Am I a Patient Mom? Or a Punching Bag?

13:53Heidi Hamels:Love a pajama outing. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 percent less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Quince has become a destination for essentials across home, kitchen, bedding and beyond. Whatever your needs, you can find elevated quality goods at Quince.

14:18Eileen O'Connell:Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash fresh for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

14:27Heidi Hamels:That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash fresh for free shipping and 365 day returns.

14:35Eileen O'Connell:Quince.com slash fresh. After an afternoon at the pool, my mom's skin needs a hydration reset. The perfect solution? Osea's Undaria Algae Body Oil. It has an amazing citrus scent and a non-greasy texture, so my skin feels silky smooth and stays that way.

14:55Heidi Hamels:Osea is clean, clinically tested skincare from the sea, so you can see and feel the difference from just one use. The Ondaria Algae Body Oil is seaweed-infused and clinically shown to visibly improve elasticity and deeply moisturize.

15:13Eileen O'Connell:In an independent study of 53 women, after two weeks, 100 % of them agreed their skin looked firmer with Andaria Algae Body Oil. And 100 % agreed their skin felt softer, smoother, and more supple.

15:27Heidi Hamels:Friends, I've got all the women in my life on the Osea train. Osea's award-winning Andaria Algae Body Oil is for skin that deserves more than lotion. And right now, we have a special discount just for you. Get 10 % off your first order site-wide with code FRESH at OSEAMALIBU.COM. That's code FRESH at O-S-E-A-MALIBU.COM. Oh, Amy, between swimming and sweating, summer is basically bad hair season at my house. But we found a solution. It's Nutrafol.

16:03Eileen O'Connell:Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist-recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer-reviewed, NSF-certified for sport, and clinically tested.

16:18Heidi Hamels:And what I love is it's not a one-size-fits-all approach. Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause. And lifestyle factors such as a plant-based diet. so you get the support that's right for you.

16:38Eileen O'Connell:Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster-growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code LAUGHING.

16:55Heidi Hamels:That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com. Promo code LAUGHING. As your kids get more verbal, this phenomenon gets, I think, so much trickier. I think all parents of teens have had the experience where a very overstimulated, overtired, underfed, whatever it is, teen is like, you've never loved me. This has never been a good house. like everyone thinks I'm a loser like they'll go to the bottom of the suitcase and start pulling stuff out and then I'm then up for the next 24 hours being like what does this portend like where did I go wrong everything is darkness and then the next morning when they've had enough sleep or gotten a good meal they're like yeah what's up and I'm like well what's up I was up all night worrying yeah I thought we were at the end of the road in the dark place that we would never come back from?

17:56Heidi Hamels:Like, what's up? That's what's up with me. I don't know what's up with you. But with me, what's up is still being in this place where you perceive yourself as, you know, a total loser who no one loves. And, you know, I've been thinking all night about camps that you could go like, what? And I do think that is something the longer I'm a parent, the more I realize like, oh it's like the t-shirt gun full of trash directly into your face it gets me very emotionally riled up and then the kid often is like and scene all set i'm done great job i did it that's exactly

18:38Eileen O'Connell:what lisa demore says that what we have to remember and we catch ourselves that for the adolescent unloading this emotional energy onto you by telling you the worst person in the world or everybody hates me, whatever it is, is a remedy. You're up all night thinking about camps and they're sleeping great because they feel better. They don't know they're doing this, right? But they're discharging. They're touching you and they shock you with their static electricity. And now that static is discharged. They hot potato it to you and now you're holding it. Like what, what just happened? And like, well, I can't believe they said that to me or I can't believe there's oh no like we're at uh you know nine out of ten terribleness i i have to find them a new school and then they're fine and then the next time lisa demore tells the story about she called her mother from college that she was unhappy and called her the next morning and her mother sounded really weird she's like hi you know she she had a conversation with her mother then like somebody knocked on her dorm door and like she went and got ice cream you know had a good night's sleep talked to her mother the next day she sounded terrible she said mom what's wrong And her mother was like, I was up all night worrying about you after our conversation last night.

19:42Eileen O'Connell:And she was like, oh, 12 hours ago. Right. Because she's an adolescent. Right. Highs, lows, highs, lows, highs, lows. And you're stuck, particularly when they P.S. didn't say I just have I'm having difficulty finding my way. And instead did something that we call projection. They projected feelings onto you. So let's talk about projection, because this is definitely something that like grownups do, too. Yes, this is what's happening. So we all externalize our emotions. Again, we're not aware we're doing this usually by projecting. Projection is how our own nervous systems protect us from feeling vulnerability or shame or things that are uncomfortable.

20:23Rather than confronting that, it feels safer for your nervous system to see those flaws in somebody else.

20:32Eileen O'Connell:So, you know, you're fighting with your partner and you might say like, you're so withdrawn. And really, it's like you're withdrawn and it's their reaction. You know what I mean? Like, you're clearly in a bad mood today. That's projection. Right. Somebody's in a bad mood, but they're like making oatmeal. What? Not sure it's me. That's projection. Like, I'm feeling this and I can't admit that it's me. So it's you. It's your fault. And so, obviously, adolescents who are more immature are much more likely to project their emotions onto you. And it's easier for them. You are easy. Mom is a safe place.

21:03Eileen O'Connell:So it's easier for them to pick that fight with you than stay in this emotional state that they would rather not have.

21:09Heidi Hamels:I was just thinking about this the other day. I had just like a two-day episode of like depression, that like bad, dark, everything's bad. Everything always has been bad. Up until now, I was rose-colored glasses, like the real, not sad, depression. Like it's a different feeling and I could feel it in my body. and I could not believe how bad it felt. I mean, I just kept thinking like it felt like having my hand in a vice. I mean, it feels so bad in your body. Now that I think I may be in a place of my life where I'm fairly emotionally regulated all the time, I used to feel, I used to be, my mother used to say, you'll never know the joy of an unexpressed emotion.

21:54Heidi Hamels:But I mean, I was such a moody kid and a moody teen for sure. But it really took me back for a minute of like, oh, wow, this feels as bad as physical pain. I forget that when I'm not in it. How bad it feels to feel embarrassed. It just is a physical ache. It's so awful. I was like, I'm more sympathetic to people being awful when they feel this way because it feels so bad. Yeah.

22:24Eileen O'Connell:So it's unconscious. But when you're projecting or when your adolescent or your four year old is projecting onto you, they're making you feel their agitation. You're not just understanding it intellectually. They're kicking your legs like, ow, my leg hurts. You're going to stop that. And now you've met them on their field of agitation and they have successfully hot potatoed the anger, stress, whatever over to you. Again, they don't necessarily, they would never know they're doing this and it would never be a good idea. Skipping ahead to what works. It's not a good idea to be like, you're projecting on like, this is clearly about something else and you're projecting onto me.

23:01Eileen O'Connell:Like, even if you know that's true, that'd be a great thing for you to figure out in the moment. But yeah, don't try to explain that in the moment. You don't know that you're doing it. They don't know that they're doing it to you. And it's also very hard in the moment, speaking from experience, to recognize it in the moment, right? When you're being told, you're actually the worst parent in the world. It's like, what? You know, I have to defend myself, right? This is like, I'm on the witness stand. I have to shut this down. You can't talk to me like that. What do you mean when I just did these 42 things for you?

23:28Eileen O'Connell:That's not useful either, P.S. But it is so clear when you take a step back later, right? That it's really about something else. But in the moment, neither your kid nor you know that they're projecting onto you.

23:41Heidi Hamels:But I have a question about that. And I feel like this is a conversation we've been having for a long time. I feel like my tolerance for being disrespected in my house is extremely low. And I have seen the downsides of that for sure. That like you used to say to me on the podcast, you don't have to accept every invitation to a fight, right? Like if the kid is upstairs being like this stupid house, I don't have to run upstairs, swing the door open and be like, I heard that. I heard every word of that. Right, right. And my house is not stupid and you're rude. you know? So I have recalibrated that to a certain degree, but I also still feel strongly that like, I mean, my kids will laugh about this, that like, they'll see another kid be like, mom, shut your stupid face.

24:29Heidi Hamels:And they look at me like, I can't even imagine what would happen if I said those words to you, you know, like they would never, let me give a simple example. My kids would never curse at me. They would never be like, F you mom, ever. And that's just how I was raised. I don't think I could take that out of the equation if I tried. And I think there's a lot of upsides. But I also wonder, is then the flip side that I'm not giving them the space to project and express themselves?

24:59Eileen O'Connell:I don't know. It is a balance, and I'm trying to figure out what this is. This is a really helpful metaphor. More Lisa DeMora for you. Really helpful. This really helped me. Imagine that you're a kid in a swimming pool. And when kids are learning to swim, they touch the wall a lot, right? When they're first learning to swim, they might hold onto the wall the whole time. I had a nephew that spent the whole afternoon in the pool just holding onto the side and walking up and down. Okay, they do that. And they do a little bit, they come back. They do a little bit, they come back. Then you get to be a better swimmer.

25:28Eileen O'Connell:And maybe you're in the middle of the pool with all your friends. And you might go back to the wall. Like if somebody dunks you two or three times and it wasn't that funny, you might go back to the wall for a little reset. And then you're going to push off the wall and go back to your friends. We are the wall. So the parent is the wall and the kid is the swimmer. and the kid needs to come back to the wall after they get dunked, Lisa DeMoor says. They're coming back to the wall. They're holding on the wall for a second, but then they need to push off the wall to go back to their peers. And so she says the push off the wall, that's the mean comment or the thing out of nowhere or the petty fight.

26:01Eileen O'Connell:I hate the stupid house. That is them pushing off the wall, which is hard for them to do because they have to do the work of differentiating from you and they have mixed feelings about being able to do that and wanting to do that. And so they have to, you know, there's a little force involved that that's why they do it. They're pushing off the wall. And I don't think that mom should be a punching bag. But if I can reframe these moments as pushing off the wall, then maybe the fight doesn't get that high in the first place. So maybe you don't respond and then it doesn't turn into a fight. If you're just like, that was uncalled for.

26:33Eileen O'Connell:Huh. But I get stuck on like, they need to understand they can't do that to people in the world. Right. You can't talk to anybody like that. So why would you talk to me like that? I'm not sure that they don't really know that.

26:43Heidi Hamels:I guess that water finds its level to a certain degree. So in my household, this looks like you cannot wear a bikini top and shorts to your school concert. And the reaction to that is like a big door slam and sighing. But if my kid was like, yes, I can, you idiot, it would be a whole different ballgame. Like, we're not going to the concert now. And like, yeah, I guess people have to find their own lines. And I have no skin in the game of judging other parents. But I do not think that letting your kid kick you for five to six minutes pretty hard and ignoring it is a good strategy.

27:29Eileen O'Connell:I think that the modern 2020s parenting thing would be like you look at them, you make eye contact and say, I won't let you hit me. Right. But then what happens when they do it? Then he hauls off and kicks you again. What do you do?

27:41Heidi Hamels:Yeah, and it really has nothing to do with this one particular mom because maybe she has a practice that she's figuring out isn't working in the target line or whatever. Right. I'm not like, I found a bad parent and I want to put her on blast at all. No, no, no. But I think I value boundaries more than expression because I'm like an old Irish hag, basically. I don't know. I just think that for me, my mom used to say, you want to keep your boundaries tighter than you want them because then the kids feel like they're going outside the boundaries. But they want to feel that warm hug of boundaries being like, I know there's a line and I can find it.

28:22Heidi Hamels:And I think sometimes when I see things that have gone more off the rails, what I see is a kid who I look at and I think they are begging you to show them where the line is. Here it is. They are begging you to say. And listen, I think it's a great thing that in our era, we are more accepting of all sorts of things that my grandparents would have punched their kids in the face for. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You know, slapping a four-year-old who's crying, it's like that's an insane thing to do. It has no benefit. It has huge downsides. But there is still a spectrum, and I think the end of the spectrum that is our job is to respect, understand, and process our kids' emotions.

29:17Heidi Hamels:I get it. I'm for it. as long as it doesn't cross boundaries.

29:24Eileen O'Connell:It's something productive. I did want to make the point that that kid behaving in the target, right? Throwing a tantrum and even kicking the mother. Like, we're not saying that four-year-old is going to be trouble if X-Y's eight, right? Like that's a four-year-old, four-year-olding. And you don't want the mom's, you know, leg to get bruised in the meantime. You want to diffuse the situation. But Lisa DeMore would say that kids need to do this. They need to come back to the wall and then they need to push off the wall with some force. and that you don't want a kid who never leaves the wall the whole time at the pool.

29:53Eileen O'Connell:And you don't want a kid who never comes to the wall at all. You want that balance and there's going to be friction. And then the problem is you're left feeling bad. You're left holding the emotional garbage. You're left feeling bad that your kid said these things to you and, oh, whatever, they didn't mean it. And mom is, you know, you have to be their safe space. But you're still left holding this feeling bad about yourself. So after this break, I want to talk about then what do we do? How do we make this feel better for ourselves? Yes. being a mom means putting other people's feelings and needs above your own pretty much 100 of the time but our own needs and feelings matter they need attention that's why there's therapy which is something anyone can benefit from no matter what their current situation is and that is why

30:35Heidi Hamels:there's rula rula provides in-network covered mental health care for most major insurance plans The average copay for Rula patients is$15. And depending on your benefits, your copay could be$0 per session.

30:50Eileen O'Connell:Rula partners with a network of over 23 ,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, enabling you to find the right therapist based on your needs, preference, and state requirements.

31:01Heidi Hamels:Rula is committed to helping you reach your therapy goals by carefully screening providers, monitoring quality of care, and supporting your progress throughout your journey. With a diverse set of licensed, experienced professionals, they make it easy to get the care you need.

31:17Eileen O'Connell:Take it from us, therapy is worth it. And thousands of parents are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance and helping them and their families. And so can you. Visit Rula.com slash WFH to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash WFH. You know, it's that time of year when I'm usually driving with two pairs of glasses, my prescription glasses, plus regular sunglasses over them, because otherwise I'll burn my retinas. But this year I gave myself a summertime glow up with new prescription sunglasses from Zenni.

31:54Heidi Hamels:I love this for you, Amy. At Zenni.com, you can get prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, all starting at under$30. Go to Zenni.com, pick a frame, upload your prescription, and they'll ship it to your door. No appointment, no going to the store, no upsell at the counter.

32:12Eileen O'Connell:I also used Zenni's virtual try-on to see exactly how my new tortoiseshell square sunglasses would look on my face before I ordered them. Let me tell you, they looked super cute on the virtual try-on and super cute in person. And with frames at under$30, I got a second pair just because.

32:30Heidi Hamels:If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order.

32:43Eileen O'Connell:These styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's zenni.com slash podcast, promo code podcast15.

32:57Heidi Hamels:And now, rules for moms. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. It is vitally important to spend lots of quality time with your children.

33:09Eileen O'Connell:So crucial.

33:10Heidi Hamels:But please note not so much time that you smother them. God, no.

33:16Eileen O'Connell:You don't want to become one of those helicoptering freaks. Ugh. How gross. Quick question, where are you in terms of college prep for your kid? What do you mean you haven't thought about it? But is your kid 12? You're way behind.

33:30Heidi Hamels:It's likely because you're too busy at your job to make time for what's really important.

33:36Eileen O'Connell:Or it could be because you stayed home and never modeled the value of independence.

33:40Heidi Hamels:Whatever the cost, it's super important right now to stay focused. Give your kids your all and they will thrive.

33:48Eileen O'Connell:But you must be sure not to give your kids too much or you'll completely rob them of grit. And kids without grit are awful.

33:57Heidi Hamels:Ugh, the worst. That's why it is so key to foster a strong sense of self-esteem and ability to do for themselves. I'm sorry, what?

34:08Eileen O'Connell:You let your kids play unsupervised? That's a little thing we call negligence.

34:14Heidi Hamels:Side note, please do not brag about your kids' accomplishments on social media. Uh, so embarrassing. It's not all about you, mom. Please also be aware that any negative outcomes for your child are, in fact, completely your fault. We hope that's clear.

34:30Eileen O'Connell:This has been Rules for Moms. From the What Fresh Health podcast. So I thought we would talk about once this happens, once you're told you're the worst mother in the world and you say to your kid, you come back here right now and they don't. What do you do? There are strategies, I think, in the moment and there are strategies after the moment to sort of diffuse in the moment and make yourself feel better afterwards. So strategies in the moment, focusing on curiosity about where this is really coming from, like the iceberg that when your kid is out of nowhere saying, I hate you and I hate this house.

35:02Eileen O'Connell:There's something there that they are unwilling or unable to articulate no matter how old they are. Right. And trying to put your focus on, hmm, I wonder what's really going on here.

35:14Heidi Hamels:Not the words. Like, don't say that to me after all I've done for you. But something must be really making you hot to say that. Yes.

35:22Eileen O'Connell:So Nancy Collier, she's a psychotherapist. She says in these situations, you draw the conversation away from the you based storyline, the mom based storyline. Like you are actually the worst parent in the world. Like, OK, they're expressing distress or they're handing you their emotional trash. Draw the conversation away from that and go more towards the feelings and the suffering and make it clear that you can see that they're upset. You understand you see what's happening. Like, I see how upset you are, but you don't bite the hook, which she defines as engaging in a battle over who's to blame for them feeling this way.

35:55Eileen O'Connell:Right. That I agree with. That you say less when it's really like this is hard for me. You stop talking. You don't defend yourself. You don't like after all I've done for you. You don't set the record straight. I'm sorry. I got in a fight with one of my kids recently where I was summoned to discuss something like I was in bed and I get a text. Did we do this yet? And come, you know, and I'm like, oh, I'll do it. You know, come to the kitchen to discuss it. And then, you know, five minutes later, I'm being told that I'm being ridiculous. And I'm like, I was literally summoned to have this conversation.

36:26Eileen O'Connell:And then as soon as it gets a little bit overwhelming, you know, why are you like this? And I'm like, right. I was in bed. But but really, you know, it was like it's just overwhelmed. Sir, this is a Wendy's. Right. And in the moment, I'm like, do you understand? Like you started this conversation and asked me to have it with you and I'm having it. Now you're mad at me. No, they didn't. They didn't. They were in red brain and me trying to talk myself out of being in the hot seat wasn't going amazing. It didn't go amazingly, as it turned out. Crazy. Yeah. So leave the house if you have to leave the room if they're literally leave the house.

36:59Eileen O'Connell:like separate yourself, like put a wall. I don't think you stand there and take it. I don't. But I think that you instead of feeling bad, instead of fighting, it's OK to just leave. And maybe that's the boundary. Sharon Selby says this is a counselor and parenting facilitator. She was quoting Lisa Demore's pushing off the wall metaphor. And she said, it's not OK for your child to be disrespectful. They do need you to be a strong swimming pool and remind them of that.

37:22Heidi Hamels:Well, I'm much more I feel like I'm a little bit on that end of like and I have had conversations with my kids because I think I do overcorrect on this a little bit that I have said to my kids, there's nothing that's too scary to say out loud, including, I hate you. I wish I was born in a different family. I don't fit in here. I want to hurt myself sometimes. Whatever it is, there is nothing too scary to say out loud. And I want you to understand that. And to that degree, You can say the scary thing, but you really can't in my house come and start cursing in my face. Like that's never going to be allowed in my house.

38:02Heidi Hamels:The swimming pool metaphor, I get it a little bit, but I'm not sure. I also think it like brings out the feminists in me. I'm just not sure I need to be the place where you dump your trash. Like Rebecca Wolf, who wrote a blog a while back called Girls Gone Child, said her mom called it the keeper of the umbrella. Like when you're out, you could always come to me and get an umbrella. Like if you need it. I believe Rihanna said that as well. I believe she expressed that. Umbrella, Ella, Ella. But yeah, like you can come to me for help and you can come to me with your frustration. and I can recognize your frustration, but I'm not sure you can just come to me, dump a bunch of trash on me and then go back to the middle of the pool.

38:52Heidi Hamels:I don't think I'm okay with that.

38:53Eileen O'Connell:Well, I think that when I'm saying like, sometimes you just need to leave. You just need to like extinguish the flame because you can't talk yourself out of it. You can't force them to get out of Redbrain right now and listen, it doesn't work, but you can leave. Then I think, yeah, that is not being the pool because the pool is this like, I must contain. I must be the container of everything and I must not leave, right? And I think you can leave.

39:14Heidi Hamels:You don't have to be the wall all the time. I think it's emotion and behavior and always making those distinctions. It is 100 % fine to feel like you hate everyone in this family. All of my kids have expressed that at different times. It is not okay to scream that at us because it's very hurtful and we will have a conversation about what's going on. you know one of my kids was going away with another family member was like I'm sorry to say this but I cannot wait to get away from all of you I was like oh that's very understandable I feel that sometimes too like it's okay to express any emotion even if it feels scary or dark or ugly but it is not okay to express it through bad behavior and that for me is a big line of like you actually cannot come over to the side of the wall and dump trash on me I don't know if it's good parenting or bad parenting, but it is like deep in my cells.

40:11Heidi Hamels:Like you will not just hand me your trash because you're having a bad day.

40:16Eileen O'Connell:But don't they do it anyway sometimes?

40:17Heidi Hamels:I mean, they do. They definitely do. And like the door slamming and stuff, I'm kind of like, yeah, whatever. You know, bye.

40:26Eileen O'Connell:That's like me leaving the room. Like, I'm not going to listen to you do this. If they go upstairs and slam the door and I can hear them through the floor being like, she's the worst. Like they left. That's fine. The fire line has been established and let's just reset because that does work you can come back the next day or in 20 minutes like nothing happened because guess what that teenager that just blew up at you feels a lot better now yes they've discharged their energy they're not like it sometimes feels like oh no like what's it going to be like when they come downstairs tomorrow and they it is it is at least for them a nice reset that they feel much better now now you have to you know process that for yourself And that's not fair, but it's part of being a parent, I think, to some extent.

41:05Heidi Hamels:Doesn't mean it happens every day. I mean, we always had a rule in my house that you were not allowed to have a tantrum on the ground floor of the house. Like, I mean, if you were upset about something, fine. But like at a certain point, like if you're going to carry on, go up to your room and have a tantrum because the rest of us are actually trying to enjoy dinner. I'm not saying this is good parenting, but like I just feel like you can feel however you want. You can express that feeling by slamming doors, punching pillows. You can express that feeling by saying, I can't even be around you right now and slamming your door.

41:43Heidi Hamels:But for me, you cannot walk in the door and be like, don't even look at me with your stupid face. Like that would not fly in my house. It just would not fly. And I'm not saying this because I'm like, this is the right way to do it. Like, it's definitely making me think of like, am I giving my kids enough outlet to express negative emotions? It's worth thinking about.

42:08Eileen O'Connell:It's all painful, too, right? Like, to be told you're the worst parent in the world when they're five, you know, they don't really mean it. And they get older and they're like, no, no, I mean it. Kids can be cruel, even if they're just stomping around. I hate this. Like, it still creates in you, I think, even if it's not. If it's personal, that's painful. If it's not personal, it's still like I'm jingle jangle from the amount of negative emotion that this person is bringing into the house. And then they're expressing it a different way. But it's still like it can feel a little toxic. And I don't want to underplay how hard it can be.

42:40Eileen O'Connell:So Suzanne Schnapp, she's a psychologist. She said, find the other people in your life. Have your good friend, your partner, your sister, your mom, whoever it is. call them and talk to them and be honest with them about how awful it made you feel because it can make you feel awful and i just think sometimes we blow past that too like you have to understand you're their safe space like well where's the part for like i feel terrible about what happened i'm not interested in that you deserve a place for that but that place is not your kid while

43:10Heidi Hamels:they're doing it to you and i also think that in partnership this can be really helpful like I am not going to listen to you talk to your father that way and I am not going to listen to you like you are speaking to my beloved husband and that you're not going to speak to him that way in front of me you know and I also think acknowledging I think now with teens we're dealing with a lot of like you have to be home at 11 o 'clock but the other kids moms let them stay out until three. And it's like, you're so strict and annoying. And it's like, yes, I own that. I am more strict than the other moms.

43:48Heidi Hamels:What a bummer for you. You know, sorry. Also, we're late 16 days out of the year because I am very disorganized. Like, I'm sorry you did not get the mom who gets you to school every day on time. And I'm sorry that you didn't get the mom who lets you stay out until four o 'clock in the morning. But this is the mom you got, guys.

44:06Eileen O'Connell:Yeah. And I think it's important to go back to what you were saying before about your parenting partner backing you up. I think that's great. And I think it's important, as you said, to make sure it's going both ways, because I think it can be a little bit of a trap of you, the mother, get the double barreled invective of terrible stuff. Then you're upset. And then, you know, if you have a male partner, they're saying to your kids now when you talk to you, can you not talk to your mother like that? Because she's sensitive. It turns into like your poor, weak mother. You can't talk to her like that.

44:36Eileen O'Connell:Yeah, she can't handle it. Right. Instead of nobody talks to anybody like that in this house. And I have tried with my extremely supportive partner, like, please don't make it about my emotional inability to handle this. Like it's intolerable behavior to and from anyone. It isn't about now do you see how upset you've made your mother? You know what I mean? Because then it's just like your weak emotions are the problem.

44:57Heidi Hamels:And part of the fight I was actually having with my husband was, did you notice that for the whole weekend while we had 18 people in our house, I was the person who was like kids come set the table kids come clear the table I need somebody to do the vacuuming like did you notice that the only person who disciplined or involved the kids at all was me because I definitely noticed it and the kids definitely noticed it and then it's mom so uptight and dad so fun that can be a part of the iceberg that has to be solved too that like hey fun Bobby like maybe when you look around and something needs done and my husband is a little bit of a gold star guy.

45:37Heidi Hamels:So he likes to be like, I can do it all myself. And I'm like, the kids should be helping with this. They're teenagers. So you're not getting the gold star for doing it all when I'm getting kicked in the teeth for being like, hey, guys, I need you to come help clean this room and get it ready. And, you know, we're going to move furniture around because we have so many people here. And hey, husband, did you notice that that happened 25 five times. It was always led by me. And that puts me in the position of being like, mom's so boring and dad's so fun. And guess what? I don't love it. It's such a good point.

46:11Eileen O'Connell:And it expands it beyond you are their emotional safe space. It's like you are probably the one that is more often primary parent, making them do the stuff they don't want to do and being in charge of all the stuff that's annoying and less interesting than your phone. You know, you're the one who knows that this has to be done by this time. And if you're keeping all of that, then of course, They're going to give you more guff because you're making them do stuff that's not fun.

46:35Heidi Hamels:And it gives you an outlet when the kid texts you. You go to the kitchen. It's a fight. You do have an ability to say then, you know what? This isn't going well between the two of us. I'll have your dad come down and help.

46:45Eileen O'Connell:Yeah.

46:46Heidi Hamels:It's just like there's more options for like who can be in charge and then who can be the villain. That's right.

46:53Eileen O'Connell:Including your kid as the kids get older. And that's part of this work, too. Like, OK, you don't like how I'm in charge of this. I don't have to be in charge of this at all. It's not one and done, but it is. It's literally the work of what they're doing. It's why they're pushing off the wall in the first place. Yes. You want to individuate for me more quickly than you are? Like, OK, let's give this a try. Let's see how it goes. Absolutely. Suzanne Schnapp says, if you can react productively 80 % of the time, you deserve an award. No parent can ignore their kid's mean behavior all the time. You have got to give yourself some slack.

47:24Eileen O'Connell:Thank you, Dr. Schnapps. Thank you for that validation.

47:28Heidi Hamels:Absolutely. And just to be clear, I am not trying to imply in anything I've said in this episode that my kids don't act like total beasts to me a lot of the time. I just think I have a lower floor and then maybe the fights are more intense on the lower floor.

47:44Eileen O'Connell:Yeah, I feel like this isn't a problem. And then all of a sudden it is, right? Here it is. Sometimes it's contagious, too. Sometimes one kid's like, oh, is this like, is this an option?

47:55Heidi Hamels:Oh, we're doing mom's fault. I love Mom's fault. Mom's fault is the best. It's the best game. And especially if it's three against one. That's right. You got to push back against that. No, I'm pushing off the wall. Push off that wall, Amy. Push. And I'm sorry for the lady at Target if you're listening. I'm sure you were just having a horrible day and I do not judge you. I love you. How many hundreds of times a week do you think that happens at Target?

48:18Eileen O'Connell:Like that must be every Target every day. Every Target every day. Thank you, Target, for being the place where it happens.

48:25Heidi Hamels:For even more What Fresh Hell, check out our newsletter.

48:29Eileen O'Connell:Amy, tell them where they can subscribe to our newsletter. Well, two easy places. In the show notes for this episode, bing, tap the link in the show notes where you're listening right now. Or go to whatfreshhellpodcast.com. You can sign up right there. It's a once a month newsletter that we send you cool links to stuff that we say like, here's a favorite episode. Here's some feedback we got. We also pull in links to some of the most interesting conversations from our very large Facebook group of like, say, like, what are the best swimmies to buy for your kid for the pool this summer? Like all kinds of discussions, important and minor.

49:02Eileen O'Connell:And we just give you like the best of the best. It's a rich text, guys.

49:06Heidi Hamels:Go sign up. And with that, we will talk to you next time. Thanks for listening.

49:10Eileen O'Connell:So long.

49:21Heidi Hamels:The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50 ,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals. Free samples. Zero pressure. Right now, get up to 50 % off with minimum purchase. Plus, get a free professional measure at Blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply.