We Staged Our Paparazzi Photos And Split The Money! We're Talking Reality TV "Villains"

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0:04Harry Jowsey:Translating. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney+. You could say that again. Critics are calling it Pixar's funniest movie ever and a wildly entertaining ride. Blizzard Potato. It's certified fresh and verified hot. Now we party. This is incredible! Wow, I am clear in the rest of the day. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers now available on Disney+. Rated PG. Welcome to We're Talking. In this episode, Spencer Pratt and Harry Jowsey pull back the curtain on the reality TV machine. From staged storylines and villain edits to the strategy behind turning screen time into fame.

0:58Harry Jowsey:I feel like The Hills blurred this line between, is it real? It's like it ushered in what we call now structured reality, right? I think it was like the first prominent show to do that. So what I'm wondering is that when you were going into a scene, how structured was the scene? How produced was the scene? Heidi, her first season, she was as real as can be, no struck, doing, you know, maybe they structured her job and put her in the school that she couldn't afford, even though they had LC. They paid for LCs and then it made it so Heidi couldn't afford it. So she had to drop out and kind of without Heidi knowing, they were structuring being, you know, so she wasn't in play on it.

1:45I mean, this is blowing my mind because even you getting into the show,

1:50Harry Jowsey:you orchestrated that. There's so many people that you could go right now and go have dinner with them, witnesses, with the whole plan. And it went too far, obviously, because as you get deeper, you're like, you know, you've got to keep pushing the envelope of making TV. And as a real person, you're now sabotaging your existence. Yes. You know, that's why I never, you know, even though when I lost the plot, I didn't lose the plot. Because it was the same path I always planned to go down. You got to be the Simon Cowell. And I didn't watch whatever Simon Cowell was. I'm like, who's Simon Cowell?

2:27Everybody hates him. I was like, that's easy. I should have known, but I was dumb. The Simon Cowell can be that because he's telling people that suck at something the truth. And sometimes the truth comes off, but he's still telling you, don't quit your day job because he knows you got no chance. So I didn't have that grounding for my behavior. So it didn't let the audience be like, oh, he's just doing that because people believe the show is real. So when you said it was the first, like, is it real? I never experienced anybody to this day. People are finally now like, oh, really? But at the time, nobody thought it was fake.

3:08Harry Jowsey:Right. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I'm with you. Oh, yeah. It was like, I remember when I used to watch wrestling when I was a little boy. I was like, oh, this is real. Like, you know, WWF, I was like, this is real. It wasn't until much later, I was like, oh, my God, they're staging all this. I think it was the same way with The Hills. It was. Yeah. People took it way too serious. Also, my biggest mistake, or not, I never watched one episode until two years ago when I was making some TikTok series where I was showing all the Frankenbiting. If you don't know what Frankenbiting is, it's where right now you can film the back of my head talking to you and then I'll go do a voiceover and we put a whole new sentence to what I was saying to you in post.

3:54or I call Heidi right now, but then they have somebody else on the other end in the footage. So I'm saying all this stuff. Oh, Heidi, I love you. So beautiful. And they put some other woman in the edit and she's like, oh, you shouldn't be saying. So that's the type of stuff. So years later, I was like, I'm gonna make a TikTok series, but I didn't even know how bad it was. You know, what they were really doing. I thought I was the puppet master, but I was just full puppet.

4:23Harry Jowsey:You were full. I was getting played. So that was the joke on me. Yeah. And at what moment do you first realize from the public's reaction of how they're seeing you show up, like your character show up? I remember once we were sitting at my favorite, now Burndown, but Cafe Vita in the Palisades early on. And we were sitting, some breakfast quesadillas or whatever, and a car goes by and all these girls are screaming, fuck, yeah, flicking. I was like, oh, wow. But at the time I was like, dang, I'm so famous. Like, you know, like, cause it was still that type of, that's when you, when people are yelling at you out a window, you are like, you did it.

5:08Harry Jowsey:You did it. It's the first thing I framed in my room, in my childhood room was Star Magazine. It was called the Yucco meter and had a meter and it said Yucco and like, it was like a cartoon and have my face and I had it all max yuck and I framed it on the wall. I made it. That was you. Yeah. That was you. So you were proud of that. Oh, do you know how hard it was to get into a tabloid back then? That's what people forget. Tabloids were for movie stars. Okay. Period. Okay. Paris Hilton broke in as a socialite, just looking like a straight billionaire, Aries, skinny, little dresses, looking, that's how she got in.

5:50but nobody was on a show just being Joe Schmoe, no pun intended, there was a show Joe Schmoe.

5:55Harry Jowsey:Joe Schmoe. But yeah, Joe Schmoe was in a tabloid. So for both the plan and real life. So I was like, I just hacked in the whole matrix. You made it. Yeah. You made it. Yeah. Now you said, previously you just said, like, I lost the plot, but I didn't. Walk me through that. Yeah. I mean, just I didn't understand because this is an era where TV aired once. And if you didn't buy the DVDs, you're never seeing that again. So my brain and formula never saw streaming, Twitter, TikTok, Reels, all these things. My brain never saw that. So I was like, I can do anything every Monday or Tuesday night. You know, this is going to go away.

6:42I'll be lucky if people remember what happened on this show in that version of entertainment. So my plan went very sideways, realizing now there's this permanent record of this, which I would have made it out like a bank robber if the new media platforms didn't exist.

7:07Harry Jowsey:Okay, but at that time 2006 to 2010 so we're talking what like YouTube is just coming into Yeah, nobody's no one's on no one any socials No, I mean I'm sure if somebody be like YouTube so big but I I didn't have a YouTube account and I'm a TV star famous, right, you know, right, right How did how did it feel for you when you were going around LA or traveling the reaction that you were getting? I mean, I was so famous that people, when they, I always said that people can say anything behind, but when they meet you and you got the, now they say it, the aura or whatever, that fame, power, which was so much more magnified then because of the power of media in the traditional sense, because now it's so fragmented and it's all over.

7:57there's so many people get there if you're into this little niche you're in this little pocket this but this was forced on you you didn't even you were had to see my face you had to see clip it was you had no choice now you can choose and so with that power of fame that energy out in public it's like you know i that's why my ego is my ego you couldn't be more famous I couldn't have been.

8:26Harry Jowsey:Right. They're putting our portraits next to Obama in the fanciest restaurant in Beverly Hills. You know, Brad Pitt, Obama. So I don't care what they're airing on the show. Right. So you just, because you like that feeling, you then feed into what's happening on the show even more. Oh, well, I like the feeling of money more. Okay. And without that feeling. That was your goal. Yeah. And so the more of that feeling, the more money that comes. This makes sense. So it's like, and then it goes dark when you find out, oh, the more money, oh, now they're going to cut it off because they don't actually want to pay more money to get that anymore.

9:07They can get it cheaper with Jersey Shore.

9:10Harry Jowsey:Oh, I see. I see. So I remember I was once, I was listening to some media scholars and they were talking about a term called meta villainy. Have you ever heard about this? And you know what? You know who they referenced in it? You. I love it. And they said, okay, that you were one of the first people ever on television to not only play the role of the villain within the show, but then to manipulate the system outside of the show. Well, there was more money actually outside of the show for doing these interviews and comments in the magazines. and so they sell your photos. So maybe not more, but a lot of money.

9:56So then you're doing it outside of, you know, in a perfect world, I would have been making so much on the show that I would have no media.

10:05Harry Jowsey:And then in that managing or manipulation or whatever of the system, that involves like calling the paparazzi. You called your, like before, the paparazzi were showing up themselves, but it sounds like you were calling the paparazzi. Well, we made a partnership with them 50-50. Did you? Yeah. So we worked every photo almost from the second Heidi and I met, we were 50-50 with every photo sold and licensed. So I want to say like legit millions were made in paparazzi photos. Just paparazzi photos. Of things that we staged with them. And we'll go get the props and go rent a boat and like do the Titanic shot on the front of the boat and then open the box of shoes and then you know may sell it you know yeah wow you were running it I mean that's why I was that's why I kept going you know and then just so that how did you you so how at what moment do you feel like you've you lost the plot Jersey Shore I mean it's that simple once I knew once I saw Jersey Shore come I was like game over and why because they were unbelievable you know you cannot I was the only one with Heidi that cared about trying to make the show good.

11:20Everyone else, it was the early, now it's called image crafting. They were all professional image crafters. They were like, we don't want to be like Heidi and Spencer. They did their best to keep it where then you see the Jersey Shore, you got a whole cast that doesn't even need to make it up like Heidi and Spencer. They're just like a tornado. The writing's on the wall.

11:43Harry Jowsey:Really? Game over. With that being said, where you stand right now, when you reflect back on the Hills, just specifically that period, do you have any regrets? Oh, no. I would have gone harder. Would have gone harder? I would have made it so the Jersey Shore never even showed up. They wouldn't even have taken the pilot. They'd have been like, we got the Tasmanian devil over here. This man five more days. Yeah, I got too cozy. I started phoning it in. Even though I look great, I should have hired my own writers i should you know yeah write some ideas bring in some bringers in my click you know i was like just like getting whoever to film with me i should have been you know like i had the i had the the arc i should have loaded it you should have gone yeah i did not think you would say that yeah yeah how do you when you look at reality tv now um what i notice especially with the shows that I do is I feel like every, not everyone, but there's always multiple people who want to be the villain.

12:46Well, now it's a, like a spot, you know, let me tell you, I would advise them, be careful what you wish for. You know, it's, here's what the problem with being the villain is. The villain, when you're part of the, like a franchise works. If you're just doing a one-off, you're going to get those hits, you're going to get those views, you are going to not get followers. Because a lot of people do this, get followers. People, when it really comes down to it, people don't follow people they don't like. Yeah, there's people that'll follow to hate and just be like, send, you know, they'll ghost follow you to like troll and be like, but the goal of fame is for people to genuinely like you, to want to be connected to you, to want to live through you, through experiences so if you go on a show you're gonna go on a dating show you're gonna get that boom little pop everyone's like oh i saw you in the show if you want to keep being connected to fame and attention there's not a you know and i learned that the hard way if you are a villain but it's from like like heartfelt like back to simon cowell right he was a villain good example But it had heart behind it.

13:57So, like, if I could go back to being a villain, I would have been way more cautious. Like, you know who did it great as a villain is like a Scott Disick.

14:05Harry Jowsey:Yes. People just, he just said what he was thinking. A lot of times it was the truth. You know, he also didn't have them editing against him. It's harder if there's an agenda to, like, literally, like, there was a deal in place with LC to make Heidi and Spencer the worst human beings are to keep LC. going oh really oh so that's hard to you know combat even if you're strategic so there's only so much you know but if you don't have that type of situation because that's very rare like if you're just going on a one-off what you just said i'm literally going to clip and send because i see it all the time what you just said is the gospel is that when you see a lot of these contributors go on these one-off shows they want to be the villain because they want the a storyline But to your point, no one follows.

14:56Harry Jowsey:No one likes that. There's no merchandise or commercial deals that come as a result of that. So why play that? But it's so rampant now that I was talking to a producer not long ago, and he said that there are people who teach you to be a villain on reality TV shows. There's literally training for it. You know, again, go for it. I'm also not saying don't do it. Like if you're fine with, you just want to work that angle and, you know, you can work and then go to the Bad Girls franchise. You know, Zeus will take you or whatever. You know, there is. There's a space. There's somewhere. But I'm just saying if you, if you're not a villain, you know, some people want to be villain are villains.

15:39Like, you know, you're probably a bad guy if you want to be a bad guy. You know, I wanted to be rich and I didn't get the choice to be the hero. They were like, you're not coming on. you know, this show's done. Like I was like, oh, this is what I am going to do. And I saw long-term possibility. Also, my plan worked. I'm going to go on this show, make it so good, they're going to give us our own show, Brody. And what did MTV do? They gave us our own pilot. But we were so good. My, again, dumb ass was like, no, we're good. We don't want the show that you're giving us on our own. Let's stay on the hills because there was more money now in the hills.

16:19but I should have been like, bye, go do my own thing with Brody, build up and get that.

16:25Harry Jowsey:Can I ask, if you can, how much were you making on the hills? Once it got to peak, I think it was like 120 ,000 episodes. 120 episodes, not bad. 120 ,000 did a lot more in 2008 than what 120 ,000 does right now. Yeah, not bad. I was just on my own war path. I would have played the game Kim K another expert at that Kim coming up 7 days a week meetings everybody who's super successful that I've watched they work with I was just like fair enough

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18:10Harry Jowsey:So, too hot to handle. You don't know what the show is. do you know what so what is your objective though with the show is it still make my friends laugh be a meme be a meme that was a that was a goal that was it yeah i remember just like because my friend my best friend christian who was also from the first show i did and we're living together he's like dude this meme stuff there was like early on it's like this meme stuff like if you become a meme that's the goal and i'm like okay i'm trying to figure out how to become a meme so I went in with like random things to say and like a handshakes for the boys like it was very strategic like I made the first day with the guys because I was the only one there oh I think maybe another guy but only one there that had done a show before so I knew at the end of this we're not gonna be friends we're not gonna like each other we're all big personalities we're all going back to different parts of the world first show with like an international cast too so like I don't really care about these people so I told all the guys look in the interviews I'm talking shit about you just remember that you're probably um gonna feel some type of way when you like watch it back so just remember if talk shit about me because I'm gonna be going in on you and they're like no we're all gonna be friends I was like I promise we won't be I'm not gonna be a friend after this I've got friends and I'm good on this so I think that's what helped me too because then as soon as they sit down in the interview they're like Carrie's dragging me I don't even I probably wasn't even I was probably crying about something else um so it was just like trying to plant like just trying to be strategic to make sure that I was guaranteed screen time.

19:38Yes. Because you don't know what you get on these shows.

19:40Harry Jowsey:You know what? One is thank you for being honest about that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because, I mean, I've done a million reality TV shows now. Yeah. Not as the person, but more so as the host, right? All right, good. Yeah. That's probably way more fun. But what I've noticed is that I feel as if most come in methodical. Yeah. Right? But those who come in most methodical, at least what you do is you set your expectation. You could get what it is that you need out of it. Instead of feeling like you were manipulated. When you do a movie or a scripted show, you know the screen time you're going to get.

20:15I'm in this scene. I'm not in this scene. My shit, I was like, okay, I don't care. I don't care. Regardless of the edit, I've got no choice on that. Obviously, if I say nice things, nice things will be put in. if I say bad things bad things will be put in but I was just like I legitimately all I want to do is guarantee I'm in the show because there was some people there that like fully like and all the shows I've done that just disappear and it comes to the last week and they're like oh my god I have to do something I have to cause drama whatever else but I also think that if you're going to do a reality show if you're thinking like that you can also ruin your chances because you see it as well people come in and they go on their interview and they're like okay I'm thinking about what I'm gonna say the difference with me is I don't care what I'm saying I'm just gonna say how I feel and say whatever else like oh that guy's got like I remember there was a girl I said you got like chalky teeth and that guy's got like big fingernails like I would literally whatever I whatever I could to like just at least like I do I want you to get that sound by whatever else I see a lot of other people that come in with the mentality I think when I did perfect match one of the girls was like this is my rebrand I'm like girl you're on a hook up show this is your rebrand it's probably not a good idea but she would sit there and you could see her like being calculated and it just looks like you're lying and being deceitful i think too

21:35Harry Jowsey:is that a lot of people don't realize how hard it is too for the contributors oh my god because to that point is like they take your cell phones that like they take everything yeah you're in a bubble you have the producers in your ear you begin to question dude like am i thinking this is actually happening it's crazy it's mental warfare it's and some people really it there's some people it's like you need to never be on a show because it's not easy because you you actually can't trust anyone like you don't have your friends you don't have your family and you sure as fuck can't trust the producers because like they're gonna say things whether good or bad it's to benefit the storyline and it's to get what they need out of you like very it's very fascinating now that i've done a ton of them that i'm like oh okay like thank god i like was carefree early on and like didn't really like think about anything too much because you see other people that like will hear something from a producer like oh i don't know if he actually likes you like i think he said something bad to someone else and then you see him spiral because the thing is on these shows is you don't have anything to do but think so you're sitting there thinking about everything it's the worst it's crazy it's the worst you know what's wild about that is everyone talks about how like we're so distracted in the world yeah but when you have nothing to do with it.

22:52Harry Jowsey:It's the most dangerous thing. The most dangerous. Yeah. Because I remember being on a show and we'd sit there and we'd all be like chilling and then someone would be like, the curtain's different today. Or like, I see that they put an extra plant in there. I'm like, yo, what the fuck? They're like, something's happening today. Like, there's an intruder coming. I'm like, what? Like, yeah, there's a bombshell because there's a new pot plant. Right. And they'd be like, yeah, no, the chef didn't put out orange juice this morning for breakfast. someone here someone's gay yeah careful like god there's no oj on the table yeah yeah they're like so you didn't put three ice cubes in it you're gonna die yeah it's fascinating and then you just spiral from there that's all you do and then you get someone on board and once you have someone on board with your thought process the whole place is falling down it's like guys look at that quick we have to go over here we have to go see that like see there's an extra camera there see that camera is pointing towards the toilet someone must have been in there hooking up like it was so crazy yeah but it's fun it is fun like i think it's fun it seems like well actually let me not put words in your mouth okay what do you think allowed you then to thrive in that environment i think the thing that allowed me to thrive is i just life is fun and like i just have that mentality of like okay like this isn't like that it's like a crazy holiday you know like I get to go and have fun and get drunk and hook up with people and whatever else like sure it's all on camera but then um I don't know I just never really overanalyze anything like I just be like okay cool like we're here to make a really good show but also like I'm a fun guy like I'm not gonna sit there and stress if someone's shoelace is a different color or if there's a new pop art or like this is going on like i'll just be like all right like i'm just gonna be fun here and enjoy it and that was the best thing is because my goal is like make my friends laugh yeah it seems like you stayed with that goal that's the only thing yeah it's like i just gotta make my people happy what do you think would most shock people especially about too hot to handle from behind the scenes i think how many people were actually having sex so do you know the show at all or yeah but but for anyone who doesn't okay yeah you can explain it so the the premise of the show is they have a bunch of horny people and if you kiss every show i guess yeah you know every yeah you kiss spoon make out have sex do anything you lose money off the prize fund and there's a hundred thousand dollars up for grabs and yeah anytime someone does that stuff it loses money off the And now all the new seasons of Toward the Hand, people try and kiss and have sex right away to get the screen time.

25:35Yeah.

25:36Harry Jowsey:I think whenever you have a second, third, fourth series of the show, it's almost never as good as the first, because everyone is trying to go back and replicate what they saw. Here's my idea. This is what I told them. And it obviously didn't go anywhere. I said, if someone has sex, you should delete their Instagram. Oh, damn. That means something. Dude, shackle, chain, everything, literally every log around me, duct tape, everything. I'm like, literally, I'll be up in a tree. You're right. I'm not even talking to anyone. And that's what I said. I said, look, if you, that would be a good curveball, but it'd have to be like a live show like Love Island or some shit.

26:15It's like, oh, look how many followers you got now. Well, if you mess this challenge up, it's going to get deleted or like banned for a week.