Why Happy Couples Still Fight & “69% Of Problems Never Go Away”

0:00Welcome to We're Talking. In this episode, I sit down with the Gottmans to ask whether marriage is outdated and what actually makes a relationship last.

0:23Many people believe, perhaps more people than ever before believe, that marriage is outdated. So I ask you, is marriage outdated? Uh-uh.

0:37John Gottman:You know, I think when you consider that the divorce rate has been at 50%, you know, for decades now or a little below that, and you realize that now the children who grew up in divorced families are looking at other relationships, their faith in marriage has been broken. because, you know, most of them started in some kind of intimate relationship family that then separated. So how can they have faith when the two people, or if they grew up with two people, broke apart? And what we've seen with kids is that more than anything, kids want their parents to love each other. It's not just getting individual love.

1:33John Gottman:They want their parents to love each other. That's why they try so hard after parents have divorced to reconnect them, reunite them. That's what they want to see. And so it's so terrifying for them to enter into a marriage when their example is a broken one. And most sociologists really think that we've seen an evolution of marriage to a new level where people are getting divorced for a new reason now, which is that the marriage doesn't fulfill self-actualization goals, professional development goals. And so, you know, it used to be, and really in 1800, companion in marriage evolved, getting married for love and friendship and intimacy.

2:26That was a new idea in 1800. And we've lived with that for a long time. But now there's another reason to get married. So it's kind of like marriage has transformed over time to be something very different than it was. And so this new demand really makes it kind of scary to get married because not only does the marriage have to fulfill the love of your life, great sex, romance and passion forever, a great place to raise children and find other meanings together as a couple, as a family. But also now it has to really fulfill individual goals. And that's kind of terrifying. And when people sort of think about entering into a relationship that faces all those challenges in the context of that huge divorce rate that we've seen for so long, a lot of people are saying, I don't want to do that.

3:30Yes. You know, it's enough to just build my own career or my own, you know, success at a job and, you know, maybe have occasional relationships, you know, so I'm not totally lonely. A lot of people are opting out.

3:44John Gottman:Particularly, I think, women, because, you know, women had to marry basically to have some kind of social status, to be financially taken care of, to fulfill their role as a woman, which typically meant have kids, raise kids. So now that women return to the workforce in the 70s, they get their self-esteem from their careers, their work. They get their financial independence that way. So they don't have the same kind of need to marry that they used to. And with the freedom to not marry, many are choosing not to. On the other hand, in the last 50 years, we've seen the emergence of this field of social epidemiology, which has shown that relationships that have trust and commitment confer these amazing health benefits.

4:51And in the context of modern medicine, it's really a relationship that provides this resilience from illness and longevity between 15 and 17 years longer than if you're not in a good relationship. If you're in a happy, stable relationship, you get so much. And children, as Julie pointed out, really flourish in a loving relationship between parents, whether they're gay or lesbian or heterosexual parents. It's really immaterial. And so relationships confer an enormous amount if there is trust and commitment. Yes. But if there isn't. So the work of Jim Cohen is very interesting. You know, that hand-holding research, you know, where people...

5:39John Gottman:Describe it, sweetie. So one partner is in the functional MRI tube, and they're either holding the hand of a stranger holding the hand of nobody or holding the hand of their loved ones. And meanwhile, the person in the functional MRI tube is going through a kind of aversive conditioning situation where if they see a red cross, 15 % of the time they get a shock to the big toe of one of their feet. So what they're looking at in the brain is the amygdala, the fear center of the brain, lighting up. Well, if you're holding the hand of somebody that you love and are committed to, the fear center shuts down, even in this really weird situation where you're getting the electric shock.

6:33If you're holding the hand of a stranger, you don't get that benefit at all. The same thing as holding nobody's hand. And when Cohen did the research for gay and lesbian couples, even before the Supreme Court in the United States allowed marriage, gay marriage, if they felt committed to the person, if they felt that they were married sort of in their minds, they got all the health benefits and they got that reduction of the fear system. But if they didn't, then they got the benefits from a stranger, not from their lover. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. So they They're more open to being comforted from a stranger than from their lover.

7:16There you go. Fascinating. That is fascinating. You know, when I think about, so my wife and I, we've been married for 23 years. And I feel as if we act as stress guards, in essence.

7:29John Gottman:The guardrails against stress. Yes. Yes. Which, to me, stress is one of the number one enemies of life. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah. And of relationships. And of relationships. You're saying stress destroys? Yes, it can. It can. And we will get to that, definitely. So then, how do you define a successful relationship? Because you always hear people say, oh, we've been married 50 years, 40 years, therefore it's a success, but not really. So how do you define a successful? Happy and stable. It's really very simple and easy to measure. Okay. Except not happy all the time, because nobody is happy all the time.

8:11No, that's right. Not happy all the time.

8:14John Gottman:You know, I have a little more detailed view of it, which is based on our research, actually, and our theory. First of all, you have to really want to know the other person and keep knowing them as they change over time. And you need to also feel known by your partner. That's important. You need to feel cared for, respected, and admired by your partner. That's really important for each other. You need to know that if you seek attention from your partner, most of the time you're going to receive it. Your partner isn't going to just, nah, leave me alone, I don't want to talk to you. You need to basically give your partner the benefit of the doubt.

9:07John Gottman:So if they're really grouchy at breakfast, you know, and God, you shouldn't run the microwave if there's nothing in it. Well, you think to yourself, if you're in a positive attitude, positive perspective towards your partner, you think, ah, they must have had a bad night of sleep. Or they've got, you know, they're really scared because they have a difficult meeting today. Then you can manage conflict well. It's not about eliminating it. A lot of people think if you solve all your fights and all your conflicts, that means you have a good marriage. No, it doesn't. Because, you know, most people have conflicts and many of those conflicts are perpetual, right?

9:50John Gottman:Sixty-nine percent of the problems that couples face between each other are perpetual. They never go away. Which is amazing. You know, it's interesting. I think out of a relationship, I would say, I don't get that, but being married. Now you got it. Now you got it. Yep, 23 years and the same issues keep coming up. So, you know, they're based on either differences in lifestyle preference or personality differences. Yeah, well, we all have those, right? Sure. Another marker of a successful relationship is that you feel like your own personal dreams are going to be at least respected and honored and supported.

10:33John Gottman:You know, for example, I wanted to go to Mount Everest. Well, this boy wants to go to the living room. That's it. You know, and so, but he supported me, you know, in that adventure, though, you know, it's a nightmare for him. That was amazing to me. That was fantastic. And last but not least, you need to have a sense of shared meaning. And what I mean by that is not that you have the same sense of meaning and purpose, but that you can talk about it. You can share it with your partner. That's really important at a deeper level. Yes. So then what percentage? I feel like every time I'm going to data, I'm going to come to you.

11:18I've seen you so much. It's interesting. You have these beautiful anecdotal stories, right? And then John is like, here's what the data says. I know. It's like the perfect partnership. But what does the data say in terms of what percentage are satisfied? Yeah, it's a really great question. You know, of course, you know, when you measure it, you always get a bell curve, you know. Which is what? You know, the normal curve, which is this, you know, most people are in the middle, right? And then there are the ends. And so most people would say, based upon that, about 35 % of all marriages are happy, stable marriage, 35%.

12:01But I think it's much higher than that. I think it's closer to 75%, 80%. Really?

12:10John Gottman:Not by the normal curve. It'd be 50%. I know. But I think that the reality is better than the measure. He's an optimist. Does the data show that? I think so. Okay. Fair enough. I think most people are pretty happy. You have both gotten me into quite a bit of trouble. And I'll tell you why. It's the six-second kiss has gotten me into trouble. What? Is it a peck on the cheek? Whoops. So it's funny. This morning, because my wife was so excited that I was coming to interview you both today. So the first thing I did is I woke up. I gave her a six-second kiss. Yes. And she said, I know why you did that.

12:51Does that mean I'm not doing that? Yes, I do. But the reason why you got me into trouble is because I was on a talk show, and I divulged the research that you did around this, and the clip went viral, viral. And there were three camps of responders behind this. One camp said, what? Everyone is doing this. This is ridiculous. Like, of course everyone's doing a six-second kiss.

13:17John Gottman:And I thought, no, they're not. Count it. One, one thousand, two, one thousand, three. Yeah, it's long. It's long. There was another camp that said, if you are doing a six-second kiss, it means sex must be coming. And I thought, that's interesting that immediately your thought is that if that happens, that sex would then come after. And so I thought that was interesting. And then the other camp said, you know, what's the point to doing this? Oxytocin. Wow. And so what's your response across the board? Like what is this study, the six-second kiss? And then what's the response to all of those comments?

14:01Well, you know, there's an interesting book called The Science of Kissing. Hold on. Let me write this down. And they actually reviewed a study done in Germany that showed that men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live an average of five years longer than men who don't. And that's not a six-second kiss. It's just a peck on the cheek. Oh, really? Just a peck on the cheek. Okay. Five years longer of life. Now, 20-second hug results in oxytocin getting secreted. So Paul Zak's research on the trust game shows that if you spray oxytocin on people's nose, they contribute more in the trust game.

14:46They're more generous and more loving in this trust game. You get this fear reduction, you know, like in Jim Cohen's research where the amygdala is shut down. That's what oxytocin does. And all mammals secrete oxytocin with a 20-second hug or a six-second kiss. That's why it's so powerful. but even a peck on the cheek, five more years of life. Five more years of life, yeah.

15:09John Gottman:Go home and tell your wife. Doesn't have to be a six-second kiss to give you five more years of life. Yeah, and also how you describe the research is it's mutual benefit. Right. So you're getting that. Your partner's getting that as well. That's right. That's right. It's a win. Yeah. Even if you look into your chihuahua's eyes for six seconds, you both are secreting oxytocin. Really? Yeah, that's a mammal, a response of two mammals. That's interesting. We cuddle with our dog every morning. Oh, we do. He's such a sweetheart. Especially if we're kissing, he's right there. Like a kid, right in between.

15:49How conscious are you two about the research in terms of applying the research to your marriage? We do it. You do? We do it very consciously.

15:59John Gottman:All the time. Okay, six-second kiss, you're trying to do that daily. I mean, John looks like he wants to kiss you right now. I know. That's why I was disappointed we're so far apart. I tell you what, even now pivoting, I hate because this is such a warm, fuzzy space, now pivoting to conflict. The horrible stuff. What is the number one reason for fights in a relationship? Nothing. It's nothing. It's nothing. Most couples fight about absolutely nothing. Okay. So, you know, he's got the remote. Who's going to use the remote? He's got the remote and he's switching channels. And she says, leave it on that one.

16:43He says, just a minute. Let me see what else is on. She says, no, leave it on that channel. He says, no, let me see what else is on. And she says, I said, leave it. And he says, you know, have it your way, damn it. And she said, I don't even want to watch television with you. You're such a jerk. What do they fight about? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. That's right.

17:07John Gottman:No, you need to put the dishes in the dishwasher this way. Not that way. That's going to waste space. But isn't it something to someone? That's right. It is. Yeah, sure. Yes. Sure, sure. You know, so most of it really are these failed bids for connection, you know, that they just don't go right. Okay. And it seems like the conflict emerged out of nothing, out of thin air, out of the blue, right? And you can put it in categories and say, well, you know, it's about money or it's about sex or it's about in-laws or, you know. Kids. Yeah, kids. But most fighting really isn't about topics like that.

17:49So is it more so about how we manage the fight, right? Because you mentioned 69 % of conflict won't be resolved. That's right. It won't be. And I think if you even approach your relationship that way, you become empowered. Absolutely. But it's how you go about that. So what are the different conflict styles to manage the conflict?

18:13John Gottman:Well, you know, there are basically three different styles of managing conflict that we've seen in couples in research, and they all work. They're all okay. So there's avoidant conflict, so they avoid conflicts. They may agree to disagree or they'll just, nah, let's not talk about that. That's not a big deal. You know, they'll minimize it. They're not bringing out the conflict and really hashing it over. Okay. So they agree to disagree. That's conflict avoiders. The second are people that we call validators. And they will express some of their emotion, but not super passionately and intensely.

18:59John Gottman:You know, they'll just be very calm, kind of rational, and they'll move very quickly into problem solving. But, you know, there's a little bit of emotion that's expressed on each side. And finally, there are couples that we call volatiles, here I am, that are passionate and intense and express their emotion like right off the bat and really, really intensely and it's very heated and so on. And they do just fine too. Mixed couples. One's a validator and one's a volatile. Right. Like you? I'm the avoider. I'm an avoider and she's a volatile. Oi, what are you going to do? But as long as there is a five-to-one ratio of positive to negative or in conflict, all styles work.

19:46Is that the golden conflict? That's the golden conflict ratio. That's right. Okay. So as long as it's five-to-one but in a positive relationship. Five times more positive than negative. Than negative.

19:57John Gottman:Well, it's just so the 5 to 1 ratio is just describing the 15-minute conflict conversation you're having and how many positive exchanges are there or expressions of emotion compared to expressions of negativity. Within the 15 minutes. Within that 15 minutes. Okay. You see. So positivity can be just, you know, like that. It can just be a nod of the head. That's positive. Yeah, good point. Yeah, right. Or, oh, that's great. You know, that kind of stuff. That's all the positive stuff. It's just making eye contact and smiling if the other person makes a joke. That's positive. But it feels really different, sir.

20:45It's kind of like if you had a salt shaker, and the salt shaker contained all the ways you could be agreeable. You could say, hmm, good point, interesting. And you sprinkle that through the whole interaction. That's what a good relationship looks like. Whereas if you have a soul shaker, then all the ways you can disagree and say, no, that's wrong, ridiculous, sprinkle that through in the interaction, that's an unhappy marriage. Interesting. So we should be very conscious. Now I'm going to be even ultra-conscious now. Just to be as positive as you can. Positive doesn't mean you agree with your partner.

21:21It means you're kind of saying, oh, tell me more about that. That's interesting. That's interesting. Oh, good point. Wow. Really? You think that? You know, those little things. Help me understand that.

21:32John Gottman:Help me understand that. And those things sprinkle through. Now it seems like you're both working on the same problem together. It's like you're pushing in the same direction. And if you want to hear the full unfiltered stories from today's guest, you can check them out on the We Need to Talk page. Drop a like, leave a comment, and hit subscribe. See you next week. Thank you.