Toni Tone and Taiwo: The Reason Why Men AVOID Confident Women

0:00In today's episode, our guests, Tony Tone and Taiwo Ogibul bring us an inspiring look at their long distance relationship. showing how embracing self-awareness and prioritizing your own values can help build the foundation for a thriving relationship. Toni, a celebrated author, has inspired millions online by openly sharing her journey towards self-discovery and the wisdom she has learned through her relationships. Her partner, Taiwo, a tech consultant and content creator, brings his own grounded perspective on what makes a long-distance partnership work. In today's episode, we discuss how previous relationships can shape our attachment styles in the future.

0:40You said that your ex-partner was avoided. You walked in there secure. Yeah. Did I leave secure? That's the question. One thing I have learned about attachment styles in hindsight is that the way someone loves you can have a massive impact on your existing attachment style. We dive into the challenges of long-distance relationships. Long distance relationships can be very hard, particularly on women, if they don't feel reassured. It's funny because even though at the beginning it was like, I'm not moving to London. Every time he visits, he's like, yeah, that's true. I thought I was going to be here for three months.

1:18That was six years ago. And we address how breaking free from societal expectations can help build fulfilling relationships. You're saying that a piece of masculinity is emotional regulation. Yeah, I love that. A lot of guys would say that, well, that is not true. But then, if again, there are a lot of actions that men have taken throughout the centuries have been based off the emotion. Wars have been started because of... Lack of emotion. Lack of emotion. Before we get into it, just wanted to mention something interesting that we've noticed recently. About 92 % of the people watching these videos aren't subscribed yet.

1:53Now, no pressure at all, but if you're enjoying the content, subscribing is a super simple way to stay connected with us, and it also helps us out a ton when growing the channel. It's free, just takes a second, and it's hugely helpful. Either way, I appreciate you being here. So thanks for watching, and let's get into it.

2:20I adore your love. for each other and it counters a lot of the current day narrative yes you know what what you're doing is it's like the world went left you went right yes that's a good way to put it and so i really want to unpack the two of you individually and as a couple to understand what gives you that confidence to go right yeah you know and i know you've talked a lot about attachment styles. And Taiwo sounds like you had a very secure attachment as well. And so it makes sense. The two of you end up together, right? However, before you two get to each other, you're dating, right? So I would imagine you're dating in the U S yes, which I've been dating in the U S is a whole different thing.

3:10Actually, let me ask you this. Here we go. Let's, let's, Yeah, buckle in, buckle in. How would you characterize dating in the United States versus now dating a young woman from the UK? Okay. They are more intentional for people that they like. You have more intentional in the U.S. than the U.K.? No. I don't really have much information for U.K. because you're the first person out dating for the U.K. So I can only compare my experience in the U.S. to dating her. Wait, so I wasn't intentional? No, you are. He's saying you're the exception. You're exceptional. I want to be very clear. If majority of the dating scene in the UK is like how it was for me, then it's amazing.

3:57That's my answer. This is the reality. This is fair. Can we go here just for a little bit more? So one of, I always say I'm Jamaican. I've got 10 jobs, right? So one of them is that I had global research for Tinder. And one of the things that I can see is I can see what's the difference between the behaviors on the app in the United States and the UK. And one distinct behavior is that when you swipe right and you connect with someone in the UK, on average, it could take 10 days to 14 days before you start having a conversation off the app. Yeah. OK. In the US, it's like three hours. you know it's quick i'm not surprised by that quick but it's it's very quick so so in the u.s the behavior is is that let's just investigate the relationship as quickly as possible in the uk it's like look i've got tea this afternoon you know i'm gonna wait a little bit do you think it's because i feel like people think that the market is bigger there so they feel like if they don't act on it you know they might person might lose interest and find someone else.

5:07Maybe I'm thinking that could be a reason. I don't have data to back that up. That's just my assumption based on that. It could. Can you talk about, as much as you'd like to talk about your previous dating history before you met each other? And I think it's so important because it informs how you show up today. Okay. In all my dating experiences, one thing I've always known is that before I even give them a chance to go on a date, I know that I've done my vetting. There's a reason why I actually want to actually consider them to actually go on a date. So knowing that, it makes me not want to hold back.

5:49I would trust you until you give me a reason not to. So you dated a few, but then the dating is a form of vetting, I would imagine it has to be. But then from all of that, you had only then had a relationship with one person. And how old were you when you had that relationship? I was 25. 25. Yes. So it's interesting because I got married at 25. Wow. You started to go married. You said that your ex-partner was avoidant, but you walked in there secure. Yeah. Did I leave secure? That's the question. Cool. One thing I have learned about attachment styles and one thing I didn't know prior to that relationship in hindsight is that the way someone loves you can have a massive impact on your existing attachment style.

6:40Being with a secure person undid a lot of that damage, right? And I don't want to say damage in a bad way because my ex is not a bad person at all. He had things he struggled with that shaped the way he navigated the relationship and that then shaped the way I saw myself and navigated that relationship. I walked out of that relationship with a more anxious attachment style because I'd spent six years essentially of my life back and forth, to and throw, push and pull, trying to prove my value to someone in a way that encouraged them to want to commit in a traditional sense. right? I was constantly thinking about where his head was at.

7:24I wasn't getting the reassurance that I desperately wanted. And I would question myself, question my role in the relationship, question the value of the relationship. And then when I left that relationship, I remember thinking that, God, like I used to be so sure of myself and so confident when it came to love and relationships. And now I'm not so sure. And I had to do a lot of self-work before meeting a lot of self-work even uh with i wish i knew this earlier my first book people always go up to me thanking me for helping them but they don't realize in writing it i helped me yeah i wrote that book to help me to remind myself of all the things that i needed to remind myself of so i did a lot of self-work can we talk about that that practically because what you just said is something that most people I don't believe know.

8:15And that is that your partner can change your attachment. And a lot of people don't realize that you can move from being in a place of secure attachment to anxious or avoidant or anxious avoidant. And so that by itself is something that we need to say, okay, wow, this is massive. But then to your point is, but you can then flip back. Yes. Oh, yes. You could bounce back. Yeah, you could bounce back. You could bounce back. So you, you recognize that you were anxious and you needed to bounce back. You needed to do the work and everyone talks about do the work, but you did the work. Yes. What was the work?

8:53So for one, not dating. So there was, there were points in my life where like I would take like entire years out and be like, no, I need to focus on me. So eradicating that distraction, right. Knowing that I still had that work to do. There was a lot of counseling or therapy. so speaking to someone else about my experiences right and being the eldest of three siblings in an african family i did not always feel like um i could go to people not because they did not save space for me but because i i felt like i had to be the strong one right i'm yeah i'm the first born like my siblings come to me for support like i can't be burdening them with my emotional issues that like that is how I felt and I perpetuated that by not wanting to speak to people about things I was struggling with to the point that my family and friends would say after that relationship ended like are you okay because they didn't see me cry they didn't I was like it was like nothing right the way I was acting anyway and my best friend was like Tony like I'm worried for you because you seem perfectly fine and that was a relationship that took up like most of your 20s like is everything okay and I remember being oh yeah everything's cool you know you win some you lose some it is what it is you know what like I was very much whatever about it and I think the biggest thing for me was reinvesting into myself right pouring into myself because in that relationship I poured so heavily into the other person and I forgot about me I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life I didn't really understand like who I was outside of a relationship context and I had to start all over again and I had to be like okay okay, what are my values?

10:39What are my non-negotiables? Because I was blurring lines in that relationship like you were. And I was like, okay, what do I want? And I remember writing a list of like the kind of life I wanted, writing a list about the kind of like partner I wanted, writing a list about the kind of relationship I wanted, like physically writing those lists. You know, you were lost and then you found yourself. Yes, I was so lost, so, so lost. And I, yeah, I literally found myself. You found yourself and you were lost? and you found yourself. All right. So let's talk about how you find each other. Okay. Because what I understand already is that you like to do your diligence.

11:17You like to do your research. Yes. So you must have been researching Tony here. Yes. Okay. How many years were you following me before I noticed you? Yeah. I didn't know this. were you following me before I noticed you? How many years? 20, 20? Yes. COVID happened. I used to edit videos. And then I started, you know, I would send them to my family group. I'll never post them online. So I said, you know what? I don't have much to do for six months, seven months. Might as well just post the same videos I've been editing. And then I saw this lady that kept tweeting. And all her tweets seemed to align with everything I keep talking about, except that she managed to do it in fewer words.

12:00People that know me know that I do better with video content than tweets. Yes. So I would make a two-minute video talking about something. She says the same thing in one tweet. I said, you know what, let me just look for this person. I just clicked on their page and I was like, is she fine too? She's not just smart. When you hit IG, what specifically are you looking for? Back then?

12:32I'll answer. I don't have a problem. I'll answer. Back then or the IG? Back then. Back then. What were you looking for? And I'm not trying to set you up. I think the ladies need to know. Yes, right. You know, so what were you looking for? Personally, finding an attractive woman was never my issue. It was finding an attractive woman. No, no, no. I'm not saying God gives to women, you know. That's right. But when I saw her tweets and I saw what she looks like, I was like, okay. Based on what I know on a surface level, brains check, beauty check. If I was in the market, she would be great. I had this insane mindset of thinking that I need to be successful first and then find a woman.

13:20That thing keeps a lot of guys single. So this is interesting. So was it because that you were not working at the time? No, not even that. I just was obsessed with thinking that I would have to be very successful first in life before I can go and find my future life. And how would you qualify success at that time? Good question. So primarily I work in tech. And in my mind, I felt like I need to create something groundbreaking that's known, whether it's a new type of algorithm for quantum computing or it's a new type of render engine that I work on for animation. Just something really groundbreaking.

13:58one of those. And then that would be my own criteria for success. And then after that, let's find a wife. But what changed for me was one day I had to talk with one of my friends in church and he just said something really short and simple. He said, who are you to think that that's going to happen for you in that way? That life can happen in a different order, but then at the same time, what if by God's divine timing, it's not supposed to happen in that order what if you end up getting that goal and then you never find that person the person that god has assigned for you what if you miss that person because you are so focused on trying to get to that goal and never happens what if god wants you to meet that person and then push it to that part and when i did january of 2021 i think he'd been following me for like was it a year and a half two years a year and a half almost two years yeah he'd been follow me yeah can you can you believe this this is an amazing story i didn't know you saw all this i saw a video that he did where he was talking about a dating experience he had and how he took a girl on a date and she was like shocked he didn't try and sleep with her afterwards and he was basically saying that like it's actually really sad that this is the state of the world that a man respecting you and not trying to like rush this process is like shocking and when i saw that video i was like oh okay i like the way he thinks follow so i followed him and then when i went to our messages i'd seen that say and i ja mentioned mentioned you in 2021 mentioned you in 2020 mentioned you tonight so he had been like posting my content on his stories and tagging me and i just did not see any of it i've always strategically positioned myself and see if the guy approaches me right and then with taiwo i think i i attempted that several times i literally message my girls to say, you see this Thai and Niger guy on this, I said, I'm done with this dude.

15:53The day I say to my girls, I'm done, I get a message from him saying that, oh, he wants to have a chat with me on the phone. I was like, look at God! God literally heard me say I have given this man, I'm done with him. Hypothetically for women listening, the world is not going to end if you make the first move. And I think for a lot of women, if it's not fear of rejection, rejection it could be like feeding into these very traditional views that a man should make the first move right a man should show he's interested how soon after tony that phone call did you send the tweet saying that you've met your future husband so the tweet the first thing that happens the tweet came afterwards the first thing was me messaging my mom and my friend that same friendship chat where i was like i'm giving up on this guy and my mom was like hey slow down this is it for me i can tell and my gut has told me this is it and they were like whoa i've heard you talk about your demisexual yeah right and i'd love for you to explain so what is demisexuality okay so um a lot of people experience like sexual attraction off the bat right they can be sexually attracted to someone walking through a room i can acknowledge that men are attractive men but there is absolutely nothing within me that feels any type of sexual desire or arousal for them in any way right that only comes after i have developed an emotional connection to them based on who they are and the character so it like for example um i've never had a one night stand i've never met someone in a club and um kissed around in person look at my girlfriends will see a guy and be like oh he can get some i'm like no no no one can ever get anything unless i know them we have to have three months of long conversation first yeah literally literally demisexuality is when someone only feels sexual attraction after forming a deep emotional bond unlike others with sexual orientation based on instant attraction which is often called allosexuality.

17:59A demisexual person needs a connection rooted in someone's character and values. You might even be demisexual without realizing it. And knowing your orientation can be powerful. It helps you understand your own needs, set healthy boundaries, and feel validated in how you experience attraction. Recognizing this about yourself can lead to more fulfilling and authentic relationships. You're living in two different countries. And now you have to begin to manage this relationship. So what have you learned? What are some of these lessons around how do you keep this relationship together? How do you keep it hot?

18:39How do you keep it sexy? And I want to say, you know, in full transparency, I hope he doesn't get at me. This is I have a really good friend who's living, you know, away from from his from his partner, actually away from his wife. they're having a tremendously hard time they see each other infrequently and they've begun to talk about emotional infidelity and and which to some people hits much harder than than physical and so how do you manage this relationship living in two different countries i feel like long distance relationships can be very hard particularly on women if they don't feel reassured i feel entirely reassured in this relationship based not just on his words but on his actions i am the number one priority i never feel like i'm not right so i would say like that's a big thing and that makes um that makes the oh why am i getting teary i feel like um he he loves me in a way that i don't question anything you know and i've never been loved like that before where where I could be on Mount Everest right but I'm I'm so sure of the love he has for me because he loves me harder than I feel like I love him it was the first time in my life being with someone and feeling like oh like they're out loving me but it's beautiful I'm crying because I'm just like I feel so blessed to have like met him and to have this kind of love because I know that not everyone experiences it.

20:21But the distance is easy because he loves me with everything, you know? Isn't it so beautiful to see your life's journey and to be able to see, I mean, to see the two of you. You know, we all go through the storm in life, but the sun always comes out and it shines bright. You know, I'm curious about is beyond the wedding, then what does the relationship look like? Do we move to the same city or do we stay? because a lot of relationships now are still living apart, but together. Yeah, that's true. So what's the plan? So we actually kind of talked about that on our very first call. But then, yes.

20:59So we kind of... On the 90-minute call. On the 90-minute call. Yeah. You already had it worked out. We are already planning on, you know, the long-term plans on where we're going to live in Houston. For me, it was like, okay, on a logical level, we are where we are. What makes sense for us, right? And then, and it's funny because even though at the beginning it was like, I'm not moving to London. Every time he visits, he's like, yeah, that's true. I might convince you. I thought I was going to be here for three months. That was six years ago. I wonder, because there must be, even though you're long distance, there still must be conflict.

21:35There must be disagreements. No, yeah, we have disagreements. So how do you manage conflict, especially because it's long distance? Well, in the beginning, I had to adjust. Because typically in conflict, in relationships, I would need time to myself to manage my thoughts, if you will. And I think when you're physically in the same space, it's much easier to do that because the person knows, oh, she's in the other room. I'm in my room and we're both taking some downtime. right but when you're completely away from each other it can appear as if you're withdrawing so i had to adjust because sometimes we'd have conflict and i'd be like i'm trying to speak to this man i'm just he's calling me i'm like i'm picking up this phone call like i'm i'm not trying to talk to him and after he expressed that look if we have conflict because he said to me because of the distance we should try and resolve it as soon as possible because unlike other couples we're not in the same vicinity you know like other couples they argue then they make up or they physically make up or they kiss and hug and it's all hunky-dory we can't do that all we have is communication so if i'm limiting communication then that's going to hurt more than it's going to help the goal is talk talk talk talk talk if we have to be on the phone for four hours we have to on the phone four hours but we're going to talk until we get to a resolution that's interesting because a lot of the advice that you'd hear like the Gottmans for example you know they talk about how you get into a disagreement there's conflict you're emotionally flooded right and so it's very hard to then resolve if you're emotionally flooded so the best thing to do even if you're you're you're long distance is give it time give it space get to a point where you're regulated and then you can resolve it if that means later in the day or if that means tomorrow.

23:37But your approach, it sounds like, is, okay, what we're going to do is we're just going to stay on the task and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk until you just get tired. You're like, ah, whatever. The reason we agreed on that approach is because whenever we have an argument, the goal is not to try and be right. It's to try and understand each other's perspective. I always say that. It's to understand each other's perspective. That has worked for us beautifully. It might take hours of calls, but it's worth it because I've always told her that if we take time off and revisit the issue two, three days later, we're not together.

24:14It gives people room to assume or start having different thoughts about the other person in their absence. So face it while you can, as soon as you can, to prevent the other person from overthinking. I understand why the Gottmans say what they say, because to do what we do, I do think you have to have a certain personality type. Now, if you're someone who is highly strong, then by all means have that time, because you don't want to end up in a situation where you say something you regret or you do something you regret. We approach it with a level of calm, right? Taiwo is very gentle. Like, I've never seen you get, like, angry.

24:56He thinks he's better. I've never seen this anger. What's the struggle when I say, all your anger? He loves to say, all your anger cannot boil beans. I say that all the time. All your anger cannot boil beans. He says that all the time. And I think because we both have this personality type, even when we're at the height of, I'm so pissed off, we can sit down and be like, bruh. What are we doing about this? Tony and Taiwo show us that there's no one-size-fits-all approach to handling conflict in relationships. Now, if you look back at our episode with the Gottmans, they suggest taking space to cool off.

25:30Tony and Taiwo stay connected through talking through their disagreements for hours if needed. Now, I love how they demonstrate that you can apply your own rules to your relationship. Remember, different strategies work for different people. what do you believe is the biggest misconception about your relationship and and that's a good question i've never thought about that and and here's here's why i want to unpack it is that and one of the reasons of like 20 why i wanted to have you two here is that i think that you know you two are very apparent online yeah very present online and there's one school of thought that says you know what when you're in real love don't showcase that oh my god that is the biggest misconception okay okay okay the biggest misconception is that it cannot be as good as it looks because we are public about it and we joke we always joke that it's better behind closed doors and that is the biggest misconception that if you post your wife you post your husband and you share anything about your relationship, that it has to be very flawed in some way.

26:44And I find it funny, to be fair, I find it funny because obviously, like, Paul, I follow you, you post your wife, post your kids. I get the same thing. So you're answering for me right now. And I don't know you personally on that deep level, but I have faith in your relationship that it is what it is. I understand the logic to a degree, but at the same time, there are always outliers and it's not one rule for everybody. I think the biggest misconception about him, because he is a stereotypically attractive black man who lives in Houston, Texas, who works in Texas. I know where this is going. I feel like some people believe there is no way he can be as loving and as nice and as loyal as he is.

27:32One thing that kept me single was I would go out to an event and then I'll talk to someone and immediately they would say, you're a bad demon. That's a term people used to say like, oh, you're a cheetah or something like that. And I would ask them, are you joking? And they would say, no, I'm serious. and I'll just say, have a good day. You are preparing to fail. Why should I go further with that? Great for me. You're assuming that I'm already up to no good just by seeing me without giving me a chance. So at least I just want to say thank you to them for keeping me. Keeping you single. Keeping you single, yeah.

28:06So thank you. It was great for me. And I think generally people are of the opinion that attractiveness is synonymous with infidelity. Do you know what's funny? Paul, I actually think it's the opposite. I don't know whether there's data to pack this up, but this is my theory. So people think if someone is highly attractive, that there is no way they can be law in a relationship because they have an array of options potentially, right? When I actually think that if someone is attractive, because they are used to getting attention, and because they have an array of options, they have the privilege of being more choosy, right?

28:41And because they are more selective and more choosy, there is no excitement and rush when someone shows their attention because it's like I have options. I don't need to take every option that comes my way because I can choose when I wish to to take up certain opportunities with people. Right. But if you're someone who you don't get much attention, then attention may potentially mean way more to you. and you want to grasp every every woman that comes your way because oh my god she's showing me attention but if you're used to getting it all the time everywhere it you're kind of desensitized right people say oh like medium ugly because when a guy's too hot like they can't be trusted and i'm like why if he's attractive like why does that mean that he's not gonna have certain values and he's not gonna be there's zero correlation between attractiveness and Absolutely not a combination.

29:35Why do they build that? Being societally, stereotypically attractive and leading that to infidelity. I'm like, no, I actually think, no, maybe it's, I would probably say maybe it's the opposite, actually. So this begs the question, what is a good man? It's someone that keeps to his word. It's someone that's able to take on ownership of responsibilities, whether it's for his family or his partner. And it's someone that's able to show kindness to people regardless of who they are and where they're coming from. That is very important. As a man, I feel like you should be able to regulate those emotions in a very healthy amount.

30:14And you should be able to express that because, you know, I feel like that's a very important aspect that drives our actions as human beings. You're saying that a piece of masculinity is emotional regulation. Yes. I love that. Yes. I've not heard it said like that succinct before. But to me, that, you know, balances. So that to you is that's masculinity. That's modern masculinity. A lot of guys would say that, well, that is not true. But then, if again, there are a lot of actions that men have taken throughout the centuries have been based off their emotion. Wars have been started because of anger and emotion.

30:53Running your own business? Listen in for a great offer from today's sponsor, Shopify. You know when you go on an amazing first date and you get that rush of excitement? It's the same thrill business owners get when they hear Shopify's iconic... Another customer, another sale, another reminder that someone out there loves what you've got to offer. I've got plenty of products in the pipeline, but finding a platform to house them on has been a challenge. Until I found Shopify. It's the commerce platform where I can sell in multiple places like TikTok and Instagram. And it's all done through the same customizable online store.

31:35Shopify has the tools to take your business to the next level. And now you can try it for one pound per month while the period applies. Head to shopify.co.uk forward slash need to talk and let me know how you get on. I need to come clean. and tell you about the love affair I've been having these last two years. But before you start thinking that I'm disloyal, don't worry, my wife knows everything. Because even Jill can't ignore how truly, madly, deeply in love I am with the new show sponsor, Huel. Hand on my heart, I carry up to three Huel's with me every day. Some might even call me a hardcore Huel drinker.

32:17And they'd be right, I am. My days start early, so drinking my ready-to-drink black edition vanilla is such a convenient way for me to fuel my body with great nutrition. But the part I love most is Huel is a complete meal packed with 35 grams of protein plus 26 vitamins and minerals to help me thrive. So whether I'm traveling, on set, or recording, I know Huel will keep me feeling good. If you're tempted to have a love affair of your own, visit Huel.com and use code Paul for 15 % off your next order. That's H-U-E-L dot com. So I went through your two books, pulled out a million things. I think given how we've talked, it would take us 10 hours to go through all of these.

33:05So almost like in quick fire, I want to ask you about some of these concepts. And Ty will please jump in on these. All right. So the first one is on gut instinct. You kind of have talked about that. That was like the impractical even. But it's something that you deeply believe in is gut instinct. So what is it? What is gut instinct? Why is it so important in relationships? So gut instinct, I would describe as a physiological feeling. Like it's a feeling you have in your being that something is either right or wrong, right? Now, people often assume that gut instinct comes from nowhere. But I actually think that that gut instinct is a physiological response to something that is actually happening, right?

33:52Or has happened. It could be a subconscious observation. So, for example, some women will say, have a gut feeling he's cheating, right? the gut feeling that they think has come from nowhere is because something has changed in their partner's habits or behavior even if subtly that they have subconsciously picked on that is feeding this gut feeling or you may have a gut feeling this person's a bad person i have a gut feeling the gut feeling may be because of body language because when they're talking to you they might not be looking you in the eyes it could be because of of just how they move when they're around you they could they could be uh uh putting facing your back towards you and you think this gut feeling is this whimsical thing when in reality it's a subconscious observation that is feeding a physiological response so i say to people that pay attention to your physical pay attention to your body pay attention to your gut pay attention to how you feel when you are around people pay attention to whether you feel scared you feel afraid pay attention to whether you feel comfortable you feel at peace like for example they say that um when you're with someone that makes you feel comfortable you often feel very sleepy around them because you feel yeah because you there's a willingness to rest if you fall asleep you're not scared of what could happen because of the comfort that they provide i've never heard of that but that makes sense well that is incredible so i would say yeah that's gut instinct to me it's pay attention to your body's physical response to your surroundings and to the people around you.