Williams-Sonoma. I can do the whole place in Pottery Barn, which at that time seemed like the ultimate Versailles luxury for us, right? That felt so amazing. That felt so good. Almost, I don't want to say more important than the emotion being there emotionally.

56:35I moved in with my mom. But that economic, I mean, it's unfair. but economic security in a capitalist society, it means life. The bottom 1 % of income earning homes live 12 years shorter than the top 1%. 12 years. It's become life in a capitalist society. I'm not saying that's the way the world should be, but it's the way the world is. So the life I lead now versus the life I lead then, I jokingly say, I did nothing but work from the age of 25 to 45. It cost me my hair. It cost me my marriage. It was hugely damaging to my stress and anxiety and health. And it was worth it. Because I live in this thunderdome hunger games called America.

57:23And the reality is, you know, work on yourself, be a good person. But if you can find good friends, a romantic partner, and a good job, a lot of that shit's going to work out on its own. So, I mean, this is raw, but I would not expect anything less from you. You should do an assessment of what your addictions are. Addiction loosely defines something you continue to engage in despite the fact it has negative ramifications on the own life. I have two addictions. I'm addicted to, in reverse order, I'm addicted to the affirmation of others. I'll read the comments from this podcast. That's pathetic.

58:02I'm going to be dead soon. Why do I care? Why do I care? I believe what I'm saying. I know what I'm saying. On the net is productive, but I get affected by people's comments. Not as much as I used to, but the viewpoint of people I will never meet, maybe even they're not even humans, they're bots run out of a troll farm in Albania, will take me out of my head and out of the presence of people I love. Wow. Sometimes on weekends, it ruins my weekend when people say hundreds of comments, this guy's blaming women. That bums me out. I'm addicted to the affirmation of others. My number one addiction, though, is I'm addicted to money.

58:39You know, I'm boasting now. I speak a lot. I'm good at it. My stuff is hot right now. I get crazy speaking fees. I just got offered to go speak at this conference in Jackson Hall, Masters of the Universe hedge funds, a quarter of a million dollar speaking fee. I accept it. I don't need the money. And I know that's a boast. I don't need the money. And by the way, for me at my age to get there and the jet lag, it's like gonna take me out of the game for three to five days. Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? And I rationalize it by saying, oh, it's because I can give the money away. And I probably will.

59:21But I cannot get off the hamster wheel of money. I still continue to be obsessed with this is the wrong word. But make decisions around money that are taking me away from more important things in my life. Like? Hang out with friends. Being with my sons. This is my last Thanksgiving with my 18-year-old. Not my last, but the last where he's home. Why do I continue? I work 50 to 60 hours a week. At this point, I was probably working 30 to 40. I worked so goddamn hard to get to this point, and I enjoy it. But I'm still like, I'll check my stocks on the car ride home. I'll check my stocks. Why am I checking my stocks?

1:00:03I can't break this cycle of capitalism and money. and part of the criticism that's accurate about the book is I'm just too focused on economic security, that that will end your problems. It doesn't. I mean, it helps. It helps more than it should in a capitalist society, but I am still very much addicted to, you know, call it economic security. It's kind of never enough for me, and I have a practice now to try and bust out of it, but I'm having trouble with it, and your viewers are going to go, cry me a fucking river. That's It's not about, you know, oh, poor you. You can't bust out of the addiction of money.

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1:02:45All right. Can we go into romantic relationships? Sure. All right. So this is the area that I was so fascinating to see you begin talking about. Yeah. And so let's start with dating. Yeah. Okay. So we know that, or some will say that men have a hard time when it comes to dating. Others will say, no, we're living in the patriarchy. Men have a very easy time when it comes to dating. What's your position? Well, the answer is yes. So people used to meet mates through friends, school, and work. Now, hands down, number one is online dating. Yes. And whenever you digitize a marketplace, there's a consolidation of winner take most.

1:03:26So you consolidate, you digitize retail, one player ends up with 50 % Amazon. You digitize information, one player ends up with 90 % of queries Google. You digitize online connections, one company ends up with two-thirds of all social media globally outside of China. That's meta. We digitize dating, and there is a winner-take-most environment now, and that is the top 10%, 50 men on Tinder, 50 women, 46 of the women will show all of their attention to just four men. because the attributes get distilled down to a very small number of observable qualities. That leaves 46 men fighting over four women.

1:04:03So if you're in the top 10 % of attractiveness of men in online dating, you can have a date every night, which quite frankly doesn't incent good behavior, doesn't incent long-term relationships, doesn't incent you to be kind. The bottom 90, especially the bottom half, start resenting women and feel rejected or validated that they don't have value in the mating marketplace. And I think it's just generally speaking worse for all women because I think the men they're drawn to don't necessarily behave well and they don't have an opportunity. Let me back up. If you talk to couples that have been married longer than 30 years, 80 % of them say one was more interested than the other in the beginning.

1:04:46And it was almost always the man was more interested in the beginning because the bottom line is women are just choosier than men. At a very basic reductive level, men for thousands of years have been taught our job is to spread our seed to the four corners of the earth. That's our job. We're less choosy. Women, their job is to put up a finer filter and pick the strongest, smartest, and fastest seed. The basis of seed trying to get everywhere in a finer filter is the reason why your kids are going to be taller and smarter than you. That's the basis of evolutionary progress. Now, the issue is, where does a man demonstrate excellence?

1:05:23Those same couples. I wasn't interested in him in the beginning, but I liked the way he treated his parents at church. I saw he was kind. We hung out with the same friends, and I found out he was funny. I loved the way he danced. I found I was attracted to his smell. He seemed kind. I worked with him, and he was so good at what he did. where does a man demonstrate excellence now to get through that filter? A lot of men aren't going to work. A lot of men aren't going to school. Remote work, remote school. Church attendance or attendance to religious institutions is at an all-time low. And you also, I think, online dating has taught us to look at a very small number of her dog.

1:06:04You've seen six feet, six figures. Right. You ask women, young women on dating apps, what's your bare minimum? Six feet, six figures. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Six feet, six figures. You got to make six figures to live in London or New York, or I want someone who can be supportive of me and the family, and I'm going to make money, but six feet, six figures. If you take out men over 50, married men, obese men, it's 2 % of the population. And so where does the man demonstrate excellence? Also, a lot of young men are just struggling and not bringing a lot to the table. Also, as women's economic power has ascended, men's contribution logistically and emotionally has not kept pace.

1:06:43So a lot of women are just doing the math and saying, why would I enter into this transaction that's not as good for me? I'm just bringing so much more to the table. But this is where I'm seeing a trend. So a trend that I'm seeing is this is mostly among Gen Z is this whole notion of hypogamous dating, right? So historically, we know women dated hypergamosly, right? Dated up, up in social class, up in income, up in education. But among the Gen Z group, I'm beginning to see this opening to, hey, I'll date less educated. I'll date less money. There's a term. Have you heard of the term shreking? Oh, it's aspirational to date a guy who's unattractive.

1:07:29Exactly. But in addition, a part of that is less than what you're bringing to the table. So it could be unattractive, but it also could be beneath me, social class. Yeah. So this is a trend, at least that I'm observing. What's your take on it? Does that then begin to shift this discussion around women, essentially, who are out now, out earning, going down? This is a complicated one. So you're right. Typically, historically, men have made it socioeconomically horizontally and down, women horizontal and up. And when the pool of horizontal and up keeps shrinking, there's less connection and less mating.

1:08:1475 % of women say economic viability is huge in a mate. Only 25 % of men state the same thing. Beyoncé could work at McDonald's and marry Jay-Z. The opposite is not true. I think if you don't acknowledge that, you're talking about the way the world should be, not the way the world is. And I think we have a responsibility to start celebrating and encouraging men to pick up more emotional labor. One of my role models in the book is a guy who is just like this, for lack of a better term, stud I looked up to growing up. Had a Porsche, Ferrari, baller, lawyer, nice man, first guy to take me and my best buddy working out.

1:08:51Married a woman who was 20. He was 23. Married a woman who was 30 with two kids. He's in his late 70s now. She's in her late 80s. She's suffering from dementia. He's been a caregiver for 10 years. Just this selfless, most of us would have put his wife in assisted living years ago, just at her side, giving her dignity. I'm not even sure she recognizes him most of the time now. That we need as men to train our boys that that is a form of masculinity, that working on your marriage and being in service and providing some of that emotional labor is really important. I think we have a responsibility.

1:09:33I think young men need to level up and realize they have more agency than these incels or black pills tell them. No, you need to work on yourself. If you work out, if you just have a plan around economic viability, if you're trying to establish a kindness practice, if you have interests, if you read, and then you start taking risks and put yourself in the company of strangers, I don't buy the incel thing. I think there's more. I think a lot of incels are V-cells, and that is they're voluntarily celibate. They don't want to put in the work. So a lot of it's on them. I see these articles, and I think they make for good clickbait.

1:10:10I think you are still trying to overcome thousands of years of instinct, and the instinct is the following. As a woman, I believe at some point I will be vulnerable because I want to gestate and I want to birth children, and I'm going to be vulnerable. and I need someone who can protect me. And in a capitalist society, protection is equated with economic viability. And I think it is very aspirational and totally unrealistic to think that men are still not going to be, in terms of sexual currency or mating currency, evaluated on their economic viability. One in seven households now, the woman is making more money than the man.

1:10:53and I think we're adjusting a little bit. Regardless of how many subscriptions to The Atlantic or The New York Times you have, the likelihood of divorce when the female in the relationship starts making more money than the man doubles. The use of ED drugs triples because the man feels bad about himself. So, and I've gotten criticism for this saying, okay, Scott, you're telling men they're not viable. They're not going to get to the goal of being a mate, of having a mate unless they make money. And it's worked for you. And then also on the lady's side, because this is so interesting that you bring this exact point up because as I was coming over here, I was so excited to talk to you.

1:11:33I mentioned to a friend of mine that I'm coming over to talk to Scott. Yeah. And she says, oh my gosh. You know, tell him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She said, what I don't like is when he talks about how men need to be providers, physically or financially, because I can do that for myself. This is exactly what she outlined. This is in essence what you're saying here. So what is your take on what she's saying, but also to your point of what role do we play as men? And what should we be aspiring to be doing, especially when it comes to dating? Look, at the end of the day, you got to contribute. and I think a lot of divorce rates have skyrocketed.

1:12:22And some of that is a good thing because women no longer feel economically indentured to a man. That's a good thing. And men are not keeping pace with women. Women are ascending economically. Men are not ascending domestically and logistically at home. I mean, they are a little bit and there are some relationships where it works out. The dad stays home. They figure it out. Good for them. And I think it's amazing that women are doing it for themselves. I don't think we should do anything to get in the way of that. If we hadn't embraced women in the workplace, we wouldn't have won World War II. We figured out that women can build P-51 Mustangs as well as men.

1:12:59If we hadn't encouraged women to enter the workforce in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, we'd be a second-rate power to China. This notion that the far right says women wake up at 35 and they went for their career and now they're childless and they're miserable. so you're suggesting they should have been alone and broke? That doesn't work either. That's worse. Good for them. So this notion that there's a tradeoff or it's a zero-sum game, I don't think is accurate. But, and this is where your friend's going to get pissed off, is she having sex with men who make less money than her? It's an honest question.

1:13:42It's a great question. I will go back and ask her now. Because the data I see is generally speaking, let me really fill up your comment section with negative vibes. A lot of women will say, I just want a sensitive man. And I joke, well, that just leaves two people in the car crying and the parallel parking spot empty. Do women really want a sensitive man? Or do they want a man that notices their life? You deserve to have stages where strangers clap for you. You deserve to make money and have economic independence. You deserve to be noticed of all the shit you are bringing to the table and the emotional labor, and I need to step up with emotional labor.

1:14:23And I may not understand certain things that are important to you, but if it's important to you, it's important to me, right? I notice how hard it is to try and, like, contribute emotionally to the household or professionally, economically, and also all these expectations that at the same time you're supposed to be in great shape and hot and fashionable at the same. I mean, society kind of says to women, it says to men, be economically viable. That's it. Be economically viable. It says to women, be fucking Wonder Woman. Be everything. Be professional. Be good looking. Do Pilates. Be kind. Be nurturing.

1:15:01And be a great mom in your spare time. So I mean, the stresses on women are incredible. Does your partner notice, right? Right. But I'm not sure. I don't see data showing that women are really drawn to, quote unquote, a sensitive man. So I think there's some dissonance. Don't be an asshole. Don't be coarse. Don't be mean. Don't aspire to be unsensitive. Be in touch with yourself. Be in touch with your kids. But I find there is a lot of consumer dissonance between what women say works for them and then who they decide they want to be with in a relationship. So if you were the young man or whatever age man, then how do you go about dating?

1:15:46What behaviors do you think that you should be trying to hone? I think that my advice to young men, I mentor young men. And I don't mentor. When my friends ask me to mentor their kids, it typically, the kid's like, I don't know if I should go to Google. I'm at Salesforce. I'm like, dude, you should be mentoring me. You don't need my help. You're fine, right? I'm not sure if I should get married. I'm like, oh, God, get therapy. Like, you're doing just fine. 63 % of men under the age of 30 have given up on dating. So if you're dating, it means you're in the top third of, like, whatever's required to work on yourself.

1:16:20And most of the therapist community will say, that's not the goal. You've got to work on yourself. I find every therapist thinks we should just all be in therapy five fucking times a week. Anyways, and most people, by the way, don't have the money. And if they can find a good job and a good partner and good friends, that solves most of it. Anyways, I'm not getting a lot of love from the therapist community right now. But if a young man, I think first and foremost, the first question I ask him is, would you have sex with you? Are you at the gym? Do you show, it's not that you need to have big muscles, but what you communicate with when you're in good shape, you communicate that you show up, that you're reliable, that you're not getting drunk every goddamn night, that you can maintain a schedule, that you're willing to invest long-term for long -term results, that you're probably mentally more healthy.

1:17:09There are studies showing that in many instances, exercise, consistent exercise is as or more beneficial than pharmaceuticals, right? Do you have a plan? You don't have to have a Panerai or Range Rover, but yeah, I'm getting my GED and then I'm going to get an apprenticeship and learn how to install HVAC energy efficient heaters. Do you have a plan? Do you have a kindness practice? Every day you try and do something nice and have good manners for people with no reciprocal expectation. I was not born kind. I had to practice it. But now it's second nature to me. I like to think I'm a kind person.

1:17:46Do you demonstrate kindness? Do you have perseverance? If you approach a woman in a setting and she says no, do you just bail out and go home and watch porn? I mean, okay, you're not going to get anywhere with that. Do you demonstrate excellence, right? Because I do think men have within their agency to build these things. Do you get out and put yourself in the company of strangers and have the willingness to approach them? You know, you don't go up and say, hey, you want to go out. But just to approach them. What was the stat in your book that, oh, yeah, here it is. 45 % of boys between the ages of 18 and 25 have never asked a woman out face to face.

1:18:24In person. In person. That blew me away. But haven't you heard this from some—I saw some young women when I was working there. Haven't you heard from them—this is anecdotal—that I go out, I look amazing, I got my act together, I'm attractive, I'm nice, and no men approach me. Yes, all the time. And 80 % of women still say—and I think there's some dissonance here, I think it's closer to 90—they still expect the man to initiate romantic interest. and a lot of men have gotten mixed signals. I'll give them that. But I think at the end of the day, my advice to a man is that, first off, embrace your horniness, but embrace it to turn you into a better man.

1:19:07Try and modulate your use of porn. I think it's unrealistic to tell a guy not to engage in porn, but try and modulate it because that fire of really wanting to establish contact, have a relationship, I remember when I was younger, I was a late bloomer. I didn't have a sexual relationship until I was 19. But I wanted so badly to be in a relationship. I remember thinking, I'd be the best boyfriend. I'm nice. I'm funny. I'm affectionate. I think I understand women better than most men my age. I remember thinking, I can't wait to be a boyfriend. I can't wait. But I was 6 '2", 140 pounds with bad acne, and no one was willing to engage in that experiment with me.

1:19:49So I tried really hard. I worked out. I got Accutane. I got a plan. I worked really hard to get into UCLA. I tried to level up. I got used to rejection. I got used to going up and trying to open with women. And then when they weren't interested, realizing I'm going to be okay. I worked hard. I tried to figure out a path for economic security. My advice for dating is level up. Don't believe that you're assigned to be an incel. Exactly. Are you being a V-cell? Are you being voluntarily celibate? Work out. Have a plan. Put yourself in situations with strangers who are friendly. If you go to a writing class, if you go to church, if you volunteer at a nonprofit, people are nice.

1:20:39People aren't going to say, get away from me, incel. People are generally speaking pretty nice. And guess what? If you make an approach and she gives you body language and she's not interesting, Well, it was nice to meet you. You leave. And guess what? You're both going to be fine. You're both going to be fine. So my advice to young men dating, try your best to use that fire of horniness to turn yourself into a better man. Yes. But did I just hear you say, modulate your use of pornography? Yeah. That's bold. Well, here's the problem. I used to go on campus at UCLA every day because I'd see my friends.

1:21:18It was a beautiful campus. And also, it was like a bad Cinemax film. There were so many hot women everywhere. And there was a remote but a non-zero probability I might be able to open, establish a relationship, a dialogue, see them again in class. Hey, we're having a party. Do you want to come by? And maybe a one in 100, but still there was that one, chance I'd end up hitting it off and having a relationship with that woman. I joke about my wife. I didn't see her at the pool at the Raleigh Hotel and think I'd like lower rates on my health insurance. I saw her and thought, I would really like to have sex with that woman.

1:21:58So I'm going to overcome my insecurities and my lack of alcohol in my system right now. And in the sun of the midday, I'm going to approach a strange woman at a pool and try and open. And it was at the Raleigh Hotel in South Beach. And 18 months later, our son's middle name is Raleigh. Wow, look at that. You need that fire. We want to celebrate a young man's desire for romantic and sexual relationships, but channel it into productive ways. And my fear is that if I'd had synthetic lifelike porn on my phone and computer available 24 by 7. You would have just opted for that. It's easy. At least once a week.

1:22:40I don't know. That fire, that like, you know, I don't want to go out. I don't want to approach a stranger. That's hard. It's hard to go up to someone strange and just say, hey, what's going on? I get it. I used humor to do that. But quite frankly, my desire to establish romantic, my mojo was greater than my fear at some point. And I worry that this synthetic relationships, Netflix, crypto, gambling, Reddit, Discord, are reducing men's mojo to take the risks to establish these relationships. Everything I've read coincides with what you're saying in terms of that fear of rejection is the number one reason why men are not approaching.

1:23:27But I think the fear of rejection is then exacerbated by these easy outs, these dopamine hits that are coming elsewhere. Now, Dana, you talked about how you walked over, you approached your now wife. You were able to fight through that fear. So now you're married, two beautiful boys. When you think about marriage, what I've noticed, and you've written about this, is that in the US, marriage rates have stayed fairly stable. Yep. In the UK, they've dropped just a little bit. Yep. What do you suspect is the reason why are marriage rates declining? So, well, one, some people would argue, I forget that divorce lawyer that's all over TikTok now.

1:24:08Oh, my gosh, James Sexton. Yeah. He says, and there's some, that it's a bad technology, that 50 % of marriages end, and then like a half of the people who are still married are staying up for the kids. Yes. So technically, it has a 75 % failure rate. What other technology or product would you engage in that has a 75 % failure rate? If you look at the causes for divorce, people think it's infidelity or lack of shared values. The number one cause of divorce is economic anxiety. It's like high blood pressure. It takes everything. When you have economic anxiety in a household, it just makes everything worse, and it makes everything harder to overcome.

1:24:47And people start blaming each other. It's just really hard. My thesis, and I don't have data here, is the reason why it's gone down in the UK is the UK economy hasn't grown. And there's just more economic anxiety that plagues households, which creates strain in relationships. So that would be my thesis. I don't have data to back that up. So I tend to agree with you. I look at the marriage rate and I say, well, let's look at the marital satisfaction rate, which is incredibly low. So do we want to be in miserable relationships? I mean, I don't know. I'm not good at this. I've been divorced. I think in myself, I aspire to be a good husband.

1:25:24I'm definitely not a great husband. I don't think it's easy. My dad was, my role model for this, my dad was married and divorced four times. You know, not a very high character person, didn't treat women very well. So I don't feel like I have good, I give the same best man's toast at every wedding. I've been a best man three times. And I have three pieces of advice. and this is just anecdotal, but I've observed, I think this works. And again, I'm no expert on marriage. One, put away the scorecard. Just decide what kind of partner, husband you want to be and live up to that. And my mistake in a lot of my relationships was keeping score.

1:26:05I'm not getting as much out of this friendship as I'm giving, I'm out. I'm paying this employee more than I'm getting from them. They're out. My girlfriend, I spend time with my girlfriend's dad when he was in town. I expect her to spend time with one of my parents when he's... Constant scoring. And you will naturally inflate your own contribution to a relationship and diminish theirs. So you always end up frustrated and on the wrong end of a relationship, and you're not going to have long-term relationships. Decide the husband, the boyfriend, the daughter, the coworker you want to be, and live to that standard and put away the scorecard.

1:26:44I'm not suggesting it be a doormat. I shed relationships, but put away the scorecard. And I think one of the great tests of masculinity at the end of the day is surplus value. If you leave the earth thinking, I've loved more people, I've given more love than I've received, I've created more economic value and tax revenue than I've absorbed, I've noticed more people's lives than I've noticed mine, I've planted a bunch of trees, the shade of which I will never sit under, that's the whole shooting match. That's the whole point of being a good human and a good man. Put away the scorecard. Number two, always express physical desire and affection.

1:27:21Any moment. Like women, quite frankly, just value holding hands more than men, I believe. Anytime you feel a sense of affection, even more than that, express affection. Anytime you have sexual desire, express it. I'm not saying you have to have sex. Whenever you feel those urges, express them. And again, and I'd like your friend to answer this, I think women want to be wanted. I think it makes them feel good to have a man in their life that really just wants them and wants to hold their hand and wants to have sex with them. So try and express affection and sex. Say, I choose you. Our relationship is singular.

1:28:09I think that's important. And the third thing is, and it's a bit snarky, is never, ever let a woman be cold or hungry. You carry pashminas and power bars. You're welcome. Anyways, that's my best man's toast. All right. I'll take that. You know what's so interesting, because we keep referring back to my friend is she told me about your point three as well yeah you know what she said what's that she said i could feed myself and i can keep myself warm i get it i get it it's one of those where i this is why i sometimes i i don't know what to do and i think it goes back to this whole notion of what is a man yeah and also what is a woman Yeah.

1:28:52Like what, like, because your book is notes on being a man. Yeah. So ultimately, what is being a man? Is it surplus value, which I think is very interesting. Is that ultimately, is that it? Is that the key? Yeah, the answer is I don't feel like I've unlocked the code here, the Da Vinci code for what it is to be a man. And the book is meant to say this is where I succeeded and where I failed. What I realize is there's a big overlap with femininity. Like women can be wonderful protectors. It's usually a bit more nurturing than it is like physical protection. Yes. They can be providers, and that's a wonderful thing.

1:29:28I think what it is is I want to develop an aspirational code for young men who don't have a code, such that in a certain way their masculinity is a means of being, quite frankly, more human. I do think that the best alchemy for productive households throughout history has been a mix of masculine and feminine energy. Men are more aggressive, and that's a negative word, but some of that pays off. Men are typically more inclined to be entrepreneurs. Some of that is because women haven't given the same opportunities. But I think if you've made an absolute equivalence of opportunity, you would still have more male entrepreneurs.

1:30:04Because we get more reward from the affirmation of strangers and ego, and women typically get more reward from relationships. Women make better managers, because I think they're better at relationships and better at reading people. everyone in the room nods and says, oh, yeah, well, you know, da-da-da, plight, plopause. But if I say on average men are more likely to start a company because they're risk aggressive, I don't feel safe around him. Whoa, hold on. Hold on, right? So I think it's okay to recognize that the 95 % of us that are born as binary are more inclined to certain behaviors than others, which, by the way, means we shouldn't provide the same grace and dignity and opportunity for the 5 % of the non-binary community, and it means we should absolutely do a better job of defeminizing nursing and healthcare such that more men feel comfortable moving into healthcare.

1:30:55Because healthcare is kind of a new manufacturing. That's the place that's going to replace our manufacturing jobs. And at the same time, we need to be really thoughtful about ensuring that women have the same access to venture capital and to start businesses as men. I'm investing in vocational programming because there's a ton of, on the main street economy a ton of jobs available for vocational programming. And we've shamed them. Young people think it's more prestigious to be a barista than a pipe fitter. And there's these stories of 11th graders taking auto shop and fixing EV batteries and making$80 ,000 in their senior year in high school.

1:31:30Yes. Ton of opportunity there. We could have the exact same opportunities for vocational work for women as men. Degender it, de-shame it. More men will go into it. Men appear to be more fond of working with their hands outside in physical work. They seem to enjoy it more. That's okay. At some point, I think we can live in a world where we recognize everyone deserves the same opportunities, but certain people are going to be more prone to having an aptitude or leaning into certain things than the other. But going back to your question, what does it mean to be a man? I'd like to think the young men could adopt a code around masculinity that they have an easier time leaning into.

1:32:13Does it make them a man? I'd like to think so. I think the good test of a man is surplus value, but people might say, well, isn't that the test of a woman? Guilty. That's a good test for a woman too. What I'm trying to figure out is how do we make better humans? And a lot of young men right now are becoming shitty citizens. They're engaging in conspiracy theory, nationalist content, self-harm, blaming immigrants, blaming women, hurting themselves. And so the question is, well, is it an outdated notion? Should we just do away with it? And we should be talking about humanity and acknowledge there's differences, but this is just about being a better person and try to do away with these norms, many of which came out of the patriarchy.

1:33:01I think that's a fair argument. And my genuine goal with all of this is not to position my I'm not an adolescent psychiatrist I don't have a PhD in gender studies I do a lot of research I like to think I'm thoughtful about this my heart's in the right place I am trying to help but let's inspire a dialogue where both parties can have a civil dialogue and craft better solutions but coming back to the beginning there's just no ignoring young men have fallen further faster than any special interest group in America and there appears to be a lack of empathy for them and that is not helping you You know, I appreciate that vulnerability of acknowledging that, you know what, maybe we do need to throw away this framing and make it genderless.

1:33:45But let's acknowledge the fact that men are drowning, you know, right now. And not just young men, you know, because we're even talking about marriage. Something that I read in your book was the suicide rate of men post-divorce. Yeah. Do you recall that? Yeah. That stat. Well, if you think about, I did a deep dive around suicide after the death of Alex Kearns, and there's zones of suicide. And the zone, the ultimate, the zone of suicide for a man is the year after he gets divorced. In other words, when a man is most prone to self-harm is the year post-divorce. He loses his primary relationship.

1:34:27So more than two-thirds of the time, it's not his choice. 70 % of divorce filings are from women. So I'm not blaming them, but women bring more divorce energy to a relationship than men. Sometimes it's just a rational, smart decision. This guy's not adding enough value. But the year post-divorce is when a man is most inclined to hurt himself. He loses his primary relationship. Oftentimes he loses access to his kids. Yes, yes. It's just one in three men have no contact with their children after six years. And a lot of that's their fault. But a lot of times in divorce, I was the son of a divorce, you have a tendency to sanctify the person who's taking care of you and demonize the person who you feel left.

1:35:10And oftentimes there's so much anger that one party does not make it easy for quite frankly the dad to be involved. There are in family court some economic, I don't know if there's bias. Sometimes it's not easy for the dad to stay involved. And also a lot of men, Quite frankly, there's abandonment issues. There really are. And it goes back to another finding in the research I did around this book. There's this cartoon of a woman in her 30s who never found romantic love. What a tragedy. Lisa never found romantic. And there's a commercial, this cartoon of her sitting in her windowsill on a rainy day with her tea, and all she has is cats.

1:35:49And oh, poor Lisa. She never found a man. Lisa's actually doing okay. When women don't have a romantic relationship, they oftentimes pour that energy back into their friends or their professional lives. When men don't have a relationship, if a man hasn't cohabitated with a woman or been married by the time he's 30, there's a one in three chance he's going to be a substance abuser. Widows are happier after their husband dies. True story. They're happier. They're happier. They feel freer. Not all, but on average, a widow is happier after her husband dies. A widower is less happy. Women do live longer in relationships.

1:36:27They live two to four years longer. Men live four to seven years longer. It ends up that relationships accrete more value to men on average than to women. So, for example, I tell my sons, I'm curious to see what your friend thinks of this, men should pay for everything. She would not like that. I get it. I get it. My attitude is a woman's fertility window is shorter. the downside of sex is much greater for her. And there's a courting ritual amongst all animals. And one way you recognize that her time is more valuable than yours, there is courting with every mammal to say, I have valor, I'm interested, I want to show you that I'm interested, I want to demonstrate excellence, I'm paying.

1:37:11And my 18-year-old son says, oh my God, you're such a boomer. You're so pathetic. You're so pathetic. Of course we're going to split the check. And I say this and I mean it, and I have research to back this up. fine but just remember any person you split the check with you're never kissing I stand by that you stand by that I think on average women I think there's some consumer dissonance here I think friends should split the check if a woman asks you out maybe she pays fine 80 % of women ask them expect the man to ask her out still and I think if you ask a woman out you pay and if you don't and you go through this awkward thing of splitting the check just be clear, I think your chances of ever being physical with that woman dropped by about 99%.

1:37:54Goodness. Goodness. Light up. Let me see what people think. And then show me the data. Right. To back it up. And then show me the data. But what about, Scott, just having the conversation of who's going to pay? Once you're two, three dates in. But initially, initially. No. I think it's just fucking awkward, man. Well, okay. Yeah. What happened with you and your wife? I did. I paid. Okay. That's what I can't stand. You're sitting there like, Scott, you're not evolved. And everyone's always like, oh, yeah, I paid. I paid. I paid. I mean, quite honestly. And was she offended? She was not offended.

1:38:31Was she, okay, this dude doesn't get it. I'm getting him a subscription for MSNBC and then I'm dumping him. I got the kiss. Okay. I mean, there's what we think the world should be. Right. And there's the way the world is. And I'm kind of, I don't say I'm done, but I have, at my age, women just have a really, single women have a tough time finding viable men or men that aren't, you know, have eight kids. And they always say the same thing. I hang out with a very progressive crew. And, again, this is anecdotal. They always say the same thing. Like, if you have any guys that I like to be set up with, and they always say to me, by the way, distinctive, you know, my aura, I like a masculine man.

1:39:13And it's like, well, yeah, that's called being a woman. And I don't, I don't, I want to acknowledge the world needs to change. We need to change. Some women absolutely are drawn to different features in a man. But generally speaking, if you're out and you want to have a romantic or sexual relationship with a woman, part of that courtship, part of that demonstrating commitment, part of that recognition that a man's going to benefit more from a relationship, an easy way to recognize that imbalance is to pay. And I just find the whole splitting thing really weird. You want to turn a woman off? Send her what it is on Venmo, the request for it.

1:39:52Oh, yeah. And me, that is the biggest, I don't know what the equivalent of a boner killer is for women, but that's it. And I stand by that. And I've got to be honest, I'm like, every dude says the same thing. But Scott, that feels so antiquated. But Scott. It's all school. This is the modern world. Da-da-da. What did you do? Oh, I paid. I paid for everything for everything yeah absolutely I mean it's so interesting I've seen now I've seen this rising trend of a lot of men actually asking for at least half of the money back if the date went bad oh god Jesus Christ I've literally seen these texts I'm thinking this is wild this is wild alright if you've made it this far I know you're loving the conversation so please do me one small favor Hit that bell icon.

1:40:42Join our community. Thank you. How did fatherhood change how you show up in the world? How did it change any of these addictions? Look, you're going to find, how old are your kids? 15 and 11. So, and you probably already discovered this, but I won't speak for you. My whole life has been about more. I want more money. I want more interesting experiences. I want more relevance. I want more accolades. I want to be invited to more and more fabulous events. Oh, there's Saint-Tropez. Wait, I hear there's a Bista with amazing DJs. Oh, I can fly business class? Is there a first class? I heard people charter jets.

1:41:29Oh, my God, I heard there's fractional. Oh, my God, I don't want a Challenger 300. I want a 350. Wait, there's more, more, more. You know, maybe that's fundamentally fucked up. but it's always been about more. The only time I ever feel fully sated, the only time I think, okay, this is it, is occasionally there's a moment with my boys and my partner who are watching Premier League football or something, and my 15-year-old just instinctively throws his legs over mine, and the dogs are there, we're safe, everyone seems pretty happy, and it's like I can't imagine more. This is it. Like I could leave.

1:42:11Lightning strikes me now. I'd be bummed. But I feel like I had some purpose. I'm raising loving, patriotic men who feel good about themselves. This is it. And it has been a lot of work and a lot of anxiety. Like this whole Hallmark commercial that is supposed to be having kids. No, that doesn't exist. Put stress on your relationship with your wife. It gets really, it's really hard. They can be really awful. but the payoff is occasionally I feel like, okay, this is it. It's the only environment I've ever felt that in. No matter what happens professionally, economically, I've always thought there's a next level.

1:42:53There's a bigger, better deal somewhere. And maybe that's me. But the only time I've ever been like, okay, this is enough is in the company of my sons. Your sons. Do you believe your sons are proud of you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, less proud than I thought they were going to be. I thought my kids were going to be so impressed with me, and they're not. I know they love me. I think when they get older, they'll appreciate everything. But there's a very healthy instinct, you're almost there, where your kids start, in order to make the separation from the pack easier, they just start thinking you're really uncool and arguing with you.

1:43:30Some kids know, but most, Yes. And it's healthy. So I thought my kids would be really into World War II history and CrossFit because their dad was such a baller and interesting and they'd want to, they'd want nothing to do with it. I know my kids will read my book, but I know it won't be for probably another 10 years. They're just not. They're just not there. Yeah. They see my stuff on TikTok and they just roll their eyes. What's interesting is your sons become more inclined to listen to your friends when they get to a certain age than you. That's healthy. They start, the reason why we have vaccines and can put a man on the moon is younger people think these people don't get it.

1:44:05I'm going to come up with new ways. And also it makes it easier for them to leave the house and also easier for you because they become so awful at some point. You're like, well, maybe them going to college is okay. Get out. But yeah, no, I know they're proud of me. I know they love me immensely. Just importantly, I know they know I love them immensely. But yeah, your kids are going to be less impressed than you are impressive. I see it. I see it. So now in your current book, the very end, you pen something beautiful. Oh, thank you. Okay. And that's to your boys. Yeah. Have they read that letter?

1:44:47I don't know. I haven't asked them. I don't think so. I didn't, I never wanted to bring it up. I never wanted them. I never wanted my, one of my books to be required reading for them. So I know at some point they'll read it, but I haven't brought it up because I want them to approach me, and so I read the letter. So I haven't brought it up with them. Okay, okay. You know what's interesting is I have a surprise for you. All right. You ready for it? Yeah. I want you to read this for me.

1:45:20All right. This is very mysterious. It's not from the woman who doesn't like it. It's not from your friend, is it? It's not from her. Dear Scott, you are so full of shit the air around you is brown. Scott, you're not helping. Is somebody supposed to read this? Yes, please. Oh my gosh. Hey, Dad, I just want to write a little shout out to you since it's near Thanksgiving, you know. I know what you're doing here. I thought I would say that I'm thankful to have you. I love how supportive you are to me and my hobbies, whether that's trying to start some online business.

1:45:57So I'm not comfortable reading it's out loud, but I appreciate this.

1:46:07So I appreciate it. I'm just not comfortable reading it out loud. You don't have to read this one either, but I want you to. Oh, God, I can't handle another one. Come on, brother. This is unfair. This is from my other son. Yeah, beautiful.

1:46:24I appreciate that. This is a touch uncomfortable for the wrong reasons, but I very much appreciate it. So I'm going to pivot and I'm going to give you, I got one of these for you. Oh, wow. Oh, my goodness. This is.

1:46:41Your turn. Fatherhood is something, isn't it?

1:46:48Wow. I tell you what, you know, I'm getting chills even opening this. What I think you're going to find as you get older, and there's research around this, that having people love you makes you happy. But the most rewarding thing is you know they know that you love them immensely. There's this great line in a, I think it's a Wes Anderson or a Paul Thomas Anderson film, where this bartender who's alone is saying, you know, I have love to give, I just don't know where to put it. The happiest people, and there's research on this, aren't the ones that are the most loved. they're the ones who have the most people that they can love.

1:47:25And that's what you'll get as your kids get older, is you realize the gift is if they're receptive to your love and you know they know they're loved. Yes. That's sort of the shooting match. Anyways, your letter. All right. Oh, boy. All right. Dear Dad, you've helped to shape my life in more ways than I've probably ever mentioned. growing up with you has taught me so much, not just about work or the world, but about how to think, how to carry myself, how to treat other people. I admire your profound curiosity, honesty, love for all that you do and the way you always make time for me and Liam and mom, despite the 100 other things that you always have to keep up with.

1:48:13I love the way you follow your own passions and encourage us to do the same, and I will always be grateful for it. The way you've represented what masculinity is to me, being empathetic, sharing, and showing emotions, being kind and grounded are lessons I'll take for the rest of my life. Thank you for being someone I can look up to and rely on. I'm proud to be your son, and I don't say that nearly enough either. Love, Kingston. Yeah, this is, you know, it's interesting. I was about to say something. I'm going to say it and then I'm going to take it back. I was going to say, this feels so awkward, but it actually feels so right.

1:48:58Yeah, there's something about the way we're taught or raised that we have this messed up sense of masculinity that if we get emotional, that it portrays weakness. and I think it's because throughout history, if a man demonstrated weakness, there was a non-zero probability another man might kill him and take his shit. And so I think we have this kind of understandable gag reflex around reflecting emotion. But my experience with emotion, and I would recommend this to any man, I didn't cry from the age of 29 to 44. I didn't cry when my mom died when I got divorced. I had a business fail. I kind of forgot how.

1:49:42Now when I get emotional, whenever I'm around men, I can just tell them, they look at me and they're like, Jesus Christ, I wish I could do that. I want a six pack of that to go because it informs what's important to you. Like reading those letters and having emotional reaction, I'm like, I just know it informs my life. Like what's important to me. As you get older, life starts to fall or time starts to fall off a cliff. I mean, it's really weird. Years become seasons, seasons become months, months become weeks, and you just see the end. And you're like, wow, I'm running out of time. And those emotions slow time down.

1:50:19It's like a great life hack. It just slows everything down. And also it really informs your life. Yes. Yes. You know what? Well, thank you. I just pulled it out of the couch. You know, this is the first letter I think that I have received from, this is my oldest, Kingston, who wrote this. And, you know, I feel as if we all need to be writing more letters. Yeah. It's powerful. Man, what incredible holiday gift that is. Yeah. Just to write a letter to your loved one. And it stands out now. Yes. Yeah, it really is. It is very powerful. Scott, I tell you what, I could talk to you forever. Thanks, man.

1:51:05Very much appreciated this. I very much love this conversation. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you... No, I think we covered it all. I need to go home and, I don't know, be around my kids and recover. This has been very meaningful, so thank you. I very much appreciate this. Thank you so much. I tell you... You're good work. You're, in many ways, you're a better messenger for these things than me because I think people understandably have a bit of a gag reflex from a 61-year-old white male. I think they think, okay, this guy, I think they're just going to have, I'm not going to have a tougher time permeating those well-earned stereotypes and suspicions.

1:51:52Well, I will tell you from my perspective, what initially put you onto my radar was you do speak truth to power. I appreciate that. And I think that people don't understand, in my opinion, how important your voice is today. Thank you. And it is one of the few voices that I always, always listen to. And after this conversation, I will continue, continue to. Best to like to you, and thanks for this. Really appreciate it. Thank you. One last question. Yes. Everyone gets it. You've had lots of amazing conversations in your life. When you think back, which is the most memorable? Who was it with, and what did you learn?

1:52:38The thing that popped into my head was when I was about 36, I came out of the Gates Strong professionally after business school. Started a company called Red Envelope, which is an e-commerce company. Went public in 2002. And I got into war with the most powerful venture capitalists in the world at the board level. And basically, he was much more powerful than me. I was, you know, also I don't think I handled the situation well. And they kicked me off of the board. So I was basically kicked out of the band that I started. And that was devastating for me. And I was really angry and upset and trying to plot a proxy fight and everything.

1:53:20And this guy named Hamid Mogadam, who is a mentor, and he said to me, he said, he said, Scott, do you really want to serve this guy a cold lunch? I'm like, I lean in. I'm like, yeah, really, really upset and angry. I think I've been treated poorly. And he goes, he goes, you really want to take like real revenge? I'm like, yeah. of more. Yeah. He's like, I'm going to, I'm going to, he's like, you can't tell this to anyone, but I need you, I need you to promise me you're going to do this because this is the secret to revenge. And I'm like, okay. He's like, you got to trust me in this. You trust me.

1:53:53I'm like, yeah. And he goes, the best revenge is to live a fucking amazing life and never think about this person again. And it just sort of, I was not expecting that. I was expecting this drawn out strategy about how I was going to bring Sequoia Capitol to its knees or something. Right. And he was so sincere about it. There was nothing passe about it. But it has helped me a lot because I think I struggle with anger. And when I feel slighted, I start thinking about revenge and how to get back at the person. And what I realize is that, no, the best revenge is to have an amazing life such that that anger in that person just fades into the distance because you are having such an amazing life.

1:54:38That's conversation stands out to me. All right. Lesson received. There you go. Scott Galloway, thank you so much. This is rough. This is rough. Scott Galloway. This was such an important conversation for everyone to watch. But most importantly, send this to your boys. And also send this to the men in your life. He didn't say it specifically, but Scott is a very wealthy guy. he does not need to be out here doing any of this. He literally could be off on an island somewhere. But I think one of the reasons that he has picked up this mantle and he has increased his voice around this topic that is contentious is because he wants to help the people.

1:55:30And that is love. I've never seen Scott Galloway cry before. the letter from his boys was not to shake him, but to allow him to see how profound an impact he's made on their lives. I couldn't think of a word to describe two dads who just read letters from their boys and were both emotional. I wasn't tearing, but I was definitely feeling heavy. This is the shape. The only word I could use to describe it was awkward. and I knew it was the wrong it was the bad but that was just me being transparent it felt awkward but it shouldn't and I love that Scott and I were able to have then a conversation around that saying you know it shouldn't and we have to literally normalize what we just did it's one of the most memorable moments of my entire time on we need to talk

1:57:02We'll see you next time. might as well start digging out the Lounge Johns, because saving over$200 on a week-long snowcation rental is in the cards. Book now at Vrbo.com.